suggestion-discussion

[obtuse lichen]

my friend got oneshoted 2 times while playing on the wizard and around 4 times while playing on the rogue

[rugged pilot]

Elite I will believe

Basic crossbow 1shotting default sounds like nonsense.

[real trellis]

one time I went from ruins to crypt and it put me in a small room with a crossbow skeleton which instantly headshot me lol

[obtuse lichen]

Its not

[lone crescent]

@rugged pilot there's a video on reddit of a Ranger getting 1shotted

[real trellis]

I had about half my health and a helmet on barb and I went down like a sack of bricks

[abstract swallow]

yeah, Elite hits hard enough to drop any default except Barbarian
because for some reason they don't only give him a plate helmet but also more AR than a starting Fighter

[rugged pilot]

No offence but you lied about me about 10 messages ago, I won't take your opinion on it

[obtuse lichen]

Lied about what

[granite plinth]

If you take anything off base kit, you will get one shot by crossbow skeleton yeah

[rugged pilot]

Yeah but if you wear full default clothes you aren't getting oneshotted by crossbow

which people are claiming

[obtuse lichen]

its not my problem if you simply cant read or count

[rugged pilot]

You are just a lying troll mate

[real trellis]

AR from starting gear is so low as to be completely worthless

[obtuse lichen]

yeah i like to troll hardstuck people sorry

[rugged pilot]

Yes in the exception of hats with headshot reduction.

If you are naked headshots will do massive damage

I have no sympathy to naked players that get oneshotted by crossbow skele, wear hat

[real trellis]

2.5% headshot resist??? ehhhhhh

[rugged pilot]

When the guy earlier was like "Make the skele crossbow do 4-5 less damage"

Thats like 2.5% of the damage

He wants to live through skele crossbow oneshot while naked

[real trellis]

I would need to know the exact damage that a crossbow skeleton can do

[abstract swallow]

I know you can survive it with Leather Cap on Wizard, I don't know about full default kit
I made a habit of buying caps on Wizard, so I don't have many anecdotes of getting hit without one

[rugged pilot]

This is why no offence, I just say skill issue

Dodge it, because its easy. Or just wear hat

[obtuse lichen]

you can survive but 70 damage in the head is not okay by any means

[granite plinth]

Wizards have only 75 hp, at very low AR values having 25 armor gives about 20% damage resistance, so it makes sense why it kills when you take any armor off base kit

[real trellis]

Uh for 2.5% to block 5 damage the incoming damage would need to be 200

[rugged pilot]

So the liars saying you get 1shotted by crossbow in default were lying

You either miss health or took off base gear

[obtuse lichen]

you get oneshoted

[lone crescent]

How much is headshot multiplier?

And how much hs reduction has grey wiz hat?

[upper sonnet]

Check the wiki they got the Xbow skellies damage

[granite plinth]

Grey hat has like 5AR and no headshot reduction

[rugged pilot]

Skeleton crossbowman: 50/68/86

Wizard hp is 75hp

[real trellis]

Where?

[upper sonnet]

it's like 50 something at grey iirc https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Monsters#Monsters Headshot is 50% so that's 75 damage headshot

[rugged pilot]

Only nightmare Crossbow skelly can 1shot wizard, and thats with base gear

[obtuse lichen]

hs multiplier is 1.5 i think

[lone crescent]

Headshot deals 75, base Wiz has 75 hp, it's impossible to get oneshotted

[upper sonnet]

Red xbow skelly can too. But yeah if the Wizard took like any damage they're dead

[rugged pilot]

12.5% reduction hat

[lone crescent]

Cause you have some armor

[obtuse lichen]

lets go 5 hp survival

[real trellis]

I think running around naked is the meta as a low level wizard

[rugged pilot]

yeah but its not a 1shot from full hp, like the liars were saying it was.

There was like 5 people in here lying saying it was a garunteed 1shot full hp with base gear

[lone crescent]

He had some missing hp or the mob was elite

[obtuse lichen]

really healthy for the game

[rugged pilot]

So its a skill issue.

Don't run around naked or if you do, dodge it and git gud

[obtuse lichen]

bro stop talking about the skill everyone know that you are the god

[rugged pilot]

You can't take all armor off and then cry that the game needs to be balanced for naked wizard.

[upper sonnet]

If you're missing 5 HP tho from not full healing that last pixel of your Health Bar

[granite plinth]

Basically if you take anything off base kit, yeah, you get 1-shot.

[rugged pilot]

And then you remember you can crouch under it and take 0 damage every time with a slight bit of mechanical skill

[upper sonnet]

If you're full naked remember you take +10% damage if you have 0 AR too.

[obtuse lichen]

omg i cant anymore

[rugged pilot]

omg guys I cant anymore

You are right and I have no retort.

[real trellis]

Right?

[obtuse lichen]

this guy needs to have a coach role

[rugged pilot]

When you tried to lie and spread misinformation to get a skeleton nerfed but the wiki got you rumbled

[real trellis]

He'd fit right into the FFXIV mentor system

[rugged pilot]

Not suprised you are a weeb

[real trellis]

#d-and-d-suggestions message not just no, but hell no lmao. If you get caught with your pants down as a ranger that's your just desserts for being careless

[rugged pilot]

Negate rangers only weakness and give him a get-out-of-jail-free card

[real trellis]

Also you can use a spear dude, try it out

[obtuse lichen]

nah we wins survives every raid unlike me having 80% rate

[abstract swallow]

I see we are spreading around the modern Rogue class design.

[real trellis]

Bro you're in the discord for a game made by a bunch of koreans, so why is one flavor of asian cool and another not

[rugged pilot]

Almost like the rogue is literally supposed to have it

[real trellis]

I eagerly await you bringing up the cringe minority of the XIV community as if it applies to every player though

[rugged pilot]

All weebs are trash but thats not a chat I will continue here

[trim maple]

crossbow skeleton haters when they remember the "a" and "d" keys exist

[real trellis]

So what makes it cool to play games made by Koreans? Do you think Koreans are superior to Japanese?

[rugged pilot]

or crouch, or walls, or wearing your hat

[lone crescent]

Bruh...

[rugged pilot]

We can still be friends, I just dislike your ruination of Japanese culture

[real trellis]

If playing a video game makes me a weeb, does playing this not make you a koreaboo?

[obtuse lichen]

you can marry each other

[real trellis]

Yeah you two are perfect for each other lol

[trim maple]

honestly if the new skeletons could be moved to deeper floors it'd be ok but dont nerf em i like the difficulty

[lone crescent]

Lol no

[obtuse lichen]

yes

[rugged pilot]

Ya the new skeletons are tough but thats why I like them

It immediately splits the chaff in teamates, you queue up with randoms and can see who respects the AI's space or gets destroyed by crossbow or axe

[real trellis]

an audio cue would be nice, aside from that they're very manageable, just not reactable if you don't see it coming

[rugged pilot]

Every AI kicks your shit in if you don't see them at all. But thats awareness

[trim maple]

yea alot of ppl are just skill issueing hard bcuz they cant just run in as fighter while their cleric heals all the dmg anymore

[rugged pilot]

Or are running from teams on low HP and die at like 40% to crossbow skele

[real trellis]

not every AI can dome you for 60-70 dmg with no audio cue from across a dark room

[rugged pilot]

the skele crossbow can. So stop running into dark rooms there could be one in and check it first

[trim maple]

pretty sure there's a max aggro range thats smaller than the entire room and respects walls

[lone crescent]

Yeah that will be a problem in the future when they will add mob randomization, right now you can just remember crossbow mobs positions tbh

[rugged pilot]

Naw there was aggro through walls but the skele crossbows do make grunts like the regular skele archers

usually, doesn't aggro through walls

[trim maple]

oh dam

[timber shore]

how would yall feel about an AH/player shops but no player-player trading? (outside of the game obviously like you can sitll drop items on the ground) Solves RMT to some extent, and also big streamers getting an unfair advantage for free

[rugged pilot]

last playtest only things were alerting through walls

[weak monolith]

Yeah i feel like the crossbow skeltons were only a problem for me like once or twice when i was just completely unware of my surroundings.

[rugged pilot]

Not gonna be a thing, devs want to include player interactive trading and NOT an auctionhouse system

they dont want a WoW style AH or Runescape GE where you just click boxes and are done

They want people to talk and interact with eachother

[trim maple]

honestly i dont think streamers getting an advantage is that big of an issue either, ppl kind of overreact about that imo

because you also have the drawback of being able to get stream sniped, which i think is a fair tradeoff for all that good stuff

[lone crescent]

I honestly prefer a Tarkov style market where you buy things at fixed price from a list

[timber shore]

🤔 i never talk in trades, other than asking for the price if it wasn't listed otherwise. Haggling is usually a waste of time.

[lone crescent]

@golden sparrow torch does more light in a larger area, lantern is worst

[timber shore]

yeah but what about RMT? i think the best argument for disabling trading is that it is a really effective tool at limiting RMT

[rugged pilot]

Thats not to do with me, devs said this in Q & A a while ago

[timber shore]

yeah, i know. I wonder if they'll change their minds if RMT gets as bad as Tarkov or something (would be ashame to let it get that bad in the first place though)

[golden sparrow]

But taking up a weapon slot is usually not worth the extra light

[rugged pilot]

They could just auto censor certain things used by RMTers in chat, so they can't possibly advertise that

[trim maple]

honestly rmt will not affect the game as much as ppl think, and the devs likely will never be able to 100% stop it. it will just be some shady side thing that idiots can buy into if they feel like wasting their money

[abstract swallow]

Just don't let items be re-traded until they've been extracted. Throttles RMT hard and exposes it to much easier to report/monitor channels.

[rugged pilot]

RMT doesn't usually involve items. Its real money for GP

[abstract swallow]

It still cuts down on the primary source of GP, trade bots, and makes gold sellers and their sources easier to track.

[rugged pilot]

Yeah, automod for things that flag certain words and phrases would throttle it

the game being paid will also make it less common, because banned accounts have to purchase the game again

[abstract swallow]

Most RMT is organized outside of the game, but those things will also help.

[rugged pilot]

Yeah but devs can't do anything about that

[grizzled falcon]

The reality is rmt is going to happen and most likely a third party website tool will be developed that allows people to list items they want to sell and also bid on items they want to purchase, because the current trading system is frankly quite bad

Even with it happening I think people are seriously blowing it out of proportion. I really fail to see how it will cause any real issue. A very small percentage of players will actually want to do it anyway, and you can just as easily become overgeared by manipulating the market and getting gold to fund those purchases

The problem with RMT and P2W in most games is that the money gets you an otherwise unobtainable advantage, but in the case of this game... it's the same gear anyone else might have. You're just saving yourself time and effort by purchasing it. And maybe that would matter if this were a game where you face the same people over and over and the guy you're going up against is able to constantly refresh his gear, but this isn't that kind of game. It's random lobbies

The real issue people should actually he concerned about with these things are suspicious third party actors that utilize such practices to steal card information and hack accounts

[lucid root]

stock loadout only game mode

[latent rock]

I see this game as a RMTer's wet dream. Completely open trading with no consequence, frequent customers who have lots of money to burn and not enough skill to keep those items, great player numbers aka more customers. If I were an RMTer I'd be using hacks left and right to farm gold and hack accounts. This game would put Tarkov to shame in terms of money earned for the RMT industry

[abstract swallow]

RMT will exist as long as there is incentive for it, that much is certain, but you can't blame people for being very concerned about it and trying to get ahead of it, especially since many of the most prolific DaD players come from other Extraction games which have had notoriously bad track records with RMT and the cheating it encourages, or from MMOs where high-end communities are disproportionately affected by RMT and associated services.

[grizzled falcon]

And there is no way to fix that without fundamentally changing the core gear system of the game

I've suggested ways to help curb it before and people acted like I was an apologist

[latent rock]

Right, and Tarkov has been trying to fight it for years without much effect. It's unfortunately just part of the game. I still plan on playing and having fun but the moment I see my lobbies fill up with hackers and RMTers I'm 100% out

[grizzled falcon]

Imo the best way to combat it is allow rmt through the game itself and impose limitations and caps to it. The vast majority of people who would use that kind of service would rather go through the limited system than unregulated third parties

I think the hackers would be the real issue, I think people buying gear isn't worth any concern

[abstract swallow]

That would greatly diminish the incentive, but I'm not sure how you'd implement such a system without severely compromising the core gameplay loop.

[latent rock]

The venn diagram between hackers and RMTers is almost a circle I imagine

[grizzled falcon]

I think they'd have to use an AH system which they don't want to do. But again the reality is that an AH system will be made for them on a website if they don't. Look at PoE

[abstract swallow]

You'd very quickly run into a significant issue of difficult to start or gear-dependent classes being money-based, at least in the eyes of the community.

[lucid root]

difference is an in game AH your items sit in the auction house, third party your items would sit in a stash, best part of trade chat is you can immediately undercut people and get rid of your items quickly

[wraith frigate]

. Do you think its a case where they know that RMT will persist, so they make a framework in game to deal with RMT to ensure it isn't exploited?

[abstract swallow]

Using PoE as an example is like using EFT as a counterexample, both were designed to profit off of RMT to an extent.

[grizzled falcon]

Worst part of trade chat is I'm not playing the game. I would literally prefer any other system to sitting in a spam chat looking for gear while I actively don't participate in the fun part of the game

[latent rock]

even more worse part is you can make more money by playing the market instead of playing the game

[grizzled falcon]

That's any game with a market ever

[lucid root]

the tradeoff is it makes the game way easier, try progressing as wizard without trade

[grizzled falcon]

Sounds like a problem with wizard. Imo that's a class design failure

[lucid root]

we can go back to the before times if you want when we one shot everyone

[grizzled falcon]

I think the whole gear system needs some work, specifically how certain stats generate... help curb the gear reliability issue and how some gear just makes you completely immune to lower geared players, but that's a whole other discussion... idk, there's multiple things going on that culminate into a bigger problem but the solutions aren't great. It's about shat you can live with

[rugged pilot]

Almost like we are in an early playtest, nowhere near EA that is lucky to even have trading to begin with

[grizzled falcon]

I think everyone here understands that but we can't play the game rn so we are going to talk in a 30 second slow chat about problems for the future instead

Because we are bored and there is nothing else to do

[abstract swallow]

Agreed, gear scaling being linear is leading to items being very weak, very strong, or just useless vessels for stat boosts.

[lucid root]

someone get kripparrian in here, the rpg guru

[grizzled falcon]

Flat stats on gear need to be much rarer imo, especially flat damage increases

[rugged pilot]

hearthstone reference 💣 👑

[lucid root]

for real he'd be able to break down everything wrong with the stats/scaling system in about 5 minutes

[abstract swallow]

I don't think it's a matter of rarity, but adding slot-based limitations. Just make things only show up on certain equip slots. Damage on weapons and jewelry, % resist on chest and head, etc

[latent rock]

it's flat dmg and percentage based DR going up to 95%, thats the main offenders, dont need a 5 min video to explain

[lucid root]

i'd still watch it

vegan math is superior

[grizzled falcon]

There's multiple ways to do it, but the culprit is the same

[shell token]

Just placed a suggestion to remove mini map (why should adventurers have a GPS?)... we could have an item to work in a similar way, but which a smaller scope and range... I think we could improve the feeling of being lost in the dungeons...

[grizzled falcon]

I didn't even know this service existed. Considering that, I think it shows that it doesn't matter whether or not there is a mini map, because as you just stated, there is a third party tool you can use instead

[lone crescent]

Why you want realism in a D&D based game?

[shell token]

it is not realism... the subject here is to improve the feeling of being lost

[cobalt walrus]

i downvoted i like the map

[lone crescent]

It doesn't matter cause at certain points you will learn the map by memory so minimap or not is the same

The map is still a must have cause you need to see the zone shrinking

[shell token]

zone shrinking could be shown there instead of the map itself

[lone crescent]

Ok but then what's the difference? You play a month and know every corner of the map by memory anyway and map becomes almost useless

It isn't even that detailed btw, the map alone is still useless

[lucid root]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
light orb?

[abstract swallow]

If they removed the Swarm, or had a weekly new/psuedorandonly generated map, I could see that working, but it clashes with the idea of static dungeons you can master and the swarm/extraction mechanics.

[lone crescent]

That's actually a good suggestion, some kind of flask as consumable

[glacial sphinx]

It's an already kind of niche wizard spell. Shouldn't give it to everyone

[smoky yoke]

we love casting light orbs

[lone crescent]

Light orb have infinite uses a consumable take space and is... well consumable

[rough hemlock]

Never saw anyone using the light orb had no idea it even existed

[lone crescent]

Two tiles vertical or horizontal and that's fine

[lucid root]

Flashbang out

[lone crescent]

Right now the only effective 2 counters to stealth are light orb and Judgement, any other class need to avoid the fight

[quick blade]

You can also pickpocket stealthed rogue

[abstract swallow]

Stealth doesn't need a great deal of counters, since it's largely a preparation and not an active defense. Light Orbs would be best though.

[tulip hill]

@rough hemlock your suggestion for a throwable that would break stealth; damage already breaks stealth so doesn't the existing Molotov and Oil Lamps already do that?

[abstract swallow]

If it could be retrieved, it would have a purpose.

Id especially like if it casually drifted in a direction until it hit something, so you could illuminate across an area to a destination.

[lone crescent]

Yeah but light orbs can by used only by wizard

[tulip hill]

idk, that seems like too much of a hard counter for anyone trying to use invis pots or hide

[lone crescent]

Depends only on the rarity of the item if is op or not

[abstract swallow]

People already eschew blue pots and normal lights, so I don't think it'd be a common occurrence outside of total rogue domination metas.

[tulip hill]

"people already eschew blue pots and normal light"
??? since when?

[lone crescent]

?

[leaden lantern]

hello, how to make a suggestion ?

[grizzled falcon]

Does stealth really need some kind of hard counter? Invisibility is really only used in 2 cases from what I've seen, 1. Laying an ambush, which you can't really counter any because it's an ambush, and 2. Wizard/rogues pulling a bamboozle in the middle of combat, where you don't really have an opportunity to break stealth anyway because its usually very quick. Why do we need some kind of item dedicated to breaking stealth, especially when, if you already know where they are, you can just hit them

[grizzled falcon]

#1048762118255673428

[leaden lantern]

thanks you

[abstract swallow]

When they're broke, lazy, overconfident, or some mixture of the three. I've seen people go into HR that refuse to use consumables outside of healing.

[junior solstice]

dangit, my suggestion exceeds the limit that you can type... is there no other way to send it

[grizzled falcon]

Everybody I run into is using like 20 prot and health pots

[tulip hill]

it would be fairly useless against wizard because the duration is relatively low, but rogue was potent and popular this last playtest so everyone is making suggestions to nerf rogues even in aspects that aren't the problem
I can understand people being upset about double jump but idk why they are trying to make the sneaky guy less sneaky

[grizzled falcon]

Yea I agree, double jump mixed with ruins was a nasty combo but stealth is not in any way the problem lol. In fact I actually think stealth is in a pretty good spot

[tulip hill]

time to put it in a text document and see what you can condense

[grizzled falcon]

And I don't think we need counter play to invis pots

[quick blade]

double jump with rogue speed means rogue no even playing the same game as everyone else. And rogue with crossbow will never be balanced

[tulip hill]

yeah, with the changes to what does and doesn't break stealth I think its in a pretty good spot compared to PT4

[abstract swallow]

I can agree with this, it's not something that will really need a counter until more classes have access to it.

[tulip hill]

crossbow realistically is just an easier to land but slower firing throwing knife
the problem really just comes down to the rogue being able to pick their fights too easily on the ruins
while they could just remove double jump, I will continue to advocate the idea of simply requiring a nearby wall to use it

[junior solstice]

yeah, it's 2 pages long, nothing to condense really

[lone crescent]

Wall jump with cooldown will definitely be better, this and and invisible ceiling to stop Rogues from going into the sky

[grizzled falcon]

"Hey chat gpt, can you take this suggestion I wrote and rewrite it to fit within the specified character count without changing the idea behind it?"

[junior solstice]

I wonder if i can post a google doc link as a suggestion instead

[tulip hill]

well requiring a nearby wall would get rid of many of the jumps that were possible on the ruins
like the middle pillar to the wall, no longer possible
the stairs in the north room to the wall, no longer possible
many of the jumps from wall to wall around the edge, no longer possible

[lone crescent]

The rouge shouldn't use a crossbow imo, hand crossbow should be a bard and ranger thing

Cause bard is not very strong in combat and benefits a lot from crossbow while ranger can sacrifice power for speed

[glacial sphinx]

I would separate them if you have multiple suggestions because I find that when I see multiple suggestions in one I usually downvote if there is a single bad one among them. And others do the same

[junior solstice]

Aye, noted, i'll see how I can categorise them then

[grizzled falcon]

Eh I think rogue with crossbow is fine. Imo the main problem with rogue rn is just overall mobility

[lone crescent]

My argument is that rouge is powerful enough without crossbow and doesn't need even more power

While ranger could benefit an alternative and bard is not that strong so crossbow is fine

[tulip hill]

what if they made it a perk like Ranger's Spear Mastery

[lone crescent]

Yeah that can work too

[grizzled falcon]

Idk you're acting like hand crossbow is the meta pick and it makes them OP. I just don't really see that being the case. Does it apply poison? That can be annoying but I'd say that's because of how poison scales more than anything

[lone crescent]

Ofc it apply poison

[grizzled falcon]

I mean imo I don't think poison should scale at all given how the rest of the gear scaling works

[lone crescent]

1 bolt can hit for half hp

[glacial sphinx]

I think last playtest rogue was maybe slightly weak but I feel like for some reason people were convinced it needed huge buffs when it really wasn't that bad at all.

Imo Rogue was nowhere near as far behind as for example Bard was now and the stats show that as well. And I dont even think Bard needs as many buffs as rogue got. Hand crossbow needs to not apply weakpoint, rupture etc. Double Jump needs to be straightup removed or get a serious nerf. The helmet with 0 movespeed penalty and baseline +1 to all stats is also kind of ridiculous

[lone crescent]

Bard just needs more sheet music and better lute

Also more perks and skills

[grizzled falcon]

Yea if bard songs actually did something to players

[lone crescent]

In combat he's not weak at all, he is just an incomplete class

[glacial sphinx]

Yea for sure Bard should and will get some more perks and songs, and probably certain song effects and perks should endure a little beyond their playtime.

[grizzled falcon]

Idk man he's pretty useless in combat. The heal is the only good part

[vivid warren]

thoughts #d-and-d-suggestions message ?

[abstract swallow]

Rogue buffs were absolutely wild this playtest, not only making lots of small balance and mechanic changes in their favour but giving them ranged options that absolutely should not be able to apply their debuffs. And that other tiny, very well balanced addition we aren't going to talk about.

[grizzled falcon]

Maybe if accelerando was just a flat speed increase and didn't need to build up over a few seconds

[lone crescent]

Movespeed too and they will add more songs

It needs like 2 seconds to proc 3 times

[grizzled falcon]

2 seconds is an eternity when the stacks reset every cast

[abstract swallow]

Quickplay being near-mandatory for Bard was incredibly awkward.

[lone crescent]

I think songs duration is fine, it should be upgraded by higher rarity instruments

[grizzled falcon]

Quickplay?

[tulip hill]

The skill that lets you perfect play a song I believe

[grizzled falcon]

That skill was useless af lol, I can get perfects every time the rhythm game is a joke

[lone crescent]

Let's say the movespeed goes from 8 seconds to like 12 or 15, you play the go fight with rapier and you are fast af

[abstract swallow]

Intentionally missing notes to get effects out faster.

[grizzled falcon]

OK, yea that's what I thought you meant. I agree, super awkward.

[lone crescent]

How is quickplay mandatory?

[tulip hill]

wait so what was the skill that perfect played a song? (I only played bard as a meme with friends)

[glacial sphinx]

That still played it at normal speed

[tulip hill]

gross, why would you ever?

[grizzled falcon]

Encore, and it sucked

[lone crescent]

Really all it takes is learning songs and a decent sense of rythm to play perfect

[abstract swallow]

Encore.
The fact that it didn't just let you repeat a song for free while doing other things seemed to defeat the whole thing it was going for.

[grizzled falcon]

There is no penalty to peacemaking/discord from playing badly so if you just get the first half perfect you can play the second half super early and it would finish faster and have the same effect

[lone crescent]

The perfect is very very forgiving

[tulip hill]

when you miss a note it skips the song up to that note, so you can play the first few notes perfect then skip the rest of the song by spamming misses

[glacial sphinx]

Yeah but he's saying the perfect is actually worse than playing the first half right and then skipping through the second half

[grizzled falcon]

If encore instant cast a song... that'd be useful, I think. But it doesn't

[honest knot]

I think we should give rogue a triple jump

[grizzled falcon]

Why triple jump? Just give him wings, he can fly now

[tulip hill]

totally

[honest knot]

👍 otto approved

[glacial sphinx]

If you triple jump the batwing picks you up for a free extract

[lone crescent]

Yeah instant cast is a cool thing, like a super heavy strumming and it's done

[tulip hill]

"Yeah, I played the song with perfect rhythm, its just at 500 bpm"

[lone crescent]

Actually he can fast strum all the chords of the song for almost instant casting, songs with more chords need slightly more time

[tribal patio]

I have a dream zweihander can get a overhead

[tulip hill]

@autumn flare so like a main hand short sword? (without the stab)

[autumn flare]

Yes, a bit like

[tulip hill]

cool 👍

[tribal patio]

Ive been saying we should have a training map since the first playtest

[trim maple]

ppl really downvoting my suggestion like they want the 0.9% stat boosts to stay in the game

or magic bonuses on fighter gear lol

[autumn flare]

I sent you photo of examplary saber i would like to see in game xd
The saber itself has millions of different types

[tulip hill]

yee, I'm much more of scimitar fan myself when it comes to curved blades

[autumn flare]

That's cool aswell

[tulip hill]

oh! or a kopesh (I think that's how you spell it)

[glacial sphinx]

#d-and-d-suggestions message a lot of people didn't like this suggestion for a song. Kinda wondering if its because of the specific buff or if they don't like the mechanic, or if maybe it was misunderstood in general

[autumn flare]

That actually could have the coolest combo if they did it well but it comes a little bit too far from medieval Europe style

[autumn flare]

Personally i think this buff would be too strong especially when it comes to 2 low/basic gear groups fight

[tulip hill]

kopesh are a bronze age Egyptian weapon so its a bit far off from medieval Europe, yeah

[glacial sphinx]

That's fair, I compared it to Jokester I guess in terms of party contribution, but I think ideally should've left the exact buff up in the air so people could focus on the mechanic.

[lone crescent]

I think the buff lasts too much time and incentives passive gameplay by the bard

I see the class as buffing teammates then go on fighting, I don't want bard to be a passive buffer

[autumn flare]

Yes that's another thing, it should be like 15 sec max

[glacial sphinx]

I think I failed to convey the main idea then, which is that you could actually play something for enemies that gives them an incentive to leave a solo bard alone as well

[tulip hill]

"incentivizes passive gameplay"
laughs in chain casting peace with 3 bards and dancing at fully geared players

[lone crescent]

The buff itself too is too much for me, added to passive perk war song, wich gives +3 attack power, maybe is too much

[glacial sphinx]

Fair enough, the idea actually wasn't about the specific buff. The main idea was something you could play, that would buff other players (not necessarily only your own teammates) and they would be incentivized not to attack you so they could keep that buff. So the Bard could play solo and avoid being attacked by playing this song for other players. I felt it kinda fit his theme somehow

[lone crescent]

Make 2 bards to chain peacekeeper and a ranger or wizard far away for free kills

[rugged pilot]

We dont

Counter to stealth is spells, throwables that put fire on the ground

[queen lotus]

Or just swinging wildly in the vague direction. Works most of the time.

[tulip hill]

and ranger's spread shot ability with a tiny bit of luck

[rugged pilot]

Well with next patch that will make your fighter / barb tired and need to sleep

[tulip hill]

@cyan flame I think the issue with DR is less the amount of you can get and more the scaling to get there. Fighter and to a lesser extend Cleric are the only people who can get that high of a DR value. If they adjusted the curve to make armor ratting at lower values more impactful it would make 60-90% DR less of an outlier while also reducing the prevalence of the naked meta (if only by a small amount)

[queen lotus]

it's not armor that's the issue, you can only feasibly get to about 60% give or take stacking as much armor as possible.
It's % Physical DR enchants that stack additively.

[cyan flame]

You make a very good point. I agree with you

[cyan flame]

Yeah that's what I was thinking of. The enchants

[tulip hill]

ah, fair
well they have said they aren't super concerned with fine tuning balance atm since its so early so I'm sure they will adjust enchantment values later

[grizzled falcon]

Yea balancing is for the eventual beta I'd imagine, unless it's something glaringly bad

[autumn flare]

Spiderman naked rogues flying on ruins? xd

It is even cringe to watch, dont even need to talk about balance

[abstract swallow]

Yeah, it's difficult to invest much effort in balancing while you're still implementing core mechanics.

[minor canyon]

The effect of the shoes should not be an increase in movement speed, but a reduction in movement speed reduction.
That way nakedness would not be meta.

[lone crescent]

Yeah but then when you are geared you can barely move

[glacial sphinx]

Nah it wouldnt change anything for geared players, its not a bad idea

It basically means that boots dont benefit you unless you are wearing some item with a movement penalty, which is then undone by the boots

But I don't know if its necessary either, they can just make the armor or stats on pieces worth the movement penalty a little more, add like +1 knowledge to the wizard hat and people will use it.

[abstract swallow]

It's likely that equipment's static movement speed penalties will be swapped out for the weight system when it's added, so boots having penalty-reduction or increased limits like that wouldn't be too surprising.

[dense sand]

yeah so far everyone who has talked about this has yet to make it happen or got in some kind of trouble

[lone crescent]

They will try weight and backpack at some point but i think they will remove them after

[graceful frost]

pretty sure backpacks will stick. kinda needed to have space to go through 3 levelks

[abstract swallow]

There's no way containers/variable slots and weight won't come, the game has an entire core attribute based around them.

[quick blade]

Weight just like fall damage will make the game less fun.

[trail forge]

Feature creep isn't healthy for any game. I don't think we can say for certainty what will or won't make it to the final build.

Over complexity < fun. The devs are aware of this. And assume they are aware that pt4 or even 3 would have netted them millions of dollars without any of those extra features that serve no purpose other than to provide a chore-like hinderance.

[abstract swallow]

"feature creep isn't healthy for the game"
It's a good thing bags and weight are a part of the original scope of the game and are central parts of it's emphasis on looting and dungeon crawling.

[grizzled falcon]

Well, I'll say this, the bottom of the inventory literally says "weight 0/0" or something along those lines

[abstract swallow]

The devs redesigned the entire in-raid UI and even changed the inventory screens, and they left the bag slots and weight bar... What, as a joke?
Do people really think their looting game isn't going to have inventory mechanics?

[trail forge]

It's not that central if they took the time to add whole class, a dozen maps, and completely overhaul any number of other features before implementing them.

Besides, after the horrible torch changes, we don't know what they do or do not feel comfortable with as far as similarities to p3 goes

[grizzled falcon]

Im not sure how much weight will change things anyway. I imagine the heaviest items will be gear pieces and as it stands it's hardly ever worth picking those up unless you're going to wear them or they are good enough to sell on the market/stash for later. Selling gear to merchants nets barely any gold compared to treasure taking up the same space

Weight will probably at best limit consumable usage

But we will see

[abstract swallow]

Probably a soft limit on supplies and a way for Str-oriented classes to normalize mobility.

[trail forge]

That's going to be real unfortunate if they penalize one of the most important aspects for not reaching a certain threshold in a very specific stat.

Only time will tell though

I didn't even think about two other implications:

The only players likely to always be moving at full speed will be the ones with inventories full of consumes, the ones that found collectable-dense rooms, or ones with nothing in their inventory at all.

I wonder what sort of impact that would have on the already tedious and time consuming trade house function, if everyone suddenly started extracting with a significantly lower % of the armor they came across. I certainly wouldn't take a run speed penalty for a piece of mid-level armor I can't even use.

[abstract swallow]

Lowering the amount of lootbloat would be good, especially for high-end equipment, and especially when high-rarity weapon bases are so potent and accessible.

[lilac silo]

The game is foundationally based on looting. Any changes to make inventory management and looting more tedious should be avoided at all costs.

[quick blade]

If highroller had better loot last playtest we would have seen less full god tier sets in normal. Normal actually dropped better loot.

[lone crescent]

It's literally in the dev QnA, they said they want to test weight in the future but they still didn't decided if they want to add or not.

Same with backpack, they said they don't plan to add them but they will maybe do some testing

[sudden glacier]

no one likes weight, everyone hates weight, weight sucks

[storm pelican]

Weight would imo ruin the game for everyone. What’s the point of looting chests if you can only hold the weight of one kill. It’s pointless

[empty patio]

[abstract swallow]

Not starting the playtests with weight implemented was a mistake, there is going to be more whining about it than when they added ammo

[sudden glacier]

What are your suggestions for double jump IMO mine was pretty decent but people didnt liked it

[abstract swallow]

-Slip timer on most campable surfaces
-Reasonable cooldowns, can't be used while in hitstun/pain
-Take it out of the game until they're ready to add more basic and class-specific mobility mechanics

[lilac silo]

Either
A: ensure that places that rogues can double jump to are very deliberate in design/have potential slower routes for other classes to use
or
B: make it so ranged weapons can't be used with DJ equipped

[hollow wave]

Damn people really don't like my charger ability idea

[lilac silo]

are you the "shoulder charge" one from like 5 mins ago?

[wise vine]

It is objectively false to say barbarian isn't as powerful as other classes

[hollow wave]

Any class that's faster then barbarian usually dominates. Barbarian this update just felt so slow and bulky.

[cedar patio]

Throwing axes supremacy

[wise vine]

Rage gives you a 15% move speed buff, and you spawn with a ranged option that scales on your damage perks, not to mention being the only class that spawns wearing boots

[lilac silo]

The issue with the suggestion is that, well... Barbarian isn't slow and bulky, and it's kind of a big balance issue
They should be, but they aren't
Rage is to blame for that, and giving Barb even more mobility just looks out of touch

[abstract swallow]

Barbarian is still S tier, they just got hard countered when apart from their team by Rogue and their best supports were nerfed. Barb was BUFFED, but like in PT3 his counters were more relevant than he was.

[empty patio]

Barbs are tanky and deal massive damage

[cedar patio]

Yea barb with a charge can probably stomp basically anyone

[wise vine]

If you want to catch up to someone as barbarian with the current skillset they have, hit them with a francisca and achilies strike and they quite literally cant run away fast enough, not to mention if they do, you can smash doors down faster than they can open and close them, they arent getting away from you

[cedar patio]

Oohhh I completely missed out on that, had no idea abilities apply to throwables

[wise vine]

a stock francisa axe + achilies strike on a headshot will kill a default fighter in a single hit if they keep moving

[cedar patio]

pff

At least I now know what to do about archers as solo barb, stepped away from barb entirely this playtest but probably gonna give it another spin next time

[empty patio]

2-3 swings from a barb = dead wizard, rogue, ranger. 1 depending on the weapon.

[wise vine]

It will also kill any other class in a single hit except barb, funnily enough

[cedar patio]

Nobody likes auctions tho, sadge.

[wise vine]

Except cleric with their protection perks on iirc

[hollow wave]

Tbh I just wanna run charging and screaming at someone. If balanced heavily I think it would be cool.

[lilac silo]

that's already what Rage does

[wise vine]

that's what rage already kinda does haha yeah

[hollow wave]

Rage is more of a status effect and not an attack.

[wise vine]

you go RRRRAAAAGGHHH, and move 15% faster with 50% more strength

[empty patio]

It’s a buff

[cedar patio]

Yea it lacks the funny

[wise vine]

I dunno, I think jumping out of an invis potion screaming as a barb is very funny

[lilac silo]

Remove Rage's movespeed buff, turn it into a defense buff, and then add a linear charge to Barb or something?

[hollow wave]

How about if you make rage not effect the charge attack and add some debuffs. Maybe a 10% movement speed for 10 seconds after charging, during charge your left to right moment is heavily limited.

Make it easily punishable but still effective to people not prepared.

[abstract swallow]

Rage should be considered default kit for Barbs when making changes, it is both their primary (and pretty much sole source of) scaling and mobility.

[cedar patio]

A bit annoying how we have mandatory abilities

[lilac silo]

It's the biggest problem with Barb, and should probably be overhauled if we're looking to actually balance the class

[abstract swallow]

That's just the nature of the Perk-and-Skill system being so limiting.

[hollow wave]

Barb does feel a little strange as a class. A rework would be yo happen if a charge ability were to be introduced

[abstract swallow]

Barb needs to be redesigned from the ground up when Class Trainer releases, that's a fact.

[cedar patio]

Maybe there could be a few movement perks that exclude each other to make it possible to actually free up an active skill slot, like looking directly at a player gives you a movement boost and disables other movement buffs

[lilac silo]

I can think of several reasons why Barb is a problem, but I feel like it'd be too opinionated to make a video about it lmao

[abstract swallow]

Most of Barb's problem come from them being an underdesigned brick that unlike the other brick (Fighter) fits way, way too nicely into the Oneshot damage-stack meta.

[lilac silo]

I think most of Barb's problems come from their lack of weaknesses, or at least, that they have built-in solutions to their own weaknesses that make those weaknesses nonexistent

Their only true weakness is low Knowledge, but... they're not a caster so that literally doesn't matter at all.

Them slotting perfectly into damage-stacking wouldn't be an issue if they had weaknesses to compensate, methinks

[cedar patio]

Barb is supposed to be a "we ball" class, without blocking he either kills everyone while tanking damage or fails to do so but blocking sucks and the defence meta is getting either defence or movement buffs so that's the gimmick of basically every melee class

Except barbarian is the one who is supposed to and is designed to play without his own defence

[abstract swallow]

The issue with Barb covering his weaknesses isn't that he nullifies those weaknesses, it's that he only needs to do so to the absolute bare minimum.
He only needs to survive long enough to land a single hit in most cases, which will let him snowball into the rest of the team.
Fix damage stacking and gear scaling, and you turn a Barb steamroll into a Barb fight where those weaknesses can be exploited.

[wind wasp]

barb is supposed to be the class you do not want to tango with close range or get smoked. not the guy who spams you midrange with throwing axes

[lilac silo]

I suppose, but then they'd fall to the wayside compared to more sustainable builds
I'd rather them keep that high burst damage, but have it come at the cost of outplaying position, rather than just "Rage to get in for free"

It's like a grappler in a FG, they're only balanced because they struggle in neutral. Make a grappler good in neutral and you have a balance nightmare

[abstract swallow]

I don't disagree, but that just goes back to Barb being a very binary class. Either he can wipe teams with 0 effort and scales to the moon, or he doesn't and goes back to PT3 joke class tier.

[lilac silo]

He was as good in PT3 as he is now, people just didn't realize

[cedar patio]

One of the characters in Darkest Dungeon, Hellion, has a bunch of powerful abilities that reduce her own damage, maybe that could work for your thoughts on barb? So maybe he could be made a bit faster with a bit less damage but one of the perks would turn him into like the current barb but make him lose dps the longer a fight goes on
Actually rage could just debuff barb when it expires lol. That's basically what I was saying but one sentence.

[abstract swallow]

He was always good, people just slept on Franc and HMA. I was calling out Barb for being busted from day 1 of PT3, but Ranger/Wizard at the time made it hard to take seriously.

[lilac silo]

I think Barb could find ways to be an offensive tank without just being a get-in snowballer
Or maybe they COULD be a snowballer, but they have to earn their first hit to start the snowball
Think: Rage boosts STR and Def, and if they get a kill during the duration, they move faster/the duration resets

So the first kill isn't free, but once you get it, the snowball begins
A lot of their perks/skills are already designed like this (Morale Boost and Carnage and Blood Exchange)

[smoky yoke]

nice suggestions recently

[lilac silo]

Right now Rage isn't really a snowball skill, it's just a "get in and kill someone easily" skill, which certainly LEADS to snowballs but the risk doesn't suit the reward

[abstract swallow]

Rage needs to go, and be replaced by passive scaling mechanisms. It is too much of Barb's kit, and he needs other more specific engagement tools to replace it.

[smoky yoke]

something i'd like to see in future it is some sort of loadout manager where it simply saves your loadout
so that it will save your perks, skills, spells and even items (taken from the stash, if there aren't then it will simply load your spells, skills, perks)
it would be cool and a good qol change in better
so that it is possible to swap to different builds when needed

[cedar patio]

Yea make rage give movement speed boost and maybe damage I guess, make kills prolong all buffs on you (synergy with other snowball perks instead of being the only snowball barb will need), but when it expires you get debuffed for idk capped attack speed

[lilac silo]

Yeah, so long as it's on kill
Would fit more with Rage in DnD, pretty sure that's a buff that extends itself as you hit things

[cedar patio]

Also that one fighter active skill, perfect block I think, it makes your next block guaranteed to happen. What if it was a perk instead, maybe merged with some other perk even? Is there any reason to fill a slot for sprint or second wind with a parry assist? Unless you're running a longsword I guess

[lilac silo]

I'm not sure whether it works with longsword, but even if it does, all it really does is turn your next block into the fastest block anim (as if you'd blocked a dagger or fists)
Which you can already force by making the enemy hit your shield with the handle of their weapon
Not sure it's worth the skill slot at all

[abstract swallow]

Longsword block really needs to include the other half of the sword, at least as a sourspot block. It is ridiculous that it just doesn't exist at all, with no explanation.

Oh dang I forgot I wanted my next suggestion to be effect-specifix hit sfx
Guess I'll do that in the morning

[cedar patio]

Yea, like make one of the shield related perks apply this buff to you every 10 seconds after depleting it or something

Also maybe the shield bash should make the shield into a blocking surface during the animation so you can bash through enemy strike as counter attack, it felt a bit useless compared to the two mandatory fighter skills

[lilac silo]

Yeah, I thought it'd be cool if it worked like that but sadly it didn't

[abstract swallow]

A lot of the new stuff lacks its intuitive outcome, at least this playtest.

[hasty sedge]

why does alot of people not want more choice when fighting with melee weapons such as using diffrent attacks at your own choice?

[grizzled falcon]

Idk I'd say that learning your attack pattern and knowing it's strengths/weakness is just part of playing the game

[lilac silo]

I figure it's because people like the simplicity of the combat and don't want to overcomplicate things
That being said, there's definitely a few weapons that could use just an individual poking attack so they don't feel nearly as useless

Zwei comes to mind, although you CAN angle your camera to basically turn it into a "poke"

[hasty sedge]

all im saying is like when im using the a melee weapons that has their third attack being a poke i hate just waiting for 2 attacks standing in the open to then quickly snap on to the target to get the poke hit

[upper sonnet]

I think if there was like 2 or 3 combos you could switch between with a toggle that just use the swings from the 1st combo in a different order would be nice.

[lilac silo]

There's also an argument to be made that weapons that can't poke, can't do so because it's a deliberate weakness of the weapon
Falchion getting a poke/overhead anytime would make it better than it already is

[upper sonnet]

Full directional would be dumb though but some minor variance wouldn't add too much complexity but a lot more depth.

[lilac silo]

And one of the reasons the Rapier is as good as it is is because it's a poking weapon in the first place
It's certainly not an easy issue, though I do agree that the "nonpoking" weapons should maybe have an alt-fire that lets them at least function in doorways (like they gave the Maul)

[upper sonnet]

For the ones with non-standard pokes they should have a damage penalty like how the alt-fire for War Maul works

[hasty sedge]

i mean weapons that werent made with pokeing in mind such as the battle axes and falchions shouldnt probs have a poke but one should have the option to pick when to do overhand and side swipes and balance them in damage range and what not

[grizzled falcon]

Idk I think doing that kinda takes away from the concept of "favored terrain" that some weapons have. I feel like being locked into 1 ,or in the case of certain 2 handers, 2 patterns of attack presents an obstacle for the player that they have to adapt to and abuse, and do the same for their enemy's weapon

Weapons like the maul and zwei do a lot of damage but they also swing very wide so they are a threat to teammates but can also be outplayed using walls effectively. Just my thought

[hasty sedge]

i mean a zwei hander should always be slower to poke with then a spear or a long sword i just dislike the fact then when im fighting in doorways i deal no damage because i hit the wall 5 times in row because i was one milimeter to close to the wall and think some sort of choice to the attack order and choice of attacks overall would relieve that issue and perhaps make combat more interesting but overall i just think its kind of stupid that i have to go through 2 animations swinging in the air to get to the attack i want and then to snap to the target

[grizzled falcon]

That's my point though, you hitting the door/wall isn't a failing of the weapon, you're just in a bad position

[empty patio]

Goblin Slayer would never take a zweihander into the dungeon

[hasty sedge]

yeah thats true but there are moments when a poke is needed such as one occasion this rogue was hiding beneath a staircase and i had to swap weapon just to be able to hit him because of how tight the arena was, yes rare as fuck but it happends and its seems to simple to relieve or solve

[trim maple]

I want the funny bard pickpocket song even more now having played Bard

[hasty sedge]

ngl would be anoying af in teamfights with two bards spamming no attack and a third stealing

[trim maple]

Honestly that just sounds funny

[grizzled falcon]

That sounds like the rogue used the environment to his advantage and outplayed you. Idk man to each their own I guess but i feel like part of the fun of the combat for me is working with the moveset

[trim maple]

You cant steal hotbar items so you would still be able to follow them and kill them when they stop playing

[grizzled falcon]

In some cases the moveset is the best part of the weapon, sometimes it is the worst

[trim maple]

Which would inevitably happen for AI or other players

[hasty sedge]

but if i ask u alozar what weapons do you use as a fighter if you could picked anything

[grizzled falcon]

Longsword because I think in the current state everything is trash in comparison

[hasty sedge]

@trim maple its kind of a funny idea but at the same time i dont really think it fits the bard and seems to just be upgraded rogue skill

@grizzled falcon Thats my point, i also only use the longsword, i doubt there is any fighters that enjoy using other weapons as the only moments i switched weapons was when i had a massive bank of green falchions with good damage or a spear with higher damage

[grizzled falcon]

The only reason I use the longsword is the riposte

I don't care about the poke or anything. But the riposte with the defense perks in P5 was busted. Lightning speed counter attack headshot, tons of damage

I two tapped like everyone I fought

[hasty sedge]

oh i didnt even know it was a mechanic really i just thought it was the block for the sword, i gotta get better at blocking lol

[grizzled falcon]

Omg no its insane lol, look up oggieson on YouTube and watch some of his recent videos. If you aren't using the riposte mechanic with longsword you are missing the main feature of the weapon

[hasty sedge]

yeah i just used the longsword as i found it the most consistant and really good with the combo perk

[grizzled falcon]

Nah nah, you run defense perks and counterattack. They all apply to the parry and the riposte counts as a followup action so the first swing comes out like instantly

The first riposte swing will hit a barbarian in the face before the attack that was parried even finishes its animation, and it hits for quite a lot of damage. That being said, it isn't easy to be consistent, takes a lot of practice. Pretty high skill weapon imo

[abstract swallow]

Longsword Riposte really got carried hard by Shield Master last playtest, but it's nice to see Fighter get his toys shined up a little.

[hasty sedge]

i used the extra armor perk, less wight on armor, combo, and i dont remeber last but i used it with a fighter crossbow so no all weapons perk but ima tryout counterattack then

[grizzled falcon]

Shield master and the other defense perks are the most important. https://youtu.be/e6SIGnDLngU

[abstract swallow]

Combo Attack is a dead perk slot unless you're DWSurging or VERY low gear and need help PvEing.
It doesn't synergize with your other skills, and if you aren't killing in 3+ consecutive hits then 10% Power is not enough to make up for your severe skill/gear deficit.

[hasty sedge]

yeah kinda got that but idk i was a big noob before and took waaaayyyy too much damage from the ai and thats probs due to my missing of attack animations and overall using too heavy gear for my playstyle

[lilac silo]

Combo Attack would be better if it benefited the 2nd attack in a chain, instead of just the 3rd onwards
Good enough to be worth? I dunno, but certainly much better

[abstract swallow]

The fact that Fighter has to land 2 hits to get 3 seconds of a benefit most classes get for free (or better) is a very funny joke.

[grizzled falcon]

Fighter is in a weird spot because on one hand it was pretty good this last test thanks to longsword but on the other hand all the other builds require way more effort to reach the same level as other classes lol

Like the slayer thing

[lilac silo]

I love Slayer, perks that reward and incentivize alternate playstyles are great
It's probably not "balance" great, because it sacrifices one of Fighter's biggest strengths (armor), but it still is a great perk for those who want to dual-wield, and I think that kind of thing is better than just another "do the thing you already did but better" perk

[abstract swallow]

Even Longsword doesn't perform particularly well if the opponent understands how it works, and in scenarios where an opponent has an advantage against it (ie: any weapon that can out space it or cover the head and trade the riposte) it becomes one of the worst 2Hs in the game thanks to it's middling stats and moveset.

[grizzled falcon]

That's true I just think it can be frustrating to have to spec specifically into something only to come out as powerful as another class that can do it without perks

[lilac silo]

Basically Slayer good perk, Axe Specialist bad perk, in terms of quality of design

Both give +5 damage, but one's a lot better (better-designed, not better in terms of power) in terms of how it gives you that damage

[abstract swallow]

Even Slayer I'm not fond of, because it's only semi-conditional flat damage.
Perks that exist to prop up damage are part of the problem, and there's way more creative things you can do for combat bonuses than just damage.

[lilac silo]

I'd rather flat bonuses be rewarded creatively to sub-optimal playstyles than "just get 5 damage on the class of weapon that's already optimal"

[abstract swallow]

I agree that it's a step in the right direction. Ideally the Perk-and-Skill system is replaced, or at least made far more loose and open-ended, with the arrival of the Class Trainer.

[lilac silo]

Could be considered a 'crutch' to those playstyles, but being honest, those playstyles are never going to be better than "armor Fighter with longsword and sprint/second wind" so why not throw them some damage?

I just wonder what could be done for other classes in that department
It's pretty clear that there's an alternative Barb playstyle involving self-damage and snowballing, but I don't know what exists for the other classes

Maybe a Wizard perk that buffs melee attacks?

[abstract swallow]

It isn't the supporting of playstyles/archetypes I take issue with, it's the damage bonuses. Give me armor pen, attack speed, weight reduction, improved animations, more/less pain slowdown, resistances when attacking, etc
There's a million things they can do that aren't "take perk slot, you are now X closer to your oneshot".

[grizzled falcon]

The whole build system in the game rn feels designed around "max raw damage as high as possible"

[lilac silo]

I suppose, though it depends
Slayer is fine because any weapons you'd use with Slayer are not realistically ever going to one-shot no matter what you do

[abstract swallow]

Flat damage is a reasonable bonus in Slayer*'s case, and that's one of the reasons why.

[lilac silo]

Slayer, not Savage(?)

[storm tinsel]

bro some guy in suggestions made a suggestion that instead of using wipes, that there should be taxation in the game lmaooooo

personally I think its neccessary to region lock china

[somber wind]

100% is. Be it for the cheating or connection issues when connecting to western servers.

[abstract swallow]

This is entirely true, but we aren't ready for that conversation yet.

[storm tinsel]

im just suprised the suggestion had like 75 likes and only 2 dislikes so we arent gonna pretend that chinese players will hack the entire game away

there was already enough hackers this wipe alone, I also saw a person say that an auction house feature would really disable the RMT market and I agree

[somber wind]

Most of the well made cheats are Chinese then edited further by 3rd parties or based on knowledge learned from the Chinese hacking community.

It wouldn't stop the cheats from showing up on our side but it would slow the speed we'd see them in the west. China is also huge so more people that could be using it due to density (not saying Chinese cheat more, it's more so that Chinese density of people means that the sample size is larger and therefore the sub-pool of the cheaters is larger).

[storm tinsel]

and would stop the seemingly endless stream of cheaters from china

if theres 26ml ppl in australia and 1 billion in china, its pretty clear that china should be landlocked. if you get me?

[somber wind]

Yeah exactly that, it's purely density. China is also very well learned in computing so there is also more potential for hack developers among the sample group as well (albeit it's a sub group of the already sub group of hackers in general).

[vivid warren]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[smoky yoke]

like the memory spell wheel but for utility items? could be nice

[obtuse lichen]

region locking doesn't helps at all they still playing on EU and RU servers somehow and cheat

[storm tinsel]

they play on those servers through region lock with VPNs, thing is tho playing with a VPN gives hella lag and high ping

[obtuse lichen]

Exactly and they dont care about high ping and lag

[storm tinsel]

its easier to kill a hacker who has high ping and lag

[obtuse lichen]

Its not true if the person is cheating

[storm tinsel]

yes it is true if they are cheating, unless they are rage hacking. since this game allows you to spectate ppl who kill you. anyone rage cheating gets banned pretty quickly

[obtuse lichen]

In my experience region locking never helps

[storm tinsel]

with what games?

My point is that lag and high ping wont disable people from rage hacking, but people who are trying to get away with hacking will def still be at a major disadvantage from having to use a vpn or spoofer. the only way to overcome that massive amount of input delay is with rage hacking. rage hacking is passable in games like rust or tarkov because you cant spectate ppl who kill you. but with dark and darker, everyone I reported for hacking was banned because you can easily screen record and have solid proof they are hacking

[obtuse lichen]

With any
Pubg RU region suffers against chinese player
Super people died because of the chinese EU invasion
Tarkov had rmt crisis because mostly because of the chinese
first 2 games had region lock
3 game had max ping limit

anyways the most efficient way to at least prevent cheaters and laggy people from a lobby will be max ping limit

[storm tinsel]

pubg was a piece of sht they let die. tarkov is actually a disaster 1/3 lobbies have a hacker in them with 1/3 players being hackers. never heard of super people tho so you're probably right about that one. region locking definitely stops amateur hackers. @obtuse lichen Ive never heard of max ping limit but thats probably a good idea in my opinion

[obtuse lichen]

Tarkov has a max ping limit if your ping is higher than 150 i think it doesnt lets you to select a server and even if you selected it somehow it boots you out after having more than 150 for 10seconds

I dont care about people RMTING unless they are cheating in my game and ruining my experience

I know how frustrating it feels to lose to cheater especially if you are high ranked player in the game

[storm tinsel]

RMT will lead to hackers being in your lobby

[obtuse lichen]

Nah RMT is a subproduct

[junior solstice]

RMT is the main driver of hackers, if people can make money of a game, they will cheat to do so

[storm tinsel]

I have 1000+ hours in tarkov so ik a quite a bit of RMT. RMT isnt a thing because theres hackers. Hackers are so prevalent because of RMT. the RMT market is so profitable that hackers will pay hundreds of dollars monthly for accounts and hacks because once they hack to get expensive ig items to sell for real money, they still turn a profit

[obtuse lichen]

A lot of the cheaters just cheat for fun
The cycle has 2 separate lobbies for verified and not trustworthy people
might be the good idea as well
and the funny thing is you still can RMT items but i met cheater only like 2 times out of 300 games
The best way to defeat hacker is not by implementing anti RMT systems it is by making better anticheat systems overall

Who cares if noob buys items if he still sucks at the game

[junior solstice]

That's still pay2win and many are against it

[obtuse lichen]

pay2win i doubt it

[storm tinsel]

yeah no one is saying that they dont want an anti cheat system, but since the system wont be perfect there needs to be anti RMT systems. IDC that people are buying items for real world money, i care that this will cause Hackers to ruin the game for these items so they can sell them

[obtuse lichen]

just at the cycle state 1 year ago and now and they never implemented anti rmt systems

1 hacker out of 200 games pretty good right, also compensation system even if you die against hacker
and whoever was playing with him on basis getting banned as well

[junior solstice]

I disagree with banning people that play with hackers, because they might not be aware that they are playing with one, i had this happen to me (not in DnD, i hope) and I appreciated not getting punished for something I didn't have control over

[obtuse lichen]

Key word on basis

[junior solstice]

It will be hard to prove that other people are guilty, could lead to to many unjustified bans, it's a double-edged sword

[obtuse lichen]

devs can see if the certain player received unrealistic amount of loot from the player and then after the player that was giving away the loot gets banned for cheating
devs ban anyone who was receiving huge amount of loot from him

Nah dude if your teammate is cheating on basis you need to be legally blind

[junior solstice]

maybe he was a generous lad, how are people at fault if someone gives them stuff?

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah adding random people from different countries just to land on the planet and extract after 2 mins

[junior solstice]

it depends, if he only has ESP and doesn't tell you about it, how should i know if he is cheating when he's concealing it?

[obtuse lichen]

I guess pray then

I guess if you are new to the game than its hard to see the difference whenever you are playing with a hacker in squad or not

Just unfriend him if he gets you banned or was caught for cheating before

Im not an angel as well i was thinking about RMTing as well but the funny thing is i wasnt hacking
I was just good at the game
Never got banned in my live
Thats why im thinking RMT isnt a problem i guess

[junior solstice]

I'll give you an example: a dude i played with in arma 2 dayz back nearly 10 years ago, he got banned for hacking, i didn't get banned for playing with him because I had good connections with the admin of the server i played one, i was a regular there and he knew me. The guy that got banned did literally nothing to arouse suspicion, by the time that happened we were pros in the mod and knew every inch of the map and how players would move and where best to dispose of them.
There are literally situations where you can't tell if your teammate is hacking. I was later told by the admin that they monitored him for more than a month to catch him

[obtuse lichen]

Its arma dude but in the games with inventory management and loot system it breaks economy

[junior solstice]

it was dayz mod, it had inventory and loot system my dude

[obtuse lichen]

lmao dayz im not that old sorry

Still this game has less deeper loot system than dark and darker

[junior solstice]

yeah, the good old times, a lot of people hacked arma back then, was difficult to find a good server

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah imo community servers and official servers with matchmaking kinda different case

You cant just make 30% of the people monitor every damn server

Actually i remember 1 case where i got banned like 6 years ago in cs:source on the knife server just because some weaboo bought an admin and decided if he cant beat me he can ban me and after that i started hating community servers

@junior solstice Actually great idea about making less false bans is a trust system
Example you have 2 trust
You were playing with the cheater bam -1 trust point
Trust point recovers for 14 days
If you get caught playing with another cheater -1 trust = 0 = reset
You get banned or your char resets

[junior solstice]

that gives me ptsd on when i got some points for some traffic stuff and was close to losing my driver's licence

[obtuse lichen]

You need to be truly unlucky to play with 2 cheaters in a row

Players with higher game hours and overall matches might have more than 2 trust points

[wary junco]

A lot of effort to do. I believe its to complicated to implement.

[obtuse lichen]

How its complicated

Its doesnt even requires a formula

Its more like DOTA mmr system but without rigged 50%

[junior solstice]

What if people start making bot accounts to farm those points and then sell those accounts to cheaters?

[wary junco]

Yeah scratch my comment, iam just talking out of a stomach feeling. Nothing that would realy support my statement

[obtuse lichen]

If you hack you get banned anyways i was talking about other people who were playing in party with a hacker

[obtuse lichen]

bruh

[wary junco]

Hey, atleast i admit that my comment has the quality of a diherea

[junior solstice]

Actually, I think some game has done this before, they didn't ban cheaters, but put them into a separate queue where they would be matched only against other cheaters, effectively making a separate 'cheat' cluster for those players

[obtuse lichen]

holy fuck shadow lobby you can get put in it even if you arent cheating

[junior solstice]

yeah, that would suck, cause you would be at a disadvantage 😄

[obtuse lichen]

Imagine you are wiping the whole lobby then people report you and you get put in the shadow lobby

[wary junco]

"Time for you to go to the shadow realm Jimbo."

https://tenor.com/view/shadow-realm-jimbo-alexzander-greats-nothing-personal-jimmy-neutron-gif-26475356

[obtuse lichen]

shadow lobby is the worst idea because you are starting to realize that your are in the shadow lobby after a couple of the games where you just suck

Better to just ban players at that point or keep an eye on them with anticheat system

[tawny lagoon]

Shadow lobbies in Dark souls 3 worked pretty well, they were actually very populated back in the day. They also allowed PvP mods a place to exist

[obtuse lichen]

yeah but pvp in DS3 wasn't necessary

@wet root reworking meditation skill to make regen your spells when use it without sitting might be a good idea
But i'd say it should give a lot less regen compare to sitting with meditation

Something like enlightenment skill

That gives you regen like clarity pots

[wet root]

Clarity pots are trash and don't have to buy...

[obtuse lichen]

wdym trash

They are saving so much time when you are playing on the cleric

[wet root]

and also because a person will play a mage and not put meditation and skill slot??? lol nothing flexible to assemble a wizard...

[wet root]

Only cleric ... But the mage is soo much skills

[obtuse lichen]

You know that it regens every spell right?

[wet root]

yes kkkkkk I said in the sense of many spell charges without taking into account that some spells require more regeneration points to gain a charge

another thing, try to research someone there to make a mage boss... it is not feasible to make the goblin cave troll, and the other bosses at most you can kill the necromancer's skulls with the fire dagger biuld

[obtuse lichen]

Mage isn't supposed to kill bosses anyways
and cleric as well

[wet root]

so the mages are not to make the bosses? what are they for then?

[obtuse lichen]

solo mages mostly for pvp

In party you just usually buff main dd with ingnite on the boss
and throw a couple of the spells thats it

[dense sand]

You've never played cleric lol

[muted crag]

Its baja blast.

[wet root]

So it's easier to delete the mage class and replace it with "pvp class and group buff slave".... what I'm discussing here is exactly this... the mage sucks for everything he does other than that what you commented, what I want is for him to have more flexibility to make more content like all other classes can and they are privileged yes.. the game is not just pvp and group play... it has a lot of strategy to explore and PVE (except for the mage until then ), and I didn't even get into the subject of magic staff and magic sword being complete shit...

[wet root]

Cleric, mage e bard i play...

[obtuse lichen]

thats the point of the class system

[wet root]

well... if the developers want the classes to be limited to making only certain types of content (although everyone knows that only the mage is limited), they know what they want to do with the game... but they will lose some players who really like to play with the mage class will, because one hour they will saturate with making the two same content...

[obtuse lichen]

what are you smoking

[wet root]

🧙‍♂️ nothing, I just want the mage class to be as much fun to play as the others.... 🧙‍♂️

[steep ocean]

BUFF WIZARD!

[obtuse lichen]

give stick to old man

[wary junco]

Every class has it pros and cons in any type of section of the game. It sadly the fact that wizard is just very bad against actual bosses. Barbs are not good also against actual bosses the only classes that are reasonable equiped for taking down bosses are fighter cleric and ranger

[steep ocean]

Wizard has ben nerfed in every last playtest, they should buff him

[wary junco]

The section where wizard simply shines is pvp. It is the most versatile class in the game considering its possibilitys solo and in team

[wary junco]

Sry i cant quite understand your statement dou to grammatic and spelling errors

[obtuse lichen]

he wants to buff wizard

please dont tell them about how he can nuke the whole team

[steep ocean]

Quit acting like you are smart ya fighter fanboy, you clearly cant understand the wizard's wisdom

[wary junco]

Which is understandbale i understood that. Problem simply is with wizard that he will be a menace and a traumatizing expierence if buffed incorrectly

[obtuse lichen]

wizard is just skill based class thats it

[steep ocean]

People fear wizard because they saw few videos on youtube and twitch, but the class and players are overall really bad

[wary junco]

Ahm sry if you understood that as attack. It wasnt ment to be one, i simply was not able to understand your statement.

[obtuse lichen]

make wizard do 100 damage per zap

[wet root]

Yes... Kkkkk shadow wizard money gang video

[obtuse lichen]

give old man a wheelchair so he can roll around

[steep ocean]

They nerfed the wizard because everybody feared the top 1% of wizard players who were really good, now when they realised wizard is hard to play and not that good, they should buff him, starting with the fireball splash damage, zap cast speed and wizard starting weapon.

[wary junco]

As said, the main thing wizard shines in is pvp. Iam aware that he suffers a lot in looting and pve but he is a complete powerhouse in pvp. Everytime you lose a fight as wizard you have to ask yourself what you did wrong, because wizard has the ability to win any fight

[obtuse lichen]

@inland sluice B-2 in inferno B-1 is a crypt F-1 ruins

[autumn flare]

They could give wizard some more possibilities to deal with common mobs, to not froce him wasting spells maybe some short melee weapon in basic gear or let him bonk skelets with his staff for like 18 dmg

[wet root]

this is not the point of the question, but how the mage class is difficult and limited for other content.... have you tried to level a mage solo? it takes forever to level up

[steep ocean]

barb with iron will and speed buff always wins against most of the wizards

[obtuse lichen]

you can deal with the mobs just no as good as other classes do thats the whole point

[wary junco]

Startingweapon seems a good way to buff him i agree, buffing splash dmg or cast time would not be that great since it would effect the upper 1%

[wet root]

Yeeeess bro this is really suck

[inland sluice]

i remember always seeing people refer to B-2 as crypts and b-3 as inferno, might be remembering wrong tho?

[wary junco]

I mean, wizard can just stealth away and kite the speed buff

[steep ocean]

oMG zAP Op lETs tRiPlE tHE cASt tIMe!!! - and thats what happened bruh

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah most of the people fuck up with it

[wet root]

With the barb o other melee class sticking to you, you have no more chance

[autumn flare]

I mean you have to waste spells even on the weakest mobs and then meditate to start next room, if he could finish mobs with melee attacks in basic eq would change it a bit

[obtuse lichen]

b= basement f=floor

[wary junco]

From my expierence if you die to a melee class you made a huge mistake as wizard. The only situation they should get near you is when you stealth in their face and magical Blender them

Melee classes should never have the chance to get near you in the first place

[obtuse lichen]

thats the point of the wizard i dont see anything wrong with it and actually you can kills mobs in melee pretty successful if you have crystal sword or dagger
also it takes like 6 second to meditate back single ignite charge

[autumn flare]

But i was talking about the basic gear and first runs as a wizard

[wary junco]

Or just kill mobs with daggers like a rogue peasant

[obtuse lichen]

Basic gear is harsh on every class

[autumn flare]

But wizard is especially boring and slow clearing, half of the time sleeps

[minor canyon]

In the first place, Wiz should leave the MOB handling to his allies.

[obtuse lichen]

not really you can sacrifice some spell charges to clear faster even with junk gear
but fighter cant

[wary junco]

[autumn flare]

And then you sleep half of the run time

[obtuse lichen]

Their point is that wizard should be monster in solo

[wary junco]

Fighter can easily clear just a little slow

[autumn flare]

Its just boring to start solo run as a wizard in basic gear

[obtuse lichen]

But he doesnt nukes anyone with pvp like a wizard thats a point

[wary junco]

Like any other class so get back into the line

[autumn flare]

You kill 3 mobs then sleep repeat

[obtuse lichen]

Just dont run basic gear you can always buy gray items

[wary junco]

Werent we talking about base gear? Cause basegear mage cant 1 shot

[autumn flare]

Cmon my favourite is fighter, and as a fighter im swinging that's sword and its not that boring

[obtuse lichen]

Ik still what can fighter do with base gear in pvp and what wizard does

[autumn flare]

But you usually have basic gear when you dont have any other professor

[wary junco]

Yes that is what you agree with if you choose to play that class lol. Its like realy delusional to complain about a fundamental Design of a class it is litterly suppose to be like this

[obtuse lichen]

Fighter has better start for pve but definitely not for pvp

[wary junco]

High gear fighter can technicly be as strong as a full gear wizard. But the wizard just has a lot more possibilties and mechanics to abuse so if the fighter doesnt hit 3 longbow shots wizard wins

[obtuse lichen]

yes thats a pointy

[autumn flare]

Ok if you enjoy playing boring game and half of the time being in sleep simulator then maybe shut down discussion

[wary junco]

Its just about the question can the fighter hit its arrows before the wizard can shred him to pieces

[obtuse lichen]

the problem is the base gear not wizard

[autumn flare]

Yes that's what im talking about from the start

[obtuse lichen]

But every other class has this problem as well

[wary junco]

Well i aint playing wizard for those exact reason. But crying about the Main core of the class doesnt make sense then just dont play it

[obtuse lichen]

its the whole point of the game no one is going to give you a good gear for no reason

[wary junco]

If you dont like it, just dont play it. Its that easy

[autumn flare]

You dont get the point my dude and blindly denying everything i say

[wary junco]

I mentioned you point in a previous point of mine. You seemed to ignore that one.

[obtuse lichen]

Im having my friend vibes when he told me he is not going to buy a gear because they are already giving him starter gear
and he was literally rocking 0 pots

[wary junco]

Yeah if you are gifted gear atleast have the decency to buy meds

[obtuse lichen]

meanwhile having in stash over 1k gold

[wary junco]

Only limiting factor is that potions can only be bought 9 times of each rarity

[autumn flare]

Yes excactly, but i think wizard wouldnt be so much buffed and op if he could just bonk to finish a mob from time to time with his staff instead of sleeping every minute and that's my whole point @wary junco

[obtuse lichen]

you can bonk with ignite and then just meditate for 5 seconds

[autumn flare]

Yes and that's suck

[obtuse lichen]

Not really

[wary junco]

Like i agreed to the fact that his base gear should be improved to support a better clear without spells. But the entire sitting down mechanic should not be changed and if you complain about sitting around get clarity potion

[obtuse lichen]

every class has their own potential

[wary junco]

It will be interesting though, next playtest iam gonna main cleric and go for those juicy uniques

[obtuse lichen]

Actually just play bard he has sword and can cast as well
I wonder if bard is going to be good in EA

[autumn flare]

But i'm not saying about the changing any mechanic, he already has that staff, wouldnt it be very unfair if he could slowly punch some mob with it for like 15dmg? He still need to meditate most of the time but not every minute with that little change

[wary junco]

Barb will always be good in some way.

[obtuse lichen]

I hope they'll see my suggestion to improve the staff

[autumn flare]

Can you ping id of your suggestion? @obtuse lichen

[obtuse lichen]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[wary junco]

Alright my suggestion will be a troll suggestion but still it would be as hell

[autumn flare]

Agree

[wary junco]

Kek

[obtuse lichen]

Also i was thinking about reworking meditation on the wizard since they added resting in the game
Enlightenment skill that gives a short effect similar to clarity pots instead of meditation

[autumn flare]

@wary junco You get it now? That's my whole point. I dont want to delete meditating or completely change the class. Wizard still will rely on spells but he wouldnt be in need to sleep to finish one spider for example.

[obtuse lichen]

what do you think

[autumn flare]

I want to change the staff so wizard can use it as a weak and slow melee weapon dealing like 15 dmg. It would be an ,,emergency,, alternative form of attack, used to finish mobs on low hp instead of going to sleep just to finish some damn spider.

[obtuse lichen]

honestly staff attack range is kinda short

[autumn flare]

Ye could be atleast 20% longer

Cuz not gonna lie wizard can almost kill a full party alone if he land fireball pretty nice which is even too op, but dealing with mobs is tragedy

[pure basin]

What do we think about giving hand crossbows to wizard?

[honest knot]

why?

[obtuse lichen]

why

[honest knot]

wiz already is one of the strongest ranged classes

[pure basin]

So I can use a crystal ball and ignite. Would be fun

[trim maple]

ah yes because the ranged character needs another ranged option

[pure basin]

Well wiz has normal crossbow. I would suggest to change normal for hand

[trim maple]

and no one uses it because spells are simply too powerful, right?

[pure basin]

Not true. Nazori uses crossbow all the time. Also plenty of other non streamer players

[trim maple]

eh, never seen a single crossbow wiz in all my time playing. didnt even know you could equip it on him tbh

[latent oriole]

Wiz can equip a crossbow?

[pure basin]

You probably don't play with many wizards. But as a wiz main it's viable

[trim maple]

I tried to learn Wizard before the servers died

[latent oriole]

I played a decent amount of wiz and never realised lmao

[trim maple]

I enjoy the casters in this game alot tbh

[pure basin]

Try it out in EA pretty fun

[latent oriole]

Can you ignite the crossbow?

[pure basin]

Use ignite tho

[pure basin]

Yup

[latent oriole]

Thats cool at least

[trim maple]

Still think hand crossbow would be a bit much tho, everyone would just go crystal ball + hand crossbow

[latent oriole]

I hate ball + dagger on wiz, It feels so out of place

[trim maple]

And Wizard already has enough ranged options

[pure basin]

Yeah I'd like to test it. Could be broken, but I think it would just put more utility on ignite. Hard to pull off melee ignite with the weakest hp class

[wary junco]

How dare ppl not like my meme suggestion what a tragedy

[trim maple]

Yea but an ignited ball+dagger does like 9999 damage even with bad gear no?

[pure basin]

You need decent magic power. But if you aren't geared I wouldn't recommend using that build

[wary junco]

Lets get repeating crossbows for skeletons

[obtuse lichen]

More like a magic archer idea

Nononono guns for bosses

[wary junco]

Nonono a goblin archer with a nuke as arrowhead

[obtuse lichen]

nonnonnono blunderbuss skelly

[wary junco]

Nonono grenade spitting spiders

[obtuse lichen]

nononno kamikadze spiders

[wary junco]

Nonono boomer zombies

[obtuse lichen]

onnonoo zoomer mummies

[wary junco]

Skeleton with a heatseeking missle in hell with lava for total chaos

[obtuse lichen]

nonono floor becomes lava feature

[wary junco]

Actualy rising lava or void zones is a good idea

[obtuse lichen]

shitty circle is already enough

[wary junco]

Free loot from dying mobs

Like the priso room with the spiketraps

[robust bison]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
i think this one is good BUT i would not spawn instantly i think there would be a time of like 1m or something like that before it spawns (so an invisible rogue can'ty open em for their team to escape instantly from a fight)

[pure basin]

Sharks with frigen Lazer beams attached to their foreheads

[wary junco]

Bards get the ability to use "Stagedive" sliding into a direction knocking every person away in a 3 m range for 5 m

Bard gets the ability to use "Moshpit" forcing enemy to dance around him. Making them unable to move or attack for 3 seconds

[robust bison]

i saw few suggestion abt the staff doign magic dmg

but even if the casting time is slower u can strike with it (where the spellbook can't) so i think just doing it liek the crystal sword but worse would be better

or even making it doing everything but bad (magic wpn dmg physical wpn dmg and magic dmg)

[rigid prawn]

What do we think about adding fall damage to greatly reduce the rogue problem? No more jumping on peoples heads from 200ft above but still able to get up there to traverse the map etc. 0 fall damage can’t be the intended end game mechanic right?

[robust bison]

like keeping it's curent physical dmg but having half the magic dmg of the spellbook/crystal ball and half the magic wpn dmg of the crystal sword

[glacial sphinx]

Don't like suggestions shaping the entire game around a broken perk that was just added. Don't like people suggesting maps should be changed for it and I don't like the idea of adding fall damage just to address its' existence. Remove or nerf the perk itself.

[rigid prawn]

Adding fall damage would be less of a way to nerf double jump and more of an implementation that makes sense to add regardless of the perk or not, it just happens to nerf rogue the most (especially with double jump)

Giving alternative routes to get up in the rafters via ladders or different climbing mechanics for other classes would be another way to do it if keeping fall damage off is the intended goal, I’m just trying to figure out a solution that doesn’t trivialize rogue again and potentially keep one of the funnest gameplay loops in the game (running the thieves highway)

[inland sluice]

honestly i played the fuck out of rogue in playtest 5 but id rather they just remove the perk, its too much. even with fall damage it would be way too easy to get away on an already fast as heck class

[robust bison]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
Little reminder: A SPEAR CANT BE THROW
but yeah adding javeline seems to be good

[rigid prawn]

So the problem with double jump was the ability to evade people? How could we take this away from rogue without reverting to playtest 4 rogue? What can we do to compensate the removal?

[glacial sphinx]

Well if you want to suggest fall damage separate from double jump I dont mind, but I think I still wouldn't want it added. And I don't agree that rogues were trivial last playtest at all, I think they performed pretty okay based on the playtest stats, certainly not bottom tier at all.

But double jump completely broke the game and its weird seeing people advocate for it staying when it's clearly trivializing multiple gameplay mechanics, like traps, doors and PVE entirely. The only reason it feels fun for now is because its broken and lets you succeed easily, but a huge part of what used to be intended gameplay is lost when you play it.

[robust bison]

i agree on DJ is broken but adding a cd on it would be enough (IRL double jumping would say that u have enough energy in ur legs to jump in the air 💀 so this rogue is legit inhuman)

[rigid prawn]

I think the main reason I want it to stay was the fact ruins was designed with the mechanic in mind and the map had built in counter plays for it but people seem blind to it for some reason. Sound effects of rocks falling down the wall would play for people down below if a rogue was walking on the top of it, as well as the unnaturally loud “loose brick” sound that would play while walking.

Rangers took a massive dive in player numbers but were a genuine threat to any rogue sitting on top of a pillar.

@robust bison I understand the inhuman argument but at the same time it’s inhuman for the fighter to recover health through second wind, or the entire magic system for that matter. If a wizard can be believed to throw fireballs then a double jump isn’t that crazy right?

[glacial sphinx]

Well I don't subscribe to the realism argument personally. I think the bigger issue is the amount of mechanics you can circumvent with it like having to open doors, dodging traps very easily, dodging pve attacks, jumping over mobs. And then just spamming it in PVP is also very good and makes you less of a target.

Its just completely out of whack in terms of power for a perk, but also in terms of feel. The whole game is built to make you feel vulnerable and weak, but with DJ none of that applies to you. People often complain about getting blocked even by spiders etc. But with DJ not even regular mobs can block you. I think that will ultimately make success feel less earned, or at least set a wrong baseline for anyone playing rogue as a first/main class.

And there is actually a decent bit of parkouring you could already do, and they can expand on that even further in Ruins to keep that feeling you like, but double jumping actually trivialized what existed before as well.

[rigid prawn]

I agree it gives the class a lot of power, but I argue that it gives the class the majority of it power. Without double jump, rogue gameplay becomes narrowed down to hide ambush’s and dps racing.

With double jump, the class that’s lorewise known to be an agile fighter that relys on stealth and hit and run tactics / evasion over defences is to an extent fulfilled. I mean without double jump, some enemies like the skeleton knight aren’t possible unless your rocking some killer movement speed. Being able to hop over attacks just fits the class perfectly.

I think if they doubled down on this and took some of the damage or survivability from the class to try to balance instead, we could keep this unique playstyle and all the fun it can bring

[rough elm]

Adding fall damage would fix ruins "somewhat" and by adding fall damage i mean not by a lot only by like -15% if u jump from like on top of the castle , and double jump just needs probably needs seperate hud that would charge double jump , maybe naturally it would recover every 5 sec maybe also adding that if u hit someone while in stealth u could recover by 1 sec , it definitely is possible to find a compromise for nerfs , but still making as strong

[robust bison]

it's a magic world so second wind can be real cuz it can be like a minor spell for a fighter(u can see that it can be regenerated when u rest (but it's long af)) but double jump, even with magic, is the ability to make the air solid or having so much energy than just a single jump could make u go in an almost dead state if u r not dead xd so if it's magic, give double jump a cd, if it's not, change on how u can use it (i saw a suggestion where u can double jump only near wall for exemple)

[glacial sphinx]

If they keep it it should be something like 3 charges with a 20 second recharge on it or something. Even then it would be really strong for just a perk. Currently rogue is not an agile fighter that relies on stealth, its a bunny hopping lunatic that doesn't use stealth and fires a handcrossbow from range that does more damage than a fireball if you pop rupture.

[rough elm]

Probably adding some sort of mini effect after rogue double jump would sell the effect that it's not just literally a double jump without making any sense

[robust bison]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
i think the idea isn't bad, but not in the state asked here, i think more like a shop with certain rarity and kind of collectable u find can be ok

[wary junco]

[rigid prawn]

@robust bison Double jump on a CD could be something to look at for balance, as long as feels ok. Gotta remember that a lot of this is built on D&D mechanics so things like boots of striding and springing could be a possible example of a way to explain away jump mechanics.

I think a major problem with these areas was the fact that they’re ere inaccessible by the other classes. Adding things like Misty step for wizards and accessible jumping paths for other classes to reach the same areas (although not as easily of course).

I think they should change the way rupture works, having it apply to the crossbow might be a mistake. The cross bow without it is essentially tick damage though, and any ranger with a longbow or fighter with a crossbow will show you just how weak that little guy is in comparison.

[visual pulsar]

Rupture + the activated armor pen and passive pen is -65% physical damage in a damage over time ranged attack. It can be absolutely brutal. With or without double jump

[glacial sphinx]

Again, I don't need double jump explained away for me lore wise. I don't care about rogues adhering to some rules of realism. But areas are hard to access or inaccessible for a reason sometimes, there's treasure hidden behind traps because theres risk involved. Sometimes you're not supposed to easily reach a blue portal. If you can ignore mechanics like doors, traps and mobs with double jump to get to things easily that means you're circumventing half of the game. Just adding misty step so others can do the same doesn't fix that that degrades the experience.

[upbeat sapphire]

Honestly, just remove double jump. It was fun to abuse, but it really is too powerful. Every wiz/ranger I ran into was having the worst of times trying to hit me (Even very effective vs melee, and made PvE a joke).. And as for the argument I keep seeing about "rogue being squishy": Squishiness does, in fact, not matter if nobody can hit you.

[visual pulsar]

Both of those classes need a buf. Wizards can hit them easily with chain lightning since the projectile has no travel time. However it just doesnt hit like it use to.

[upbeat sapphire]

Sure, chain lightning works. But if the rogues' close to you, you die from his swing + your own lightning

[visual pulsar]

Every ranger uses quickshot, I think the projective speed activated should be buffed to not only increase the speed (great versus jumpy rogues) but also should deal 50% increased damage. Quickshot is 3 arrows so in theory 300% damage. I think 50% damage on a single shot with faster speed would be great for long range sniping. Remove the arrow drop from that 1 arrow as well.

[visual pulsar]

Yeah it feels bad no doubt there.

[glacial sphinx]

Sometimes though you gotta just nerf the best thing rather than buffing everyone else constantly. And CL is pretty limited range + can backfire if too close, cost a lot of memory and you only have 3 of them, while requiring at least 2 to kill.

[rigid prawn]

Your talking about a class that is by design, the anti trap/ bypass class, and that’s without double jump. Detect and disabling traps is locked behind a perk but so is double jump.

I don’t really get your understanding of degrading the game by allowing alternative paths through the levels. I personally think it makes it more interesting but I’m a filthy double jump enjoyer lol

[upbeat sapphire]

eh. That's skewing the balance the other way. Rangers are already pretty good at range and, with just a decent bow + some bonus stats, quickshot is powerful enough imo

[upbeat sapphire]

Dodging rangers, wizards and some melee moves was fun as hell. But what if you decide to play other classes? I think rogue is best kept as a surprise-by-stealth class instead of being able to bypass certain areas (Some of which are quite broken btw)

[visual pulsar]

Youre not wrong. I just dont want quickshot to be the only opion. Thats boring. The other skills need a buff to add some diversity to the builds.

Keep double jump a passive but make it only equitable to the activated abilities slot.

So if you have double jump you wont take invis, you wil most likly take rupture or armor pierce. Give Rogue the harder choice and it will also breed diversity of builds.

[glacial sphinx]

Do you think that creep, or detect traps is roughly same ballpark in strength as double jump? I'd reckon you say no. So thats one issue.

Then the second, about allowing alternative paths. I think thats something that can be improved. Maybe there need to be a few doors with lockpicking etc. Maybe some more parkouring can be added in general. I just don't think one perk should allow you to avoid mobs, traps and normal routing all at once, all the time. Thats why it needs to be severely nerfed or removed imo. 3 Double Jumps per minute is way more reasonable than the last abomination where it ruined the new map for everyone else essentially.

[upbeat sapphire]

Oh, I may have misunderstood you. I do hope there isn't a meta perk/skill build every single game. Yes, I agree. But it's hard to imagine quickshot (3 quick shots with a longbow etc.) ever getting beat by anything that increases range/dmg on a single shot tbh. Without it being busted, ofc 🤔

[visual pulsar]

It will distinguish invis versus jumpy Rogues.

[visual pulsar]

Quickshot is a bit more of a commitment when you load the arrows. Cool down of a single shot with buffed damage and speed of shot could be comparative. one should be suprior long range and one medium

[upbeat sapphire]

This might be it, yeah. But double jump would need a nerf in steering mid-air too, imo

Edit: Or maybe just the steering nerf? Something to make it not as op vs ranged players at least

[rigid prawn]

Other classes can deal with rogue with proper understanding of how. Gotta keep in mind this was the first iteration of both the mechanic and the ruins map, but these problems can be fixed without removing double jump entirely (placing objects in the way of op spots to prevent rogues from getting there).

Isn’t the class that can die in 2 hits being agile a good way to compensate for that? I’m just trying to prevent reverting rogues to their playtest 4 state

[robust bison]

i also see a lot of ppl complaining abt DR (dmg reduction) but you know, a rogue or a ranger shouldn't be a legit tank cuz of a tweak in AR, i think the problem isn't the DR but the way you can get armor pen, you can get some with some talents/active on the dmg classes but they are only rolled buffs on weapons/armor, so maybe they should make armor piercing weapons than changing the AR it self (it is made so the cleric and the fighter (both can be tank archetypes) are the only who can be really tanky, u don't want to see a rogue with 55% DR 💀)

[glacial sphinx]

Think making double jump a 30 sec CD skill with 5 seconds of double jumping is also an option yeah, that would make it a more reasonable tradeoff, since you'd sacrifice damage or stealth.

[inland sluice]

Make double jump into a unique set of lightfoot boots as a special effect ez fix lets gooo

[visual pulsar]

Double jump is annoying yes, but handcrossbow is what makes it busted. Rogues should be forced to a melee fight. No need to chase them. Even with double jump 90% of them I killed with 1 or 2 melee attacks max. People are upset they couldnt catch rogues. Playing right into their game of chase me chase me. For no reason.

[upbeat sapphire]

Fair points. I still think their maneuverability mid-air is a problem for ranged classes though. I don't like over the top momentum (inertia) in games, but being able to curve your jump mid-air to dodge arrows and magic (which is already slow moving) is kinda busted. Surely you agree

[mighty willow]

@visual pulsar for the leader-board i definitely agree with you that the funnelling of items destroy the competitive integrity. But other than that i dont see too much of an issue with it, since there is still basically the same amount of players with good vs not good gear. Just that some players choose to not use their good gear themselves and instead give it to someone so they have better content to watch (leading to those players having to use bad gear more often).

[rigid prawn]

Double jump is obviously the better choice for solo play when it comes to bypassing traps and besides the maze in b1 , the trap perk can be trivialized with map knowledge. I was just counter arguing your point about double jump being op because of the ability to bypass traps when it’s a staple of the class.

I see no problem with playing around with cooldowns and other mechanics to try to make double jump more counterable, ide just hate to see rogue reduced to hiding in corners and waiting like in playtest 4

[glacial sphinx]

PVP wise sure the handcrossbow made it 10x worse, even though its still kinda busted without it since you can pretty much always escape nomatter how much you mess up. But PVE wise its also extremely broken, letting you ignore any risk from traps, mobs or certain layouts.

[upbeat sapphire]

I never used hand crossbow in tandem with double jump tbh. I only went melee. But hand crossbow is quite strong, so much so that you could sell grey quality crossbows for up to 200g, lmao

[visual pulsar]

Remove hand crossbow from Rogue. No need. Keep double jump.

[upbeat sapphire]

This. Easiest time I ever had in the dungeon/hell was with double jump. Quite funny, but also quite ridiculous.

[robust bison]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
The idea here is made like a troll but seems legit, the barbarian should be able to lift some things like the wooden crates or lil' chests and throwing them to ppl and stun them/dmg them

[visual pulsar]

It really undermines the purpose of the game. Even tarkov bans it now. Ive never been more Pro-remove trading all together. You can drop loot for your friends when you hoard it for them, thats fine. But I think removing trading wouldnt be a big deal tbh.

[rigid prawn]

I think this is an example of a perfect balancing point. Removing air control would do a lot in making double jump less viable but still useable in most situations. I like this suggestion more then the CD suggestion by far

[visual pulsar]

It was absolutly busted when paired with rupture and stacking the armor penetration up to 65% from your passive and activated. High roller Rogues dont use invis. They use hand cross bow and your 2 damage activated skills

[mighty willow]

Then they would have to change the drops tho. So that you mainly get loot for your own class or it will take absurd amounts of time for players to get even one decent set of loot.

[upbeat sapphire]

Yeah, I saw on youtube after the test. I find it disgusting though. Hope it gets fixed, or even removed from rogues 😛

[visual pulsar]

I disagree. Why would they need to do that? I didnt trade all that often and I was covered in blues for my class.

I didnt craft stuff so thats on me. But I dont think you need to adjust drop rates massively. Ruins had great drops. and before they changed it the second layer was awesome.

[visual pulsar]

I think handcross bows should be Ranger/Bard. Rogues dont need. The class should play like a ganking stabby stab class.

[upbeat sapphire]

I think so too. Investing a perk slot for a CD double jump that's still busted is quite bad. But reducing the power it has in actual combat might be better. Though I do think the game is better without it. PvE challenge (in terms of movement and knowing how to dodge attacks from certain mobs) should be equal for all classes imo

[upbeat sapphire]

100% agree. The identity of a rogue should always be ambush-style combat imo

[abstract swallow]

Double Jump needs to be disabled during hitslow, bare minimum.

[rigid prawn]

This is another amazing balancing point, if evasion is the focus of the class make gettin hit punishing

[visual pulsar]

I think double jump should keep air control, not have a CD but upon landing you have a .5s 40% movment slow. This lets you climb stuff, this lets you still batman jump on people, and it lets you do the airborn stuff that feels good. But it prevents you from using it during combat to dodge every attack. That half second slow will bone you if you try bunny hopping in combat.

[wary junco]

Yes indeed it was a troll suggestion

[upbeat sapphire]

When talking about ranged... Francisca axe still broken?

[robust bison]

the idea still pretty cool

[glacial sphinx]

the slow is nerfed on francisca, but achilles strike makes it broken again

[robust bison]

for sure they can't throw to 10m away a 50kg crate but having this possible seems fair for the barbarian

[upbeat sapphire]

True. But the dmg is still hefty, isn't it ? Even without achilles?

[robust bison]

it can be as a short range entry dmg output and a defensive state (can be protected with it for few hits)

[glacial sphinx]

Its pretty high but axe spec was nerfed at least, from +10 wpd to +5

[robust bison]

the pb is being batman 💀

[rigid prawn]

Double jump in combat made some PVE mobs possible that’s were otherwise not before, like double jumping over skeleton knights horizontal swings. For PVP I think there was something weird going on with the hit box while double jumping since it felt like hits were missing and stuff, but reducing its effectiveness in pvp by marking double jump disabled when in hit slow like @abstract swallow said would be a way to fix that as well

[robust bison]

they can legit just run out of ppl/judgement rnage bcs of that

[visual pulsar]

The issue is handcrossbow realistically. I have had many Rogues in ruins jump off something to fight me and feed me kills lol. It pretty much gives me this activated ability "Sacrifice 1 hit of damage and pull a rogue to your location to 1 shot"

Legit not a problem. When they have a handcrossbow however, thats big difference. Rogues should be forced to fight you melee range. The class is made of paper

[visual pulsar]

Yeah, getting hit could be a solution. Just need to land that first one

It would prob feel natural to. Im privy to that being a fix. It would also make fire damage potentially better for the wizard, as they will burn a few seconds and keep the jump "silenced"

[upbeat sapphire]

Reducing air control while double jumping should eliminate unfairness in PvP, while also keeping it as an option to dodge PvE or maneuver better around some places on the map... That being siad, I still think the main points are both PvP and PvE. Should not be easier to win PvP (or eliminate all PvE threat) while simply double-jumping

[visual pulsar]

Again i think the double jump in PVE the Rogues needed. Ever get hit once by ANYTHING as a rogue lol. Now youre in danger. The hand crossbow is far more easy-mode for PVE than double jump. Double jump is a big quality of life for traps and kiting in PVE yes. But not to a busted extent. Some classes have shields and ranged attacks. Rogue should not have a ranged attack.

[rigid prawn]

Exactly! Forcing double jump to be more evasive/ utility instead!

Ima big fan of raising classes up rather then taking 1 down. With misty steps on wizard, wall climbing with ranger, grapple hook for fighter or other ideas of the like, as well as accessible jumping puzzles doable by other classes to get to similar areas, we could see a very fun addition of verticality to the game!

[visual pulsar]

Every class should be able to more easily jump over traps IMO. a trap should catch you off guard. They shouldnt be so freaking wide in the middle of a hallways that even when you think you timed your jump perfectly as a non-rogue, you still get clipped unfairly. It just feels bad and feels more like RNG than a well timed jump

[visual pulsar]

Id love a misty step on the wizard. But god I hope every class doesnt get vertical play haha. Its something I just dont want to deal with. And letting ranged classes get high ground advantages you cant access without doing these puzzles? Broken, as we can already see with the handcrossbow

Remove trading all together: I really dont want RMT to grief this game like it has ..EVERY GAME ever lol. Trading isnt needed at all tbh. The game can still be enjoyed in its cuthroat hardcore manner. Gold was already so cheap to buy with real money during the PT and the prices will only get lower and lower. Id love for it not to be a problem at all, and the heart of the game (find loot, extract with it) to be left 100% intact.

[glacial sphinx]

Raising everyone up is just power creep that trivializes the PVE game though. You need to have reasonable limits on everyone to keep the game challenging, mechanics relevant and victories feel earned.

[upbeat sapphire]

Ppl buying gold when you can earn 1k/hr or more, just by surviving with some loot.. Always makes me chuckle

[upbeat sapphire]

Indeed.

[meager jasper]

I love trading in this game and disagree strongly. Without trading money also has next to no value. We saw this at the start of this playtest when we couldn't actually spend money.

[robust bison]

yes 💀 oblin cave take a max of 12m queue excluded xd

[glacial sphinx]

If Wizards get misty step it needs some very careful balancing. Obviously there is opportunity cost since you're giving up another spell, and presumably theres a cast time and limited number of spells. But it can't just be straight up better than invis or haste for example either. And the potential for it being busted is great if you can move large distances vertically.
But yeah those limitations and tradeoffs i'm talking about are currently not present at all with Double Jump.

[upbeat sapphire]

Trading should be in the game. What would you spend gold on? HR with crap gear?

[robust bison]

NPC vendors 💀

btw ppl that made valentine come back are crybabies

yes it was cool to have it during pt4 (it was originally a valentines day NPC 💀) but candies aren't that rare and that expensive if u look well some trades

[meager jasper]

I don't think so. I think he's vital for a Playtest environment and if he made it into the final game in some form he'd likely help keep item inflation down rather than most good gear coming exclusively from other players it can actually be directly compared to a currency with a value.

But obviously I think a crafting system or something a bit more thematic would make more sense than heart candies being around the place.

[weak vine]

I think that valentine kind of trader makes a lot of sense for a week long playtest making it so people can see some good high tier gear but if wipes are going to be 2 months long then he does not have a place in the game

[honest knot]

I actually really hope we see some playtests where gear is truly rare, i don't like candy either. I want people to struggle, those first few days of pt5 where fantastic without him.

[steep ocean]

chill commie

[autumn flare]

But you can get a new gear and loose it in 2 minutes. Not everyone is masochist.

[honest knot]

I want a harder darker and darker, not an easier one.

i remember PT2 when 90% of the lobby died to the mobs and you couldn't find any PVP. that was too hardcore, but i don't want to see them slip the other way either.

i want dark and darker to not be beat in 5 days where everyone is at meta. that's what i want. Progression that somewhat matters and real effort to get to end game even for the sweat teams ideally.

[autumn flare]

I mean the game is hard and unforgiving enough, even the weakest common mob can take half of your hp when you make a mistake (or even kill you with xbow 1 shot) and PT2 wasn't more hardcore, ppl just were learning how to play. All newbies die some times before succeding for a first time. Also not everyone likes to grind for 100 hours just to loose in 2 minutes what he had achieved. @honest knot

[honest knot]

PT2 wasn't more hardcore? lol ask anyone else who played it, it was completely different.

[autumn flare]

And i think the progression will be much slower in the final game. Leveling and farming gold. It is easy and fast in playtest to let ppl actually test everything.

[honest knot]

Yep i think so too and i hope they add an auction house for us. that'd be nice

[autumn flare]

Im not a fan of making this game much harder than it is already.

[grizzled falcon]

Hard and Harder

[abstract swallow]

The game definitely needs to be, if not harder, much slower paced both in-dungeon and on a meta level.
There's way too much convenience from missing mechanics that's leading to a blistering pace through most runs and all character progression right now.

[visual pulsar]

Im talking about RMT, people spending real cash, to get in-game gold. This is a serious issue in modern gaming. Its ruins balancing and underminds the entire game. Dark & Darker is luckly a game that could not only be 100% fine without trading, but player power economy could benefit from removing it as well.

[visual pulsar]

Not to mention we have not seen the skill tree yet. Who knows what "endgame" they might have in mind.

[visual pulsar]

During this last PT it was $4 USD for 1k in-game gold. And it will only get cheaper and cheaper. $1 for 1000 gold. It will change the entire in-game economy and player power. Defies the purpose of an extraction shooter. Want good gear? Find it and extract, or kill players for it. Keep the gameplay IN GAME and not people spamming stuff to sell so they can trade gear without finding it. Trading is in most modern-games, so we expect it nowadays. However it always comes with issues. Dark & Darker is not an MMORPG and can actually flourish and benefit the gameplay to have no trading in it. Makes the stuff you find that much more important. It makes crating your own gear more rewarding as welll.

I think its something the devs should strongly consider. If this game gets flooded by gold traders, and a bunch of geared out noobs are going to run through lowlobbys Ill def be waving goodbye. One of the reasons I have turned to other gametypes like Mobas and left MMO's behind. Bots and gold trading is very damaging to a games playerbase

[junior anchor]

Cool reddit post

[visual pulsar]

It was commenters on my post that convinced me and made me in favor of removing trading all together. The game has more to benefit than to lose.

[subtle maple]

Why are people against a sensitive option to turn off blood 😭 just play it with blood on if you want, it won't affect you

[quick blade]

no blood option would make the game easier to play in china and that is where most of the cheating and gold farming comes from so I would prefer that option not exist.

Then again skellies are also banned in china so it might not make much difference.

[robust bison]

i totally agree

[quick blade]

What you really want is to be the only one in purp fighting all whites.

[robust bison]

after that ok i didn't get a lot of candy compared to pt4 (i got with a friend a total of almost 100 candies) but still enough for us to ghet 1 thing each and i feel like it's too easy to get some godlike items for almost nothing

[robust bison]

i want to see the farm to be on top not the candies

[meager jasper]

I don't care in the slightest about RMT existing. The game needs sinks to counteract the natural inflation. There's RMT in Tarkov too, and they get banned, and should be sure. But trade was vital to this playtest and dealing with the intense grind of having to locate good gear is way worse than dealing with the effects of trading.

Additionally, unlike an mmo, the dangers of extraction games do naturally counteract the effects of RMT regardless.

[robust bison]

the game want to be hard so why put a NPC that can sell godlike stuff for a max of 3 successful run for 1/2 stuff

[meager jasper]

You see this in games like PoE where everything is much cheaper in the hardcore version of the game because death means losing all your stuff. This is not that harsh, but it's still pretty harsh.

[quick blade]

I pulled almost as many purps as candies in playtest 5

[robust bison]

???? wtf

without doing any bosses and i don't take the pvp kills in the count i think i got like max 5purp in the entire week in i think 30h

[gaunt cargo]

Did you play HR or go to inferno? HR crypts I'd get 1 to 2 every game if I focused on looting.

[robust bison]

did almost only ruins some games in crypt into inferno in normal but even there i got mostly blue

i did like 3/4 HR and 1 went to the inferno (where i died) and got 0 purp on it

[subtle maple]

Inferno runs with lockpick or a rogue was a super ez 2 purples minimum

[robust bison]

my friend was a rogue and i was a cleric and he almost died each time we tried to go to inferno cuz he like too much pvp xd

so couldn't do exactly what i wanted in term of loot xd

[gaunt cargo]

Lol my friends are garbage as well, but it's usually more fun to get stomped with bros than play alone.

[quick blade]

Normal dungeon had better loot than highroll 2nd half of playtest

[gaunt cargo]

No.

[robust bison]

yeah xd

[severe merlin]

Do you guys think rest recovery should slightly scale with resourcefulness? It would make the stat a bit more useful and at least make resting take a bit less time. I don’t think rest recovery should be any slower than it is right now though, current rate could be minimum speed. Don’t think it should drastically change recovery speed, but it might be interesting

[quick blade]

Highroller was dropping craked flawed and whites. Normal was dropping greens blues purps.

its why so many high gear teams played normal better loot.

[visual pulsar]

It doesn’t counteract it actually. It cultivates more of it.

[visual pulsar]

That’s interesting. I rather like that idea. It would make the stat more desirable

[visual pulsar]

Ruins drop rate felt much much better than crypts. Which we knew had the drop rate reduced and Ruins increased.

[severe merlin]

I don’t think there will ever be a time that people will purposely prioritize the stat, but at least it would make it feel a bit more useful on characters with higher base resourcefulness

[gaunt cargo]

I have seen a select few rogues use resourcefulness on solo HR rat builds so they can loot faster and open/close doors faster to run away. Definitely feels underutilized in general, though.

[visual pulsar]

Perhaps not prioritize, but it would be a solid secondary stat to a primary one. If 2 pieces you’re wearing had this stat and made a noticeable difference In rest time. I bet the appreciate for it would grow as soon as you didn’t have that stat equip and resting came back to a slow crawl lol

[severe merlin]

Obviously you don’t want resting speed to be too fast, but current rate is something around 1hp per second. It’s so slow that I actually dread using it. And if a teammate uses it, you’re basically forced to stand idle next to them until completion

[visual pulsar]

Even if 20/30/40/50 heck 60% faster I don’t think it breaks anything by any means. Once you have a board of gold I tend to just use potions and bandages instead of resting. In high roller you are t sitting down

Tho bards restful song should not be under minded. I think it should still be faster. Bards song should be better even after it’s great recent buff

[severe merlin]

Only time I feel you ever get to use it efficiently is in between floors, but if you’re the last one down, you won’t get the full rest anyways, and since it gets removed upon standing up, it’s actually really brutal

[visual pulsar]

I personally think standing up should not reset recoverable. I would rather be able to choose when and how I recover that amount instead of increasing the speed of resting

[meager jasper]

source, you

[gaunt cargo]

The current rest rate is designed to be a last resort. It's supposed be slow as a punishment for not preparing properly with heals. You have to sacrifice a significant amount of game time and positioning to recover.

That said, if someone wants to "prepare" by gearing for a stat that increases it a bit, sure.

[true yacht]

@rare agate Honestly, I think they're just trying to buff/nerf weak/overpowered classes to make them fit with the classes that are already in the game, and being used. I feel ya though.

[visual pulsar]

Feel free to take part in the Reddit post I made yesterday. It isn’t 100% about RMT but it comes up a lot in discussion. But the topic is about streamers having no death that penalty. Currently has 190k views and 90% upvote. Top of D&D subreddit

[quick blade]

Ruins did feel like good loot. but normal forgotten castle and it's red portal had better loot than highroller and it's red. We were playing highroller and basically losing money while clearing all of both floors. While on standard before we go red already full of greens blues purp from looting. There was something wrong with the loot pools after hotfix 2.

[severe merlin]

I would tend to agree, but to balance it you could decrease the amount of potential saved restoration health more everytime you get hit to balance it out. I’d rather take a few short rests inbetween rooms

[true yacht]

Christ, man. Get that karma

[visual pulsar]

Yeah agreed. I enjoyed the red stairs myself. It was easier than forgotten tower red portal.

[meager jasper]

This doesn't shift the burden of proving the effects of this sort of thing on economy. You're claiming, arbitrarily, that money sinks don't counter inflation. That's a lie or you're ignorant and have been lied to.

[visual pulsar]

I should break 1000 today

[severe merlin]

Sort of like the bloodborne rally mechanic where you can only heal the amount of health lost from the last hit you took (but on rest ofc)

[true yacht]

God damn. How much of it was from that post? I was happy to get over 100, since I'm never on Reddit. Made a post about the sweatiness/meta rolling in PT5 as my first and only post. Shittidid my pants when I checked my karma the next day.

[visual pulsar]

You call it a money sink. I call it gear loss. People will be incentivized to spend RMT to tempter the pain of losing gear. Very very easy to see the market gap being filled by that sir. Not 100% arbitrary, I am a digital marketer by trade and product developer. It’s just how I see it happening. It is my@opinion yes, but it is t baseless.

[covert niche]

Hi, I have a question, how install the dark and darker?

[visual pulsar]

I had 2 karma when the post started. I have gained over 850 karma from that post.

[true yacht]

Holy shit lmfao. Saw a lad with around 2k, that's ALWAYS on Reddit. Imma go check it out, it must be pretty damn well written.

[meager jasper]

Except that regardless of the circumstances the gold farmers in question will have to value the money as literally higher, thereby countering inflation, because they cannot as effectively gain money any more than anyone else. Loss is what maintains the value of money here. You seem to grasp this fundamentally but aren't realizing that inflation is the devaluing of money.

[visual pulsar]

It’s just a hot take about leaderboards and streamers. Essentially death has no penalty for them when their following drops them thousands of gold and epic/unique pieces in between runs. It was a great conversation and what lead me to be pro-removing trading all together. Some commenters made great points. I’m def open to my mind being changed. Always opened to new perspective.

[visual pulsar]

I’d prefer a more elegant fix. Since no game has fully solved it. Even with banning people. Remove trading and the games integrity is intact. D&D is not a game you need gear to enjoy. I played this last playtest virtually without trading at all. Maybe only twice and I was able to collect quite a bit of gear, and backup gear. My second vote would be for an auction house. I discuss that as well on my Reddit post with some users. It would at least make free trading harder for streamers since anyone could snatch up he listing, and it would be an easy to track log for IM to ban buyers and sellers via search queries

[meager jasper]

Anyway I think you're mostly just crying with another select few people. I would much rather that there was a healthy trade system as it is now to allow the gain of gear to not be a huge grind. You also have a vested interest in preventing loot muling between tryhards and streamers, when in reality this doesn't matter in the slightest to anyone but them.

D&D is not a game you need gear to enjoy.
Okay then your opinion is so fundamentally invalid about this game, then I have no further desire to talk on the matter. Gear is the only point in this entire game. At least as it is now.

[visual pulsar]

“Select few” is an attempt to undermine a large mass of people that don’t want RMT in the game. Prob the majority. I understand the idea of removing trading all together is extreme for many. I am still open to other options to at least temper it. I 100% understand the desire to trade and the game player feature being something highly@expected in modern gaming.

[meager jasper]

Auction houses do not make things harder, furthermore, they make things easier as you don't actually have to sell anything manually. You keep making these sweeping, obviously wrong claims.

[true yacht]

Honestly dude, I was thinking the same exact thing when I watched an Orlanthi stream. Spot on breakdown of the difference in being an average joe and a streamer. +1 upvote lol

[visual pulsar]

Pvp conflict is the entire purpose of the game. Not gear. Gear facilitates power growth. I’m my@experience the game was still fun doing naked runs after losing what I had. The fun way playing with friends, the intensity and tension of player conflict. The high risk reward factor of gameplay. Not buying or selling gear.

[meager jasper]

Again, you just flat out don't understand that the gear is the reward system of the entire game then.

[visual pulsar]

… harder for RMT sir.

[meager jasper]

Yeah, you're not wrong about it being stupid for streamers to gain gear in this way. But removing the core ability for us to get gear without grinding isn't the solution.

[visual pulsar]

Private trades is a direct way to facilitate streamers getting gifted gear, and RMT selling it. If you have no interest in the discussion with me because of my view that’s fine. I dont really have interest with the discussion when someone can have it in a more civil manner tbh. So we can part ways from it.

[true yacht]

Imo, Tarkov does player trading better than any other game I have in my brain. The Flea Market is a pretty damn good system. It has its flaws for sure, but being able to filter by item/rarity/rolls would be a decent bit more fair. No CLUE how to make that work with Dark and Darker though, and BSG hopping in on the lawsuit train probably wouldn't be a good idea.

[severe merlin]

Personally I find the game fun because the game will always be about building up better gear. When you lose everything, you get to feel like the underdog again and build back up. That being said, as much as I dislike the current trade system, getting gear for your character will become increasingly unsustainable with the introduction of new classes

[visual pulsar]

I think an auction house would be a fine halfway. And it was my original desire

We have all been “naked” on a run and still found a loot piñata of someone with gear in a bad spot. Feels great lol.

[lone crescent]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
Why people are downvoting this???

[visual pulsar]

Sometimes it’s a grind, other times it’s luck. I just want every precaution for RMT and streamers having a free gear reset button eliminated or mitigated.

[severe merlin]

Being able to put up things for sale passively like in an auction house would be amazing. Not saying we can’t still have current trade, but I’d rather be able to keep playing without spending tedious amounts of time in trade chat when I just want to clear out stash space to keep playing the actual game

[true yacht]

I'm wondering if that will get better as they add more enemies as well. I play Ranger, so to find myself a bow, I know to always bum rush skelly archer spawns. Maybe zombies could drop more Rogue gear, Mummies could drop more Barb gear, etc etc.

[quick blade]

Escape from tarkov arguably the worst rmt and it has only auction house. so you are wrong.

[visual pulsar]

I upvoted. It’s because people enjoy projecting their opinion. There no reason it should offend anyone.

[meager jasper]

I agree. It already was to be perfectly honest. I felt distinctly like upward movement in very gear-focused classes in this PT before Trade was operational was next to impossible.

[lone crescent]

Yeah some people doesn't like blood or they feel sick seeing it, are really people who downvote that dumb?

[meager jasper]

The idea to completely remove trade without massive overhauls in how loot drops work is a kick in the teeth to fighters and wizards, both of which I play. There absolutely are classes which are not fun naked.

[visual pulsar]

As mentioned Auction house was my old thought. Now I personally want trading removed lol. I understand it’s an extreme to some but I would rather no RMT. Last Pt 1000 gold was $4 USD and it will get cheaper

[true yacht]

The Flea Market is very difficult to RMT trade with, considering the MASSIVE cost of adding an item to it at outrageous prices. Like adding a Red Keycard for 50 mil, but you have to pay 30 mil to put it up. Not sure how it is nowadays, but that's how it was when I was playing.

[visual pulsar]

Yeah I can def see that. I was a wizard player in PT 3 and no longer in Pt 4 because of the hard scaling with no items.

[severe merlin]

I don’t think anything as drastic as adding pay to win mechanics needs to be added before experimenting with other things

[visual pulsar]

I think all of the classes should be first balanced for naked, and gear shouldn’t facilitate more than a 30-50% increase in damage or mitigation. Right now it’s closer to 100-300% lower difference with each tier. Trading shot for shot as the same class is already a challenge at say 30-50% power difference. Gear is currently a bigger factor than skill when you hit the enemy 4 times (same class) and they hit your 1-2 times and you die. They walk away 50% HP

[gaunt cargo]

It's a very specific and personal request on top of touching on the coddled-gamer theme that this game is clearly steering away from.
Personally, I don't care if the add that, but you can see why people aren't thrilled with requests for dev effort to be spent undoing the dark and gritty nature of the game.

[meager jasper]

Your ideas of the game are straight up a different game then. And not one I want to be playing.

[visual pulsar]

I’d rather the slow combat pvp shine and be skill based combat that so heavily reliant on gear. That’s just@my opinion.

[visual pulsar]

It’s okay that we have different opinions. I miss a naked wizard being useful lol.

[meager jasper]

I don't want this to be a skill based game, I want it to be a gear based game, because gear is the whole point of the extraction genre. I consider that stance to be foolish on a very basic game design level.

[true yacht]

@meager jasper Are you being sarcastic...?

[visual pulsar]

Yes.. who would want to play a skill based video games 🙄

[brittle jasper]

if your a fool who cant hit your shots it should not matter if your in good gear you should lose

[meager jasper]

I'm all for making naked wizard more fun, but the increases as they are now in terms of tier power are very intentional and I think they should remain.

[visual pulsar]

Unfortunately I don’t think he is. Why would anyone want PVP to be skill based combat

[meager jasper]

You shouldn't have a chance at defeating someone in purple if your skills are relatively equal. Running at them naked with a knife.

[brittle jasper]

base gear should be buffed while going nude with nothing on should have much harsher penalty's

[visual pulsar]

Sorry couldn’t resist. That’s just wild to me. To me that is an extreme and backwards view. But hey, we have different opinions.

[lone crescent]

So it's ok to make the game unplayable for sone people.

I like blood, some people don't, removing blood it does nothing to the gameplay and i don't how it takes effort for the dev to make

[meager jasper]

You're the one claiming the satisfying way the game plays now is unsatisfying in some way. So no I don't think my view is backwards at all.

[true yacht]

That's not what's being said at all. If you run at a man naked with a knife, and hit them 12 times while they hit you once, you should win the fight. If that wasn't the case, how in any kind of hell would you punch up?

[visual pulsar]

A 50% higher win chance would still be massive…

[meager jasper]

You don't. You should die if you try to knife a fully equipped purple fighter with a rondel 12 times. That's not balance, that's the reality of gear mattering.

[visual pulsar]

That’s not what I said at all. You continue to try an impress your negative view of what I think about the game and project it as words I’ve said. I love the game, even as-is

[meager jasper]

The more you push against gear mattering the less valuable it becomes to pursue and the less satisfying.

[gaunt cargo]

Video games are art. If you don't like the artist's vision and they want to stick to it, then yes it's fine to exclude you. Games don't have to be for everyone.

[subtle maple]

Sir its just a effect

[visual pulsar]

I get that some players want to collect purple and enter a lowbie zone and be absolutly unstoppable god level that can take damage or be killed. But that’s fun for only 1 of the 18 players in that server.

[true yacht]

Punching up is one of the BIGGEST factors in extraction based games. All of them. Personally, when I played Tarkov, my absolute favorite moments were going in with a pistol, and killing someone with a well placed head eyes through their Killa Helm and 6A armor. By all means, they should have killed me, but I outskilled them with an expertly placed shot, so I got better loot for it.

[signal rain]

.suggestion [hear me out. With the new floor coming and being able to move from ground level down to the basement gave me a idea of how great this game could become. What if you started in the tavern to get a quest. Say there’s a troll in the dark forest that is attacking villagers. So you grab that quest kit up and go to the ruins. From the ruins you fight till the portal to the dark forest opens up. You and your boys jump in there and start the next match on dark forest. From there same thing right ppl and mobs till you get to the center where there are a number of cave holes that open up at last circle go down there and it’s like goblin cave where you gotta go down and kill the troll then get a blue portal back to tavern for quest reward. Idk if this is there plan but it seems like we could get dungeons and dragons the video game version with this. Am I only one thinking this ?]

[true yacht]

Wrong channel bb gril. Go up one

[visual pulsar]

A reasonable about of power scaling is fine. An unreasonable amount is exactly why player frustration has made countless number of people actually request for some form of gear ranking queue. Which I don’t want either but still

[lone crescent]

Then let's make the same for graphics, it's art so you are forced to play all on ultra, if your pc can't handle it's fine to exclude you.

How this make sense?

[meager jasper]

Run away. Plenty of classes can flee someone in purple out the box. And I think you genuinely don't understand that yes, it is fun. Plenty of the most fun games are designed around constant strife and that's the fun.

[brittle jasper]

if you NEED that motivation to bother getting better gear then thats on you and you should take yourself back to tiktok

[signal rain]

Ty tryin to figure this out

[true yacht]

Gotchu homie 😄

[visual pulsar]

Running away, then you get tagged by a throwing axe with Achilles . It’s like you didn’t play the game as a non-rogue

[gaunt cargo]

That's also fine. If they have a specific vision for how their game should be portrayed, they are free to stick to it. Again, I don't care if they add a blood toggle, I'm just explaining that they may consider blood an integral thematic element.

[brittle jasper]

making running away good results in lame boring games with little player interaction

[visual pulsar]

I get choosing@your battles and picking your fights. But to say “I don’t want the game to be skilled based. I only want it to be gear based” is a bigger hot take than mine lol

[meager jasper]

Then get better at running away. Barbarians were a non-threat in this PT to be honest. I played fighter and wizard mostly btw.

[visual pulsar]

I encourage you to go post on Reddit you think the game should not be skill based PvP and gear should be the only thing that matters. I’m interested in that opinion.

[visual pulsar]

Yikes…. Someone not up to date with the patches lol. Barbs a no -threat. Big big yikes

[meager jasper]

your populist, misinformed opinion does better on Reddit, which is a cesspit, and you think that matters to me

[true yacht]

Honestly, that statement gave me a stroke. I never thought someone would actually have that opinion. I know some people wanna pubstomp, but christ. Tell me you have the reflexes and decision making of a 90 year old man with a mental disability.

[visual pulsar]

I want to see your “pvp should not require skill” in a open forum.

[meager jasper]

I can only speak to my experience. I didn't see too many of them and those I did see didn't pose a problem.

[subtle maple]

I will never understand how someone can be against that, if you want you can just leave your blood on. Its an OPTION, no one is forcing anything

[brittle jasper]

your anti skill. if you want a game with no skill go roll some dice

[meager jasper]

You're making a strawman. I said that this game values gear over skill, and it does, and it should.

[visual pulsar]

So your confirmation bias is how the games works? Even bigger yikes 😱

[true yacht]

This game is in VERY EARLY alpha dude. Don't get used to the way it currently is. It is very much subject to change.

[meager jasper]

Don't bring up confirmation bias unless you're ready to look in a mirror my guy.

[brittle jasper]

a green vs a purple should still be a close fight where skill is a major factor the purple guy should not just auto win due to being 1 tier higher

[visual pulsar]

Well I’m going to bow out of this one. I think we have hit an absolute impasse. You lost me at “the game shouldn’t be skill based and only be gear based”

[true yacht]

At least that lad has confirmation.

[meager jasper]

No it really shouldn't. Otherwise there's no point to the game's economy And that's two tiers, have you even played the game?

[visual pulsar]

Yes, confirmation from my peers in an open forum. So terrible.

[meager jasper]

Confirmation to cringe redditors who think their armchair game designer opinion matters. I take it you've heard of such a thing as a circle-jerk?

[visual pulsar]

Well anyhow take care and. See you in the crypts my friend 👋 . Don’t get caught out by having similar gear to me.

[gaunt cargo]

So if I paint a painting, you would feel justified in asking me to do extra work to provide it to you with a color removed? And everyone else could do the same for their specific preference?

Why not a skeleton toggle button, or a spider toggle button, or one for people afraid of flames so torches are LED bulbs.

These sort of things effect such a small portion of the population, they aren't worth the effort to do or the sacrifice to the integrity of the game's theme.

[visual pulsar]

Because you might need skill. 💀

[meager jasper]

You're not the first fool to suggest that classes and mechanics should be flattened out and balanced to give everyone a fair chance regardless of the input they've put into acquiring gear. That design philosophy ruins games completely. Extraction genre games are not counter-strike where twitch reflexes matter. Here it's one part positioning and one part gear. Skill, outside of positioning, is a distant concern to most classes. The only class that even broaches on being high-skill is the casters who must learn to reflexively access spell wheels.

[weak vine]

If anyone is looking for a chill place for good and active teammates for next time the game is available shoot me a message I’ll send you an invite to our discord

[meager jasper]

And making the game more skill based will actively make it less fun. It will make advancement less meaningful because my green is essentially the same as my blue replacement among other glaring issues, like making loss less meaningful. Meanwhile every naked rogue will be as much a threat as every green rogue - and you won't be able to make judgement calls based on gear at all.

[subtle maple]

My brother in christ its just an effect. Dark and Dark would absolutely be same without it, it will only make the game more enjoyable for some people. A lot of games already have a toggle for blood. More acessibility = more people playing your game. This gatekeeping makes 0 sense
Trying to mock with "Spider button" is funny cuz Grounded even have an arachnophobia setting and its honestly incredible

[meager jasper]

Pretending that you're "oh so skilled" when you yourself note that at the moment gear is the factor in streamer's successes is insultingly misguided, as well. You're average, buddy, and when you find out that you can't get a leg up because your gear doesn't matter anymore and you can't extract anymore, and you're essentially wagering it over nothing, you'll leave the game same as anyone would. Where do you think you are? This isn't high level Starcraft or DOTA. You win the majority of fights on gear very much by design so you don't get strangled out the game.

Have you never played a game where you couldn't realistically play it because all the other players were already tryhards? A lot of fighting games are like that.

[gaunt cargo]

I already said I don't care if they add one. I'm answering their initial question of why it was downvoted. The request smacks of being an entitled baby, especially when they went to multiple chats to whine that their ultra specific request for additional dev effort wasn't well received.
At a certain point, you should consider going to a therapist instead of requesting resources from a small dev team embroiled in a legal battle.

[lone crescent]

Exactly

[meager jasper]

Blood is a distant concern and not worth the man-hours it would take to implement to remove it, even if it is small.

[visual pulsar]

"Have you never played a game where you couldn't realistically play it because all the other players were already tryhards? A lot of fighting games are like that." Funny how the irony is lost on you with your very sentiment that plays into the struggle of geared players if you enter a game months after released 10 fold moreso than picking up a new game and translating its learning curve into skill over time. Its wild. Really selective perspective you have.

[meager jasper]

No. Gear is designed to be lost and regained repeatedly in this game. There should be a constant struggle to get gear by design. And it should be easy to lose it because other people with gear will inevitably come across you.

You're the one suggesting that the skilled should automatically win all fights. That's cancer. That is how you absolutely demolish any community's new blood and make the game a esport.

[visual pulsar]

Which is the entirety of discussing RMT and removal of trading. Which was what triggered this entire discussion lol

[meager jasper]

Gear meanwhile, is transient, you will lose it. RMT and Trades don't change that. Even if you buy it, you're still having to replace it, constantly.

[visual pulsar]

Again you put words im my mouth. I said instead of a 200-300% power damage/mitigation gap. I suggested 50% at max. To keep the game still skillful. 50% is massive but it just didnt resonate with you

[visual pulsar]

$4 for 1000g my dude lol. Anyone can drop chump changes and make death moot. So your point is flaccid

[subtle maple]

bro you're the one triggered about a suggestion on a suggestion chat
if you don't care then please stop acting like a weirdo, why you bother so much. Maybe you're the one that need professional help

[visual pulsar]

I take it this is your first extraction game and did not play much Tarkov yes? @meager jasper

[meager jasper]

It's 4 dollars and risks you getting banned. I'm guessing they will inevitably be moderating the trade chats as well. Meanwhile you're suggesting only a 50% window in gear effectiveness. That means 50% for ALL purples vs maybe 30-40 for blues. That means that any individual purple gets you less than 10% effectiveness. That's a difference of a few points of damage per purple gear vs a gray knife. Do you even understand the math you're suggesting?

That is worthless to anyone.

[visual pulsar]

Thats 1 piece of gear...

lol. The entire point of gear is to stack the stats you want. so yeah if I have 5 pieces of purple on. We go shot for shot with the same class. I kill you in 2 shots, you hit me twice and im at 50% HP still. THATS A BIG DIFFERENCE lol. Maths

[meager jasper]

That's not a big difference, you're literally suggesting an all gray barbarian can kill a fully armed endgame fighter in two swings regardless of circumstances.
No. Just no.

[visual pulsar]

Because its so widely requested and IM does a great job at designing for the community we will end up seeing either a power gap closed on gear/classes or rankedgear/queue .

[meager jasper]

The power gap should be closed, but not by making the game skill based - By closing the disbalance between classes at their appropriate tiers.

[visual pulsar]

Thats not waht I said... did you even read what I wrote? Im suggesting the fighter has a massive advantage, but is not an Immortal walking being of why the hell am I even qued up with you..i just lost all of the greens/blues I had because your gear is a different color and maybe you even bought it with RMT

[meager jasper]

You actively don't want to play an extraction game and that much is obvious. You aren't even doing the math. I just gave you an exact example of what would happen if the differences were that small.

[gaunt cargo]

You're replying on someone else's behalf and you have no more argument. Bye.

[visual pulsar]

Listen, side note. When you manipulate someone elses argument or expression, it works against you in 2 ways. #1 it makes me not trust you or your opinion, because it now comes off as bias. and #2 it makes you look inflexible, which is a terrible trait to have in a discussion, it makes you look like you just want to argue and not contribute to an end goal. Which I think both of us want the following in the game: No RMT, Balanced Classes, Purposeful Gear, Meaningful Pvp

[meager jasper]

50% overall possibility in difference in power is not purposeful gear. You don't want that, you want "meaningful pvp".

[visual pulsar]

No you reduced it down to a single piece of gear. As it is already if you have 1 purple piece on you arent going to have a significant advantage unless its damage and youre ranged lol

[visual pulsar]

It is the difference between a level 10 and level 20 player in any other comparable scale of gaming power... which is a lot.

[meager jasper]

So then you actively think full purples should be mandatory to get any power increase and only a maximum of 50%. That's awful

[visual pulsar]

I think youre having trouble understanding 50% of anything lol.

[meager jasper]

Hurr durr stop manipulating my argument
Ad hominem within three lines.
Get a new game.

[visual pulsar]

Hur durr? Relax, now youre big mad and just need to chill

Lets let you cool off. This has been heavy on you.

[meager jasper]

Seems like you're the one who's mad at being called out for not understanding basic math. Or you're lying about it and fully want gray barbs to kill purple fighters. Either way your position is foolish.

And I do mean all purple fighters by the way not just 1-gear differences. That's well within the realm of reason for a barb dealing with only a 50% decrease to their attack. That's three swings.