suggestion-discussion

[placid zinc]

It's classic rpg duh

[atomic mountain]

Doing bosses requires so many arrows before retrieval can take place. Them taking up inventory space just for that one class is a huge inconvenience.
But immersion arguments miss the mark most of the time imo. Viability and player choice is a better framework for your proposal

[meager jasper]

No thanks. I'll take class development over a DCC star sign. I don't think that has any business being in a pvp dungeon crawler. Not everything in TTRPGs fits in this style of game.

[placid zinc]

Rpg customization is what will make or break the longevity zennypoo

[burnt lynx]

I think you can kill the bosses with the 30 arrows that fit into the Quiver if you bring an appropriate bow. So it is just like I am saying, it rewards skilled players

[rich kiln]

i dont mind having so many arrows 60 should be fine but having to reload while having 60 arrows in my inventory is my problem

[meager jasper]

Action-RPG style customization, maybe, but not TTRPG customization fluff like what you suggested.

[burnt lynx]

Also, if you don't exceed 50 arrows, you will be able to bring more

[placid zinc]

It snot fluff. Bane and boon systems have the most depth. You balance your bane and boons how you see fit. You can choose zero or 5 of each.

[atomic mountain]

I guess I’m kind of split on it because if you can do the boss with 30 arrows and not rely on the Ranger to do all the damage with 100+ because you understand that he has limited space that he wants to use in his backpack for just arrows that it encourages people to fight bosses more as a team instead of just kite until the Ranger kills it

[burnt lynx]

Exactly, but you get that my suggestion opens up the possibility to balance this exact issue by changing the amount of stackable arrows in the normal inventory and the quiver.

[atomic mountain]

I think a big issue is probably the cost and the recuperation of that cost because you can’t store them so if you bring 60 arrows for a boss but you only leave the instance with 20 or 30 for the next run you’re losing gold and that cost might not get recuperated if you don’t get any loot to drop for you.
I’d certainly like to see arrows and bolts able to be stashed for later use

[burnt lynx]

I am not quite sure if you understood the suggestion

My suggestion doesn't really change the amount of arrows that can be brought in or taken out, it just makes inventory management easier as most arrows go into that fixed slot

[meager jasper]

I fully expect the devs to add an additional backpack system given it's already part of the UI. It's likely we'll get a quiver bag that's bigger than others but only holds ammo or something.

[burnt lynx]

Exactly, that's what I am saying!

[meager jasper]

Of course that will just shunt the problem. Then it'll be a choice to bring a quiver and not have extra inventory. But at least it doesn't directly penalize your actual inventory.

[burnt lynx]

You don't bring the Quiver as I suggest it, It is an additional slot in the inventory

[meager jasper]

I would've expected it to just be equipment, but maybe.

[rich kiln]

quiver could go in the cloak slot

[last onyx]

you ape I meant spectate a friend only when you wait for him/her so finish the game.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah i get it. I’m not for or against it, just talking about some of the other issues I found. Like not being able to stash them and the case use of more than 30 arrows.

[meager jasper]

Bags within bags is a tarkov thing right lol?

[burnt lynx]

That's also a great addition. They could then make a standard quiver that you always get, and then theres upgrades to that... green, blue...

[burnt lynx]

True! The stash restriction makes 0 sense!

[hearty badge]

Upgrade quivers are dumb. Just one regular one seems fine and gives the class a touch to its unique identity

[rich kiln]

nah standard quiver holds 30 arrows, white 35, all the way up to gold that holds like 70 or 75

gives value to having a quiver and if you dont have one it could just take up standard inventory space

[hearty badge]

That's... dumb, and imbalanced. Reminds me of of when TF2 used to give soldier and demoman more than 30 rounds.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I don’t know it’s higher rarity quivers would need to be a thing so soon, IF they wanted to put one in. One size would do to start. See how it goes and go from there.

[hearty badge]

Giving Ranger 30 rounds in the quiver idea seems fine enough on it's own, and they can carry the rest of their arrows in the inventory.

[meager jasper]

I don't like having limited stash, by the way. While the topic of the stash is up.

[burnt lynx]

I think they should make upgrades for stash, double the stash for like 1k gold... But pls just NO BAGS INSIDE BAGS

[atomic mountain]

I think stash being limited is fine, but it disproportionately affects other classes adversely. Fighters def suffer the most in limited stash because of their build changes requiring different weapons and armor alike

[tulip venture]

having a limited stash is a good thing maybe not so limited but an infinite stash would mean alot of players would never use gear

[tulip venture]

fighters definitely get screwed

[burnt lynx]

Yeah.. there should be some limit for sure.. But at the moment its not enough for me

[meager jasper]

The problem with the stash is that it would not actually be that difficult to fill past 5 days. It needs expansion, one way or another. Tarkov does the bag inside bag thing, but we can at least do something better and just pay for upgrades to the size or something.

[atomic mountain]

I think the bags inside of bags thing could be a cool idea(for questing/crafting ) but I would much rather see other stash tabs specifically for armor or gold etc

[burnt lynx]

The size of the stash is fine for playtests, but if I was playing the same character for more than a weak, I would definitely like to enhance the size of my stash

[hearty badge]

Fighters got screwed this playtest??... Where? 🤔

[meager jasper]

Purely with stash. The stash can't store full sets of gear nearly as efficiently as the couple of backup weapons other classes need.

[tulip venture]

and im sure the game will i think it just wasnt a concern for any of the playtests. im sure the actual content of the game is their concern

[meager jasper]

And Fighter wants full sets more than anyone. It lives or dies on its armor.

[hearty badge]

Sounds like a decent trade off for still being one of the most effective classes all around.

[meager jasper]

Most effective? Fighter is middling tbh. It's the easiest class. Its only real high-skill upper-tier thing might be parry-riposting imo.

[hearty badge]

Maybe in the 3 man castle, sure. In goblin cave, just an insane nutso class.

[burnt lynx]

Honestly, most fighters just run into every fight they see, cause they are fighters... Most people don't play the game to survive, and that's why they lose their shit. It's not that hard to get out and keep a good set of items, if you play a bit defensively in the right moments

[atomic mountain]

Yes and no. The fighters class appeal is that they are versatile but the problem with having so many options is that you don’t have any more options for the storage of alternate gear sets for different builds so it discourages people to explore the class in a sense. Which I think we can all agree is a bad thing. If you have such a versatile class that can change up its build on the fly you want people to explore that

[tribal patio]

No other class is as gear dependant as the fighter

[meager jasper]

I ran fighter and wizard this test. I was fully playing to survive and get money, rather than as a focus on pvp. At some point you will lose your gear. It just happens.

[atomic mountain]

Perhaps on the full release of the game when builds become more in-depth and questing gets fully flushed out there will be a class specific quest for the fighter where they can get increased armor and weapons storage. Perhaps rangers to get a ammo storage box or as an additional stash tab, etc for each class respectively

[amber solstice]

I think they are basically eliminating as many possible commonalities as they can that Nexon are arguing about. They are doing it hastily with basic placeholders until they can flesh it out at a later date. They replaced it entirely with the lantern, but oddly kept it in as a weapon. Maybe they turn it into a fire damage weapon eventually but at this point they could just remove it. Maybe they just don't want to let Nexon be able to force anything out of their game entirely, but it seemed like they were willing to completely scrap the Tavern. All of the UI changes just seemed like stuff quickly down placeholders that will get tweaked to their level of quality soon. They know a lot of the changes were downgrades, but they wanted to keep their word and not let Nexon prevent them from keeping their word.

[tulip venture]

and i cant wait for that i also hope theres a well made crafting system like potion brewing etc

[hearty badge]

Yikes, because I play Dark & Darker to... harvest herbs, apparently

[tulip venture]

yikes? are you anti content? having a crafting system doesnt mean you have to use it

[atomic mountain]

I guess you could view it in that light and it’s something that definitely crossed my mind as well. I think they just wanted to showcase the new gathering area that they made for ruins, And also wanted to showcase a new UI aesthetic. The utility not displaying in boxes was the most obvious change that would undoubtedly support your take though.

[lucid root]

going to need a few muels just to store all my crafting shit

[burnt lynx]

Maybe something simple like, you can convert 3 white potions into one green?

[tulip venture]

yeah it doesnt have to be complicated

[hearty badge]

I don't know why it's everyone's favorite fantasy to add crafting complexity when Dark & Darkers broader appeal is the simplicity of just being able to run back into the dungeons as fast as possible, win or lose.

[burnt lynx]

True!

[atomic mountain]

I wouldn’t mind something like this. It would allow you to consolidate inventory space and upgrade consumable rarity as you increase skill+gear level, whilst also providing a gold sink as I’d assume it would not be free to do

[meager jasper]

I don't think crafting will actually add too much. Cobalt and Rubysilver are completely useless imo too. As far as have a system to random-roll fixed-rarity items like that, I don't like it very much.

[lucid root]

kind of like redeeming silver coins for gold at the treasurer just with potions at the alchemist

[tulip venture]

as much as i love the game i dont think is has longevity without additional content there already is the mining crafting system what do you thing will give the game more staying power?

[burnt lynx]

If they make 10 more playtest, the game will most likely be washed up before its release XD

[atomic mountain]

They’re not super useful right now but With a couple tweaks like allowing you to see the final active stats on the gear would fix most of this. Adjusting the crafting cost would further dial it in

[meager jasper]

Implying I wouldn't come back for every single one thirsty.

[hearty badge]

What will give the game more staying power is actually making the classes and their interactions as fun as possible. If you want to play crafting a gathering games, WoW and a handful of other MMO's offer that as a part-time job. At least the mining in D&D makes sense, and is fun because it forces interactions in unique rooms.

[tulip venture]

im pretty certain this was the last one

[upper sonnet]

I just hope the Questing system doesn't make you want to die like Tarkov's The Questing system in Tarkov sucks so much enjoyment out of the game it's crazy.

[tulip venture]

same the ultra hard quests were not fun

[meager jasper]

Anyway yeah, according to their intentions previously they wanted to release to EA at some point at the end of April/May. Obviously that can't happen now, but that means once it's resolved it's likely we will get EA if anything, rather than another playtest.

[atomic mountain]

Probably an irrational fear lmao.
Based on what I’ve seen I think they value simplicity and increasing your overall time in game compared to prep time

[tulip venture]

i mean they still could in may if they made their own launcher and website to sell the game

[meager jasper]

That would likely get them shut down by the courts. At least temporarily.

[amber fiber]

Ideas for crafting

1. Collect silver coins like crazy in order to silver a weapon/ammo cost scaling with the size of weapon. 200 for a dagger, 400 for swords/onehanded weapons, 600 for two handers. Silvered weapons deal bonus damage to the undead and hell enemies like flying imps from hell.
2. Reagents for potions/potion upgrades. Could turn healing potions into greater/superior healing potions and the same thing for clarity and protection. Poison weapons/ammo could also be something interesting to explore though it should only last one run or in the case of ranged ammo 1 hit per arrow/bolt.
3. Leather scraps for leather armor/coin pouches and metal scraps for armor and weapons that would serve as something better than the base starter gear. (you could choose to hoard gold AND materials in order to get better starts)

[meager jasper]

It also doesn't look good in court.

[hearty badge]

🤢🤮

[upper sonnet]

There's nothing they can really do to stop them with an Injunction tbh and we'll just have to wait and see if they're gonna issue it.

[atomic mountain]

I’d wager the quest objectives will be simple yet slightly challenging to accomplish. The rewards should be different based on class/character though. Purchasable upgrades/consumables like:
Armor/gear stash tab for fighter,
Quiver purchasable item for Ranger
Spellbook always available for Wizard
Campfires for Clerics
Etc

[tulip venture]

yeah and they haven't said any plans publicly which i suspect they are doing to give them no time to respond

[meager jasper]

As for the time. I think even if they did plan an early release, now that's going to be pushed back since they're dealing with a different environment and will be looking for solutions for their DDOS problem and their balance/map issues now rather than going straight to EA smoothly.

[amber solstice]

I'm down for as many new systems as they want as long as everyone isn't required to do them all. But it's rare for devs to build systems and only want a small part of the community to actually use them. They generally want them fully incorporated into the game. There is very little reason to devote resources for very selective content when they can make content for everyone.

I hope they dance on the edge of freedom more than most games do, but that's my own personal preference. It feels like we have it now, but that may very well disappear and never come back. I don't enjoy crafting or questing or arbitrarily tedious gameplay for the sake of time sinks. There are far more people that want all of those in as large quantities as possible. I love grinding when the grind itself it actually rewarding. I want more gameplay oriented games and less stories that are facilitated via gameplay. There are seemingly more people that enjoy good plot/story/lore. Popular opinion definitely show a lot of people want games on rails with all the bells and whistles.

[meager jasper]

On the note of wizard, I put in the Wizard chat but I think they need an extreme weapon overhaul tbh. At the moment only two of their weapons are even viable, and the tome outshines the orb/dagger considerably. The sword an staff lack a magic bonus and basically any place as a result - Even ignoring the sword being significantly weaker than a basic longsword.

[hearty badge]

After seeing the disastrous results of this playtest, I would much rather wait a longer or extended period of time for a more sensible and thought out test. I'm very passionate about this game, and given their circumstance I'd much rather be patient than to basically take multiple steps backwards.

[upper sonnet]

Wizard definitely needs love in EA when Warlock comes out.

[meager jasper]

I also think the spellbook needs a small nerf to bring it in line with the other upgraded magical weapons. My thoughts on wizard are probably that:
Staff should be the slowest and also the strongest focus and have a large innate magic bonus. Keep it extremely mediocre in melee.
Tome might remain the fastest, but should have reduced damage output, currently it is both the strongest and fastest in every way.
Orb is in a relatively good spot, and needs very little update, but I think wizard itself needs slightly better damage output in order to make a melee wizard decent. They over-nerfed wizard with a 15% magic reduction this PT.
Crystal Sword is one of the worst contenders since it's practically the iconic weapon for a wizard in dark and darker and it's nearly worthless. Wizards have an innate negative to its physical damage. It needs to be brought up to be comparable in damage to something like a longsword if you ask me, but should not have an innate magic bonus to compensate. It should force you to want to go into melee while the rondel remains the hybrid build.

[atomic mountain]

The swords magical melee dmg portion does scale with power though so it has it’s unique appeal. But the staff definitely doesn’t have any appeal in the lineup. Needs base spell magic dmg higher than than the book imo, IF it’s to also remain slow and awkward to use.

[upper sonnet]

Swords could be easily fixed if they just adjusted the Physical/Magic damage split. It's less than 50/50 now. If it was 30/70 Physical and Magic it'd be usable.

[hearty badge]

I always figured that at some point, wizard would be optimized to have a route for basically a spellblade? Ignite already gives it that feel I think.

[meager jasper]

Maybe spellblade will be more viable once we have a class-progression system, but at the moment there's no reason to use the crystal sword over a rondel. A rondel dramatically improves the value of ignite due to its sheer speed.

[hearty badge]

👍

[upper sonnet]

Also for weapons Wizard should have: Kris Dagger 100%

[atomic mountain]

100%. Questing for useful additions would be awesome of they’re not complex or arduous. Time sinks for lifetime/limited run cosmetics between wipes would be fine.

[burnt lynx]

Listen, Nerf all classes and BUFF ranger! I know you are thinking I am wrong, but you guys don't know SHIT about the game!

[upper sonnet]

It's pretty bad on Rogue anyway but it'd be good for Wizard to have a bit of variety. Plus cool cultist blade.

[hearty badge]

🤢🤮

[meager jasper]

In addition, because a rondel can be used with an orb, it can be used while benefiting from its magical damage increase. A crystal sword can only benefit from its own magic-damage bonuses rolled because of rarity, while a rondel can also benefit from both its orbs innate number, its rolls, and the dagger's rolls. All of which stack on ignite.

[tulip hill]

while I agree Ranger could use a touch up, I'm 100% sure the solution isn't to nerf everyone else while also buffing ranger

[atomic mountain]

It lacks range though. Sword makes pve safer in that regard

[amber solstice]

Turning the staff melee into shooting 1 slow projectile a relatively short distance may be a interesting way to make it significantly better and actually have a purpose that wouldn't be broken in pvp.

[upper sonnet]

Dagorb would be in a fine place if they unnerfed Wizard's Agi. That Agi nerf hurt it pretty hard. It's why Book was meta now.

[meager jasper]

Yeah but the orb is an actual decent focus, if slow. It can cast a strong magic missile, and that's really what a wizard uses to clear mobs. The sword isn't a good focus either, which is a big problem. It has the worst magic-cast animation for interruption and is one of the slower focii.

[upper sonnet]

I think C Sword has hands down the slowest casting speed actually lmao

[meager jasper]

I thought it was similar to the staff atm? But yeah that wouldn't surprise me.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah true. Sword is definitely not optimal for spell casting on mobs or pvp, but it does have it’s own use case for conserving spell uses without being useless for mob clear (like the staff)

[meager jasper]

At best I think this makes it (in its current form) a sidearm, though. Which isn't... very good.

[upper sonnet]

It's just somewhat usable in melee (mostly for killing Mobs tbh) so it avoids the fate of the Staff. For values: 0,625 cast speed for Staff, 0,95 cast speed for C Sword lmao

[atomic mountain]

It’s the second worst, right? lol

[meager jasper]

Mhm. I've used a crystal sword (and even a regular non-magic staff) for my second slot from time to time to break pots and kill mobs.

[atomic mountain]

(C. Sword) Could be worse, but it does a specific job well enough to not be trash

[trim maple]

ADD AMBIENT SOUNDS AROUND THE GOBLIN MAGE'S PROJECTILES!!! I dunno if this was forgotten about or intentional but either way its a necessary level of feedback that is absent from this enemy. Being able to hear where the projectile is stops players from seemingly being killed by nothing with no feedback. Ironmace pls fix!

[upper sonnet]

No it's THE worst. I think that's fine though, they should just make it useful for PvP instead of just being a Mob clearer.

[meager jasper]

I just really want a spellblade to be viable imo. Especially since the wizard has so little in the way of any sort of gear customization, I don't think any of its four focii should be bad.

At the moment it's tome or nothing at range. Or orb+rondel if you want to do a little melee once you close. At least when we're talking pure viability in pvp.

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I would definitely like to see that as well maybe bring up it’s magic dmg split slightly or something. But if you’re running 10 spell and you don’t have a campfire on hand the crystal sword is definitely what you’re going to use to clear mobs. Over anything.

[upper sonnet]

Staff 100% should be reworked to have some sort of Cantrip. It fills no niche that C-Sword wouldn't.

[meager jasper]

There's no good reason to not use a tome to clear mobs and have an orb and rondel in your off-slot for your shanking shenanigans if you can afford both. Except perhaps that the knife cannot break barrels.

[hearty badge]

No comment for Wizard stuff. I've never been enthusiastic enough to master that class, but it definitely seems that the class continues to dog new learners of the role. It seems like already functional Wizard players still know what they're doing.

[meager jasper]

I was wizard in the last PT and I definitely felt it went way down in power this PT. I think a lot of wizards also seem to have left to play rogue just because we got nerfed so badly. I ended up doing a lot of fighter instead.

[upper sonnet]

Wizard still was good geared, last hours me and my bud were tearing shit up.

[atomic mountain]

I fee like just giving it the highest base spell dmg would provide it with it’s unique appeal.

[hearty badge]

Rogue got nonsense class buffs that should be reevaluated entirely potentially.

[meager jasper]

I like the idea of it being the big spooky artillery-magic-casting spell stick.

[upper sonnet]

But yeah they keep nerfing base wizard so much and making them basically unplayable ungeared.

[atomic mountain]

See I actually enjoyed the route that they went with the Rogue, But I’d also like to see them buff everybody’s base kit to make each class fun to start with.

[meager jasper]

It was nearly across the board in terms of power. Substantial individual spell nerfs in terms of both damage and casting speed, as well as an innate -15% overall reduction in damage from will being reduced.

[upper sonnet]

They 100% need to undo the Will Nerf and then revert Mana Surge.

[meager jasper]

I honestly want them to revert the changes to wizard hard, because I think they just got spooked by some of the high-roller stats in the last PT. Ultimately wizard didn't do too well except as a buff-bot in that setting, and elsewhere wasn't actually that scary in terms of numbers.

[atomic mountain]

The answer to Wizard is nerf the dmg scaling, not the whole class

[meager jasper]

And the spooky buffs that made them really strong had nothing to do with their damage output. Those nerfs to invis and haste should stay.

[hearty badge]

I think the biggest offender is probably double jump, which makes their chasing potential skyrocket. When I can no longer juke and evade properly as a skilled player against someone equally skilled with an insane purple build, it just rips the fun right out. I'm not sure what the answer is tbqh.

[upper sonnet]

They did that too anyway, less gear with flat Magic Damage bonuses. More just had additional or Percentages.

[atomic mountain]

I definitely agree that it should probably have an internal cool down on that ability, But I liked seeing them do something fun with the class like being able to pick pocket invisible and stuff

[regal lotus]

Their thought may have been that with being able to sit for spells, it is a partial buff. but yea base wizard is too nerfed and geared wizard is still strong so I think the nerfs were poorly done

[meager jasper]

I actually really want wizard to be a big glass cannon, and feel it isn't anymore. It's more like a glass ranger, as someone else said.

[upper sonnet]

I honestly think they should just remove Weapon and Magic damage bonuses entirely as enchantments. Just have Additional and true.

[lucid root]

+1 will or knowledge to wizard hat and wizard shoes 😏

[regal lotus]

Well I think if you bring campfires you can skip meditate and run the insta cast abillity which is very very strong.

Get any bit of spacing, fast cast and turn around and you are doing some pretty broken stuff

[meager jasper]

The hat needs something innate, it's otherwise the worst hat. But it shouldn't be, because it has the most aesthetic appeal...

[atomic mountain]

It’s understandable because balance isn’t really a super huge concern right now so early on but I have faith that on full release down the road they’ll dial it in proper with what they Nerf and what they buff

[upper sonnet]

We need more Wizard drip. Bigger hats

[meager jasper]

This

[atomic mountain]

And bigger beards

[tulip hill]

problem is the more geared you are the less value the ability to instant cast is, since your cast time will be dramatically reduced by your gear anyways

[atomic mountain]

Seasonal cosmetics for hats and beards?! Lmao

[meager jasper]

I'd buy every damn one.

[lucid root]

starter kit is Torn Wizard Hat, the next immediate upgrade is just a common wizard hat, gives +1 will, make it kind of hard to get in shops as well

[atomic mountain]

I would love to see them do a sort of battle pass like deep rock galactic does. It’s unlockable by grinding out the seasonal pass which is FREE or you can purchase it with in game currency later on down the line if you missed out.

[tulip hill]

Dunce cap wizard hat when

[atomic mountain]

[meager jasper]

I'd still wear it. And run into the dungeon otherwise naked.

[atomic mountain]

I think all of the class specific gear should have some sort of base stat on it like the padded leggings with knowledge and will. (Not that those leggings are class specific but just as an example) just my two cents. Otherwise what is the point in wizard she was over Lightfoot boots?

[meager jasper]

Yeah I agree. It seems like wizard shoes are just laced turnshoes or whatever they are called but arbitrarily for wizards

[atomic mountain]

And it would also probably fix the “naked” issue for the people that harp on that. Not a major issue imo, but yeah. Base stats on class gear would be A OK with me

[lucid root]

spellbook and boots runs were some of the most fun i had

[meager jasper]

I don't really think it's much of an issue myself. Though I do think the lightest basic cloth gear shouldn't give you a movement penalty at all.

[atomic mountain]

I did enjoy some of the new armors that they came out with like the facemask for the Rogues. Makes it easier to tell classes apart at first glance. (Ex: duel wield fighter in leather vs Rogue)

[tulip hill]

Speaking of base gear, anyone else find it strange that the wizard and cleric starting chest slot has more armor (plus magic resist) compared to what everyone else gets?

[lucid root]

the agility pants, yeah. shouldn't be any penalty

[meager jasper]

grumbles in barbarian

[atomic mountain]

Yeah I definitely find that odd. I wouldn’t mind Barbs having a northern tunic in base kit and fighters having more than the worst cloth starting armor

[atomic mountain]

I agree that cloth should have a lower penalty than leathers.

[hearty badge]

Did Bard gear have any benefits at all? I'm just thinking to myself how much worse was there's by comparison to all these other talking points

[meager jasper]

Not enough for them to buy it in their trade chat, let me tell you...

[lucid root]

also being confined to rawhides/padded leggings/robes kind of makes findind upgrades pretty hard, without trade we'd be toast

[atomic mountain]

Rapier starting weapon was nice to see. I forgot what the armor was as I only played it a couple times myself to check out the song mechanic

[tulip hill]

pretty sure they start with the same armor as rogue and fighter

[hearty badge]

Rapier is okay - Again, I think the biggest issue was Lute being a weapon over a utility, and hand crossbow not being purchasable. With that said, Rapier+Hand crossbow was some of the best raid moments I had.

[atomic mountain]

I think the lute should be a weapon slot. Did anyone find higher rarity lutes though?

[hearty badge]

No, which is why I think it needs to be utility. The Lute is hands down the worst weapon in the game.

[tulip hill]

now that you mention it no, I don't remember seeing any lutes

[atomic mountain]

Yeah but I think they could fix that if they just included better lutes in the loot pool (slightly better play speed or song effectiveness maybe) It’s Not meant to be a melee weapon but I think it does serve a purpose to take up a weapon slot

[hearty badge]

If it were a good weapon, I would agree. But it isn't

I'm pretty sure the lute shares the same attack range as a dagger, except 5x slower and weaker.

[tulip hill]

I think if they had different instruments, similar to the different spellcasting items, it taking the weapon slot is fine

[atomic mountain]

Flute for Bard when?! 🤣

[hearty badge]

Flute would basically be spell tome? 🤔

[tulip hill]

Bongos

[atomic mountain]

I’m sure as the game progresses they’ll make adjustments like giving the lute the ability to melee albeit weak dmg but a flute is only for song playing but is faster, etc (Bongos lmfao yes plz better song effect but louder?!)

[lucid root]

since torches are equip slot now what do you think about them getting loot stats like item rarity, gold quantity that stuff

i never really thought about loot stats until bards wanderer perk

[atomic mountain]

I could see this in the future. Perhaps the higher rarity of the more likely it is that when you throw it it doesn’t unequip but it’s also not retrievable? Idk. I’d have to chew on that

[tulip hill]

interesting, so looting with a torch out lets you find better stuff? makes sense to me

[atomic mountain]

Torches with active stats, hmm 🤔

[tulip hill]

talk about stat sticks 🙃

[lucid root]

i was going to say extra burn damage, but we'd have francisca axe on steroids

[kindred crane]

Was High Roller shorter in duration than prior playtests? I know there's less time in the dungeon than regular mode, but it felt way too "rushed" even from my recollection of last playtest. Also, were there less exits this time than last?

Personally think high roller should be identical to regular mode (even including kill feeds), but with the only real difference being the gold ante and having your competitors volunteering themselves to be in a mode where you expect to fight better geared and better skilled players.

My party would literally steamroll normal lobbies. 8+ kills each, no party deaths, 10+ games a night. But in High Roller we'd struggle to find escapes while still having fun engaging in team fights. One major teamfight was half the bloody time in the dungeon

[atomic mountain]

The change was how the circle displayed on the map.

[tulip hill]

tbf frani axes can be stacked up to 3 each and take up less inventory space and are utility slot items

[atomic mountain]

Short version: old circle outline would remain in place when red circle closed on it.
New white circle overlay moves immediately but the red zone remains paused until it moves again.
I prefer the old version myself.

[lucid root]

true, though you'd want to pick up your torch pretty immediately so it doesn't get stolen

[kindred crane]

thats a pretty weird modification for high roller. not sure of what the benefit is other than more confusion/frustration.

[tulip hill]

something interesting to note is torches and lanterns can apply things like rupture

[atomic mountain]

As far as I’m aware it’s not highroller specific. It was just an overall change. But it definitely catches more people offguard than the previous display of the circle

[tulip hill]

I definitely remember the white circle staying put until the red caught up to it while I was in the ruins

[atomic mountain]

Yeah it remains in its new location but as soon as the red circle meets up with it the new white circle changes locations even though the swarm doesn’t continue until it starts up again

[kindred crane]

Huh guess I just didn't notice the change itself; just the effect. Even if we camped middle-ish area of the circle all game it was a struggle to find 3 exits on HR if we spent even a bit of time in a fight.

I just want HR to be regular mode but with epic fights against good oponents. Not a speedrun to find exits in 5 minutes hoping you dont get tied up in a 3 minute fight

[tulip hill]

ah, misunderstood what you said

[atomic mountain]

I didn’t really do a whole lot of testing on this playtest for the portal spawn behavior. I’m not sure if it changed but the initial escape portals seem to spawn sparsely around the edge of the circle more often than they spawn in Center. ( until the final circle)

[deep marsh]

Hey just thought I'd pop in and ask what you guys think about this idea:

So in other roguelike dungeon crawlers you have to identify weapons, and that's a whole mechanic not knowing what something's gonna be until you use it enough, or you use an item to identify it, with some classes having a higher stat to identify things quicker. I think this would be great for DND, seeing as it's already kind of a thing with the goblin merchant, but I definitely think there should be a "curse" effect on a small percentage of items, as a penalty for equipping random items willy nilly, that binds the item to the player, and generally has worse stats compared to a non cursed counterpart.

Do you guys think this would work for DND? Or would it be too much of a change?

[tulip hill]

I do believe item identification is a planned feature, not sure about curses

[lucid root]

highroller was too tough for me this playtest doing solo wizard, my spells felt like nerf darts

[tulip hill]

more like nerfed darts 🙃

[atomic mountain]

There was a suggestion video made on YouTube about adding negative stat modifiers to tiers of weapons to help balance them a little more. I’m trying to find it right now but it might be a good idea.

[meager jasper]

Yeah this is already in the works, as I believe it says on Knowledge or something like that as a tooltip that it increases the speed of identification? Naturally we don't know exactly how that works yet though.

[quaint briar]

Isnt the movement penalty of certain weapons plus the inclusion of weight in the future already the necessaey debuff

[tulip hill]

I think what they are saying is as you get higher rarity items, they get more positive stats but also get a negative stat or two, meaning you give up things in one area to have better stats in another area

[gaunt cargo]

Kind of a "cursed" weapon type situation.

[tulip hill]

How do you guys feel about the idea of them having like 3 or 4 stair wells that lead down rather than having red portals?

[atomic mountain]

Found the video @deep marsh

https://youtu.be/DElLof3AA3I
(The only issue I see is it’ll take a lot of work initially to balance each tier so that generally a green is still better than a starting item even given the negative affixes)

[hearty badge]

🤢🤮

[rugged eagle]

They've already talked about object identification being a planned feature

[hearty badge]

Yucky 🤢🤮

I suppose that invites everyone who likes Diablo II

[quaint briar]

Its dnd inspired

[hearty badge]

🤢🤮 More senseless tedium, great

[rugged eagle]

It kinda makes sense I don't want to have to identify every green I come across though it should be reserved for high quality items

[quaint briar]

Maybe identifying will affect atfixes and rarity

[minor sonnet]

I have some suggestion about the game, where do i write my idea ?

[rugged eagle]

My first thought where they'd be going with it would be cursed/normal items since that's the usual use for it you risk getting cursed if you equip random items without identifying

[hearty badge]

Just lol

[minor sonnet]

ah well i killed a lot of people in goblin caves and all that was left to loot from a person was soul and i tought there should be something to do with them like getting the enchantment u want on a weapon like idk 20 hearts or souls however u call em for 1+ will,strenght etc. other stats that are strong such as true dmg to be more expensive

[atomic mountain]

You’re more than welcome to share your idea here if you wanna discuss it with other people. Currently the #d-and-d-suggestions channel and it’s #make-suggestion tool/channel are down temporarily. I do not know when they will be re-opened for submissions. You can PM a Tavern Master and ask though. I’d love to have them back asap.

[rugged eagle]

Let me revive people so I can kill them again

[minor sonnet]

bruh

[minor sonnet]

Understood

[tulip hill]

Bad idea: Let warlocks consume the souls of other players for some kind of benefit

[rugged eagle]

They will most certainly do something more with the souls but I don't think warlock will get any interaction with them that's more of a necromancer type of thing

[grave torrent]

Make vampire: they take damage over time if they have a passive skill on for life steal that works on mobs as well and get a small duration bonus after kills yes yes

[tulip hill]

Warlocks in a lot of games, including some warlocks in dungeons and dragons, have strong necromantic themes

[rugged eagle]

The ideas of warlocks are they're bargaining their own souls not the souls of others there's gotta be an agreement otherwise demon dudes would just steal everyones souls

[grave torrent]

I think I should be able to hide peoples souls after killing then that way the rat who’s sitting somewhere can’t help

[rugged eagle]

But you are correct necromantic themes do get pushed into the warlock class for some reason

[tulip hill]

Ever watch the Princess and the Frog?
Dr. Facilier was most definitely a warlock and he was in soul debt to his patron(s)
Collecting souls is a common warlock pastime

[rugged eagle]

Mans a witch doctor not warlock but at that point it's just semantics For a warlock they're going around collecting souls already owed to the patron which means those people had already made a deal with the patron and it's fair game

[tulip hill]

Now that I think about it, some warlocks straight up are pyramid schemes

[rugged eagle]

Pretty much lol

[tulip hill]

at the end of the day, a lot of patrons don't care who souls they get, as long as they get their souls

[rugged eagle]

They did say that a necromancer class was a possibility so I would like that class to get the soul theme instead of warlock as I see Ironmace implementing warlock as more of a spellblade class

There is no way they turn warlock into just another spellslinger would be very dissapointing

[quaint briar]

Isnt the idea of a necromancer that the things they raise have no soul.

[tulip hill]

I didn't know that :D I love necromancers

[grave torrent]

SPEED POTIONSSSSS

[rugged eagle]

There's alot of interpretations of necromancers but the underlying thing is mostly soul magic so they manipulate souls and give life to those without souls

[tulip hill]

would enjoy this, I agree

[rugged eagle]

Like the whole idea of bringing the dead back to life is bringing the soul back to the body functionally so it makes sense they have close ties to souls

[grave torrent]

can I get a LOD bone spear necro plz

[quaint briar]

I could see an artificer class using the souls. But then again artificer is kinda mary sue tier

[rugged eagle]

Naked rogue about to break the sound barrier with this

[grave torrent]

I think the skill tree will help other classes with movement it’s just gonna be rough for them early game. I hope that’s what they do but as of now wizard has the highest skill ceiling and rogue is the most fun due to how easy he is

[tulip hill]

I honestly want rogue to be more rat as apposed to an assassin
I would much rather them have more things like smoke bomb and pickpocket than things like rupture and poison weapon

[grave torrent]

Idk I feel like maybe they add bandit and make him into the “thief” I like assassin or vice verca they make an Assassin class and rogue becomes the thief

[rugged eagle]

Poison is fine imo it just shouldn't do magic damage

[minor sonnet]

Troll is gonna be pissed

[deep marsh]

Hey guys just read all the things, thanks for the replies! so how I was thinking it would work would be any the rarer the item, the harder to identify, aswell as maybe not having the weapon be permanently equipped to you when cursed, but stuck in your inventory until you can get rid of the curse, or extract. I also think you play with idea of having this be just for ai loot, giving more pvp incentive as all items from players will be identified. And definitely have all loot be identified upon extraction.

This definitely could be too much of a change, but I think a different mode somewhat like this would be really fun with the high risk, high reward mechanics

[tulip hill]

I mean, once they add the skill tree there were probably be room for both

[grave torrent]

Yeah but I agree. I think being able to branch out from just stealth and just assassin would be sick.

Or a mix a both but theyre not as strong

[atomic mountain]

I see where you’re going with this but I think having an item stuck in your inventory may reduce a little bit of player interaction. For instance; dropping it for a teammate to ID who has a higher identification speed. Perhaps a good middle ground for this would be that the item has some negative stats until it’s identified?

[restive sand]

Revert high roller lobbies to less black mobs, also change pacing for the circle closing. It moves like a turtle at first when there is little PVP then in high roller lobbies when you get into more teamfights in the final circles it moves way to fast. Most fights you win you don't have time to even loot before having to scramble for portals. Very unfun gameplay loop.

[grave torrent]

Do we play the same game? I feel like it’s too slow in HR and people are so passive but that’s just my opinion

[restive sand]

Different game for sure.

[grave torrent]

Lol yeah might just be my patience being shit

[tulip hill]

How would yall feel if HR lobbies had less blue portals and more red portals

[atomic mountain]

As far as I know the circle closing speed and match duration hasn’t changed (though I haven’t tested this). the white circle and how the zone interacts with its display on the mini map has changed though, So that might be why it feels different

[grave torrent]

I like this.

[restive sand]

Let me just clarify, black mobs everywhere slows down the high roller pacing even more to a circle that already moved to quickly towards the end. By the time its the 2nd to last or 3rd circle you have wiped 2-3 other teams that had to fight through these black skeletons. So theres even more people towards these end circles and you dont have time to loot these kills if the fight was remotely close b4 having to leave

[grave torrent]

I feel like the hell and nightmare mobs aren’t the problem. Every mob has a cheese and if u have a good weapon they die in 3-4 hits

[deep marsh]

@atomic mountain I see, I was playing solo the whole time so I definitely wasn't thinking about that loll! So maybe if this was something they were thinking about implementing, they would have to go with the stat lowering version that people were talking about, but as you were saying, the balancing may be an issue, so ig well just have to wait and see!

[restive sand]

I'm not worried about dying to mobs, its how long they take to kill slowing the high rollers down even more.

[grave torrent]

Read the last 3 words

[restive sand]

I mean i guess the pacing may feel fine to you, nothing worse in high roller being the team that kills 3-4 other teams and not getting any loot because the circle closes to fast and the pacing feels even more scuffed then it use to

[grave torrent]

What if they add like a 15 sec timer when ring fully closes? Gives u a bit more than just insta dying but not enough to where people won’t engage

[restive sand]

I'm also fine with them spawning a 3 portal out/down in the final circle middle when it closes like b1

[tulip hill]

I feel that comes down to a good team playing too passively
if you are able to kill 3-4 other teams in the chaos of the last couple rings you could have probably hunted them down earlier

[restive sand]

Nah not with current mobs, people play so much slower. Any1 who grinded both hr's only last 2 playtest i bet will say pacing feels worse then it use to. And it didnt use to feel good lol.

[deep marsh]

@restive sand I think that's the fun of it tbh, it's so exhilarating having to scramble after a fight to grab what you can and go! And most of the time, if you take your time, your dead, so it makes for a more, ig "realistic" experience, like if you were down there with all those monsters you definitely wouldn't have time to grab every little piece of gold, so I think the game does a good job of not just being a loot simulator, and it keeps you on your toes!

[tulip hill]

I'm not sure realistic is the correct word to use there

[restive sand]

I agree to an extent but it happens way to frequently. You can make it a lil slower towards the end or give the "winning" team a solid way out with 3 portals spawning in the middle

[grave torrent]

People play too passive due to gear fear. They worry too much on staying alive rather than getting more loot. It’s optional to pvp but it’s just not fun(too me) to only kill mobs and open chest and escape

[deep marsh]

Yeah was trying to think of a better one but I'm a little fried after 4/20 lmao

[trim maple]

I had an idea for some new unique items that could fill up the Pendant slot: Hero Charms. Basically, you would have a different pendant with an aspect of each class, such as:

Fighter Charm - Allows you to equip any item much like the Weapon Mastery perk

Barbarian Charm - Grants a damage boost and a short regen upon getting a headshot kill on an enemy with any two-handed melee weapon

Ranger Charm - Gives a damage boost that scales based on how far away the enemy is

Wizard Charm - Fires a Magic Missile projectile from the crosshair upon attacking. Also grants a large Will bonus

Rogue Charm - Grants invisibility on crouch. Is cancelled by movement and attacking like the normal invisibility.

Cleric Charm - Boosts the effectiveness of healing items. No percentages cuz this could be insanely op.

Bard Charm - You and all nearby friendly players gain a bonus to attributes that cycles periodically

Probably dumb but I think its cool 😎

[grave torrent]

I want something that helps with attack speed

[tulip hill]

interesting concept but I don't think most of these specific effects would work well for balance

[trim maple]

I feel like Bard Charm would

[deep marsh]

Tbh I didn't get any high roller matches in so this definitely could be true, but I am not the one to speak on it lmaoo

[mortal dirge]

what if they add a market so that you can keep selling your items while you are in game, you can search what you want for too instead of class specific trades hubs the prices might also get lower instead of people selling for everything for more than 100 the prices might get lower, it would also be easier than waiting for the right trade to come up and you can buy things easier by searching for what u want

[tulip hill]

so like a Runescape market?

[trim maple]

honestly i tried to make them in line with some of the other uniques

[mortal dirge]

yeah

[grave torrent]

Attribute don’t really contribute to attack speed tho

[trim maple]

agility

[tulip hill]

Agility increases attack speed

[grave torrent]

Damn I was lied to then.

[deep marsh]

I'm just imagining sticking your boots in a magic bag then 100 gold comes out loll, but I feel that would ruin the whole point of extracting if you could just instantly trade an item you find in game

[trim maple]

its why agility build is so good on barb

[grave torrent]

This new discord update is horrible on the phone

[tulip hill]

while there are some effects that specifically increase attack speed, it is partially determined by a stat call "Action Speed" which dictates the animation of using items which includes the attack animation

and agility increases your action speed

[lucid root]

Everyone in ruins is just standing around in the middle trading

[hearty badge]

🤢🤮

[regal lotus]

god this Ceeps guy is annoying

[tulip hill]

Do you ever actually give feedback or do you just send reaction emoji

[trim maple]

who?

[hearty badge]

The only feedback worth writing about is towards the people who actually know the feel and nuance with the game design ideals of D&D. Everything else seems like an attempt to inject another game's core mechanics into D&D, which is a total turn off.

[trim maple]

oh because you know so much about the thought put into dnd's development?

[tulip hill]

Okay, so you're just being rude on purpose, understood

[trim maple]

i just think it'd be cool to have unique pendants shrug

[hearty badge]

Considering I have blown more than 200 hours into D&D already, I'd say I have a pretty good feel of what would compel myself to spend $60 (and possibly more) on this unique product.

[trim maple]

what

that is insanely sad if you're genuinely considering the value these items would have in rmt

[hearty badge]

Yikes

[tulip hill]

no no no, they think their opinion is more valuable because they have already spent so much time and are willing to buy the game when it comes out

[trim maple]

i mean i feel like i probably have half those hours but i still know their opinion means nothing

just kinda fried from 4/20 still shrug

[latent tundra]

What do you guys think of adding crafting materials to the game? I was thinking like an exalted orb from poe where you can add a stat to an existing item

[rugged eagle]

This is coming from the guy who didn't like the idea of object identification which the devs have already said they want to add? What do you know of the devs intentions with the game

[trim maple]

honestly i wish they'd make meds and arrows craftable along with alot of the other consumables, i wanna be a potion seller that sells only the strongest potions of blue and green rarity on the market

[latent tundra]

It could work as a higher up currency rather than candy

[tulip hill]

could work
I kinda like finding random loot though, if we could just reroll items we don't like using objects that take up very little space it kinda detracts from keeping good gear in your stash

[atomic mountain]

Agility and also Action speed

[trim maple]

i feel like the higher rarity potions/bandages need a more consistent way to obtain tho. just finding them randomly doesnt seem like a very good way to do it

[rugged eagle]

I don't think they've planned on adding craftables but it could be a kinda cool system I think the crafting stations should be inside the maps themselves so there's risk to crafting and not just a blatant benefit to gathering the stuff

[latent tundra]

Ya im against things that reroll in the current game but rather really rare currency that can add a stat to an already good piece of gear

[rugged eagle]

I don't like the idea of gear systems existing outside of the maps because that detaches them from the risk/reward cycle of the game

[latent tundra]

Obviously with a cap at the same mods as uniques so you can’t infinitely add stats to items

[tulip hill]

oh fair point
maybe POE style items like the ones that increase rarity would be useful, but I still stand by my opinion that rerolls aren't a good idea

[trim maple]

Honestly I feel like being able to pay a gold fee to reroll items isn't a bad idea, it would put otherwise useless weapons back into circulation and it still wouldn't really change gear progression as long as it's priced accordingly

[hearty badge]

Yes, stuff like this is questionable and makes me wonder if the devs do understand what they're doing here. Playtest 5 imo is indicative of many questionable aspects moving forward, which prevents me from wanting to spend my valuable time and money. I'll say it again - Dark & Darker's biggest and most beautiful aspect is it's simplicity at surface level that allows you to get back into the dungeons as fast as possible, win or lose. At the same time, build complexity, design, and resourcefulness is a driving factor for working towards the end game. Tedium is bad, all around.

[latent tundra]

A divine would be sick too, reroll values on gear. Could make certain items insane that only roll 1 damage opposed to 3

[atomic mountain]

Sometimes an idea is inspired by other games, but that doesn’t mean they are bad by default. Reacting with emojis is immature and discourages the sharing of ideas more than countering with a sentence or two on how the idea may be problematic or would only conditionally work. It takes more effort to be kind and thorough in a response, but it’s the only way to respond that is worthwhile. Unless ofc you’re poking fun at an obvious troll.

[tulip hill]

I would much prefer if they increased the sell price of gear so players could get some gold for their less than ideal gear and use that money to buy something better off the trade market

[trim maple]

If it were made to be priced according to the rarity of the item it would probably not be a case of rerolling items taking up space but rather choosing between spending gold on a guaranteed decent weapon or a chance at a better one

[atomic mountain]

I’d like to see something like that further down the line. A variation on gem slotting could be cool.

[granite plinth]

I would love to see Wizard gain access to Short Sword along with a new primary slot one-handed casting weapon.

[trim maple]

Honestly yeah, it should scale according to rarity as well so shit rolls can be discarded for actual profit instead of being endlessly shouted into the trading halls

[tulip hill]

exactly

[atomic mountain]

Crafting them and/or combining lower rarity ones would be sick.

[rugged eagle]

True i like the simplicity but i trust the devs to deliver on new content as they have so far

[latent tundra]

Im more for adding rarer crafting items than common ones to avoid bloat. The exalt and divine would have to be rare and maybe limited to high-roller/inferno

[trim maple]

like ~30g for a green, ~80g for a blue, ~200g for purples, ~600g for golds is what i'd say off the top of my head

[rugged eagle]

I dont think any of them are crazy enough to push features that would ruin the charm of the game

[tulip hill]

I'm not sure about the exact numbers. probably like half of what you buy them for from the NPCs

[latent tundra]

I wouldn’t want orbs of alteration to just reroll same rarity gear

[atomic mountain]

I’d agree that PT5 was the worst (as far as stability and mistakes being made) but I like that they’re willing to experiment. This is when you’d want to see wild changes in design, so they can figure out what they’d like to see as devs and what the community prefers so they can take that feedback and improve to find a compromise that adds to the enjoyment value the players get on full release.

[trim maple]

Definitely less than the npc vendor price yea

Honestly tho I also wouldn't mind some sort of trade-up system or something that let you upgrade the rarity of an item through some process

[tulip hill]

oh yeah, that would be an option instead of adding an upgrade item you could have a trade up system

[trim maple]

I feel like there should also be quests to get some of the unique items 🙂

[tulip hill]

woof, that one would have to be very carful about

[latent tundra]

Vendor 3 of same rarity weapons and get a higher up tier weapon with random stats, would help with stash bloat and raise the value of items with bad rolls

[atomic mountain]

They did though. Ruin (Forest) was an entirely new feel and was a non-optional matchmaking choice that most didn’t enjoy as much as Castle. Good thing they made it optional

[gaunt cargo]

Are we ignoring the existing gear crafting system?
I wouldn't mind if they let you salvage items for the various cobalt or ruby components.

[latent tundra]

The existing crafting is dogshit unless you want a high pdr chest

[trim maple]

Would be fun though if there were some super long questline to unlock Fulgor for instance that replaced it showing up randomly in the dungeon

[winter bronze]

i hope there is a more advanced crafting system in the future where you can just fill your inventory with various trash armour just for the resources

[trim maple]

Some of them have really cool effects that the majority of people just miss out on

[tulip hill]

actually, a long quest line as a replacement to finding it randomly wouldn't be a horrible idea
would make it actually feel unique rather than just another rarity of item

[trim maple]

Something that could take an experienced player a couple weeks at the least

[latent tundra]

Its better to add crafting systems that are easy to understand for noobs, that effect gamewide systems. Like who was crafting leather shit with ore? It was a waste of time

[gaunt cargo]

Idk if they made any adjustments this PT. Previous PT I mined enough for 3 cobalt sets and 1 ruby set. Only 2 pieces were worth using.

Salvaging would make this less painful and also add a nice price floor for trash items of various rarities.

[placid zinc]

Nerf Falchions or bring the other 1handers up in power.

[tulip hill]

I think the length of the quest would have to depend heavily on how much time are between wipes

[rugged eagle]

I personally really enjoyed the new map but it was a really bad idea to introduce that with double jump

[trim maple]

Yeah, definitely. I'd imagine they'd do monthly or seasonal wipes but ultimately it'll be up to them

[latent tundra]

The only piece worth crafting is armor chest cuz of the high base armor value since you get random stats and they have the most variance

[atomic mountain]

I would have rather seen a more spaced out and less mob dense Level 1 that didn’t provide as much loot value or PvP action as Castle, but provided a more new player friendly option for people to learn in a lower pressure environment.
A higher stakes HR alternative with good loot, lots of mobs and PvP minus the HR buy-in would have been a great addition later on, imo.

[hearty badge]

While I do understand the sentiments around how people perceive it as negative, the die hard community should be veering people away from ideals that make it either too complex, too tedious, or just plain unrealistic from what D&D should remain at it's core. Some of these ideas here aren't necessarily bad, but they clearly need way more thought put into it.

I'll make it fair though by spitballing a thought I had about a certain Bard passive (given that I clocked in almost 50 hours worth before being bored of it), and you guys can shit on me if it sounds dumb.

Bard has an extremely niche passive that gives him bonus armor rating for playing or channeling a song. This is extremely pointless since the class is not tanky to begin with, nor would you ever want to channel in the midst of your opponent being in hit range. In my personal opinion, the talent should have read more like "Bard receives an armor bonus, and a slight move speed bonus while playing and channeling a tune." Mobility is an extremely important aspect of any class, and perhaps allowing Bard to reposition slightly better in the midst of intense combat while playing music, would be a bigger help than receiving just flat armor.

[placid zinc]

Remove trade from the game and juice up the merchant / quest / crafting system.

[tulip hill]

true, I loved the new map but felt that rogues being able to ignore going through doors was a bit of a problem

[atomic mountain]

Yeah, it was a solo Rogue’s playground for sure. Which is fine, I’m sure it was fun as hell for them, but perhaps would have been better to bring out later in time after they had more time to consider the balance more.

[rugged eagle]

I dont think the current implementation of forest was gonna be how it would end up it will most likely be as you describe during early access

[tulip hill]

I vaguely remember the devs wanting you to be able to actually walk to dungeons being a thing

[rugged eagle]

They just wanted testing data so balance was definitely not their priority

[unborn pond]

is this game ever going to get a mantle/climb system?

[rugged eagle]

We will find out more from the post playtest interviews i hope!

[tulip hill]

probably not, no
like 99.9% chance no

[unborn pond]

ok what is that based on

[mental pendant]

It's not cod bruh 💀

[placid zinc]

Suggestion: Add a perk for bards that allows songs to be sung without an instrument at a reduced effectiveness. Skalds bebe.

[hearty badge]

Interesting thought, although it might be difficult to implement and balance. It's hard to think exactly how this all works, given how broken playing the music works to begin with.

[placid zinc]

The powerful songs could still require an instrument.

[tame pewter]

bard song that opens doors near you?

[placid zinc]

Like the AoE charm and invuln song require instruments but the songs that don't play the melody after hitting the notes wouldn't if used the perk

[atomic mountain]

I’m not adverse to shidding on flat out horrible ideas, and I do think gatekeeping certain things is an important responsibility of an established community. I just tend to keep it lighthearted at first, until they poison the well then I’m going to emoji them as well lmao.

Your bard suggestion is reasonable. Move speed would help a solo whereas the armor bonus seems to be more of a group support back-liner protection perk that allows them to play music without worrying as much about taking a hit or two before adjusting.

[crisp valve]

just make the aoe for the bard spells bigger/smaller depending on the instrument. offhand horn to use with a rapier or two hand lute for large aoe

[placid zinc]

Ya. Lean into instruments amplifying the songs while if your just singing them they are less effective

[atomic mountain]

I think Ruin will stay Ruin. It will likely be an HR type alternative, but I’d like to see a different non-optional Level 1 to compliment Castle.

[hearty badge]

Also I'm going to admit fully that most of what I think about is based around playing solo, which is the strongest appealing aspect for a lot of gamers. The castle is fine and what not, but I'm not going to pretend I understand the complexity of designing and balancing for a team composition. I spam and play solo, and that's what I know the best based on how it feels and plays for each class.

[placid zinc]

I'd be interested to see the community split of solo versus group players. I think the groups have the solos beat in representation.

[crisp valve]

the game is intended to be a group game, its dnd inspired. solo play is something they experimented with in goblin caves but i think they said the core game is going to be 3 player

[tulip hill]

long story short, a mantle system doesn't fit within the style of the game as DaD is heavily inspired by older generation games
mantling is a system that grants games a faux fluidity in their movement, something that would taint the conceptual design of Dark and Darker, the fact we even have double jump is a little surprising but not as far removed as a mantle system

[atomic mountain]

I’m sure later on they’ll find a decent balance for each class’s viability and the feel solo and in teams. Being able to enjoy any class a player chooses and either play solo/team is probably a huge priority for them on full release. Fun>Everything based on what they’ve said and done so far.

[lucid root]

Wizard hitting a bard allies lute with zap turns it into an electric lute for big time jamz

[placid zinc]

Ya the only solo concept that will last is solo ratting. Solo combat should never be relevant for balance

[lusty pasture]

We need a gold sink so players with a lot of gold dont have as much - maybe repair items off players they kill and loot?

[placid zinc]

Duo is probably my preferred style if they ever release it. But game should be balanced around trios.

They plan to add durability to items.

[hearty badge]

Healing is a big issue in my opinion in the solo caves, which is why Cleric and Fighter are the biggest offenders. The game is still a numbers game, and those classes almost have no drawback for basically having a 2nd life. It will be difficult to balance that, which seems like a real problem. Also, if a game is forcing you to play with people to experience the "fun," that's a huge turn off in my opinion.

[crisp valve]

gold really doesnt buy you much besides mid healing and basic white armor. its the trading that gold gets strong and its already capped at the small trade window inventory. they just need to make trades expensive so its harder to get mid gear unless you loot it and big trades for great gear

[placid zinc]

I think trading is bad for the game. Wish they scrapped it all together and beefed up merchant / crafting mechanics to allow more deterministic outcomes.

[forest moat]

nah trading makes taking the risk of looting other players gear (even if u cant use it) actually worth something. IMO its a good addition

[placid zinc]

In a good crafting system you could deconstruct the epics or other gear you looted

[tulip hill]

I'm not sure this game needs big gold sinks
gold takes up space in your stash and you only have so much space, there is a cap of how much money you can realistically have

[crisp valve]

yeah trading is huge, i just wish it was like a 100g tax on trades so you cant just pickup a budget gear set with a hand crossbow every run for 100g

[hearty badge]

Some aspects of the trading is fun, other aspects are not. When you spend a load of time trying to purchase BiS off players, just to get cheesed with that build, it can lead to a feeling of wasted time, which is bad.

[placid zinc]

If you could remove 1 modifier from an item by deconstructing it then adding that modifier to a similar tiered item with crafting mats ... Much better... I am a SSF gamer though and view trade as always leading to RMT and wasted time not playing the game.

[forest moat]

IMO i like having to barter for gear and have it take a while... idk it just makes the game more fun to me, but i can see why its annoying for some

[hollow flicker]

It would be fine if you had the stash to buy sell and trade stuff in bulk

[hearty badge]

My only gripe is just the insane competitive nature for buying BiS gear to make a specific build, only to as I said, get cheesed way to quickly or worse (dying to a hacker or exploiter). During PT4, it felt like people were borderline botting the marketplace.

[forest moat]

yuh i understand, for me at least, after i die and i need gear, just cooling off with some bidding still has me engaged with the game, but there's no fear factor involved.

[placid zinc]

No trade means less hackers and cheaters that are doing it for RMT.

[crisp valve]

no trade means you and your group pull bis wizard gear but no one wants to play wiz so it just gets sold for 50g to a merchant. trade is important to any escape game especially since the game is supposed to be fun and theres supposed to be op gear

[hearty badge]

I think a big issues is that % value items are inherently weaker in value than all flat attributed stats. I don't know what the solution is, but I do see the problem.

[lusty pasture]

How do you all feel about this? - a system with no trade and items were bound but you could salvage for the specs, then have to take those items in-game and craft in-game. So you have a chance to make what you want BUT there is a chance you will get killed getting to the crafting station?

[placid zinc]

In theory you could do it via 3rd party website but then have to group together and join a game with no guarantee you get the item.

Obviously if you remove trade you need to juice up the merchant and questing and crafting to make up for the items.

[trim maple]

the solution is simple, boost the percentage scaling of the attributes

[gleaming marsh]

We need our playable skeletons back. There were no options for them anymore, and that's a shame.

I want to be pickpocketed by a level fifty rogue skeleton again.

[trim maple]

so they arent like 0.1% boosts that give nothing

[forest moat]

yeah, there's a lot of gear which is basically useless becuase of its stats. I feel like more average stats on weapons (like no 0.2% movespeed increase on a dagger instead of strength)

[hearty badge]

This can get out of hand very fast, we'll have to see where the middle ground and meta stands.

[placid zinc]

Having the crafting bench be inside the game that puts you at risk would be great

[forest moat]

Eh, leave the gearset creation to outside the game, I want to just focus on fighting and looting in game.

[lusty pasture]

Thank you

[hearty badge]

This was already recommend in the suggestions channel, and it bombed completely 👎

[crisp valve]

i think people underestimate how much diminishing returns there are on skills, having high base stats + flat % added can get you close to double damage or 100% dr. the two work in conjunction to make insanity. if flat % were rasied then everyone would run +5% dr and end up with 70dr

[trim maple]

honestly i feel like it'd be different for every weapon. realistically they cant make the stats completely random because there's always the chance for them to get out of hand, so i feel like what they should do instead is have a list of different attribute buffs each item can have that it rolls for every item drop

[placid zinc]

Eventually you won't need loot. The meta can shift towards securing the crafting station to make items and get out. Sounds fun to me.

[trail forge]

The game's skill bloat in general is a headache for the devs to balance and renders way too much gear generally useless. If they insist on keeping the current system then they should give us a crafting system similar to vermintide where we can deconstruct items for crafting mats to upgrade other pieces, build new ones from scratch, or reroll stats and it should be done in the merchant window.

The current trade post is too much a feckless time sink to compensate for the amount of useless gear generated.

[forest moat]

But you got to think about all the people who won't get to that stage. Not just the super rich people who will

[hearty badge]

I think the crafting bench in the map idea is just going to lead to literal griefing, camping, and gatekeeping. Hard pass.

[placid zinc]

The casuals would be able to loot more if the rich don't need to loot but focus more on the crafting and objectives within the game.

[lusty pasture]

I agree there needs to be some kind of deconstruct and craft mechanic - BUT if they made it that simple then it would render 90% of the items useless AND everyone would be running the same exact build.

Broadly speaking - there needs to be a way that either the rich have a harder time getting gear or the poor have an easier time getting gear. I never had a problem getting gear. It just seemed like a chore to try and be the first to trade to get that +3 all att item.

[trail forge]

Everyone would be running competitive gear. Gear scales way too aggressively in this game to try and create artifical item level/correct stat allocation divides

[hearty badge]

I think the crafting stuff is unnecessary, and cobalt and ruby ore collecting should be better defined by the risks and rewards. As I said before, mining matches the themes of the dungeons, and forces interactions in unique rooms while also scratching the crafting itch people desire.

[regal lotus]

I vote better trading/auction system first.

Then think about crafting gear, because as noted it will cause a gear creep

[lusty pasture]

But thats where its at right now. Everyone is looking for BiS and refuse to buy anything else. There isnt enough of it. I guess you could increase drop rate but that doesnt seem creative to me.

[crisp valve]

i think crafting is cringe, bis being rng is good enough for me. if you need +3 attribute weapons to be competitive then im sorry but you suck. you dont /need/ bis to kill bosses and stuff

[regal lotus]

Not really true. Plenty of ppl buying mid/low tier gear

[hearty badge]

👍

[regal lotus]

If you make a more powerful crafting system you wind up forcing players to engage w it and many probablly dont care to

[trail forge]

I think you might be misunderstanding me. Useless gear would still drop at the same level, just after a certain point of deconstructing them instead of vendoring it for like 8 gold you could just start burning mats to either reroll stats on a piece of useless gear or build your own gear from white and level it up by spending those maps.

[lusty pasture]

I think were on the same page haha - an alternative to just buying BiS. I have my preferences on what I buy but I will run whatever if its a good price.

[hearty badge]

Rerolling stats is like farthest stretch that I'm willing to go, with pure skepticism. Speculative on how broken or tedious it could get.

[lusty pasture]

Also people - google the Pareto distribution.

[proper hornet]

As a sugestion.. Please stop buffing the Rougue. you keep putting buffs, skills and perks on a class that its already to much buffed.
You debuff the wizard.
And you make a quiver for the archer to carry arrows as it takes a lot of inventory space.

[trail forge]

Ok word.

The other option to dealing with useless gear, which I'm surprised they haven't really taken a crack at yet, is to just dial back gear scaling in general. It's why wizard starting Stats have been absolutely dragged the last 2 play tests: in doesn't seem like they have a good handle on gear coefficients so they are forced to just nerd starting stats.

[hearty badge]

Rogue needed buffs, just not too the extent they got this time around. 👍

[trail forge]

If they community was honest with itself it would say rogue has been fine since play test 3, the devs just keep lowering the skill and gear floor.

[regal lotus]

You are missing the point. Its not about creeping everyone's access to gear equally. Its having to spend time engaging w a crafting / reroll system that is not actually fun, just tedious.

[proper hornet]

I don t think they do mate.. I as a fighter, full gear hit the naked rogue 3 times. and he lost only a quarter of HP.....

[crisp valve]

the other classes should be as fun as rouge, make them squishier so a cleric can just smite them or they have to really dodge and out range to kill, make hemorage and the anti - armor not apply on ranged attacks

[trail forge]

Yo you just summed up thoughts on the trade post perfectly lol

How you living, boo?

[hearty badge]

You probably got very unlucky or did not hit the good hitboxes or w/e. Sounds very unlikely

[regal lotus]

Agreed , make a better trading system like auction house type thing

[trail forge]

💯

[granite plinth]

For sure, I never tried the trading system because it seemed so time consuming and I just wanted to play.

[lusty pasture]

I'm not saying equality of outcome - I am not a proponent of that irl either hahaha. But equality of opportunity would be nice. Technically it exists now. But I think there should be alternatives to just buying BiS is all I'm saying. I hate crafting. Never been a crafter. But I think there is a way it could be done creatively and would be good content for the game. That's why I suggested it be samething in match. Risk/reward,

[trim maple]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_IIORCnBxI

Current trading system is there not for ease of use but to promote community interaction

[lusty pasture]

Also - the perk tree when you click class should be interesting and open up a lot of options for players to play different builds. That is if its like most other rpgs.

[hearty badge]

Which is good in a way, no?

[regal lotus]

Eh you can have community interaction without frustrating systems

[trim maple]

Yea, it's the entire point

[trail forge]

This is probably the flimsiest defense in keeping it as is: there is absolutely no meaningful social interaction that happens in trade chat spam and the 30 seconds it takes to complete a trade.

[regal lotus]

Im not worried about it, they make it better every playtest.

I just dont want to RNG reroll my gear and sit around playing RNG reroll simulator

[lusty pasture]

Yes that would suck. There has to be a way. I'm thinking ingame content.

[regal lotus]

I dont want to spend my in game time trying to upgrade my gear either

[hearty badge]

Noted, however perhaps the idea is more for allowing players to have a sense in identity in being a trader, if that's their thing.

[trail forge]

If they did it like vermintide it would be very quick to move back into the game play loop. We're talking orders of magnitude faster than the trade house

[trim maple]

When you're spamming low value green items for 50g that no one wants anyways, yes this is true. But for high value items there's alot to think about when it comes to pricing, and there's even people who can game the system to make money without even going in the dungeon in the first place. It's an entirely different game to dungeon diving that's meant to have a similar timesink for better rewards

[regal lotus]

I played vermintide and dont reallyy recall the system in question

Something about rerolling gear w RNG and some mats tho right? Not my cup of tea

[hearty badge]

Agreed. I've had to negotiate and reason with people the values of certain items. It can, and does happen, and it rewards those who want trading to be their identity. Not advocating for RMT though at all.

[trail forge]

@trim maple You can still play the game as a trader with an auction house. You're still playing the market, your name is still on the listing - you could easily have a DM or note system to haggle for pricies on more rare and expensive gear that will take longer to move. The difference is removing the time sink for gearing up for the more mundane and daily play sessions.

@regal lotus in vermintide 2 you basically gets powders and materials the same grade as the item you deconstruct. Powders are used to either reroll stats or upgrade rarity, materials are used with a blue prints to build different items. It's all instant.

So say, as a rogue, after dumpstering a bunch of caster stated barbarian gear that will never sell on the trade post, you now can use the mats to build a one handed cross bow and you can use the powders to upgrade its rarity/reroll stats depending on the quality of what you've been deconstructing.

[lucid root]

Can we get at least 90 fov plox

[trim maple]

The difference is removing the time sink for gearing up for the more mundane and daily play sessions.
That is... literally the entire point. It's meant to take a bit of patience. You cant get stacked with god roll purples right away.

[charred summit]

dumb question but i keep seeing people say BiS, i know it refers to items but i dont know exactly

[trail forge]

I'm talking about just grabbing a green or blue set and playing the game instead burning half my play time for the night if I've got work or recreational grass touching to attend to. There's no reason for a time sink to exist for that level of gearing

[trim maple]

So your options are either play the game and just roll with what the merchants have and what you can find randomly, or spend some time in the market to get some better gear

[granite plinth]

Pretty sure it means Best in Slot.

[trail forge]

Best in Slot: gear whose stats are optimized for what you're playing and how you're playing it

[hearty badge]

👍

[charred summit]

ty

[trim maple]

You can totally survive with just a green weapon and some heals, you don't need a whole set if you don't have the time to get it

[hearty badge]

Some green items are literally god tier and affordable by comparison to higher quality items

[trail forge]

Lol that sentence in and of itself handwaves the issue of how much useless gear is generated: there's nothing to say I'll have anything I actually need when it's go time.

[trim maple]

Even then, you usually find enough decent gear just opening chests to kit you out enough to run even high roller runs if you can prevent skill issues

[trail forge]

Trade post is a dumb time sink that exists because of nostalgia goggles for dial up era mmos. It's an archaic system that even grindy games recognized needed to away

I'm here to fight in dungeons not ego stroke strangers in chat spam

[trim maple]

You could just buy the first things you see and roll with those lol

[trail forge]

Lmao that solution is about as eloquent as the system itself, which isn't very

[trim maple]

It's not supposed to be, it's literally intended to be a bit scuffed at the edges because it's not meant to be the main way you get your gear

[trail forge]

Basically you have two arguments:

"I like trade because it's my social identity"

And

"This stage of the game is a wild departure from the actual game play loop that takes way too long for how important gear is in any semblance of competitive play"

[hearty badge]

How do people feel about insurance systems? Is it plausible in a game like D&D (does it fit), and is there a way to make it more interesting or balanced?

[dense sand]

Booo insurance booo

[trail forge]

Gear is already a reverse handicap: the better you are the more likely you are to not need it against someone who isn't good enough to get it as easily as you.

An insurance mechanic seems counter intituitve

[hearty badge]

Interesting, noted 📝

[trim maple]

nah its just kind of weird how so many people complain about a system that has already been explained to them and wont be changed by the devs past qol changes lol

[trail forge]

Making it an auction house where you can play the actual game while people can see and purchase your item is unironically a qol change

[trim maple]

wanna know how you can play the actual game while people can see and purchase your item? hire a friend to sell it for you. if you don't have the patience you can just pay someone else a cut of the profit to have the patience for you

[trail forge]

Idk about you but I typically play with my friends. Why are we inventing obtuse solutions to a problem that doesn't even need to exist lol

[hearty badge]

Idk if that's a realistic approach tbqh

[trim maple]

i feel like for more expensive items it would be

[rose trellis]

It is not at all, not even remotely

[lucid root]

Barebones mode next playtest, only go in with starter kits, loot is increased, thoughts?

[hearty badge]

If it were, I'd be prepping myself to be a professional MM where I receive 20% or more on any given item I'm required to barter lol

[rose trellis]

It's a game homie not a job no one wants to pay their friend to trade for em lol

[trail forge]

This man gets it.

[trim maple]

bro paying virtual currency for someone to sell your virtual item on a virtual marketboard sounds tight af tho

[rose trellis]

Not it doesn't lmao not unless you are on a huge mmo or doing some rp shit as a shopkeeper, in a game like this it sounds like the dumbest solution to a simple problem

[trim maple]

it sounds like a skill solution to a patience issue

and like is this not a huge mmo

[rose trellis]

Lmao paying your friends is not a skill solution it's just extra steps to sell stuff that sounds annoying, and a simple solution would be just be able to post stuff you wanna sell and it stays up till it sells or you take it down like tarkov

[lucid root]

[trim maple]

yea but then there's literally no community interaction aside from buying and selling and that's not what the devs want. you can't barter in an auctionhouse

[weak vine]

I think the current way the market works is awesome a lot more fun then a store like tarkov, even tho it would be easier I think this way is way more fun even tho it’s time consuming

[rose trellis]

Also no this is not an mmo lmao, and yeah I don't have an issue with the current market but your solution for people who do is not a real one

[hearty badge]

If there were an auction house, marketing fees should apply there, and not to the current bartering system. I think we could agree on that. Your time spent personally should not be taxed.

[weak vine]

Marking fees is the lamest thing in the world, it ruined tarkov market there should just be the 15 gold fee

[rose trellis]

Tarkov ruined tarkov by locking everything out of the flee lmao

[weak vine]

They should just leave the trading system as it is, it’s fun

[trim maple]

i think the big misconception alot of people make about the trading hall system is that you're supposed to get your items instantly and like that's literally not the point. having a chance to open a window of dialog with the person selling the item gives you a chance to buy it for your own price, or even trade items for what you need. an auctionhouse would ruin that and suck the soul out of buying things, you just wouldn't be able to barter anymore

[weak vine]

Tarkov sucks so bad now they should just keep the trading how it is

[trim maple]

like
i can sell purple items for ~200-600g depending on the rolls. but sometimes i go lower because people offered me a deal i was willing to accept and that level of interaction is lost with market postings like you suggest

[hearty badge]

After seeing that video about the hacking situation for Tarkov, yikes 👀

[weak vine]

Tarkov is such a dead game it is so sad it used to be so great

[tulip hill]

I just love the chaos of it all
makes me feel like I'm in an actual market with everyone yelling out their adverts

[trail forge]

I am a little concerned for anyone who thinks the trade system resembles social interaction

[tulip hill]

I don't think you fully understand what is and isn't a social interaction

[trail forge]

Oh sorry, let me make this specific enough to withstand semantics:

"I am a little concerned for anyone who thinks the trade system resembles meaningful social interaction."

[trim maple]

i literally just explained it to you, i don't see how i could make it much clearer than that

[tulip hill]

I'm not sure what you are arguing then, I don't think anyone said it was a meaningful social interaction

[summer storm]

Just chiming in with my own thoughts, I think having a potential hub area to load into to chat and recruit as if you actually went into a tavern to recruit for your party would be a funny addition. Also a good way to flex off gear / etc.

[tulip hill]

I think the devs said they were considering that

[hearty badge]

👍 It would allow players to view and spectate builds too, which could help newer players get a better sense or feel of what they should be looking for.

[trail forge]

I already listed all the ways you can skirt the existence of an already shallow series of exchanges to retain whatever level of name recognition you think you obtained from the current one.

@tulip hill the excuse for the current trade system that's already been improved upon for decades is that it's a "social interaction" which it simply is not.

[trim maple]

I mean again you can barter for lower prices in the current system, in an auctionhouse you cannot. The act of bartering is the social interaction, since it needs to be spelled out.

[trail forge]

Yes you can, you simply add a DM or mail system. If the item is actually of any consequence to haggle for then it will be on the market long enough for a conversation. At this point you're just trying to force people play an entirely separate game from "dungeon crawler" for some need to more easily roleplay a price gouger.

If you can't make meaningful pricing impact with a mail system or just good old fashioned buying low, selling high, you really don't deserve to derive a profit at the expensive of literally everyone else's time

[hearty badge]

I'm not going to say an AH system is potentially a bad idea. It makes partial sense given that time is valuable and not everyone has that time to be bartering constantly. Additionally, I spelled out a huge negative regarding how much time you can waste on making a build, to only lose it in less than 5 minutes.

[trim maple]

At this point you're just trying to force people play an entirely separate game from "dungeon crawler" for some need to more easily roleplay a price gouger.
Huh, almost like that's the point or something

[summer storm]

Agreed, something similar to A4 loading area, give some training dummies to test damage of your build and all that, it would mean people experiment with builds without worrying about risking losing stuff.

Hell, a year or so down the line we could even be looking at a generic dice game or card game for people to jump in and play to pass the time in this social hub area. I think the more heavily they lean into immersion and light-RP systems create more unique experiences for players that retain attention for longer.

I could never fully recall a generic fight with a Barbarian in goblin caves. But I will always remember the time a Bard ran around asking for assistance because he got blackout drunk and found himself in the Goblin caves. I killed for that naked lute player, I murdered for him. But by God's Will as a valiant Knight, I got that man out of there.

[trail forge]

It's definitely the end result of a pointlessly convoluted system lol

Anyway I gotta go: current trade system is objectively bad stay safe everyone!

[tulip hill]

by the sounds of it you want a system not too far from the current state of trading in games like Team Fortress 2 which I find to be too sterile at this point
if they added something like an AH there would need to be a much higher tax for using it

[lucid root]

Barebones mode next playtest, only go in with starter kits, loot is increased

I think it would bring a lot of progression issues to the forefront that trading kind of bandaids though
That would have to be ironed out, some classes are going to get upgrades much more frequently
Give skele mages like a guaranteed wizard slot weapon drop

reposted from wizzy chat

[trim maple]

loot should be decreased, wtf

[tulip hill]

I'm not sure I understand

[summer storm]

Give skele mages like a guaranteed wizard slot weapon drop

reposted from wizzy chat

No bias I see.

[lucid root]

you can't bring anything in with you except the starter load out, no escape portals only down portals, hence the increased loot

[trim maple]

eh

[hearty badge]

idk about that one chief

[atomic mountain]

Yeah for sure. Even the Ranger has a self heal so they’re also strong in the Caves. I’d personally like to see some sort of hp regen on the Wizard, Rogue, and even the Barb so no gear characters can enjoy solo. As long as it’s not something that can be leveraged to make them OP in combat I don’t see why not. (Rest hp regen could apply to the Wizard meditate and Barbs could heal a small amount off mob kills for example)

[rose trellis]

I don't think a guaranteed wizard drop but a higher chance makes sense

[lucid root]

buncha trade enthusiasts ovah here

[trim maple]

hell ye

[hearty badge]

👍 At least Ranger was nerfed into the ground this time around and were still good. Range will more than likely always be a strong contender in the meta.

[tulip hill]

well if this is the start of the wipe then everyone would already be going in with nothing and if you are suggesting that everyone always goes in with nothing then what is the point of getting loot if you can't bring it

[lucid root]

so you can beat the boss at the end, and get mad killz

[summer storm]

How about Wizards just stop getting hit.
Why does Barb need HP regen lmfao.

Half the takes in here are literally "x should be buffed because I play x."

[tulip hill]

so like, you want the game to be a rogue like where you keep nothing?

[trim maple]

Range just counters everything in this game, it's hard to make him balanced.

[lucid root]

just a separate mode yeah

[rose trellis]

I'm sorry borg but that is a terrible idea and is just a rogue like that doesn't fit what they are doing at all

[atomic mountain]

Read the message I responded to if you want the context “lmfao”. Everyone has limited regen by resting now so 🤷‍♂️. Just spitballing with a solo enjoyer.

[lucid root]

it does fit the hardcore aspect though

[hearty badge]

Speaking of Barbs, was the life steal ability even good for Barbs during this PT?

[rose trellis]

Says the the fighter main lmao

[tulip hill]

ah! there is the key point
as for that, ehhh maybe, but between the different maps and potential different modes we don't want to split the playerbase up too much later down the line

[trim maple]

Honestly in terms of a no-gear mode where everyone has starter kits but all the loot droprates are lowered I think that could be fine

[summer storm]

I'm not here advocating for Fighter buffs nor talking about Fighter.

[rose trellis]

We always praise ranger nerfs

[lucid root]

i think it'd be a small dedicated subset, probably like 1% of the playerbase

i'd probably only play barebones if it came out, once you fill your inventory with candy the novelty kind of wears off

[rose trellis]

Also yeah imo they kinda went a little crazy with the classes that get free heals which means other classes need a way too

[tulip hill]

I'm sure it would be more than 1%
I'd probably play it every once in a while

[trim maple]

Honestly I really like how hard it feels to recover health

[hearty badge]

Perhaps the solution isn't to add healing abilities to all classes, but to reduce the effectiveness of healing abilities during solo play (medicine will remain effective since it is bought or found). In group comps, I can't speak about what will or wont work.

[tulip hill]

depending on what they do with the rest system this might not be a problem in the future

[atomic mountain]

The more popular a game is/becomes the more options are a good thing. If DaD isn’t just a FaD I could see multiple matchmaking options in the future being great.
(The same “don’t want to split playerbase” argument was used to shoot down the solo queue idea at first. Turns out it’s a huge success that didn’t affect team play queue much if at all)

[summer storm]

But there's no guarantee that a playerbase would be split evenly, then you get more issues with balancing as well, unless you want to start balancing around specific maps / game modes.

[tulip hill]

good point, and hell, they could do a rotation of gamemodes if they end up adding too many

[lucid root]

the only reason i brought up skele mages guaranteeing a weapon drop is because wizard is pretty useless without a book or orb, and without merchants for barebones it'd suck

[trim maple]

I think making changes to player balance itself is a step in the wrong direction when trying to balance the game around solo play, I think the more important issue to face is tooling maps like the Goblin Caves around 1v1 combat and adding ways for weaker solo classes to get an advantage over classes like Barbarian and Fighter

[summer storm]

Honestly think Wizard should be default spawning with book, I know Clerics have been requesting default spawn book as well.

[tulip hill]

I feel thats more of an issue with the scaling of the class than the loot tables, though I'm not opposed to having mobs drop items they logically would have

[hearty badge]

It's because the best games thrive when they offer the option to both sides of the playerbase. If Dark & Darker was forcing me to constantly group with people, I would lose interest. I enjoy my personal time and loner like tendencies - Doesn't mean that I wont play teams either.

[trim maple]

Wizard spawning with staff is fine because he doesn't already start with a melee weapon, but Cleric having book would be nice

[atomic mountain]

Oh I’m sure they’ll test out some sort of seasonal stuff. Perhaps it’ll be maps and/or modes, maybe even abilities too.

[summer storm]

I mean, I feel like Default spawns could be opened up a bit with options.

[trim maple]

I just think they should buff the staff slightly

[atomic mountain]

100%. Options are always great as long as there’s enough people there to enjoy them.

[tulip hill]

What if instead of starting with set gear you could slightly customize what you start with?

[lucid root]

like how slightly

[atomic mountain]

I would like to see that, but through questing perhaps.

[summer storm]

I've heard people talk about this and I think it's possible within reason.
People spoke about a system that uses points and you change equipment based on that, remove your armour and go in with a better weapon.
Sounds familiar because it's... Yep, you guessed it; A Mordhau thing.

Wouldn't mind seeing Clerics change grey staff for grey book. Very very minor adjustments like that.

Anything above that, nah.

[tawny python]

nah literally the cleric need be turn down . i feel like he took wizard place in term of dmg this pt .

[summer storm]

Only due to Judgement. Wizard was still king for Corridor Lockdowns.
Plus Wizard buffs are spooky if you play against a good wizard.

[trim maple]

Hot take but y'all are just butthurt that Cleric has some damaging spells now since he only had support spells before

[tulip hill]

I saw it got nerfed in the patch notes but how crazy was locust swarm in the third patch?

[hearty badge]

I will not fall for this bait 😏

[trim maple]

Judgement was a bit strong and locust swarm but otherwise he seemed fine to me tbh

[lucid root]

inb4 every class fills every role

[summer storm]

It wasn't crazy, it was basically just bugged. But Locust Swarm was uh... Insta-death with the right build.

[atomic mountain]

Maybe after an initial class quest a book is guaranteed to always be available at the Alchemist shop?

[tulip hill]

yeah, I heard it was incorrectly scaling with flat damage bonuses and since it damaged you 10 times second it would just insta drop anyone who touched it

[lucid root]

i like it

[summer storm]

I think Clerics would appreciate that a lot.
Honestly we'll have to see how relation works with merchants before making any crazy adjustments.

[lucid root]

romance mechanic with merchants 🙏

[tulip hill]

who is the hottest merchant?

[hearty badge]

I wanna cuddle with a goblin 🙂

[summer storm]

Goblin.

I'm out here hunting that Gobbusy.

[tulip hill]

idk man, Tavernmaster got that dad bod

[tulip hill]

I can tell you explore a lot of goblin caves

[summer storm]

I hunt naked rogues for a living.

[tulip hill]

good thing my rogue was clothed 90% of the time

[summer storm]

I take a Purple Windlass crossbow + Victory Strike and I one tap those little loot bugs and take everything they have.

[tulip hill]

wait I never considered that omg

[hearty badge]

One thing that was extremely disappointing in my opinion was the fact that you could not buy the hand crossbow from the Woodsman at all during the playtest. That, or within 50 hours of Bard gameplay I never once saw it available for purchase. It was an interesting weapon that increased the Bard's viability by a lot single handedly, which is why I thought it was strange it was another way to lock him out of his potential.

[summer storm]

Purple Windlass + Victory strike is a one tap on a naked rogue (assuming they have less than +3 strength on gear) and a wizard to the torso.

[lucid root]

selling common hand crossbows for 50g each easy money

[atomic mountain]

The Goblin would only be down to cuddle as a deception tactic; he’s out here trying to take advantage. Financially and physically, so watch out! 🤣

Valentine is the hispanic lover of the Merchants

[rare glacier]

My balancing ideas

Rogue double jump: Make it only usable if you aren't using chest armor ( The reason for this is making them agile but squishy. I ran naked rogue this last PT and was able to be 1-3 hit by pretty much everyone but I was annoying to deal with and most of the fights I won were me SWEATING since I could be one shot and I had to land 10-20 hits on people in purple to kill them.)
Cleric judgement: Line of Sight should be a must for this. There shouldn't be anything in the game that allows you to reduce a skill gap by this much. I'm fine with it locking on if you're body to body but if you break LoS the attack should be wasted and the cooldown activated
Barb Achilles: Change from physical damage to actual weapon damage. Is currently a broken skill and has an overwhelming damage stack. Have been one shotted while running from barb with a throwing axe. Is no good.
Wizard buffs: Remove haste from wizard and make invis movement need an additional perk like Rogue. A fun idea would be to add a perk that allows for the arcane missile things to be cast while moving but at a reduced movement speed.
Bard: I have little idea how bard works because it seemed like a weak class to me and I didn't even bother using it, but if Haste is removed from wizard, buff their movement speed song. Another idea I have is to make it so they have a song that increases rest effectiveness in regards to getting spells back.
Ranger arrows: tune stacks back down to 10 and add a quiver. Quiver allows for carrying 30-50 arrows in the sack, increase draw speed by 5-10 percent or reload by 10-15 percent, but reduces movement speed by 15-25. I was tossing around this idea with a friend but the quiver would be useful for PvE runs since movement speed isn't the MOST important thing with pve. And if people are aiming to mostly PvP they just wont run a quiver. This of course could actually work as a buff if ran with something that can buff movement.

Just some ideas.

[hearty badge]

Quiver should only ever hold 30 arrows, and anything more they pay for it by having to lose stacks of inventory space. Additionally, in order to load the quiver it should take some sort of channeling time, so that way they can't just cheese by tabbing fast and moving arrows to it. No quiver upgrades either, totally unnecessary.

[rare glacier]

I like it.

[summer storm]

Rogue double jump: Make it only usable if you aren't using chest armor ( The reason for this is making them agile but squishy. I ran naked rogue this last PT and was able to be 1-3 hit by pretty much everyone but I was annoying to deal with and most of the fights I won were me SWEATING since I could be one shot and I had to land 10-20 hits on people in purple to kill them.)

Or just change some areas of the Ruins so they can't parkour around the entire map. Double Jump isn't the issue. Double Jump on Ruins while Ruins has better average loot score and GQ level is.

Cleric judgement: Line of Sight should be a must for this. There shouldn't be anything in the game that allows you to reduce a skill gap by this much. I'm fine with it locking on if you're body to body but if you break LoS the attack should be wasted and the cooldown activated

You can just bait it by walking close and immediately 180, but I could understand increasing the channel time to 1 second meaning you have to trade damage.

Barb Achilles: Change from physical damage to actual weapon damage. Is currently a broken skill and has an overwhelming damage stack. Have been one shotted while running from barb with a throwing axe. Is no good.

Weapon damage perhaps, problem is you need to ensure it doesn't scale off of total weapon damage.

Bard: I have little idea how bard works because it seemed like a weak class to me and I didn't even bother using it, but if Haste is removed from wizard, buff their movement speed song. Another idea I have is to make it so they have a song that increases rest effectiveness in regards to getting spells back.

Honestly don't even think it's needed I think rest is so fast now, at least the few Wizard folk that I played with on this PT really appreciated the Meditation buffs, plus rest changes. But Bards having more songs is always 100% agreed with.

Ranger arrows: tune stacks back down to 10 and add a quiver. Quiver allows for carrying 30-50 arrows in the sack, increase draw speed by 5-10 percent or reload by 10-15 percent, but reduces movement speed by 15-25. I was tossing around this idea with a friend but the quiver would be useful for PvE runs since movement speed isn't the MOST important thing with pve. And if people are aiming to mostly PvP they just wont run a quiver. This of course could actually work as a buff if ran with something that can buff movement.

I actually think most Ranger players, based off of what I read in here, don't actually use a melee weapon ever. For anything. Using a bow to aggro and draw mobs slowly is good and all and you should be getting back all the arrows you use... And you default spawn with 30 arrows now anyway... Do Rangers just... Not use their melee weapon, ever?

[hearty badge]

No, double jump is a huge issue since they can circumvent skilled players in mobility and evading - You will not escape getting ganked by a good player, no matter how good you are if they have double jump to cut certain ledges. Being good should be displayed in how well you understand where and how you are moving in certain areas.

If double jump will exist, then it needs fine tuning in some manor or aspect that doesn't guarantee pure success.

[rare glacier]

I've found that if a ranger uses any melee weapon its a spear. Spear on ranger is pretty disgusting too. I like how its performing right now though.

[rare glacier]

I agree with this to a certain extent. This is the reason I suggested removing chest armor. I don't know if you've ever fought a full geared rogue with purples/yellows on, but they can become as tanky as a fighter but move a bit faster. This is why I say remove ability to wear chest armor and maybe restrict leg armor to only cloth or something. ORRRRRR make it so you can only double jump with movement of 320 or higher or something.

[summer storm]

Hard disagree, simply for the fact that the Dungeons are more constricted and move speed difference is the main problem, Especially when your class default starts with 35 Agility, not specifically Double Jump. I genuinely believe, as a Fighter main, who tried a bit of Rogue, that Double Jump is not the main issue.

There's much less value in double jump in Dungeon, you could argue a few spots in HR are alright for Double Jump. I think it's a good perk, this PT I think it might even be the best perk. But I don't think that Double Jump itself is the primary issue.

Like I said; Ruins being top open, easy to access top of walls and ability to circumvent areas, while also having higher loot score and GQ levels than the Dungeon was the problem.

If Ruins and Dungeon swapped loot score / GQ levels, you wouldn't see as many people complaining about Double Jump.

[rare glacier]

Its not as big an issue in my eyes solely because I was consistently getting 1-3 shot by almost everyone. Especially rangers.

[hearty badge]

I wont comment about any other map I experienced frustration on other than Goblin Caves - The biggest offender was any area where normally you could cut the edge off a ramp to begin ascending faster. Rogue double jump allows them to chase relentlessly while you're already down in tempo from being ganked hard. If I'm an experienced player who knows my mobility and the map I'm playing on inside and out, I should not be punished over a newer player slotting for that perk.

I can't imagine how silly it gets in castle and high-roller with geared and experienced Rogue players with double jump.

[rare glacier]

Not to be insulting, but it sounds like a skill issue, man. Maybe practice more anti rogue strats....

Like, when I was fighting people, it was clear who was used to dealing with rogues and who wasnt. The people who were needed extra improvising to put down....and I failed a lot lmao.

[summer storm]

I think it comes down to class selection. I've seen so many people in here talk with a straight face about Rogue buffs. The main reason being? Rogues can't kill geared fighters, Rogues get one shot by Barbs, Rogues get oneshot by clerics etc.

I agree, Double Jump is a really good perk. But I don't think it's a massive problem, there's a reason that 70% - 80% of Ruins lobbies were naked Rogues. Because they have:

• The highest base Agility (Mega fast open doors / chests)
• Double jump
• An open top map where they could walk above everything and avoid majority of PvE and also PvP.
• Said open top map with increased loot quality.

It was just a combination of things as opposed to just Double Jump.

But I could see an argument be made that Rogues shouldn't be able to change direction of their jump, that way you can more easily track them.

(Also I took a Purple Windlass Crossbow + Victory strike and it one taps naked rogues. Straight up one taps them, just dead. Gone. Donezo.)

[hearty badge]

I played the weakest class extensively this PT, and I can definitely tell you some anti-rogue strats most people wont think about. Trust me when I say that being chased and them being able to cut corners is just nuts.

[summer storm]

It's strong but I wouldn't say it's something that needs to be changed or fixed. It's just... The strongest possible choice, same with Fighter, all our abilities are dogwater except... Three? And one of them you take if you're going a specific build. So we're forced to run Second Wind, is it strong? Yeah. Could I remove it? Yeah. Would I place myself at a direct disadvantage doing so? Also yah.

[hearty badge]

Players who understand the precision in mobility should not be overruled by players slotting a talent, without some sort of drawback. Mobility is one of the most important aspects of any class, also being defined by skill/knowledge.

[summer storm]

Right but what if they changed it so that movement speed and mobility wasn't the most absolute ultimatum of what a class should focus?

[hearty badge]

Not going to disagree with you that Fighter's Second Wind is basically the equivalent of getting a 2nd life. Which means there is no reason not to run it.

[summer storm]

It's 50% of a health bar over 12 seconds, so 10% every ~2.1 seconds, which is alright. It's more an EHP increase than specifically a second life.

[abstract swallow]

Second Wind is good, but it falls off more than people want to admit. It's an ability designed to allow a comeback or efficient hit trading in a game where neither exist in a meaningful way in normal play.

[hearty badge]

It's different when the class largely mitigates damage as it's identity.

[tulip hill]

do keep in mind fighter can get by far the highest effective health already (against physical damage, not sure about magical)

[hearty badge]

In what is, technically a numbers games - Skilled fighter will always come out on top for the most part in an exchange, based on being able to mitigate and restore a 2nd life.

[abstract swallow]

This is correct in an overarching sense, but Fighter is less 'damage mitigation' and more 'effecient gear advantage' (unless you build around % phys reduction, since they can actually generate that exclusively).
Fight any class on your level, and you lose that class-niche almost entirely.

[summer storm]

Which Rogue can bypass and also us wearing Plate armour reduces our Magic Resist.

Also if you have below 0% of a Resistance, you also take 10% increased damage.

So if I have -30% Magic Resist, I take 40% increased damage.

@tulip hill Plate Armour gives the most Physical Resistance but actually puts your Magic Resistance into the negatives.

[hearty badge]

When more casters exist, Fighter will fall off in that sense - But for now, they are reigning kings in solo play.

[summer storm]

... I thought Rogues were, that was the whole point of the discussion.

[tulip hill]

I thought there were couple bits like Dark Plate that actually gave magic resist

[hearty badge]

Rogues were definitely kings this time around compared to any other PT imo.

[rugged eagle]

You gimp phys by using them though

[summer storm]

If you're going Plate, you're full committing to Phys Resistance

[rugged eagle]

Fighter is def strong solo since not many wizards/clerics in gobbo cave

[hearty badge]

I would see Clerics all the time in Goblin Cave - Fighter and Cleric for sure in the top meta, and Rogue fighting for a spot in 3rd or between those two. Rangers still great, but getting nerfed into the ground toned their position from last playtest.

[rugged eagle]

Going magic resist as fighter is kinds griefing max you can get is like 40%

[abstract swallow]

the inclusion of Warlock, an offensive and debuff oriented caster, alone will do more to invalidate Fighter as a class than an entire playtest of broken and overpriced tradechat ruining their equipment-oriented niche ever could have

[rare glacier]

Mm, I think rogue or fighter def solo kings but for different reasons. Fighter you're safer in almost every instance or at least you have a higher chance of surviving encounters. Rogue you can disengage and be a pacifist and just rat for loot.

[rugged eagle]

I always say this but rogue is king because their skills let them pick when to fight so a good rogue should always be starting a fight with tge advantage

[abstract swallow]

Fighter exists for AntiBall and that's about it.
Barbarian covers all of their niches better than they ever could, at less investment, and an easier learning curve.

[rare glacier]

For example I went from 500-2.2k gold in about an hour as rogue just avoiding pvp fights and looting but if I ever had an instance where I couldnt avoid pvp it was like....a 60 pecent chance I'd take the L.

[summer storm]

Fighter you're safer in almost every instance or at least you have a higher chance of surviving encounters.

I think you're making a bit of hyperbole by making Fighter sound the most broken thing ever.

You realise it's only a 50% HP heal, and that it takes 12 seconds, it's basically a single-use high end health potion.

It's not +100% damage resistance +50 Strength

[rugged eagle]

If you let any other class pick their fights theyre strong simply because they die less

[abstract swallow]

I was the exact opposite this playtest. Once my Rogue hit level 10, I could clear entire Crypt lobbies solo with just a 100gp rupture build and a handcrossbow. Double Jump simply breaks the game.

[hearty badge]

It does; mobility is a key factor in almost every excursion that comes down to either baiting, juking, or widdling down your opponent.

[tulip hill]

60% isn't bad assuming it wasn't always 1v1s
any given fair fight to the death there's a 50% chance you die

[rare glacier]

Not at all. I mained fighter pt4 and was 1 or 2 tapping people with halberd. I could confidently solo.

[rugged eagle]

There is no solution high mobility classes will always be consistent

[abstract swallow]

Even just straight survivability. Jumping in place with a midair backstep was enough to ghost almost any hit if timed decently.
I heard tons of arrows, axes, and swords hit me but deal 0 damage thanks to double jump.

[rugged eagle]

Until a cleric judges you for 80%

[abstract swallow]

if you're a solo you aren't fighting groups with a Cleric, you're running or dropping the cleric first at range before engaging

[summer storm]

Chief, I'mma be real with you. If you're 1 or 2 tapping people with a halberd, maybe they should consider:

A) Wearing helmet
B) Wearing the rest of their gear
C) Turning on their monitor.

[vivid sparrow]

or just block that mf

big fat overhead is easy pickings for that juicy longsword riposte

[rugged eagle]

Cleric can still demolish in the 1v1 with the i win button

[summer storm]

OR MAYBE, A CRAZY IDEA. DON'T RUSH IN TO FIGHT A -FIGHTER- BECAUSE A -FIGHTER-, AS THE NAME SUGGESTS IS REALLY GOOD AT CLOSE RANGE -FIGHTING-.

[hearty badge]

Unavoidable when the class is allowed to use a Crossbow, and has speed rush skills.

[rare glacier]

I mean they were but 🤷‍♂️

[abstract swallow]

purple halberd with non-damage stacked gear can hit for 120+, which can drop anyone short of an equally geared cleric or better
it's hard to accel, but it can be done consistently if you practice the angle

[rugged eagle]

Wait people were getting caught by clank fighters?

[summer storm]

So Rangers are automatically impossible to avoid because they can use ranged?

Speed rush? So every Wizard in the game is also unavoidable?

[abstract swallow]

what do you think throwing knives/franc axes are for?

[hearty badge]

Hence why rangers were, and will be good forever.

[rugged eagle]

You need sprint to return to normal speed lol if youre getting caught idk what to say

Maybe fat plate clerics cant run but thats it

[rare glacier]

I think distinctions between average skill opponents and above average skill opponents need to be made...

[summer storm]

But you can avoid rangers.

Let me lay this out as best as I can:

• You're complaining that you can't avoid Fighters because they can use a Crossbow and Sprint.

• I'm pointing out that Rangers and Wizards exist.

• By your logic, you are always dying to and never able to avoid Rangers and Wizards.

Yes or no?

[latent tundra]

The thing is with ranger is if you have high pdr they literally need like 15 shots to kill you

[hearty badge]

Rangers and Wizard do not have have the benefit of mitigating large damage. That's the difference. Fighter has that benefit, also has basically a second life, and speed rush allows you to win any trade if you know your numbers.

[rugged eagle]

True even at 50% they tickled me

[latent tundra]

But they slap in pve

[rare glacier]

Hella.

[trim maple]

You can avoid ranged attacks but not consistently, and it all depends on how good their aim is. If they have good enough aim you're just kinda screwed regardless

[hearty badge]

☝️Which again, adds to the effectiveness of fighters using a Crossbow.

[rare glacier]

Just want to play Dead Island 2 but Epics authenticator aint authenticating. Send help.

[summer storm]

CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK

"Hmm, I wonder what that noise could be the other side of this door, I shall open this door and challenge this stranger to a fight."

Immediately rush into fight a 80% PDR as a Barbarian/Cleric/Rogue whatever

Die

"My god, if only there was some foresight for me to avoid this situation."

Credits roll

[rugged eagle]

LMAO yeah pretty much

[hearty badge]

True, until you get thrown into a position where you're sandwiched by someone perhaps camping, or being chased from multiple directions. Of course you're not going to intentionally run into the armored target, but the interactions in which you're forced... it's an entirely different story, and that's what we're focusing on here.

[rugged eagle]

If people commit to running a fighter cannot catch fun little game you can play just sit behind a door and fighter player will die of old age before they open it

[summer storm]

That's just bad positioning and bad awareness, people don't play aggressive enough to secure routes.

If you were forced into that position, that's either a bad play by you, or a good play by someone else.

You should be punished for it and they should be rewarded if they capitalise on it.

That is the game.

[latent tundra]

Even with high pdr a barb can dumpster you

[rugged eagle]

Yup kinda bs tbh spend 1000g on chad plate to get dumped on

[trim maple]

reckless attack go brrt

[summer storm]

People throw out buzzwords and phrases in here and immediately forget them. People complain about the movement speed meta and double jump, here's a reminder: Movement speed is king.

Someone in full plate is not catching you. If you holster and close a door, that Fighter will take twice as long to open it due to dogwater base resourcefulness.
They can speed themselves up, but they're also wearing full plate, it should balance out.

[trim maple]

u can reach 120+ dmg headshots on a gray axe with the right perks now, it's pretty nice

[latent tundra]

By buddies cleric had 85% pdr and the 3 damage perk and a headshot with no buffs did like 20 dam with a horseman

[abstract swallow]

If you holster and close a door, that Fighter will take twice as long to open it due to dogwater base resourcefulness.
I will NEVER get over how they gave a class 15 in all stats, and then gave them no way to benefit from 3/5ths of them

[hearty badge]

This is being intellectually dishonest imo, I wont bother engaging with this. Especially when the game can encourage camping.

[rugged eagle]

Absolutely correct had a smurf game in gobbo cave where the lobby was running there is no way a plate fighter can catch someone who jsnt also in plate

[latent tundra]

You’re at a disadvantage pushing people if they’re aware you’re going to rush

[hearty badge]

Yes, which is why it's easy to figure out player behavior and to play accordingly.

[rare glacier]

Mm, I think game sense is king. Is a blanket statement.

[rugged eagle]

Even with sprint/move speed perk you are so slow nobody is forced to fight you unless they mess up

[summer storm]

Intellectually dishonest, what the kark are you chatting about. You're making me sound like I'm Megamind or something.

If someone is:

• Camping
• Full plate
• 80% PDR
• You're playing a physical damage class
• They kill you immediately as you walk through a door.

Screw it man, sure. If they do that then it's whatever, but I refuse to believe that this scenario that you're talking about that is such a major issue, happens frequently enough to warrant it being classified as a genuine issue.

[latent tundra]

Thats why wiz cleric barb is insane, because buffs counteract that disadvantage

[hearty badge]

It is a genuine issue is a numbers game, which Dark & Darker is at the end of the day... And that's totally fine. It is what it is at the moment.

[latent tundra]

Thats why the game is amazing tho, positioning and environment matter a lot

[tulip hill]

Imma be honest yall, I have no idea that the argument is at this point
a geared out fighter is very powerful but can be countered with specific strats
what is controversial about this?

[summer storm]

Movement speed is also a number, resourcefulness is also a number.

Most people have a higher number than a full Plate Fighter. Most.

[rugged eagle]

Does fighter counter any class but ranger? So many classes deal magic or ignore armour

[hearty badge]

The argument here I believe, was that Fighters were reigning kings in solo play due to the fact that the skills and tools they have are currently amazing in the meta. When more magical classes exist, it becomes less of an issue.

[summer storm]

"Were"

[latent tundra]

Fighter is strong against cleric

[hearty badge]

Yes, the playtest is over in a past-tense.

[latent tundra]

Locust cheese aside

[tulip hill]

these are just observations!

[rugged eagle]

But judgement though?

[abstract swallow]

Fighters haven't been the kings of solo since PT2 before the movement speed nerfs and Fighter's weapons getting hard gutted.
That was, respectively:
PT3: Wizard/Ranger
PT4: Barbarian
PT5: Rogue

[summer storm]

I don't think many people would agree that Fighter was the reigning king in solo play when:

• Pre Nerfed Cleric existed
• Rogue on Ruins existed
• Ranger exists

[rare glacier]

Hate it. Already said my piece on it.

[latent tundra]

Judgement cant one shot, if you got high pdr you win that fight cuz they think you’re low but in reality they just chunked you, really depends how buffed they are tho

[hearty badge]

I personally don't believe Barbarian has ever been in the top tbh. Given what was available in PT 4, Barb was still lacking.

[summer storm]

joshJ — Today at 02:24
Judgement cant one shot

My sweet summer child.

Jokes aside, it can't literally one shot. But you can push judgement damage very high.

[rare glacier]

If Im being completely honest, I don't think any class is really "king" That seems kind of like a cop out to me. At a higher skill level, fights are decided mostly on positioning and situational awareness.

[tulip hill]

PT4 ranger flew under the radar imo

[latent tundra]

Dawg ive never been hit for more than half from a judgement, idk what cleric is stacking all mag dam in every slot but ig if they did that then maybe

[rare glacier]

I mean...it can. I got one shot by it on my rogue. ._. wasn't a good time. Felt real bad.

[hearty badge]

I believe if Fighter has second wind, he will still beat Cleric once he is within range and can stick to the target... Which he can.

[summer storm]

I've met some cracked weird Cleric builds in HR

[latent tundra]

All im sayin is, if you got high pdr on a fighter, it kinda baits them cuz they think ur low

[abstract swallow]

PT4 Franc Axes put Barbs at the top of their game, plus they had bugged Felling Axe ON TOP of the S-Tier HMAxe build
This was the same playtest Wizards ate back to back nerfs, Rangers spent half of with bugged projectile drop mechanics and with ranged weapons not correctly firing, etc. Every Barbarian hard counter was at their lowest point that playtest, and they were at their best even without buffball.

[tulip hill]

rogue is painfully susceptible to magic because of their very low will

[rugged eagle]

The issue I have with judgement and rogue poison is that as a fighter the more geared you are the more damage you take from these 2 very simple abilities

[latent tundra]

But cleric has the benefit of prepping before a fight with mad buffs so you can still get dumpstered for sure

[summer storm]

Cleric and Wizard are meta because they are the only direct buff classes that can omega buff melee frontline? No. 😮

[hearty badge]

Hmmmm... Noted, I did see the Felling Axe builds wreck - But it's still hard to believe it reigned supreme over stuff like Rangers still having infinite ammo.

[rare glacier]

Dont let them hit their final form. Or just back track until buffs wear off. >.>

[rugged eagle]

Everyone can agree that rogue poison and judgement are very easy to land and if you're full plate in fighter you take extra magic damage so in judgements case with a semi-geared cleric they actually can one shot you!

[latent tundra]

I love that certain classes are stronger against others tho, I think the dynamic is really good rn except for maybe barbs achilles strike being too silly

[abstract swallow]

the issue with judgement isn't its 1v1 potential, it's fine there
the real, absolutely busted part of Judgement is that it's a literal, 100% free pick if you just drop it on anyone engaging your frontliner
there are 0 builds that could survive Judgement and any followup hit from a melee class

[rugged eagle]

Speaking from experience where a barely geared cleric used judgement on me with my full plate set and took me down to 20%

[rugged eagle]

Class counters should exist absolutely I'm fine with wizard dumpstering on a fighter but I always thought fighters should trash rogue but then they give rogue 15% armour pen and free magic damage

[tight kiln]

Judgement should be a cast like chain lightning or lightning strike not an auto tracking skill

[hearty badge]

I think a common comp I would see constantly during PT4 was Cleric, x2 Ranger. It's exactly as you describe; if the enemy engages first you can just judgement and burst someone down tempo wise.

[rugged eagle]

Like why? Rogues are meant to be killing squishies so why are they being given perks/skills to make killing tanky dudes even easier just makes no sense

[tulip hill]

wait I just saw this, barbarian was literally the best is almost all categories in PT4 according to the data (and the number of complaints)

[rare glacier]

IM SAYIN, THANK YOU

[latent tundra]

Rogues 15% pdr is way too high

[abstract swallow]

Rangers were good that playtest, but bows/crossbows literally not working ended many of my HR runs, and the presence of Buffball acted as a hard counter to Ranger in geared play
if anything, Barbs being so good made Rangers even BETTER as a burst-phys damage class with their stacking traps

[summer storm]

I think a common comp I would see constantly during PT4 was Cleric, x2 Ranger.

That hasn't changed. The best meta comp for quick clear Ghost King is still 2 Rangers 1 Cleric.

[tight kiln]

Yeah the tracking is so free u can judgement people through walls

[latent tundra]

Thats 3 gear rolls like maxed out

[summer storm]

I've seen Judgement pass through doors as well, it's funny.

[hearty badge]

That's really surprising, because with 200 hours spent I have never seen such mockery yet. I know a good Barb when I see it, but I never felt like it was an overwhelming class by comparison. Actually, being killed by a Barb felt the most balanced by everything else in comparison.

[rugged eagle]

Can't think of a more broken skill then judgement and they give it to the buff support class

[tight kiln]

My question is how did the devs see bard competing with cleric 😂

[latent tundra]

If you’re not rocking a 1h on barb stacking flat phys you’re playing wrong

[rare glacier]

Bard is there solely for making your party smile. Its an RP class for sure.

[rugged eagle]

They should give fighter a skill that deletes 80% of someones health by flexing your halberd at them

[tight kiln]

U gotta run a 1 handed primary 2 handed secondary for breaking doors

[summer storm]

Agreed, they should give Judgement to Fighter and rename the class to "Paladin"

[rare glacier]

Thats called left click ._.

[tulip hill]

🤷 idk what to say then, every time you voice your personal experiences its very different from the typical person

[rugged eagle]

Genius

[latent tundra]

Its kinda disgusting how much a 1h does on barb

[tight kiln]

Barb has never not been a strong class this playtest barb peaked from an op standpoint with Achilles not sure why more people didn’t play it

[rugged eagle]

If they extend halberd range by 2m I will be happy to left click people to death but until then I want my fighter judgement

[tight kiln]

Barb with Achilles is the strongest barb has ever been and made it 10x stronger than any other class this playtest.

[summer storm]

not sure why more people didn’t play it

Rogue Double Jump, Ruins and clickbait "OMG BEST STRAT EVER" youtube videos existed.

[rugged eagle]

Atleast give fighter better 2h perks or something they get nothing special

[rare glacier]

If you play it right you can get an opening hit on people for free with it before they can usually hit you. Is a lil rough.

[latent tundra]

And then achilles scales with flat phys and phys power

[tight kiln]

The amount of clips I have 1 shotting a rogue with a Francesca is absurd. Barb was the best ranged class in the game this playtest

[rugged eagle]

Dude trust me I am the original halberd main the ancient one of halberds but even halberds can't compete with prayer

[tulip hill]

yeah, I hope fighter gets something for 2h weapons

[summer storm]

Yeah, same I do on Fighter with Purple Windlass + Victory strike. I one tap naked Rogues.

[tulip hill]

that said though, shield master does work for longsword, letting your first riposte come out stupid fast

[rare glacier]

Gotta play chaotic-lawful athiest fighter then, obviously.

[rugged eagle]

[tight kiln]

Fighter needs a perk rework they only have 3-4 viable options

[vivid sparrow]

something ill have to try next time

[grizzled falcon]

Longsword is busted using defense perks. I'm afraid that a combination of defense and 2 hand perks would make longsword beyond op

[rugged eagle]

Slayer was a really good addition but why do fighters need to jump through hoops for 5 damage when barbs get it for using an axe... AND ALL THEIR WEAPONS ARE AXES

[latent tundra]

The 15% defense when blocking and faster attack after block feels really nice

[rugged eagle]

Why yes I would like +5 damage on everything for my halberd please game thank you

[abstract swallow]

longsword will never be more than a pubstomping tool unless they really crank the numbers or fix its mediocre moveset

[tulip hill]

I actually really like longsword fighter, though they should probably nerf the block perks and instead make shield a little more viable without them

[hearty badge]

Oh man, if you think that's bad, let me tell you about a guy who uses songs as his identity and what he was given this PT 😂

[tight kiln]

Change the first swing of the longsword and it would be 10x better

[rare glacier]

😂

[latent tundra]

You’re just too slow on fighter wearing plate

[tight kiln]

I don’t even consider bard to be a class tbh ur basically playing a character to use a rapier with 0 skills

[rugged eagle]

Fighter longsword just gets eaten alive by any ranged class as they clank over to them

[tulip hill]

what are you talking about?

[latent tundra]

Like man even 80% is slow of base ms but 70% is rough man

[rugged eagle]

When paladin gets added they can clank around with us fighter chads

[grizzled falcon]

I too love longsword fighter but that's just the reality rn

[abstract swallow]

longsword is very good at hard-countering undergeared or low-skill players, but doesn't have a strong niche outside that

[hearty badge]

But that's why you run that speed ability when you're wearing full plate. I mean even with his slow interaction speeds, good fighters could just stall a room of agro'd mobs until his cd's are up, then clear enough distance to open a door if needed.

[tight kiln]

They need to add another healing / buffing class so that they have something to balance cleric against. Right now it is hard to nerf/change a class that is 100% necessary in 95% of team comps / boss fights

[rugged eagle]

Fighter was really fun this playtest tbh I think it's in a good spot it's just that rogue being rogue has overshadowed literally everything

[latent tundra]

My problem with longsword is losing a 40 armor heater shield

[agile inlet]

Add a quiver to ranger that come equipped in the cape slot that can hold arrow and bolts and can only be equiped by ranger

[grizzled falcon]

Absolutely disagree lol, it's busted against everyone. Longsword riposte hits a barb before the attack that was parried even finishes

[rugged eagle]

Druid incoming to alleviate your worries

[tight kiln]

Only reason I run arming / shield don’t even block ever just worth the armor rating

[hearty badge]

It's supposed to be Bard, and I don't believe buffs and dots are good for this game. The ones that are in now are fine, but they shouldnt be adding a bunch like if this is WoW.

[tight kiln]

That is what everyone said about bard

[summer storm]

How many Arrows / Bolts do you think a Ranger should be taking into a match, or what do you think is a good number?

[rugged eagle]

Dude sprint is not nearly enough to offset the move penalty from wearing full plate you only get caught by a fighter if you mess up by letting him get close enough to hit you

[agile inlet]

a got 4 stacks 60 arrows / bolts

[latent tundra]

I was at capped pdr with taunt up or when blocking and the attack after defense is almost instant with a falchion

[tight kiln]

30-45 for pvp 70-90 for boss fights

[rugged eagle]

And a plate fighter without sprint is a sitting duck that is the perfect time to fight and destroy them because you can weave in and out of range to hit them and they can't do anything about it with their 2 ton plate armour

[tight kiln]

Use throwing axes to catch people I honestly never had a problem with the movement speed it felt pretty normal relative to other classes

[rugged eagle]

0 delete rangers from the game

[agile inlet]

this is to make ranger a bit more better with bows than fighter because he wouldn't be able to wear a quiver

[latent tundra]

Dude taunt is honestly sick af

[hearty badge]

Seeing fighter shouldn't be an unstoppable juggernaut force, it should be an incentive in wanting to kill them and to see if they have valuables. Part of the strategic gameplay is understanding how to put them in a vulnerable position to waste their CD's, especially second wind.

[summer storm]

Yeah but Rangers have access to bow specific perks.

[rugged eagle]

If you have access to any magic damage or armour pen which is a majority of the classes a plate fighter is not some invincible brick wall that can shrug off everything

[agile inlet]

still the versatility of fighter with a bow is unmatched

[hearty badge]

☝️

[summer storm]

If they take a perk that lets them use a bow, but also reduces their damage with a bow as well.

[rugged eagle]

In 3v3 with a pocket that's a different story but in solo unless you are also a fighter then gl lol another plate fighter is not a raid boss

[latent tundra]

You 3 shot a fighter that has like 65% pdr on barb with a horseman

[tight kiln]

Wizard is going to be buffed next patch and hugely meta again making fighter not viable unless ur stacking magic res jewelry and magic res on all ur gear

[rugged eagle]

Exactly like has nobody played barb into fighter? Or if you really want to shit on fighter just go wizard and laugh at their move speed

[agile inlet]

and i think a quiver would add a buff for ranger because he would be able to hold more arrows and not have to compromise with his inventory

[latent tundra]

I really think barbs base health should be tuned, I shouldn’t be able to run around with 170 health, a cleric prot, a shield prot and fight people with 100 base health

[tight kiln]

Barb wins matchup against fighter in my opinion and has insane magic damage reduction as someone who has played both in high lb

[rugged eagle]

Just split hp gain stat into constitution boom problem solved no more tanky rogues with 40 strength

[summer storm]

It's not an opinion, in most outright DPS checks, Barb beats Warrior. That's a fact.

[alpine tree]

How do i post on the suggestion bot

[latent tundra]

I’d be most scared of a max pdr fighter with a falchion and heater over anything melee

[rugged eagle]

It's a skill matchup which is barb favoured unless they run horseman and get up close then it is a left click matchup

[hearty badge]

Does Barb beat Fighter with purely buffs active, like Strength shout? I fail to understand where the advantage is at, unless it's Felling Axe with headshots

[latent tundra]

Pop rage right before you attack and achilles strike and they die in 2-3 hits

[summer storm]

[rugged eagle]

If barb has shouts up it becomes very difficult to strafe but a decent barb is running 10 of the other bs barb skills instead that just ignore armour/insta kill you

[tight kiln]

My horseman on geared barb did 120 a swing my arming sword on geared fighter did 75 a swing with full phys damage buffs. My geared barb also has 166 health

[latent tundra]

My achilles was adding 28 flat to my attacks not accounting for the 5 you take when you move

[hearty badge]

Oh with Achilles Strike? Yeah def - I was thinking more around the common issues around PT4, it's very clear Barb got some very good tools for PT5, and it makes sense.

[true pivot]

does breakthrough cancel the movement damage from achilles?

[rugged eagle]

Don't get me wrong barb should be winning in melee they are the king melee class after all but it's a bit sad how helpless fighter can be in the face of one

[tight kiln]

It was pretty bugged I think it was more like 40 dmg a step tbh

[hearty badge]

Oh right, they have the armor cut ability - I can see it now if it lands

[summer storm]

No, only movement suppressions such as slows.

[latent tundra]

But even without achilles the other skills are really strong, fear for pve if ur solo and 25% health shout in group play is nutty

[rugged eagle]

Yep it's such an insane ability the barb has to either be really undergeared or complete dog at the class which going by most barb mains happens quite often

[tight kiln]

A high skill good movement barb is a menace

[latent tundra]

Cuz rage gives 30 flat health ontop of scaling strength for health, so 190-200*1.25 plus prot shields and cleric prot

[rugged eagle]

I think I could get ChatGPT to pilot a barb and kill a lobby would prob do better then the average barb

[latent tundra]

I think barb would still be really strong without achilles being absolutely busted tho despite the 5 flat nerf on axes

[rugged eagle]

The only saving grace fighter gets is crossbow vs barb

[hearty badge]

The amount of games Fighter has stalemated me in over the last portal available in Goblin Caves 💀

[steel widget]

or block the hit

[rugged eagle]

What is this blocking you speak of me halberd main me left click

[grizzled falcon]

If a longsword fighter parries a barb its like a guaranteed kill

[steel widget]

if one of barbs hits gets blocked they normally die they dont have that many resistances

[grizzled falcon]

And it's not that hard to block it

[rugged eagle]

Ye longsword is good vs barbs because of all those juicy overhead swings halberd is just too good to give up though

[steel widget]

tbh most of the tiems it just comes down to a cleric gap and who pockets frontline better

[grizzled falcon]

I think your issue is that Halberd just doesn't have anything going for it. Definitely needs some perks

[steel widget]

uh no, the damage is crazy theres a reason every top fighter uses it

[rugged eagle]

Woah woah woah I see some halberd slander here. Doesn't have anything going for it? It is absolutely insane in the damage department

The only weapon that doesn't have anything going for it is the spear imo why would I ever pick it over halberd unless devs release a new map that is 100% tunnels you cannot swing in

[steel widget]

its a ranger weapon not a fighter weapon :D and i love it

[rugged eagle]

Agreed ranger is the best use for it the weapon is very misplaced on a fighter

[steel widget]

also, wizard uniques when :(

[hearty badge]

Ranger being forced into melee weapons was a good thing this PT.

[rugged eagle]

Staff unique just to watch all the wizard mains seethe

[steel widget]

i would legit cry

[rugged eagle]

Staff is the coolest looking wizard weapon let's give it a unique

[summer storm]

Technically there are Wizard uniques.

You can get Orb to roll as Unique. It just doesn't have any unique effects.

[rugged eagle]

Rangers barely even existed this playtest in the gobbo caves it was wild

[steel widget]

well named item

[rugged eagle]

New named items didn't even come with special effects like the new named plate helm

[hearty badge]

Yeah, because most of them were displeased with the changes. 😂

[steel widget]

i think the changes are fine if arrows take up less space i was running boss runs with my team and i barely had space for loot

[rugged eagle]

Seething rangers is always a good sign well done devs

"Noooooo you can't take away our infinite arrows! How will we cheese the entire game?"

[summer storm]

"Bro I take 120 arrows into Goblin cave, never pick up my arrows and never use a melee weapon. Give us a quiver right now as compensation."

[abstract swallow]

Ranger and Fighter will likely both see huge number drops because they were the designated novice classes, plus Ranger is no longer exceptionally cost-effective for PvE content now that they have to give both space and cash investment for dungeon runs

[steel widget]

yeah but why they gotta take up so much damn space 😢

[rugged eagle]

Fighter will never see number drops because it is the beginner friendly jack of all trades anybody who wants to just shut their brain off or learn the game will find their place as a fighter

[hearty badge]

At least the Quiver idea is a cute and fundamentally plausible way to give the class more to its identity lol

[summer storm]

And Bow specific perks / abilities aren't?

[abstract swallow]

Quivers are already soft confirmed by the devs, and fit well with the inevitable inclusion of wearable containers + weight
Rangers are the Resourcefulness class so them starting with a Quiver makes sense

[summer storm]

Problem is that Quivers will have to be absurdly rare and default quiver never rolls with stats.

So it matches the current iteration of how rare capes are.

[rugged eagle]

• Because fighter can use literally everything they're really flexible with loot so it's very easy to get some gear

[rugged eagle]

Yes backpacks are indeed confirmed not sure if that will include quivers but you'd assume so

[abstract swallow]

you know your class is fun and well designed when their redeeming early game feature is "can eat trash off the floor like a filthy animal better than other classes"

[steel widget]

but fighter was a lil too strong this playtest i feel after the barb nerf they seemed a bit too prevalent, i think nerf sprint a little bit imo

[rugged eagle]

Exactly let me play my trash eater in peace devs

[summer storm]

• Press x

• Turn 180 degrees

• Hold w for 6 seconds.

[abstract swallow]

unironically it's what I enjoy most about Fighter, hopefully the Class Training system obsoletes the need for Weapon Master and lets us just pick up proficiencies normally

[rugged eagle]

Nerf sprint? heresy if they nerf sprint fighter will actually be dead I'd rather they nerf second wind before sprint

[steel widget]

maybe not sprint, but i think it needs a small nerf after that barb nerf

[rugged eagle]

Most other classes you vendor/trade 90% of the gear you find but with fighter if you find something you might aswell try it out

[abstract swallow]

uh, bro?
barb got BUFFED this playtest

[summer storm]

But why does Fighter need to be nerfed if Barb got nerfed. I'm not following, plus Barb got buffed.

[tight kiln]

What barb nerf?

[steel widget]

it legit lost half damage on a neccesary perk?

[rugged eagle]

Let fighter eat scraps on the floor in peace no more nerfs please they better not touch my halberd

[abstract swallow]

did you not even make a Barb to see the changes?
they got a free +10% headshot multiplier with axes lmao

[tight kiln]

Achilles

[steel widget]

my friends a barb player and we looked over all perks on release, and i did forget ab achilles im ngl. but after its nerf i think it was fine

[rugged eagle]

Man thinks barb got nerfed The only reason more people weren't playing barb was because of how busted rogue was on the new map so everyone jumped ship

[abstract swallow]

an actual Barbarian nerf would be them implementing diminishing returns for stats instead of softcaps and nerfing Rage

[tight kiln]

Barb was the strongest it has ever been this playtest just no one was smart enough to test out a few skills

[abstract swallow]

ironic that Barb, king of PT4, was the strongest counter to Rogues with Achilles Francesca in PT5

[rugged eagle]

I am truly praying that double jump gets looked at because alot of the planned maps most likely will also have entrances which means even more open maps to abuse rogue on

[steel widget]

on top of maps is a little unbalanced lmao

[rugged eagle]

It was fun getting into the forest lobby and seeing only naked rogues

[tight kiln]

Rogue double jump was rlly good on castle I don’t rlly think it is that strong tho just needs a cooldown on it

[rugged eagle]

Knew you were in for a good time when before you even cleared your spawn pve they had traversed the walls of your spawn area and had come for blood

[abstract swallow]

it badly needs a cooldown, even just for movement/footwork it is ungodly powerful (disregarding the ability to ghost hits with it)

[summer storm]

Yeah I've been saying this, Rogue Double Jump worth is inflated by the existence of:

• Ruins
• Ruins having better loot
• Ruins having guaranteed triple extraction at the end

[tight kiln]

Castle and ruins it was good castle because u could jump across to mid 😂

[rugged eagle]

But the devs have been a bit wacky with balance there is a datamined spell for wizard that will let them fly My soul aches at the thought of next playtest

[latent tundra]

Achilles wasnt busted cuz of the ms reduction

[abstract swallow]

Ruins also needs to make top-end surfaces you aren't supposed to stand on make you 'slip' off like the old roofs in EFT

[tight kiln]

I mean flying is useless unless it is ruins or castle

[steel widget]

where did u hear this???

[rugged eagle]

Bro in forest they will prestige class into attack helicopter

[abstract swallow]

old news, there's also an unlocking spell but we aren't supposed to talk about datamined content

[rugged eagle]

Ban incoming

[tight kiln]

No Achilles was beyond busted the only people who don’t think it was didn’t use or want it not to be nerfed to keep abusing it

[latent tundra]

Oh ik it was absolutely insane

[tight kiln]

Being able to one shot a rogue/ranger/cleric/wizard and be able to take 90% health off a fighter/barb before even getting close is wild

[latent tundra]

It should only have ms reduction, no damage on movement

[abstract swallow]

Achilles is incredible because not only are the numbers amazing and it can be applied at range
but it gets better against opponents the more geared they are due to how its tendon damage works

[umbral valve]

It’s time to introduce high-roller Goblin Caves and leaderboards for solo players.

[tight kiln]

Yeah I could see that or make it so u actually have to hit people in the ankle and it doesn’t proc on Francesca

[rugged eagle]

When are they gonna stop these weapon skills applying to ranged/throwing weapons? It's not fun getting poisoned by a rogue and turning that 1 damage throwing knife into a quarter of your health

[summer storm]

In which case I'd argue that Rogue shouldn't be able to use throwing knife to apply poison.

[tight kiln]

I agree

[abstract swallow]

rupture on throwing knives was cool
rupture+WPA on hand crossbow needs a call to human resources for sexual harassment

[rugged eagle]

Rogue cretins figured out near the end of playtest that by combining the naked double jump strat with hand crossbow/throwing knives they could turn into something unholy

[latent tundra]

Weakpoint and rupture proccing on a hand crossbow shot

[rugged eagle]

The only saving grace was that crossbows were bugged the entire playtest and it was especially bad on hand crossbow

[latent tundra]

Ya they wouldnt shoot half the time

[rugged eagle]

I got no clue how people kept using the hand crossbow it took one time for it to annoy me out of ever using it again it's a testament to the rogue players commitment to evil

[summer storm]

Let Ranger duel wield hand crossbows

[rugged eagle]

Death by a thousand paper cuts

[latent tundra]

They sold for so much, it was fat muns getting them

[rugged eagle]

Hand crossbows dropped for you? They were elusive as cloaks

[latent tundra]

Ya I got quite a few, I didnt even pick up the white ones for the longest time because I didnt think they sold for so much

[abstract swallow]

yeah, anything added but not yet added to shops is always a killer
quarterstaves were like that too until they got added to shops

[rugged eagle]

Even stuff like spears that would show up in the shop sold for alot and I have no clue why

Petition for ironmace to add riposte to spear to make it a good fighter weapon

[latent tundra]

Stuff like halberd and spear feel so good for pve

[summer storm]

"Fix" the Longsword parry hitbox by making it 1/2 the blade and not 1/3

[latent tundra]

My problem with a lot of the 2handers is the environment blocking swings

[rugged eagle]

Longsword soys when their block area isn't bigger then a shield

[abstract swallow]

learn to angle your hits, only truly garbage attacks like Longsword-3 clank out of your control, or that clanking can't be exploited for faster recovery

[vivid sparrow]

longsword block is easy enough as is in my opinion

[summer storm]

Yeah? That's me. Cope harder. Buff my parry. It doesn't need to be buffed. I just want it buffed to sew chaos in balance discussion.

[rugged eagle]

Halberd chads when their right click is instead objectively useless

[vivid sparrow]

i nearly dropped a geared duo with a grey longsword ripost, only my lack of helmet was my downfall against barb axe

[rugged eagle]

Chaotic evil fighter main

[abstract swallow]

honestly? just give it a sourspot block with the rest of the blade, watching attacks go THROUGH the blocking object when LITERALLY EVERY OTHER BLOCK IN THE GAME IS SPECIFICALLY BASED AROUND THE EXACT MODEL OF THE BLOCKING OBJECT TO THE POINT THAT IT IS SPECIFICALLY CALLED OUT IN MULTIPLE LOADING SCREEN TIPS is complete garbage

[rugged eagle]

First time? I love weapons phasing through a shield to cut me very fun and enjoyable experience

[latent tundra]

Idk blocking feels kinda jank in general even with shields

[abstract swallow]

blocking was especially bad this playtest, which was a shame
PT3/4 was fairly consistent and getting better but even without Zwei/Spear I was chewing through people's blocks or just walking straight through them

[summer storm]

Yeah, as much as I joke about Longsword parry getting buffed, it's more that blocking in general is just absolutely dogwater because stuff constantly phases through and hits you regardless.

[rugged eagle]

My issue was barb axe blatantly going through stuff

[latent tundra]

Achilles wasnt consumed on block either

[rugged eagle]

But this playtest the servers were laggy af so I can give them a pass on client/server desync

It would be if next time we get to play the fighter shield skills did anything

I sure do love giving up 50% EHP or revert movement back to baseline skill for 25 damage and a block which doesn't do anything

[latent tundra]

I really like the 50% faster swing after blocking

[rugged eagle]

Neither of the skills can be activated while blocking and the shield slam doesn't even get block frames I can't even

[latent tundra]

That perk felt phatty

[rugged eagle]

Ironmace singlehandedly saving shield builds with this one perk

[latent tundra]

Hournskull was a phat addition too for pdr stacking

[abstract swallow]

Hound felt like a straight buff for Fighters/Clerics, that 2% is so incredibly important after the Barbarian buff

[rugged eagle]

Man what is up with this server I can't say a * s but I can say shit and fuck

[latent tundra]

Just more flat armor in general too, just had to get a couple pieces with additional armor or pdr and you were sitting at like 75-80 base

[rugged eagle]

And it triggers the slowmode timer aswell it's killing my zoomer brain

[rugged eagle]

I was able to hit 50% with green plate and blue barbuta helm which was kinda crazy

[summer storm]

Nothing wrong with that

[hearty badge]

So one cool thing I found about Bard (out of the very few things 😂) was that if you are in a situation where you must tread through an unlit passage or corridor in which you know your opponent is camping, you can play the disarming tune to not only disable the gank, but to also alert their positioning as well. You would not believe how many Rogues can be shut down this way 😂

[rugged eagle]

But then you have to play bard so is it worth it?