inferno difficulty megathread, happy 100k

[valid zephyr]

90% of the discussion is just salt feeding through

[upbeat breach]

I have sania and still think inferno has to be nerfed. But people are btching that they cant do content without following the mechanic of the fight

[ornate moth]

I don't attack anyone who doesn't first come in here and call me a coping loser and stuff like that

[warped kestrel]

A marathon is a race. And this is a competitive PvP game, not some PvE hoyo game.

[tardy ridge]

people cant do the content even following the mechanics

[scarlet quartz]

Inferno terror needs to be nerfed until u can clear it with solo dps lian in a reasonable amount of time

[upbeat breach]

Like the tiamat comp for nico nana

[elfin trout]

Why you attacking me bro

[valid zephyr]

Maybe you dont but I see plenty of people who do

[tardy ridge]

can we stop with these pointless smooth brain takes

[upbeat breach]

Cant do which content? Only one that you need dot is hoyan

[dreamy cliff]

I found a youtuber earlier clearing Doki hell 4 with like 99% success using 2 R units, no Lily or anything mostly F2P units. give it some time people will figure out extremely F2P/Early game teams to farm any content with

[ornate moth]

if you look at my post history in here I have posted a bunch of non-ssania clears and given ppl advice for fights etc. I am genuinely trying to help the game

[scarlet quartz]

Yes that is the solution we need

[true trench]

hell4 is not inferno

big news

[scarlet quartz]

the game will not die like that i am sureeee

[tardy ridge]

hell 4 = inferno

my eyes have been opened

stop complaining guys

its solved

[ornate moth]

That's fair to have that opinion but I strongly disagree

[drowsy gust]

You're either with them or against them Rath

[turbid ridge]

so if they dont nerf it before 2X which obv aint happening now than this wont be over anyway even if they fix it next week on the weekly patch?

[scarlet quartz]

It's not even fair

Can we stop accepting dumb takes

[dreamy cliff]

Dumb take it that inferno requires shadow sania, because it doesn't

[ornate moth]

I just mean it in the sense that they are entitled to their opinion

[tardy ridge]

only 1 thing left to do, troll like these few people have been doing

[ornate moth]

maybe bad phrasing

[upbeat breach]

I think that is what will happen, but it is a bad take to nerf after the 2x, people will just get even more pissed

[turbid ridge]

thats what i mean so either way this wont stop it next week

[scarlet quartz]

If its not nerfed soon regardless of timing the game will sink

like a rock

[turbid ridge]

just a new thread

[ornate moth]

yeah bro she's not required at all. It's just that if u have her, u can clear without even 6 starring a unit, on auto battle in 1 minute. And if you don't, you need to do 7 minute manual clears with full team of maxed out units

[tardy ridge]

is there even a single game that requires max skilled gacha units to clear farming content

🥀

[valid zephyr]

I mean what they can do is make 2x only prowess and exp

[upbeat breach]

I think so too, especially for the casual player base

[warped kestrel]

Ideally it should be nerfed before the x2, but there's no reason people would get more pissed if it's nerfed after. It will be nerfed sooner or later.

[dreamy cliff]

auto battle? no. I cannot auto battle anything with Ssania her AI is dumb af

[drowsy gust]

And even if it does require it, they give you most if not all of what you need

[dreamy cliff]

I manual cleared all of my energy yday farming shadowhol

[tardy ridge]

thats why i said gacha

not the f2p free stuff

[ornate moth]

others have figured out auto strats with her tho

[scarlet quartz]

So stop defending anything else even if the "you need Ssania is overblown"

[upbeat breach]

There is a difference between farming 10k energy on a 2x on inferno and farming gear on normal drop later on

[scarlet quartz]

it's needs a nerf, a big one

[upbeat breach]

I am not defending them, I am saying they need to do a small nerf

Not a big nerf at all

[scarlet quartz]

small is not enough

to enable

unit variety

[upbeat breach]

10-15% and that is it

[scarlet quartz]

not at all

[dreamy cliff]

I tried the "auto" strat, it's fails like 40% of the time

[tardy ridge]

a small nerf is not making lian clear terrormaton

🥀

[dreamy cliff]

I can't be wasting that much energy

[drowsy gust]

Honestly, this wouldn't have blown up as big as it did if inferno was just better drop rate instead of having exclusives like higher base stat shells and the inferno sets

[upbeat breach]

A 15% speed drop in niconana would enable a shitload of stuff for example

[scarlet quartz]

yes it does! on manual and over 5 minutes

[dreamy cliff]

I'd rather manual and have better runs

[warped kestrel]

People will be pissed if they don't nerf it before x2, but they won't be even more pissed if they nerf it afterwards, because the point is, Inferno needs to be accessible to the average player, whether it's now or later.

[royal otter]

Have YOU cleared any inferno where ssania is bis with any other teams?

[tardy ridge]

no they have not

[scarlet quartz]

he has seen them

they exist!

[valid zephyr]

To be fair I did clear Niconana Inferno with Diting

[tardy ridge]

they saw a doki hell 4 video

[scarlet quartz]

nvm the 5 imprints and furyedge set

[tardy ridge]

W in the chat

[upbeat breach]

why would anyone with sania use another unit to clear that content?

[royal otter]

So that they can stop talking out of their ass?

[upbeat breach]

It is like using rahu to clear doki when you have xiada or rilmocha

[tardy ridge]

i have sania lily to clear the content but im not gonna sit here and cope that its even realtively close to fine

[ornate moth]

yeah that's fair but then why would they give their opinion on if it's reasonable to clear without ssania. When they don't know

[upbeat breach]

No one will waste resources just to prove a point here

[dreamy cliff]

Yes, I cleared nico with cachi, although it was 1 star, it still clears

[ornate moth]

exactly lol

[valid zephyr]

If my units were tankier I reckon I could do Shadow Hoyan too but HP% bonus + spds subs just dont want to drop

[finite palm]

I think the point is if somebody is telling others to clear that content without Sania then they should be able to do ti themselves

[royal otter]

Proof?

[upbeat breach]

From the teams posted by people actually trying it here, with full gear and etc

[royal otter]

And i imagine the investment and time to celar is nowhere near

[upbeat breach]

Or that someone did it without uber whaling for it

[dreamy cliff]

I don't have it on my profile since it's now updated to 3 stars, but I followed some guides that I saw on youtube and it worked

[upbeat breach]

DOT terror and veronika terror has the same investment regarding skill ups

[ornate moth]

what were the units

[tardy ridge]

no it doesnt

lol

why are weblowing smoke out of our ass

for fun

[dreamy cliff]

Cachi/linglao/Messiah/kloss

[valid zephyr]

I mean thats a pretty wide assumption I do multiple team comp just cause I like to try things out. like how I realised with two built healers I didnt need a dispel for Aurora Hell IV

[upbeat breach]

Khloros with skill up vs sania with skill up and that is it

[ornate moth]

how about stars/levels/modules/shells?

[royal otter]

Maxed out messiah skills? And Kloss s3?

[valid zephyr]

But I dont go around posting them

I just test them for myself

[scarlet quartz]

and they both require 2 specific SSRs or 2LDs

[sudden wedge]

veronica needs 2 in her s3

[dreamy cliff]

Only maxed out messiah S3 & S1 but the last skill up, no skill up on kloss

[upbeat breach]

You know it is similar for veronika comp right? You just need 6* on the two dps

[royal otter]

Imma try it tomorrow when i lvl up my messi with x2

[tardy ridge]

full 6* maxed skilled khloros ditting vs 5* full team 4 in sania s1 4 in val(the khlroos team also uses) and 8 in fangus

yeah this is fair guys

🥀

[dreamy cliff]

Cachi does have S3 max skill up though

Double Acc & 1 HP module

[upbeat breach]

You dont need a max skilled khloros, you just need s3

[tardy ridge]

maybe to manual

[scarlet quartz]

you should be able to replace khloros with lian without issues

[tardy ridge]

the guy that made the comp has 80% auto rate with GIGABIS entire team and modules

[scarlet quartz]

and 10-15% are not doing that

[tardy ridge]

pls stop coping man

its not healthy

[upbeat breach]

the guy did on auto the day everyone hit 50, by now everyone has more gear

[dreamy cliff]

As for my messiah, 100% CR, 128% CD, +2650 Attack

66 speed

[upbeat breach]

Cant compare the damage of the two, you also dont want to change the turn order at all

[tardy ridge]

gigachad khloros diting vs virgin sania fangus

😭

its ok tho they are equally invested

wait

they arent

[upbeat breach]

same amount of skill up

[tardy ridge]

no they are not man

i said the skill ups above

[upbeat breach]

you can still use khloros for pvp meanwhile sania is useless for anything pvp related

[valid zephyr]

Also @ornate moth John is the perfect example of someone salty not actually giving constructive feedback

[tardy ridge]

she isnt even bad in pvp rn man

LMAO

[upbeat breach]

you dont need a maxed khloros, that is the thing

[surreal bobcat]

has anyone tried using only silence as their cc for doki inferno?

[upbeat breach]

sania is not bad in pvp? lol

[tardy ridge]

and yet that guys team is only 80% succeed on auto

weird

sania 5* full tema can auto it 100% rate

[upbeat breach]

80% win rate at lv 50 with 1 week gear

[valid zephyr]

He is literally bulldozing into being salty about him having no SSania and ignoring everything else

[ornate moth]

IMO he is pointing out the flaws in the arguments of ppl who are trying to justify the current balance being acceptable

[warped stump]

sania teams do not auto lol

[tardy ridge]

they literally can and are

[upbeat breach]

They can, but it is a lot more annoying to setup

[ornate moth]

ppl with ssania are saying it's fine because you can barely squeak by a clear on one of the fights ppl cheese with ssania if u have this exact setup, with much more investment than the ssania team

[warped stump]

sure if you invest a bunch of 6*s but the stats required to auto are significantly higher than just manual runs

[tardy ridge]

how am i salty

i have the units

and im not even insulting them even tho id like to

[ornate moth]

the stats required for non-ssania teams are much higher tho

[tardy ridge]

because they are being very stupid

[scarlet quartz]

its possible stop crying inferno barely needs a nerf

[upbeat breach]

that is 100% true

[warped stump]

yeah, she does make it easier even though you need to be ungodly tanky but full auto sania team is definitely not the same as the 5* full manual sania team in reqs

[valid zephyr]

Yea but the thing is that there will always be team comps that are cheaper to build but clears more easily. Its just simply impossible to be perfect balanced. Sure inferno is overtuned right now with too high a barrier for entry. But you cant just discount the fact that people who have invested into other comps have cleared.

[ornate moth]

and my main point is that casuals who don't do research are going to hit 50, get walled, and bounce off the game. They are not gonna look up some specific comp and build the exact perfect units to get a clear on the farming content

[scarlet quartz]

It is not even close

it is not anywhere near close nor reasonable

it's taking as stroll or climbing fucking mount everest

[tardy ridge]

ive mentioned lian should clear the boss and people just go haha

[warped stump]

...you want casuals to be able to throw 5 random units at the boss and win at the highest difficulty?

[tardy ridge]

who said that

[upbeat breach]

To be honest I think they will get walled even earlier

[scarlet quartz]

random 5*s?

[tardy ridge]

who said 5 random units

[scarlet quartz]

the main FIRE DPS SSR we get for free

[ornate moth]

"the thing is that there will always be team comps that are cheaper to build but clears more easily" this is true but also feels bad faith because it's really downplaying the gap between ssania clears and non-ssania clears

[royal otter]

Farming content btw

[scarlet quartz]

shouldnt be able to clear true!

[dreamy cliff]

That's the thing anyone playing gacha game WILL do research to figure out what team they need to clear stuff, and pretty soon. most content creator will have the answer to F2P friendly teams for all content

[warped stump]

I cannot think of a single game where you don't have to follow a guide to clear endgame farming content

[drowsy gust]

When the game shoehorns everyone into investing into her damn right she should. Especially if you're someone who doesn't watch youtube or come to discord doesn't know she should be reset or when they're playing the reset is gone

[tardy ridge]

max skilled full team with lian dps carry is not beating terrormaton

[upbeat breach]

I dont think casuals are supposed to be able to touch hell 4 at 50 either

[tardy ridge]

respecting the mechanics

only artisan buff increasers can

[upbeat breach]

nevertheless inferno

[scarlet quartz]

they should if they know what they are doing

some know but they are doing and cant cause of units

[upbeat breach]

if they know what they ar edoing they are not casuals

[scarlet quartz]

oh shit didnt pull khloros

go next

[ornate moth]

no they won't because the boss HP, damage and soft enrages are way too overtuned for an ez f2p friendly team to get auto battle clears of the farming content

[scarlet quartz]

oh you didnt pull diting?

[tardy ridge]

no mia? guess ur cooked

[scarlet quartz]

go next gacha

[upbeat breach]

mia for what?

lol

[tardy ridge]

oh boy

[scarlet quartz]

oh u wanted to be mindful and not burn all your pulls at the start of the game? good luck next game

[tardy ridge]

we dont even know

no more talking to this 1

🥀

[drowsy gust]

then why the hell is it unlocked at 50. Isn't it reasonable to have the expectation that unlocking something means being able to do it? Obviously not all games do this but it feels like most games let you do things the moment you unlock it

[royal otter]

You dont need specific teams to beat farming content in other games. You do need to beat endgame.

[scarlet quartz]

Ah if u wanna be doing inferno u need 70% of the SSR roster at release

unlucky dude

[valid zephyr]

Also to be fair right I dont think casuals are a good example to support the problem right now. Because casuals arent gonna clear it even if it was slightly nerfed so normal comps can clear. Casuals that are going to quit just because they hit a 50 wall need the level to be dumbed down to where you drop 5 random levelled units and can also clear

[ornate moth]

most of the CCs who actually do research and played beta etc. and aren't using dot cheese are not even close to inferno clears. What makes u think they will be able to find consistent f2p strats for inferno

[upbeat breach]

because there is a minority that can clear at 50 and that is it

they shouldnt even be level gated to start

It should be all open since the start

[upbeat breach]

most CCs have no idea how to play the game

[ornate moth]

well IMO it's up to devs to decide the sweet spot for a nerf, where clearing inferno still requires strategy & investment but not at the current ridiculous level

[scarlet quartz]

like in the beta

agreed

[warped stump]

...yes you do, in both e7 and sw (the games eternia's pve grind is modeled after) you need to follow guides and build specific teams to be able to clear the farming content dungeons

[upbeat breach]

beta inferno was garbage

anything could clear it

[warped stump]

i do think inferno needs a touch down in difficulty but not nerfing it to the point where you can scramble whatever with moderate shells and runes to farm it

[frozen stone]

Even the Chinese brothers are struggling

[ornate moth]

if u tell average joe shmoe playing etheria restart that in order to go from hell IV to inferno terrormaton he needs to max out 4 artisan shells, max all skills on kazami kazuyo and take her to 5/6 stars, max s3 cachi the guard, pull mia, and build holden to get the next difficulty clear

[upbeat breach]

I had no idea about the mechanics in beta because you could use the same team to clear everything

[outer falcon]

no you don't

[ornate moth]

do u think he will be like "oh cool" or do u think he will quit and play something else

[tardy ridge]

im confused who has said they want to go in with budget units and clear the content

[drowsy gust]

Except in e7 they literally just hand you all the units you need and the gear to put on them ingame without the need to go on youtube

[valid zephyr]

No I agree. I just dont think using casuals is a good example. Because those same casuals will quit because inferno has some specific requirements and they need to build some new unit like a dispeller for terrormaton to clear

[outer falcon]

you can follow some guides, sure, but the game handholds you through building teams and there's significant possible variation in endgame gear farming dungeon teams (in sw)

also, the standard teams are free to build after like 2 days

[tardy ridge]

the developers also killed every single guide people made for the game btw

[scarlet quartz]

inferno needs to take a 20-25% hit on the nerf or the game is going EOS in the next 3 months

[warped kestrel]

The units used in those games to clear the farming dungeons are all free units, often given and encouraged to build by the game, ensuring that every player can actually start playing the game (start farming) for what actually matters - PvP

[warped stump]

yeah, i do think this is where they need to improve a bit, actually giving us some units

guaranteed

[ornate moth]

you should be able to clear if u have good investment in your units and build a reasonable team comp to address the boss mechanics - a dispeller, sustain, dps, correct elements etc.
You should not need to know about some exact niche SR or SSR u need to use
Lian should be able to clear inferno fights where her element isn't disadvantage

[tardy ridge]

we have the unit

lian

[warped stump]

but i do not think they will nerf inferno a shit ton lol

[tardy ridge]

but she cant do it

[scarlet quartz]

or they make it easy so u can clear it with most shit you naturally get through a couple summons

[upbeat breach]

e7 wasnt like that at all, it took years for them to change it

[scarlet quartz]

Elson Tieria wyvern 10 on game release

true!

wasnt like that at all

[tardy ridge]

e7 wasnt like that but you still had rgb units clearing the content

[outer falcon]

Lian was clearly purpose-built to clear Terror and give players a foundation and then they said "actually, go fuck yourself" and destroyed turn manipulation while doing whatever the hell they did to the HP and damage

[tardy ridge]

cachi the guard isnt rgb

lily and sania arent either

[upbeat breach]

O wait, I marked the wrong answer lol

[scarlet quartz]

very based very true this guys knows what he is talking about

[drowsy gust]

Etheria is better than e7 on launch isn't the flex people think it is

[upbeat breach]

Was supposed to mark the person that said they gave all the units for pve content in e7

[scarlet quartz]

little correction lian turn steal works at full percentage on terror

[warped stump]

yea they killed turn manipulation because marvell instead of target nerfing him to stop him from trivializing all the content

[scarlet quartz]

trivializing all the repeatable daily content u are meant to full auto and go jerk off

what a terrible thing

to change

[outer falcon]

is that so? that's interesting, shouldn't it not?

[tardy ridge]

id hate to clear the farming content and do the real content like ember trek

😔

[scarlet quartz]

no there is a distinction between "turn steal - lian" and "turn meter- marvell"

[clever tapir]

Holy, i swear this same debate happens every single day. Just chillout and wait

[warped stump]

id hate to do ember trek while also working on clearing endgame content

[ornate moth]

in beta solid investment Lian + a team of units that address the main mechanics with some investment could clear inferno terror & shell bosses. Which is exactly where it should be. Then they nerfed lian's turn steal and buffed the crap out of the inferno bosses and now they guide u to invest in a brick unit who can't clear the hardest difficulty FARM content even with max dupes lv 50 and 5/5/5 skills + great gear

[warped stump]

oh wait

[clever tapir]

Or just look at the damn pins

[outer falcon]

do you know if that includes Marvell S1 steal?

[warped kestrel]

This, Lian was clearly meant to be a character that would carry you all the way even into Inferno Terro, giving you the foundation to gear up and farm all PvE. Nerfing Lian's use in Terro and buffing Terro to a point where Lian is unusable is the biggest oversight on something this* critical that I've ever seen in any of these games.

[scarlet quartz]

if it clearly says steal it works if it doesnt it doesnt

[drowsy gust]

Ember Trek, Ethernet Rally, and Anisync Echoes is shit content. Real gamers enjoy inferno farming

[outer falcon]

good to know, good looking out

[upbeat breach]

Problem with lian on terror is that you cant focus with S2 at all, so it is a pain in the ass. She used to be BIS in the old betas but it is hard now

[mental mural]

It's bad in this aspect

[scarlet quartz]

She should be a small step in efficiency and gear requirement below Khloros as a solo dps for terror

[warped stump]

anisync echoes is done once then never again, ember trek and ethernet rally are done once a month so if you can clear those week 2 then you're just gonna sit there like damn all i can do now is log in and do rta

[ornate moth]

these teams should be able to still clear terrormaton inferno with proper investment. They can't anymore

other than the ssania one lol

[tardy ridge]

its a gacha game tf do you want from it

[drowsy gust]

And?

[clever tapir]

Why is lian clearly meant for inferno terror?

[scarlet quartz]

u do not want the playerbase to have to sit there everyday manualing inferno for 5 hours

[drowsy gust]

Isn't that the point of the game?

[tardy ridge]

do you want it to be endless

spoiler: no game is

[carmine palm]

first gacha?

[scarlet quartz]

is your brain working?

[upbeat breach]

I think the thing with khloros is that he can cast 3-4 S3 during the fight, so he can spike the damage

[warped stump]

8 years of summoners war so nah

pretty used to actually taking time to build teams for content

[tardy ridge]

the hyperlink quests?

use lian to clear terrormaton

[outer falcon]

at least you don't have to wait 3 weeks after reset to do ember trek like you did if you didn't want to blow massive amounts of energy on toa in sw

[tardy ridge]

didnt see a single 1 for aurora or doki

[scarlet quartz]

she is a free fire dps u get the first thing u do after u exit story lock is hit terrormaton

[warped kestrel]

She is given to you by the game and they force you to build her with Terror-related missions. She is very clearly meant to be the character that will carry you through that specific content (as well as the main story) - not something new in these games, they all do that with their "starter" unit.

[clever tapir]

Lian is a aoe tho, not a single target hitter

[scarlet quartz]

doesnt matter

[clever tapir]

The quests stopped in hard

Not inferno quest

[scarlet quartz]

?????

Nah

[tardy ridge]

it stopped in nightmare

we are ragebaiting

[scarlet quartz]

it has to be ragebait

[tardy ridge]

just say you have no eyes

[outer falcon]

she's hybrid AoE who focuses damage down on her S2 after you eliminate the boss arms

[clever tapir]

Fine nightmare then cuz i dont remember

[outer falcon]

you can see how they initially conceived of the fight

[upbeat breach]

But she does carry your for most of the terror fights

[ornate moth]

players are supposed to just figure out on their own that the starter unit they guide you to use vs terrormaton & shell bosses will fall off endgame and to invest in something totally different?

[clever tapir]

Looool resulting to personal attacks already

[scarlet quartz]

yeah all but the important ones

[drowsy gust]

Think about this, you're some casual who doesn't watch youtube. The game tells you to invest in Lian a little and you keep on investing in her you don't know to reset her or there probably isn't even a reset happening at the time they're playing

[scarlet quartz]

seems fine to me

[warped kestrel]

What's your point? You think they just designed Lian and those quests to take us to hard and then let us spend years figuring out how to do terro? (SSania is obviously an oversight)

[tardy ridge]

thats a personal attack? f

you have come in here trolling people every time i tune in

and ur a sania lily player and hit people with skill issue

[clever tapir]

Well yea? Its was a bit noticible how lian fell off cuz she was a aoe at least for me

[tardy ridge]

u are the problem

[upbeat breach]

Starting units are not usually that great. Gray is the only one that can still do his job, but he is still outshined quite easily

[scarlet quartz]

But what if they just require you to pull Khloros! oh wait u need diting as well for him to even work

[warped stump]

so the solution is to buff lian

[scarlet quartz]

???

line him up

i cant

[warped stump]

so she can clear the content?

[tardy ridge]

someone needs a list

of who not to respond to

[upbeat breach]

no, they need to slightly nerf inferno and that is it

[tardy ridge]

rcokuidiot top of the list

[clever tapir]

My point is not all games give a character straight from the start meant to go all thr way to the highest difficulty. Theres games i played where they simply didnt

[warped stump]

i could see a slight nerf to inferno

[warped kestrel]

Yeah, starter units shouldn't be great, on PvP. Starter units should definitely get you through all of the PvE content, since that's the bare minimum content you need to overcome to actually start getting into the moneymaker content(PvP).

[warped stump]

and a lian buff at the same time to make terror a bit easier with the fire unit given to you

[clever tapir]

Lol check the damn pins

[tardy ridge]

check the pins for what

[upbeat breach]

They shouldnt let you clear freaking inferno dungeons lol

[tardy ridge]

i have the units to clear inferno

[ornate moth]

IMO It is fine if Lian is not the ideal unit to clear inferno terror/sharon etc. But it should be possible if you invest in her. She literally can't right now

[tardy ridge]

how about YOU use them instead of sania lily

[warped kestrel]

Yeah sure, there is a game with every kind of weird quirk. The 2 games that were mentioned though - Summoners War and E7, both give you units that will take you through all of the PvE content.

[drowsy gust]

Brother, e7 a direct competitor to Etheria does this

[outer falcon]

starter cachi is mildly slept on except insofar as he needs the most expensive resource in the game to build him

[upbeat breach]

After dont know how many years

[ornate moth]

obviously khloros would be better than lian for terror if u pull him and invest. But Lian should still be usable endgame PVE farming content if u commit to her

[scarlet quartz]

But it didnt do so 10 years agoooo!!!!

[warped stump]

idk i'm thinking that people are doing the same thing they always do and complaining that content that isnt easy to clear the moment you touch it needs to be gutted until it's super trivial

[clever tapir]

Stopped playing after the dragon lady came out and i dont remember been too long

[scarlet quartz]

real and true you are right

never stop being yourself Nuparu

[warped stump]

i won't :)

[tardy ridge]

keep being great

[upbeat breach]

R skill ups are not that expensive at all

[warped stump]

been here, seen this multiple times, its all the same

[warped kestrel]

Why not? This is an autobattle gacha game with a PvP-focus, PvE dungeons are just autobattle content, it's not meant to be something you spend years overcoming, they want us in PvP first and foremost.

[warped stump]

from 'steel fortress is unclearable who designed this shit' to a new game 'terror is unclearable who designed this shit'

[clever tapir]

How about you get a life

[upbeat breach]

every single inferno fight has a mechanic that you either respect or die

[outer falcon]

they have a massive opportunity cost as a single-source item from a time-sensitive store that offers other items which are much more relevant to most accounts

[scarlet quartz]

damn u got him

shieet

[tardy ridge]

now we're being a hypocrite when i didnt even insult you

[upbeat breach]

YOu also dont need years to to inferno runs lol

[tardy ridge]

nice

[dreamy cliff]

Have most of yall E7 & SW players played when the game launched? I played SW during Launch & Beta and let me tell you, for people to clear the hardest dungeons efficiently and in a good timer maner, it took over a month. when ToA was cleared it took A LOT of poeple brain storming. for those who doesn't know what ToA is, it's the equivalent to Ember Trek. And even then most teams weren't consistant & safe for GB10 (equivalent of inferno) back then. Game will Evolve. come on guys we're 2 weeks in the game and all I see if the same 10 people crying over and over again

[clever tapir]

Lol u already did

[scarlet quartz]

wowowowow there

[warped kestrel]

Yeah, the mechanic doesn't matter, we're talking about the units, you're obviously going to respect the mechanic, that's a given.

[upbeat breach]

but you still have enough currency to get it

[ornate moth]

1. Shadow sania players can instantly jump into inferno and clear with barely any investment. So the "isn't easy to clear the moment you touch it" only applies to plebs who don't have her
2. It's daily farming content. Yes it's the highest difficulty, maybe it should take a little while for the average to player to clear after hitting 50, but you should not need max investment in extremely specific units to even get a clear, and u should not need to be doing manual battles to burn your daily stamina

[scarlet quartz]

Yes E7 wyvern bis was 4 R/SR units

[warped stump]

i had to follow a specific guide and do 5 minute runs for giants lmao

[outer falcon]

yeah man, and I quit for 4 years until they made the game playable

[scarlet quartz]

crazy

[warped stump]

good times

[upbeat breach]

Cant respect the mechanic if the unit has nothing to do with it

[dreamy cliff]

Exactly

[tardy ridge]

still is 😭

[ornate moth]

Ember trek is not the same as daily gear farming content

[tardy ridge]

well i guess SS bellona

[dreamy cliff]

Game was always playable. I been playing SW since the very start

[nova island]

i really hope they do something so i can see builds to aspire to rather than all inferno recent records being lily/sania

[warped kestrel]

The free units the game give you should be designed to beat the PvE content, so they must obviously be designed to overcome the mechanics.

[outer falcon]

it absolutely was not unless you have specific neurological adaptations which isn't a bad thing but you need to recognize your abnormality

[scarlet quartz]

now u dont touch it unless u are downbad for reforge mats lol

[dreamy cliff]

I'm talking for any content, even gear farming dungeon in general. Farming GB10 took 5-7 minutes in average and was not even close to 100% Safe. It also took 1 month for someone to make a 5-7 minutes team

[upbeat breach]

They are designed to beat story mode and that is it. Have you ever played any gacha in your life?

[clever tapir]

Check the pins man... u dont need ssania maybe u need lily but u can find one that doesnt

[dreamy cliff]

anything befoer that was 10+ minutes with 50% sucess rate

[upbeat breach]

That is because it is the fastest team

[tardy ridge]

need a pin to not read a single message from @clever tapir

[nova island]

i dont have lily ssania, never said it was unbeatable, said its sad seeing all recent clears being her

[warped stump]

so the other thing i'm reading is that they should have made inferno unlock at 65 or something so that people farm level 4 for good modules before being allowed into the content which requires good modules

*and terror could use a touch down + lian up so it's doable without specific units

[ornate moth]

that seems different than our current situation where 1 team can do it in 1 minute with low investment

[warped kestrel]

Yeah, I've spent the last 10 or so years playing Summoners War, and some years playing E7, they both give you free units that are designed specifically to beat all of the PvE content so you can jump into PvP as soon as possible.
Have you ever played any gacha in your life? It doesn't sound like you have.

[upbeat breach]

They should just remove the minimum level and that is. Like that people cant cry that they cant do it the moment they unlocked it

[outer falcon]

sw also launched with no pity, no autorepeat, no background farming, no RTA, full energy loss on stage loss, rune removal costs (still in the game to some extent)

[warped stump]

honestly also true

[clever tapir]

True but shes just the fastest

[dreamy cliff]

Not at all. there was a single team that was used to clear GB10 in 10 minutes with 50% success rate. Then 1 month later someone made another team for 5-7 minutes runs that had about 80% success rateç

[upbeat breach]

e7 giving the units to do the content?loooool

[clever tapir]

Get a life

[mental mural]

Unnecessary

[tardy ridge]

oh baby another 1

keep em comin buddy

[ornate moth]

higher inferno unlock level would possibly be a good move, only problem is if u can't preview the fight u don't know which units to be working on. And cat's out of the bag now, they can't really raise the level now

[tardy ridge]

you are really cool

[upbeat breach]

You had to run really specific comps to do any farming dungeon

[outer falcon]

there is 0 reason why anyone should look to the launch of summoner's war and say "hey, this isn't too bad because think about how it was back then!"

It's 2025 grandpa

[dreamy cliff]

Game is still in the very early stage, everyone only built the same units, we need much more brainstorming & testing before we can efficently clear inferno with relatively fast timers

[clever tapir]

Thats in sw too tbh

[warped kestrel]

Yes, E7 gives you Sigret and other units to build your first Wyvern team, accompanied by a set of quests that lead you to it. Have you never played it or something?

[upbeat breach]

Would stop with this bullshit that you cant farm at 50

[nova island]

and the least investment, and obviously all that anyone is using (i check the recent clears often)

[true trench]

how do you respect the mechanic of ramping terror damage if your damage dealer(s) arent insane pumpers? i am aware of the amber stacking cheese strat but imo its one of the first mechanics that could use some tuning/changing

[outer falcon]

not anymore

[drowsy gust]

Brother e7 straight up gives you the units to do banshee, wyvern, and golem now along with a full 6 piece gear to put on each and every one of them

[scarlet quartz]

raise the level to not have khloros or ssania by then and end it all

[warped stump]

yeah so they should copy the sw path and make a guide/walkthrough to build a full team for giants instead

[mental mural]

Inferno terrormaton shadow sania no lily recommendations?

[ornate moth]

yeah... that's way different than our current situation where ssania team can immediately clear in 1 minute the moment u hit lv 50 if you have the DoT team setup. The 10 minute 50% success rate teams are for everyone without ssania

[clever tapir]

I recently played tho? Its hard to get to abyss without a team u build for it no?

[warped stump]

but remember, that guide/walkthrough was based on a team that took several years for people to actually learn is the most optimal early game path

[upbeat breach]

Now yes, after years. Early on E7 didnt give you all the units for it at all

[outer falcon]

summoner's way is elite tutorial content, yeah. they currently lead the pack on UX in that regard

[scarlet quartz]

Abyss is absolutely irrelevant in e7

[upbeat breach]

You tried playing E7 on launch?

[clever tapir]

Im talking about sw

Not e7

[outer falcon]

you can build an abyss team for the dungeon of your choice in 2 days max

[drowsy gust]

and like I said many times, being better than e7 on launch which was 7 YEARS ago is not the flex people think it is

[scarlet quartz]

takesies backsies

[clever tapir]

Spamming stam refreshes? Or just naturally

[outer falcon]

using free energy resources because they shower you in endless energy and mana now

and crystals

[tardy ridge]

can someone wait a month to clear inferno with R units already

[warped kestrel]

Early E7 was shit, that's why they now give you the units, they were tired of average players leaving because they couldn't keep up with low QoL.

[tardy ridge]

we are waiting

[upbeat breach]

They literally gave you a selector so that you can choose which dungeon you want to farm

[carmine palm]

Guys I'm starting a car company, who's in? Fair warning, you have to start the car with a crank on the front. I know other companies have pushbutton start now, but you need to remember that the Ford Model-T also started with a crank in the front, so it's not a real issue.

[dreamy cliff]

Again, Not at all. there was LD units back then that could clear it in 4 minutes with higher success rates. The exact same situation emerged where people complained about LD being broken and paywalled. then one month later, someone finds a viable team and boom. Not a single complain anymore everyone was happy

Just give it time.

[mental mural]

Interesting
I didn't know that

[upbeat breach]

Yes, this is what I am saying, it took a while for it to get to that point of giving everything and taking players by the hand

[drowsy gust]

And today e7 gives you the entire team plus 6 pieces of gear to put on each and every single one of them

[upbeat breach]

And since when that is good?

[dreamy cliff]

Yes because people are so far a head, thats a "catch up" mechanic

[nova island]

i say most ppl arent saying the content is unclearable.. they are saying lily/ssania can clear is faster with less investment and get ahead... difficulty seems off

[tardy ridge]

why do we want 10 year old games

[upbeat breach]

They did it to let new players "catch up to" to old ones

[clever tapir]

Thats just to help new players catch up man

[tardy ridge]

its 2025

[outer falcon]

I think Etheria should implement gear upgrade fail chances scaling with gear level because that's how it was in the old days

[ornate moth]

the gaming market is more saturated now though. I don't expect people to be as willing to stick with a game where the difficulty of farming content is this high anymore when they can play 100 other games

[warped kestrel]

So what, is Etheria supposed to also bleed countless average players because of no QoL and subhuman-level PvE content before they realize and implement what every other gacha has, gachas they've explicitly said they've copied?

I don't get the logic

[tardy ridge]

e7 release this sw release that

[upbeat breach]

If they gave everything for free here the game would be pure garbage

[tardy ridge]

its 2025

[clever tapir]

They should, people will cry more

[drowsy gust]

Even before e7 started giving you all that free stuff, hunt 13s were not inferno levels of hard

[scarlet quartz]

no it's cause it makes sense nowadays we do NOT want 15 year old game mechanics

in newly launched games

are u all smoking shit

like what

[ornate moth]

there should be an open world where you have to walk to a specific place to enter the dokidoki dungeon

[clever tapir]

??? Its literally called newbie gifts tho?

[upbeat breach]

It is supposed to be a try hard game, not a fucking hoyo garbage

[outer falcon]

maybe you should have to watch an ad every 3 dungeon completions or so

[warped stump]

somewhat challenging, untested early game content is considered a 15 year old game mechanic?

[warped kestrel]

It's supposed to be a competitive PvP game, not a tryhard PvE game.

[tardy ridge]

it was tested in what

4 betas

[warped stump]

it got changed from beta and people are trying to figure out how to solve it now

[tardy ridge]

no testing btw

[warped stump]

it is what it is

[dreamy cliff]

And they will. Other games are old, harder to catch up, this is fresh. I've been slacking so hard on summoner war ever since Etheria came out

[brave heath]

@warped stump what level are you and what lds do you have

[upbeat breach]

And how do you get an edge in pvp? by getting access to more resources early on

[drowsy gust]

The fact that this game is launching with an esports scene off the bat shows pve will always be secondary

[nova island]

you dont want to lose average players... also there is whales who got unlucky and didnt get lily/ssania and are behind f2p who probaly arent gonna stick around (from posts i saw in this discord)

[warped stump]

61, all of them minus heinrich

[scarlet quartz]

i know what stds he has

[nova island]

i hope they make an annoucement soon

[warped stump]

i dont farm terror with shadow sania

[ornate moth]

I like tryhard PVE content. It should be side content and not cheeseable immediately with 1 specific LD unit. Not farming content to gear up for PVP

[brave heath]

ok so you have ssania and lily correct? so you cannot comment on difficulty of most inferno content

[carmine palm]

(it's me)

[brave heath]

as it is virtually a joke with ssania

[upbeat breach]

This is a resource management game. Inferno is overtunned? Yes, but people still shouldnt expect to clear shit without using the brain either

[warped stump]

i do not use shadow sania

[brave heath]

oh im sure

[warped stump]

👍

[brave heath]

post ur inferno hoyan team comp

[tardy ridge]

im shameless i use sania

[brave heath]

and ur terrormaton inferno comp

[dreamy cliff]

Sure I agree to that, clearing content with Ssania is way easier, but it's still clearable with other teams regardless so it's just investing more time in the game. Regardless with 3-4 minutes run you can stil clear 10 refills easily

[warped stump]

i am still working on a team for it!

[warped kestrel]

You get an edge in PvP by drafting skillfully, or by paying a ton of money for max dupe newest meta unit, and in the highest levels of play - both. That's how you get an edge in a PvP gacha, and that's how they make the bulk of their money, not by walling players off of PvE content and making them quit.

[warped stump]

i am farming doki first as it seems easier to farm to get the modules for the other dungeons!

[ornate moth]

I don't think anyone is advocating a nerf so massive that it becomes braindead. Even beta inferno wasn't that braindead

[nova island]

thats the exact problem, there is ppl clearing with little invenst and without using their brain (ssania/lily)

[brave heath]

yes doki is the only well tuned dungeon, aside from maybe making reapplying cc actually refresh the shield break

[upbeat breach]

There are people asking for beta level inferno dude, pet bosses during beta had no mechanic at all, you could ignore everything

[scarlet quartz]

Uhh but actually did u see the one lily beyotin hyper invested strat in beta!

[warped stump]

crazy logic to immediately jump down my throat for owning a unit that i have barely used btw

[tardy ridge]

lily.

[outer falcon]

the only issue with Doki is the general issue of AI targeting being coocoobananas batshit crazy

[brave heath]

if you use ssania, you cannot comment on difficulty of inferno content

[nova island]

this might make doki feel so much better, i would vote for that feedback if u made a thread 🙂

[clever tapir]

I guess u didnt see the constant turn meter push back making the boss unable to fight back

[upbeat breach]

That is a dumb take

[subtle crag]

[brave heath]

no not really, ssania makes it a meme and requires very little investment lol

[scarlet quartz]

Beta inferno was the same way it is now
if u had lily victor beyotin u could oneshot it but it was still clearable using other shit in a reasonable amount of time

[warped stump]

i have been casually farming doki inferno and terror 4 working on my sets so i can work on teams for the other content

as i do not want to manual content

[upbeat breach]

everything could clear inferno in the old beta

[ornate moth]

they already nerfed marvell/kraken combo and made multiple bosses resist turn pushback and I don't see ppl advocating to remove that

[brave heath]

ok so you havent completed or probbaly tried to do any of the other infernos then? lol so why are you saying its only a little challenging

[ornate moth]

this isn't even true lol

[scarlet quartz]

everything reasonable

[warped stump]

i did not say it is a little challenging where the hell did you read that

[warped stump]

i said it is a challenge and i am having fun trying to work on building teams to overcome it

[nova island]

all infernos should be autoable with multiple team setups endgame imo

[tardy ridge]

could tsukuyomi main dps clear inferno terror

[upbeat breach]

Reasonable but without following all the mechanics of the fight

[clever tapir]

True

[warped stump]

yes it is somewhat challenging, difficulties are variable

[brave heath]

"somewhat challenging" is very different from "a little challenging" i guess?

[upbeat breach]

You could just spam diting/victor in the beta and that was it

[edgy wind]

my guy is onto something

[scarlet quartz]

not without lily or beyotin

[warped stump]

doki isn't too bad, sharon is a unit check, nico and hoyan are the ones ive discovered are giga difficult but i'll keep working on stuff until i can find a solution!

[scarlet quartz]

u wouldnt oneshot u still had to play around the hp check on terror

[ornate moth]

you still needed heinrich for inferno terror or aurora. Still needed to respect the boss element, still needed speed up & down for nico etc.

[brave heath]

nico is actually the 2nd least difficult inferno, and still too hard prob

[scarlet quartz]

U actually just havent played the beta Onoes

[upbeat breach]

Not for pet bosses, you could ignore everything. For terror you just needed dispell, not heinrich

[warped kestrel]

Here's a tip: You can increase the difficulty of the game, even the lower stages such as Nightmare, by removing your gear. This way you can have a very challenging game experience personally, unless the goal is not to have a personally challenging experience, but to impose a challenging experience on others, that is.

[upbeat breach]

I have been playing it since october lol

[ornate moth]

0 people cleared inferno terror with viktor or diting during final beta

[scarlet quartz]

sure buddy

[upbeat breach]

I was talking about the pet bosses

[warped stump]

lol

actually crazy take

[carmine palm]

Surely Onoes you made a feedback thread in beta saying the game was too easy, right? Can you link it to us?

[outer falcon]

I wonder what comps the devs are using for their inferno clears. Someone get C to get us a screenshot

[upbeat breach]

to be honest I did

[warped kestrel]

is it? I see no flaw in it.

[carmine palm]

Let's see it!

[outer falcon]

Surely they're clearing right

[upbeat breach]

how can i find it?

havent they deleted the old beta stuff?

[nova island]

they didnt

[carmine palm]

Nope.

[scarlet quartz]

probably somewhere up your ass

[ornate moth]

but they nerfed marvell and kraken who were super spammed in beta inferno shell bosses. So if we had inferno shell boss difficulty from beta but with those units nerfed, do you think it would still be too easy?

[warped stump]

'the game isnt handed to you on a silver platter, so clearly you are wrong for liking the game requiring a bit of thought and work to get to the end to... add unique 6 cost modules to the drop pool?'

[tardy ridge]

i hope nuparu creates the new meta breaking inferno teams not copying a single 1 of the others

i'll be waiting

a year from now

[warped kestrel]

But wait, I thought the issue here was that you wanted a challenging game experience? Again, you can have a challenging game experience even in Nightmare difficulty if you just take off your gear. Why is it part of your mission in this game to make it harder for others rather than yourself?

[brave heath]

some people either havent attempted the content or are ssania abusers, if they defend it

or just simply delusional

[ornate moth]

the game doesn't require thought and work to get to the end if u have shadow sania lol

[upbeat breach]

everyone is saying that they need to nerf inferno, but not on the same level

[tardy ridge]

people are using the 2 units trivializing the content and still complaining about it being overtuned

i just dont understand how people are defending it

[clever tapir]

Untrue u need to figure out the speed order

[brave heath]

ok so if its universally agreed upon that inferno should be nerfed, whats ur suggestion? @upbeat breach

[mental mural]

We should get this pinned

[pearl knot]

brains not working right

[warped stump]

...if you can't see the difference between artificial limitations and actually attempting to do the content before calling for a nerf then idk what's what here

[nova island]

i am not even saying that, they need to do something about the situation... buff units, nerf bosses, lily banner something

[gilded mirage]

Guys I admit defeat, Shadow Sania is OP for NicoNana /s

https://www.reddit.com/r/Etheria_Official/comments/1lgb0cd/s_sania_and_niconana_inferno_bug/

[tardy ridge]

@ornate moth yeah bro you need to make your lily the fastest unit

[gilded mirage]

Literally can't lose

[tardy ridge]

it takes a lot of brain power

[warped stump]

if i get to the end, grind it out and then realize i still can't do the content with solid runes and teams, then i'll admit i may have been cooked

[upbeat breach]

nerf boss stats by 10-15%

[pearl knot]

whales with full dupe teams are complaining what are you even talking about

[mental mural]

@warped stump @upbeat breach @clever tapir if people are complaining just let them instead of engaging with them
This isn't the thread for that

[scarlet quartz]

20

take it or leave it

[tardy ridge]

arent you 11 lvls past

[nova island]

whales with full dupe teams (no lily/sania) r not even getting close to killing some bosses 🙂

[tardy ridge]

that is 11000 stamina btw

[warped stump]

yes, and i worked on a dokidoki team and i made one!

[tardy ridge]

ELEVEN THOUSAND

[gilded mirage]

what... what happens if they leave it

[brave heath]

personally think thats bad i am more of the opinion you keep hp the same and nerf damage by like 30%

[mental mural]

40% is where im at

[warped kestrel]

We are calling for a nerf because the content is ridiculously overtuned, but that's not what we're discussing right now, I'm trying to understand your motivation to want to keep content extremely difficult, when there is a very easy alternative that allows you to make content very hard for yourself and only yourself. This exposes that your motivation is not actually to have hard content, but to have hard content for others, while you presumably enjoy an overpowered comp of LD SSRs that allows you to auto the content with no strategy involved.

[brave heath]

i think the hp on inferno is chill

[scarlet quartz]

idk

[brave heath]

just not the damage

[scarlet quartz]

just revert it back to beta it was fine

[upbeat breach]

20% is waaay too much, it would reduce niconana speed by 50+

[tardy ridge]

do we not understand how insane that is

you are 11000 stamina past lvl 50 and cant clear the content

[clever tapir]

sure let this thread become a crying thread instead of team comps to actually beat inferno nice

[tardy ridge]

how are we defending this

[gilded mirage]

But yeah base damage and ramp up damage need a few nerfs to allow for more teams that can go slow

[tardy ridge]

😭

[scarlet quartz]

always has been a crying thread

[warped stump]

this is endgame content to farm one extra module slot for stats lol

[fossil kayak]

Its supposed to have equally viable units like they bragged about it in their show a few months ago. Also HP sponge Bosses is not something I would call difficulty.

[clever tapir]

u know what ur right nvm

[brave heath]

me putting in a diting and watching it get targetted by the boss 1 time and realizing its dead instantly 😦

[mental mural]

With less arguments it'll be better

[brave heath]

my bad lemme go triple hp diting so it can live with 20%

[ornate moth]

I have posted possibly more inferno team comps here than anyone but ssania defenders keep coming to the thread to insult everyone as whiners and say the difficulty is fine we just are entitled and wanting ez clears without investing in units etc

[nova island]

there is NO consistant way to beat hoyon inferno without lily and ssania as far as im aware.. if this is true there isnt much to talk about...

[tardy ridge]

am i crazy for thinking 11000 stamina after hitting 50 should be able to clear the content

[ornate moth]

🙂

[clever tapir]

im only coming back here to find a reng and sharon clear, but only see whiners

[tardy ridge]

am i on crack

[gilded mirage]

The big question is if its actually better drops. I'll be tallying my drop statistics haha. Well, more like just the averages of my continuous runs so we can see what Inferno droprate is like. Idk if anyone will do that for Hell IV though

[ornate moth]

reng is fine u can look at recent clears cause it's dot immune

[nova island]

you think thats consistant?

[tardy ridge]

its a joke

[ornate moth]

no im just memeing about how ridiculous the contrast is

[clever tapir]

ik that, im trying to find a team comp for him

[mental mural]

Manual or auto
Curious

[tardy ridge]

3 units vs 4 respecting mechanics

[upbeat breach]

I think the issue was the one shot comps, so instead of looking for work arounds they just buffed the stats to the moon and screwed everything

[tardy ridge]

and itt akes 7m longer

[warped stump]

depends if it's 11000 stamina with an optimized clear and strategy book from start to finish (not this one) or just 11000 stamina just farming teams and trying new stuff (this one)

[clever tapir]

unless u mean copy the recent clear ones

[nova island]

not only is it way longer, probably works like 1 in 25 times

[upbeat breach]

4 horrible units not respecting the mechanic

[clever tapir]

i was hoping to find one didnt need much lattice

[sacred mirage]

Any non-ssania niconana cheese develop yet? Other than that one vice team

[ornate moth]

massiah/lily/ling/kloss seems like the best I've seen if u have the units. Otherwise diting/kloss/ling/val probably

[scarlet quartz]

either one feels like sticking your d in a cheese grater

[clever tapir]

tyty

[warped stump]

but idk this is the crying thread, i forgot that i'm not allowed to be content just trying the content and seeing how it is

[tardy ridge]

is that not hoyan

[scarlet quartz]

no kloss acc bricked

unlucky

[finite palm]

How often is recent clears updated?

[warped stump]

i must complain if i cannot farm immediately at 50

[gilded mirage]

Revelation Xiada with Lily, Viper and Healer

[clever tapir]

what about sharon? is it the same as hell just buffed gear?

[ornate moth]

you're allowed to do whatever lol. But people are allowed to say your takes are bad too

[gilded mirage]

And DoT doesn't work anymore...

[tardy ridge]

ok guys

[clever tapir]

i know that

[upbeat breach]

the boss has insane defense, you need a dotter there to kill faster

[nova island]

sharon inferno = no debuffs

[ornate moth]

ppl are mostly running like val/single target dps/buffer + cachi the guard or mia

[clever tapir]

im asking about a team comp for sharon...

[tardy ridge]

11000 stamina is 38 days of waiting for stamina refresh

[ornate moth]

with codex on the cachi/mia

[sacred mirage]

Can I dm you about this? Lmao im at work and chat going too quick

[clever tapir]

ahh i see

[tardy ridge]

do we think that is ok after hitting lvl 50 to not clearn the farming content

[clever tapir]

codex on cachi and mia huh

[tardy ridge]

THIRTY EIGHT DAYS

[gilded mirage]

I don't use it, I'm a filthy DoTter just like my name

[upbeat breach]

I think there was one with marvel rosa obol and someone else

[warped stump]

...do you not crystal refresh?

[warped kestrel]

You are free to enjoy the game however you see fit, I assure you that no one in here cares. But we are also allowed to express how ridiculously overtuned the Inferno dungeons are and request a nerf to the difficulty.

[tardy ridge]

bro you are missing the point

[ornate moth]

viper seems to be the move unless u have rosa. Mio is kinda OP there too

[tardy ridge]

pls just give it up

[gilded mirage]

f2p will start running out of crystal refreshes

[tardy ridge]

38 days

yeah do you not crystal refresh

[nova island]

im lvl 60 and cant clear any infernos cept doki (no lily/ssania)

[tardy ridge]

flying straight over your head

[sacred mirage]

I have Rosa with dupes but she takes a lot of lattice usually

[finite palm]

I cleared inferno nico but it's not showing up yet (on recent clears)

[warped stump]

no i think you're just a mega complainer john, i think there's decent points esp with terror needing a touch down and lian up so she c an do the content the devs pushed her to but otherwise you're just going to complain until terror kills itself for you

[tardy ridge]

ive said those things

[upbeat breach]

have you tried the comps with marvel/mio on codex for nico nana?

[ornate moth]

yeah I'm 59 and can only clear inferno doki & sharon, sharon not auto battle viable yet tho

[tardy ridge]

but you guys are saying the dumbest shit imagineablre

[drowsy gust]

John's point is that if you take away refresh, it'd be the equivalent of someone being like 1 - 2 months into the game

[ornate moth]

what comp?

[sacred mirage]

What team?

[tardy ridge]

i say 38 days of waiting for stam and you hit me with you dont crystal refresh?

[gilded mirage]

Those mobs doing Dispel is just so dirty lmao

[nova island]

working on it, have marvell, skilling up mio and then gotta finish my codex, i feel confident in that one next for sure... i really want to clear hoyon after but i have no working plan for that yet

[ornate moth]

yeah the dispel makes it so RNG lol it's pretty annoying

[clever tapir]

blocked them along time ago, they usually result to personal attacks when they got nothing to say back

[ornate moth]

at least with cachi

[finite palm]

Rosa Mia Kazuyo(Red) Cachi
3 min clear carried by revelation spam lmao

[gilded mirage]

I can finally do it semi-reasonably (4 runs per win) and its because my Diting went from 1/5 => 2/5 lmao

[finite palm]

The boss is so tanky you have to rely on max hp damage

[gilded mirage]

I need to do it 8 more times for Hyperlink

[ornate moth]

dupe?

[clever tapir]

rev on rosa and kaz?

[upbeat breach]

for hoyan you kinda need a dotter and you need to keep the adds always CCed

[uncut mica]

stamina wise sure but those extra 5 weeks are around another 30 SR lattice and 12+ SSR lattice so they will have a lot more options and be stronger on average

[gilded mirage]

Yeah so 3 Ditings in total and 2 dupes.

[ornate moth]

my plan is revelation xiada + viper/lily/lingluo. Saw a clear with that comp that looked promising

[finite palm]

Artisan, it's a variation of the great wall of china comp

[ornate moth]

I don't have rosa or mio

[upbeat breach]

A lot more pulls too

[tardy ridge]

can someone tell me where ive insulted everyone as rockuidiot has said

[clever tapir]

ah

[finite palm]

My Rosa only has 4/5/5 skills and 2 dupes, very relatable

[tardy ridge]

ive wanted to but i withhold

[warped stump]

they unlock highest difficulties early so people who are optimizing a path to it can farm it when it's accessible if they have a team (which most won't early as they're the ones stuck testing a team)

they could just make everything unlock at 100 so even the most casual casual has hopefully farmed hell4 before it but that's just limiting everyone for no reason

they should have just made all difficulties unlock instantly so that there is no 'by level x you should be able to farm it!!' but rather 'when you reach good quality you can farm it'

*terror still needs a touch down though to be absolutely crystal clear

[tardy ridge]

nuparu ive mentioned 38 days and you are still acting like this is ok

but just crystal refresh

[upbeat breach]

better than running someone to take the turns from them?

[warped stump]

yeah i am, levels dont mean shit

[tardy ridge]

dw about it

[nova island]

ppl wiht certain teams r clearing WAY faster than others with less investment, thats the problem...

[warped stump]

yeah dot teams do that when they're not checked

[scarlet quartz]

terror, aurora, niconana, hoyan, sharon, rengokutsu

yeah

[warped stump]

but if they gut the shit out of shadow sania then even more people will be pissed

[scarlet quartz]

no one wants

[ornate moth]

they can't which is why we have advocated overall nerfs

[upbeat breach]

That is normal if you are investing on a pve unit that is shit for pvp. Sania used to be the shitties LD in the game, by far

[finite palm]

Idk, it's just what I had from building the great wall of china comp so I tried applying it here

[scarlet quartz]

ssania to be gutted

[warped stump]

summoners war had this issue and their solution was to not make things easier but to absolutely nuke dot teams from existence

[scarlet quartz]

ssania or dot nerfing is not the solutions here

[warped stump]

same with triple dogs

[scarlet quartz]

far from it

[finite palm]

FFS where is my clear on recent clears? 😭

[nova island]

ya i think its too late for that.... gotta nerf inferno or buff other chars/shells or someting

[carmine palm]

did it get pushed off by all the ssania spam?

[upbeat breach]

She only works on Nico, Hoyan and Terror. It makes no sense to nerf dots at all

[ornate moth]

I honestly don't have an issue with dot team being strong for pve farm. It shouldn't be basically the only reasonable solution thouhg, and shouldn't be able to clear with 10x lower investment than anything else

[scarlet quartz]

that is what i said yes

[finite palm]

Doesn't look like it, the list has stayed the same for a minute or so now

[nova island]

ppl wiht ssania r spamming it, it should refresh instantly, u got knocked off

[upbeat breach]

Diting is used in the rest of the game and not one is complaining that it doesnt make sense at all.

[ornate moth]

I wonder if recent clears aren't updating rn cause I saw exact same list on hoyan for like 10 mins

[finite palm]

But the list is the same every time I refresh

[warped stump]

shouldn't be able to clear with 10x lower investment than anything else
this is not possible

dot teams will either always completely destroy content when optimized/allowed due to the nature of dots or they will not work at all

[scarlet quartz]

SR character, needs lily hell 3-4

[warped stump]

this has been tested in multiple games

[scarlet quartz]

same issue

[warped stump]

and it is always true

[scarlet quartz]

unit variety is terrible for hell4/inferno

[carmine palm]

Plenty of people complain about Diting, it's a massive meme that he's going to get nerfed.

[upbeat breach]

It doesnt, I have no lily and I was doing everything with him

[warped stump]

shadow sania being ld is the main issue though cause normally dot teams are abused with some elemental unit that most people can get

[upbeat breach]

My account was stuck in terror until I pulled him

[ornate moth]

if dots scaled off character stats instead of max hp of the boss, or the boss max HP/damage was reasonable enough for other comps to clear, it would be fine

[scarlet quartz]

using Khloros?

[ornate moth]

what was speed tune, cachi fastest and rosa slowest I assume?

[upbeat breach]

Had no khloros at that time

[finite palm]

Let me screenshot my builds rq

[warped stump]

dot teams never work like that though, unless you fundamentally rework dots which would just be a giga nerf in the end

and then the other solution is to trivialize the content so that dots are on parity because nothing needs investment to clear

[warped kestrel]

The content should be trivialized, this is a competitive PvP game, not some hoyo PvE game.

[upbeat breach]

Khloros was a bit worse to set up after I built him too, diting is just easy mode everywhere. I dont think he should be nerfed either

[scarlet quartz]

Even in genshin u clear shit only using your left nut and 2 fingers

[royal otter]

Comparing an SR to an SSR LD that need minimum investment. More disingenuous arguments being made today, lets goo

[paper dagger]

i've already said this but all the devs need to do is prove they've tested it by showing us clears without lily/ssania

[warped kestrel]

I know, even hoyo games, which have nothing more than PvE going for them, make PvE ridiculously easy.

[ornate moth]

yeah and diting only helps you if you 6 star him with at least 8 lattices and good gear

[upbeat breach]

So? I am saying that sania is used in 3 dungeons and he is used in all the other dungeons of the game.

[warped stump]

hoyo games and most of the pve gacha sphere is just collectors' game though

lol

[paper dagger]

and yeah no one cares about diting because he's an SR that 99% of people have unless you were unlucky. it's reasonable that he's OP for pve

[finite palm]

To be clear: I just first time cleared (Inferno Niconana) with this, no clue how consistent the team is yet

[paper dagger]

lily and ssania are among the rarest characters in the game which is the big problem

[scarlet quartz]

Buff victor back up as well

so there is diting and victor as options

[upbeat breach]

He makes all the other dps units obsolote lol

[ornate moth]

there are still 0 diting clears of inferno aurora too lol

[tardy ridge]

there are

[paper dagger]

@finite palm which stage is this?

[scarlet quartz]

gl killing niconana with diting too

[upbeat breach]

nico inferno

[warped stump]

rosa is easier to do inferno aurora with than diting

[ornate moth]

khloros is far better at terror. Massiah/Rosa/Xiada do better in aurora. Massiah clears rengokutsu faster. etc.

[warped stump]

her sustained damage is so high that it can kill the boss much better than diting can

[warped kestrel]

This is collectors' game AND a PvP game, there's no reason the equipment dungeons need to be hard, that's not what the game's advertised appeal is.

[upbeat breach]

I think someone did, just cant remember the comp

[upbeat breach]

You run both for terror, so it is not exactly better

[paper dagger]

inferno aurora's biggest problem is dealing with curse shield lingluo s3 isn't fsat enough to keep up

[royal otter]

There are more people that have ditting than ssania, you need to properly invest in him and the whole team, you can clear with a 3 team ssania with minimum investment. Come on keep the disingenuous comments coming.

[finite palm]

I'll just put this team on auto and get back when I see how often it clears

[scarlet quartz]

someone -> specific units -> was it auto? -> bad for the health of the game

[sacred mirage]

Is your comp able to auto it?

[scarlet quartz]

oh yeah

u can use diting

[finite palm]

Yes (it's a braindead revelation + artisan spam comp)

[scarlet quartz]

just pull mio out of your ass

[upbeat breach]

Just saying because I really cant remember it, but I saw here

[sacred mirage]

How many lattices in each?

[ornate moth]

solo khloros can clear inferno terror (with giga investment and great wall of china artisan cheese), not solo diting

[warped stump]

part of pvp is optimizing resources is it not

at least when i played sw this was a big fucking point that you need to optimize your resources to farm efficiently (and not every team to farm took the same resources, some took a ridiculous amount for just farming compared to others)

[paper dagger]

the thing with inferno nico is without dots you need to play into its gimmick of speeding up/down

[finite palm]

#1384230665461170346 message

[paper dagger]

viper makes her not that bad

[scarlet quartz]

unit pool especially for SSRs is so incredibly restrictive in inferno that it's an insult to any player

[upbeat breach]

or you just go veronika comp with low investment and do it in 1min lol

[sacred mirage]

Ty

[warped stump]

unit pool needs work agreed

[finite palm]

Not sure how much Rosa lattices matter, it's mostly revelation doing dmg

[royal otter]

Oh and the content where ditting is used you can find other teams quickly while thats not the case with ssania, you wont find other teams with similar investments

[warped stump]

there should be better SRs available to do content with

[paper dagger]

you need really high investment for veronica comp because you have 2 turns or bust

[scarlet quartz]

so just nerf the bosses instead of buffing 80% of the cast

[ornate moth]

needing specifically veronika+khloros OR ssania is barely any better than just needing ssania only. There should be more than a couple viable teams

[scarlet quartz]

its not that deep is it

[arctic plover]

have you played it?

I watched a guy restartign the runs for an hour until they got a 1 minute run

[surreal bobcat]

glad someone is using kazami, she has such a good kit

[paper dagger]

and rosa needs s2 and s3 because otherwise s3 does'nt line up with revelation

[upbeat breach]

if you can do it at lv 50 the investment is not that high

[ornate moth]

also veronika comp is not "low investment"

[warped stump]

lol

[upbeat breach]

No, I saw the video of the first clear on global

[warped kestrel]

In SW the "optimizing resources" part is simply spending 10 years farming the rune dungeons to get perfect substat rolls on Violent/Will sets, and getting devilmons(Yellow Lattices) - The entire point of the game is Arena, RTA, and guild wars, this game's advertisement led me and many others to believe that's also the case for it, and that's why we're here.

[warped stump]

are you sure thats the optimal path

between farming dragons, farming giants, farming raid, farming artifacts

[warped kestrel]

That's the only path.

[warped stump]

you had to do many different things

[upbeat breach]

Cant hit endgame for everything (easily) in the first week of the game, that is not healthy

[warped stump]

five different dungeons + now three different raid bosses

[upbeat breach]

If you want to ignore everything just whale and focus on pvp, simple

[drowsy gust]

We're not asking to finish Ember Trek, Ethernet Rally, or Anisync in the first week

We're asking for the farming to be easier

[warped kestrel]

As a new player you get a generic white artifact set just for the base stats and focus on autoing the rune dungeons for years. The goal is never to make you struggle with those dungeons. The PvE "struggle" if it can even be called that, is in ToA/ToAH, which also become a joke after a couple of months into the game.

[royal otter]

People actually saying gear farming is endgame lol

[scarlet quartz]

while full refreshing everyday

yes

good take

[royal otter]

In a pvp game lmao

[scarlet quartz]

incredibly good take

[upbeat breach]

one thing is being easier and another is being a walk in the park

[ornate moth]

u can only do that if ur whaling gives u shadow sania lol, otherwise ur down 23 speed in PVP

[warped stump]

you start in giants because it's the easiest, then you'd move to dragons, then you'd do R5 and then you'd work on artifact teams and then by that point you might have a baseline

[upbeat breach]

whale more 🤣

[warped stump]

this process took at least a month and then you need to cycle it repeatedly lmao

[upbeat breach]

if you want to have everything ready in one week you should expect to drop a lot of money

[ornate moth]

you can be f2p with shadow sania and have a pvp gear advantage over whales lmao

[sacred mirage]

Tbh I agree a 10-15% reduction in stats is enough given how damage works in this game

[royal otter]

Or get lucky and pull ssania right?

[warped kestrel]

I would agree with this if this game didn't have 10 daily refreshes. Everyone at Inferno has been refreshing 10 times every day, our game progress is actually closer to a month if not more, than it is to a week.

[arctic plover]

if you want to have everything ready in one week play any other pvp game... wait...

[upbeat breach]

Without having the 1k refreshes daily and double of the amount of ssr lattice?

[ornate moth]

f2p can max refresh for like 2 months without having gem issues

[upbeat breach]

F2P wont have advantage over whales at all. Early one is more similar, but it wont be the same at all

[ornate moth]

"double" the ssr lattice is not even close

[upbeat breach]

At least an extra 6 per month

[drowsy gust]

Several of my launch day guildies quit because they just wanted to get the farming out of the way and play pvp. These are dudes that were willing to sit down for hours to play rta

[paper dagger]

whales probably have like 2-3 more gold lattices than me and i spent only $2

[upbeat breach]

You ever opened the shop?

[brave ore]

whales are up like 6-7 plattice rn at least

[paper dagger]

yeah and there's a grand total of like 3 ish lattices there

[upbeat breach]

They had extra 6 in the first 7 days of the game

[ornate moth]

whales having an advantage in a gacha PVP game is not the same conversation as the daily farming content being so overtuned that u need a specific LD SSR to be able to burn your daily stamina on gear without doing 6 minute manual clears 25 times a day

[scarlet quartz]

This inferno issue is causing the core target audience to quit the game and should therefore be addressed immediately? I'm sure that's crazy news for some people here

[brave ore]

3 from level packs, 2 from weekly packs, 1 from massiah bundles, 1 from value selection

1 if you bought hits to hit mythic in ai arena

[brave heath]

btw this isnt true

[royal otter]

Whales can buy 2 lattices per week more than f2p if im not mistaken

[brave ore]

2 for clearing astarte if f2ps cant do that

[carmine palm]

1 from event store too

[brave heath]

pulling a ssania is more common than pulling like, a rosa or mia lol

[drowsy gust]

They were all excited because they saw rta on launch, esports off the bat, and emphasis on pvp. But now they're gone

[upbeat breach]

but it is only 2-3 lattice!!!

[scarlet quartz]

Yeah its a huge issue

[paper dagger]

yeah LD ssr units aren't the rarest in the game?

[ornate moth]

it's like 0.4% vs 0.39% tho or something lol

[upbeat breach]

no

[paper dagger]

nah no way you just said ssania is more common than rosa look at the fucking rates

[brave heath]

they are not the rarest in the game they are infact more common atm than rgb ssrs

[scarlet quartz]

that's why i dont get how people do not have the mental capacity to grasp this issue

[upbeat breach]

you are more likely to get a sania than getting a kloss

[ornate moth]

and with RGBs you can at least selector 1 of them

[scarlet quartz]

pulling on standard getting a ssania is more likely than rosa specifically

[royal otter]

Thats not how % on pulling work lol

[brave heath]

if you pull 10000 times on the permanant banners, you would 5/5 dupe any specific ld faster than any specific rgb unit

[ornate moth]

difference is negligible, but part of the issue is that LDs can't be target banner picks

[arctic plover]

that's actually true.

but rosa and mia are selectable

[upbeat breach]

There is no difference in rarity between RGB and LD on the normal banner

[brave heath]

correct im just stating lily/ssania aren't "rare"

you can't select them tho from target banner is the issue

[royal otter]

You can clearly see the %...

[scarlet quartz]

getting a specific one you are way more likely to hit the LD u want

[brave heath]

or any banner for that matter, its just pure rng

[upbeat breach]

but the pool is bigger for RGB, so the chance per unit is the same

[ornate moth]

"way more" isn't rly accurate but it is very slightly more likely

[brave heath]

but you are statistically more likely to randomly pull a lily or ssania, or any ld for that matter, than you are any specific rgb unit

[brave heath]

it is very slightly more likely yes, not a big diff

point being lds arent like some actual rare thing on this game

[upbeat breach]

This is not like e7 and sw with MLs

[brave heath]

but being locked being 1-3 units for certain bosses, is bad.

[royal otter]

With that logic you are more likely to pull any random rbg than a specific LD

[drowsy gust]

I don't need ml 5s to do wyvern 13

[upbeat breach]

but in e7 the mls are only "needed" for pvp, so it is a different thing

[brave heath]

yes you are obviously more likely to pull any random rgb than a specific ld

thats comparing apples to orange

im comparing apples to apples

xd?

[arctic plover]

it's 0.041667% for ssania and 0.0395% for rosa

lds are 5% more likely right now. Once yeli releases it won't be the case anymore though

[royal otter]

You stated here that its likely to pull a random lily ssania than a SPECIFIC rgb. So same thing

[ornate moth]

yeah that's why specifically khloros+veronika being able to potentially compete with ssania team for terror clear doesn't help the issue much. Since your chance of khloros+veronika is actually lower than lily+ssania when not considering selector

[finite palm]

Guys stop complaining about this already, it's really balanced as long as you abuse hp% dmg/s

[ornate moth]

and doesn't adress hoyan inferno which is the most ridiculous one

[true trench]

you are not 100%ing so therefore its balanced

[brave heath]

no it is not the same thing you clearly cant read or dont understand

[upbeat breach]

And I think we wont pull on the permanent banner anymore, so now it is all up to the banners

[warped stump]

revelation is one hell of a shell lmao

[ornate moth]

not 100% cause it's a non-dot team lul

[finite palm]

2w 2l perfectly balanced

[true trench]

oh didnt see that part

well done

[finite palm]

Revelation is the best thing that has happened to my life

[ornate moth]

im tempted to try xiada+celince dual revelation DPS for doki lol

[arctic plover]

revelation saved etheria /j

[upbeat breach]

50% win rate is actually not that bad in this game, you are only losing 10% of the final energy

[warped stump]

u dont need it on celince

xiada only one who needs it

its absolutely giga insane btw

2 minute clears that arent even close and you just destroy everything in your path

[true trench]

is xiada popping off without lily?

[warped stump]

ya

[true trench]

i want to leave my wheelchair massiah behind hes trash

[scarlet quartz]

losing stamina on a loss is stupid as well

[ornate moth]

yeah ik

[uncut mica]

I get a feeling that Yeli is gonna creep Valerian

[scarlet quartz]

as a side complaint

[ornate moth]

oop why did the thumbnail turn to doki armpit LOL

[upbeat breach]

Nah, I have no issues with that, I am used to losing the full energy

[paper dagger]

how long did it take you to roll for that blade of oddity lol

[brave heath]

ye i thought that was kinda weird l0l

[scarlet quartz]

Doesnt make it a better system

in a game with innate resistance to debuffs

losing stamina on a loss is bad design

[upbeat breach]

We do need a good light healer

[warped stump]

i saw a 2 minute team with xiada, tsukiyo mi, freya, valerian and kazuyo

all rgb units

(+valerian)

[ornate moth]

not as long as you would expect tbh. Maybe like 20 rerolls.
Meanwhile I've spent like 2 mil rerolling for a red speed on support shells and only gotten gold

[true trench]

iirc tsuki is a speed buffer and i dont have one 😭

crippled legs build

[upbeat breach]

It is part of the gamble, so you need to run comps that are less likely to get screwed by the 10%. That is the disadvantages of one shot comps. On the other hand, we should be able to run longer and more stable comps

[scarlet quartz]

requiring 3 specific SSRs is not bad at all true

[upbeat breach]

For doki? No def down?

[warped stump]

xiada brings it herself + pure revelation abuse

[ornate moth]

xiada def breaks on her own + revelation true damage

[carmine palm]

I'm over 6m, best I've ever gotten is 12 speed gold, my account is super bricked

[upbeat breach]

I will try it tomorrow

[ornate moth]

brutal

[warped stump]

soon we'll have a singularity with the goalpost sliding + this is just one team i saw run well

[carmine palm]

I could have leveled like 6 more artisans

[surreal bobcat]

im probably around that if not more, purple speed is all i got

[upbeat breach]

But you need skill up on her s3 for decent def down chance right? otherwise it is quite low

[paper dagger]

shell rerolling needs a rework what's the point of that other currency lol

there is absolutely zero way to ever run out of that thing before training data

[warped stump]

idk i just saw them mash s3 and the adds went from healthy to almost completely dead

[scarlet quartz]

u need to invest in xiada regardless if u wanna use her

[ornate moth]

tbh doki is the only inferno in a good state, maybe aurora or rengo too I haven't tested those enough. But seems like decent team variety

[warped stump]

i think most ppl say u need s2 at least

[upbeat breach]

It used to be the other way around in the first beta, we had a lot of the first and nothing of the second, so it was more balanced

[upbeat breach]

I know you need to max S2, but S3 too?

[scarlet quartz]

agreed, only a tiny touch to hp is needed

[ornate moth]

yes

[carmine palm]

for high scores I guess

[scarlet quartz]

ye

[true trench]

doki is fine because you can bring gray

[upbeat breach]

Rip, I wanted to save a bit of the skill ups

[ornate moth]

inferno prob clearable with only s2 max but I imagine the consistency would be quite bad

[scarlet quartz]

@ornate moth currently a bit too hard to get ril to oneshot wave 1

[ornate moth]

and u would still need good modules/shell + good gear on others

[scarlet quartz]

other options with revelation are in a good spot

[warped kestrel]

Shhhh, don't give them any ideas.

[upbeat breach]

I will test without the s3 and if it is shit I will go for s3

[ornate moth]

hmm yeah I have heard from ril users that it is a struggle to get her setup working

[warped stump]

isnt rila designed for oneshot team

why not run one of the lower stat requirement revelation teams

[paper dagger]

maybe you could use that other thing to transplant a passive from one shell to another idk

[scarlet quartz]

true

just pull every SSR for doki

u are so smart

[warped stump]

ok nvm you're just a serial whiner

[scarlet quartz]

?

[upbeat breach]

They need to rebalance a bit. We used to be able to have a lot of max leveled pets because we had no currency to keep rerolling

[warped stump]

keep complaining mate

[scarlet quartz]

I have the options

its just not reasonable

[upbeat breach]

Not we can reroll but dont have the left currency for anything

[scarlet quartz]

to assume people

have every option

[warped kestrel]

We can already do that via imprint, let's just... forget about that so they don't double/triple the requirement of those things

[ornate moth]

[carmine palm]

Yea I wish it was shell training data OR reconfig chips.

[warped stump]

theres like 3 or 4 giga revelation abusers though LOLLL

[paper dagger]

@warped kestrel i meant like, i rolled red healing effect on my dps shell so i want to give it to my healer shell. not imprinting