suggestion-discussion

[arctic lagoon]

wait is it? i mean like full on model changes or such, unless that IS a thing??? i dont remember anyone discussing that

[strong cedar]

no, but different rarities have different designs to set them apart. The shields ofcourse are easiest to tell, but pretty much every other weapon has distinct features. Do you mean customization?

[arctic lagoon]

OH wait those are full on named weapons, i see now, i was suggesting more for the normal weapons to just have more visual flavor but those ones are def harder ones to get https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Uniques#Axes-0

[strong cedar]

beside that, all rarities of a longsword for example look different at each stage

[arctic lagoon]

I was kinda saying just slighter differences, sure I understand weapons of the same color can have different values but i was thinking more apparent ones

[strong cedar]

for longsword for example, up until green it will look damaged, once you get to blue it has a blue hilt. Purple looks bronze, and legendary looks slightly different from purple. Usually all legendries have gold on them too. Its not easy to depict when you are fighting against it unless it is a high rarity

[arctic lagoon]

ok ok ook hold on, i am fixing what i meant, yeah that but i was thinking what stats change the look. example, magic runes appear on + magic weapons, or + stat has a gem of a specific color!

unless thats a thing, then im blind

[strong cedar]

oh, that would be cool. Im hoping they leave gems on them for if they ever add in socketing. no its not a thing until you get an artifact, then they have clear visual effects depending on what type of damage they do

[arctic lagoon]

exactly!!! theres an old game i used to play called fate the which you can insert gems to weapons to give unique buffs if they have slots!

[strong cedar]

its a big thing in Diablo and PoE which they have already taken some inspiration from. hope they add that

[arctic lagoon]

have the collector sell magic items

also i really wish scrolls ACTUALLY did something,instead of being sold

[lucid root]

Alchemist quest item peprhaps

[strong cedar]

true, would be cool if they gave an xp boost or something else once leveling takes longer

[arctic lagoon]

or enchanting them to be manual return spells or buffs

ALSO PLEASE for the love of god lower zombie's gas spray remaining time, its baaaad when theres more than one in high roller, ends up they can fill a room with it

should color dyes be a thing?

[spice zephyr]

Personally, no

[dusky field]

Maybe, but most importantly there should be some way to discern if someone is wearing expensive and powerful gear or not. That allows you to know if you should run away if you're a freshie, but also puts a target on you if you've got good gear

[arctic lagoon]

true id say the trims should be untouched, like silver, bronze, or gold trims show what they have?

[rigid prawn]

Sorry for the wall of text guys and gals, tried to keep it short

[spice zephyr]

Paisely, how could you not include the most important oath, the oath of communism(aka the oath of the common man)

[arctic lagoon]

hammer and sickle for the paladin

[dusky field]

I'm waiting till 00 to make probably one of the longest suggestions out there

[spice zephyr]

Jokes aside, the idea seems really broad, a bit too broad in my opinion, from what I understand, having an oath would basically be the norm, but these oaths cover most aspects of the game, once again making cleric the generalist role.

[rigid prawn]

How could i have forgotten, comrade?

Its an attempt to include paladins in the game in a meaningful way! Balancing points would need to be applied for sure, but that's why i left out numbers entirely and just added what i thought the scaling should be (percentile vs flat numbers).

Making the auras take up spell slots as a "Concentration" Spell could make it not the best choice in situations where you need those slots for the more traditional current full support play style. Since Auras cant stack, it becomes more of a situational choice and of course there are better options for general use but thats unavoidable as people find their BIS aura for their team, and late game scaling could make some auras redundant and bring others into more of a solid role.

As for the generalist point, I dont necessarily find a problem with this, but i also like the idea of 3 different build clerics Dues Vulting through a raid ;p;

[dusky field]

I like the idea of a Paladin, but I don't see it being different enough to the cleric, since cleric already has access to some heavy armour. If you give the Paladin the whole range of Fighter heavy armour, then it'd just be a Fighter but way better...

[rigid prawn]

More of a "magic tank" or off-support frontline, fighter still has weapon selection superiority and barb still has 1 shot potential and the highest HP pool. Also mu suggestion was to add these abilities to Cleric in more of a sub-class option btw

[spice zephyr]

Well, I don't think that being able to push cleric into that direction is bad, but aside from intricate balancing, the skill tree wouls have to look real complicated too

[rigid prawn]

We don't need to hit POE levels! lol That's up to the UI team to figure out, but having it be a single branch non the tree where all the oaths are "Flowered" around the end could make it bearable to look at

[spice zephyr]

Also If we want to go into a steamlined religious close combat player, there could also be a zealot path for barbarian, albeit I doubt this would happen

In the end, I think the suggestion is good but the devs would have to be careful and make their own design decisions regarding the use of the skill tree

[dusky field]

The skill tree should be extremely basic, unless they plan to hide the abilities we select behind the skill tree. If that were the case, they'd have more leeway to make it a bit more extensive.
If it's the first option, it should all be a selection of passive bonuses. If the second, then it should be passive character stats, active abilities, and perhaps even some passives that enhance those abilities.

[proud tinsel]

it would prolly do less damage and be more tanky but who knows

[rigid prawn]

yep! Will take a lot more thought then i put in that's for sure! Hell, removing or combining a large amount of auras making it around 3 options to choose between or something would still be awesome. I just dream of a game where frontline cleric with a warhammer is as viable as fighter or barb!

[high thicket]

I feel like sub-classes and skill trees should provide you with some options for flexibility, but not completely change the way the class works

[signal rain]

If you don’t like my suggestion please give me some reasons would love to hear

[high thicket]

Too easily abusable against inexperienced players, unavoidable issues with hit ranges and attack animations.

[signal rain]

Hmm. Maybe the weapon doesn’t change. And that could be a tell that it’s a illusion. Just the armor would change to base kit

[high thicket]

It's a technical design nightmare

In that case it would be a completely underwhelming skill, where nearly everyone will be able to see through it since the weapons a character is using are the first things to look for anyway.

[trim sequoia]

how can I play the game?

[high thicket]

You can't right now, and this isn't the channel to ask.

[trim sequoia]

ok sorry

[signal rain]

Well what if it’s just a freshly that bought a weapon from the store.

The idea is they wouldn’t know the fighter was super armored and thus commit more aggressively then they would.

[high thicket]

Honestly if you're looking for a cool illusion spell, I would consider one that creates an illusionary character model with no collision from a random class equipped with starter gear. It stands completely still swinging it's weapon.

Or it could walk in the direction cast and swing it's weapon aimlessly like a noob

[signal rain]

That’s interesting. I’d like that. Would just attack the nearest non friendly targets. Obv do no dmg

[high thicket]

But it would give almost every player a split second of "wait a minute" while you run away or charge another spell

[signal rain]

Ok thats gonna make for some cool experiences. Turn a corner to have a fighter rush you. You swing and he is gone. A fireball flys from the darkness. You go and chase the wizard around the corner to be rushed by a rogue that is fake.

[high thicket]

Or maybe you think the rogue is fake but it stabs you several times while you try to run through him

[signal rain]

Lol yea that happens then it just smoke bombs and leaves once you start fighting back

In the foggy dungeon layer that would make for some horror game play

[high thicket]

It would be low cost in spell capacity with 3 or 4 charges

Since it does no damage and doesn't buff characters in any way the only thing you'd have to worry about is being able to spam it constantly

[signal rain]

Make a new suggestion xD

[high thicket]

3 more hours

[signal rain]

Basically 6

[high thicket]

Speaking of which, people are surprisingly in favour of +1 Resourcefulness on the padded tunic

[signal rain]

I’m not against it. Feel like more items need to increase it. And it needs to favor wizard, cleric, barb classes

[high thicket]

I mean the padded tunic is by far the worst chest armour for every class in the game. It would make sense to give it a stat boost that all classes can appreciate that doesn't automatically make it best in slot for light armour users

[weak vine]

If anyone in interested in having good and chill teammates for the next time the game is available i have a discord with active members, just shoot me a message and ill invite you 🙂

[arctic lagoon]

17 upvotes pog

[dusky field]

Waiting to upload my unhinged suggestion to bring the game closer to the dev's vision while maintaining a healthy amount of pvp (hopefully)

.help\

Ah poop

[arctic lagoon]

GOD NO, I HATE TRAPS

[lucid root]

🤨

[dusky field]

A 1-hit trap... Basically this guy wants to be able to walk around the dungeon and

1. Find a fully geared corpse just laying around for the looting
2. Walk around in full gear and die to some bs
3. Not walk at all, just stand still waiting for the circle. Never bring any equipment

[lucid root]

Are you saying you dont like it?

[dusky field]

As the voting ratio has shown, I'd say most people don't.

[smoky yoke]

did you see the new positions of traps in the howling crypts
What do you think about the new placements

[teal axle]

it scares me

[smoky yoke]

imagine if they change them over the time
i may like that concept maybe
dynamic traps seems cool

[teal axle]

I would cope + seethe + mald

[dusky field]

In absolute honesty, I haven't even touched the crypts this last PT. I played fully solo.

But I think I have a suggestion that may fix that in about 20-30 mins when I'm allowed to publish it

[smoky yoke]

understandable
goblin caves are also fun

in the howling crypts they changed a bit some of the floor spikes and also the wall spikes somewhere

[smoky yoke]

[dusky field]

Wall spikes? Okay that would have been innteresting to see lol

Sigh, 25 minutes to go

Btw, the limit for suggestions is 1900 characters, right?

[teal axle]

bros typing an essay

[teal axle]

[dusky field]

That's... very true. It has a bit of an essay shape. I swear it's necessary to justify my proposal!

[high thicket]

The only ones I didn't like were the one in the four-square room in the middle of the axe traps, and the one opposite to it in the middle of the corridor with the bars.

[smoky yoke]

i'm not sure about this
as long you can type and discord allows you, should be okay

[lucid root]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
listen to your intrusive thoughts, step into the instakill trap

[smoky yoke]

consider that short and concise suggestions are easy to read and people will likely to understand the point you are making
when suggestions are very long, doesn't mean they are bad, but people will likely to read many things where they agree, but in some other parts they may not agree

[teal axle]

hit your teamate with force palm and push them into the trap

[smoky yoke]

[smoky yoke]

the ziggurat falling down and the people below there

[dusky field]

Yes, I actually shortened it as much as I could... It's because I'll suggest a way in which to change the different layers of the dungeon in a way that will incentivize the dungeon crawling aspect that the devs want (but the people not so much) while still keeping a healthy amount of pvp

[high thicket]

Otherwise I was fine with all the other traps. Turning some of them 45 degrees was a great choice. They were easy to walk around if you knew they were there, but still a threat if you were distracted.

[high thicket]

Have you read my suggestions for each floor? If your parts of your suggestion are covered by my suggestions then you can trim those out

[smoky yoke]

ah yea they also rotated some floor spikes

[high thicket]

1735317, 1734332, 1733266 for Inferno, Crypt and Ruins respectively

[dusky field]

Howwwwwww do I exactly look for them?

[high thicket]

Go to the channel, hit ctrl+f, copy the suggestion ids I just listed in the search box top right

[smoky yoke]

there is an easy way also

.shortinfo 1735317

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Cloud#6770

Here are some suggestions for the Inferno map, assuming it is used as the third floor of a three floor dungeon run:

[1. Increase the timer by a few minutes. It probably doesn't need more than another three to five minutes, but most players would benefit from an increased timer to clear rooms, kill the boss, or fight other groups.]
[2. Fix the spawn locations. A few Inferno spawn locations can put you in nearly impossible situations depending on your character's class and equipment (the one behind the golden chest in the "cage" room comes to mind). All spawn rooms should lead to two different rooms to provide flexibility to move around the map.]
(3. Adjust some enemy aggro and behaviours. Some enemies like Demon Bats can be unbearably difficult to deal with, especially if they chase you into an enclosed space. With some areas requiring multiple doors to be opened to reach the next room, and some classes not having the tools or mobility to deal with certain monsters, it can put players in impossible situations no matter how well they play.)
(4. Ghost King's initial aggro behaviour should be changed. The Ghost King has a tendancy to start a fight with his teleport ability which knocks players away from it, interrupting players trying to open doors or escape portals. In contrast the Lich boss opens with a necromancy ritual to revive skeletons, giving players plenty of time to open a nearby door or portal. Giving the Ghost King fight a wind-up starting animation or forcing a particular opening attack would allow players to more easily disengage the boss if they don't intend to fight.)

Opinion:

+53

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1735317 | Submitted at · Apr 28, 2023, 4:13 PM

[smoky yoke]

.shortinfo 1734332

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Cloud#6770

Here are some suggestions for the Crypt/Catacombs map, assuming it is used as the second floor of a three floor dungeon run:

[1. Keep the time limit high. The second floor should be designed as the "main floor" of the three floor dungeon, and people should be given plenty of time to properly explore given the size of the map.]
[2. Enemy AI should be a 40/60 split between normal enemies and elite enemies (20/40/40 for high roller with 20% being normal enemies). Having all the enemies on the floor be elite level is too much of a difficulty spike for most players to feel comfortable attempting, both from a skill and gear perspective. These numbers can be adjusted if required.]
(3. Different styles/colors of lighting should be used sparingly. Blue torches could be used to add ambience in certain rooms (blue torches in rooms with wraiths would look cool), but the majority of areas should use the normal colored torches.)
[4. Do not implement fog. Fog shouldn't be used in this floor at all because darkness already fulfills the role of obscuring vision, and can create performance issues for lower end PCs.]
(5. Reduce the amount of low quality (grey) items, or remove the entirely. Players should find a higher percentage of uncommon (green) and rare (blue) quality items on average, and almost never find anything lower than normal quality (white) items. Epic (purple) items should be still be fewer until reaching the third floor.)

I'll be following this post with another list of suggestions for the Inferno floor, so stay tuned.

For information on my previous post regarding the Ruins map see suggestion id 1733266

Opinion:

-8

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1734332 | Submitted at · Apr 27, 2023, 6:48 PM

Protip: You can use .notify to enable or disable receiving DM notifications when an action is taken on one of your suggestions

[smoky yoke]

.shortinfo 1733266

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Cloud#6770

[Here are some suggestions for the Ruins map, assuming it is used as the first floor of a three floor dungeon run:

1. Make at least four consistent exits to the next floor, spread out around the map. These exits should open at the same time every run, preferably starting with the closing of the second circle, and can be used by multiple people. Having too few exits available could lead to a meta with people camping the exits to prevent people from proceeding, and consequently dying to the time limit.
2. Make two or three non-consistent exit portals that can be used by one player each, just like normal red portals from previous playtests. This will allow some solo players to advance without forcing their way through teams who might be camping the consistent exits.
3. Keep the number of escape portals small, six at maximum. This will encourage more players to risk entering the next floor, creating more PvP opportunities, encouraging the use of better gear overall, and making the general gameplay experience of lower floors feel more fulfilling.
4. Make certain elevated areas "slippery" or use invisible walls to avoid abuse from classes with advanced mobility options (looking at the Rogue specifically). People should still be allowed to find creative ways to use the terrain, but running across the very top of the map uncontested is too much.

I'll be following this post with a list of suggestions for the next floor as well.]

Opinion:

+8

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1733266 | Submitted at · Apr 27, 2023, 1:49 AM

Protip: You can join the Suggester Canary program to help test new bot features before they are released to the main bot. Join the Support Server for info!

[lucid root]

I thought i was in the wrong channel

[high thicket]

[dusky field]

OH thanks a lot!

[smoky yoke]

[dusky field]

Hmm from what I'm reading, you have more specific advice on each map. I have a "general functionality of each map to guide the dynamic of the game in the direction I believe the devs want" kind of recommendation

[arctic lagoon]

a ping system for teammates would be nice, like csgo comms. maybe make it audible for everyone else too

[high thicket]

Most of my recommendations promote the idea of people going through the floors instead of escaping on the first floor. Unless we see major changes to the map sizes, the current design leads to most of the action happening on floor 2 which is what my suggestions are tailored to. Fully geared players shouldn't be running around on Ruins killing the whole server so they can loot the next two floors uncontested, which is why I'm suggesting earlier access to floor 2 in multiple ways. Conversely people shouldn't be running around on Ruins vacuuming up all the loot they find and escaping immediately, which they absolutely will if that's the meta, so limiting the amount of exits will push people to go down a floor.

[arctic lagoon]

^^^^
can we also have less one item drops for harder enemies?

[lucid root]

Kill a boss and drops a lute, nothing else

[smoky yoke]

believe it or not, but one of the developer is a fan of a radio system message like cs classic

[dusky field]

There we go, suggestion made. Curious to see what the community thinks about it

[arctic lagoon]

yeah honestly first ring on easy levels just feels like its forcing me to hoof it across the map to the ring, not letting me loot anytime before being tossed into the blender

[lucid root]

Hopefully wizards can all communicate with each other over the mana waves

[smoky yoke]

opening the wheel and selecting: we love casting spells

[dusky field]

I tried to sort it in a way that allowed for some simple easy looting at first, so that noobs would still enter. Most people can easily delve deeper into the dungeon too, but that's where most of the pvp happens. Those who endure till the end can choose to go for a nice reward on the third floor, at the risk of stronger PVE but with enough time to kill them

[smoky yoke]

i like it tbh
also i think the ruins was always meant to be more pve oriented (but still pvp), then when delving deeper where pvp is way more concentrated

[teal axle]

fire in the hole!

[arctic lagoon]

yeah i really want going deeper back on base maps, but DONT HAVE IT ON A TIMER, and have multiple points. i wanna go dungeon crawling

[smoky yoke]

maybe removing the the circle
And when people go down to the stairs, they don't have to "wait" the others
so they can proceed and if the others don't go there they will just arrive too late when it's all looted

[arctic lagoon]

maybe have branching maps, like one leads to crypt and another leads to dungeon

[dusky field]

Thanks! I tried to balance having some options for an easy start, so that freshies would be encouraged to enter at least to the ruins. Crypts I felt should be the PVP area (since you don't wanna delay it much for those who wanna go purely PVP. And well, Hell ends up having to be PVE cause you have to deal with harder enemies, and it's probably going to be the most geared people who arrive anyway

[dusky field]

Removing the circle was something I thought about at first, but I didn't like the idea of people getting first to the crypt and looting faster. Would make the game more of a race and split everyone in between the layers, which means the game would turn into a dungeon race rather than a dungeon crawl. But maybe there is some other way to implement it?

[smoky yoke]

true, it probably would be a dungeon race then

i was of the idea that the circle should perhaps shrink slower in first floor
and gradually more faster when delving deeper

[arctic lagoon]

maybe instead of a ring its that enemies become more vicious if you stay around longer?

[smoky yoke]

if the crypts (with blue lights) will come back eventually
seems like they wanted to make them a single layer dungeon 🥲

no stairs anymore sadly

[smoky yoke]

maybe no circle, but if the timer ends, then still the one shot mechanic

[dusky field]

That's actually also a very good idea, and it would allow for the players to look for the portals that have already spawned, since sometimes they're left outside the circle

[high thicket]

Here's an interesting thought for high roller; what if you opened the stairs to the Crypt almost right away? Most people playing high roller aren't going to enjoy being stuck on the "noob floor" for longer than a couple minutes, but you also don't want them to skip past an entire floor without consequence.

[smoky yoke]

[arctic lagoon]

I still think that there should be self portals that you can invest in and find in map, but costs 100 to get

[smoky yoke]

noticed that a lot in the original ruins
a lot of blue portals spawning outside the circle because already spawned but the circle was progressing way faster
which was not a problem cause it was forcing players to go in the stairs
but in the very first days no one memorized the stairs then they removed/changed the design

[arctic lagoon]

out side of circle portals should hum!

i think it should be encouraged to stay outside of not closed circle instead of puppy hiding in ring

[teal axle]

all ruins circles should end around a stairwell

[charred wing]

Nah

[smoky yoke]

that's what i was thinking as well
they should at least shrink nearby in some of the staircases
but i'm not sure if the stairs will be a thing in future still

[minor canyon]

If the portal is outside the circle, I want it to respawn inside the circle.

[dusky field]

That may lead to some portal overcrowding in the circle, and I like thinking about the risk of running out of portals being an actual thing

I feel that a slower-closing-circle would be the perfect solution

[minor canyon]

Also, I'd like to see the portal emit periodic sounds.

[dusky field]

Poor dude posted his suggestion and not 5 seconds later already got two downvotes... F lol

[minor canyon]

👍

[dusky field]

This could actually be pretty good. Like a small magic pulse from time to time that could taunt and bring about players. Might cause players to camp portals but also help others escape

[elder jolt]

Don't like the adventurer token suggestion Twinsen? 🥲

[dusky field]

Sorry brother, I don't think it's a good idea to encourage pvp so strongly. Especially since your suggestion would encourage noob-killing, which will push away the casual players

[smoky yoke]

something similar about your suggestion was the soul hearts
taking the soul hearts of enemies but dunno tbh

[elder jolt]

But it would scale depending on gear differential, the idea was to reward newer players. Idk if I made that clear 🤔

"Perhaps possessing significantly higher gear values/(player levels?) as the killer could reduce the reward as well to discourage player farming by high-geared players (which I'm pretty sure happens anyway) and help the bonus target newer players having less success themselves. Thank you, love your work devs!]"

that was why I wrote this in the suggestion, perhaps it needs to be at the start of it hahah

[smoky yoke]

the bounties

[elder jolt]

think of the money

[minor canyon]

It would be interesting to have a separate PvP mode from the normal one where you start naked and only one PT survives to get multiple purple items.
If it's separate from normal.

[dusky field]

I don't wanna be too mean with my critique, but I feel that the game already has enough (or maybe even too many) pvp elements for something that's supposed to be a dungeon crawler extraction. I like the pvp though, but... if you kill someone and they had no loot, you just killed a noob. If they had some gear, then you already have incentive enough.

[elder jolt]

Nah, it's okay to be critical, I just wanted feedback. That makes sense though, I understand your viewpoint. I also like the PvE as much (if not more), than the PvP

.shortinfo 1642834

[eager sable]

Suggestion from JustBuyChance#4666

[I have a suggestion pushing more of the ‘co-op PvE’ aspect to hopefully bring in a different crowd of players and not divide up the current player-base.

DaD at its core is a:

• hardcore looter
• Class-based dungeon crawler
• PvPvE Battle Royale.

I was wondering if you could find a simplistic (non-dev intensive) way to add a co-op ‘campaign-esque’ mode with the same hardcore (perma-death principles).

An example way to implement this would be through ‘Questing/Campaign Characters’, that would would not be able to be brought into PvP (along with their loot/stash items, thereby keeping the two separate). This way they could still bring loot out of quests and play against the AI (mobs/mini-bosses/Bosses) in slightly more campaign-styled maps with friends. You could simply assign a character as a ‘quest character’ upon creation knowing it could never interact with (sell items to) PvP players or queue up for PvP.

I wouldn’t worry about building a story rich narrative or crafting dense campaign levels at this stage (which I’m sure would be a lot of work), just plonk a squad of 3 (or who knows, perhaps 3-6 player squads would work in PvE because PvP balance would not suffer) in a regular ‘Crypt 01 N’ map.

Alternatively, I had an idea for a rectangular shaped map with a 'straight-line' zone that moves from left to right pushing you towards the end of the dungeon. I have attached an image to help explain this.

Ultimately, I think if it was done in a minimalist approach it could offer an alternative player experience for people who shy away from brutal PvP games. Ideally drawing in new players instead of splitting the current playerbase.

Disclaimer: This is just an idea I’ve had and I don’t know how vocal or large the ‘non-hardcore/PvE’ crowd is, I just know it exists.

https://imgur.com/a/BXLjMt2]

Opinion:

+4

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1642834 | Submitted at · Mar 6, 2023, 1:39 AM

[smoky yoke]

even if it may seem to be a battle royale, to me it is not really a battle royale

[elder jolt]

I suggested this also a while back, but I probably didn't phrase it correctly. Ideally I just had this idea for more of a cozy lobby type appealing to casual/less hardcore gamers, where the focus would be on PvE-ing and almost like a co-op campaign story with items etc given, but not allowed to dilute the PvP player market (to avoid free-farming for PvP using this lobby).

[smoky yoke]

one of the developers said once, that battle royale is not the direction they are aiming for

[weak vine]

U just suggested dog tags from tarkov and if it would be more gold it would make sense for the higher the level the more gold it’s worth not what gear they’re wearing

[elder jolt]

Yeah, that makes sense. I think the game exists in a nice state

[elder jolt]

I never played tarkov. But I think both Player level and current gear would be factors to consider.

[weak vine]

Gear factor just doesn’t really make sense to me tbh cause if they have really good gear you already got your worth out of killing them why would their be an additional bonus for wearing good gear

[elder jolt]

hmmm, gear influences player strength far more than player levels imo, but player level isn't completely irrelevant, it still makes a decent difference. Especially when you consider the experience that comes with it. I suppose that's fair when you put it that way though

honestly, it is probably more targetted towards ungeared players, killing ungeared players, more than anything else

[smoky yoke]

you could basically kill the entire lobby and getting those extra bonuses

[weak vine]

I don’t see them adding this tbh but it’s not a bad idea they have the same thing on tarkov, when you kill someone they have a dog tag and it’s value is based on level

[elder jolt]

but the whole thing falls apart if you try to scale it with gear. So it doesn't really make sense

[smoky yoke]

oh if they scale then may be cool

[weak vine]

Scaling with level seems like the viable why if they would ever add it

[elder jolt]

hard to make it workable hahaha, but if it was balanced, I think it would be nice

[smoky yoke]

my only concern is that it would be a bit of extra management in the inventory of enemies though
but i guess could be fine

[weak vine]

I mean on tarkov the most a dog tag would be worth is 50k and that’s like a super high level thing like 50k in that game is like 100g in dark and darker

[smoky yoke]

100g basically a free entry in high roller dungeon

[weak vine]

I’d say 10g for level 1 and scale it by a percentage and if level 20 is still max it would be worth 25g

[dusky field]

I love when people can have civil discussions without being at each other's throats. I wish I could see it better from your point of view, but I'm either too close-minded, or I simply don't see it working

[weak vine]

Because if u make it to valuable people will start just killing their friends or loading in with their friends and doing it you can not make it valuable

[weak vine]

Yeah they will most likely never add something like this as it doesn’t really fit the game but it wasn’t a bad idea by him

On tarkov tho when u kill someone and get their dog tag it would have their name the time of the death and who killed them and what weapon they used and stuff like that

So maybe if they added something like trophies like that, that don’t have value would still be a cool idea cause I know in tarkov when my friends died I would always keep their dog tags and show them off to them as a joke

[dusky field]

I remember reading that! It's been a while though. That's why I felt my suggestion kinda fitted the vision the devs have for the game, while also keeping a healthy amount of pvp for those of us who love it. The game needs more ways to drain money off of it though

[minor canyon]

How about a display of "bloody" skins as well as skeleton and elf skins, with soul hearts or adventurer tokens being the price to buy them?

[dusky field]

I still feel like this would encourage PVP and noob-farming. Ultimately, I think anything cosmetic-related should be behind some payment, so that the devs can get extra money to maintain the live-service

Man, I feel like I'm out here shutting down everyone's ideas lol

[smoky yoke]

yea it's fine that in order to maintain the live service aspect of the game
hopefully there will be also some obtainable ones for free to unlock with the old adventure points currency though

[real trellis]

#d-and-d-suggestions message I think there is plenty enough incentive to kill other players without adding in a guarantee that the obviously ungeared players you jump at the start of a match will have something valuable for you to loot. If you want to act like a murderhobo just on the offchance it improves your odds of escaping 9 minutes later, fine, but don't expect to get paid for it.

[minor canyon]

Yes, just removing the risk that five minutes later that player might pick up purple equipment and come back to kill one is enough to kill someone.

[restive drum]

I think a better idea would to have a bounty system so you can get some gold of killing players who repeatly come into the dungeon with gear fear and go in with just starter kit

[minor canyon]

by the way, there was a bounty hunter poster hanging in the bar at test a4.
Maybe it would be good if player who kill a lot of players become bounty head and some kind of bonus is set up for killing bounty head.
The bounty head himself has the bonus of being able to turn back bounty hunters.

[dusky field]

If anything, the opposite should be encouraged. Players should be incentivized to kill those who repeatedly go into the dungeon to murder a million noobs. For every 1 kill you get, you add a 1 gold coin to your bounty. Whoever kills you gets all of the bounty after exiting the dungeon

[smoky yoke]

bounty hunter poster was also in a5
but it was simply because of the top players in the previous playtests

[minor canyon]

I don't know about Tarkov, but getting proof of killing a mass murderer should be more satisfying than getting proof of killing a mediocre player.

[elder jolt]

No not at all hahah, I think you're right.

Even when I was typing it up, I felt like it was hard to make work in my head. So I was just curious about what lead to the downvote more than anything. And it is a valid concern

[dusky field]

I feel like many of the suggestions focus on the pvp aspects in ways to encourage it rather than to encourage dungeon crawling, which is ultimately what the devs want

[real trellis]

Getting an easy kill and securing extra portals/loot for yourself later is reward enough. Like I said, if you want to act like a murderhobo, fine, but don't expect to get paid for it.

[dusky field]

Risky, dangerous adventuring first. Pvp second. Part of the adventure is the possibility of finding other players, so I feel anything that can add to the sense of danger should be encouraged, without it being "every player wants to murder you"

[elder jolt]

That's a good point. I just wanted more money in the game, but there is more than enough.

https://youtu.be/MF1g5AzQg_I?t=9338 If you watch this (timestamped) clip for 90 seconds: I kill 3 players (I only have grey gear) and basically loot nothing of value from them. So I was wondering if there was a better way to make that feel more rewarding. But it's a niche scenario... I really wasn't that interested in PvP, but they sort of wanted to fight and ultimately better safe than sorry.

[restive drum]

Yeh you right

#d-and-d-suggestions message fianlly a good suggestion!

[elder jolt]

So watching that clip back gave me the idea for some sort of reward for killing players in these situations. I just won 3 fights and I felt awesome, but I checked their bodies and no one had even a single thing I could loot (except 3 health potions on the barb). Ultimately, making in-built rewards is just going to make Player killing more prevalent... and I enjoy the friendship 'hello advernturer' vibe in the dungeons as well. I don't want the dungeons filled with bloodthirsty people.

[river dew]

ty just a community member trying to give back to my peers

[restive drum]

No one uses voip and it angers me

[elder jolt]

Yeah, honestly I was probably going to kill anyone that didn't make peace immediately. I'd just lost a ruby silver curass to the black screen and was grinding another one. My empathy was at an all time low

[real trellis]

Most of the time the game already feels like "every player wants to murder you." I don't do "friendly" anymore because people abuse trust. It's impossible to know whether someone is genuinely going to work with you or if they're just gonna wait till you're distracted and backstab you. There is no sense of honor in this community at all.

I've come to terms with this fact. The most I'll do for you is let you walk away with a voip warning - you're NOT hanging out in any room I'm in for long or I'm killing you.

[dusky field]

Well, fair enough, but those were fresh spawns. Can't expect to get much out of them other than some potion and a bandage. If anything, they should be further discouraged from violence lol

[restive drum]

Yikes man i wish i could be that trusting and nice kinda did the opposite after i teamed with a guy ran a few games in vc and he wanted me to trade his other class 600 gold i just took it and left lol

[elder jolt]

They were, idk I suppose that's just how it goes. 3 minutes of the run wasted and no loot to show except a grey arming sword 🥲

[dusky field]

Same policy here. I've seen noobs try to doubleteam my fully-geared fighter and it was one of the most fun I've had in a massacre in a long time. Sometimes noobs try courageous things, but I still feel like geared people should be less-inclined towards murder

[smoky yoke]

as expected, people would always use discord to communicate
sometimes there are some nice moments with voip at least

[elder jolt]

Also, that rogue looked at me with malice in his eyes. I know you need to judge each person as themselves, but I have trust issues in this game now hahaha. Rogues were a mean bunch last playtest

[smoky yoke]

finding trust in a rogue

[elder jolt]

few and far between hahaha

[smoky yoke]

i even tried once
then after few minutes i say
"why did you choose the wrong path"
and i loot them

[elder jolt]

brehhhhh hahahaha that's pretty funny. Ultimately that is the game though. Trust issues are part of the fun

[real trellis]

The non-aggression policy lasts up until I see a portal I want

At that point they get no warning. If they see me coming and run, cool. If not, it's going down.

[elder jolt]

This is the other issue. Sometimes I see a guy running into the zone from the grey abyss and he's looted to hell. Of course he does the friendship squat, he has 1 hp and 200g of loot? Am I supposed to wait for him to heal up and take the last portal out?

[dusky field]

Another policy I had to adopt. I was shocked to see how daring the rogues can be. I have a recording of my ridiculously-geared (for the Brazilian goblin caves, that is) fighter in which a somewhat-geared rogue tried to backstab me while I was fighting some guy. Needless to say... I have a 0-tolerance policy for rogues. That's one class I go full murder-hobo against

[elder jolt]

they die like the peasants they are

[real trellis]

Yeah at that point it's 3rd monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark time

[smoky yoke]

yea
rogues somehow tends to be some betrayers
i guess it's in the lore

[elder jolt]

what if base kit gear upgraded to white gear on death (for the killing player to loot)? At least I get some reward for killing them? But nothing that would benefit a high-geared player? I wonder if that's a better solution

[real trellis]

I find fighters and rogues the most deceitful

[dusky field]

And they really do deserve it. I hate them and their poison and their invisibility and other cowardly ways

[real trellis]

Barbarians tend to be upfront about their intentions and rangers can't afford to play the "friendly" game because it puts them at risk of getting stuck in melee range

[elder jolt]

they have no redeeming qualities. They're like that acquaintance you meet at the bar and he never buys a round of drinks, then leaves to go the bathroom never to return.

[elder jolt]

Most rangers shoot first and ask questions later, so they are also in the bin for me

[real trellis]

That's exactly what I mean. Rangers tend to SEND IT every time because if they don't they could let an enemy gain ground on them

And for non-spearchads that's real bad for Rangers

[dusky field]

I miss my dual-wielding fighter with a crossbow... what a death machine
The worst thing is... she didn't die to pvp. I killed her to traps for running away in a panic lol

[elder jolt]

😦

[dusky field]

The attack speed you could reach was ridiculous. My short sword was faster than a rogue's dagger. A great lesson for them to stop backstabbing me lol

[feral rock]

Can anyone explain me why they are against an easy way to trade gear between your own characters? This seems to be downvoted a lot. Now it cost a total of 60 gold and you need a friend you trust to do this. Why are people against just doing this by yourself even at a cost of 60 gold?

Also are people happy with the fact that streamers get donated gear and money left and right ?

[atomic cipher]

I do think we need a form of shared stash space between toons. Sometimes i just wanna be a little ore goblin, and i can't really do that on a cleric.

[dusky field]

Because it defeats the purpose of the game. If you allow it, then 90% of the characters in a dungeon will be rogues trying to farm equipment, since rogues are the "loot and hide" class.

[atomic cipher]

Half the lobby is already rogues solo looting

[dusky field]

Yyyyyep, so why make the problem worse instead of trying to solve it

[atomic cipher]

It's not really a problem. If they are solo, rogue is a reasonable choice on the multi maps because you can hide from groups.

[dusky field]

Yeah absolutely, but you should encourage character variety in a videogame

And again, if you allow or worse, encourage people to trade items in between their own characters, then... yeah, it's all a rogue's game. Even in the goblin caves you see like half the lobby being rogues. It's utterly annoying

[atomic cipher]

Goblin caves i only ever saw like 2 or 3 rogues max

[smoky yoke]

yea it is more likely to find fighters, barbarians or clerics only usually there

while in the ruins

[ebon valve]

So do we all want many different maps? Or should they stick to a single 3 part map?

[dusky field]

Really? At least in the Brazilian server I felt I was always dealing with Rogues and Fighters

[smoky yoke]

oh sometimes i was finding rogues as well
but i felt there were more fighters and barbarians usually
since playtest 4

very versatile fighter actually in goblin caves
i used to go in the solo dungeons as wizard also, it's cool

[dusky field]

I found almost no barbarians, except 1 when I started playing wizard and finally managed to go in with equipment. He was fully equipped... and had franciscas. But other than that yeah, fighters and rogues mostly. Absolutely love the Fighter's versatility, can't wait to play again lol

[sudden glacier]

50% were rogues and fighters

[real trellis]

Fighters and rogues were very common in the goblin caves, you'd see an occasional barbarian, the rare cleric and ranger, and the VERY rare wizard

As for the team maps barbarians were a bit more common but so were cleric, ranger, and wizards

[atomic cipher]

as a cleric i just bopped everyone i ran into

[lone crescent]

It completely kills the market, what's the pont of selling good gear if you can trade it with your other pg?

[meager jasper]

Mhm. It may be not too difficult to move things between characters, but that small barrier is what prevents me from keeping literally everything and just having multiple characters with the best things I can find instead of selling them.

[lone crescent]

They have to do something even when using a friend, like the item cannot be traded for 24h after you buy.

I honestly prefer the item to become untradable forever after the first trade

Trading between characters could still happen in game by throwing items on ground

[meager jasper]

I definitely would not want items to become untradable. That also disrupts trade.

Also you presumably realize that means the vast majority of things you take from another player would not be tradable no matter how good.

[lone crescent]

How untradable items will disrupt trade? It only prevents reselling, you buy only stuff you want to use without abusing trade to get your loot back or to trade between different characters wich is a bad thing

When you loot stuff from other players or fron the ground they can become tradable again

[real trellis]

Items becoming untradeable after being traded is bad because people who underprice SHOULD have their crap resold for more and if you use the item then find something better you should be able to sell your old item on the market if you don't wish to clog your inventory

[lone crescent]

Then make it time related like 24 or 48h before trading that item again

[real trellis]

If you want to prevent reselling then a 1-game hold on the item would work, must be taken with you into the dungeon and extracted with once to be resellable

[lone crescent]

The only thing I'm sure about is that they need to prevent moving stuff between characters

It's not up to me to choose how

Maybe they can put heavy restriction on trading between friends, but people will still avoid then by removing the person from friends then readding

[real trellis]

There isn't even a proper friends system in the game

[lone crescent]

If they make like 24h or 48h time restriction before reselling, wich resets everytime you extract with that item, is still possible to save your friends gear but moving gear between characters becomes hard

[real trellis]

Why is it so important to you to prevent people from transferring items between characters, anyway? Haven't you ever found a gnarly arming sword while playing, say, rogue, and thought "Hey that'd be perfect on my fighter alt?"

[lone crescent]

Cause i don't think it's fair to move items

[real trellis]

Why?

[lone crescent]

I play with my geared class to take loot for the other class and then move stuff, it's a bad mechanic

[abstract swallow]

I'd personally prefer one shared stash among all characters but I understand why that isn't the case.

[real trellis]

You still have to get geared on your geared class, plus you risk losing that gear every time you go out searching for alt class stuff. You can't "cheat" your way there, unless you have overly generous friends. Yes, it makes gearing your alternates a little easier, but isn't that the point of a main?

[lone crescent]

Yes but it's not fair to me to get geared with a class without playing it

And the whole purpose of market becomes completely useless

I don't have gear on Barbarian, ok let's play my geared Rogue to search for an axe

That's not fair to me

[real trellis]

If you don't play the class to get the gear then you aren't used to the intricacies of the class when you go out with your gear, and you might lose it because you don't understand the playstyle. That balances it out imo.

[minor canyon]

It is unfair to divide players into those who can do it by using two accounts or cooperating with friends and those who can't.

[real trellis]

Actually, you have to be level 5 to trade. I'd say that isn't quite "not playing the class"

[minor canyon]

Allowing different characters to share a stash encourages one player to use the different classes evenly.
This may have a positive effect.

[lone crescent]

And what if i can play the other class? You are just assuming i can't for no reason

Let's say i can play good all classes and i have all level 20, then what's the disadvantage?

What's the reason to into trade and buy gear if i have another geared class ready to play?

[minor canyon]

If I have a 3-person PT with my friends, we can share the equipment available for each class, but in a PT with ad hoc players, I am not willing to share, I want to use the equipment I find for myself.

[lone crescent]

Options are 2

1. Everyone can trade between characters without a second person
2. no one can do it

I prefer 2

If trade between you classe is possible then good gear don't have any value in market and is pointless to buy/sell

[real trellis]

Because it's easier and safer to just farm up some gold and rat out then purchase gear, than it is to go looking for gear, possibly by killing geared opponents

Actually finding juiced gear outside of high roller is pretty rare and time consuming and if someone wants to farm high roller for their alt I say let 'em

[pallid sleet]

You can already transfer gear between characters with the help of a friend, I think transferring between characters on your own would be fine.

[lone crescent]

The point is that if you die you already have another class ready and rejoin high roller, if you die again ok, but if you survive you gear up without any downtime and without any buying

[high thicket]

Being able to trade freely between characters isn't good for the long term health of the game. People who want to play multiple classes isn't the real issue here, it's people using extra characters as storage for the one class they really enjoy playing. You'll inevitably end up in a Tarkov-like situation where people have 30 sets of high-end gear and all the no-lifers will run around in full kits every single game.

[real trellis]

That is a point. I think limiting character slots to the number of available classes might help prevent that.

[lone crescent]

Let's say your main if Fighter the you have a Wizard as alt, you died as full gear fighter, start a match with wizard, you kill a fighter loot and escape and suddenly your fighter is geared again

[pallid sleet]

Only way to remove that is to get rid of the trade system though, no? I can just trade my gear to a friends account, and then trade it back to one of my other characters

[lone crescent]

Gold farming and market is useful only if you keep dying but then why people should sell their good stuff if they can pass to their alts?

[real trellis]

Well, they're as geared as the fighter you killed, anyway.

Personally if I found a Kuma Fang while playing ranger I would want to be able to transfer that to my fighter and I think I should be allowed to do so

[high thicket]

Not a good enough solution. A better solution is a shared stash at the current size so you can equip your alts but not be able to abuse additional storage.

[mossy narwhal]

U can, trade to friend then trade back

[lone crescent]

You can give it to your friend, wait 24h and then he gives it back

[real trellis]

Having a shared stash between even 3 characters severely limits the amount of "safety" gear you can stash.

[lone crescent]

Or you buy a Kuma Fang

[real trellis]

I don't think you can really "buy" unique named weapons unless you've got hundreds and hundreds of candy

[pallid sleet]

So.. why not just streamline it... that means anyone with friends can freely trade gear, why not just make it so anyone can?

[lone crescent]

Another way is giving it to your friend and then play with your fighter, he drops the weapon on ground and you take it, but then you are forced to play and escape to keep it

[high thicket]

If you're running 3 characters regularly you can always use one of your alts to collect gear. Or you can just deal with the gameplay loop of having to start from scratch like the devs intended.

[real trellis]

If the devs intended players to not be able to keep some pieces of gear in reserve they would not have allowed us to place gear in storage. Saying that the devs want us to start from 0 every single time we die is a bit of a reach.

It's an extraction game, not a roguelike.

[lone crescent]

I'm not saying removing friend's trading, just limiting it

[mossy narwhal]

True. I saw some sell the worst cinder rolls i ever seen for 1500 candy

[lone crescent]

It's not fair to the game (cause devs are against saving gear and want you to start from scratch) and it's not fair to solo players too

The price will be lower in the full game cause more people have access to weapons

[real trellis]

where in the game or press releases do you see "we don't want you to put old gear in your inventory in case you lose what you're wearing"

Start again with less, definitely. Start again with NOTHING? Only if you fail to extract so many times you run out of gear and money.

[lone crescent]

They said they want the gear you lose in the dungeon to stay there

[real trellis]

Ok? In what universe does that equate to "please don't stash items in case you die?"

[lone crescent]

I doubt friend trading is something they want player to abuse

[real trellis]

That's a whole other topic.

[lone crescent]

I didn't said anything about stash

[real trellis]

You said "devs are against saving gear and want you to start from scratch" so...?

[lone crescent]

Yes the gear you are currently using if you die

[high thicket]

Not quite what I meant, but the dev's have said they don't want people stashing tons of gear. Personally I never had more than one or two sets of extra gear, because I didn't find it difficult to find or buy a new set.

[real trellis]

Of course they don't want to implement safeguards for currently equipped gear. That has nothing to do with trading or stashing gear.

[lone crescent]

I didn't said anything about stashing gear

[real trellis]

Anyway, with regard to transferring items, how about a "parcel" system? You click a tab, put in the name of the character to send to, and then you're given a space maybe 1/2 of your personal inventory to put items in and send off. The process could take a day or w/e.

[high thicket]

That at least sounds reasonable

[lone crescent]

The problem is that any kind of gear transfer will break the market

[real trellis]

I really don't think so

[pallid sleet]

I also really don't think so

[real trellis]

People are going to find 1-3 classes they like and stick to them. Anything for the other classes will go right up on the MP. As it should be. It's not going to devolve into a system where people are playing equally across 8 characters and bogarting all their loot forever.

[mossy narwhal]

How, it costs a total of 60 gold to trade and trade back.

[real trellis]

Especially since part of putting together a good gear set involves stacking enough gold to buy the pieces you can't find yourself.

[mossy narwhal]

60 gold per around about trade is pretty expensive

[lone crescent]

You reach a point where you have 7 geared characters to play with and unless you died everytime you always have a geared run ready

[high thicket]

Anyways, this conversation is tiring and pointless at this stage. If the devs don't want us to trade items around then they simply won't allow it to be done easily.

[real trellis]

That's never going to happen. Nobody's gonna bother to do that except the sweatiest of sweaty nolifers.

[mossy narwhal]

And? You’re upset people wisely save and store money so they can enjoy higher tier runs more often?

Dousiq use your unique rogue skill and remove this man’s fingers

[real trellis]

I mean hell if we want to talk about the unfairness of having friends who play this game how about we talk about the inherent unfairness of grouping up with 2 people you know well and synergize well with in other games and go against people playing with uncoordinated randoms?

[lone crescent]

Low gear runs are part of the game too

[high thicket]

Like I said, pointless

[real trellis]

I'm beginning to remember why I blocked this dude

[mossy narwhal]

Yes. Everyone has to do a low gear run.

[real trellis]

Let me get the old cigar-cutter

[mossy narwhal]

Even the top tier players lose rounds, through bad luck, bad plays, or over confidence. Man you’re complaining about leather armor in minecraft not being viable after everyone mines iron. It has it place and it used but its just a stepping stone, to force everyone to go back because you ‘like leather more’ is dumb

[pallid sleet]

Kanohn just makes a ton of non-points

[mossy narwhal]

Smh lefties

[real trellis]

Brah didn't I see yo goofy ahh participating in "DUDE XX MINUTES" spam the other day

Don't be throwing stones

[mossy narwhal]

Its call DaD brain, its common for people to go crazy waiting for the game’s release.
By the way 50 MINUTES LETS GOOOO

[kind wyvern]

#d-and-d-suggestions message Also it was common to wear your quiver on your belt, not your back. It doesn't make sense to take up the same slot as a cape. Besides the point that you can easily wear a cape and a quiver on your back at the same time.

[high thicket]

Technically the arrow "reload" is your hip quiver.

Personally I recommended putting the quiver on the toolbelt for gameplay/interface reasons.

[kind wyvern]

yeah, that would make the most sense

[real trellis]

Putting the quiver on the toolbelt may make adding/re-adding arrows to your quiver clunky

[kind wyvern]

how?

[high thicket]

Not at all. You code it to give it the same behaviour as potions and bandages.

[real trellis]

Potions and bandages stack because they are the same item and have the same item ID, so making them stack is relatively easy.. Arrows and quivers are not the same item and do not have the same item ID, making the code for forcing them to interact an additional layer of complicated.

[high thicket]

Not that complicated.

[kind wyvern]

It's easy to make...

[high thicket]

If they couldn't do it I would lose faith in them as game devs, they're not rookies.

Almost everyone in Ironmace is a game dev veteran. A little extra coding to make it easy to move arrows into the quiver while in your toolbelt should be child's play.

[real trellis]

They still have problems with toolbelt items appearing in your hand and then when you use it, it's actually a different item.

[kind wyvern]

After picking an arrow you just check if you have a quiver if yes you add the arrow to the quver if not you add it to the inventory. When you reload you take arrows first from the inventory. You can drag and drop arrows when in inventory to the quiver. That's all they have to do its really simple.

[high thicket]

That's not even remotely related

[kind wyvern]

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[real trellis]

You don't think latency might sometimes prevent arrows from being added back to the quiver automatically?

How often is the quiver going to check the inventory for stray arrows?

[high thicket]

Latency affects everything. No amount of coding is going to fix latency

[kind wyvern]

Why would it? It works the same as adding items to your inventory.

[real trellis]

You've never had something sound like it picked up then it didn't, huh?

[high thicket]

Not everyone has issues picking up items

[real trellis]

Granted that was pretty rare but it did happen

Alllllllllll I'm saying is that they need to think carefully about how they want to implement the quiver for the least amount of player frustration.

[kind wyvern]

no, I didn't. That's just lags nothing to do with the clunckines of a quiver in the tool belt.

[high thicket]

I have issues with moving sometimes, but that's not a game issue that's a "my internet is garbage" issue. And why would I want arrows added automatically from my inventory? I should have to at least right click the arrows to move them from the inventory to the quiver. I shouldn't have to do something stupid like remove the quiver from my toolbelt, drag and drop arrows into said quiver, put quiver back in toolbelt.

[real trellis]

Personally I would want them to go to the quiver automatically, people will forget to refill their quivers if it's in the least bit manual. Though... maybe that's a good thing... I'd love to catch a ranger with an empty quiver...

[high thicket]

If the arrows move automatically then it defeats the purpose of having an ammo count

[kind wyvern]

So you don't have reload the quiver with the arrows from the inventory. It's just convenient to take them first from your inventory, so first you remove the sapce taking arrows. Where did I say you have to ever remove the quiver from your toolbelt?

[real trellis]

Mmm yeah on further thought I agree

[high thicket]

This is probably how it would end up being coded, but you have to consider starter Rangers not having arrows in inventory.

[kind wyvern]

Quiver isn't your ammo count on your bow. It's just the storage box for arrows. What are you talking about? How does rangers howing arrows in inventory matter? Starer rangers have arrows in inventory btw

[high thicket]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The quiver is just a storage space for arrows to keep them out of inventory. Ideally a starter kit would include a basic quiver that holds the starting 30 arrows. If you're "reloading" from the quiver and then picking up your arrows, do the arrows go straight to the quiver or do they go to the inventory first?

Also if you pick up a larger quiver that's only partially full, how easy is it to empty your old quiver and refill that partial quiver?

[mossy narwhal]

Quiver in the cape slot

[high thicket]

Nah.

[kind wyvern]

The way i said it could, be implemented it makes it so you have to reload the quiver as few times as you can. You will probably never have to reload it manualy. Man read what I said. When you pick them up they go to your quiver, than your inventory. When you reload your bow you take arrows first from the inventory than from quiver, so you take first arrows that are taking up space. To unload quiver you would have to right click or make some sort of shortcut. I can't think of any other way.

[mossy narwhal]

Keep yourself safe

[high thicket]

Good, Now that's cleared up, I can get on with my day.

[kind wyvern]

only if quivers have stat's, but that makes it so you can have only one quiver realistically

[mossy narwhal]

Stats and higher rarity lets it store more. With unique being 45

[kind wyvern]

I'm not saying having only one quiver is a bad thing. It's just something to consider.

[mossy narwhal]

Grey=15 white 20 green 25 blue 30 purple 35 gold 40 unique 45, no main stats but can roll substats like capes

[high thicket]

15 arrows isn't even worth the slot

[kind wyvern]

for a starter gear, it is

[mossy narwhal]

Ah, but it frees up 3 squares of inventory

[high thicket]

Yes, and a white one frees up 3 squares of inventory. And a green one frees up 3 squares. And a blue one frees up... 6 squares

[mossy narwhal]

Nope, a green would free up 20 arrows worth of space, which is 6 squares.

[high thicket]

Incorrect. Arrows are stacked in 15s

[kind wyvern]

can you count xD?

[mossy narwhal]

… okay, so 15+5 = 6 squares of space

[high thicket]

Even a starter Ranger starts with 30 arrows. Are you really only going to take 20 arrows? Of course not, you're going to stack anywhere from 30-60

You're going to free up 3 spaces and still have 10/15 arrows taking up 3 spaces

It's a poor scaling model. Should start at 30 arrows and go up to 60 so better quivers actually feel useful

[mossy narwhal]

okay? 3 spaces are 3 spaces.

[mossy narwhal]

No, it should start low so its not a BIS

[high thicket]

Even at 15 arrows it's still BIS unless the stats are so abysmally low or non-existent. This is why I like the toolbelt idea better.

30 arrows, no stats, doesn't take up cape slot, can be equipped by any class with access to ranged weapons.

[mossy narwhal]

No stats on quiver themselves, only the sub stats for being green, blue ext

[mossy narwhal]

I can agree if it has movement speed -20

[kind wyvern]

yeah, but if they have stats just as capes they aren't really taking up capes slot. They are just reskins of a cape. With the ability to store arrows

[kind wyvern]

What is wrong with you? The fact that arrows take up so much space is bad enough. If you can't move while wearing a quiver that's just unplayable. A quiver will still take up a tool belt slot which are crowded as it is.

[mossy narwhal]

No, im agreeing it takes up the cape slot and grants a lot of arrow space for -20 movement speed

[high thicket]

Bows already have massive movement penalties. Don't think that needs to be compounded by a "required" item

[mossy narwhal]

No, im saying a STORAGE quiver. Not the already in use action/mag quiver

Cloud if its not impolite to ask how old are you?

[kind wyvern]

i'm not going to ever use a quiver that gives me -20 movement speed penalty. It's just not worth it. I will just live with the fact that 1/3 of my inventory is in arrows.

[mossy narwhal]

Okay then lets use my original idea, no main stats but allowed generated substats, but lesser amounts. 15-45 depending on rarity

[kind wyvern]

that's fine, i can live with a slightly worse cape that gives me more space in inventory

[mossy narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/predator-arnold-schwarzenegger-hand-shake-arms-gif-3468629

[high thicket]

I'm also saying storage quiver. By "required" I mean if you want to compete against geared players in high roller you will definitely need a storage quiver, and -20 movement will just cripple Rangers. I'm 31, and honestly I don't think people in this channel REALLY think about what others are saying.

[mossy narwhal]

No? You could use your inventory instead for arrow storage. The quiver is simply there to save space.

[high thicket]

So you're saying Rangers should have to choose between an inherent inventory handicap or a massive movement penalty as part of their gameplay? That seems grossly unfair. It doesn't improve the gameplay experience at all and instead just makes Rangers less fun to play. People will just play Fighters with longbows instead, since a Fighter won't need to carry 60+ arrows to make it through 3 floors of PvP and PvE combat.

Anyways, I've said my piece and it seems like we'll have to agree to disagree.

[mossy narwhal]

Why do u keep saying ranger? Every class BUT barb has rang options. Ranger HAS melee options.

[high thicket]

You know what, I had a whole essay written out but I'm not going to bother.

[covert stag]

Owo

[molten copper]

HR barbs just run like 30-40% inventory space of francisa axes lol

[mossy narwhal]

^^^ right. They guys are complaining that a little movement decrease for more inv space is unreasonable

[abstract swallow]

The only person that ammo nerfed was Fighters tbh

[mossy narwhal]

Dishonestbadger stop making bad suggestions i downvoted every one

[abstract swallow]

I suggest you keep running your mouth, you dollar-store-drip, plate-boot-wearing, purify-spamming bowlcut bozo

[ocean timber]

Besides the double jump bit, I like the idea of a dark forest with fog as a map

[molten copper]

I feel like a quiver could make sense, just have it cap at like 30/45 arrows or something so it's equal to 2/3 stacks. Only can have 1 quiver equipped.

[ocean timber]

Yea rangers just getting less inventory space from the get go feels sad

[molten copper]

Yeah I feel like the arrow change was needed so that people don't just run quick/multishot and spam down hallways without a care in the world, but I feel like suddenly being down a 2x3 or 3x3 at the start (not to mention their consumables are generally the largest out of all the classes with hunting traps) is just a bit too much. With a quiver any amount of arrows between 0-45 wouldn't impact inventory, and if you wanna carry more you can but you gotta start using inventory space then.

[covert stag]

More

BTW potion chugger is great, makes prot pots give more shield

[abstract swallow]

Potion Chugger is great, since Barb already benefits more from potions than any other class

[signal rain]

If the quiver has minus move speed it’s a class nerf and useless as speed is more important then inventory space

[abstract swallow]

This is why I don't think we'll get quivers until weight and bags are added, since it'd turn a general change into an actual nerf

[molten copper]

by the time I kill them it's 30-40% left of their inventory so yeah it's probably more like 70% to start

I mean just have the quiver be a weightless object that comes with a bow or ranger starting kit then, or like you can "equip" 30/45 arrows to a bow. Easy fix to do without making a speed nerf

[covert stag]

Me with 90% axes and healing to fill the rest:

[signal rain]

Yea for some reason. Ppl think to give a ranger a quiver means in some way is has to be detrimental. Why? This is a must to make the class viable. No need to make this a nerf or make it a advantage. The problem is the arrows take to much space for the ranger. Which in its own is a nerf. We are trying to fix this not swap it with another nerf

Putting the quiver on the same slot as the cape or cloak is also a nerf cause now we gotta choose between quiver and capes?

[covert stag]

Perhaps a bottomless quiver with lowered dmg as a purple+ drop...

[dusky field]

You'll get downvoted into oblivion for such blasphemy

[molten copper]

Anything that reverts the mechanic of ammo completely doesn't make sense, even at a damage loss, because then it negates their design philosophy with the change. So I can't see that being a good idea.

[covert stag]

That's the point, hated infinite arrows and ik someone's gunna suggest same thing

[signal rain]

Still a nerf. Since it’s taking away damage. We are just asking for a item to hold the arrows that the game now forces us to hold. So that like all the other classes we don’t have to commit 40% of our inventory to making sure our main weapon works

[dusky field]

I think a quiver on the cape slot + a slight price lowering for the arrows would be enough. You don't wanna go back to having to deal with an infinite-arrow-dispenser after all

[signal rain]

I’m a ranger I wanna wear a cape. Like every other class can. Why do I gotta choose between my inventory and wearing a baller cape when no other class does

[dusky field]

Because you have a ranged damage potential way beyond every other class, except the wizard, who's got his ranged damage potential limited?????

[signal rain]

Just add a new slot for quiver or make it a item that goes in one of the potion slots

[signal rain]

I’m supposed to. That’s the point of my class. All rangers super squishy bad melee. I’m supposed to have the best range I’m a ranger

[molten copper]

Consumable slot quiver makes the most sense. Can see how many arrows you have in it at a glance that way too

[signal rain]

Rangers have consistent range dmg on a single target. That’s trade from the wizard who has great aoe burst dmg with bad sustain

[dusky field]

Yes, but you cannot just sit at the back of the dungeon spamming arrows annoying everyone with absolutely no setback. Look dude, someone already suggested your idea and it got downvoted into oblivion. You can either accept that you're alone in your thought and that the community doesn't agree, or you can keep arguing about it until everyone decides to ignore you

[signal rain]

I’m not asking for unlimited arrows. Keep the arrows in the game. I’m saying if I gotta have a quiver that slows me or takes my cape slot. Why? Why should I be nerfed like this when no other class is? Because I’m good at the one thing I’m designed to be good at? Lower the dmg increase the time to shoot arrows. But with arrows you have nerfed the rangers ability to make money like other classes and at the same time you given the ranger a nerf to stats cause of the quiver being stat based

We both know that everyone can vote ins suggestion and not everyone is intelligent so that’s why we ar where discussing

[dusky field]

So you can just dismiss the consensus of the majority as "they're too stupid to understand" but everyone has to accept that you're somehow illuminated to the truth of the ranger and are free to ignore what the community tells you?

Btw, nerfing t he draw speed of the bow would be such a huge nerf that you'd end up with way less dps than what the cape would give you

[signal rain]

No there are clearly bots in this discord and there are people who down vote stuff for rogues cause they hate how rogues last playtest dumped on them. I’m saying there are a lot of reasons why someone might vote up or down.

[signal rain]

Nothing is more obvious then a straight up stat loss from the lack of cape plus the main factor of. I wanna look cool with a. Cape but now it’s a nerf to me to have one cause I can’t use my quiver.

[dusky field]

Absolutely unhinged opinion. Do you really think people will bother making bots to vote on random suggestions????? But it's not even like 100 bots, dudes are only using 10 or so?
And even worse, you think people don't absolutely hate how dumb rogues were on the last PT?

My bro, you talk about people being unintelligent and yet you're absolutely disconnected from reality

[signal rain]

Bro ppl made bots to dddos a indie game on a torrented playtest. If you think ppl Arnt crazy and won’t do petty things your ignorant.

[dusky field]

You're equating a DDoS attack with spamming votes... I'm out. Gl upholding your opinions on the court of public perception with those arguments

[obtuse lichen]

lmao

[hazy tulip]

when the game is pay to play no way these bot spam problems will stay.

[signal rain]

Games not even out yet hasn’t made a dollar and ppl ddosed. Ppl hack in squad when there is literally no tournaments or stat tracking. There’s no reason to play other then fun and they hacking anyways . Im explains to you ppl will do crazy things and if they would make bots to ddos this nonsense game it’s not a stretch to down vote somthing cause you hate rangers. Try and suggest anything with a rogue and watch the trolls downvote you cause they couldn’t get over double jump

[obtuse lichen]

because every other ranged class is kinda handicapped as well

thats how the balancing works

[signal rain]

There’s only 2 and the wizard has by far better team fighting potential with fireball that is aoe and lighting that can hit there entire team. And with all you spells you do have enough to handle a big fight if your not just wasting them .

[hazy tulip]

wizard is good tho. Nvm i get what u mean

[molten copper]

Wiz was garbo this last PT >.>

[obtuse lichen]

ranger is good 2 its just the skill based

my friend was annihilating on the ranger in this playtest

[signal rain]

No the average wiz player was Garbo the top players show you what the class is capable of

[dusky field]

Man, this section of the discord needs an age restriction... jesus christ

[hazy tulip]

Imo ranger beats the wizard, but the wizard is just beetter for handling all other classes

[obtuse lichen]

It makes me facepalm when people say something like omg i need to carry arrows and pay for them

[signal rain]

I think a lot of wizard this playtest benefited from rest recovering spells and should have switched meditate to arcane shield. Would help them a lot

[molten copper]

Yeah, I only ran arcane shield or quickness, wiz was still way worse than last PT.

[signal rain]

Do you pay for each swing of a sword? Do you pay for each spell you cast? Do you pay every time you apply poison to your dagger? Why is the ranger different

[dusky field]

Could be worse, they could be justifying their backwards opinions being downvoted with "oh it's the trolls / bots / idiots". Like man, this guy can't be wrong

[obtuse lichen]

Are you even reading my messages

[hazy tulip]

I mean you pick up the arrows, and their pretty abundant from pve

[obtuse lichen]

wizard needs to regen every single spell after the fight meanwhile you are just paying mere 10 gold for 10 arrows

[dusky field]

I think they should add guns to the game, only for the rogue. And allow him to double jump as a passive innate ability instead of occupying your passive slots

[signal rain]

I heard they were in vases like plentiful I was not breaking vases as the ranger so potentially but in my experience I liked rolling with 50-60 arrows. This caused me to buy on average 10-15 after every run I made it out. So about 10-20 gold per run just for ammo

[molten copper]

Did you not play PT5? They gave him a handgun lol

[signal rain]

And? You just stated how rangers have a gold sink no one else has

[obtuse lichen]

Hand crossbow was actually ok on the rogue

[dusky field]

The reload was slow and I still had to use an ability slot for the double jump! It's not fair, other classes get to do cool things like... wearing heavy armour. Why is the rogue different?

[hazy tulip]

Unless you're solo, me and my cleric would just carry all the campfires to make it more fair.

[obtuse lichen]

Well fighters have a gold sink as well then because they use more potions than the others

Also every single melee class as well

[hazy tulip]

Yeah my cleric was so rich at the end since he never really needed to purchase many consumables

[dusky field]

Please tell me they will make second wind have unlimited uses on a cooldown now. And make the fighter also double jump

[signal rain]

All classes need potions. Not all need arrows and they def don’t need so many that it takes up 40% of the inventory

[obtuse lichen]

Just get real
Btw barrels drop a shit ton of the arrows

[dusky field]

Are you suggesting I have to pick up the arrows I waste throwing away all the time? How dare you!

[hazy tulip]

As a fighter, i would sometime go in with my inventory already 40% full of consumables. Throwing axes, campfires, potions.

[signal rain]

I still gotta carry campefires and traps and potions and stuff I also now need arrows

[obtuse lichen]

but use it less than other melee classes do

[dusky field]

I know, Leagion wanted to wear a cape no matter how much they nerfed him, and still be able to equip the quiver. Ask them to put the quiver in the chest slot then!

With no stat bonus

[hazy tulip]

I mean you need like 50% less meds, and hardly any blue potions. No throwing knives or axes either. Its not that bad imo.

[signal rain]

I just think it’s wild that ppl are like yea all classes can wear caps but rangers and no one is like isn’t this unbalanced

[abstract swallow]

Anyone saying they carried more as Ranger than Fighter is lying or has a SEVERE skill issue

[hazy tulip]

Nah, just being prepared. I'd say its about the same.

[signal rain]

I didn’t play much fighter. But I carried 15+ potions and bandages every run that is was possible. I dont use rations so all the healing I get is what I bring in.

[obtuse lichen]

Technically quiver can go into left hand slot and take up to 20 arrows to make people cry less about how their arrows take space in inventory
but making quiver give stats oh man fire that balance maker

[dusky field]

Maybe if EVERYONE thinks that except you then there's something that you're failing to understand, instead of EVERYONE ELSE being wrong?

[obtuse lichen]

Just dont play skill based classes if you're struggling

[signal rain]

No one has explained how that’s justified. You guys just say rangers strong or fighters carry stuff to. Or we’ll if you land your shots you don’t need arrows. Or you could go pick them up. Low how does that justify the fact one classes doesn’t get access to stat boosting equipment that every class gets access to

[dusky field]

Man, it's so unfair that everyone gets to have a long range attack except the cleric. When are they going to add wizard magic to the cleric? Or give the cleric a longbow

[obtuse lichen]

Buffing ranger is horrible idea because skilled people are going to snowball through the lobbies easily

[feral rock]

got some offensive spells in last playtest.

[brittle jasper]

locust swarm and earthquake are real

[obtuse lichen]

It still outperforms most classes but manageable to take of

[signal rain]

It’s crazy that clerics can heal and no one else can crazy, it’s crazy that fighters can get heavy plate and no one else can, it’s crazy rogues can pickpocket and no one else can, it’s crazy barbs get boosted stats for lack of chest armor and no one else can, Thai could go on forever. The point of classes is that some can do things others can’t

[obtuse lichen]

Cleric can use heavy plate

[signal rain]

Templar armor is not dark plate

[dusky field]

I know, but they're not on the level of spammability or long-range comfort that the Ranger has. What I'm trying to argue is, giving a longbow to the cleric would probably make him a bit too good at too many things at the same time. Kinda like why we're arguing that the quiver should take the cape slot. But our guy here fails to see how that may be unbalanced despite what everyone has tried to explain to him, and he's fallen back to "everyone is wrong but me".

[obtuse lichen]

bro you are having mental gymnastics at that point

[obtuse lichen]

just add multiclass slingshot with 15-20 damage 4 head XD

[brittle jasper]

i do personally think that if ranger has the requirement that he needs to carry his ammunition in a way that takes up his inventory slots (or equipment slots) then he needs to get something that other classes that don't

[signal rain]

Your saying giving cleric a longbow would make him op cause it gives him abilities that he wouldn’t normally have. What op abilities do I get for having a quiver? I don’t gain anything this ain’t a one class is better then others it’s this one change has effected one class more then any. And the solutions I see seems to steer more towards effecting one class without making it better or worse in combat. Like the quiver has zero affect in combat. We are talking about inventory management. Why should a change for inventory management. Affect stats that are important to pvp

[obtuse lichen]

He has the most busted skills for bow

[dusky field]

It's not that you get an ability for having a quiver. You already have an ability: bows and crossbows. You get to increase the draw speed and so on on weapons that other classes don't, or don't even have access to.

[brittle jasper]

thats like saying wizard has the most busted skills for casting

[obtuse lichen]

You cant really make everything unique

[signal rain]

That’s not my problem I’m a ranger that’s what I do. No one is saying the fighter swings to fast or the barb is to strong in melee 1v1 . Your trying to punish a class for filling a niche that he is designed to fill

[brittle jasper]

yeah well then give him at least some tangible upside to cover his clear weakness

he has ranged dps but so dose wizard and wizard dosen't have to pay for it with his inventory

[obtuse lichen]

Bro he is literally the fastest class in the game almost impossible to catch

[signal rain]

And if you want to do things that make him weaker in combat sure I’m open to it. But to say he should have to lose inventory space for no reason other then your to good is a dumb argument

[brittle jasper]

i think your mixxing ranger and rouge here

[hazy tulip]

Nah wizard is fastest for sure

[obtuse lichen]

with haste

[signal rain]

Rogue fastest class

[dusky field]

People are literally saying that of other classes as well. A single barb francisca lliterally can kill you. In fact, people have been complaining about the barb since the playtests started almost. But you're too hyperfocused on looking at yourself in the mirror to see the rest of the world.

[signal rain]

Who said barbs are op since like pt2 ? And even then it was more the cleric wiz buff barb combo

[brittle jasper]

everyone is too hyper focused on balance to see anything these days

[hazy tulip]

Yeah, and ivis which he casts in no time. If rogue didnt have doublejump then wizard would be the class with most mobility.

[obtuse lichen]

Archer has insane interaction speed insane ms also ranged
and not that squishy as rogue what else do you need

[signal rain]

Rogue and rangers are probably equal on squishyness most armors are the same and stats they need to up to be better are the same

[dusky field]

Honestly yeah, balance isn't really the focus of the playtest. If anything, right now I'm more worried about actually getting the game. But at the very least, when discussing balance, I would hope people would abide by things that have already been voted on without calling it "oh those are just trolls / bots / ignorants"

[hazy tulip]

just imagine you are chasing a rogue, ranger and wiz. Who do you catch up to first?

[signal rain]

I think it’s eye opening that you don’t think some of these polls could be messed with. Like ppl ddossed a playtest. That’s much harder then downvoting a public discord xD

If your willing to do one why stop there?

[obtuse lichen]

depends on how they act honestly but you'll never catch up to any of these classes while playing on the cleric fighter or barb

[signal rain]

You aren’t supposed to. Your trade melee damage for speed. Other classes trade speed for dmg

[obtuse lichen]

But wizard can always run out of haste at the inconvenient time while others just fast without any buffs

[hazy tulip]

hehe, no thats true. But ranger is still the easiest to catch up to, just from experience.

[high thicket]

I just want the floors to be balanced in a way that invites people to actually run the full dungeon, and QoL improvements to make everyone enjoy the game more instead of hanging up on things like the shoddy trade system, clunky merchant interfaces, etc.

[obtuse lichen]

Because most of the times they just turn around at the wrong time

[signal rain]

Why should someone as a fighter barb or cleric who can wear heavy armor use high damage weapons also at the same time be allowed to outrun classes without heavy armor or high dmg melee weapons that’s not balanced

[hazy tulip]

Thing with chasing a wizard is that if he makes some distance you cant really run at him, them purple orbs just kill anything.

[dusky field]

Look at the votes on the poll. Do you see 100 usernames having voted "no" or "yes" with names like asdf1243, asdf67543, asdf6345? No? They're all individual, differently named accounts that voted? They all seem rather unrelated to each other? Huh, weird, I don't remember spambots usually working that way... that's very weird right?

[obtuse lichen]

If you are playing in party then wizard is probably going to be traded for that move

[abstract swallow]

Trying to close on a competent Wizard without a ranged option is just choosing death

[signal rain]

Stop trying to cherry pick info to take away from the fact that’s it’s not uncommon or unrealistic for ppl to vote based on there own biases.

[hazy tulip]

Yeah thats my point

[obtuse lichen]

Not always if you are rocking barb with increased Magic res you can probably survive magic missiles

[dusky field]

It's not cherrypicking info you absolutely pedantic retrograde, it's literal evidence which is way more than you've provided with your backward assumptions.

[signal rain]

If your fighting a wiz without any range you apply constant light pressure. At some point he has to meditate so you push keep apply pressure till they run out of spells then the wiz has to choose between fully running away to meditate or they commit to a fight with low spells

[obtuse lichen]

Pretty much every class has a counterplay rn

[signal rain]

You can go google how bias’s effect ppls decisions I’m not gonna have a discussion here bro. This is basic shit. If you can’t grasp that then what ever I’m done lol

[hazy tulip]

Yeah thats the tactic, but i still feel like a competent wizard has that in mind too and has more than enough fire power to finish a fight.

[hazy tulip]

except rogues on ruins lol

[abstract swallow]

Yeah, unless the wizard is running triplebuff they can probably outlast any single fight.

[obtuse lichen]

Thats the map problem

[signal rain]

Depends how many times you get hit. Sometimes just making the wizard leave to meditate is enough. Sometimes wiz runs off you go do something else and never really meet again

Any classes that rely on buffs the easiest counter play is fall back and wait for buff to wear off

[obtuse lichen]

unless you are cornered

[signal rain]

If your cornered you had other problems involving positioning. Or maybe you just got caught it happens

[abstract swallow]

Rogues in general, not just Ruins
Any competent Rogue with DJ and HandBow could camp any room from doorstops and torch scones, not to mention all the rooms they have free vertical dominance in

[obtuse lichen]

it feels like im playing chess and not discussing rn

[hazy tulip]

what class you think is op

[brittle jasper]

hand crossbow makes rouge feel awful to try and fight rouge should not have been given a ranged option

[obtuse lichen]

sometimes you're clearing the room and team comes out of nowhere it just happens

[trim maple]

throwing knives

[signal rain]

Exactly sometimes you just get caught and all you can do is the best in that situation

[signal rain]

This is another reason I’m fighting for the quiver that hold at least 30 arrows cause. When ppl say 30 is enough there not takin into acc a team jumping you right after a fight and you don’t have time to get ur arrows back

[brittle jasper]

throwing knifes are a ton more limted he cant poke with them nearly as well as with hand crossbow

[obtuse lichen]

Op in terms of what
honestly idk
but more likely
for solo Wizard->Ranger->Rogue
But they are the most skill based classes in the game
And op in team is a Cleric+Fighter/Barb

[high thicket]

Hand crossbow is only a problem because of Rupture.

[abstract swallow]

Not sure why they took poison off throwing knives
Anyways knives are god tier because they're free spacing

[signal rain]

Wizard was probably the most op along with barb who used Achilles and throwing axes

[obtuse lichen]

actually why

[signal rain]

Problem is wizard is highly skilled base so you will really only see wiz full potential on a YouTube video

[obtuse lichen]

Thats the point why rogues use them without rupture on the hand crossbow its going to be shit

[hazy tulip]

Agreed.

[high thicket]

Hand crossbow is still great for killing archer and crossbow skeletons you can't reach otherwise.

[feral rock]

So problem with hand crossbow can be fixed by making rupture melee only then.

[abstract swallow]

At least they took away his nicest trick that made high-end Wizards nearly untouchable
Rest in peace bunnyhop MMs

[obtuse lichen]

lol taking crossbow just to kill skellies is lame af

[high thicket]

Practically a requirement if you want to do Inferno solo

[signal rain]

I was running with a wiz that didn’t use invis so I never noticed how op it could be till I watched a wiz use it to walk behind the enemy team and lighting them. I was like oh wow that could be a serious problem

[obtuse lichen]

Its just makes it a utility weapon at that point

And like f tier in pvp

[spice zephyr]

as long as it's poke damage on a class that has high mobility, I think that disregarding the problem to rupture is neglecting it. Having any kind of poke that in decent hands can be unpunishable is a problem in and out of itself

[abstract swallow]

HandBow reaks of the same kind of endless attrition gameplay that PT3 had

[high thicket]

Small amounts of poke are much more reasonable than the youtube clips of "I headshot you with one bolt of my physical power build and now you just die for free get rekt kid"

[obtuse lichen]

Its not like rupture deals a lot of the damage

[abstract swallow]

HandBow is also ANOTHER victim of the damage-stacking meta making strong/hard to counter options completely game breaking
It honestly needs to get fixed before EA if they want to keep throwing out new class options every patch

[obtuse lichen]

Damage stacking meta is still a thing only because devs dont want to rework or straight up remove flat additional damage

people are going to cry after the change but its for the best

Its going to make the game easier to balance overall

[spice zephyr]

in my opinion, any ranged option which is rather easily replenishable pushes the pvp into a stallmate of poke trade, where pushing would be disadvantegous against a class which is not significantly worse in close range fights

[hazy tulip]

You can push a ranger with a fighter shield, but wizards cant be pushed

[spice zephyr]

that's the thing, the shield only blocks so much area

[high thicket]

Pavise meta

[abstract swallow]

People are gonna cry over tons of things, honestly I'm surprised that they find more things to complain about than I do and I'm petty af
Fixing rarity/damage stacking so dudes in green +damage clownsuits and a purple weapon can't roll lobbies
Adding literally any inventory/looting mechanics
Any sort of PvE difficulty or forced descent (just see the early PT5 toddler screeching)

[obtuse lichen]

+damage is a bm its funny how you can sell green items for more price than blues or even better rarities because they have +1 additional damage

The only flat stats they should keep is attribute stats

[spice zephyr]

I don't think max health is as aggregious either, So I could see it staying

[abstract swallow]

Flat stats are okay, they just need to have an actual loot generation/affix system
At least just limit certain mods like damage/% resist/move speed to certain items slots

[obtuse lichen]

And reworking the other % to actually make them useful like +% max health

[abstract swallow]

Yeah, limit the slots and then balance the actual rolls

[obtuse lichen]

Idk if max health should be a thing just because strength already can you extra hp
like make at least +10% hp mod 2% isn't even 2hp on most classes lol

[spice zephyr]

isn't max health currently a flat stat?

[obtuse lichen]

If im not missing something then there is actually flat stat and % in the game

[dusky field]

It's an interesting idea, but I'd say that the game needs more ways to drain gold from the community. Currently, periodic resets are the main way to achieve this (though I like the idea). But I rather the dragon drop more legendary drops than just raw gold

[spice zephyr]

do wizards actually get anything from gettin a campfire?

[abstract swallow]

Faster spell recovery
The fact that so few people know that means they should probably get one

[spice zephyr]

the proposed addition of campfires to kits is lost on me, ranger has the highest resourcefullness and I understand the campfire suggestion, but the use case is rather limited as he does not have many skills that need refreshing. Wizard is another one which unless you need both health and spells, you wouldn't use a campfire, the resourcefullness of a wizard makes it okay to deploy a campfire, but not an amazing choice majority of time. Cleric I understand that you want to give him an ability to better recover high tier spells, but the base resourcefullness is plain awful and doing it themself is not worth it. In my opinion this change is heavily team play biased as to have someone to deploy the campfire fast and for more than 1 person to use it

[abstract swallow]

the intent was less to make the kit "better" but more sustainable (which is a big issue new/low gear casters have) while tutorializing rest mechanics
The team play bias is intentional, and is another thing the game should passively teach/encourage (supply management is a skill very few players have, let alone coordinated teams)

[spice zephyr]

I think that a clarity potion, whilst less significant would better fit cleric and wizard. As for ranger, giving him the campfire back is a decent idea

[abstract swallow]

That'd work too, but given how badly those scale it wouldn't even give a single spell back (with the current recovery)

Feel free to ape whatever you liked from the suggestion and workshop it/repost it

[spice zephyr]

yeah, I really hope that clarity potions stop being an overall spell regen of 20 per second to every spell and instead become an 80 per second to 1 spell

[arctic lagoon]

I kinda wish that clarity potions worked for adventurers too, like giving you your 1 time use ability back?

[abstract swallow]

That'd be swell

[spice zephyr]

which idea are you reffering to, mine clarity potion 1 spell regen or the skills?

[arctic lagoon]

skills

[dusky field]

Those are abilities, not spells. Fighter, as much as I love it, would be absolutely broken if he could just use second wind on every fight

[abstract swallow]

Was the former, but both are decent ideas (would probably have to be a decent rarity Clarity to get the big boys back tho(

[spice zephyr]

Yeah, presumably you would still have to sit for a bit for resurection

[abstract swallow]

Spell Capacity and Spell Level/Count/Recovery are still only barely implemented, so that'll probably be the case eventually

[dusky field]

I hate hunting traps to an unreasonable degree... Great troll item for a quick youtube video, but such a disgusting gameplay mechanic

[hazy tulip]

Hunting traps are slept on though, so much potential but i never really saw them used much

[hazy tulip]

Kinda can though, one white campfire and ur good

[abstract swallow]

I saw them used most in HR during PT4, since they were one of the only counters to BuffBall without a full AntiBall comp

[dusky field]

I have. After the one time I got stuck in one (and took forever to remove, to the point that hunting traps are simply a death sentence and I absolutely hate them) I became hyper-aware of the trap sound.

Now I just play fighter so that I can crossbow-duel whatever disgusting ranger is trying to bait me

[dusky field]

Never tried it! But well, campfires leave you considerably more vulnerable than just drinking the green pots

[signal rain]

Hunting traps were fixed this playtest. The fact you could move once stuck really fixed the hide in body strat. And if you had full hp you can just keep moving and at the cost of hp the trap will just break.

Pt4 it was almost always gonna end in death.

[smoky yoke]

rework of the trap was necessary, now it is for sure better

[dusky field]

Oh I didn't know it had been changed. I've avoided traps like the plague, sometimes not even trying to loot the ranger's body when I saw he was fixated in staying in a single room.

But I'm glad to hear they addressed how unbearable they were

[next hinge]

Hunting trap are a must for rangers, whom doesnt use it never played highroller and getting Rushed by a 95% DR fighter

Right now they have so much already in their inventory with the arrows, bolts, traps, meds... its just not worth to play ranger anymore since you can go fighter with a bow, do the same damage and be a tank.

Add the fact that you have to pay for Traps and arrows every single runs is crazy.
If you cant stack em or start with more maybe add the possibility to pick them back up.

[signal rain]

Yea the hole hide them under bodies was game breaking had to change. Feel like the skillcheck was a little to punishing to have mid fight. So I really like now that as long as you got the hp just keep moving and you will eventually break it

[brittle jasper]

yeah paying for traps and arrows and pots every run is just a huge cash burning fest as ranger

[quick blade]

I enjoyed the ranger the most. It felt more balanced that all the other classes.

The main issue was that when you give the rogue the hand crossbow it become a better ranger than ranger.

Ranger needs to have a monopoly on ranged superiority.

The 95% fighter thing is a separate issue.
The arrows and hunting traps are just a little too expensive. arrows 5 gold and hunting traps 5 gold would make the class a little more forgiving. They hunting traps are very power full but since you have no way to pick them back up that 9 gold per trap is a little pricey.

Ranger probably could use a perk that grants it some armor pen. Like 15% or maybe 30-35%

[signal rain]

I’ve been trying to explain this to people and they just say ranger op or something along those lines.

The only people that think rangers are not running through there money to stay equipped are ppl that prob didn’t play a lot of ranger this pt

And that’s not the 100g for hr on top of it

[abstract swallow]

Sounds like pure skill issue, I had no issues running solo Ranger HR even without ratting with snacks

[brittle jasper]

my guy not everyone is the top 1% who can escape every single game

[signal rain]

How is item consumption skill issue bromeo. You either put traps down or you didn’t. If you could loot all your arrows every fight you never got into a serious fight. I’d get into 3 teams fighting at a time I don’t have time to watch where each arrow goes let alone run around the room checkin all the nooks and crannies. Especially if I had to chase ppl through rooms like im@not goin back to get those arrows

Just sound like you got into some cushy hr games with that take bud

[quick blade]

It's not the high end of ranger that has money issues it's the low side.

[signal rain]

Really wish we could get a stat that showed ppls hit to miss ratio so we could put this if you miss your bad issue to rest. Evidently all of you are reincarnations of Legolas

If you Arnt in the traders it’s easy to have money issues. I for one was not gonna waste any time selling gear in a playtest

[quick blade]

I never had money issues on ranger but the traps are a little expensive. They don't actually trap people for very long. It breaks in less than 10 seconds you do not even need to do the skill check.

[brittle jasper]

honestly i fully admit that i need more practice in pvp with a bow but its very hard to get it

[quick blade]

Just play ranger with multi shot.

[brittle jasper]

True instead of taking time to get good i should take an ability to make it so i cant skill issue my shots

[lucid root]

Most mmos have chat on a separate server, correct?

Local trading, auction house, chatting, anything socially related

Hope we get a server room tour video at ironmace if they end up hosting lol

#d-and-d-suggestions message
Not sure why this is getting downvoted, predownload before ea pls

[high thicket]

A week is WAAAAY too early.

[lucid root]

I just know mmos have separate login servers, and noticed that chat can go completely offline while the game still functions so i dont know how compartmentalized it is or should be for security sake

Knowing ironmace theyd probably be updating the package every day up until release so yeah maybe a week is pointless

[high thicket]

Day before or two days maximum, assuming they have an easy way to distribute and patch it. If we have to torrent it again then there's really no point

[lucid root]

They did put together a patcher pretty quick for pt5

[peak ermine]

I really hope they have separate magic damage scaling for mobs because it is absolutely ridiculous that magic missile is the only viable spell

[peak ermine]

The games only a dozen gigabytes. Really no need for an early download lmao. Unless you live in the Appalachian mountains with 1 mbps

[proud tinsel]

As a rogue I need to buy bandages pots throwing knives/bolts. Even so pots dont work for shit because of rogue starting will. We're all in the same boat.

[knotty trellis]

Medieval Spiked Club left handed weapon???

[brittle jasper]

i mean everyone has to buy pots but i honestly don't care about the feelings of a rouge player

[proud tinsel]

Rogues need to buy more than most so I used it as an example. Rangers are still way more powerful than rogues overall but on that new map it was bad for sure

[lucid root]

That is literally my internet, 7 megabit down so about 700-800 kilobytes per second if its stable

[smoky yoke]

feels bad
by the way a preload wouldn't hurt
but i'm not sure how they work
i think steam allows only if a game is above 30gb+ but not sure

[granite plinth]

I think they could just turn on the servers at a specific time but steam let’s you download it like a day early or something, y’know

[lucid root]

I mostly agree the file size isn't big enough to warrant it

[peak ermine]

My heart goes out to you comrade

[lucid root]

Theres a better internet provider but their service area ends like 2 houses down from me 🙂

[rigid prawn]

i meant to put Raven not crow fml

[abstract swallow]

it's okay there can be a tiny little crow hood to go with the raven cloak

[high thicket]

Caw CAW!!!

Gonna trigger some Slay the Spire PTSD

[abstract swallow]

lmao hit enter like halfway into that
oh well

[peak ermine]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

This got a huge laugh out of me

[elder jolt]

Quentin Tarantino plays DaD?

[peak ermine]

he's infiltrated the discord

[elder jolt]

🦶

[lucid root]

Dan Schneider strikes again

[molten kestrel]

Ignore my suggestion #d-and-d-suggestions message because apparently it has been already leaked that something like that will be added 👍

[obtuse lichen]

not everyone has 1gb internet

[peak ermine]

i got like 35 mbps avg
But i mean, there's no rush, relax and enjoy getting stomped on by better players

[obtuse lichen]

My friend has like 5mbs download

what

[molten kestrel]

#d-and-d-suggestions message This would kind of be pay to win or not? Because I already was planning on buying the game on a second steam account so I can transfer items for longer term storage without having to do it with a friends help, with this it would insentivise buying more accounts for more storage

[robust bison]

No no no no no wait wait wait wait WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT

[smoky yoke]

It's ok. just for the future, be mindful about leaks, as in they are not meant to be shared in this server and that are against the rules.
with that being said, I can tell you that gold bags and gold chest were already in development but not released yet, and this was a developer saying so in public chats different times, a really long time ago
basically it is very likely we may see further storage about gold so it is nice

[molten kestrel]

Oh right I probably should have realised that leaks are kind of offlimits, good thing it was something that isnt to crazy information 😅

[plain bear]

any info on why they didnt release the game on epic store? would it also be taken down?

[gaunt cargo]

Yes. Any hosting operated by a US company will be issued a takedown if they serve DaD.

[wary junco]

Actualy an interesting thought, dk if it is forbiden or not

To be fair, i wouldnt know how to run a second application of steam without having a second pc

[high thicket]

Paying for a second copy of the game just for storage purposes is not "pay-to-win" any more than having a second account in Diablo 2 is "pay-to-win". It's not part of the game, it doesn't provide any real advantage, and you're choosing to pay twice for a game when you only intend to play on one account

[wary junco]

It would make sense if you have a set team to play with to share a storage account to store stuff

[high thicket]

Not to mention transferring items would still be a major hassle. You'd need two PCs side by side, or you'd need a friend to log into the second account when you need to transfer

[spice zephyr]

can't you just use a virtual machine to launch the second instance?

[high thicket]

I mean if you have a team to play with you automatically have 3 storages to work with

[high thicket]

That's above the technical know-how of most players, so I wouldn't consider that an issue.

[wary junco]

Do you have to pay a monthly fee for a virtual PC? Or are there free services of such kind?

[spice zephyr]

virtual machine is more so a program to have a contained separate system on your computer, it stimulates a safe enviroment mostly used for coding, but can also be used to overcome stuff like launching more than 1 instance of a game

[wary junco]

Are there free programs that provide such services?

[spice zephyr]

probably

I am not that technical so I never had a reason to look into it, but they should be able to get even a crappy one for free since launching DaD isn't a complicated task

[wary junco]

Might be a thing that i could consider, depending how often wipes happen.

[spice zephyr]

I think that any implementation of guilds would make trading between characters obsolete

since it's not like you could be in two guilds with separate characters but 1 account, so you will probably be in 1 guild with all characters, so you could drop something in the guild storage and then receive

[wary junco]

If people dont yoink it yeah

[spice zephyr]

DaD isn't a mmorpg, so the guilds will probably be limited to like 20 or 30 people, so I would assume that guilds would be built either on a common goal like streamer guilds, try hard guilds for grinding HR. The other type of guilds would probably consist only of people others trust enough to not steal.

[wary junco]

Or just make it so you can lock it to a specific account to pick out, so anyone who tries doesnt have the rights to take it from the Bank.... only the person that was previously selected

Fully prevents loot stealing

[spice zephyr]

I had a similar idea, but I more so thought that the guild storage would consist of separate compartments that the guildmaster would assign access to

[wary junco]

Makes sense or every account has a small individual storage and a big guild storage which is shared with anyone

Like storagespace of a bardiche halberd or pavise

[spice zephyr]

I see, yeah it would allow for better gear organisation

[signal rain]

When guilds come out ima make one for cracked rangers to set us apart from the usual rif raf. If You see the guild tag in your match’s kill fees you’ll known your playing against a ranger who don’t miss often

[wary junco]

I'll call my guild Scarlet crusade and the people will only be allowed to go into dungeons with Red gear.... only clerics and fighters ! FOR THE HOLY CRUSADE

[spice zephyr]

I need to buy a mic, The idea of being a cleric who chases other players while spreading gospel is just too tempting

[wary junco]

Naming my cleric Whitemain

Or the scarlet scourge and all people have to wear the red Skeleton cosmetic 😄

[spice zephyr]

I don't intend on making a guild unless I can't find a suitable one to join, and having a guild gives that much benefit(They will have to somehow deal with 1 player guilds being made just for storage)

[wary junco]

True

[lucid root]

I'm just picturing a guild doing organized queing so they occupy most of the lobby

[spice zephyr]

that could be a problem yeah

[lucid root]

Aww rip my suggestion

Did it filter out the word stupid? Guess not

[high thicket]

Don't know why people want to put starting equipment in stash.

[spice zephyr]

from my understanding it's so that you can do a naked run after getting geared, the problem is that they can just deposit everything, die and then have it on the ready

[abstract swallow]

it's because utilities come with the default kits

and while I, personally, endorse the return of the 42 Trap Ranger
I think the devs and most average joes don't

[lucid root]

My suggestion was kinda a nothingburger, but itd be nice if they added some trees with wide canopies in ruins so you cant see everything from a high vantage point

[abstract swallow]

moving some of the visual obscurement upstairs would be nice
the downstairs had a lot of good vegetation and rubble blocking important lines of sight or that offered opportunities to hide

[lucid root]

The foliage was kinda annoying

[abstract swallow]

I especially liked that, unlike B1/Crypt, lots of doors were only visible if you were on the same wall or parallel with it
it made having actual gamesense a lot more meaningful, as opposed to just being able to sit on 4+ chokes in a room at the same time outside of a handful of exceptions like Danger Junction and Tower Room

[glacial sphinx]

I also didnt like some areas with high vegetation tbh, especially near that wall with the door with the skeleton archers. You could have skellies shooting at you you can't see, and stuff dying where its almost impossible see where you have to loot

[abstract swallow]

yeah, AI needs to respect obscuring details and geometry
there were similar issues with the OG version of goblin caves

[ocean timber]

It feels weird that the giant ranger shield doesn't block damage when on ur back, makes sense for balance and all, just feels weird

[high thicket]

Imagine being completely immune to damage while running away

[ocean timber]

Yea that's why I get it 100%

[abstract swallow]

passive projectile blocking for shields would be nice, but I've played enough mordhau & friends to know that non-worn shields having effect just lead to cheesing

[dusky field]

Can we ban Ravenhill99 from making suggestions? There should be a limit of 1-2 leEpicTrollXDDD suggestions before you get banned... or executed.

[dusky field]

Agree with you here, it feels utterly weird. But I know 100% that implementing it would mean people turning 180dgs in between melee strikes, which absolutely nope

[abstract swallow]

I'm surprised that people disliked the Angelic Aspect spell idea so much, but maybe that's just people still being raw about mobility
it honestly seems super on-brand for the game

[dusky field]

Which one was that?

[abstract swallow]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

just some dork almost word for word describing the spell from D&D with some flappy angels wings
seems like a perfect 1-spellcap self buff for Cleric/potentially Paladin

[dusky field]

I honestly thought that was a troll suggestion... it's 100% not on brand my brother. No flying, that's for sure. Double jump is already a sin on the rogue, even worse on the cleric. And you wanted both a damage and a DR buff. And worst of all... shinning wings. Absolutely. Not. I'd sooner get 40k chainswords

[abstract swallow]

it wasn't mine, just some nerd's that I thought had a bit of soul to it

on the topic of 40k though, moving to a melee system closer to Darktide's would be a huge boon
light, heavy, secondary, alt-fire, push/push-attack would keep the static combos and low skill floor of the game while letting people have a little more hands-on control and weapon variety

honestly they need to move from static movement debuffs to proper movespeed curves during attacks
slow to start, brief acceleration on swing, slow to recover
the current system just leads to people jumping like rabbits at eachother to close distance for melee

[dusky field]

On the one hand I agree that the pvp needs a bit more nuance to it. I am one of the "Mordhau" guys since I really enjoyed the melee system there... until it became "everyone break your spine and turn into a helicopter!". The thing is, they don't actually want this to be a full pvp game. This is supposed to be a dungeon-crawling game. I've already made a suggestion in order for everyone to have what they want of the game (more dungeon crawling with different floors + the battle-royale style pvp) and most people seemed to agree on my suggestion. But I don't think a pvp "rework" or revision is their priority.

[abstract swallow]

honestly I wasn't even thinking of PvP until I started talking about movespeed curves
I've had a lot of hours in mordhau/chiv1 myself and am glad they're very hesitant to move in that direction
though ATM there's still a huge difference between players that know how to accel/drag and those that don't
weapons like Zwei and Halberd completely blow everything else out of the water with their ability to headshot near-instantly and then clank reset

[dusky field]

Yyyyyyes but I still don't think this is a priority for them

[late dome]

Just copy the combat systems from for honor and call it a day

[abstract swallow]

damn, For Honor
there's some seriously missed potential

actually, weapon clashing would probably be really good for the game, especially with a system of priority based on weapon weight/sweet vs sourspot
and it would help with the issue of attacks like Longsword riposte or all bardiche hits being countered by just walking it and counterhitting inside their sourspot

[strong cedar]

Dark and Darker should have a combo based combat system with a three point blocking system??

[late dome]

Yes

[strong cedar]

wouldnt be a bad idea if the devs were trying to kill their game

[late dome]

But make it like 10 directions to block like in kingdom come

[dusky field]

You people focus a bit too much on the pvp of the game even though that's not what the devs are going for

[strong cedar]

they dont want a complex combat system though, it would completely destroy the game

[abstract swallow]

I struggle to see how it'd work without a stamina system, if you leave it purely on effectiveness/timing then you solve none of the problems the current system has for a whole bunch of needless complexity

[strong cedar]

It wouldnt work, no one wants to do a LMB, RMB, Space, F, LMB to do an attack

[late dome]

But imagine a wizard parrying a barb with a dagger, that sounds pretty dope cmon

[strong cedar]

would turn the game into Mordhau, which no one plays anymore because the skill cap is to the moon. Would be cool to see another extraction game that uses that kind of combat system, but its not for Dark and Darker. I think the slow paced and simple combat system is why so many people enjoy the game. Requires players to think more and be more strategic instead of running in naked with a pan and destroying everyone with complete confidence

[high thicket]

Simplicity brings in hordes of regular casual players for veterans to feed on, which will keep the veterans occupied long term without every single match being full of sweats (like Tarkov).

[strong cedar]

true, if vets were only going up against vets, they would just continue to get better and better until it would be impossible for new players to enter

[high thicket]

The higher the skill ceiling, the higher the barrier of entry.

[tawny python]

there need to be a guild map idk like 20vs20

[dusky field]

Speaking about Mordhau, it's not just a problem of the skill cap being way too high, but also the way in which it turned out to be, and the response of the developers. People are arching their backs so far back they seem to have no spine, making ridiculous spins all around for what was supposed to be a realistic combat game with "fights that look like fights".

I agree that the combat must be kept simple, for broader appeal but also because the devs want a dungeon crawling game, not another pvp battle royale with a different flavour

[tame hare]

Then they probably should've made a PVE game based around leaderboards rather than literally making pvp battle royale with a different flavour

[strong cedar]

uhhhhhhh, they did though. Dark and Darker isnt just a pvp battle royale. Its big on PVE too with leaderboards designed for looting and killing bosses

[high thicket]

Easy fix to the bending backwards issue; have the character model only move it's head when looking up

[ripe haven]

Dark and darker is PvPvE, not simply "pvp and pve"

[high thicket]

One could argue it's more PvE focused since PvP is not strictly required to do anything

[placid canopy]

Does this need to be fixed? It seems like good skill expression

[high thicket]

No, it's not. It's confusing, disorientating, and not an intentional mechanic from what I understand. People with vertigo or motion sickness wouldn't be able to replicate that skill because of their own physical inability to look at the screen while it happens.

[placid canopy]

Dodging under or leaning away from someone swiping at your head is definitely a skill based thing with lack of vision during it for everyone being the trade off anyway because you literally look at the ceiling or floor... Using a disability for reason someone can't move their mouse fast is kinda weird and maybe just not the game for them then. Doing a 180 is the same in either direction. There are a LOT of mechanics in this game that require flicking your mouse

[dusky field]

"Should've made" implies that the game is already made, when literally it's not, in case you haven't been paying attention.

They're testing different mechanics as they develop it, and like it or not, they want to create a dungeon crawling looter extraction game. For all we know, the battle-royale-pvp is a temporary thing. That's why I suggested a way for the devs incentivize dungeon crawling while also keeping the pvp we've all been accustomed to by now.

[late dome]

I highly doubt theyll change the battle royale pvp at this point

[dusky field]

Me too, but if they really want to enact their vision of the dungeon crawling aspect, they will have to change some aspect of it. That's why I proposed that the three levels of the dungeon work differently each. In short: First floor has no circle, has bad loot, and has very few extraction portals (with many ways of going lower). Second level has the circle and better loot. Third level has a very slow circle with high tier loot on elite enemies.

I don't remember the command to show a suggestion, but here's the suggestion ID: 1740029

for the full explanation

[ripe haven]

I saw some of the suggestions amending forest level back into crypts and I had an inspiration. What if 1F is treated more like the play test 4 tavern hall/queue? No circle/swarm, but there is still a timer, and only grey loot and silver coins can be found. You must use the playtest 5.1 cellar doors to enter the castle, otherwise, at the end of the timer, you are automatically escaped if you are still alive. To address camping and other issues related to a lack of swarm circle, add some kind of cue or respawning mob that proves a certain kind of player is alive (think sea of theives mermaid).

What do you think?

[abstract swallow]

it's clear they want to go with a low skill-floor system that emphasizes itemization and footwork/positioning

if I were gonna change anything, trying to fulfill that goal, it'd be:
Move from monocombos to heavy/light attack inputs. (it can still be monocombos for both, you can already weave seperate weapons/combos freely so this is a logical endpoint for that system)
Fix all forms of AnimCancel.
Add a Block-Shove/Kick.
Add Weapon Clashing.
Change attack movement penalties to speed curves.
Nerf strafing and buff backpedaling.

[dusky field]

I think we're both trying to address a similar problem in different ways, but the automatic escape sounds like a good alternative to what I proposed, since my proposal kinda forced people to go lower anyway.

[ripe haven]

1F doesn't have to be brutal. The forest can be this neutral place everyone can zip through, if the devs want.

[signal rain]

No one wants mordhau combat that’s why that game is dying

[placid canopy]

You can actually go full speed in all directions and even while using items/reloading a bow if you mouse flick and jump to carry your forward momentum. These are the things people just don't know about yet that will eventually become popular for moments

[abstract swallow]

yeah, spinning for speed is goofy af
I can tell you for a fact that anyone that sees a clip of a Rogue just 180-ing and walking away from PvP attacks does not come away with a great opinion of the combat

[placid canopy]

Lol yeah you can also just spin your mouse with hyper sensitivity and a warmaul and have a full circle hitbox around you at all times. Also for whatever reason you can hit someone twice with one swing of the warmaul while doing that (didn't work with any other weapons)

[signal rain]

Adding a quiver under the cloak slot is a ranger nerf

[ripe haven]

Weapon clashing makes sense for teams but it would suck for solos: put a mini riposte-like bump in the combat animation; this would open opportunities for better team play. This would be a nerf to solo play. @abstract swallow

[signal rain]

Cloaks add stats. That I won’t be able to get cause of the quiver. And who cares if you have good inventory space when your dead. Better to use cloak for stats and give up inventory. Which with that scenario what good sis the quiver do

[placid canopy]

The quiver could just also roll stats and it would be the same

[signal rain]

If it gives stats and acts like a quiver I’m game but I feel like that could be a buff to ranger since cloaks were rare. Would a quiver be more common and if so you now have a item only rangers can use that add stats

[ripe haven]

Lol "cloak and dagger" unique for rogues.

[signal rain]

I think it’s better to make the quiver like a belt item like potions. That way you can see how many arrows you got an it allows you to use you a cloak and keeps your inventory free

[obtuse lichen]

omg just make it off-hand slot

[abstract swallow]

ignoring that the game is built around teams and not solos, it doesn't have to always result in recoil ala clanking/blocking, you can have more evenly matched/well-placed but much weaker clashes just result in a slowdown and reduced damage
currently the best play against lots of weapons is to just outspace them forever or to stand INSIDE them and swing through their hits while forcing the enemy to sourspot into your limbs

[signal rain]

That would work

[obtuse lichen]

stop developing the bicycle with square wheels

[ripe haven]

Or do silly parkour-like maneuvers and avoid hitbox hotboxes altogether...

[signal rain]

When you rush in their group and get one of them to kill their friends on its so sweet

[obtuse lichen]

calm down man lets not make it chiv

[ripe haven]

That's what Diablo did didn't it? Put the quiver next to the bow in the off hand equipment slot

[signal rain]

It makes the most sense

[obtuse lichen]

Thats what every normal developer does

[ripe haven]

Rangers dont need more nerfs.

[signal rain]

Rangers been the whipping boy these@last few pt

[placid canopy]

They might. Gotta wait for the stats

[ripe haven]

No way, based on pt4 stats, ranger was balanced. They don't need more nerfs after being put onto a lifetime prescription of ammunition

[placid canopy]

Ranger was still best loot collector by far last test and arrows in inventory was probably to specifically nerf that

[obtuse lichen]

Ranger has the best interaction speed because of his resourcefulness

[signal rain]

I feel like the reason rangers get the most loot is that rangers are usually in the back and they are fast and can open and close doors quick. So as the ranger when you see your team get wreck you have a good chance of just running away. Which I think is one reason we got more gold

[obtuse lichen]

You can straight up bm people with the doors on the ranger

[proud tinsel]

They are getting more nerfs, we have been talking about this for months the limited ammo was the original design

[ripe haven]

Effective rangers do not engage in direct combat; therefore, all effective rangers have the opportunity to escape before combat ever begins, which significantly improves survivability. Because the ranger survives better, it has a better chance at escape. This is not a balance issue, this is a skill issue.

[placid canopy]

Limited ammo was the original design cuz they eventually want different types of ammo like explosive or piercing or something

[obtuse lichen]

ranger wasnt okay in hr on pt4

[ripe haven]

Imo ranger is well rounded in playtest four. With no significant strengths, there were other more favorable classes to pick up for HR.

[abstract swallow]

imo standing in someone's attack to force them to land disfavorable hits feels a lot more like mordhau-style skillgap than hitting a dude's sword with my sword would be, especially when everything else in the game is built around collisions

[obtuse lichen]

dude dont make the game cancer i have 3k hours in mordhau no thank you

[wary junco]

I made another troll suggestion iam happy 🙂

[placid canopy]

Ranger was the best class in HR by FAR for loot taken out. And second or third i think for like everything else

[wary junco]

Aww man it didnt work i wrote it wrong

[signal rain]

No one wants mordhau there’s a reason that game is dying don’t bring that shit to dnd

[obtuse lichen]

i wasted on mordhau comp scene 3k hours for nothing i dont want to play in the casino bullshit

[wary junco]

What do you think about throwable potions? Wouldnt it be fun to make skeleton crossbowmen invisible 🙂

[signal rain]

Love it

[proud tinsel]

The problem with that is I have a better result on ranger by far than I do on any other class. There for its either not a skill issue or im only skillful on a ranger. Including this pt where rogue was quite strong and broken on the one map. Ranger was still stronger.

[obtuse lichen]

Would be nice to have an ability to use bandages or surgical kits on the teammate actually
really helpful if your teammate plays barb with low interaction speed

[wary junco]

Nah that would make way to much sense i preffer beeing able to throw invis potions onto enemy which can oneshot other clases xD

[placid canopy]

Ranger does have a completely different play style than any other class so it's possible you're just better at it but we gotta wait for the stats to see it as a whole

[abstract swallow]

yeah, I've got way too many hours in it as well, that's why I want to distance the game from it
the current meta of forcing limb hits into sourspots by just trading into someone feels like the same kind of 'how the ___ did I lose that?' garbo that Chambering was to most casuals

[obtuse lichen]

dont even try to argue with a people that want to buff ranger
just say 2 them git gud or something

[wary junco]

Ranger honestly is probably the strongest class, only gets countered by fighter considering he can just Tank more shots

1v1 sniper duel ranger loses to fighter if both hit equaly

[placid canopy]

Fighter just has like 5x the effective hp as a ranger so yeah

[obtuse lichen]

But fighter moves slow as fuck

[wary junco]

And? Proper geared fighter cam Tank about 20 shots xD

[abstract swallow]

in PT5 Cleric and Rogue were definitely stronger than Ranger
but Ranger is still up there with Wizard as classes that are just good at everything if played well

[obtuse lichen]

And he doesn't have quickshot and other abilities for bow

[wary junco]

Doesnt matter fighter just has to hit 3-4 shots where ranger has to hit 10-15

[obtuse lichen]

Just run pen shot if you scared of fighters

also you can always just bait him into the doors like a monk

[wary junco]

Never played ranger, fact of the matter is though that as fighter its kinda impossible to Die to ranger considering no one is running PEN shot

[placid canopy]

Pen shot is a meme when their other skills exist

[obtuse lichen]

Not really if you know what you're doing

[placid canopy]

To a lesser extent it's why thrust on rogue sucks

[obtuse lichen]

By friend was rocking thrust on the rogue and it was working really well

[abstract swallow]

PenShot is a meme because it's just projectile resistance

[placid canopy]

It's numerically only good against fighters and you have weakpoint for them so it just has no use

[abstract swallow]

testing has given mixed results, but Thrust seems to both get bonus damage on dummies (which have 0s in both resists) and gets value on targets suffering armor shred (ie: WPA)

[obtuse lichen]

not everyone uses the weakpoint

[placid canopy]

Thrust should not and can not give damage bonus vs a dummy

[wary junco]

I wonder if wekpoint rupture handcrossbow will be still a thing nwxt playtest that was wild

[placid canopy]

Then they're playing rogue wrong. It's the best option for damage

[obtuse lichen]

its the best option for damage if you have at least blue gear

[abstract swallow]

honestly there was no reason not to run Rupture+WPA with doublejump and handbow application existing

[wary junco]

Orlanthi comes around the corner and hits you with a 268 Cinder on the head.

[abstract swallow]

the fact that the most famous halberd fighter doesn't know how to accel it shows just how sad the fighter community is tbh

[placid canopy]

Rupture is just bad if you're not fighting another rogue cuz it gets affected by enemy debuff duration making it deal less dmg. It does like literally 1 damage to a cleric with preservance and protection from evil

[gaunt cargo]

More like he misses 6 times while his pocket cleric saves him repeatedly until he lands a hit.

[wary junco]

Kinda true

[ripe haven]

Whoops skill wasn't the right word. It's an ability issue. Ranger has the ability to disengage. Skill only enhances that ability. Consider the counter example, the barbarian; does not disengage very well at all, cannot block, can barely close a door. The barbarian must engage in direct combat, which is a natural risk in it's ability to survive. Skill makes up for the lack of survivability on the barbarian whereas, the ranger naturally survives better due to the ability to disengage effectively. So yes, that math adds up, the ranger naturally has more loot and pull than any other class. Ranger is not strong, per se, rather, Ranger is favorable for loot.

[wary junco]

268 was kinda absurd though i thought only barb could reach that high dmgwise

[gaunt cargo]

Balance at the top end of gear isn't very good right now. I'm sure they'll work on it.

[signal rain]

When I saw him hit for over 200 I was like wow ok

[abstract swallow]

on the topic of fall damage in that recent suggestion, it's not something that would really benefit the game
it'd either punish light or heavy classes, restrict dungeon mobility and hard-skillgap platforming elements, and not solve ANY problems with double jump (probably making it MORE oppressive in practice)
what should be added is a slowdown and grunt when you land from certain heights though, it gives intel and restricts positioning when dropping which is really all it needs to do

[wary junco]

You see i have seen quite a lot of ppl with Cinder now but just orlanthi Hits for those absurd numbers ... other just hit for 120-140

He must have had like a lot of str all stats and phy power

Is there actualy somekind of calculator which can calculate how all of the stats influence the weapon values?

[abstract swallow]

there's a few calculators out there
as for hitting a 240+ on Cinder, I can see it happening with old Divine Strikes incredibly easily

[gaunt cargo]

I'm sure he's rocking the best gear his viewers could find.

[wary junco]

Yeah these ppl get gear thrown at them, i'd decline it

[placid canopy]

Learning the formula isn't too bad and can take you further than a calculator

[wary junco]

What stat actualy scales best with fighter? Probably physical power right?

[placid canopy]

In general it's probably
Weapon damage > strength > + physical damage > physical power > true phys > physical dmg bonus > armor pen

[abstract swallow]

68 base + 12 flat damage + 50% power + divine strikes is enough to break 200 on dummies, and you could do that with just greens and blues with good bases

[wary junco]

Well you cant realy apply it to everyone like that right? Some classes scale diffrent

[placid canopy]

Yeah that's just generically better stats for damage using bis gear and a polearm

Like on a rogue you don't want weapon damage as much as + physical damage until your strength is at least 15

[wary junco]

As far as i remember rogue scales best with physical dmg

[abstract swallow]

the breakpoints are slightly different depending on the weapon of choice and starting stats, the diminishing returns from +power rarely see any actual impact

[wary junco]

Oh so power is just a very low stat then i guess? I always asumed it was bad at barb since he has so much of it and drs very quickly. I was unaware that the stat itself wasnt that good

[placid canopy]

Power is just strength without the hp

[wary junco]

Yeah but i expected it to scale better for the exchange of hp

[placid canopy]

Technically the % one doesn't diminish like the flat one, but it's still not great cuz it doesn't roll very high

[wary junco]

I guess the numbers are just to low to realy have an impact

[placid canopy]

This video is great at explaining how damage works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NL_go8NPW4

Magic is also the same except weapon damage is just book/ball damage

[wary junco]

Its almost like the classic league meta. On hit dmg or flat dmg is good for early / midgame or in this case just the fact that the gear doesnt give enough stats that the % can get better... but if in generel the stats would be higher the % would be better

[placid canopy]

Keep in mind that additional weapon damage is scaled by str/physical power at least so they kinda build on each other, but it's still hard to make it meaningful

[abstract swallow]

the fact that all weapons have the same 150% modifier on headshot makes damage scaling really whacky, especially with 0 restraints to stacking it on every slot

[placid canopy]

All weapons having the same headshot is fine. All weapons scaling the same with +1 damage on gear is the weird part

Faster weapons just become better at the top end unless you can hit 1shot breakpoints with a big weapon

And it's what made locust swarm the monstrosity it was at the start

[abstract swallow]

it's fine, but it could be better
it does feel like some weapons like War Maul are trapped in joke weapon tier because the damage range for weapons is artificially restricted by headshot modifier's existence

[placid canopy]

Warmaul is unironically good if you play the game in a non intended way by maxing your sensitivity and spinning with the lingering hitbox it has lol

[abstract swallow]

I love going full looney tunes on a motherfucker as Cleric
run around a corner, swap weapons, start the attack and 180 to crunch them while they were diving for a 'free kill'

[harsh plume]

perfect block should actually block

[pallid vapor]

What did perfect block even do? At first I thought it just meant that, if I am blocking I WILL block the next attack even if it hits my body. But I didn’t test it enough to find out

The wording makes it sound like they intend on having damage partially go through shields in the future but perfect block would make you not take chip damage for one hit

[somber wind]

Aculus from my testing it stops True and Piercing.

I wasn't able to test if it stops Magic too, but if it's doing that I would assume so.

[pallid vapor]

But doesn’t blocking an attack already make you take no damage at all, piercing, true, magic or otherwise? Ik you can block magic missile

[somber wind]

Piercing ignores as well as True, atleast I thought piercing did; I know piercing ignores armor but I thought it also changed the damage type internally so I might be wrong on piercing.

[pallid vapor]

Armor sure of course. I’m talking about successfully blocking an attack though, as perfect block says your next block is guaranteed to be successful. No idea what it means

[abstract swallow]

perfect block just gave you effectively infinite stamina for the next block, which was almost unnoticable with heaters

[pallid vapor]

As in your shield would stagger less?

[somber wind]

I saw that 20 people did the unsure on my suggestion so I'm wondering what people were unsure of.

.shortinfo 1742250

[eager sable]

Suggestion from Zandorum#6027

In the future, have "Regions" on the map where we select which Dungeon to go to; Each region will have a global loot table for what kinds of items can be in chests or dropped by enemies. This will allow in the future when we get more Dungeons to get more items without flooding the existing item pool to such an extent that it becomes too hard to get anything (An example is attempting to get a Mace is fairly hard, and adding more items to the loot tables will make it harder; this is true for other items as well).

This would allow for unlimited new items to be introduced without hurting the game as I feel like in the most recent test we saw a little bit of growing pains of having more items than before and what that's done to seeing specific items. So with this we won't need to worry about what happens with the addition of new items and we don't need to have the old drop tables get modified for the existing dungeons. This will also preserve the feeling of older dungeons as more come out (This doesn't mean we cant get new items added to regions in the future but that should be done very carefully).

Opinion:

+7

Suggestions Feed Post

[Suggestions Feed Post](#d-and-d-suggestions message)

Suggestion ID: 1742250 | Submitted at · May 2, 2023, 11:59 AM

[abstract swallow]

there's nothing particularly wrong with the idea, it's just not easy for anyone to see the benefits of its application or understand it at a glance

[somber wind]

Ah ok, yeah it's mostly so we don't end up getting too many items on the drop tables and end up having a harder time getting what you need for your class than we do now. I think we're right at the tipping point and if we get like 8 more items we could start seeing some more annoyance where people say stuff "I have gone 30 games and haven't seen even 1 Crossbow".

I think keeping it from getting to the point where we get gear starved is a good idea. We're for sure not there just yet but we're rolling up on it.

[abstract swallow]

there's another 'randomized dungeon' suggestion again
the game needs more intentionally designed dungeons than randomized

that said, this game would 100% flourish with a 'deep dive' style randomized-but-curated dungeon as a kind of weekly event or something

[somber wind]

I personally like the idea of a randomized dungeon that can be unfair with a warning when you attempt to join the dungeon.

Another option is like you said have it be a seeded dungeon that the seed changes every week or maybe every day so everyone runs that same dungeon.

[rugged falcon]

I feel it would only work for what theyre going for if its just like a 3x3 dungeon with their current pre-set rooms

[somber wind]

Could also show escape:death ratio

[somber wind]

Oh 100%, something like how binding of isaac uses pre-designed rooms that are connected randomly with some rules about how they could connect.

[rugged falcon]

Also yeah what you said there is a good idea

[abstract swallow]

that's basically how 90% of the existing maps are designed
variants largely made out of the same templates with a different 'center'

[next hinge]

Ranger slower speed? It's already the slowest class out there lmao

[granite plinth]

Not true lmao

[next hinge]

and the only class with Cleric that has no movement speed perks or skills

[harsh plume]

perfect block should 100% block the next attempted attack..... it doesnt do that

if its not going to block it ... its not perfect rename it then...

[granite plinth]

Ranger can 2 tap from down a hallway they dont need to be able to run fast but also there needs to be more viability for traps. they need to have higher interaction speed and more options for traps. Ranger has like 1 or 2 playstyles when it comes to skills.

[next hinge]

they already have the highest interaction speed. They can't 2 tap anyone except maybe Rogue if you can it them mid Double jump headshot and wizard.

[granite plinth]

they need more playstyles similar to rouge or fighter.

[next hinge]

Give them a speed burst then don't remove their already lacking movement

[granite plinth]

rouge has highest i think and i ask if you have ever encountered a long bow. they 2 tap

[abstract swallow]

the man is living in PT3
take me back with you

[next hinge]

they are the easiest class to rush next to cleric. But cleric can fight back close quarters.

[spice zephyr]

Take me back to PT 3 too so I can play more

[abstract swallow]

[spice zephyr]

Also so that we can tell ironmace about Nexon being sulky

[granite plinth]

ive only played 4 and 5 bro im just saying ranger needs work. more then any other class, i like arrows and bolts but they have to be fixed and ranger absolutely needs more playstyles. Traping Tracking ect need to be a strong suit of the ranger

[abstract swallow]

Ranger will get spellcasting in the Class Trainer system, and will be the best utility item user when they add Resourcefulness' substats and its deploy speed/utility effectiveness/equip slots

[granite plinth]

yeah i hope that doesnt step to hard on druids toes if they end up adding druid

[abstract swallow]

druid will have wildshape, they'll be fine

[spice zephyr]

#d-and-d-suggestions message About this idea, as much as I would love cleric to have more custom casting gear, and as much as I want to spread christianity over the voice chat, I don't think that a cross should be added considering the setting

[granite plinth]

I love jesus thats why im a cleric main. I really think flails and war hammers def need to be added. if they ever add a whip class of weapons also super mando for the cleric.

maybe one of those frankincense holders that the catholics use for casting but it doubles as a flail. would be awesome.

[fierce relic]

what about templar armor ? how does it fit in the setting ?

[spice zephyr]

Whips just sound like a bad idea, it would essentialy be a mix of ramged and melee, creating a really awkward combat range where it probably would be better to just cast judgement

[dusky field]

No flail for barbarian, that should be strictly a fighter/cleric weapon

[granite plinth]

How do Molotov cocktails fit the setting

[dusky field]

Greek fire. But yeah I also do not like them

[granite plinth]

Bruh i mean the bottle theres no glass bottles in middle ages i know its a fantasy but thats what they are based off of

or atleast glass bottles that look like a Corona lmao

[spice zephyr]

Got me there, to be frank I just don't want addition of any items that would highly emphasize on clerics being servants of a major religion, I feel like it would just not work out

[fierce relic]

if there is Templar armor for cleric, why wouldn't he use cross or any other christian attribute for casting

tbh i all i want is offhand casting option for cleric 😄 i just try to squeeze within lore 😄 hail satan

[granite plinth]

Idk i feel like if they did it directly it could be controversial

[spice zephyr]

Well if we want to nitpick, the fighter can too wear the templar armour without any religious characteristics, although it is obviously implied that the setting follows the christian religion(especially with the saint Valentine being there for quite a bit), I don't think that the ironmace should push it

[granite plinth]

Dont hail satan. satan wants you to burn in hell for all of eternity theres nothing about him that loves you any gift from a devil is bound to destroy you and he knows it. Satan is the embodiment of everything you dont want to hail.

They should add races i want to play as a black person

[fierce relic]

yeah give cleric whatever saint Valentain is holding in his hand

[granite plinth]

clergy staff i think

[spice zephyr]

My discord broke so my message got voided twice, I was suggesting a censer since while mainly used in christianity, it's not a direct symbol of the religion

[granite plinth]

i was saying they should ad an incense holder on a chain. like they use in the catholic church. that can cast spells but doubles as a weapon kinda like the magic staff

[dusky field]

I rather they just add a totally-not-a-cross kind of trinket