hexed crest
Not enough lattice.. could use a reset event to take back the lattice from Rosa.. "copium"
#Mid Season Balance Patch
surreal cove
yes. they belong to the bruiser/tank meta
magic cloak
and yes
surreal cove
ok... but BB exsists.. so if they can tank without.. imagine tanking when on BB.. lmfao
real bolt
@haughty crown semi related to the topic,have you received any bug reports on viktor passive seemingly not working?(not sure if its the damage amp or reduce that is bugged)
haughty crown
fiery void
Idk why you think that invalidates my argument. Speed sets should be required for speed. Bloodbath should be tied to anti-cleave, not ANTI-DAMAGE
magic cloak
i wish this game would give me a fury keeneye furyedge
20k crystals worth of refreshing
still nothing
fiery void
Anti-damage is not fun
surreal cove
Idk why you think that invalidates my argument. Speed sets should be required fo...
huuuh....? Anti damge=anti cleave..
unless u want BB to work like lighthouse
fiery void
huuuh....? Anti damge=anti cleave..
Cmon, get a bit creative
real bolt
tested him a bit in rta,he should have insane damage reduction when low hp paired with bloodbath but hes squishy as hell
surreal cove
where freshold is required
fiery void
Theres many way to do it
haughty crown
@real bolt Unless people notify us through #ask-staff or ping or when I look at threads I won't be aware. 
magic cloak
Idk why you think that invalidates my argument. Speed sets should be required fo...
my guy what are u even saying
surreal cove
20k crystals worth of refreshing
im like 60k stam deep.. still aint got
fiery void
Other games have figured out anti-cleave. Not sure why its so controversial
real bolt
<@534797569566703616> Unless people notify us through <#1382946850365112320> or ...
ill prob test him more and report later then
haughty crown
Aight let me know
magic cloak
bb is quite literally anti cleave
fiery void
bb is quite literally anti cleave
In its current state, it is anti-damage
magic cloak
no it isn’t
fiery void
If you cannot see the difference, thats a you problem
magic cloak
if i don’t run cleave
i probably won’t even proc bloodbath
bloodbath is quite literally made as anti cleave
kek
mighty sigil
i probably won’t even proc bloodbath
You do
potent quest
As the guy said really noob anti cleave would be something like refuces maximum dmg you can take turn 1 to X
fiery void
Thats too low
magic cloak
ah yes
mighty sigil
It's 20%
potent quest
Bb is anti dmg
fiery void
Thats literally anti-damage
surreal cove
so increase threshold to 40%
magic cloak
eh
fiery void
so increase threshold to 40%
Agreed
magic cloak
increase threshold ig
mighty sigil
so increase threshold to 40%
No that's too much
Likely will be changed to 25%
Nothing more
arctic drift
Player agency is just an illusion of choice. You were always going to pick A, just making B look less like shit somehow makes people feel like they actually made some kind of profound decision when realistically there was never a choice to begin with
mighty sigil
That's the general sentiment from the high elo feedback chart
magic cloak
well in reality there is no point in any of us arguing since devs quite literally make decisions based on a. random number generator from the seems of things so oh well
game is a social experiment
patch notes for packs and crystals hits different
whilst game is ina. freefall with quitting players
😂
potent quest
That's the general sentiment from the high elo feedback chart
The prophet
potent quest
well in reality there is no point in any of us arguing since devs quite literall...
True XD
mighty sigil
The prophet
It's a Google survey bro 
potent quest
Yh i saw IT due to sean b
magic cloak
I used to have hope for this game
mighty sigil
haughty crown
magic cloak
Like
It gets to a point
Where you really start to think that they have somewhere in the hq sent to ruin the company
I’ve never seen so many baffling decisions in a. row
mighty sigil
It gets to a point
Dw bro after cn release game will be good for sure 
haughty crown
Let's not talk about the company decisions here guys please
magic cloak
it’s truly quite something
mighty sigil
Mb
magic cloak
Generational management
@haughty crown
about what u said about batsby being viable for cleave
u have any clips
or videos
of anyone using him with. real team as the main cleaver on count against a full bruiser
fiery void
In its ideal form, BB should actually be usable only for units that are not traditional tanks to survive and should proc under specific conditions. For example (please don't crucify me over this its just an idea), units at >90% hp take 75% less damage with BB
Modules should be conditional (like keeneye and momentum are very well designed) and shouldn't be a slap-on-everything kinda design
Right now the activation conditions for BB is too universal it is a must have for anything turn 2. But we dont have damage mitigation from units to compensate
potent quest
You have really good well thought Takes i have to admit
magic cloak
In its ideal form, BB should actually be usable only for units that are not trad...
Okay then what happens when you put it on tanks
arctic drift
It's just the Adamant/Aurius thing all over again. If we had units or shells with these effects it would be far more healthy than the overreliance of BB but as things stand now people will literally use BB until it's either changed or removed regardless of how many nerfs they end up throwing at it simply because the other options are always going to be worse
potent quest
Okay then what happens when you put it on tanks
Sets like this wouldnt be vialable on tanks
magic cloak
What’s your recommendation for me if I want to be first and go turn 1 but do t want to run swiftrush
fiery void
You're being obtuse. Speed should be tied to sets/stats. Anti-damage has no place in this game
Absurd damage in the form of revelation + some cleave units made anti-damage mandatory. Now that these have been nerfed somewhat, anti-damage is just dragging fights
You can be anti-cleave without requiring sets like BB
BB even from day 1 has been a poorly designed mechanic
royal surge
Absurd damage in the form of revelation + some cleave units made anti-damage man...
true damage which bypassed a lot of mitigation too
fiery void
Yeah you can see the Lushen problem in the game. Summoners War introduced a wind-element def ignore unit and it has defined arena defense viability for a better part of a decade. To this date, no such unit has ever been replicated again
fiery void
true damage which bypassed a lot of mitigation too
Massiah with def and passive ignore is actually a big problem
royal surge
i meant that it was (still is but to a lesser extent) a property of Revelation
fiery void
Yeah, which is why it was thoroughly unfun and quite frankly a move in the right direction
Like I said, the solution to "nothing dies" cannot be "everything dies"
surreal cove
guys.. we already came to a good conclusion that fits everyone.. Make bb activate at 30% instead of 20. .the end
plain gust
You guys must have insane substats if u can survive yeli with triple eff res
merry lantern
This quote is a great illustration of the reason why good designers don't ask users what they specifically want for a solution but instead find out what they want to accomplish. The only useful part is the end. Cleave as-was isn't necessarily required to achieve that result of diversity
arctic drift
Also other games have shown time and time again why cleave being too strong is actually the biggest detriment to player engagement for pvp. Cleave should be playable 100% but there should also be a lot more player agency to counter it as it is actually a very unhealthy playstyle for pvp when left unchecked.
Which is why cleave tends to have multiple different ways to draft it. As it stands currently ER cannot even deal with cleave having literally 2 dps without everything falling over if not on BB so it's honestly a lot better to fix the inherent issues with the game first then cleave second. Just bringing back cleave before then is only going to make the current issues even worse
mighty sigil
This is severely taken out of context
I wouldn't consider 6% of ppl as a lot of people
And the reason ppl hate bruiser matchups is because it stalls the game
Which can be easily changed by upping the timing of the etherena effect
thin mirage
Imho, META is slowly changing right now
Some units are still clearly tol strong but it's not really BB
Liliam shouldn't be able to equip BB Im almost certain of that but Massiah's damage is just untankable EVEN WITH BB
merry zephyr
That’s an interesting take about snipe
Haven’t heard of that before
100% agree about some sort of follow up or multihit punish unit
Agreed
I don’t get your point you keep bringing up about “oh you’re bringing down both sides”, while you literally just said the thing I’ve been trying to tell you the whole time
merry zephyr
Also other games have shown time and time again why cleave being too strong is a...
YES. This right here. Cleave is propped up by 2 dps, which is not nearly enough to make your draft interesting and varied enough for cleave to thrive while other strategies having counter play
surreal cove
YES. This right here. Cleave is propped up by 2 dps, which is not nearly enough ...
batby been cleaving poeple.. so far, dps units make up majority of the new banners
issue is rosa sucks without rev
and xiada is a ramp unit
bb blocks rilmocha
surreal cove
I don’t get your point you keep bringing up about “oh you’re bringing down both ...
i said alot. i dont think this agreed with majority of what you wrote or what i saw some others writing
potent quest
issue is rosa sucks without rev
Rev still exists
potent quest
bb blocks rilmocha
Rilmocha very good just people meta slave at top 10 rt
merry zephyr
i said alot. i dont think this agreed with majority of what you wrote or what i ...
Ok I’m not trying to argue with you needlessly too much. I genuinely am trying to understand your viewpoint here.
From my PoV I think there are a ton of inherent issues, regardless of what kind of meta we’re in, that need to be addressed (I.e. Kazuyo 2 turn sleep is a flaw that must go EVEN IF control were the most useless playstyle known to man). I really do not care what playstyle comes out on top in next patch as long as the current outliers and pain points are addressed.
Also I suggested that healing be reduced by 30% and BB nerfed slightly, while reverting Rahu and Holden buffs. I’m pretty certain if healing, etherna effect, and BB gets nerfed, pretty certain that bruisers will get significantly weaker and we won’t be in the meta we are today. So if you’re worried about what playstyle comes out on top, I think if they three changes get implemented we won’t be in a cancer bruiser meta.
robust halo
buff bloodbath please
random hatch
he can work together with the person who designed the liliam buffs
robust halo
what if they make a blood bath but for cc
random hatch
butt
merry zephyr
he can work together with the person who designed the liliam buffs
Ong
robust halo
robust halo
like if they buff blood bath where it reduce all damage to 100% damage reduction no one can lose or win the game
random hatch
i just wanna know what their speed checking methodology is
merry zephyr
robust halo
no more fighting only love
merry zephyr
^^^ speed checking methodology
merry zephyr
no more fighting only love
Love the profile pic btw
merry zephyr
do u guys check stuff with only 3L stat
Yeah
I don’t think anything with 2 subs is usable in this game sadly
Too little coin and too expensive to roll initial substats
random hatch
I don’t think anything with 2 subs is usable in this game sadly
can u get yellow sub
random hatch
with 2L stat?
merry zephyr
No
random hatch
Oh you said 4L
i said 3L 🙂
merry zephyr
I still check 3L
random hatch
but wondering if people only check 4L
ah ok
i have too many
can't even check them ;-;
random hatch
only checking 4L is a throw imo
random hatch
It’s got to be 3L with perfect subs
really?...
merry zephyr
Or near perfect
surreal cove
Ok I’m not trying to argue with you needlessly too much. I genuinely am trying t...
and as i said, if healing is reduced, bb nerfed, CLEAVE will dominate. Currently the game is BALANCED. BB stops cleave, CC stop BB, Cleave can stop both if well geared. Nerfing BB just means rev nerf was pointless, since rev will dominate again, which people already cried about... various people have said DPS deal too much damage, even through BB, so nerfing healing will just mean you can't outheal a cleaver.. So essentially, we go back to cleave meta which everyone cried about.. There are players currently making Cleave work even through BB.. It's just hard to do, which it should be, since cleave is always a premium way to play.. while bruiser/agro is standard. Making bb trigger at 30% instead of 20% is the only thing that will work here without gutting the set and balance
merry zephyr
Like missing 1 that I can roll into
merry zephyr
If it’s 4L with speed I always check
But if it’s off set, then if it misses one time on 4L it’s instant trash
random hatch
really?
merry zephyr
Highest speed is around 350 rn
random hatch
cuz 4L missing 1 roll is still 15 speed no?
merry zephyr
Tons of +9 - +12 spd gear on set
random hatch
I have a lot of good pieces rn
across the board for multiple openers tho?
cuz the end goal is to hae full +15 speed on like
merry zephyr
I would say I can support 3-4 330+ spd openers rn
merry lantern
Donate some Swiftrush middle left pieces to me with greater than +5 because I still don't have any
random hatch
Donate some Swiftrush middle left pieces to me with greater than +5 because I st...
the cylinders?
merry zephyr
But if I do that then no 350 spd unit
merry lantern
No clue, I only remember by location. Too many icons
random hatch
XD
i think same
holy shit
im fucking cooked
viper's is my second higher onset 3 matrix
fucking 6 speed
LOL
only the one kloss is wearing is 12
merry zephyr
and as i said, if healing is reduced, bb nerfed, CLEAVE will dominate. Currently...
Yeah exactly. I completely agree with you. Cleave WOULD dominate if those were the only 2 changes implemented. So if you’re following the logic here, that’s when the OP cleavers are working through the current absolutely busted version of BB need to be nerfed brought down to match the power level of other cleavers
broken ginkgo
with good set up you can already cleave most bruisers
merry zephyr
But if you nerf tankdown and nerf cleave, then control going untouched would make it the absolute dominant playstyle, and control in general has really broken and annoying stuff that should be addressed.
surreal cove
Yeah exactly. I completely agree with you. Cleave WOULD dominate if those were t...
huh? so nerf massiah and yeli? which just brings them in line the the current damage they are doing since BB will be nerfed aswell... If you nerf damagae and bb by the same ratio as the exist now, but the inherent numbers on the tooltips go down, it means nothing.. they will still do the same damage xD...
broken ginkgo
i think the point is to make the fights a lot less time consuming
merry zephyr
Bring down all the annoying af stuff that’s broken, shake the snow globe, and we’ll end up in a completely new meta and PvP environment that will be much more interesting
surreal cove
its either bB is too strong, or DPS is too strong
merry zephyr
Damn
I thought I had gotten through to audacity
All nerfs are not created equal @surreal cove
Do you get that point at least?
merry zephyr
No HUGE nerf to tankdown
surreal cove
what the numbers you propose?
merry zephyr
Small nerf to TWO out of the many characters that could cleave
Those two are not even in the same ballpark of nerfs
surreal cove
we have 3 cleave units atm, massiah, yeli, batsby, all 3 around the same level
merry zephyr
what the numbers you propose?
I literally made a giant ass post…talking through why I think all the changes I’m proposing should happen, and have suggestions for number changes for every single change
Check the post
I did both, gave numbers and an example patch note and explained everything
surreal cove
I literally made a giant ass post…talking through why I think all the changes I’...
i read the post, i didnt agree with what was said, hence why we dont agree.
maybe at this point im forgetting specifics
all i need to know, is % you think dps nerf should be, and bb nerf should be. to see where the balance lies in the logic
merry zephyr
Would you agree that nerfing healing by 30% and nerfing bloodbath is a SIGNIFICANT nerf to tankdown?
While speeding up etherna effect
surreal cove
Yep, and that significance will destroy the current balance
merry zephyr
Agreed
We now both agree that cleave is too strong
But it’s not specifically that all cleave is too strong in the same way that bloodbath and healing, which everyone can abuse, is too strong
Would you agree with that?
That it’s not every single cleave character’s dmg that would be too strong?
surreal cove
which other units do you consider cleave units?
and which are op
for me, the only real cleave units are yeli/massiah
yeli is rng.
and batsby seems very promising
random hatch
rilmocha supposed to be but...
merry zephyr
Rosa, Xiada, Liliam, Diting, Yeli, Massiah, Rilmocha, Diting, Gray, Rin, Sybil, Lian
They are all cleave dps
That either try and one shot a single target or one shot your whole team
Oh and batsby
The new fish
mighty sigil
They can't do a lot of the things specifically to bb
Because they're not allowed
To touch liliam
Liliam nerfs will not happen until next szn
merry zephyr
for me, the only real cleave units are yeli/massiah
And I would 100% agree that Yeli Massiah Are the only 2 real, usable cleave dps atm
Out of a ton of other characters
mighty sigil
And subsequently no major BB nerfs or tankdown stuff is going to happen
mighty sigil
Otherwise Liliam is about to have a field day
random hatch
she's not meant to be cleave
merry zephyr
True actually
surreal cove
Rosa, Xiada, Liliam, Diting, Yeli, Massiah, Rilmocha, Diting, Gray, Rin, Sybil, ...
so every dps with some AOE u think she be balanced the same??? no outliers should be better or worst given the situation they are used in? e.g rilmocha used primarily for doki?
merry zephyr
so every dps with some AOE u think she be balanced the same??? no outliers shoul...
That’s not what I said at all
Let’s go back to the question
You asked me what were all the cleave dos
surreal cove
yep
merry zephyr
I answered
merry zephyr
And you agreed that Yeli and Massiah are the only 2 real characters
merry zephyr
and your aim is to bring yeli and massiah to their level
No
I never said that
I said Yeli and Massiah do too much dmg even with the current state of BB
and should be brought down
You’re viewing things so black and white
random hatch
I said Yeli and Massiah do too much dmg even with the current state of BB
isn't that only the people with 5/5 duped tho
for me it seems fairly balanced
where a non-dupe massiah/yeli cleave
gets my bruiser BB team down to around
25% hp remaining
i know with the 5/5 cleavers
white magnet
I prefer to cleave than bruiser but i hope the devs dont nerf bb or buff rev again so bloodbath players and triple healer players can enjoy waiting on queue for 15 min - 1 hr and enjoy wanking each other with their s1 while healing up the damage
random hatch
they just annilate everything without a care in the world
but then if u nerf for those guys
surreal cove
Yeah exactly. I completely agree with you. Cleave WOULD dominate if those were t...
right here.... u said brought down to the power level of other cleavers
random hatch
the lower end massiah/yelis are gonna have a huge issue
that statement is contingent on the situation your describing
Im pretty sure that isn't his opinion
surreal cove
isn't that only the people with 5/5 duped tho
plus this.. its really whale massiahs that are cleaving through bb..
random hatch
fyi i haven't read anything else in this thread
surreal cove
yeli is 100% rng and fails most of the time
merry zephyr
right here.... u said brought down to the power level of other cleavers
Oh mb in that comment I should have said “brought down CLOSER to the power level of the other cleave dps”
If you bring down Yeli and Massiah then of COURSE they’re going to be closer in power level to the other non-competitive options rn
That’s just a given
surreal cove
have u noticed the main difference between yeli/massiah vs the others?
its element advantage
disadvantage
merry zephyr
Yeah the others do piss poor dmg
merry zephyr
its element advantage
EXACTLY you’re getting it wait
surreal cove
most people invested into the premium LD units compared to the others
merry zephyr
Keep going down this thought process
random hatch
wait is it even
isn't it just cuz they both have unique mechanics that simply allow them to deal more damage...
merry zephyr
The RGB dps SHOULD do more dmg than Yeli and Massiah with type advantage
But they currently CANNOT
broken ginkgo
if someone drafts a blue aoe cleaver against a red bruiser they should be rewarded with good drafting
merry zephyr
And that is a huge imbalance
merry zephyr
if someone drafts a blue aoe cleaver against a red bruiser they should be reward...
YES
that’s it, the LDs are too high in power level
broken ginkgo
but now they just pick any ld and they are set
merry zephyr
To where the RGBs cannot compete
surreal cove
isn't it just cuz they both have unique mechanics that simply allow them to deal...
plus this yes.. but the reason the meta doesnt include these, outside of their niche usecases for pve, is that yeli/massiah are nuetral elements.. these always dominate cleave in pvp gachas
broken ginkgo
yeah, i just spam messiah
random hatch
makes sense
broken ginkgo
why bother when u can just draft messiah or yeli and do the same dmg or even more as someone who as the elemental advantage
merry zephyr
plus this yes.. but the reason the meta doesnt include these, outside of their n...
But would you agree that when you do find the right scenario where you have a Red cleave dps against a green bruiser, that the red cleave dps should be doing more dmg than Yeli or Massiah
Otherwise wtf is the point of the element system
surreal cove
the last thing u want as a cleaver, is to end up drafting into atagonistic element when you have a nuetral unit that doesnt care..
surreal cove
But would you agree that when you do find the right scenario where you have a Re...
yes.. but thats already the case for units with cleave kits
e.g batsby destroys red
way harder than massiah
AOE=/= cleave imo
random hatch
But would you agree that when you do find the right scenario where you have a Re...
isn't that more because of for example, massiah's ignore def/passive?
rather than him being light tho
merry zephyr
yes.. but thats already the case for units with cleave kits
You mentioned the brand new character 
surreal cove
if the kit isnt built aorund this
surreal cove
You mentioned the brand new character <:CliliasICANT:1386862733571526739>
yep. the game is brand new.. massiah was first banner, then yeli, now batsby
all cleave heavy dps's
filling diff niches for pvp cleave
merry zephyr
Other than batsby, the character with a passive to further increase type advantage by an insane amount, who is doing Yeli / Massiah dmg or even close to it with type advantage?
potent quest
Otherwise wtf is the point of the element system
you should know
merry zephyr
Batsby kit is literally BUILT around type advantage
random hatch
i mean we just don't have other cleave dps
rosa and xiada aren't cleave dps
they just abuse rev
saying rosa and xiada are cleave dps is like saying freya is a cleave dps
surreal cove
isn't that more because of for example, massiah's ignore def/passive?
massiah numbers scale into def values.. but without def ingore, he does less damage than most of the dps..so his dps balances out based on situations used
random hatch
by design she's not
merry zephyr
Nah Rosa is def a cleave dps
random hatch
she's not
she's litereally a consistent damage dealer
her kit relies on damage over multiple turns
not a single turn
otherwise whats the point of her followup passive
thats her whole identity
is to be a unit that is really good at dealing damage over longer than average fights no?
surreal cove
thats my point, it seems everything with aoe= cleave dps to people.. and im saying thats not how games are created
surreal cove
rilmocha is a single target dps, with spalsh dmaage..
random hatch
rilmocha is a single target dps, with spalsh dmaage..
rilmocha is a cleave unit
indisputably
she is quite literally meant to explode teams
merry zephyr
So what’s the flip side then? Any character that has a somewhat interesting kit outside of raw nuking with S3 ISNT cleave?
I don’t get yalls point
random hatch
So what’s the flip side then? Any character that has a somewhat interesting kit ...
the point is
we don't have real cleave dps
outside of yeli and massiah
and batsby
surreal cove
she is quite literally meant to explode teams
if she cant kill, she aint splashing anything. if she is balanced around single target, she can splash. e.g if she did simialr damage to liliam, she would be closer to executing and spalash
merry zephyr
They all do dmg in different ways and hve different strengths and advantages rather than just raw nuking with zero interesting mechanics
broken ginkgo
i mean rosa can easily cleave any control team, into bruiser i see her as aggro, where you try to take down a specific unit with her passive, the dmg on the side is extra
random hatch
if she cant kill, she aint splashing anything. if she is balanced around single ...
yea so she's just underpowered/not favoured by meta
merry zephyr
and batsby
Batsby is a great example
surreal cove
currently she is cleave for pve since she can execute
random hatch
that doesn't mean she wasn't designed to be a cleave dps
merry zephyr
You consider him a cleave dps
magic cloak
YES. This right here. Cleave is propped up by 2 dps, which is not nearly enough ...
batsby is a demon
surreal cove
that doesn't mean she wasn't designed to be a cleave dps
or she was just designed for pve.
merry zephyr
But he does not function without lots of debuffs on the target
merry zephyr
And has to crit multiple units and turn push back around to S2
random hatch
is literally control/aggro cleave
random hatch
so he plays into that archetype
merry zephyr
That’s the exact same with Rosa
They both rely on teammates
To help their dps
Otherwise they cannot cleave
surreal cove
So what’s the flip side then? Any character that has a somewhat interesting kit ...
and YES.. do you want your cleave units to have crazy utility too!? thats crazy broken.. thats even WORST for the meta.. look at the complaint liliam got for being this.. luckily she is single target
random hatch
but does batsby favor burst or consistent damage over time?
like after u s3s2 on batsby
can u upkeep the same level of damage?
i don't really think so right
same with massiah
after u s3
u have 0 aoe potential
merry zephyr
Yeah some cleave dps have higher uptime than others
plain gust
Idk batsby looks like total dog to me
merry zephyr
Yeli does insane dmg with S1 still
random hatch
yea but its luck based
magic cloak
leave everything as it is nerf kazoo sleep buff bleed and make it counter healing
random hatch
if ur unlucky
magic cloak
simple
random hatch
ur not doing jackshit
plain gust
He would be good if he can attack back to back like lilith
random hatch
thats the tradeoff
rosa s3
yes its good burst
but thats not her main strength
her strength comes from her ability to CONSISTENTLY deal damage
merry zephyr
Regardless each cleave dos should have tradeoffs and deal dmg in different ways
random hatch
as every one of her teammates take turns
merry zephyr
her strength comes from her ability to CONSISTENTLY deal damage
I mean that’s how you view her
random hatch
no thats just her ability kit
surreal cove
i dont even draft yeli anymore due to her lack of consistnency.. the amount of times i needed 1 folowuup to kill..
random hatch
again im not trying to argue
ur using her incorrectly
or u SHOULDN'T use her as a cleave dps
magic cloak
i dont even draft yeli anymore due to her lack of consistnency.. the amount of t...
yeli isn’t a solo dps
random hatch
im just saying by base design
magic cloak
you can’t draft her by herself
random hatch
her kit is not meant for 1 turn damage
random hatch
and u sohuldn't ever expect her to deal the same amount of damage as a yeli or massiah
magic cloak
something
random hatch
in a single turn
surreal cove
yeli isn’t a solo dps
even in non solo situations.. im just on about needing her to proc her s1 after garaunteed to kill a target..
merry zephyr
I never said I expect Rosa to deal the same amount of dmg in a single turn
merry zephyr
In the same way that Batsby requires 2 turns to deal his dmg
magic cloak
and he only needs like 3 lattices
merry zephyr
And requires teammates
magic cloak
doesn’t even need 555
plain gust
no thats just her ability kit
Too bad dmg is absurdly overturned and she would get one tapped by any bruiser if she can't one shot
magic cloak
first non 555 dps wooooooo
random hatch
i mean thats fine but
cleave should kill
before enemies take turns
sorry not kill but
you should win the game
merry zephyr
Ye I agree
merry zephyr
Rosa functions like that in cleave
magic cloak
maybe not the entire team
merry zephyr
You have to play her very specifically
random hatch
that supports rosa
merry zephyr
And kill before they take turn
random hatch
to kill before they take turns
merry zephyr
And use units that support her
random hatch
because she also does have CR push on S1
merry zephyr
Yeah exactly
plain gust
batsby is nutty tho
How?
random hatch
because that does definitely have value
merry zephyr
🤝
random hatch
when you're making a self-cycle cleave team
random hatch
that constantly pushes enemies
magic cloak
and clap up bruisers
merry zephyr
I’m glad we could come to an understanding @random hatch
random hatch
more in the aggro/contorl archetype
but still definitely within cleave
so honestly fair point
merry zephyr
🍻
plain gust
From what I saw you can't take 2 turns in a row with him
random hatch
that shit is not cleave and u can't convince me otherwise
merry zephyr
Yeah xiada I shouldn’t have included lol
random hatch
merry zephyr
That was mb
surreal cove
aNYTHING can be used in cleave, proven by freya...
merry zephyr
Was quickly going threw list lol
random hatch
aNYTHING can be used in cleave, proven by freya...
i will say
magic cloak
From what I saw you can't take 2 turns in a row with him
you run him with controls and turn meters chars
random hatch
freya
magic cloak
mia
random hatch
honestly
magic cloak
marvell
random hatch
she's not a cleve dps
merry zephyr
I think revelation is a whole nother can of worms
surreal cove
nope, but she successfully gets used as one
random hatch
she perfectly fits and synergies in the cleave archetype
magic cloak
revelation is fine lmao
random hatch
nono she is 100% a cleave unit lol
merry zephyr
I don’t even know what to think about revelation + non-dps multihitters
magic cloak
bloodbath is made to counter cleave
broken ginkgo
what about rc-77
magic cloak
revelation is made to help against bloodbath
plain gust
those are type of chars u draft with him
sound like crap
merry zephyr
I don’t even know what to think about revelation + non-dps multihitters
What’s y’all’s take on these units and this ‘playstyle’?
random hatch
is to help your team cycle turns
and take turns more often
while providing other utility and stuff
random hatch
not too far off of what freya does with her passive
letting u control enemy turn meter with debuffs
while letting ur team gain more turn meter with buff application
all while applifying the damage u deal
magic cloak
one taps tiamat without atk up
my messiah can’t even do that most of the time
lmao
surreal cove
cleave is broken in this game.. u dont even need def break in htis game to cleave..
random hatch
it is
surreal cove
u can pick and choose between atk up or def break
surreal cove
hence why bb exists
surreal cove
cleave is hated i all games
random hatch
because its such a lame playstyle, u just atke turns and there's no counterplay
surreal cove
its premium play that most cant do.
magic cloak
cleave is broken in this game.. u dont even need def break in htis game to cleav...
not true
surreal cove
and most have to lose against
random hatch
idk i think cleave is less hated in ER
magic cloak
that’s only with messiah
surreal cove
that’s only with messiah
yeli brings her own def break.
magic cloak
yeli brings her own def break.
oh
random hatch
there's no complex layers and counterplay and decisions to be made in bruiser matchups and tank down
random hatch
and draft is so shallow cuz of our low unit pool
without cleave game is just zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
surreal cove
there's no complex layers and counterplay and decisions to be made in bruiser ma...
bruiser is all elemental matchups and gear and play choices... i htink there is enough complexity..
e.g, mizuki is a must vs tiamat
which means holden need to be picked
plain gust
with liliy and barely gets the job done in 4 hits
merry zephyr
Yeah bruiser matchups are at least interesting and element system actually matters
magic cloak
i think leave bloodbath as it is
surreal cove
what about once ur in game
like all other gacha, including e7. its the choices we make and gear quality
magic cloak
nerf healing
and just add more options to cleave with
that aren’t LD
batsby is a good addition
plain gust
i think leave bloodbath as it is
that's what I been saying
merry zephyr
Cleave is fundamentally broken rn because even at thoe advantage RGB dps don’t come close to Massiah Yeli
plain gust
I swear these guys are not playing rta rn
magic cloak
Cleave is fundamentally broken rn because even at thoe advantage RGB dps don’t c...
cleave isn’t broken
ur braindead
plain gust
I got clean swiped by mass earlier today
surreal cove
idk i think cleave is less hated in ER
the game had cleave.. 90% of players quit before they nerfed it xD
plain gust
3.5 k holden
merry zephyr
cleave isn’t broken
I give up
plain gust
40k hp sania
plain gust
I mean u can nerf I will still get one tapped anyway
merry zephyr
I swear I don’t speak the same language as other people or something lol
surreal cove
<:KekW:632555104012075008>
so if anything.. this game had THE MOST CLEAVER HATERS
plain gust
the problem is a lot of ppl in this thread are talking from a fundemntal level
surreal cove
i mean... bb+lighthouse just counters cleave.. if anything, its cleave+cc combo thats strong
plain gust
well guess what this game is in release phase from 3 months
random hatch
but also most probabyl just quit cuz... the game is shit
plain gust
too late now
random hatch
surreal cove
some quit cuz of rev for sure
id say 90% of the 90% who quit, did so due to rev..
merry zephyr
I think early game PvP is a whole nother problem sadly
Tons of issues cause it to be complete ass
magic cloak
when does orebanning become a thing
merry zephyr
And revelation was the nail on the coffin
magic cloak
i swear
plain gust
imo there is only one real issue right now
plain gust
and that is bruiser mirrors taking forever
magic cloak
is it platinum that has no preban
surreal cove
RTA is never an early game gamemode.. its ALWAYS a late game thing..
magic cloak
i deadass found plat harder than master 💀💀
merry zephyr
Kaz is a demon 
plain gust
but there is no cleave doesn't work issue
merry zephyr
2 turn hard CC on a zero turn cooldown
surreal cove
i deadass found plat harder than master 💀💀
plat is always the hardest. not having prebands and protect makes things infinitely harder
plain gust
absoulute crap
merry zephyr
Devs were cooking with that one
magic cloak
mythic is just straight up bruisers
plain gust
up to top 10 bruisers are getting clean cleaved
magic cloak
like i got to mythic then everyone just started lrebanning my messiah
surreal cove
2 turn hard CC on a zero turn cooldown
its needed for pve..
magic cloak
😭💀
surreal cove
if you guys havent noticed, most units were balanced around pve
magic cloak
so now i gotta build batsby
surreal cove
since pve is oivertuned
surreal cove
balance should have been around pvp.. since this is a MLG ESPORT MEGA GAME blah blah
and make sure we can clear pve with what units they make
but no.....
random hatch
damn canm't relate
plain gust
yeesh
surreal cove
fk off.. i still need 1
plain gust
I only dropped one good codex so far
magic cloak
i have 2 on jackal only 1 on codex
plain gust
it's brutal
surreal cove
eitherway.. just leave the game as it is.. maybe reduce healing a tiny bit, and remove all cc units..
magic cloak
yu
surreal cove
my lily is 367.. u guys slacking..
magic cloak
i wish
plain gust
I don't have a single red substat 
magic cloak
only 349 on max set
merry zephyr
Damn that’s the one I been looking for right there
random hatch
only 349 on max set
wtf
actually that makes sense
lol
my fastest is 344
without red speed modules
plain gust
tbh I geniunly think this is why most ppl are playing bruiser in rta
surreal cove
my fastest still 335.
stray plaza
349 still a slow ass
surreal cove
tbh I geniunly think this is why most ppl are playing bruiser in rta <:dv_frogKe...
most of us lack speed. bruiser is easy to build
cleave is premium
merry zephyr
I don’t understand how people have red sods already
plain gust
exactly
surreal cove
as ive said 1 million times
magic cloak
tbh I geniunly think this is why most ppl are playing bruiser in rta <:dv_frogKe...
pretty much everyone in mythic is bruiser
merry zephyr
I’ve got 2 yellows I think
magic cloak
i have 15 yellows
surreal cove
i got 1 yellow. 0 reds
magic cloak
main ermine
🥲
merry zephyr
HWTA
surreal cove
u p2w?
merry zephyr
where you getting said coins
magic cloak
i’m not p2w at all
merry zephyr
Omega whale?
magic cloak
i’m f2p now
merry zephyr
surreal cove
NOW.. epmphasis on NOW
magic cloak
i’ve spent 100$
merry zephyr
The now is sus
surreal cove
ive spent 0
magic cloak
i had every ld
and was 2nd in ai arena on my region
with 0$
i just spent to get yeli
merry zephyr
I’m not sure if you’re a real person CC
magic cloak
which i had to go to max pity for
merry zephyr
I’m starting to doubt
magic cloak
😁
merry zephyr
The validity of everything you say
magic cloak
wdym
surreal cove
my liliam SXC atleast
random hatch
when u guys calc fastest speed
magic cloak
i do t even use her rn
random hatch
oo yea
magic cloak
i have s1 max
magic cloak
decent
i’m considering swapping freya to rev tho
but that means i lose a speed contest
i’ll have to think about it
i’m giving mio lattice for speed in double event
ima give her 5 lattice
surreal cove
i do t even use her rn
i think she needs a buff..
magic cloak
kek
ima use lilliam as a speed contest too
ima run her on white fang swiftrush
give her like
320
or sum
surreal cove
small pp damage
magic cloak
mio doesn’t reduce speed and effect res…
you can run him with mio
xd
more debuffs for batsby the better
versed tapir
Who the f thinks cleave is broken in this game...
merry zephyr
Anybody know how to jump back to the top of a thread on phone?
Normally there’s a button on Pc
magic cloak
Who the f thinks cleave is broken in this game...
someone not in high rank rta
magic cloak
Anybody know how to jump back to the top of a thread on phone?
there ain’t
i had the same problem
merry zephyr
versed tapir
I had a problem with yeli and messiah not being able to one shot, then lighthouse boosting their healer above my next unit and that healer literally healing everyone back to full hp so I had to draft cc units
surreal cove
cleave needs to be part of cc to work. takes good draft sense.
if u pull it off, its hard for enemy to recover
versed tapir
Yes and this thread saying cc is a problem...
I use it to counter healers otherwise I never kill anything
magic cloak
I had a problem with yeli and messiah not being able to one shot, then lighthous...
messiah can one tap SOMETIMES
surreal cove
cc is fine imo. kazuya is maybe the main thing people hate. but imo.. cleave/cc is always hated in rta for all gacha. standard allows for play and counterplay during matches.
magic cloak
yeli can’t
versed tapir
messiah can one tap SOMETIMES
He can one top through bb and lighthouse?
surreal cove
godly 5/5 massiah can one tap SOMETIMES.. there i fixed it
versed tapir
dam...
magic cloak
ho chars sometimes but very rarely
surreal cove
link your massiah
magic cloak
it’s not hard to counter massiah
just run a veronika on bb
in unban spot
simples
that’s the direct counter
tiamat also counters
versed tapir
But cleave is very easy to counter, just draft cleave units or their speed units and draft bruiser and healer the rest
surreal cove
i have faced a really amazing cleave though.. lily, beyontin, massiah, cachi
surreal cove
and one other i cant rmeber
versed tapir
cc is fine imo. kazuya is maybe the main thing people hate. but imo.. cleave/cc ...
Yes... I've been 'disrespected' in other games because I draft cleave... but I'm not sitting through a 5-10 min game for one match
merry zephyr
(For myself on phone: #1409270299878359122 message
So I can get back to top of thread quickly)
merry zephyr
Ok added a section clarifying the goals of my patch suggestion
abstract river
Ok I’m not trying to argue with you needlessly too much. I genuinely am trying t...
Rev buff too pls 
merry zephyr
lemme know if that makes sense or if I should change it at all
magic cloak
lemme know if that makes sense or if I should change it at all
they aren’t gonna read ts bro
merry zephyr
they aren’t gonna read ts bro
that's fine if you aren't going to read it bro
just adding it for those who care
trying to have some genuine discussion and listing out my goals I think will help
I want etheria to succeed
versed tapir
Nerfing control comps to the ground isn't the answer
When people take a cleave unit with 4 other bruisers/healers, cc is my answer
This is just my opinion, but your balances just heavily favor bruisers in general
merry zephyr
This is just my opinion, but your balances just heavily favor bruisers in genera...
really?
I feel like bruisers would clearly be the biggest losers
healing 30% nerf, etherna effect buff, BB nerf
rahu and holden buff revert
cleave is barely getting touched
control is getting some heavy nerfs tho, maybe those nerfs would be too much
from what I've heard though, control is extremely overpowered rn
from my own experience, control has access to some extremely unfair and unfun tools: codex spamming, lily + dokidoki cooldown resetting infinitely, kazuyo, obol, eff res not being a real counter, alicorn not being a real counter
magic cloak
bb doesn’t need nerf
just nerf healing
kek
if any nerf to bb
should be very very very small
like 5%
merry zephyr
I would agree that BB is not as insane as most people think it is
that's why I suggested a pretty small change
55% to 50% and 20% to 30%
maybe I should change it to 20% to 25% of max hp
and also bruisers have literally zero other options to turn to rn
versed tapir
from what I've heard though, control is extremely overpowered rn
Control is overpowered if you let the right units through
merry zephyr
so until they introduce new sets or rework sets like wellspring, BB nerfs or reworks are tough to introduce
wet pier
tiamat s1 can 2 shot, healing is so high that you can heal it up (somewhat)
merry zephyr
also audacity, all of this can be true at the same time
wet pier
both need to be nerfed a bit so that people arent forced to draft 2 healers to survive
merry zephyr
cleave can have OP tools, and bruisers can have OP tools
saying you can't remove both playstyles OP tools at the same time doesn't make sense
versed tapir
Yeah tiamat...
merry zephyr
that's not a real argument
versed tapir
I've seen a tiamat come back to life because of that shell(forgot the name)
Then transform, get 100% turn meter and one shot my entire cleave team
Not fun
wet pier
if you nerf damage AND healing, you can play more for chip damage
right now its just waiting for turnmeter to line up where you can insta burst something before it takes a turn with etherena effect ramping up
merry zephyr
if you nerf damage AND healing, you can play more for chip damage
100% agreed
the game doesn't start until etherna effect hits near 100% healing reduction and 100% dmg amp
wet pier
which is why lily went from not really used in bruiser last season to highly contested god tier
and also why rahu is super op atm, you just get a followup defense break on a key healer like sania and insta burst them down
surreal cove
what how is this contradictory
healing is the answer to your ''damage too high'' problem.
wet pier
right now its just waiting for turnmeter to line up where you can insta burst so...
read this bro
PLEASE read
surreal cove
high damage is the answer to the healing too high problem
merry zephyr
healing is the answer to your ''damage too high'' problem.
#1409270299878359122 message
I don't think audacity can read
ngl
wet pier
u cant heal without taking your turn
surreal cove
u cant heal without taking your turn
huh? u stated healing needs reduction, and that damage is too high
no?
merry zephyr
huh? u stated healing needs reduction, and that damage is too high
#1409270299878359122 message
bro read
wet pier
yes......
merry zephyr
it's about playing for chip more
wet pier
BURST DAMAGE is too high
surreal cove
bro read
im going off of memory.. i aint scrolling up hours of chat.. plus he said yes
merry zephyr
burst dmg and burst healing is too high
versed tapir
im going off of memory.. i aint scrolling up hours of chat.. plus he said yes
Then why are you talking...
merry zephyr
im going off of memory.. i aint scrolling up hours of chat.. plus he said yes
I linked it several times
wet pier
its why rahu and holden are so broken
merry zephyr
you don't have to scroll
surreal cove
no where did 'burst' get tmentioned..
merry zephyr
wet pier
theres only burst damage in the game
merry zephyr
I think you have to be rage baiting at this point
wet pier
there is no viable dot teams
surreal cove
wait.. holden is considered burst damage?
wet pier
all i will say is people crying for only bloodbath nerfs
same thing will happen as rev nerfs
surreal cove
there is no viable dot teams
huuuh? thats a completely different topic
surreal cove
into squishy targets yes?
surreal cove
but holden fights vs bruiser most of the time
surreal cove
i am yet to see a holden s2 take half my hp on tiamat.. or my healers
wet pier
lets say ur fighting a sania at 0 turn meter your holden is at 100% and rahu is 90%
holden s1's into sania, procs rahu follow up and defense down lands, then rahu can go -> holden jackal procs as well
holden can then take ANOTHER turn and overkill her very easily
and even if he cant, he can S2 and push her back
now imagine this without bloodbath or with big nerf to bloodbath
surreal cove
wait.. thats takes alot of setupid...
wet pier
it doesnt
surreal cove
you literally stated two specific units interacting
wet pier
ok heres another example
surreal cove
sania is cutting with gigabyte everytime
wet pier
holden s1's sania and lands defense down
surreal cove
and full healing.. since apprently heal is so high
surreal cove
ok.. so they just drafted 3 bruiser/dps units!??
seems like a dead draft to cc, or sustain
wet pier
nvm man
surreal cove
our out push
wet pier
ur right i have no idea what im talking about
surreal cove
im not saying u dont
wet pier
i fp holden everygame, like 90% of top pvp atm
surreal cove
im saying you are painting specific scenarios... that have to line up perfectly tuned.. into what seems like a vacuum
plain parrot
ok.. so they just drafted 3 bruiser/dps units!??
See the problem is you're having a discussion with a CC who can barely draft a proper team himself, let him cook just like the devs are cooking its all good 👍
wet pier
ive seen this happen way too often
wet pier
See the problem is you're having a discussion with a CC who can barely draft a p...
yeah ur right
surreal cove
my issue is how specific the scene he is painting is..
wet pier
Wow damn mythic in a dead game <a:PM_clap:920832041703071754>
wow u cant hit masters+ in dead game
merry zephyr
bro I cannot believe samool's credibility is being attacked
wet pier
D tier troll wow
hes not even trolling look at his messages in this discord
merry zephyr
if samool isn't good enough to give good enough meta analysis
idk who is
that's crazy
main ermine
hes not even trolling look at his messages in this discord
Even worse if their sincere beliefs
plain gust
yes dmg is overtuned af
wet pier
yea i dont but i dont know why he has main character syndrome and butts into a convo
plain gust
not just cleave dmg
main ermine
yea i dont but i dont know why he has main character syndrome and butts into a c...
Needs attention
Or needs smth
plain gust
if u don't run bb right now and anything sneeze on u get one tapped
surreal cove
regarding the damage issue though, damage being high is why healing is high is the point im making.. but people want nerfs to healing and nerfs to damage.. which just makes the meta just as long as it currently is
wet pier
regarding the damage issue though, damage being high is why healing is high is t...
im not saying we should nerf them equally
surreal cove
im not saying we should nerf them equally
ok, which is what i asked legat.. whats a realistic number for nerfs for each
merry zephyr
@wet pier what other characters do you think should be tuned down dmg wise? Or do you think dmg reduction effect from etherna just needs to go up?
wet pier
dmg reduction needs to go up and healing needs to go down
merry zephyr
I know holden, Rahu, yeli, massiah are on my list
plain gust
<@97405054310420480> what other characters do you think should be tuned down dmg...
ure wrong btw
with all due respect
it's not the LD dmg is too high
all dmg is
surreal cove
I know holden, Rahu, yeli, massiah are on my list
havnt you been picketing for reduction in BB?
plain gust
rin one shots anything if there is no bb for example
wet pier
i mean they just need to touch etherena effect a bit more
everything is overtuned numbers wise
merry zephyr
we're in the position we are in the meta because we only nerfed rev. We only nerfed dmg
wet pier
even turn meter push from gigabyte is too high
wet pier
healers being able to be full effres and feel like they are 400 speed shouldnt be allowed
dense moth
even turn meter push from gigabyte is too high
please dont nerf gigaybyte and jackal i want to do shadowrunner in peace (imlilylless)
plain gust
everything is extreme in this game
dense moth
samool have mercy
merry zephyr
everything is extreme in this game
exactly, lets make it less extreme
plain gust
needs like a full overhaul of the game then
merry zephyr
yes
merry zephyr
lets do that
surreal cove
and u agreed
plain gust
idk seems too late
wet pier
just bump etherna effect up
plain gust
don't know if they can tbh
dense moth
needs like a full overhaul of the game then
we are beta player cn beta is beta 2.0 cn full launch is real launch
merry zephyr
samool just said dmaage reduction needs to go up.....
dmg reduction is not bloodbath....they're separate things bro
wet pier
its 30% reduction to dmg right
surreal cove
dmg reduction is not bloodbath....they're separate things bro
wtf u on about? bb is damage reduction on proc..
echo hawk
If the entire game needs a rehaul then maybe we should just play diff game
burnt elm
dps have insane multipliers
surreal cove
If the entire game needs a rehaul then maybe we should just play diff game
exactly
burnt elm
and shells give way more stats than sets ngl
merry zephyr
wtf u on about? bb is damage reduction on proc..
wet pier
idk if it needs a "rehaul"
surreal cove
we basically want the devs to build a whole new game
wet pier
because if everything is overtuned you just put a better global effect
burnt elm
If the entire game needs a rehaul then maybe we should just play diff game
tbf, sw went through several rehauls before it got where it is now
wet pier
and right now literally everything is overtuned
burnt elm
it’s mot uncommon for pvp gacha to change a lot of things in a big, sweeping way
merry zephyr
the whole point of a live service game is that it evolves over time, metas shift, things get shaken up, and the game looks completely different than what it looked like at launch
surreal cove
if everything is broken.. then everything is balanced
honest cairn
Hi LeGAT all your main points in the first section are very strong and I've already addressed them directly with the team!
The approach that I turned around from the community suggestions were on many the ideas about buffs/nerfs though.
This will only further fuel the chaos and pain of lattice investments and make people constantly feel uneasy during these cycles as the resoruce is limited.
Main focus will be on using etherena effect to balance strategies and metas, as well as finding unique ways to implement shells. This will create diversity and ease the meta to be more engaging and fun without making people feel scared about their investment strategies every patch cycle.
I also addressed CC, eff/res formulas, and more that was mentioned in your main ideas.
Thanks! Great ideas and understanding in general, but I've realized how dangerous community ideas AND past developer ideas about buffing and nerfing can be. I really don't want that path to continue.
Also remember every buff is an indirect nerf and every nerf is an indirect buff. It's super messy. There are better solutions, and unfortunately I had to shut down a lot of the community ideas to stand on this ground and realize this.
echo hawk
I would think you lose alot of your mid tier players that save hard and invest smartly if you rehaul and they get unlucky and now have bad teams
merry zephyr
C has arrived omg
wet pier
Hi LeGAT all your main points in the first section are very strong and I've alre...
REFORMED
burnt elm
I would think you lose alot of your mid tier players that save hard and invest s...
rehauls usually come with reset events
wet pier
i agree with c here though
burnt elm
usually a month-long affair
wet pier
i dont think any units need to be really adjusted, its normal to have 'stronger' units
its just the overall numbers that are kinda overtuned
merry zephyr
Hi LeGAT all your main points in the first section are very strong and I've alre...
that's very valid
burnt elm
Units definitely have absurd numbers and stat variance tho
merry zephyr
and is probably the right approach to take, using etherna effect to balance and making more unit agnostic changes