suggestion-discussion

[meager jasper]

Meanwhile the fighter has a less efficient weapon by design and probably needs to get that anyway on a barb's big health pool. Let's be generous and say two swings because he's got all purples.

One juke. That's what you're suggesting. One juke in the correct direction and a landed hit to beat a purple fighter. You're absolutely delusional about this being in any way reasonable.

Sounds like a really well designed game you've made.

[viral current]

I missed the suggestion time 😭 who else is gonna ask for freshwater dungeon fishing to be added?? or a DaD meme channel separate from fanart

[real trellis]

Yo what, why is the suggestion channel closed again? After only 6 days?

[meager jasper]

I don't think it actually is.

[real trellis]

You can still type in the channel but the bot says "❌closed"

[meager jasper]

There's been plenty of suggestions since that was posted there.

[long meteor]

anyone have torrent file?

[meager jasper]

Playtest is closed bud.

[long meteor]

:c

[worldly elbow]

💀

[junior anchor]

stop listening to redditors telling you to change core game mechanics

this is how new world went from an open world full loot pvp game to a dead on arrival mmo

[meager jasper]

this

[real trellis]

Put it up as a suggestion, coward

[digital lance]

man lmao this was a wild convo to follow. you have the patience of a saint for staying so polite the whole time despite every single reply being aggressive. that was a hilarious punchline to finally get him to admit it LOL

where i come from we get upset over 5% differences in pvp games lol. a 50%gap for gear mattering as you suggest is very reasonable on your part and will still allow for extraction style "outplaying" moments, which is the whole point of these kind of games lol. E.g. running around in dayz fully kitted and understanding that you CAN AND WILL die to some random naked bambi getting a lucky punch on you when youre not paying attention... is the Entire.Point.Of.The.Game! If gear causes the kind of 300% gulf separation he is asking for, where you dont have a snowballs chance in hell of doing anything.. then you are no longer scared to lose this precious gear to naked people. the whole point of these games is that tension, that fear of whats around the corner, am i going to lose everything to some fearless naked guy with nothing to lose?

[real trellis]

If they cap physical DR at 50% they'd need to get rid of armor ignoring/reducing effects

[meager jasper]

That's not the point of an extraction game which is the whole point bud.

[worldly elbow]

... what conversation were you reading?

[digital lance]

i tagged it up above

[worldly elbow]

I meant in what world was david not being aggressive too

[real trellis]

I think capping physical DR at about 70 would give geared fighters enough tankiness to justify balling out and going geared without allowing them to do silly crap like facetanking the cave troll because it can only do like 11 dmg per hit to them

[digital lance]

it will take you a while to get fully caught up on the whole convo and it keeps going after the post i tagged/replied to as well lol

[real trellis]

95% DR fighter is a huge problem because it forces the use of armor ignoring/reducing skills to even have a chance on phys-based characters. I don't believe that there should ever be a point where you have 0% chance to win just because you took one active instead of another.

[meager jasper]

You're allowed to disagree but I literally pointed out him throwing ad hominem at me. And sure, turn about is fair play, but it sounds like you have some reading comprehension issues.

[meager jasper]

I'm not sure about this to be honest. I'm not convinced it will be a problem in the final product when we've got a warlock as well as hopefully a re-buffed wizard who can actually damage them walking about. The more the meta trends toward magic the less likely a fighter is to focus that aggressively on DR.

And there are still options even for fighters like that. True Damage is a thing, even if it's not amazing.

[real trellis]

There's no reason not to focus on DR as fighter because your only alternative is to run slayer. Stacking MR is not nearly as easy as stacking DR because those pieces of gear which give MR do not have the MR value scale up with rarity. Even on BIS barbarian with iron will you can only reach about 40% magic damage resistance. And pointing at the existence of caster classes to say "well fighter's okay actually" is laughable.

[visual pulsar]

Wouldn’t it be fun if combat was no skill and we just Neanderthal hit each other and whoever has better gear wins?

[digital lance]

idk man, it feels like perhaps it is an ESL issue or something and maybe we are not picking up on the same subtleties in the way you guys are communicating back and forth? its black and white and plain as day to me lol. i just wanted to let him know that i was equally as perplexed while watching the convo slowly unfold to that punchline lol

[meager jasper]

There's a couple of penetration skills etc. Maybe even weapons should have penetration values - Maces are historically great against armour. So are some piercing weapons.

[loud grove]

It’s only a big difference because a green sword can take 3-5 swings and purple swords can one shot headshot (with the right gear)

[worldly elbow]

The thing is, in order for a fighter to get to %95 DR they have to have invested in that to the detriment of other skills, and like you said there are options for those in order to counter it even on the physical damage classes.

[loud grove]

I think the armor thing is pretty crazy but they’re adding more magic classes to the game. Once warlock and Druid are out basically every party will have magic damage and it’ll balance out.

[visual pulsar]

“I don’t want a skill based game”

[digital lance]

LOL yes that would be a blast! and i think maybe we are seeing the big picture because this argument is actually what every 1300 hardstuck pve player wants in wow and ranked matches. very common desire. and very commonly NOT done by devs for good reasons. it kills games lol. Archeage for example. Another RMT ruined game with power gap exactly like yo udescribed

[meager jasper]

Did I stutter?

[visual pulsar]

Zen already expressed he wants armor only to be why you dominate other players. No skill. Gear only.

[loud grove]

Imagine having good gear and still doing bad lol

[meager jasper]

Skill is a factor, but it's a low factor in comparison to positioning tactics and gear. Of course I already said that, and you know that.

[real trellis]

There are options which take up the spots of limited active skill slots that can help to mitigate extreme DR but otherwise don't help all that much and I don't think that being forced to slot those skills or lose is a good game design choice.

[visual pulsar]

He would prefer the game be an auto clicker game. Where we just show up and whoever has worse gear falls to the ground and sobs.

[loud grove]

Positioning tactics is literally part of being skillful at this game lol

[digital lance]

yeah thats the point of my chiming in to let david know hes not crazy. you did actually say that, word for word. You even sent like 5 other messages to outline it and make sure there was no chance of a misunderstanding. lol we all obviously have very very different ideas about what the game should be. It sounds to me like you would much prefer to play offline RPGs where you kill pve mobs

[real trellis]

Positioning is literally skill lmao what

[digital lance]

if you want positioning to be the only skill yo uprob want more RTS style games with hex boards or like XCOM or something

[meager jasper]

We were talking about skill in combat, which is largely non-existent, as you seem to agree except for a few niche class things like parrying and managing a spell wheel

[visual pulsar]

For a guy named Zen he also has no chill. Be careful disagreeing with him or he will go full president trump on you and start slinging “Hurr Durrss” like a real scholar.

[loud grove]

Strafing is the main way to fight at this game and it takes a lot of skill to not get hit

[real trellis]

The whole entire point of this game being pvpve is so that there's a challenge and thrill beyond killing mobs. If gear gaps make a fight unwinnable then you might as well be killing a skeleton footman.

[digital lance]

100% agree dousiq

[visual pulsar]

Yes 🙌. But Zen said I was the only one that thought this way

[meager jasper]

Small gear gaps should be surmountable. I never said they shouldn't. I said the way gear is now is good. You shouldn't be able to run up to someone in purple and win, naked, regardless of what you're doing unless you're amazingly lucky.

[real trellis]

Funny because naked rogue with a decent rapier was pretty meta tbh

[meager jasper]

Of course, David here is now aggressively content in strawmanning what I said. I said as a broad design decision the game should be about gear first and foremost. That's not out of left field for an extraction game.

And yeah, rebalance classes like rogue lol.

[visual pulsar]

He didn’t like the idea of trading hits with the same class, needing to hit them half as much to kill them while still retaining 50% more health at the end. That wasn’t big enough gap. He wants full chad mode

[meager jasper]

If the combined value of purple gear was 50% increase in damage, across all of them, that would not be a valuable gear system. And that's clear and obvious to anyone who understands the math.

[late dome]

Bro what💀💀💀💀

[visual pulsar]

Right? Wild

[digital lance]

lol thats the punchline i was referring to earlier, glad to see others are catching up now too. ill leave this for other suggestion discussions now so we dont clog it even more haha

[rapid pier]

Pls vote compatibility with Mac Os system. I only have 1 pc and is for my work, and is mac. From the beginning i was watching every stream about DnD. I wish some day i wil play. I really wanted to play. My work isnt the best, but they let me play in the mac in after hours. Plis like the suggestion pls plss. I really really want to play this game u.u

[visual pulsar]

Ahh but he did say my peers that gave me confirmation were morons and arm chair folk. So be careful agreeing with me and being contrarian to his no skill game.

[real trellis]

Weapon damage outscales armor values super fast across rarity tiers with the notable exception of plate

it's even worse for magic resist

A barbarian rocking 40% damage resist has to deal with the fact that simply buying a white book increases a wizard's spell damage by 50%

[meager jasper]

Chat is filled with redditors who think the majority of game design is not about making you feel skilled when you aren't.

[real trellis]

Don't meme arrow here this isn't your redchanit underwater basketweaving forum experience

[visual pulsar]

We you’re in the minority with “I don’t want a skill based game I want a gear based game”

[meager jasper]

Yeah and bowing to that idiotic opinion would ruin the game.

[digital lance]

would ruin YOUR vision of the game. *

[real trellis]

having the game be a bit more skill based and a bit less of a braindead numbers game would ruin it, you heard it here first folks.

[meager jasper]

It would not be the first time a majority of imbeciles asked for something they didn't know was trash and then the devs implemented it.

[digital lance]

well, with that point you are correct. no one can argue that haha.

[real trellis]

r/Iamverysmart

[trim maple]

tf is this discussion about im too lazy to scroll thru all your intelligent discussion

[meager jasper]

I'm not very smart. I understand that the game is about loot. And you're suggesting making the loot matter less. By a 250% reduction. While removing Trade.

That's not something I need to be smart to say is stupid. Because it's hugely stupid.

[digital lance]

basically the convo right now is boiling down to how much gear should matter in a duel scenario. comparing it to other games historically with pvp scenes, with a bit of RMT thrown in.

[visual pulsar]

Your opinion is that it would be ruined. Good luck with that “no skill” game everyone wants to play…

[real trellis]

If the game were purely about loot and not about skill then combat encounters would play out JRPG style dude

[meager jasper]

And again, everyone wants to play it now, imbecile. See how they play it when people reduce all stats by 250%

[trim maple]

i mean this game is supposed to be kinda rng-based. have u not played actual dungeons and dragons

[visual pulsar]

I’ll never not quote this. Right out of the horses own mouth. This is all anyone needs to read. Really embarrassing tbh.

[viral current]

I think we should be able to fish :D

[digital lance]

need a pin tbh lol

[late dome]

Now this I can get behind

[meager jasper]

And just because it's a "hot take" doesn't mean it's not correct. This game doesn't require a lot of skill, it requires good gear, and is good the way it is now.

[viral current]

@real trelliscan you also include in your suggestion low tier clarity potion? I would buy them occasionally if I could, when I was geared up on my wizard

[trim maple]

also like it isn't purely a skill-based game?! loot is one of the primary deciding factors for whether you need to actually try or just close your eyes and hold m1 in any encounter

[real trellis]

We want to play it, yes. But there is an expectation that those things we dislike will change over time as player feedback is received. This last PT was an absolute nightmare of bugs, DDOS, and balance problems, but we played it anyway so we could get a grasp on what needs to change for next time, and yes because it was still fun.

[trim maple]

if u have full uniques/golds/purples you can just farm gold endlessly with no contest because that's how the game is supposed to be, you earned that loot and now you get to use it

[viral current]

[real trellis]

I think clarity potions are best sold by players over the marketplace so that fighters have a reason to extract with them

[viral current]

that's a true point, but still, if they capped it at one single lowest tier clarity potion for the alchemist, I don't think it would impact ppl wanting to buy white/green/blue/purple ones. I would stock up on as many tiers as I could

[visual pulsar]

Listen, I don’t want to get good at a game or play anything that requires skill just as much as the next player man. Dont need to convince me 🥳

[meager jasper]

I am merely positing that reducing the overall value of loot is a bad idea. Do you also think that it's a good idea? The way I see it, most of the balance issues lie mostly in the way the classes operate, but they're also fully intended to be non-symmetrical. Rogues own too much of the meta now for instance - Wizards got the shaft, and so did rangers. As a knock on effect you don't have anyone running around who can easily deal with fighters and fighters don't do too badly against rogues... and so on.

[rough elm]

Is it so hard to understand ? Game is currently 50% Gear and 50% skill favour one side and the game will feel unbalanced. New players will suffer either way if you take either for more skill or more gear

[late dome]

Clarity potions should briefly reveal all fish in the nearest freshwater source so it's useful for non-casters (unless that cast is from a fishing rod)

[viral current]

🎣

[meager jasper]

Agreed. As a wizard I too like to cast.

[viral current]

Sometimes I like to cast too much and use it on monsters instead of ppl, oops

[visual pulsar]

So far the biggest use I have seen for these has been clerics killing red floor bosses. I would also like some additional use for them. But revealing players locations? Is what what you are saying? Forgive me I’m not following the fish freshwater analogy unless it’s a joke 🥹😅

[trim maple]

Also good on Wizard builds that dont use meditate

[meager jasper]

I hope they end up adding the clarity potion to the alchemist.

[real trellis]

A handful of people in this discord find it HILARIOUS to repeatedly ask for fishing and fishing-related mechanics in Dark and Darker

[visual pulsar]

Lol alright, I have seen this meme a few times, I didn’t want to walk right into it as I didn’t really know xD

[visual pulsar]

Fair enough, I did not play wiz this PT. I got sick of using 5 fireballs on a zombies head and then not dying 😭

[dense sand]

The game is in alpha and not balanced yet lol

[viral current]

I hope they take that suggestion of making meditation into a perk instead of an ability.

I also love the idea of an ultimate spell of sorts to replace mediation as an ability. Mby one time cast only, either an AoE DoT field you can place or one that goes around you. Doesn't deal a ton at once, but will if you stay in it. Something that can compete with 10 spell wizard but isn't insanely broken. It could mostly be used for area control or to break away from a fight. Having only a single use will make wizards hesitate to use it willynilly possibly. Would need finetuning.

[viral current]

unfortunately that is just how it be as default loadout wizard. I could 3 hit them with magic missile when I was geared up in blues :C

[late dome]

You didn't hear? They already confirmed it for EA

[tulip hill]

What are your guy's thoughts on reducing the time it takes to plunder the treasure pile while also reducing how much loot it gives per search?
I find it kinda silly that you can't just quickly grab a small amount of treasure

[viral current]

that is me, I am that person

[abstract swallow]

I'd rather it be longer and give more options of what to take so there isn't a pile of 100+ blue plates on the ground.

[tulip hill]

like maybe it opened a temporary chest UI and you take what you want from it then start searching again?

[abstract swallow]

That'd be an improvement as well.

[azure summit]

https://tenor.com/view/united-arab-emirates-national-day-emirati-flag-gif-13035418

Add Middle East Server.

[edgy hound]

hear me out, chainmail based armour for heavier ranger players not too heavey like a plate, but not as light as leather or cloth. and rogues would have darker colored lighty plated leather armour. the reason for this suggestion is because rogues and ranger have the least unique armour out of all the class with 3 uniques for range and 4 for rogues

[hazy tulip]

nerf physical dmg reduction buff magic dmg reduction. Its weird that better armor increases armor rating but not magic resist.

[shrewd lagoon]

Armor should not give you magic res, it should take it away. The only magic res items should be robes, leather, and cloth items.

[abstract swallow]

I agree fellow non-caster, all equipment should make those poor casters do more damage. Just having 0 way to itemize for MDR isn't enough.

[tulip hill]

I think they are talking about how the rarity of armor only increases their physical resistances but, the regal gambeson for example, has 10 magic resist at every rarity

[shrewd lagoon]

Ah I getcha. I agree it should go up in rarity, possibly something they overlooked

[abstract swallow]

Given that the math for MDR is different and comes from Will as well, I'd say it's not overlooked but simply not yet developed.

[tulip hill]

if I recall correctly the max magic resist you can possibly get is like around 60%
and that's giving up other rolls in order to maximize MDR and Will

[lone crescent]

Armor rating should work different, it should give a big amount of boost per point then low then high again, right now AR is trash unless you are fighter or cleric.

I'm not saying making all classes tanky, but armor right now is just for sta rolls

Every class should be able to reach like 30-40%, maybe 50% too damage reduction pretty easily, wizard, ranger and rouge can compensate with low hp

[hazy tulip]

Right now there is hardly no point for fighters to wear anything but plate. The pdr is too good compared to the miniscule mdr you get and movespeed difference. This makes high end wizards op imo, against every class. except barbarian since they have magic resist perk

[tulip hill]

Very true
the current DR curve is strangely set up in a way that makes the Armor rating of everything besides plate basically meaningless

[upbeat sapphire]

Or just keep things as is.. Let the beefy classes be beefy and such.

Edit: Did you know..... That plate is considerably more durable than leather irl?

[shrewd lagoon]

Can you tell me how to cast fireballs irl as well? Asking for a friend

[upbeat sapphire]

Two jokes in one, I like it 😂

[lone crescent]

Like i said I don't want all classes to be tanky, i just want armor to be useful other then plate armor, a white geared fighter has more defense then a purple geared barb, does it make sense?

[abstract swallow]

You need an aerosol can, a lighter, and balls.

[upbeat sapphire]

This

[shrewd lagoon]

Wow then this game is so unrealistic smh

[upbeat sapphire]

I fear changing stuff like that might end up changing what feels so great about this game too. It's a slippery slope to turn a game into bullet-sponge, or whatever the equivalent for this game would be.. Sword-sponge?

[lone crescent]

No the game should work with diminishing returns for high armor values, you can't stack armor until you become immortal

[glacial sphinx]

i think the DR amounts are fine, and its okay for a fighter to be a lot more armored since barb has more HP and more access to MR. Only the cap should be somewhere around 80-85% probably

[hazy tulip]

Thats why im saying nerf pdr and buff mdr scaling. Less tanky, more tanky, evens out.

[lone crescent]

Maybe 50% is too much yeah but right now armor outside plate is too low

[upbeat sapphire]

But then you make the already nerfed wizards even worse. Do we buff wizards to compensate? Wouldn't that make them too good vs ppl with no MDR gear?

[trim maple]

I feel like the scarcity of MDR is a good thing tbh, it makes magic an effective counter against geared fighters

[hazy tulip]

Wizard is so weird cus its terrible with low end gear but insane with high end gear. Imo they need to stabalize wizard scaling

[upbeat sapphire]

The way I see it: Currently if you work as a team, fighter can work as a defence with his high PDR while being weak to magic. Rangers' weak to PDR (and MDR) but can take shots from afar to counter magic. And so on

[lone crescent]

Wizard is even a temporary class, it will split into wizard and sorcerer

[tulip hill]

wizard also take a good amount of decision making skill to get good value

[glacial sphinx]

What makes you say that, I think they'll just add a sorcerer without taking anything from wizard. Honestly if they do they'll ruin the class it needs more spells if anything

[abstract swallow]

We can't really change Resistance math until:

More armor bases are added
Substats and associated mechanics are finished (weight, etc)
Rarity scaling is fixed (likely alongside this and an armor revalance

[upbeat sapphire]

I'd argue any class is insane with high gear. Wizards just gets more value if you're good at making decisions due to the nature of their attacks (ranged magic)

@trim maple ; Yes, a real glass cannon. One wrong step into a rogue or ranger = dead

[trim maple]

Wizard is like the definition of a squishy DPS tbh. I feel like his base kit needs a buff though, magic staff is just so mid

[hazy tulip]

Yeah, hence why im saying the high end skilled wizards are still real good, if not thee best class at them lvls. Its fair for a skilled class to be good, but when some other classes dont havee that skill ceiling, what can they do to counter it.

[glacial sphinx]

Wizard with high gear atm is not at all more insane than something like ranger or fighter with high gear. Its just underpowered at low gear now

[lone crescent]

Imagine you find a northern tunic, wich is rare, it doesn't have amazing rolls and AR is so insignificant that you just get debuffed if you equip, it doesn't seem fair

[upbeat sapphire]

This

[tulip hill]

They could introduce something similar to Fallout's DR/DT system in order to give them more things to work with when it comes to making armor different from each other

[upbeat sapphire]

But you're a barbarian.. Don't you want to run the perk where no body armor = more dmg anyway? Until you for sure have good gear?

[lone crescent]

I think they said in a previous QnA or something, I can't confirm 100% tho

Wizard is the buffer

Sorcerer the magic dps

[tulip hill]

actually because of your larger health pool the small amount of DR does make a bit of a difference but then again movement speed is even more important on barb

[trim maple]

Honestly I just want custom item names and models for epic/legendary gear, I feel like the stuff we have now just shows up as any rarity because they haven't made us our cool-looking glowy sets of armor yet

[lone crescent]

No i want armor to be good, why low rarity armor for barb even exist then?

[tulip hill]

that makes sense, make Wizard a swiss army knife of spells while Sorcerer is the one that just blows shit up

[hazy tulip]

When they got a book and cast speed, they are the fastest class, nobody catches up. 4 fireballs in 4 seconds, zap zap zap is undogeable, aoe entire teams. As far as im concerned only a ranger can counter them with two headshots. If mages can scale their dmg then armor should scale magic resistance. Atleast slightly rather than nothing rn.

[upbeat sapphire]

I think sorcerers will just have different offensive spells available to them. Weird if they add placeholder spells to wiz and change them later

That begs the question: Why does "Savage" perk exist? Probably so you can make up for the low-end armor while keeping movespeed

[lone crescent]

Tunics under a certain rarity is throwing and high rarity is throwing too if it doesn't have amazing rolls

[tulip hill]

I imagine there will be a bit of an overlap, can't imagine a world where either of them don't have fireball
I could see them giving chain lighting to sorcerer exclusively though

[trim maple]

I want a spell that can reanimate enemies as minions

[lone crescent]

They don't have enough perks, skills and spells to make 2 classes at the moment

[upbeat sapphire]

Perhaps. Or the sorcerer gets a different type of lightning spell

[lone crescent]

Savage is an amazing perk, don't get me wrong, but i want to be able to use armor too and not forced into unga bunga mode

[tulip hill]

@latent tundra I understand there is a 6 hour limit to posting a suggestion but listing several wildly different suggestions is asking to be downvoted
if someone disagrees with any of your points they will likely downvote the whole post

[lone crescent]

Just write them into notes and post them in different days

[tulip hill]

I honestly want more perks for barbarian that gives benefits for not wearing armor
as much as people complain about the naked meta I think it should stay viable for specifically barbarian

[glacial sphinx]

The thing is, naked also means not risking any gear which you don't really want for more than 1 slot

[upbeat sapphire]

From what I can tell on Wizards in Dungeons and Dragons: They have quite a bit of spells. Including chain lightning, fireball, magic missile etc... Sorcerer has similar spells, but also some that are different. I imagine they'll be putting other spells in for that class

[glacial sphinx]

Lightning bolt, disintegrate, cone of cold

[lone crescent]

That's fine already, you get less defense but insane damage

[hazy tulip]

Do they have haste and invisability?

[obsidian portal]

I like the idea of certain items being rarer than others (like capes really only dropping from second level and high rollers) maybe a system like this for weapons, sorta like the difference between longsword and zweihander but instead of it being different classes it's the same fighting style as the previous more common weapon but a better overall weapon in terms of stats, maybe you can find a better instrument than a lute as bard or something idk, just a thought to add more uniques to the game get the trade chats really popping I love the in game player trading

[upbeat sapphire]

Was about to say: Imagine cone of cold in DaD xD

[glacial sphinx]

yeah, honestly in DND sorc and wizard lists have huge overlap

[hazy tulip]

what does that do

[upbeat sapphire]

Yeah, both of them do. And what Venger said, they have a lot of overlap. They could quite easily choose to define their version of Sorcerer by different spelltypes

[glacial sphinx]

They could keep that imo, with a few exceptions and just focus on making them unique by having different skills, like meta magics for sorc to alter the spells and maybe giving sorc some passive spell recovery

[upbeat sapphire]

Not sure. But I imagine it'd have to be similar to Cone of Cold in World of Warcraft.. Can't imagine any other way. It's a cone of frost dmg with slow

[tulip hill]

depending on the edition, Wizards and Sorcerers have more or less overlap in Dungeons and Dragons
5th edition for example they are extremely similar but generally speaking Wizards will have a wider selection of spells at any given point while sorcerers choose a handful of spells that they can cast a lot of times

[hazy tulip]

I just want any counter to wizards that is not two arrows to the face

[upbeat sapphire]

I see. I think it's more likely that they'll get different spells with other skills/perks and advantages/disadvantages though. For the sake of balance

[glacial sphinx]

yeah guess so as well, more will probably bit less knowledge

[brittle jasper]

ppl always say "oh just throw axes or daggers" like everyone just has an unlimited amount of throwables

[obsidian portal]

Starting wizards get blown up and it's hard to get that early game startup but after a wizard gets a few items it feels like the only thing capable of killing him is his own fireball lol

[upbeat sapphire]

It is a team game ofc, so bring a cleric and/or ranger/fighter. Perhaps even a rogue to bait the wizard

[obsidian portal]

He's just in a really funky spot imo need to give him better time early on but make him less of a nuke factory late game

[tulip hill]

hahaha my rogue always had like 15 daggers because I rarely needed to use them and didn't have space to put them away

[brittle jasper]

yeah and rogue is like the one damm class that has movement speed and invis so they dont need daggers anyway

[upbeat sapphire]

My mate played rogue almost all playtest. I just baited for him so he could stab a hole in the wizards' hat. Worked almost every time

[hazy tulip]

Dont say rogues is a counter to wizard, rogues is a "counter" to any class by getting in a sneak attack.

[upbeat sapphire]

True. I'm just saying, it's about teamwork 😛 Game isn't balanced around 1v1s

[hazy tulip]

Yeah, but lets not forget the wizard also got a team.

[brittle jasper]

imo with the amount of tools such as double jump and hide that rogue has he should have his dps nerfed so he has a harder time in a direct fight

[tulip hill]

especially when running Weakpoint
nice 80% DR, lets make that 40 :)

[upbeat sapphire]

My point still stands. If you're struggling that much vs wizards, try reconsidering how you play as a team 😛

[hazy tulip]

Yeah, and when the rogue is geared weakpoint does more dmg than rupture unless they are running magic build.

[tulip hill]

Rogue already gets killed in 1-2 hits, they have plenty disadvantage in a fair fight

[upbeat sapphire]

Indeed. Real answer is nerfing/removing double jump imo. Did not enjoy naked cape-wearers, double-jumping past me in high speed. I main rogue too, btw. Just cancer for everyone, especially ranged players

[hazy tulip]

I try my best, getting better, im not the best or anything. But playing around enemy wizards is in my experience just a lot more difficult compared to any other class. Again, just my opnion that high geared wizards are still a bit strong overall.

[tulip hill]

I will continue to advocate for wall jump
Fixes many of the issues in the ruins map and makes rogue have to think about their positioning when using it in combat

[brittle jasper]

to be perfectly honest i kinda just want rouge nerfed out of viablity beacuse he stands for a lot of core aspects of the game that i don't find fun

[tulip hill]

Rogue seems like such a big issue because it is really good at exploiting game design oversights
basically they really like cheese, like the rats they are

[upbeat sapphire]

I don't mind double jump, if they nerf the turn-acceleration mid-air. That way you can't dodge everything coming at you, so that double-jumping bears risk. All though, it does basically make PvE meaningless. You just double-jump counter anything (traps and AI)

[brittle jasper]

ranger and his long range is not fun but i can respect it, rogue uses map jank, stealth and running away all things that are not fun to lose to and thus he should not be very good so i don't have to deal with his annoying play style

[tulip hill]

Those axe skeletons can still catch you if you're not careful

[upbeat sapphire]

True. But if you jump double-jump sideways, you counter their every attack. Same with spearmen.

[glacial sphinx]

I do get what you mean, you have to be very careful tuning a stealth class. Honestly wizard and ranger as well, both could be oppressive if they are overpowered

[upbeat sapphire]

Rangers were oppressive past playtests. Geared rangers hitting you hard with their epic longbows/crossbows and unlimited ammo holding an angle. Basically forced you to retreat, especially if they had trap down and cleric/fighter guarding them

[tulip hill]

Honestly thinking about it, I wouldn't mind rogues getting some kind of overall DPS nerf as long as assassinations are still possible when you specifically build for it

[upbeat sapphire]

And they still can be, if they just bring enough arrows

[glacial sphinx]

Yeah I think rangers are still pretty insane even now once decently geared and people are somehow underrating them.

[brittle jasper]

at least if ranger or wizard are op they are still fighting you in a normal way that's fun (if not a bit frustrating) to fight, however rouge focuses on the worst tactics in a fight those that make you feel cheated out of a fight rather than outplayed

[upbeat sapphire]

They kinda have to. They're suuuuper squishy. Not too mention their starting weapon is crap. They need gear to deal with melee fights

And even with gear, they can still be 1-2 shot by other geared ppl.

[brittle jasper]

id rather die to a barb running at 200% movement speed able to 1 shot me than a rouge who just ratted me to death

[latent tundra]

rogued get pretty crazy with gear

[glacial sphinx]

Think rogue starting weapon being crap is a good choice though, its super annoying if a rogue could be a stealthed threat in complete starter gear, basically risking nothing while able to jump people

[hazy tulip]

as a fighter there is no outplay potential against a wizards. Or teach me the ways

[brittle jasper]

give me a fight i CANNOT win vs someone who fights honest and i will enjoy losing

[upbeat sapphire]

I disagree. You can play intelligently around rogue tactics, barbs with "200% movespeed" have no counter

[tulip hill]

my memory is hazy, they started with a castillon and rondel this playtest, right? (might just have been a white one I equipped)

[upbeat sapphire]

Correct. Both having 14 dmg, grey quality. For reference on how bad they are, you can buy a grey one with 19 dmg from vendor for cheap.

[brittle jasper]

you bait the fireball out and use your bow to punish him for standing still to cast

[tulip hill]

with rupture and poison weapon I think they are fine with crappy starting weapons

[glacial sphinx]

use a ranged secondary like a crossbow or longbow and just onetap his face

[upbeat sapphire]

Don't have to stand still to cast fireball btw. You may be thinking of magic missiles. If so, that's a solid tact imo

[gloomy cradle]

@round lagoon #1026916693806686208

[round lagoon]

Oh dang. Sweet. I thought I had done this before and seen those in here. Than you!

[brittle jasper]

yeah i was thinking once hes out of fireball abuse his predictable pattern of only having 2 spells to punish magic missile

[hazy tulip]

Nah, fighter wont win in a ranged fight vs wizard. just to be clear im talking high end gear. Low end wizards you can just run at because they cast their spells so slowly.

[upbeat sapphire]

ahhh, gotcha. mb

[brittle jasper]

idk man in a 1 vs 1 fighter can kinda just lame the wizard out at range by forceing him to run out of spells and if the range is too close to force a miss from the wizards projectiles rush him down

[upbeat sapphire]

Quite true. As is traditional, magic is strong vs slow, bulky plate wearers, while they're quite good vs physical dmg. Rock, paper, scissors

[latent tundra]

I think I ran into 2 wizzes the entire playtest, non hr

[peak rock]

Bring back blue dungeon but have some red portals as well as the gates that open up so camping won't be the only route down, have the regular "yellow" dungeon as a seperate "mode" or selection. Really enjoyed how dark and hard the blue dungeon was but hated how empty it always was. Fun stuff overall can't wait for Warlock and Druid

[brittle jasper]

honestly outside of rouge just jumping everywhere the outside map was very fun

[tulip hill]

a well prepared wizard has the option to just haste ignite invis up to the fighter and London him
I've seen full plate fighters drop in 2 or 3 stabs

[hazy tulip]

Im sure the fighter can pump out 1 dmg on the wizard for everey 3 he does. And the wizard can just run away at any time

[brittle jasper]

i did miss having easy access to dungeon on the first day or two but i was still enjoying it

[upbeat sapphire]

I hope they stick to their plan of making Ruins the first, but easier map, with more players. Then when ppl go down, we get regular dungeon with 18 players. Then the option to escape vs hell

Edit: But also keep separate modes, so you're not forced to play 30 min matches at all times. Make one mode like you described, a secondary for dungeon>hell only

[brittle jasper]

if the wizard is trying to run you need to punish the retreat with throwing weapons if you have em but i can't think of a good way around invis tbh a wizard with invis sounds like a tough fight no matter what class is fighting him

[hazy tulip]

Im afraid that maps will determine the power of differnet classes. Like they realized coloseum map was broken for rangers so they changed it, and ruins are broken for rogues with double jump, well double jump is just broken, period.

[latent tundra]

crossbow feels p good against wiz

[glacial sphinx]

I kind of feel that having two big maps back to back doesn't work that well, since you either get no loot in the first map or fill up before you reach the second one

[upbeat sapphire]

Crossbow is broken, and feels good vs everyone 😛

Edit: Oh, did you mean regular crossbow or hand crossbow? I meant hand

[glacial sphinx]

I think i'd rather have them add a shorter level with a boss after ruins that you can reach with stairs, and have the stairs open a bit earlier

[brittle jasper]

well the loot on the second map is better so even if your full on the first map you can drop some

[hazy tulip]

True, i think i was sleeping on the crossbow

[latent tundra]

@upbeat sapphire both

[upbeat sapphire]

kk

[brittle jasper]

windlass crossbow is a very sad weapon i hope it gets something to compete with the 2 better crossbows

[peak rock]

Yea I enjoyed both iterations for different reasons, just feel they took the blue dungeon out too fast especially with the amount of newer players not being used to the game so reacting to their judgement too quickly. For example they might've not mind the new blue dungeon if the regular one was still up at the time.

[brittle jasper]

its like the survival bow of crossbows just the worst of the 3 by a mile

[upbeat sapphire]

I had a windlass crossbow with 73 dmg, +2 add dmg, +1 true phys dmg and 2% armor pen or something. That stuff hurts in the head

[latent tundra]

ya its just the reload is rough

[brittle jasper]

its good in a sneak attack but theres no good way to reload mid battle and if you miss then thats your one use gone

[upbeat sapphire]

I think there were less newer players than ever, because of torrenting. But I get your point.

@latent tundra ; Indeed

[brittle jasper]

it feels more like an active ability than a weapon tbh

[glacial sphinx]

Windlass is just a secondary that gives you one attempt per fight at an instant kill

[latent tundra]

best thing about crossbow is you can just whip it out and insta fire with no draw

[brittle jasper]

its just clerics judgement as a weapon

[latent oriole]

Clarity pots should not be sold, cleric w pots is so hard to play against in 3v3

[abstract swallow]

I still miss VictoryLass. Fighter's weapon proficiency is so sad.

[hazy tulip]

wdym what was victorylass

[latent tundra]

cleric gets spells back so easy now

[brittle jasper]

i remember my mate playing cleric you rest for a bit and you just get all your spells back like they on god gave everyone meditate for free

[latent tundra]

I played with a cleric most of the test and they would just dump everything onto me and get them all back after every fight

[abstract swallow]

Victory Strike Windlass.
It was Fighter's best opener in the Wizard/Ranger metas.

[brittle jasper]

they took a class balanced around having limited use spells and just gave him the easiest spell regen in the world

mind you a good cleric would make sure to be packing one or two campfires before but now even low gear runs have near unlimited spell uses

[latent tundra]

also insane when you go to hell to get all heals back

[brittle jasper]

0 fear of using them too early you get to see cleric going all out every fight and hes kinda nutty because of it

[abstract swallow]

Resting spell recovery is in a pretty good spot right now with how low spell counts are and with spell capacity and spell/rest efficiency not really being implemented yet.

[brittle jasper]

i think that normal rest should not recover spells and that should be something exclusive to campfire rest

[abstract swallow]

Maybe when we get Utility Effectiveness, and it's probably best how it is now as a 3x spell recovery rate.

[latent tundra]

the thing is with campfires for spell recovery is, its better to just instantly rest rather than put it down as a cleric

[abstract swallow]

It's weird, but taking it away would kinda miff Ranger/Rogue's utility item niche.

[quick blade]

Wizard was so weak in playtest 5 it was pretty much unplayable.

[gaunt cargo]

Seemed OK once you had a spellbook and some gear.

[pale plinth]

It's disrespectful that people down voted my suggestion.

[quick blade]

Still much worse than any other class with similar gear. Oh you want to kill mobs well now your out of spells and have to sit and wait 40 seconds. O wow a naked rogue is charging you, better hope you can hit him with 3 4 second cast fireballs and it still not be enough to kill him. Wizard was useless without top tier gear in playtest 5. Why it is probably the least played by far, I went close to 2 days without seeing one in game.

Wizard has been nerfed on an almost daily basis since end of playtest 3. It was just not worth playing in playtest 5. Shame because the wizard can be allot of fun and very useful in a group especially a group with newbies. The ability to ignite and invis newbies is huge. Wizard my favorite and I could not be bothered to play it in playtest 5. It was just not worth it. Literally everything else was always a better choice for every single situation. Wizard it built like a glass cannon with basically 0 armor and hp. In playtest 5 it was just glass.

[pallid vapor]

Getting spells back on rest is fine but it’s probably a bit too fast right now. I played cleric and yeah I could just dump load every fight into teammates then as soon as fights done plop down and get my buffs/small heals back in like a minute

[quick blade]

Having 10 spells is great as a wizard but not if it takes 10 spells to kill someone. every other class 2-3 shots each other and wizard only class that needed to like 5-10 shot anything else that was naked.

[pallid vapor]

Now that’s some crazy exaggeration. 4 seconds for fireball? Do you have negative knowledge somehow? Geared wizard is by far one of the scariest things when in the right hands. It’s just hard to play well

[pallid vapor]

I could literally kill anything but barb/fighter in 2 zaps when fully geared. 3 for fighter 4 for barb when geared

[weak vine]

Wizard this playtest with full gear was strong af his base kit was just weak which is the case for most people so stop complaining

[quick blade]

Yes when fully geared. What other class needs to be fully geared to be considered playable. How do you get fully geared if you need gear to even play. Wizard was in a very bad place for playtest 5.

[weak vine]

Because gaining gear this playtest was easy af??? I’m sure they will balance him out lol

You could get a good set in like under an hour this playtest

[quick blade]

Fighter fully geared 1 shots everything, barb fully geared 1 shots everything, ranger fully geared one shots anything but fighter barb, rogue fully geared 1 shots everything, cleric geared can almost 1 shot everything with judgment. Wizard fully geared can 2 shot some things. Wizard was by far the worst. Unplayable without high end gear sets and even with level 15 it's worthless with starting gear. It just was the worst class in playtest 5.

[weak vine]

Ok? Someone’s gotta be the worse I don’t see the argument

[abstract swallow]

Wizard gear has the trouble of not caring about rarity, but doubles down in damage stacking and other goofy gear problems.

[weak vine]

And the point of wizard is to keep ur distance not to be able to one shot everyone lmao

[quick blade]

Worse than bard and that's saying something. Bard is incomplete and played best solo! At least bard was fun wizard was not fun because it to so much work to make it viable.

[weak vine]

Wizard was easily 100x better than bard ur dumb af if u actually believe bard was better

[quick blade]

Wizard does almost no damage from a distance, most spells are very close range and the ones with longer ranger move so slow you just avoid all of them

[weak vine]

Dude I don’t mean 50m away I just mean distance from a melee weapon

[void ginkgo]

thats clearly why we never saw wizards this playtest and saw plenty of bards even after the immediate realization that they were very much worse

[weak vine]

I saw plenty of wizards idk what u guys are on I saw a ton of bards day 1 and after that not a single one

Sorry ur favorite class isn’t op

[quick blade]

also invis was broken and would freeze you in place for a second after casting. and being able to hit someone from 10 feet away means nothing since you slow down so much while casting they just catch you. It's not like anything but high tier wizard can do enough damage with a single spell to even scratch any other class/

[brittle jasper]

"wizard dose almost no damage" can kill entire groups with one cast of magic missiles

[gaunt cargo]

I'm sure part of their balance concept for wizard revolves around the fact that they also offer insane group utility.

[quick blade]

No magic missiles got nerfed hard in playtest 5. also shoots so slow you can walk right through the damage and 1 shot the wizard, unless you are running top tier gear but what other class requires best in slot to be viable.

[brittle jasper]

even post nerf its not something someone at equal gear to the wizard can just ignore and facetank at any reasonable distance

[quick blade]

Wizard was almost useless in playtest 5. Basically just streamers playing it. you were better off with any other class in every situation.

How often did you die to wizards, I don't remember a single death to a wizard for the entirety of playtest 5.

Only wizard to kill me was the skelly mage!

With those lob shot fireballs missing someone else and landing on my head like an arty shell.

[brittle jasper]

i don't recall seeing more than 2 wizards in the whole PT but i think thats more down to 80%+ of the lobbys being just rouge

[round cave]

Wizards are weak in the hands of the average player but strong in the hands of a good player

[brittle jasper]

like i think i saw 1 barb the whole time

[quick blade]

rogue had to be 50-60% it went down slightly in the last day or two but the first two days were like 80% rogue.

[brittle jasper]

it was all rouge all 4 of the first days (i diden't play the last day)

[round cave]

Maybe if you only play ruins

[brittle jasper]

gobblin caves was the only map where i even saw non rouge classes

[quick blade]

Even castle was at least half rogues.

[round cave]

Castle was normal team comps. They should delete rogues though, maybe just don't let them use any weapons

[brittle jasper]

on god rouge meta is the worst i hope he gets nerfed so hard he will never be meta again

[round cave]

If I said how I feel about rogues I would get banned, but it ends with the letter R

[quick blade]

Rogue that can 1 shot you from 50 feet away is not ok. Rogue needs it's mobility cut in half if double jump and crossbow going to stay.

[brittle jasper]

im fine with him being the mobility class if he pays for the mobility by just not having any good damage options

[quick blade]

reduce it's speed to barb speed and it would be closer to balanced

[brittle jasper]

not that any of the classes are in a good state rouge is just the most visibly busted barbs throwing axes with his new movement damage perk are as problematic as always

[quick blade]

That bard perk was foolish and insulting. Lets buff a feature that needed to be nerfed. Ranger was in a good place for playtest 5. Most fun class was ranger

Ranger played best with 10 arrow stacks. Gave having ranged damage a drawback of inventory space.

rogue had best ranged damage though so might as well give rangers unlimited ammo again.

[mental lance]

Hxbow needs damage like halved

[abstract swallow]

It needs higher reload and movement penalties, the damage is okay-- nothing that flat damage stacking won't crank up.

[quick blade]

Rogue with crossbow could pretty much 1 shot anything. only thing worse was barb with grey axe 1 shoting everything.

[tulip venture]

15 damage on an legendary hand cross bow would make them near worthless for all classes

[latent tundra]

I saw a good variety of classes but definitely a lot of rogues

Being able to apply rupture from a range is nutty even if the damage got lowered

[tulip venture]

thats only if they had the best gear and running both rupture and weakpoint which still wouldnt 1 shot anyone with armor

[quick blade]

nope

[weak vine]

I got hit 4x from a rouge with crossbow and I was like half health lmao

[tulip venture]

do you play wizard? because the current rogue does just shit down their neck

[weak vine]

men?

[quick blade]

I did not play much wizard in playtest 5 it was not worth it. Unplayable compared to everything else even bard.

I played mostly cleric rogue ranger

[tulip venture]

there is no way youre trying to say bard was better than wizard

[quick blade]

It was

You could play the bard without having best in slot gear. Wizard only viable with top tier gear while bard could be played with anything.

You actually have higher dps as bard with survival bow vs low gear wizard. Wiz was that trash.

3x accel bard with a falchion.

Bard was best solo class and played goblin caves on easy mode. Far more fun and viable than Wizard.

[tulip venture]

lets just see when the devs publish the statistics man i think youre gonna see that the bard was least played with the lowest survival rate

[quick blade]

lol every match was 60% rogue with 2-4 bards.

bard played at least 2x wizard.

[dense sand]

Tons of everything except wizards

[tulip venture]

maybe on ruins but that map was almost made for rogues with double jump

[quick blade]

every map it was not until the 4-5 days that we even saw party comps start to come out and honestly that is probably because most people stopped playing. last two days had so many problems people just gave up.

[abstract swallow]

Wizard will only have a majority population if they're over performing in LR or easy to use.
They're neither.

[latent tundra]

I saw mostly fighters rogues clerics and barbs

[abstract swallow]

Fighter is eternally popular because it starts with a shield.
Cleric is the core support of the game, and will be for the foreseeable future, so it'll make up just under a third of most lobbies.
Rogue and Barbs are easy to play and wildly over perform when they have any advantage, so they'll be highpop.

[quick blade]

Unless of course one of the classes is so broken that it makes up 80% of lobby's

12-14 rogue lobbies were common.

[abstract swallow]

Yeah, especially when they separated Ruins into its own map so you couldn't play around stairs anymore.

[mental lance]

Would still be useful

[quick blade]

The issue is the hand crossbow getting all the rogue buffs rupture poison feats ect.

None of those should every have been on it. Dumb choice and they were warned about it since before playtest 4 and it still turned out just like we warned them

[abstract swallow]

Being able to Rupture+WPA is absolutely broken on Handbow, and it's BiS thanks to DJ overshadowing all stealth and anti mobility options they have

[quick blade]

You have a weapon that can 1 shot anything, and can also fly around the map as if you are playing light assault on planetside 2. Really bad move. Everyone knew exactly what was going to happen if the rogue got a ranged weapon,

[abstract swallow]

It's really shocking just how much damage they can do with it. Projectile resistance aside, they can two-tap a 95% PDR Fighter.

[quick blade]

Not shocking at all that's how the rogue abilities work. Just dumb to force that on the testers.

[ionic anchor]

[Add a small in-game Town Square themed in the Dark and Darker style. For: As an alternative to the group sitting at tavern table before launching match. Essentially a pre-game lobby for region players used for re-gearing, banking, merchants(gear stalls / shops / blacksmith), trade hub. Finding a group, gear / account show-off (social aspect), Leaderboard trophy items. Current version is fine as its quirky and efficient, but could be more immersive. Suggestion is similar to The Cycle which has a basic lobby. idk just an idea.]

i only dislike that i would potentially have to run around to each vendor to do all of my buying/selling after each round which would become tedious in the long run.

[lone crescent]

They need to remove hand crossbow for rouges, the class is strong enough without

This or make a perk to use crossbow

[abstract swallow]

Perk proficiency is a bad design crutch, Id like it if they avoided it or just the perk system altogether in the future.

[lone crescent]

Bard heal and speed boost are really strong, the other 2 are kinda useless but they will add more

Duration of the song buff can be upgraded with better rarity lutes

[abstract swallow]

Perk-and-Skill basically hard locks you into mutually exclusive choices that are hemmed into the same very underwhelming scope.
There's no room for flavor, PvE, or passive/proficiency without it being attached to something super unbalanced or a free mechanical upgrade.

[quick blade]

Perk crossbow would solve nothing

[ionic anchor]

haha, rogues not having range while wizards bards and fighters do, and barbs having axe perk making their franchesca's OP is why they were given SOMEthing to balance it in the first place.

[abstract swallow]

Buy some throwing knives, brokeboy.

[lone crescent]

Throwing knives are not ranged? Lol

[quick blade]

Wizard did not have range wizard is a close range class

[abstract swallow]

Master the Korean tech of IgniteXBow, Padawan.

[quick blade]

rogue had throwing knives already.

[ionic anchor]

Throwing knives are like 1/4 the effectiveness of any other ranged weapon, you only get 3 and they have terrible range/bullet speed.

[quick blade]

Yes thats called balance

[ionic anchor]

wizard literally had/has access to crossbows.

[lone crescent]

You only get 3 even with franciscas

Throwing knives procs poison and rupture and can potentially oneshot a wizard

[abstract swallow]

You can kill most classes in a single stack if you land Rupture with it, or finish them when they approach with a hide-ambush headshot.

[lone crescent]

Not every class needs ranged weapons and giving a crossbow to the fastest class is a dumb idea for me

[ionic anchor]

they do not proc poison. they removed that. they can proc rupture but you do actually like what 13 plus 20dmg over 5 seconds?

[mental lance]

It just needs massively nerfed damage so it only does little trickles of damage

[ionic anchor]

I'll admit giving them double jump and a crossbow was way too much, being able to perch on an unreachable spot and just poke people is stupid, but the double jump is the issue not the crossbow.

[lone crescent]

Yes 20dmg + magical damage and it goes against magic dmg reduction

[abstract swallow]

DJ makes crossbow worse since it makes WPA+Rupture basically default.

[lone crescent]

Then you use your speed to poke, keep distance, wait cooldown and do again

[quick blade]

it was not 20 damage it was one shoting everything

[ionic anchor]

Franchesca axes do literally 35 base damage... and stack with increased strength, if you think throwing knives are enough you're missing something even with rupture throwing knife it barely does the same as a franchesca axe...

[quick blade]

all playtest rogue one shot everything with crossbow. Impossible to catch because it moves 2x faster then the other classes, could fly, and one shot from distance.

[lone crescent]

Rogue is fast, barbarian is slow, rogue can keep distance and spam knives

But no let's give him a crossbow too, a crossbow to the fastest class

[ionic anchor]

barbarian is not slow...

[lone crescent]

Barbarian is literally the slowest class in the game

[ionic anchor]

if u run around with your axe out you're slow sure, but his armor is light.

[quick blade]

No fighter and cleric get slow in armor.

[ionic anchor]

and he gets a speed boost when he shouts.

a barb with a shout and a frenchesca is like 50 dmg, weaker classes have roughly 80... you're doing more than 1/2 their hp with a 1 franchesca axe and killing them with 2.

[lone crescent]

Ok but he can't use his weapon

Rogie goes invisible and oneshots every class but no he needs range too right?

[ionic anchor]

i don't 1 shot every class. ambush and weak point CAN hurt a lot. but it is SUPER rare i actually can land a weak point ambush on someone AND 1 shot them.

[lone crescent]

Ranger gets punished a lot for charging a shot in the wrong moment, wizard get punished by casting, but rogues is the fastest class and can shoot while running

[ionic anchor]

ranger can also shoot while running, wizard can intro with invis speed boost and surprise enemies more than a rogue can.

Rogue gets 10 steps. Wizard gets 5 seconds and 5 casts.

[lone crescent]

Yes but ranger gets a huge slowdown while charging and wizard while casting

The fastest class in the game doesn't need ranged weapon

[ionic anchor]

Ranger is literally faster than a rogue.

[lone crescent]

Ranger can't move fast while attacking

Are you trolling me?

[ionic anchor]

no but you dont need to move fast if u can keep distance and if rogue gets close u just use shotgun or triple shot. people do it all the time. and if you aren't shit you just swap to spear and 1 tap the rogue.

[lone crescent]

And if you miss you are dead

[quick blade]

Invis froze you in place after casting

[lone crescent]

And you have no way to keep the distance while attacking, everyone can rush through and reach you

But rogue can keep the distance forever

[quick blade]

Infinite kite with highest dps and highest alpha strike. All intentional as well.

[lone crescent]

The most strongest class atm without considering crossbow, if you add crossbow even more overpowered

[ionic anchor]

If you are referring to standing on ruins walls, then I think that needs to be patched, but if we are talking about crypts, no you can definitely catch a rogue. most the time they dont even have a hand crossbow because you cannot buy them from the merchants. most rogues don't bother. they are extremely hard to get from trade and pretty low drop rate in dungeons.

[abstract swallow]

Fix DJ, give other classes mobility (and ideally general clambering/ledge grabs), cut Rupture from being applied with ranged attacks, and nerf hand xbow with slower reload and animation-slowdown.
That ought to solve the problem, but it's a lot of effort to immediately balance something that could just be temporarily toggled off until the game is more complete.

[lone crescent]

I'm referring to every map, you can't balance things based on how rare they are to find, barbarian have the rarest loot and was shiet last playtest

Rogue can hit you like 5 times before you even reach him and trigger rupture 2 times

[ionic anchor]

barbs were STILL 1 tapping people just like they have every playtest. Hand crossbows were ok they are almost necessary for Bards, but its not as if Rangers can't use them as well, and technically fighters can also, this only leaves barbs wizards and clerics without hand crossbows and Barbs are have been OP every playtest because strength stat characters get expontential HP and Dmg when they stack their stat. where Agi just makes you faster and attack a little faster.

[quick blade]

It's ok most of the time they are not running the completely broken why play anything else build.

[pallid vapor]

Really the only problem I had was double jump on ruins map. In crypt I just ran through rogues, crossbow or not. It’s super easy to block/dodge ranged attavks in this game. Literally just insta turn 90 degrees right before they shoot and they’ll miss every shot

That being said, I think the hand bow should reload a bit slower and absolutely not apply poison/bleed lol

[lone crescent]

In this playtest was impossibile for a barbarian to kill a decent rouge, all 2h weapons was trash so no oneshot

[pallid vapor]

Quarterstaff would like to know your location

[lone crescent]

How do you know when they shoot?

Quarterstaff doesn't oneshot tho

[pallid vapor]

When they are looking at you just jerk 90 degrees quickly while approaching and they’ll miss. It’s really not hard

[lone crescent]

What if they delay the shot? It's not like they act as mobs

[pallid vapor]

It 2 shots and leaves rogues no opening in melee. That’s what I ran on barb and it was disgusting. Was still hitting 110 with it full geared on dummy

[ionic anchor]

So you are mad because you couldnt get close enough to kill rogues? do you understand that every rogue who has every stepped up to 1v1 a bard has been 1 shot by a barb? what are they suppose to do? try to assassinate you and hope your stupid high MR and HP doesn't reduce the damage low enough before you can land 1 hit on them?

[pallid vapor]

If they don’t shoot the first time you juke, walk and then and do it again. It’s a game of cat and mouse. Of course he’s going to still hit sometimes. But ur also going to dodge sometimes

[lone crescent]

I'm not even mad, I'm just saying that rogue is the hard counter for barbarian right now, you can't do anything in melee range, that's a fact

[ionic anchor]

Rogue was unanimously the Weakest class pt4*. and everyone still hated them, so excuse me if the one time they feel a little more on par with the stronger classes i feel the need to stick up for them.

[lone crescent]

Yes but it's not "super easy"

[ionic anchor]

games hard, even pve is hard, pvp is harder, people get better and the bad players havent encountered or figured out how to win unfavorable duels. im sure the 1 or 2 rogues that kept their distance from you would have absolutely died to you if they had to play close combat.

[lone crescent]

A balance game is when there is fair duel and both players have good chance of winning, 50/50 it's impossible, but the closest it gets the better and if you think this way rogue is unbalanced

[ionic anchor]

im telling you, double jump is more of a problem than the crossbow.

you're not 100% wrong, but i think the crossbow is not as strong as you think it is...

[lone crescent]

You can rush mid swing vs 2h weapons and hit and run, while vs 1h you hit then double jump away and can't be hit by the enemy

Double jump is the most op thing but crossbow too is wrong for me

2h weapons on barb need a little bit of a speed boost cause right now they can be kited forever by every class

Every barb played 1h this playtest caus 2h was trash in pvp

[ionic anchor]

if they just let rogue use survival bow took away double jump and removed hand crossbows, i think that would have been just as good. its the fact that they have to rely on shitty 13-17 dmg throwing knives for any range at all that is absolutely a bad thing. even the devs thought so.

[quick blade]

Rogue completely broken its why so many in every match. Infinite kite highest dps highest alpha strike. Only class worth playing. Objectively better than every other class in every situation.

If rogues play like this long term people will just not buy the game.

[ionic anchor]

you already said that. double jump is an issue.

[quick blade]

Why bother when one class is playing on easy mode.

[latent tundra]

I one shot a rogue with a throwing axe achilles strike

[lone crescent]

That would be better too, slow reload and slow movement speed, but it got the rupture proc issue too wich will make rogue strong as a ranger from distance

[ionic anchor]

i deliberately didnt play with double jump as a rogue main cause even i felt like it was broken.

[quick blade]

Every other playtest there have been broken skills or abilities that usually get patched out, They made and entire class broken for pt5. Worst yet.

[hard perch]

What’s better?
A) Armor = stackable % damage reduction
B) Armor = locational % damage reduction
C) Armor = stackable flat damage reduction
D) Armor = locational flat damage reduction

[ionic anchor]

yes but survival bows have the lowest ranged damage, meaning that a long bow would end up still out dps the rogue damage, in-fact most rangers wont even use a survival bows because of how low their dps is, if rogues got to use them that would at least make them viable to some class again.

[lone crescent]

They need to make rupture working only for melee or only for daggers to make it balanced

Bard too use survival bow

[ionic anchor]

Bard can but they use crossbows cause it has higher dps.

[abstract swallow]

Flat damage reduction doesn't really work in this system unless you make it apply before % reduction.

[latent tundra]

Cleric damage reduction applies after % reduction right?

[quick blade]

The issue is giving the rogue any ranged damage

[lone crescent]

Bard ranged things are balanced cause he is not very strong in combat compared fo rogue, but rogue still remains overpowered if you remove any ranged, that's my whole point

[latent tundra]

From the -3 damage perk

[quick blade]

Might as well remove ranger and give all the classes ranged damage.

[lone crescent]

Or you nerf rogue melee dps or you remove ranged weapons, can't do both

[ionic anchor]

im not sure how i feel about rupture not working on ranged weapons, but i think thats kind of a risk/reward situation, its a lot harder to hit with range so if u miss with rupture it goes on cd and you can't use it again for 20 seconds. it takes a long time to actually use and it doesnt do as much damage as you're thinking, plus barbs get damage reduction from rupture because of the MR they have.

[quick blade]

Or remove rupture and weakpoint, rogue would play much better without them.

[latent tundra]

Could also make the hand crossbows rarer

[lone crescent]

I'm just saying that rogue is op both in melee and ranged right now, or you make both weaker or you remove one of the two to make it balanced

[quick blade]

How about you rogues get to keep your shitty crossbow but lose rupture and weakpoint. That seems fair right having a means of ranged damage is what important so should be perfect.

but the ranged weapon is not what you want it's a way to break the game in your favor.

[ionic anchor]

firstly, Ranger has tons of viable ranged stuff, uses spear, traps has amazing ranged bow abilities, and can heal tons of health with rations. he is not being put out by giving other classes sub-par ranged capability. secondly, rogues at the moment have like every so slightly a possibility of getting a hand crossbow and range, and suddenly THAT is what is OP but they can use a rapier and double jump and cancel out their movespeed on strike and that is not what people are talking about?

I don't think its unfair to just say, take away rogue double jump, it gives too many unfair advantages.

everything else after that is just stupid to complain about imho. you're trying to take away the whole rogue kit that already is kinda meh, because they got a tool to bring balance closer to 50/50?

[quick blade]

1 shot kill crossbow is not a sub par ranged weapon. it's was the best ranged weapon in playtest 5 doing more damage than most windlass. while literally flying impossible to attack.

[ionic anchor]

I'll need proof of seeing a 1shot crossbow from the rogue. i think your'e making shit up and exagerating for no reason.

[quick blade]

But that is fair and balanced according to you. Right? It's just a subpar ranged weapon.

[quick blade]

go to youtube there are 100's of examples.

[ionic anchor]

fine, let me go eat my words.

[abstract swallow]

Green hand crossbow can oneshot easily, I've done it multiple times with WPA+Ambush headshots.

[quick blade]

You 1 shot rogues and wizards with chest shot, literally everything else with headshot.

Not broken at all.

[lone crescent]

A green hand crossbow headshot hits for 40 + 20 rupture damage, this without any modifiers

You can easily reach 100+ damage with a green crossbow

[ionic anchor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcRLDY0zTHA this is the most realistic and "OP" example you're going to see. and the fighting really starts around 5ish minutes. what's mostly carrying this dude is Double jump, without it he was caught like 5+ times. i am at 8 Min i'll let you know if anything happens to change my mind.

he got another 2 kills at the end with it, looks like the fighter was (obviously) already low, and the rogue took 1 shot to the head and didnt die. but was literally standing still and could have also had a hand crossbow but didnt? they just looked like a kinda bad team.

[quick blade]

conveniently ignores the 100's of videos with rogues whipe'ing near entire lobbies with hand crossbow to find one where they don't. Lose all credibility.

[lone crescent]

If you pause it seems the rouge got hit in the hand

[ionic anchor]

link me a video? this was the first one i could find had Rogue OP hand crossbow in the title...

[quick blade]

Find it yourself your the one who is wrong.

14 rogue lobbies but not because they are broken right?

[abstract swallow]

I've wiped entire Crypts lobbies with just basic Rupture/flat damage gear, a green hand crossbow, and a +2 WIL +1 STR neck.
It really is that easy, the only teams I couldn't just roll or wear down were organized teams with Clerics supporting them, since Prot+Heal was enough to shake off my solo damage.

[ionic anchor]

this is the FIRST video i have seen about this showing off how OP rogue hand crossbow is, and all i saw was a dude clearly had in a corner double jumped like crazy and narrowly escaping death several times.

[quick blade]

Just a level 15 rogue with a white crossbow was nearly invincible. Have to get killed by another rogue crossbow

You are literally impossible to catch. And can just kite them until they die

[hazy patio]

I think that is called being good

[ionic anchor]

idk. hand crossbows were never my idea of a solution, but i invited the idea cause it sounded cool, however double jump is just busted.

[trim maple]

didnt rogues still die if you breathed on them tho

[lone crescent]

Hand crossbow is cool, just remove it from rogue and it's fine, i mean is worst then a bow but faster and bard can use some more dmg things

[ionic anchor]

yes, which is why they are not as OP as these rogue haters make it sound. but you know, Wah they have range now so i can't 1 tap them so OP. idk i don't think double jump was a good idea but range was definitely a good idea.

[lone crescent]

Is the whole kit of the rogue that is already strong enough to require more damage output

[trim maple]

honestly double jump should give an armor rating penalty to make it more risky to use

aside from that its mostly just broken on ruins lol

[lone crescent]

Weakpoint + Rupture for example can kill a full geared fighter in high roller with 3 dagger hits, does a class with so much burst damage needs a crossbow?

[lone crescent]

Or maybe make a perk for jump height to not change direction mid air and invisible ceiling to stop extreme parkour

[trim maple]

Honestly I feel like the hand crossbow fits the playstyle of rogue. It might make him a bit overtuned but its an alpha, of course things are gonna feel weird at first

[ionic anchor]

if you are running weakpoint AND rupture, you are basically a kamikaze all in death grenade. most of the time you'll be seen and die before you can put out your damage.with daggers. if you mean to say with a hand crossbow, i suppose if you wait between shots, but the reload speed should be enough time to react and heal and back off, no fighter at full hp is getting 1 shot by a rogue with a hand crossbow.

[hazy patio]

Shields exist too (Idk if im saying something too dumb)

[lone crescent]

Ambush exist too you make it look to easy to kill a rogue in melee
If you have 2h weapons you basically miss a hit and get almost oneshotted by a rogue if you have 1h it's difficult for him but if he lands his hit you are dead

Rogue is a glass cannon

[ionic anchor]

so now ambush weakpoint and rupture...

[lone crescent]

Ambush as strategy not as perk

[ionic anchor]

you do realize you need to go invis to proc ambush right? so then you aren't running weakpoint and rupture, its 1 or the other...

[ionic anchor]

by that logic, anybody can ambush anybody. You don't need to play a rogue to ambush a player.

[abstract swallow]

Ambush+WPA+Rupture is easy to pull off with Invis pots and DJ, at least in low Roller
Just stand on a disabled torch scone and buff->sip when you hear doors
I preferred Hide because it was just easier to finish people with it's ambush proc, especially in an extended duel where I got WPA back

[quick blade]

Looking for anything to prove it's not op.

[rigid prawn]

Remove rupture on projectiles, fixes handcrossbow and throwing knife cheese

[lone crescent]

Yes but rogue are fast and have huge burst damage, that's why they fit better for the playstyle

A barb shouting from the dark doesn't ambush pretty well

[ionic anchor]

no, im just basing the comments off my experience of what is being suggested as OP, is hardly OP in practice as you make it out to be.

[abstract swallow]

That last suggestion of no fall damage, but an impact animation for falling, is very good
Go thumbs up that thing

[ionic anchor]

you don't have to shout if you're ambushing.

[lone crescent]

What if i see like i need a crossbow on barbarian cause I'm slow and i need reach?

Everyone will say that I'm strong enough in melee and I don't ranged weapons

Why for rogue should be different?

[quick blade]

Barb slowly lumbers up to someone and one shots then with a head shot=op

Rogue fly's around the map 1 shoting everyone while impossible to fight back against= not op.

[ionic anchor]

I have admitted several times now, double jump is OP. the ranged weapon is not.

[rigid prawn]

This 1000 times. Reverting changes entirely because you might not see the counter in the moment is smooth brained. Being a stealthy, agile glass cannon is the rogues roll. He needs to be tuned down but there are direct counters to rogue even in ruins that make it hard to do much, people are just unaware of them.

[quick blade]

Both are broken not op. They are both game breaking and need to be removed completely.

[lone crescent]

I mean for me the low risk high reward gameplay of rogue's crossbow doesn't make sens and doesn't fit to the class

[ionic anchor]

if barbs throwing axes didnt do so much damage i would agree. but since you can pretty much kill anything with 3 axes, i don't. the problem is strength increases ranged damage, while agility does not.

[random python]

what you guys think of allowing the cleric to use some of the swords ? not all of them obviously. may be only the primary handed and not the two handed ones. or may be a off hand spell casting like the orb for the wizard

[rigid prawn]

dodge the axe its not an arrow lol

[lone crescent]

The axe are for close range mostly cause the are slo af and easy to dodge from far away

[quick blade]

There is no balancing rogue with double jump or hand crossbow.

Barb throws 3 slow moving close range axes to kill.

Rogue shoots a crossbow once. totally balanced.

[rigid prawn]

Rogue 1 shotting is a problem with the damage balancing not the weapon if the falchion was a 1 shot you wouldnt ask for it to be removed

[ionic anchor]

so are throwing knives, they have the same travel and drop range.

[lone crescent]

I mean barb does oneshot with axe with achilles strike, but hitting with an axe is difficult while hitting with a crossbow is easier and stronger

[quick blade]

Even if the damage was scaled back the rogue can kite you with 0 risk. impossible to catch so you nerf damage and it takes 2 shots or even 3 shots to kill. Still=free kills with 0 skill required since you attack from range and are never in danger can run away at any time.

The rogue is playing light assault trouper from planetside while everyone else is playing darksouls .

[lone crescent]

Yes, you can say like make some buff to throwing knives and that can be okay.

They can't be strong as franciscas anyway cause they need to compensate for rogue movement speed

[rigid prawn]

Currently yeah, but he was in a WAY better spot then playtest 4, reverting the changes means rogue is useless. Scaling him back and changing the maps are a better approach, the rogue gameplay loop is way to fun to revert completely

Like is said, remove rupture on projectiles solves that problem entirely

[lone crescent]

They can even make an innate damage reduction for crossbow to the rogue to keep it a poke weapon and not main damage, but yes rupture on bolts need to be removed

Then like faster throwing knives and done

[ionic anchor]

my idea was just give them survival bow access, or buff the amount of throwing knives that can stack and give skills to throwing knives specifically. but we have hand crossbows now, and while i may not agree with the solution, i do think it can be worked with. however;

being able to scale walls and be in unreachable places, and jump over enemies and change the direction you are jumping mid air, and removing the move speed from swinging while double jumping... All that is too much.

[quick blade]

mpossible to balance.

Rogue was just fine with throwing knives the issue you and every other rogue has is that none of you have the skill to land a rupture weak point throwing knife. And want a broken class.

Rogue was already balanced. In pt4 rogue just needed to start with a 15 damage rapier and it would have been perfect. It scaled the same as everything with gear. Instead we got this insulting garbage because u all a bunch of whiny little babies.
Rogue was great in playtest 4. If you ran into a stealth'd rogue or one got your back you were dead before you could even react.

[quick blade]

Exactly remove rupture weakpoint poison from crossbow. Remove half the rogue class from 1 weapon so that it can keep it.

If you have to remove half the class to permit the use of 1 weapon it is not the class that is broken it's the weapon

Crossbow needs to be removed. Or they will break the rogue class attempting to balance it.

They will have to destroy everything good about rogue in order to allow it to use the cheese crossbow.

[rigid prawn]

Cool it with the aggression dude, your making a lot of assumptions. My preferred rogue build uses the flip and hide as the actives.

Playtest 4 rogue was the weakest class overall by far. This playtest they were 1 of the broken classes, but all the classes had some bullshit unless you want to ignore 98% PDR fighters and Achilles heel 100 - 0 barb Franciscas.

The rogue is more than just weakpoint and rupture. If thats all you did on rogue then your just a filthy naked dps racer, lowest of the low.

[lone crescent]

The problem is that double jump will never be balanced and the fact that rogue can reach places unreachable for others makes him broken

[rigid prawn]

Bows are your friend

[signal rain]

Rogue is fine if you can’t beat him that’s a skill issue. I play ranger never found rogues to be op just keep multi shot in my back pocket for them. Some classes are better against others that’s just the way it is

[quick blade]

Why rogue was perfectly fine to begin with all it needed was a 15 damage rapier to start with. And the low end play would have been fixed. But instead we got a flying 1 shot kill completely broken class. More broken than anything has ever been. Including when wizards could ignite their own spells.

[lone crescent]

If you don't have a bow you accept your death?

[quick blade]

So we should give barb access to the windlass.

[rigid prawn]

No you reposition. Force the rogue to fight on your level or disengage. Not every player encounter needs to end with someone getting looted

[abstract swallow]

Okay, but only if he just throws it.

[rigid prawn]

Or just accept that Barbs are weak to Rogues like rogues are weak to rangers? your have throwing axes and the biggest health pool in the game

[quick blade]

Force them how? they out range you and move faster than you. How exactly can you force them to do anything.

[lone crescent]

Yes but every fight should closest as possible to 50/50, i almost died to the zone to avoid fighting a rogue camping on a rock

[quick blade]

Rogue is not weak to ranger, it does more damage than the ranger with crossbow. That's the issue why play ranger when rogue does more damage and moves faster.

[rigid prawn]

By repositioning throgh a door that breaks his line of sight or something? i dont know its a call it in the moment type thing 100s of factors lol

[signal rain]

No they should not some classes are supposed to be better then others

[ionic anchor]

lmao

[lone crescent]

Yes that's the opposite of fun, you see a rogue and just go afk cause you can't win, nice game

[rigid prawn]

Your laser focused on the crossbows 1 shot potential like its cemented that as long as its in the game it will be possible to do so. Have some faith in ironmace lolk

[lone crescent]

Why should he push you through the door?

[abstract swallow]

Ideally you don't unless you catch them/their party at a disadvantage. Rogue's key strength is being able to pick his battles and disengage.
Barbie's options are limited, since his zone of control is slow to move and engage with. Your best bet is to just play defense for your team, or reposition to where the Rogue has to engage you in your zone of control.

[signal rain]

No you see a rogue you bait the sneak once he pops it he has 60 seconds or what 8 steps I back out the room or me and my team go shoulder to shoulder and walk down the hallway till we bump him then kill him

[rigid prawn]

If he does then you can take advantage of it sure! if not hes someone elses problem.

[quick blade]

Exactly. Can't catch them, can't outmaneuver them and at best the will chip away at your hp from distance. Fighter in green play is going to take what 3 shots from the hand crossbow maybe 5 from a naked rogue.
ok 14 seconds of them kiting you with no way to fight back.

[rigid prawn]

This guy gets it

[lone crescent]

You didn't understand my point

If he camps in an unreachable spot and you don't have any ranged weapons how do you win?

[rigid prawn]

By leaving

[signal rain]

You go to a different room stop fighting him in a battle zone he has prepared and has the advantage

[abstract swallow]

The entire point of Rogue is that he can get somewhere first, and prepare to ruin the day of whoever gets there second. Ranger is very similar.

[quick blade]

If they just kite you how do you fight back. You can run away they both move faster and open doors instantly. And they do as much damage as a bard ax with their crossbow.

A naked rogue with a white crossbow does more damage than a longbow. 50-60 damage.

[lone crescent]

What if you can't leave? You just accept you can't win? Isn't that op?

[signal rain]

If you team comp has no range you should lose

[quick blade]

So a team should lose to a solo rogue.

[rigid prawn]

How about, make the crossbow deal less damage at a distance? It already has dramatically worse arc of travel compared to the other bows, make it so you can just ignore it lol

[ionic anchor]

this upholsteredhero guy is a brick wall man, at least kanohn is trying to converse. you are making rogue sound like the most OP badass thing, like idk what kind of rogues you played against or if you were this unbelievably OP badass rogue who 1 shot everyone, but this was just not my experience with rogues at all. they die easy and they rarely put out enough damage to strength based classes to call any close range fight a fair fight.

[lone crescent]

That's straight up bullsh1t

[quick blade]

It absolutely has to be removed, it does not belong on rogue.

[abstract swallow]

"What do I do to best a Barbarian swinging on me already."
"How do I kill a Ranger after stepping in his trap?"
"What do I do after walking into a Judgement."
"How can you beat a Fighter if he was a real class liked by any dev but Greysun?"
You're asking the wrong questions, even though you're arguing for the right points.

[signal rain]

What makes you think you should be able to run 3 melee characters and be prepared for every scenario?

[quick blade]

The only reason the rogues are arguing so hard is that they know it does not belong and is game breaking.

[trim maple]

Honestly I think it's fun and should stay and I have literally never played rogue

[rigid prawn]

Yeah this exactly, I know you guys miss DAD but im not here to roleplay a dungeon crawl, different situations give strengths and weaknesses to different classes. Bows are a rogues counter in ruins, thats a fact. Everything else in conjecture

[signal rain]

I play ranger and hate rogue but this rogue is op talk is nonsense other then double jump on ruins they Arnt bad

[lone crescent]

Is being powerless fun to you? I just want a good 50/50 scenario, that's what i call balance and fun

[ionic anchor]

if you take away hand crossbows, which i barely used btw because they were so hard to get. i still would play rogue, and i would run hide, wouldnt run double jump out of principal because it is stupidly OP probably rupture, and would be about sub-par and easily die to almost any strength based class i ran into. including cleric.

[quick blade]

Crossbow rogue kills a green and blue geared 3 man in 7 crossbow shots.

How many arrows does it take for a ranger to kill a 3 man. Why should the rogue be the best up close fighter, the best ranged fighter, the best miner, and the fastest moving class.

[lone crescent]

Ah and the unreachable place i was talking about wasn't even in ruins but in goblin caves

[trim maple]

Yea, ppl in this chat are just butthurt because some rogue geared in purples dunked on them from the top of the empire state building

[rigid prawn]

What you ask is impossible unless everyone has access to everything. The very definition of class based games is you get advantages for the exchange of weaknesses. If a class i to strong you dont take away what makes it strong, your add to its weaknesses.

[quick blade]

What weakness does the rogue have with double jump and crossbow?

[signal rain]

Kanohn there’s nothing 50/50 about this game if that’s what your looking for go find another game. Ppl could just have better gear then you and you lose. Or jump you while your looting there is no 50/50. Your team comp matters. If you don’t plan well you don’t do well that’s life how is this concept hard to grasp

[quick blade]

The rogue weakness was that it was vulnerable to rangers and had to get up close to kill things.

Now it is neither.

[signal rain]

They die in 2 hits

[rigid prawn]

Squishy, short range, utility is weak, not as good synergy with teammates as other classes, try to think of some yourself!

[quick blade]

Only class worth playing.

everything dies in 2-3 hits even barb.

[rigid prawn]

This has got to be bait at this point right? Arguing for the sake of arguing it feels lol

[signal rain]

No to barbs maybe cause they beef cakes but for most classes it’s 3-6 hits to die except rogue like 2

[lone crescent]

That's the main reason i don't think double jump need to stay in the game, every class should be able to reach any place, thing like unreachable place kills the fun

[gray crater]

they just need to put invisible walls on ruins

[abstract swallow]

The issue with Rogue is that his advantage state is too easy and rewarding (DJ overshadows all other anti-mobility and stealth options, HandBow rewards full debuffs application without melee) and it is too hard to take him out of that advantaged state (high mobility + unlimited vertical movement minimizes exposure while moving and maximizes ambush opportunities and exclusive terrain advantage)

[quick blade]

1 class that is un-killable and can one shot you while flying through the air and zooming around like the flash is totally balanced and fun you convinced me.

[rigid prawn]

That can me fixed while keeping double jump in the game by adjusting the map. Reducing the amount of spots that ba rogue can reach would be an option as well.

[signal rain]

Called map knowledge and perks of a class avoid those areas nothing forced you to be there. But I will say if your talking about ruins yes that climbing on top of the castle is broken but in dungeons I don’t see any issues

[rigid prawn]

Ruins was a blast but traversal was a little too good i admit.

[quick blade]

If you have to negate half the abilities of the class to include something it's not the class that is broken.

[signal rain]

Bro you rogues ran me out of there got jumped a few times and went back to the crypts for rest of playtest

[rigid prawn]

Doesn't the rogue have like 12 Actives lol

[abstract swallow]

Can you explain what you mean in a full sentence or two, champ?

[lone crescent]

I told you before that there is an unreachable rock in goblin caves just to give an example, and it's in the middle of the map

You can't even talk about avoiding certain places when you are forced to move by the zone shrinking, it's not an option

[quick blade]

Crossbow needs to go, Double jump needs to go. Both are game breaking and can never be balanced.

[rigid prawn]

It was truly a thieves den, doesn't help that rangers were at an all time low with the ammo addition.

[ionic anchor]

@somber wind I thought it did apply to yourself? i swear i've seen the buff after playing songs.

[quick blade]

You could jump over the arrows.

[signal rain]

I see your talking about solo play. This game is balanced around team play so you won’t ever get balanced solo play. I would hope they remove that rock or spot as that would be op

[somber wind]

It only applies to others sadly.

[rigid prawn]

Thats all luck though, if you get the bad circle pull that's tough but part of the game. Equal chance for the circle to pull the rogue to you

[signal rain]

Yea I was playing cleric until they gave the ranger more arrows the 10 arrows thing was bs

[quick blade]

Teamplay means nothing. lets talk team play you and your 2 fighters 1 cleric come up against 3 double jumping crossbow rogues.

[rigid prawn]

do the fighters have crossbows? @signal rain ranger was dogwater first day lol

[quick blade]

They kill 1 one you in less than a second from range. you fire your bow as fast as they do and maybe kill one before you are all dead

[ionic anchor]

man, you really think double jump crossbow is the craziest thing ever don't you. today is the first time i heard anyone complain as incessantly about this as you have.

[signal rain]

Uh my plan would be to back down a hallway shooting arrows at them as they advanced while my cleric healed who ever got hit once I saw rogues taking hits and back off to heal both fighters pop sprint and rush

[rigid prawn]

Solid tactics, they have 0 heals you beat them in sustain

[signal rain]

It’s obvious who’s played more then a playtest

[quick blade]

Then they just flank you. or wait for you to push. Or just kill you from range.

[lone crescent]

Anyway we can discuss for hours here but none of us are game devs, all we can do is trust Ironmace, I'm sure they will find a way to balance everything

[rigid prawn]

You're a broken record, address whats been said already lol they can reduce the damage its not the end of the world man

[signal rain]

How can they flank me in a hallway. I have better armor and ranger and a healer I win the poke fight and in a straight up tussle rogues die quick unless you spam attacks and let them bait ur swings

[ionic anchor]

youd die to the fighter first, you have no heals, less health and can easily be outhealed and outtanked.

[quick blade]

They out maneuver all other classes, They out ranged dps them as well now. And with move speed and double jump their ehp is pretty high.

[signal rain]

I love your troll bro

[abstract swallow]

I mean at least a few of us are gamedevs, and all we can do is trust Big G and IronMace, but I'm going to argue anyways.

[quick blade]

The fighter dies in 3 crossbow shots.

[ionic anchor]

the rogue dies in 1 crossbow shot to the head, and the fighter lives from either his heal or the clerics heals.

[rigid prawn]

The fighter is level 20 in purples. he has 90% physical damage reduction. Your crossbow deals 8 damage on the headshot and hes sprinted and in your face. Rogues body is looted before it hits the floor

[signal rain]

Lol

[quick blade]

a purp build rogue 2 shots that fighter with headshots.

[rigid prawn]

Not with 90% reduction he doesn't

[ionic anchor]

a purp figher 1 shots the rogue without head shots.

[quick blade]

You all have no idea what you are talking about.

[signal rain]

As a ranger rogues would be still be standing still on the 3rd shot of triple shot before they realized I can see there footsteps when they go invisible

[rigid prawn]

Make your own game, with blackjack and hookers!

[ionic anchor]

you have no idea what you are talking about, you clearly dont play much rogue

[willow lava]

90% dmg reduction shouldn't even be possible in a game like this in the first place

[rigid prawn]

You're not wrong lol. Point is rogue wasn't the only class to get broken shit this playtest

[quick blade]

This rogue does not go invis they use weakpoint and rupture and hit you with a hand crossbow for no less than 100 damage.

Your a ranger right

A naked rogue with a white hand crossbow hits for over 50 damage chest shot. What does your longbow do

[abstract swallow]

"90% resistance shouldn't exist"
t. guy who plays class with a 100% double resist ability

[ionic anchor]

45 base damage for a white longbow and added 3 shot ability makes 3 shots before you can do 2.

[quick blade]

You have to see them first and prefire pre aim. How often do you have that advantage against a rogue?

[signal rain]

So if I were to get nailed. I’d probably run out of the room if I didn’t see where it came from if I did ima send triple shot back and kill him while he is reloading. And bud I used the hand crossbow it’s not doing half of ppl hp unless maybe it’s a purple one to the head but I never saw one passed green

[quick blade]

The rogue double jumps over your 3 shot

[ionic anchor]

if they are running rupture and weak point it shouldnt be that hard to see them before they see you especially if you are running the increased hearing and/or tracking perks.

[signal rain]

I mean he can try but that’s not gonna help him I can aim

[rigid prawn]

Amazing, how couldn't he have seen this obvious counter

[signal rain]

Damn didn’t see that one coming guess ima have to shoot some more arrows

[quick blade]

still alive. and with his second shot now 2 of your party are dead.

You are all trolling.

Any ranged weapon on rogue besides throwing knife will always be completely broken.

[rigid prawn]

Alright heres the answer. All classes now have double jump done fixed. perfect game

[signal rain]

Listen man. Who hurt you? What was there in game name?

[rigid prawn]

This guy got reamed by rogues the entire playtest and hes out for blood

[ionic anchor]

you're like that kid of makes up the most extreme story and then proudly proclaimins they've proven you wrong and you are all inferior to my extremely unlogical and super biased opinion.

[signal rain]

This guys talking like he’s a henchman in a John wick movie

[abstract swallow]

Honestly, some sort of universal movement mechanics is needed. Ledgegrab/mantle/climbable surfaces are a must, especially with how the game refuses to let you move over the edges of surfaces you're touching.
Trying to climb ladders without a macro is suffering.

[quick blade]

None of you ran the crossbow rogue did you? Or you did and just don't want people to know how broken it was. level 15 with a white crossbow and you were un-killable. Only would die to another crossbow rogue that got the jump on you.

[ionic anchor]

i ran it but it wasnt THIS powerful, like i did finally get some kills on fighters and barbs, but it was still kinda rare. and only with the support/sacrafice of my teamates.

[signal rain]

I was using it on a ranger but I killed a few rogues who had it the only rogues I fear are the ones I didn’t hear and get right next to me with a knife

[abstract swallow]

Sounds like a skill issue on your part, champ.

[quick blade]

Yup rogue does 100+ damage from range while being so fast to be completely untouchable=skill issue.

When you played rogue you were playing a different game than everyone else. It was like easy mode.

[abstract swallow]

The HandBow needs a nerf, and it isn't just Rogue's fault.
There is also... The forbidden techniques.

[rigid prawn]

I used it for the last couple days after i had a few kits and some money. I also try not to abuse broken mechanics that are going to be fixed since they teach bad habits/ laziness. I used weakpoint instead of the flip occasionally for the damage boost of my shortsword but always had flip on with bow since it was fun as hell to pull off ina fight. I used the bow to chip damage inbetween engagements

[willow lava]

guys help me there's meat stuck in my braces

[rigid prawn]

Shadow rush is a slept on perk btw, saved me a few times

[signal rain]

I just liked after you finally ran through my barrage of arrows and you get that hope when you see the ranger pull the sword out it’s like yes I have you. I Ike to pull the arming sword hand bow out and give you one last shot as you walk in

[rigid prawn]

The worst is when you close the distance and then you see the spear appear, make you turn right around

[ionic anchor]

same with the broken mechanics, like sure some shit was a bit broken but you knew it would be patched out. thats like saying guys the jokester perk that you could stack inifinitely was fair. it wasn't... obviously. but not too many people are genuinely as scarred from hand crossbows as you(upholsteredHero) seem to be.

[signal rain]

Lol your like we fuck it gets worse

[rigid prawn]

Wrong guy obviously, i want double jump and the handbow to stay :P

[ionic anchor]

sorry i forgot i was replying to you and saying you at the end there.

[signal rain]

Keep double jump when you kill a rogue mid double jump they go flying funny to watch don’t remove from game

[rigid prawn]

No worries duderino!

[rigid prawn]

My fav was fighting other rogues when they try to hop over you and you have a shortsword ready, overheads are prime time rogue slayers

[worldly crow]

I think a simple fix would be to add a Damage reduction penalty when you're airborne. I.e. if you're in the air, you take more damage if hit. This would help mitigate double-jump somewhat, and might also put a damper on the general annoying jump-spam meta.

[rigid prawn]

Would make it a high risk, high reward maneuver but keeps it as an option since it is handy for some PVE like skeleton knights! throw a suggestion in!

[worldly crow]

I will when my suggestion timeout expires - already have one up 😉

[rigid prawn]

RIP

[trim maple]

Honestly I had a similar idea, just reduce armor rating by like 15% if you have double jump

[tulip venture]

how do you make a suggestion

[worldly crow]

I'd just hate to see double jump removed entirely (I never played rogue btw) I think it's a fun feature. Just make it riskier instead of an auto-spam feature

[rigid prawn]

go to the #1048762118255673428 tab and follow the instructions!

[tulip venture]

thanks man i still cant find it i must of hidden that channel but i can still access it with your link

[rigid prawn]

No problem!

[granite plinth]

perhaps add fall damage if you take double jump

[rigid prawn]

I'm with it but ive heard the devs are against it. They think no fall damage is more fun

[worldly crow]

Yeah I like no fall damage

[abstract swallow]

Fall damage would disproportionately punish high/low HP classes in a game where exploring the dungeon is meant to be half the fun
Falling shouldn't hurt you, falling into a trap should.

It's not a mechanic like weight/item ID that'll regulate dungeon flow, it's just a straight resource tax for having height advantage and not already being ranged

[tulip venture]

UpholsteredHero#7043 im 100% certain theyre gonna add quivers the inventory nerf rangers got im sure really hurt their statistics with average loot

[rigid prawn]

Decent argument, Just feels weird to fall from 100ft and land without even bending your knees. A landing animation would solve a lot of problems without adding fall damage

[worldly crow]

Yeah I like the landing animation idea a lot

[trim maple]

didnt think it was that bad, arrow stack size was high and they were plenty to come by. rangers having to trade inventory space for ammo space is a good thing, not a bad thing

[worldly crow]

A nice mitigation to double-jumping rogues getting super high where other classes can't reach

[abstract swallow]

rangers were like 0.50 to 0.70 over average for loot so it's entirely understandable they'd tax the class and limit its loot output

[quick blade]

I would drop arrows at the end of match and pick up extra loot. arrows worth 3.33 gp per slot.

I think adding a quiver to fix the inventory space loss but making it use the cape slot offers a nice balance of positives and negatives.

Ranger was probably the most balanced class of playtest 5. Only thing was that the traps were more difficult to disarm than they should have been due to server lag. But that mini game server lag issue is one they will fix at some point I hope because it's the same issue with pick locks.

[tulip venture]

thats a fair point they did have tremendous pve capability

[abstract swallow]

I'm sure Rangers will get their quivers when we get weight+bags+Resourcefulness though

[worldly crow]

I struggled with ranger personally but I suck at the game. My big problem was the starter bow taking like 8 headshots to kill a single skeleton.

[quick blade]

I ran survival bows mostly. You could by purple ones for 50gp and do about the same damage as a white recurve.

[worldly crow]

Sounds great if you have 50gp lol

[quick blade]

Also bows really common in the loot pool. you kill a few skellies and you get one.

[worldly crow]

I only started on the second to last day of playtest 5 so didn't have a lot of time to git gud.

[quick blade]

Ranger is a great newbie class so is cleric.

trick is to pull mobs straight towards you at first.

Makes it easier to aim. when they marching in a straight line at you.

[worldly crow]

Those were the two classes I played mostly. I had much better results with cleric but I think it was in large part due to using healing to patch over bad play lol

I didn't really have trouble aiming - I'd hit all the headshots. Many years in shooters.

[tulip venture]

starting with cleric helps you learn the game faster with less lobby time

[quick blade]

Ranger use his biscuits to heal as well. Both very forgiving in pve for new players

[worldly crow]

My big problem with cleric was I couldn't figure out how to block at all. I know you have to aim the shield but I could never get the hang of it. I don't think I ever successfully blocked a single hit.

[quick blade]

Blocking was a little easier in pt5 as well. The issue is some mobs can hit you even if you block. And the new mobs you had to avoid somehow.

[tulip venture]

the main thing is you have to put the shield in a position that you wont be able to see it coming ive found the shield most useful blocking overhead chops and bonks + mob headseeking arrows- it felt like to block anything you had to be looking at the ceiling and it helped if you were crouched

[worldly crow]

Yeah I never did sort out the positioning - I even had a friend hit me over and over again at camp trying to get one block in. I tried crouching and aiming way high - it seemed to just go right through every time. Obviously missing something because other people can do it.

[abstract swallow]

Blocking had a lot of issues for me in PT5. The new melee skeles consistently swung through blocks, as did most players. It wasn't even the usual offenders, I just saw lots of hits clip straight through parries and shields and especially walls.

[worldly crow]

Anyway I only got to play for like 2 days - I'm sure I'll get the hang of it. Still the most fun I've had in any game for many years.

Funny thing is I had never even heard of the game until Nexon sued. When I read in some random article that you had to torrent the game, I thought "well I'm going to try this one for sure!"

I suppose I should thank Nexon for turning me on to it. 😉

[summer storm]

Bard should have an ability like a campfire.

But instead he passed a joint around for all the players.

Because Bards always carry that good pack

[feral rock]

Well, lets just hope Nexon does not win any lawsuits and DaD gets to be the thriving success it deserves to be

[worldly crow]

I think Nexon's lawsuit is pretty weak tbh but you can never predict with certainty what the courts will do>

Even if they win, the most likely outcome is that IM just has to pay them royalties from their sales. Courts are very reluctant to issue injunctions or render judgments that effectively put a company out of business.

[feral rock]

I have not checked out the different lawsuits. But from my understand the individuals may have breached their contract of not joining a similar type of game or business after leaving company. That is normal is many companies, one being unable to leave and join a rival company in same line of business. So they might be liable for that. But as for game theft. I think their case look weak

[summer storm]

A likely outcome is literally forfeiture of IP, potential additional lawsuits and at worst; Jail time.

Best to prepare for the worst.

[worldly crow]

@summer storm it's a civil case, jail time isn't even on the table. "Forfeiture of IP" is almost never granted. To get that sort of judgment you have to prove irreparable harm, which is a tough one for Nexon to prove given they had abandoned the game.

Additional lawsuits? Maybe. They can sue all they like. But courts tend to frown on that practice as well.

@feral rock Noncompete agreements are disfavored and frequently thrown out in court in the U.S., especially in Washington where this case was filed.

[feral rock]

Was not the agreement case in Korean court and not NA? Also for the civil case. Yeah, most likely an economic thing if they lose

[worldly crow]

Yeah I don't know anything about the state of the litigation in Korea.

[abstract swallow]

DMCA is in Washington, USA
IP Theft is in Korea
Nxn has an obvious advantage in the latter, while the former is a copyright case that will be a complete mess if it isn't tossed immediately

[worldly crow]

Frankly I think noncompete agreements should just not be allowed under any circumstance.

[feral rock]

What about the suing of IM boss and the suing of the one who moved stuff to his own server when he worked for Nexon? Is that just the ip theft? Thought he got a solo suing too

[abstract swallow]

Most noncompetes are just employers trying to bully ex-employees out of their industry knowing most won't contest them, very few cases are sensitive enough to warrant them.

[abstract swallow]

Mr. A?
He got stuck between a rock and a hard place, and is probably going to jail for the better part of a decade because the hard place was a wannabe-megacorp.

[worldly crow]

Think so? I'd heard they raided him multiple times and never found any evidence that he had stolen anything.

He downloaded some stuff to wfh during the pandemic like a lot of people did, sounded to me like there was some miscommunication about whether that was allowed. But there's no evidence he used any of that in DaD.

(just what I've heard, I haven't done a deep dive into that guy's individual case).

[abstract swallow]

They've got him in a catch-22 that conveniently leaves him open to criminal legal troubles.
Honestly? Just seems like your usual psycho middle manager stuff to me: force employees into tenuous situations that can trick them into decisions that mean they can be easily let go, shift inevitable blame for problems onto one of those compromised scapegoats.

[worldly crow]

Welp I don't know the law in Korea. In America Nexon's case looks extremely weak and even if they win it'll probably just come down to royalties. In Korea? Who knows.

[summer storm]

Holy christ I had re-written the same message 6 times, what word is it? Korea?

[abstract swallow]

I know that feeling.
It's probably cl*wn.

[summer storm]

Charges

News

[feral rock]

Well if it is IP theft. Then they will blame it on him nevertheless if they find anything on him. If it is a valid claim I don't know

[summer storm]

I was discussing... The supposed... Allegations within Korea specifically. Okay cool, that sentence works.

Due to the allegations of stolen source code.

Although nothing has been found.

We have not received an official verdict or answer to it. To my knowledge KNPA still retain the servers

[worldly crow]

Yeah that one seems pretty weak to me as well. IM has published their git logs that make it pretty clear their code is their own.

[feral rock]

Guess I am stupid. What is KNPA?

[summer storm]

I'm aware, though as I said; Since there hasn't been an official verdict yet or actual news regarding it, the charges are still very valid. If it is true, they are done. Plug is pulled, that is actual prison time.

@feral rock KNPA are the National Police and tend to oversee matters such as Cyber Security, corporate espionage and all those types of allegations, basically anything "big".

[abstract swallow]

Trade Secrets. That's the catch, the source code shebang has already come and gone after being thoroughly btfo'd. Trade Secrets is much vaguer, all they have to do is convince the court that IM couldn't have developed the game without proprietary information from their time at Nxn working on P-3.
Now, that seems obviously farcical to most people that have ever played a dungeon crawler or MMO before, especially for a game made by clearly passionate industry veterans, but it's a matter of getting the law to understand the layman PoV that Nxn didn't invent 50-year standard mechanics and prepackaged asets.

[worldly crow]

The trade secret case is even more of a complete joke than the copyright case.

[summer storm]

I'm not here to dispute what could be right, what could be wrong. Not here to discuss that, but saying that the worst case is them paying royalties? No, far from it. Worst case is some of these guys, or one of them at least goes away for a very long time should NEXON have their way on the Korea case. Until there's an official response from KNPA regarding the stolen code, it could be true, could be false, who knows.

I will chime in on the US one though, that does actually look like a complete joke.

[feral rock]

I don't see how anything they have in the game is trade secret lol. You can't say whatever people have in their knowledge/skills is a trade secret. Nothing new is implemented with Dark and Darker as far as I can feel about the game

[worldly crow]

Oh I wasn't saying that was the worst case. I was saying it was the most likely case if they lose the lawsuit. You can never tell for sure what the courts will do.

[feral rock]

I just hope we get a resolve before people spend money on the game, only for it to be removed with no refunds.

[summer storm]

I believe most of their accusation relies on the market data aspect of trade secrets, rather than any gameplay elements. Fortunately the market data and user market stuff would be harder to prove, theoretically.

[worldly crow]

So they're saying that they had market data showing that this sort of game would be a success?

[summer storm]

From what I've read through (not a lawyer, obviously.) Is that the general notion of their idea buried below gameplay accusations, and all that, the classes the torches, the doors whatever, that's all just like a shotgun where if one sticks then cool, if it all gets dismissed then whatever, but the main one I'm seeing discussed is that they had access to the market data of P3, and knew exactly what medium / demographic to tap into regarding the product.

This is all theoretical, of course.

Obviously this tends to fall apart on the "But they abandoned the project" to which most people would say. "... Eh, but like 80% of the team of the project left, which was Iron Mace."

And then you can go back and forth which I'm not doing.

[abstract swallow]

It's important to note that many early legal documents/allegations like this are about providing many options so that as many as possible stick and become valid avenues to pursue.
It only takes one bullet point to make it through and become a real legal case, and Nxn has shown they'll hire the best of the best for this.
It's very hard to provide an argument so bad in this context that it actually sets you back unless it actively contradicts another, and even then not always.

[atomic geyser]

link morani 🤢

[worldly crow]

Sure. Initial complaints routinely take this sort of shotgun approach. It's also important to note that they are heavily biased attempts to persuade and shouldn't be taken uncritically. But yes, it only takes one element to stick.

IM appears to have hired a pretty good lawyer as well. I read his letter to Valve - it was pretty on point.

Fun fact: it is actually a federal crime in the U.S. to knowingly file an invalid copyright claim. Hard to prove but the shotgun approach isn't zero risk.

[upper sonnet]

It's actually a possibility to lose a copyright case so badly you lose the copyright entirely like what happened to McDonalds in Ireland. They tried to sue some local super market chain called 'SuperMacs' for Big Mac Trademark. Lost the case so hard they lose the Trademark to Big Mac in the EU

[trail forge]

Isn't it wild the people who weren't even creative enough to develop the body pillow simulator that is maple story on their own has the audacity to get all indignant over a brilliant indie company making a successful game by not putting profit over content?

The world would objectively be a better place without shit smear companies like Nexon dragging us into the creatively destitute hellscape that is late stage capitalism

[young dune]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[latent tundra]

Dw dark and darker is like heroin so we’ll do what we can to help

[rich mantle]

I know there arent that many wizard players high roller this time around but what do you guys think about this #d-and-d-suggestions message , even with gear at the end of the test i would still have faster clear speed pve with either my rogue/warr/barb rather then my wizard even my team mates asked me to switch so we can do more boss atempts as with wizard if we get shitty zone and i have to rest we dont have the time to kill it.

[tawdry nexus]

make more materials to find in dungeon like spider silk, mushrooms, bones, etc then be able to trade them for crafting string, potions, etc

[pulsar lily]

Ranger when up against a fighter with armor can be frustrating because 3 headshots and maybe a quarter of his health is gone. Maybe make magic arrows an item to mitigate rangers weakness to physical damage reduction?

[somber wind]

@sterile cape I feel like you wouldn't want the situation Instruments with unique songs would cause. It would cause people to bring multiple instruments in their inventory in addition to what they have equipped and swap them out mid fight making it a mandatory thing to do to be a good Bard.

From my suggestion from before I avoided that by Instruments instead modifying how songs work. Stuff like AoE size, Manipulation of the Minigame, How loud the song is, How long the buff is, How long the duration of the song is and if it can be played while resting or not.

[autumn flare]

@summer storm I saw some Kira's video about that case. There were some models (mage skelet, zombie and troll) from P3 that looked almost the same as in DaD. Could it be fake. And if its not, is it a big shit?

[trail forge]

Yes brother you are 100% correct so spread the good word

[queen lotus]

Not fake. Companies as large as Nexon do not enter into legal disputes without a good amount of proof.

TLDR on any kind of lawsuit; skip to the bottom to the relief section. It outlines what the lawsuit is actually alleging.
In this case, the prayer for relief in laymans terms boils down to;

a. prevent dark and darker from releasing or being sold due to infringing on Nexon's copyright.
b and c. turn over all dark and darker material to nexon
d. Award nexon money from ironmace for the "ill-gotten gains"
E. award nexon money for their lawyer fees
F. "Awarding such other and further relief as this Court may deem just and appropriate.". Give nexon extra money for punitive damages.

A, B, and C all relate to copyright claims. As ideas and concepts are not copyrightable in the US, this makes point A, B, and C null.
F, while possible, is unlikely. Punitive damages are usually only rewarded when the defendant is extremely flagrant in their crime. IM has a decent defense it looks like, so they probably won't be awarded.

This leaves D and E. These are not related to copyright infringement. They are related to the theft of trade secrets, and this is where nexon actually has a really strong argument, and will probably win. Royalty fees or fines awarded to nexon are likely.

source; I made it the fuck up/it was revealed to me in a dream/methamphetamines

[trail forge]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

Best suggestion I've seen all day.

Wizard used to be way more interesting when it came out the gate strong but didn't hyper scale with gear

@fathom bolt

[autumn flare]

Thank you brother. That means, most likely we gonna get the game to play? If they release it is going to be bestseller anyway.

[queen lotus]

Probably. The entire bit about removing it from sale and turning over assets only comes into play if copyright infringment is found. And that's damn near impossible.
However, it's pretty likely that nexon will be awarded some sort of royalties for the theft of trade secrets. That is, likewise, nearly impossible for IM to disprove.

[trail forge]

Imagine giving a single fuck about a shit tier company like Nexon getting ripped off

[autumn flare]

Can't wait to fap in the dungeon with my fighters naked feet then.

[trail forge]

"Trade secrets" let me dig up Gary Gygax to take a litigious dump on maple story's whole vapid class system

[twin nymph]

RIP Gary Gygax, the Great Grandfather of fantasy gaming.

[robust bison]

The actual pb with that is u can't rly do both, of u nerf early it will also be nerfed late and vice versa

[steep ocean]

@granite plinth your "suggestions" are a literal joke, seriously have you even played the game? "add pvp toggle to prevent pve'rs from being backstabbed while looting
" bruh what's wrong with you? Go play farming simulator because this game is too much for you to handle.

[pale ruin]

Thats the point. They are a joke. He is definitely trolling. Right @granite plinth ?

[obtuse lichen]

Dude he is a public crown

[steep ocean]

yea, he literally wanted a map with pirates and ships and also to add horses like bruhhh

[obtuse lichen]

c lown is censored

[steep ocean]

censorship

[pale ruin]

He wanted to make the game into an one piece game lmao

[empty patio]

yea who tf would want that 😅

[steep ocean]

he is a literal anime weeb, who paid 10$/month to have his anime husband as an gif pfp

[gloomy cradle]

Why people hate fall damage so much? Pretty standard thing for games, and this game isn't even very vertical

[autumn flare]

cuz in dad you have 3 places you could get hurt, its literally so small part of the game

talking about crypts ofc. the fall dmg would be useless since you just shortens a bit distance to walk in like 2 places and one is just a room where you dont go down too often anyway

[pallid sleet]

I thought they were good ideas

[empty patio]

Does anyone think they should limit to one class per slot on a squad?

[real trellis]

Fall damage would make rogue doublejump even stronger because they could hold the second jump till just before splatting and avoid the damage.

[empty patio]

Eh I think I’ve played games where this would still result in death.

[real trellis]

Abso-fcking-lutely not.
@steep ocean dude literally only comes here to post the most dogwater of anime-related suggestions, report him for trolling if you want but I highly recommend blocking him and moving on lol

[empty patio]

Yea I don’t mind it either. I like freedom in my games.

[real trellis]

Elden ring having a pants-on-head stupid fall damage system calculated by time spent airborne instead of velocity is not an industry standard.

[empty patio]

Lol I don’t think that’s the only one. And all I’m saying is there are ways around the last second double jump.

[real trellis]

I can't think of any other games with a double jump system and fall damage where waiting for the last moment to hit the second jump has not prevented fall damage

[autumn flare]

I would like to see 2 players same class limit per squad if they ever make some 4 and more players mode. Imagine 4 clerics in squad, just killing some player by pressing judgment in the same time, or 4 rangers shooting from far away. Or 4 fighters with 95% dr XD

[empty patio]

The 4 way judgement spam would def tilt me. I remember when overwatch used to let a squad of genjis torbjorns and bastions run around shamelessly

[rich mantle]

@autumn flare does this look familiar to you https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace/en-US/product/skeleton or this mace and shield https://i.imgur.com/t41GRqM.png, all the stuff are from unrealstore ofc they look the same, you cant copy right that how are people not 'getting this' i can show you a game that uses same torch model as this game just different light

[meager jasper]

Id much rather have duos implemented than fours imo.

[rich mantle]

does this feel SIMILAR TO YOU https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace/en-US/product/cave-troll-medium

HOW ARE PEOPLE like NOT GETTING this, its not copy right for fuck sake, legit 3 games had same troll model before dark and darker hello?????? Ask any1 working in the space will tell you the same please check the link above i beg you

[gaunt cargo]

Almost all of the assets used in DaD are publicly available for sale on the Unreal marketplace and used by numerous other games. Their decision to purchase the same ones for those mobs maybe wasn't the brightest, though.

[autumn flare]

Ye i know it, that's why I'm asking if that is 100% legal. The graphics aren't nexon ofc but if you use same set of them in your game that can be stinky a bit. Ye if you have same 1 mob model it's completely ok but what if actually almost all models which are used are the same and doing same things when implemented to the game? This is my question.

[rich mantle]

its 100% legal, once you buy it from unreal store you can use it any way shape or form you want and you also SHOULD EXPECT it to be used in the future or already used by some one else, for example check knight online from 2002/3 has same gargoyle has same skeleton etc

[empty patio]

I can’t wait for P3Gate to be over

[meager jasper]

Asset flips cannot copyright something unless they transform it meaningfully

[rich mantle]

@autumn flare have you played any custom war3 maps, or starcraft maps etc

[autumn flare]

So that means the Ironmace will 100% win and we will have DaD released soon?

[rich mantle]

This has happened in the past serach my history of similar posts i worked at studio that got similar thing happen to us after we shocase demo of the game and got really popular, often big dogs will try kill the competition this way, it's not the first time nexon does anything like this check stuff from 2012/13 about mapplestory

[meager jasper]

Law takes months to work regardless so no

[gaunt cargo]

It's possible for them to be in trouble if their "arrangement" of the assets is so substantially similar that court decides they couldn't possibly have arranged them that way without their experience on P3. A guy in this server put it well earlier - it's not about individual words in a song being copyrighted, it's how you arrange them.

[meager jasper]

But their case is totally spurious.

[rich mantle]

the idea is for nexon to bleed em out or delay the game as much as possible so it never goes out or untill they have similar product for the korean market, there was already 2 years cival case against one of the people, +2 police raids that didnt find anything

[autumn flare]

I know nexon very well, also don't like them cuz of their business model and P2W mechanics in games. Played combat arms long time ago.

[rich mantle]

You have a troll boss in level 1 solo dungeon in the lord of the rings game here is picture https://i.imgur.com/FSNaQ1W.png so did p3 copy right that too or stole the idea, etc.Also goblin caves was added way later, as requsted by community to have a boss there, asset was bought just months before playtest 2 so like for real.

[autumn flare]

You don't get my point brother, I know you can find some same 3D models in different games. I am just asking if using like 80% of them being almost the same as in other game is still ok.

Like you know 18 mobs looks the same and does same thing

[rich mantle]

Ok brother i assume you from Poland, do you know the game heroes of newearth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes_of_Newerth do you know what dota and this have in common, please answer

[autumn flare]

Never heard of it

[rich mantle]

What about paragon game here is 2 different games inspired by same one let me show you https://store.steampowered.com/app/1531430/Paragon_The_Overprime/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gw9fJGKvcc shall we copy right this and all the other mobas/

Heroes of new earth uses same characters and spells like dota, +it had even commentary from holywood actors example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUL99a2LlA

[distant night]

nexons claims arent that our boys copied assets, its that they left with the "idea" for the game

[rich mantle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2mQEb7Bw3A there you go you can see items stats is the same, so please again think very carefully if you gonna ask me if we buy same assets from engine and use them exactly the same if we are in trouble?

coz all games that have any m4 variant or ak variatn should be copy righted by cs go, or wait delta or force wait im confused now, but its exactly the same model with exactly same year made in real life by the same person please advise.

What about tft set 2 and dota 2 auto chess, 3 units with same set bonus magic ressit and armor to the exact number should one copy right the other what you think?

[gaunt cargo]

All I can say, Norfindel, is that the guy you're talking to isn't a lawyer, and this case is much broader than he's representing.

[autumn flare]

Ok that's what i wanted to hear. Also it was very educative. I just wanted to ask cuz there are many ppl saying different things and I am not into computer games copyright law too much. Thank you and wish you good day @rich mantle

[rich mantle]

Path of exile starting wizard has spark blizzard same way diablo mage has it, should we copy right that too since 2 of 3 starting spells are the same?

both games have act 1/2/3/4/5 as in power 1 is weakest 5 is hardest should we copy right that too, sounds very simialr no? they are also in same genre on steam!1111!!!

[autumn flare]

@gaunt cargoYup I am just poor engineer not a lawyer, either is Kira and there is nothing wrong in asking someone who knows better. I decided to simply ask here on this discord server cuz on almost half million ppl there is 100% chance somebody knows XD

[rich mantle]

Kira will get clicks on anything that is popular, its not the first time hes done this, if moist makes a popular clip he will make a clip about it as well.Read the comments he said they close the discord and 'illegal distribution' of the game.

[distant night]

@autumn flare ye, its all jumbled, I just think this is the main point that they're going to argue tho

[gaunt cargo]

Their main point, and their best point, will likely be the trade secrets argument.

[rich mantle]

The fact that we have not seen video or anything playable on p3 should give you enough confidence

[autumn flare]

I have never seen this guy before, I am not diving in American YT. Thank you for that piece of information.

[gaunt cargo]

They've made a number of allegations in their filing, but due to the way the court system works, they only need 1 out of many to be "good enough" for the case not to be dismissed.

[rich mantle]

Eitherway i just find it very surreal how people watch youtube clip and dont even bother to look that other games use exact same models or like games like hereos of new earth have8 0% same content including down to the cost of the item and damage and hero spells and is not an issue but all of a sudden this is

or how smite has 3 items similar to legue or how league has exactly same mechanics as many dota chars or items spells that do the same item does in dota etc

[autumn flare]

I am just a weekend player, also not playing many games. I don't even watch what's new on steam etc. That is why i asked for all those things that bother me.

[rich mantle]

No problem, thats why i explain and provide you videos, you can see in the one above about 40 items are exactly the same , its moba same genre same 3 lines very similar characters both had esport scene and tournamnets etc

[autumn flare]

Yes now i see, pretty interesting.

[rich mantle]

Many of dota 2 players came from that game as well for example Akke that won international and many hon tournamnets a old team mate of mine > https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Akke Heroes of Newerth

Akke made his way back into competitive gaming with the release of Heroes of Newerth. Him and Loda joined a team called KD Gaming in late August 2010.[7] They both moved over to Online Kingdom and won the HoN Super Series in September 2011.[8] Akke received a 2011 GosuGamers HoN Award in the Best Support Player category, but shortly after this he decided to move on to Dota 2.[9]

[autumn flare]

Ok thank you, I won't bother you anymore and waste so much of your time 😄

[rich mantle]

nah it's ok , many games in same genre will have a lot of similar stuff you cant just copy right that it dosnt work otherwise we will have only 1 moba we wont have smite/league/dota/hon/paragon/hon/paladins heroes evolved etc

they all have a lot in common, from same amount of spells + ult to same starting items or potions that regen hp and mana, to shield that blocks incoming dmg etc etc you get the idea , same way every dungeon crawler game will have skeletons goblins snakes mummy's bats rats etc

[autumn flare]

Good that we will play DaD someday, I was scared that my drug won't be released and took some of those baits seriously XD

[rich mantle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7FPeUSOIGM&t=583s look at this, let me screenshot the skeleton

https://i.imgur.com/LrG2e1U.jpeg so should we copy right this game it has almost if not the same block mechanics, similar swing and skeleton on the floor is red and 90% similar to the ones in dark and darker what you think @autumn flare

[autumn flare]

:d

[rich mantle]

happy to talk to you my friend, hope you learn something more about this today, it's aways nice to speak to people in the are and have 2-3 different sources then just a random youtube video, its very easy to influence people now days, thats why the term influencer exist i guess, but anyway have a nice day and hope to see you in the game 🙂

[autumn flare]

Thank you once more, have a nice day brother 🙂

[restive drum]

i really hope they make this game easier to learn from and players can have more takeaways from fights hit markers would be great @willow dock

[obtuse lichen]

why do you need a hit markers

[empty patio]

Hit markers already exist that’s what the blood splatter is for. And rangers have a sound cue. Wizards have cues for some of the spells. And there will be a practice mode.

[obtuse lichen]

you can literally hear when you hit an enemy or see already

[restive drum]

Idk man game just doesnt have punchy blows that feel impactfull its a minor thing i guess

[obtuse lichen]

what

[restive drum]

On phone shits autstic

[weak vine]

Is there any unique ideas in the suggestion chat??? Or is it just everyone saying to add a quiver and remove double jump 💀

[willow dock]

I've been trying to figure out how they could add a 3rd skill slot into the game so that there is more build diversity especially for spellcasters but every time I think it's prob best to wait to see how the talent tree turns out

[obtuse lichen]

no

[vagrant stone]

Does anyone think crystal sword and magic staff cast time is perfect the way it is

[obtuse lichen]

yes but magic staff makes no sense to me
how the fuck stick with catalyst has less power than a book

[lone crescent]

No but think they are downvoting you cause they don't need to be the same, they need buff but still they need to be uniqeu

[abstract swallow]

Obviously not, the flourish can be longer than a geared cast/channel time.

[vagrant stone]

Honestly if anyone thinks double the cast time is good for the game ur crazy

I literally never cast with sword or staff as it's not viable.

[obtuse lichen]

i think the animation and cast speed on the magic staff should stay the same
The only buff it needs is magic power boost

[vagrant stone]

Even if the power is buffed I won't use it

[obtuse lichen]

no one forces you to use it anyways

[abstract swallow]

I've already thrown out my suggestion: just make the flourishes an actual attack for offensive spells. (And give them their own innate stats)

[vagrant stone]

What +1 dmg is worth it? Lol dude so much gear gives you additional magic dmg

[obtuse lichen]

my idea was increasing magic power stat not additional magic damage

[vagrant stone]

LOL PLEASE RETHINK THIS STATEMENT

[obtuse lichen]

#d-and-d-suggestions message @vagrant stone

[vagrant stone]

Bro you literally spawn in with the thing, you have to use it.

It's like double the cast time at least, even with one or two more damage it's a drop in the bucket.

[obtuse lichen]

Bro its % not flat

[vagrant stone]

Plus fireball and lightning already do a lot of damage. Even if we buff this thing to make it worth it, we could just end up messing with the game balance with 1 taps.

The problem is the casting animation.

[obtuse lichen]

Devs said that they were working on balancing mag res stat

[obtuse lichen]

idk if you didn't know about it but lighting already can and fireball as well

[vagrant stone]

The fact that magic weapons without cast animations are the only viable weapons makes the solution obvious

[vagrant stone]

Yes... I'm one of the better players here I know how the game works... So why make it even worse??

[lone crescent]

Longer casting time for more power is a huge buff btw

You can pair it with the insta casting skill

[obtuse lichen]

if its around 20% its mostly fine

[vagrant stone]

The cast time is super long, I could test it next time.. it's gotta be twice as long at least. You'd need to give it so much damage to be worth it that it'd just be stupid

[obtuse lichen]

I think you already get like 5% magic power per will

[vagrant stone]

The crystal sword animation literally takes at least one second. On top of the time it takes to cast the spell normally.

[obtuse lichen]

Just play with the book

[zinc scroll]

I think that the staff should have more magic power if youre sacrificing speed. just being able to melee isnt enough since the quarterstaff is available now. Literally no reason to use the staff over spellbook in any scenario

[obtuse lichen]

yeah thats what im trying to say

[vagrant stone]

We do, that's the problem nobody uses the staff and sword to cast or it's a death wish.

You spawn in with this piece of shit staff.

[obtuse lichen]

we'll see how it goes if somehow they'll see my idea and implement this into the game

Every weapon should stay unique and have pros and cons imo

[zinc scroll]

I also would like to use the staff just from a fantasy/aesthetic choice as well. Its an iconic weapon for a wizard and right now its obsolete

[vagrant stone]

I don't even really like the staff in the design at all, it's basically a worse version of the crystal sword

[abstract swallow]

I don't think they'll touch casting implements until we see Warlock or Class Trainer releases, but I do think they will fix it eventually.

[obtuse lichen]

its just your opinion

[vagrant stone]

I mean it's a worse version of the crystal sword

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah its true rn

Did you even see my idea about how to buff it or not?

[amber solstice]

They have been tweaking weapons every playtest to seemingly try to make them all viable.

[vagrant stone]

Look at cast time, move speed, cast damage, melee damage, staff kinda sucks. But what should it be good at?

Should staff do more melee dmg than crystal sword? I don't think so.

Should staff cast faster than spell book? I don't think so.

Should staff do more damage? I guess but is it even going to make a difference? How much dmg are we talking about?

[obtuse lichen]

its going to take less spells since you deal more damage or heal more with it

[lone crescent]

They just need to cind a good casting speed and power balance

[amber solstice]

They basically backward balanced the spellbook and have to deal with it at this point.

[obtuse lichen]

spell book should have only increased casting speed thats it

[vagrant stone]

Actually wrong, with wiz you always use magic missile and by and large the npcs die in one cast already

[obtuse lichen]

what are you smoking do you even consider other spells or only missiles?

[vagrant stone]

Have you played wiz? Lol you think fireball or zap are effective ways to kill skeletons?

[obtuse lichen]

Are you taking in account pvp as well?

[zinc scroll]

it should have increased move speed too. its just a book not a big clunky staff

[obtuse lichen]

I dont care about killing skellies with spells only because im not playing solo wizard
and also most of the time even if do kill them i use ignite like 80% of the time

[granite plinth]

Im an elite gamer but dark souls has pvp toggle, why not this game too?

[vagrant stone]

In pvp maybe a little bit I don't think that really is going to make a meaningful difference

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah ofc

[tulip venture]

because its a pvp game first pve second where dark souls is pve first pvp second

[hazy tulip]

Dark souls pvp is pretty trash

[zinc scroll]

well u said it should only have increased cast speed sooo

[steep ocean]

because darksouls in an completly diffrent game, mainly pvp and story line while this is an medieval battle royale with no place for weaklings like you

[obtuse lichen]

but i didnt mention anything about ms on both weapons that means im fine with it

[granite plinth]

Debatable. I liked the pve aspect of this game

[steep ocean]

"elite gamer" yet you cry when mobs deal some damage to you and other players can kill you

[vagrant stone]

Right now if you actually did a stat comparison of the cast time you'd see a glaring problem tbh

[granite plinth]

Its not just me? Here let me show u other people complaining about ut earlier

[steep ocean]

only you

[steady cloud]

i like that suggestion dont let the haters get to you i would pay 20$ to ironmace if they add pvp toggle... ive been backstapped too many times by toxic rogues and they dont gotten banned...

[obtuse lichen]

do the math

[steep ocean]

you get 200 downvotes and 2 upvotes, one from bot the other from yourself

[vagrant stone]

Probably could tbh from streams

[granite plinth]

Right here

[hazy tulip]

No, wizards need to fireball themselves and teammates.

[obtuse lichen]

kamikadze wizard

[steep ocean]

that guy mocked you he literally said that he wants you to perish in flames few messages above. You are so naive

[steady cloud]

wizards should have fireball and magic missles removed they make no sense and its not possible for humans to make fire from their hands OR books

[steep ocean]

its called fantasy game nerd

[lone crescent]

Ye I'm saying they need to change it, more power and less casting time, but still slower then book and crystal ball

[steady cloud]

there is no fantasy ? how is fighter holding sword fantasy ? or barbarian with axe and roar ability "fantasy" ?

[lone crescent]

While crystal sword can have its own spells all sword related for a battle mage

[steep ocean]

the spells are fantasy ya kid

[granite plinth]

It was a banter about another topic but he was saying mobs too op and ithers were too.

[zinc scroll]

Chivalry II is the game u are looking for

[steep ocean]

if you think that mobs are too op just learn how to dodge their basic attacks, its so simple

[steady cloud]

spells are not real... and other classes are all real so why is wizard a fake nonsense class ? it should be removed or remove some spells like fireball magic missle invisibility etc

[granite plinth]

How do u dodge 2 goblin archers?

[tulip venture]

side to side

[steep ocean]

270 turn + back with crouch

[zinc scroll]

also remove cleric healing, rogue invis, fighter 2nd wind, bard buffs, aand remove all skeletons because they dont exist

[granite plinth]

If u crouch they headshot u

[empty patio]

Mobs only OP for fresh spawns the way it should be

[steep ocean]

crouch when they already shot, the arrows are slow

[steep ocean]

When the early acces is gonna come out I want to play with you to see why are you complaining

[steady cloud]

skeletons are real u can find them in graveyards... cleric healing is medicine on the hands... rogue invis its real becos the japanese used it before... 2nd wind is real boxers have it... bard buffs its real becos hes singing and giving u energy or happy or sad...

[steep ocean]

least obvious troll

[empty patio]

If you don’t like the mobs maybe a PvPvE game is not for you

[steady cloud]

trolls dont exist................. whats wrong with u guys

[steep ocean]

you are a living proof, look at the mirror

[steady cloud]

im a human and ur a human no other races exist........

[granite plinth]

He is calling u ugly

[steep ocean]

nah, you are not smart enough to be a human like me ya bot

[hazy tulip]

homo-erectus

[lone crescent]

You just move in a straight line to bait they're arrow then you turn around and hit them, you can fight 2 archers together this way and don't get hit

[tulip venture]

m!lo#6942 how would you feel about a draggable cart to extract with additional loot that can only be found in the dungeon and disappears when you extract with it. backpacks are not my favorite

[drifting perch]

i wasn't saying the enemies are OP i was saying it makes sense that so many people complain about them since you see a third of the lobby die to them each round. I still personally think you're a NOOB

[ebon idol]

One third is a good number. Also, that number isn't always generated by PvE alone. Often people die due to bring pushed or zoned and are forced to fight PvE in unfavorable situations or in pressure, which leads to mistakes.

It is an important part of the games balancing as a PvPvE game that the PvE part doesn't get so easy it can be conpletely disregarded. Else you just get some battle royale.

[drifting perch]

honey you're preaching to the choir. literally all im saying is it's clear to see why a large number of people complain. I still think they should git gud or whatever, but can see where they're coming from

[abstract swallow]

Honestly I'm not opposed to how dangerous the new skeles are
I just wish they didn't have DS2 levels of tracking and would stop switching targets mid swing

[ebon idol]

Yeah. There needs to be some consistency with counterplay. The sniper skeletons sometimes hitting you when walking around them and sometimes not is really annoying.

[hazy tulip]

This PT mob aggro was weird. sometimes skeltons wouldnt aggro at all when you get close, especially bow and crossbow skeles. Real annoying since you want them to shoot first thing so you can dodge it and then go in.

[abstract swallow]

The CrossBones just need a slight delay with a sound cue when they shoot, and for aggro to be un-f*cked

[ebon idol]

Rogues in ruins completely abusing target dropping of unreachable enemies is what made me crazy.

[abstract swallow]

Having a crossbow skele either refuse to aggro without being hit, or aggro before LoS made them incredibly hard to pull without ranged options

[drifting perch]

this, this, all of my this. take the updoot kind stranger

[ebon idol]

Pulling all dire wolves and jumping up a ledge to make them target your enemies. They were better than bards in that regard.

[hazy tulip]

I would have a shield in their face, they dont shoot, so i hit em myself, and i get insta headshot by that mofo.

[lone crescent]

Haven't you tried crouching for crossbow skelleis?

[abstract swallow]

I had a Rogue close a secret door behind himself in Cage, then instantly get clapped through the noncollision part of the wall just above it in one shot at full HP

[hazy tulip]

if ur running sideway you most likely wont get hit, we are talking about the weird aggro delay sometimes

[ebon idol]

Wisps shooting through walls was also infuriating.