suggestion-discussion

[sonic pendant]

i don't; i'm here for pvp. why would youwant a whole map that discourages it?

[cosmic cave]

They would have to code possibly 32+ more chests for no reason because nobody would ever use them

[mossy ruin]

Yes, but within reason, invisibility is a very magical thing. To be honest, every wizard atm easily can and should have invis on their bar. Rogue isn't THE STEALTH CLASS since you can actually just not use hide. And everyone does have potions. I will admit Rogue stealth and perks are very strong and if you want to minmax rogues effectiveness you are kinda pigeon-holed into pretty specific set up perks and skill wise but rogue can forgo stealth, they sneak around and look for opportunities that are advantageous.

[verbal marsh]

so I can have a house, set up a guard to protect my stash, and go raid someones base.

[sonic pendant]

sounds like you should play rust

[verbal marsh]

would be more like atlas.

[mossy ruin]

But if rogues are going to continue to be mostly melee, they should have strong stealth. But they could totally merge rogue and ranger

[sonic pendant]

and less like Dark and Darker. sorry, but i don't think anything like that belongs in this game

[cosmic cave]

Yeah i dont get why they dont just play the games they want to change this one into lmao

[verbal marsh]

the map would be like the tavern just largerwith a lot more players.

[verbal marsh]

players would start their matches by taking portals to start the dg.

[agile condor]

Could be something there I suppose?
-Chests have to persist
-Each player chooses their chest's location (For each map? Might be weird)
-Chests load in where the chest's owner is a member of that match
-It's essentially an in-game stash that others could loot
-Better hope you spawn near it and remember where it is lol
Idk.. maybe there's something there but I see this going 1 of 2 ways, really abused or never used.

[sonic pendant]

and you're introducing friendly pve guards, a lootable base, and a map that punishes playeers for pvp. that's just nothing like the spirit of this game

[glacial bridge]

so why are rogues a non stealth class but wizards are? i legitimately dont understand your reasoning

[verbal marsh]

you have no imagination but good for you :3

[jagged thunder]

have you ever played grim souls? its a mobile game...the way they set up pvp raiding was enjoyable

[verbal marsh]

never heard of it, not a fan of mobile games.

[sonic pendant]

that's just rude. i can imagine a game where you're on an island of adorable cats, but Hello Kitty Island Adventure doesn't belong in Dark and Darker.

there's some things that just don't belong in this game

[jagged thunder]

i played it years ago it was actually a decent game it was a hardcore survival

[verbal marsh]

like me reading your responses goodbye :3

[cosmic cave]

Lmao

[sonic pendant]

dude can't take even a little bit of negative feedback

[visual goblet]

Guys guys

[sonic pendant]

gg

[visual goblet]

Dont escalate

[glacial bridge]

?

[mossy ruin]

Im saying rogues aren't THE stealth class. Its just a common trope to be sneaky/stealthy as rogue. A Wizard is the magic class, and invisibility is very very much magical and super reasonable for them to insert it into the game as a defensive magic option. It would be that or some barrier spell like shield which im sure would be a different apples to oranges comparison with someone else. A rogue doesn't need stealth to be a rogue, and a wizard doesn't need invis to be a wizard. But for them to both have something that operates similarly and one to be better than the other doesn't invalidate the others use. Rogues have more than just stealth, but you keep fixating on them being the stealth class.

[visual goblet]

1: make suggestions 2: watch them get downvoted 3: don’t insult

[agile condor]

lol

[glacial bridge]

why arent clerics the invisibility class?

wizards have ignite weapon, does that make them the top tier melee class?

[mossy ruin]

I think you are attacking your own stance

[sonic pendant]

that was new to this playtest, ignite wasn't in the first one or second

[lucid root]

That's true, in most turn based rpgs the rogue just steals stuff that's about it

Pretty much every ff game

[mossy ruin]

Well rogues often have debuffs too, etc etc. or evasion and what not

[verbal marsh]

Most players who complain about rogues didn't take the time to get good with em :3 they just stabby stabby get one shot and say rogue bad.

[cosmic cave]

Nobody is complaining about rogues lmao

[lucid root]

Recommend some high level rogue gameplay vids?

[visual goblet]

[sonic pendant]

yolorage

[mossy ruin]

mee bot actually deleting a message an im pretty sure it didnt have a swear but im not retyping it but just know "insert good response here"

[lucid root]

Profanity filter is weird

[glacial bridge]

you said wizards invisibility should dog on rogues stealth because Wizards are a magical class. Thats why I was trying to prod at that reasoning

this convo is going nowhere. we can call it quits

[cosmic cave]

Their invis serve different purposes guys.. come on..

[mossy ruin]

I get what ur saying, but I think the issue lies with rogues having nothing better

[cosmic cave]

Wizards invis is to outmaneuver and juke, rogues is to set up ambushes

[mossy ruin]

I think our rogue needs a short cooldown side dash, but this only has use if they introduce something like a reduction to cursor control during swings or max cleave distance.

Because you can spin in a circle and hit everything, so dashing adjacent serves no purpose atm.

[glacial bridge]

i would love rogue dashes

[lucid root]

Does rogue need to be the stealth 1v1 king?

[glacial bridge]

Acrobat Rogue archetypes are awesome

quarterstaff and backflips

[mossy ruin]

But stealth is badass and I hope wizards invis becomes 1 cast or 2 cast per meditate

wizard just shouldnt be able to spam that shit

[lucid root]

Give rogue wall running

[mossy ruin]

But the spell should BE better than stealth

[lusty wren]

wiz invis is no big deal without haste stacking

[verbal marsh]

I would be okay with rogue getting a new skill called 'evasive maneuver' that allows .5 seconds of noclipping enemy attacks.

[cosmic cave]

Invis isnt even the issue you can literally hear their footsteps

[mossy ruin]

Nah honestly, like why does rogue have like a 30second cooldown(semantics if its less) but wizard can cast like 5 times before resting for a few

[lucid root]

A dash with i-frames?

[lusty wren]

This would be so op

[mossy ruin]

could have i frames but with the way it works with swings atm if its a long swing you could just reflick to them

[cosmic cave]

If anything is an issue its haste,, but like ive said before wizards are not an issue because they have MOST OF THEIR KIT WITH SPELLS. Other classes will get more tools when skill trees etc come out. Its just like cleric having more just because they have spells

[glacial bridge]

nah, this game is more Kingsfield than Darksouls, i think just movement is appropriate

[verbal marsh]

indeed

[next wing]

with speed boost and stacks with haste lol

[mossy ruin]

Buuuut the game could just accept the hit and make it 0 instead

[mossy ruin]

yeah and why that

[lucid root]

Thinking like a programmer blood

[next wing]

theres a certain point where a sneaky evasive spell turns you into a fighter jet blasting fireballs at a squad and then flying away

[verbal marsh]

would have to be a 1 use skill lol

[mossy ruin]

😊 oh me, me thinking.. you think I think 😊

[lucid root]

Don't make it weird 👀

[cosmic cave]

I wish the people complaining about wizard actually played wizard lmaoo

[verbal marsh]

wizards dont complain about wizards :3 it was the highest learning curve class in game.

[cosmic cave]

The same people who would be caught in killfeed fireballing themselves

[mossy ruin]

I played enough wizard, still needs adjusted, the way stuff interacted with +bonus damage and shit was very silly

[lucid root]

I mean sometimes a suicide fireball is necessary

[glacial bridge]

some people only play Barbarian, they run straight down the hallway and think the game should be balanced accordingly. we still love them

[sonic pendant]

it's the squishiest class in the game and it's so easy to die, and it's the most difficult class to make skill plays with, but people watch some top 10 player content or got squad wiped once by a wiz and freak out

[cosmic cave]

Yeah ignite was bugged for the first but

[mossy ruin]

I want a QoL self cast key like most MMOs have so we dont have to flick cast, id rather hold ALT while casting for myself.

[verbal marsh]

oh all wizards are aware spells need balancing, but spells are suppose to be powerful in first place so its shrug

[mossy ruin]

actually im a genius

[cosmic cave]

Its literally the fact that they HAVE spells

[jagged thunder]

the gear or level is suppose to scale you, grey wiz can drop down and get filthy

[lucid root]

quote from a streamer responding to a viewer "is wizard op? yeah, if you're good like me"

[cosmic cave]

Once skill trees come out and they add/rework skills wizard will be fine even without tuning

[verbal marsh]

playing in grey is hard to get use to when you're use to having green suit or better.

rooms clear so much faster with a lil bit o' will

[cosmic cave]

Thats the one thing i think they need to look at if anything, being able to run 1 knowledge gloves/legs and getting your full kit is pretty strong

[glacial bridge]

learning tactics while in grey will help you a lot more when you do get that gear though. you figure out positioning against enemy matchups

[jagged thunder]

33 will

[verbal marsh]

oh every class learns in greys, its no different for wizard : P

people just get mad cause wizard is range while learning their ways. its like getting shot by a longbow.

[jagged thunder]

thats higher than the barbs 30 strength

[cosmic cave]

There were times last playtest where i was giving up inventory space just to fit white items with 1 knowledge lmfao

[sonic pendant]

that was a nerf already... prior playtest you just got 5 spells, period. there were ONLY 5, but you got them all. you can't even afford the original 5 without knowledge gear now

[cosmic cave]

For rat runs ofc

[verbal marsh]

I stopped saving grey suits and lost all my gear and regretted not keeping my grey suits lol

just 5 will and a little magic power makes a huge diff.

rather think its 3 will you get, and 3-4 magic power off book

[jagged thunder]

each class has a specific playstyle wiz is just cracked and then ranger

[cosmic cave]

Yeah i remember that, although i didnt get much playtime second playtest because i had just discovered it

[lucid root]

Wizard is going to be completely neutered next test just wait

[verbal marsh]

using crystal ball and spellbook were key, a lot of wiz didn't realize those were only way to raise initial magic power also.

staff crystal sword not good for that

[cosmic cave]

Spellbook is insane

I could not go back to anything but a spellbook after spellbook casting

Crystal sword was okay for pveing mobs

Staff was good for breaking boxes

[verbal marsh]

i kept my staff for breaking vases in one shot

[mossy ruin]

Idk I think wizard will always be the class that has the most overhauled mechanics. Its never a small tweak thing, its going to be fundamental changes every time is how I perceive it being adjusted. mainly because setting up your wizard is like making a build, ofc theres a meta of what spells you run, but if they adjust numbers one way or another so many things could change just by making more spells require stationary casting or long cast time, etc etc.

[verbal marsh]

also barrels in 2 hits is nice

staff was actually kinda op for breaking stuff

[mossy ruin]

Imagine if wizard had an ice nova root or something, then back up and fireball(longer cast time than normal) but you have to smack the ice to break out, etc etc, like changes to the class would be very all encompassing imo.

[glacial bridge]

arrows were disgusting for breaking stuff. it felt so weird cuz most games its the reverse

[cosmic cave]

Yeah 1hitting crates with a magic stick was funny

[mossy ruin]

Omg I loved that, I hope they keep the way it feels, it feels magical to just tap it.

[cosmic cave]

Dude i swear to god people slept on icebolt

[lucid root]

?

[cosmic cave]

Sure it didnt do alot of dmg but the slow in it was insane for a 2cost spell

[verbal marsh]

didnt feel any need for ice bolt, mainly ran lightning strike, fireball, mm, zap, haste

[cosmic cave]

Plus it still did enough dmg to oneshot flying mobs in normal

[verbal marsh]

would run invis if we didnt have range on team

[cosmic cave]

In groups icebolt was a blessing for not blasting my mates, but i also would probably prefer running ignite lol

I usually did mm/fireball/haste/invis with ignite/icebolt/chainlight depending on my knowledge

[verbal marsh]

I liked lightning strike cause I made sure everyone knew there was a wizard

[cosmic cave]

I wanted to play with that skill so bad cuz i can only imagine the dmg it does but i couldnt with the 4s detonate time

[lucid root]

Why did barrels have the best shit for some reason

[verbal marsh]

roughly same dmg as zap.

[cosmic cave]

Although thinking of it now, you could just cast it on yourself if youre being zerged

[verbal marsh]

but you can cast it on ground an aim less also aoe.

[mossy ruin]

youve clearly never broken into barrels in real life

[cosmic cave]

Fr tho i heard crates were dropping purple gear like, ima be breaking all those next time lol

[verbal marsh]

I usually got best lewt out of barrels near my spawn

[mossy ruin]

yeah, shoes and helmets and gloves oh my

[verbal marsh]

I started loving that rush spot cause I'd just fireball the hole thing down in seconds.

[sonic pendant]

that's what people said about rangers, and we got a quiver that auto reloads if you're a ranger and use either of your two perks lol

[cosmic cave]

My friend gets hella mad at me if i break crates tho cuz he has the ranger hearing perk lol

[verbal marsh]

free lewt enough to exit on first blue portal found lol

[cosmic cave]

Dude spawning in the library or the tomb room

[lucid root]

I need a stat like + to object destruction, then stack it on my staff, run book/staff, go around one tapping barrels

[cosmic cave]

Omgggg

Dude i tried to fireball like 5barrels and you can imagine my sadness when only one broke lmfao

[verbal marsh]

weapon dmg effects it, best object destroyer aside from barbarian is war maul.

[mossy ruin]

it does damage them though, try two and they all break

[lucid root]

Oh really? I thought it was just based on weapon type, blunt being the best?

[cosmic cave]

In pretty sure i malded and threw atleast 2 more lmao

[verbal marsh]

war maul has natural +1 on impact dmg

[mossy ruin]

i did that tooo, i think it worked for me, unlucky for you lol

[verbal marsh]

and higher dmg

so its equiv to being a barbarian

[lucid root]

Seems like any old hammer or maul should be the barrel one tapperz

[mossy ruin]

Does warmaul + smash do anything extra to shields?

I used warmaul for like 4 hours+ before I realized it was kinda dogwater slow and atrocious, but it was so WHOMPY and cool

[verbal marsh]

war maul can ignore shield if you know how wing from below

[mossy ruin]

yeah, but i mean mechanically

[verbal marsh]

idk if blocking war maul triggers that block animation or not

[mossy ruin]

Off screen animation start aiming, annoying

[verbal marsh]

think if you block it correctly it does, else it will dmg you for %

if you dont block perfectly

[lusty wren]

why would you ever block a war maul? Just move its soooo slow

[exotic nest]

how can i do the play test guys i wanna download the game

[cosmic cave]

Warmaul is sooooo slow but i got one good headshot and mans folded lmfaooo

[lucid root]

One month

[verbal marsh]

lol I can hit you twice in one swing if you let me.

[mossy ruin]

yes baby

[verbal marsh]

I was good at keeping the tip of my warmaul in your face for a never ending swing

[exotic nest]

u mean after 1 month

[lucid root]

Yeah

[exotic nest]

its gonna be limited numbers or ?

[lucid root]

Same thing

[mossy ruin]

February we all get to playtest

[exotic nest]

ok good

[cosmic cave]

Likewise i remember coming across a warmaul barb and thinking he was gonna headshot me, so i crouched even though i saw the warmaul coming straight for my face and caught it to the dome lol

[mossy ruin]

SAME

[cosmic cave]

It was like in literal slow motion i got to watch as it collided into my forehead

[mossy ruin]

I decided then that if im healthy, i jump limb tank

[cosmic cave]

LMAOOO

YEPPP

[verbal marsh]

did the same thing against a longsword D:

[mossy ruin]

In barb 1v1s i tried crouching a few, i always insta regretted

[cosmic cave]

You quickly learn they aint aiming at anything in particular, they just aiming

[mossy ruin]

Deadass

[cosmic cave]

Its good that theyre getting into character atleast LMAO

[verbal marsh]

lol

[cosmic cave]

It comes with being a barb and smashing everything in your path

[verbal marsh]

I never felt bad for blasting a barb.

Too often did they intentionall walk directly into me as I cast fireball D:

[cosmic cave]

I swear their shouting gives me ptsd

When i hear it i know im turning around into a 3 man

[verbal marsh]

if a barb walks directly infront of yu while you're charging your 2nd fireball, switch to mm and tear his rear to shreds.

and scream " The Power" while you do it

better yet use chain lightning xD

Someone told me about that tactic, but I never thought to just be evil.

[lucid root]

I love hearing the barb shout

Feel like I'm dead already

[cosmic cave]

Anyone i came into contact with got met with a fireball into mm channel so they ran away or died lol

[verbal marsh]

Oh I never had problems with enemies eating it, was always the barbarian who wanted to steal my kill : |

[mossy ruin]

I ate wizards

as a barb rogue main, but i play lame

[verbal marsh]

Barbarians always so demanding, haste me, invis me, then he goes and runs infront of your 2nd fireball and murks you when you had it under control : |

[strange sable]

Same with fighters lol

They need to become self reliant

[verbal marsh]

for sure, i stopped hasting teamates lol

I figured if I dont make them fast they cant murk me : |

[lucid root]

Payback for barbs always being the buffers in d2, BO BO BO

[verbal marsh]

fighters were indeed the other issue darn their sprint.

but at least when they asked for haste they used it properly

hated hasting people to watch them whiff swings lol

or swing during the invis and swing again to cancel it : |

gave you invis so you wouldnt miss the swing goes and wiffs and
immedietly lol

[mossy ruin]

yeah wtf, zdps lame

[native cargo]

What’re your guys thoughts about having a perk for clerics to be able to cast there spells with a mourning star/flang mace? Sounds meh but it’s just a thought

[sacred hill]

@still flower NA gonna get rekt 😆

[still flower]

yeah i hope devevolopers do something

it really sucks when you are low rank in a game and trying to climb and then in the enemy team there is a EU player. its almost like smurfing

[sacred hill]

that makes no sense, it could be a NA player also

[still flower]

if it was a NA smurf, then the smurf detection systems could catch him

[sacred hill]

thats mmr

I think they are not adding such systems

[still flower]

normal EU players plays at the skills of the top NA players, it will always be an issue

[sacred hill]

😆 im not that good yet chill

[still flower]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2904322669

here is 1 source

here is another

oh

https://www.esports.com/en/league-of-legends-why-eu-is-better-than-na-102788

[sacred hill]

Basically europeans are smarter

[still flower]

no its because of culture. europeans watch more anime so theyre more inclined to want to become a super saiyan

[sacred hill]

Makes sense

[glacial bridge]

i wouldnt say that Europeans are smarter, NA is just dumb 😂

[worthy merlin]

Europe has a lot more people than America so its bound to be more competitive but DnD has no mmr so it doesnt matter

@sudden fractal stop trolling the suggestion board please

[sudden fractal]

seeing ppls crazy suggestions always makes my day

[glacial bridge]

skrillex sounds reasonable to me

[sudden fractal]

its deep u wouldnt get it

[sudden fractal]

high five bro

@lucid root u mf how could u

[lucid root]

Should've said deadmau5

[sudden fractal]

but skrillex funny

[lucid root]

Did you delete or a mod?

[sudden fractal]

i think a mod did

wish they added skrillex :(

its nice that they can take a joke and not punish for smthn like that

love u mods <3

[glacial bridge]

i wish you were banned forever. how dare you

[sudden fractal]

[next wing]

first and last time i ever used warmaul i took out my 2 other teammates in one swing

[glacial bridge]

did you at least gaslight them that it was their fault?

[next wing]

I don't thin kit would've worked since they brought all their good loot too lol

[lucid root]

Listen to the intrusive thoughts, fireball the teammates

[glacial bridge]

ngl i had my share of solo games in grey gear just running into 3-stacks spamming fireballs at my feet until i died

[lucid root]

Oh plenty

Kamikaze fireball right in the middle of them

[verbal marsh]

War Hammer only works in the hands of Thor.

You weak mortals cannot handle the power.

[lusty wren]

That braeden guy tryin to steal my suggestion 😄

[pure summit]

My bad 🙃

[next wing]

I'm pretty sure they want to eventually but next playtest is in like a month so I dont think thats coming lol

[lucid root]

The final floor is you get to choose if you want to become a floor boss 👀 ||sorry I just finished Alice in Borderland||

[agile condor]

Why are there so many people in the discord atm?

[lucid root]

Are there?

[agile condor]

Like 25 people idk lol

[lucid root]

The dragon should be a smaller sized dragon, but still wreck your shit

Big dragon would be awkward in the boss room default dimensions

Unless they made one really big room

Maybe a drake instead of a dragon

Do we have any gods established in the game yet?

Lore-wise, not physically

I was thinking about the shrines if they represent a specific God or something

[pure summit]

Yeah, I was thinking a small dragon, with the possibility of adding a Dragon King as end-game content later on

[lucid root]

Drake with poison claws that spits acid 🤔

Any form of karma system at all?

I was thinking of like a 'pay it forward' karma mechanic somehow involving shrines, like sacrifice a health pot to the healing shrine

Reach a threshold and reduces cost of potions and bandages at the shops or something

If gold were ever an issue to obtain that is, currently it flows like water

[lucid root]

...no? Alright next bad idea

[opal sparrow]

Or maybe something that can crawl on the walls cuz the game as of now looks more like a catacombs, a Spider queen looks more fitting because there are already small spider mobs

[agile condor]

#d-and-d-suggestions message dude tryin' to start a fight

[gaunt scaffold]

hey i got a dumb question for the suggestions, what does the thinking emoji mean/what are you guys using it for?

[opal sparrow]

Using it as undecided

[white cliff]

Unsure, confused about the suggestion needs elaboration.

Or thinking, or undecided.

[ebon delta]

For many things actually. In my case it could be "i like the general idea but it is unpolished/expressed in a way that i don't like" or "i can't tell if it is a bad suggestion or a good one" or "i don't understand this suggestion". Example for the last one - #d-and-d-suggestions message
I have no idea what is "a spell reminiscent of Wrath of God from dark souls", how it looks like and what it does.

[white cliff]

Depends.

[upbeat pewter]

Its crazy how many people think that players killing AI where they cant retaliate is a problem. All the ones that matter can hit and the others are extremely easy to dodge, to the point where setting that up is a detriment anyways.

[tender magnet]

just catchin up now, but uh
this one #d-and-d-suggestions message

wtf? lmao, "switch ranger's starting weapon to rapier" Idk what part of ranger he doesn't get

[upbeat pewter]

ranger in DnD isnt 'the' ranged class. i feel like ranger starting with a melee weapon instead is a pretty good idea, honestly. add bows as standard to fighter, add an ability, and allow both to be 'archers' but do it differently.

they mostly 'are' played as a ranged class in DnD, mind. but they arnt better at it than fighter, and i like that. they are just as viable melee (which isnt particularly good, rangers are bad in DnD), and imo, thats ideal.

that suggestion was a little extreme though

[tender magnet]

Idk, we should have a class that starts with ranged, and I disagree that fighter should start with a bow.
the ranger being bow oriented makes sense as a name to those who don't play and understood by those who do play rpgs.
if classes get multiple base kit weapons, sure I could see the fighter getting a survival bow, but otherwise, fighters are primarily melee

[upbeat pewter]

i dont think fighter should start with a bow, just be standard to their kit.

[tender magnet]

how so?

[upbeat pewter]

by that, i mean that they can use one without a perk

[tender magnet]

Oh that they can equ-

yeah

Agreed

Yeah, they really should

[upbeat pewter]

i feel like its something that talents would help a lot with.

so both can be build melee or ranged.

i do think rogue should be included in that as well

but only with deep talent investment

[tender magnet]

Yeah the talent system would be great for that

[upbeat pewter]

yeah. hopefully they take that direction.

from DnD;
fighter = best standard archer, no tricks, just kill.
ranger = archer with spells. most tricks to take advantage of. by far the most utility
rogue = most burst, but needs to be intelligent to make use of it.

[agile condor]

Borg farmin Ls RIP - #d-and-d-suggestions message 😄

[tender magnet]

Sad, it's a fun suggestion

[upbeat pewter]

idk, i prefer standard locations

it means people fight over them more

you can get lucky already finding loot from mobs/chest

[tender magnet]

Maybe, it does have that fun isaac donation box type feel, and is kinda arcadey with diff locations

[upbeat pewter]

i feel like its just something people would want to use to save loot mid-run

[tender magnet]

Might be

I'd stuff it with bandages

[upbeat pewter]

with the circle, not sure how it would really be used, actually.

theres not enough freedom to explore and use the map currently

[tender magnet]

perhaps limit it to some middle adjacent tiles

Then it's almost standardized location, but with a little wiggle for fun

[opal sparrow]

For ranger by spells you mean druidic I dont think they are on par with wizards/mages

[tender magnet]

Rangers have magic, they're half casters, yeah

would love to see some spell like abilities for ranger, much more interesting than -3 rapid fire- -5 burst-

[upbeat pewter]

rangers are half casters. they are weak spellcasters, but have some unique powerful spells. its not the same as wizards or whatever, just different

[tender magnet]

yeah like entangle 👀

[upbeat pewter]

pass without trace was a good example, but too strong for this game

and by half caster, they have a much lower limit, and usually have spells at a maximum level of around half of that of a full caster

[tender magnet]

@strange sable why do you disagree with a spellcasting button?
I feel there are better ways to limit skills for casters other than forcing them to take a skill to cast spells, when it should just be innate because it's the class

[strange sable]

Spell casters are already top tier and that is a buff

[tender magnet]

Sure, but think of the alternatives

[strange sable]

Why does the wizard need abilities when it could just be a spell?

[hollow sentinel]

Every wizard now has the instant cast button

[tender magnet]

Make the skills like 60% the power of what they currently offer, and give casters the choice of skills

[hollow sentinel]

Awful suggestion Jax come on

[strange sable]

@steady cloud Want to share your opinion instead of just reacting?

[tender magnet]

What do you mean?

[strange sable]

Is desolent muted?

[strange sable]

What does that even mean...

[tender magnet]

If we make a bind for spellcasting separate of the skill, we can go about making the skills, even the instant cast skill slightly worse, to help give room for two skills

[strange sable]

Skills as in meditate and spell memory?

[tender magnet]

Yeah, meditate is honestly fine, but stuff like the instant spell cast, because you shouldn't normally have room for an instant cast and meditate, the instant cast is now "the casting time for your next spell is 40% faster"
or so

[strange sable]

@steady cloud Why are you thumbs downing me but you also downvoted the suggestion?

[tender magnet]

lol

[strange sable]

You can't really nerf spell memory or meditate, and nerfing intense focus makes no sense because it is already trash compared to the other two skills.

Look at the data from playtest 2

[tender magnet]

Okay okay, I didn't play much wizard, but the suggestion applies to all casters, so I'm trying to make sense

[strange sable]

less than 5% of people use intense focus

[lucid root]

Intense focus is trash you say?

[strange sable]

Compared to meditate and spell memory, yes

[hollow sentinel]

depends on how you look at it

intense focus is absolutely not trash for whoever you encounter (and evaporate) first

it's pretty trash after you've blown your load though

[strange sable]

Trash unless you have 50 camp fires

[hollow sentinel]

if you're solo it's trash, with a team it's gucci

[tender magnet]

I believe the advantages of the suggestion of separating spells from being a skill, i.e. removing spell memory and making it base kit for casters (maybe keep spell memory 2 if you want more slots though)
would be in letting the ranger get spells, since they are half casters, and freeing player choice for wizards and clerics

[lucid root]

50 campfires?!

That's a lot of camping

[strange sable]

What kind of skills are you thinking about

Why can't it be bunched in with the spells

[tender magnet]

To accommodate that, though I may have chosen a bad example, would be to reduce the effects of other skills, since it's currently balanced around one of the skills on a caster to be spell memory

[tender magnet]

I'm not sure we're on the same page

[strange sable]

You are saying spell memory should be in the base kit so wizard can choose another skill no?

[tender magnet]

Yes, so casters, the wizard included, can choose two skills to play with.
and spells be base kit, selected with a new key bind

[strange sable]

Intense focus + mediate + spell memory is OP

Wizard is already considered #1 by most

[tender magnet]

Yes, but

[upbeat pewter]

as i stated in my post, they would need to be rebalanced so that it WOULDNT be a straight up buff.

[tender magnet]

Per this comment, since casters would have two skills, they should balance them around having two skills

[tender magnet]

Yes

[upbeat pewter]

they should be about the same. someone downvoting for that reason needs to read more.

[strange sable]

Still dislike it, that would mean meditate gets a nerf

[upbeat pewter]

why would it get a nerf?

[strange sable]

To balance

[tender magnet]

sure but it probably wouldn't be a huge nerf, meditate feels good in it's state

[upbeat pewter]

they could change literally anything with the class.

and not meditate.

[strange sable]

You are buffing the wizard by giving him intense focus for no extra cost so ynow you need to remove something, mediate is the only thing to nerf

[upbeat pewter]

how is meditate the only thing to nerf?

[strange sable]

Exactly, doesn't make sense to nerf meditate

[strange sable]

The wizard has 3 skills

[tender magnet]

we don't have to have every solution,

[upbeat pewter]

why would it need to be a skill?

they could literally take out some power of the class, and add a skill that compensates.

[strange sable]

I don't really see the point is rebalancing the whole wizard buiild for this

[upbeat pewter]

power, like damage.

[tender magnet]

I'm not thinking of wizard solely, I think this suggestion benefits every caster, especially ranger, who's class is given spells in Dungeons and Dragons, but as a half caster

[tender magnet]

.^

[upbeat pewter]

changing for QoL is worth it. and yeah, im thinking of every caster. it feels so bad to only get 1 ability.

[lucid root]

Nerf to meditate: when you meditate you fall asleep and snore very loud

[strange sable]

Would be pretty funny actually 😆

[tender magnet]

Also player choice, letting people choose two skills feels really nice compared to being stuck taking spell memory if you're a caster

the feel of a class in play and on paper matter

[ebon delta]

So, if I understand you correctly, you think it would be better if instead of spell memory replacing one of the ranger's abilities, they got a triple shot + ration / shotgun + bear traps + campfire + spells? That sounds like an unreasonably strong kit for a class that is already kinda strong without any spells. Or does that mean that rangers also will need to be nerfed rebalanced for that?

[hollow sentinel]

rangers should have to wear hi-vis hunting jackets to balance that

[tender magnet]

Not sure, honestly wasn't thinking about how it played into rangers, rangers probably deserve the spell memory as a skill more than cleric or wizard though

[ebon delta]

I like this kind of suggestion, but before that both wizards and clerics need more abilities, because nothing much will change if you make their spell memory innate right now - both classes only have 3 abilities to choose from (including spell memory)

[tender magnet]

Oh for sure, but it's a suggestion, it's somethin we give to the devs to chew on, not for our instant gratification

[pure summit]

What do you guys think about this crafting system?

https://discordapp.com/channels/988365908009447485/1048759403819577486/1061910204834385922

[ancient briar]

I'm not a fan of crafting. I always thought it's a feature that came at a huge development cost.

[ebon delta]

Let's say I want to make an item of epic quality. To do this, I need to first go to the dungeon, collect the necessary materials and go out with them. I may not find the materials, I may find the wrong materials, or I may not even exit the dungeon, so it may take more than one run. After that, I need to buy a tool, load myself with the necessary materials and go to the second floor of the dungeon. On the road, I can die, losing all my progress. When I get there, I can die from the guards, losing all my progress. Having gone down to the second floor, I may not find a place for crafting or be unable to use it due to swarm or other players.
Or I can just find an epic item in a random barrel not risking anything or spending too much of my time
In my opinion, with such a system, crafting is too time consuming and too risky to do. Not worth it

[tender magnet]

I didn't want to read wall text, glad you gave a comprehensive answer

[upbeat pewter]

well, from what i said in my post, id hope the balance remains the same

if its going to make casters brokenly strong, and nothing is done to change that (keep in mind literally everything is going to be balanced to a large degree LATER), thats bad.
imo, thinking that the change is intended to make them strong is stupid.

we'll get more caster releases, and i hope that they (and the current two) have more ability customization other than the single slot.

[ebon delta]

But a single ability slot isn't the limiting factor. The current state of the game simply lacks customisation options for casters... Or, actually, maybe for all classes. I don't disagree with your initial post, i just don't think that spell memory taking an ability slot is an actual problem right now. Maybe later it will be

[tender magnet]

Hey it's all about player enjoyment in the end, while yes, it may not be a big problem as @ebon delta says, but I'm sure it would be more interesting to have more options to pick from

[upbeat pewter]

yeah, basically. you may not see it as a problem, but that mostly shows you dont play the class.
the only real variation in wizards atm is which spells they chose, while all take identical abilities. that is absolutely a problem.

[tender magnet]

Yeah true that

[upbeat pewter]

spells are like weapon choice for other classes. spellcaster's actual weapon is basically just cast speed/damage balance.
so its like an ability slot for casters atm is effectively allowing the use of weapons. feels bad

[ebon delta]

Well then they need more abilities to choose from? Giving them another slot for abilities won't change anything in that regard and that is exactly what i am trying to say

There is not enough abilities to choose from

[upbeat pewter]

the problem is that no ability is EVER going to be better than spells. its not really an ability choice, its a class feature. at that point, it shouldnt be taking up a slot

and yeah, more abilities would be nice as well, but the effectiveness of said abilities doesnt matter much atm i think

[tender magnet]

Aren't we all right? It needs more choices, so spells can be base kit

[upbeat pewter]

they could be bad, but at least you'd need something

yeah

id argue that cleric benefits way more from casting being baseline anyways. their skills are straight up broken

instaclearing rooms is amazing

[tender magnet]

It is pretty good

Didn't use the ability much when I played cleric for a day, mostly used the targeted dmg+slow

[upbeat pewter]

what i like about the instaclear is that it readies you for anything.

[tender magnet]

Couldn't one shot so I was never super impressed, and figured pvp skill was more fun

[upbeat pewter]

someone nearby while you're fighting AI? pop, ready to fight them

[tender magnet]

yeah I see the benefit

Especially against problematic ai

[upbeat pewter]

which ones? i didnt really find any of them bad

[tender magnet]

Well archers are problematic to ignore if you are trying to fight around them

[upbeat pewter]

true. you can duck their arrows though

[tender magnet]

Yeah, I'm just saying it's easier to have a clear sighted fight without archers around, meaning the aoe skill is good

[upbeat pewter]

i dont disagree.

[jagged cedar]

oil bottles would be cool that could be used in alchemy or somethin but also used to do additional fire dmg

[tawny lagoon]

Make it so that you can obtain crafting materials for certain modifiers so you can choose what you want. Also, if it is too risky for the trouble, increase the materials obtained

[soft relic]

Honestly, to keep crafting from being broken, they can't let you choose the attributes it will roll with. If they did, it would have to be so insanely hard to get that most players could not obtain it.

If it's random, it still can't be easy without major changes to the loot system in general, because it could break the game's current system/economy.

[ebon delta]

The game already has craft, but most players have not even touched it. All you had to do is buy a pickaxe for 25 gold, find ruby-silver ore, mine it, exit the dungeon, repeat until you have enough RSO to craft, and then craft. The ore always spawns in the same places on the first (second) floor, so there are virtually no risks in the gathering process, you only need a small investment in pickaxes and knowing where to mine the ore. The ore that you collected and carried out remains in your stash and you cannot lose it. There are no risks at all in the crafting process and the items you get are on par with the legendary ones. But even this kind of crafting was not done by most people. The crafting process, as it described in suggestion, requires even more time, knowledge and gold costs to cover the risks even if you want to make an epic items. It may sound interesting, but realistically speaking, almost no one will waste their time on this

[next snow]

Which one of you snippersnappers pinged me?!

[dusk harbor]

me

[next snow]

How dare you.

[tawny lagoon]

Exactly, no one did it because it was not worth. That is why I think the material cost should be reduced or the output should be better, allowing you to choose some modifiers or getting more than regular armor.

[west cloak]

I don't like comparing dnd to other games because different games don't fit the same vibes-- but I think you just need a pretty basic crafting system that gets more intensive in the later teirs like going to specific locations to craft legendary gear would be cool asf

But just basic crafting early turning metal scrap into lockpicks or something-- maybe a bit more expensive so we don't make rogue more useless

[visual goblet]

I think the crafting didn’t have that much success because it was A LOT of ressources for one item, I think they are gonna reduce the minerals welded per craft tho

[ebon delta]

I feel like I'm missing something, but what does that have to do with the original suggestion I was commenting on? https://discordapp.com/channels/988365908009447485/1048759403819577486/1061910204834385922

[west cloak]

I also think players don't tend to engage when there isn't a lot of crafting to get into-- when it's only a couple items you can get from it. it's easy to gloss over

I think a lot of people didn't want to deal with it in the limited time the playtest was running?

[upbeat pewter]

i think the biggest part was that people that were successful enough to run a bunch of raids, and collect the stuff and escape with it are also the people that have killed and extracted gear from others, which would vastly outweigh the benefit of mining.

so the people that can do it, dont need to.

its just the first introduction though, it will obviously be expanded upon

[brisk oxide]

@sacred hill What if the dwarves have the same hitbox as normal humans...

That way you can stab the air above their heads for free headshots. 😂

[opal sparrow]

Or have the dwarves ride a raptor so theyll have the same height as humans lol

[sacred hill]

or they have reduced armor, but stilll, good luck with the rogue dwarf xd

[brisk oxide]

I like it. Maybe you can also pay 15$ to have the Raptor also bite other players as an AI @steady cloud

[sacred hill]

his mom credit card aint infinite

[brisk oxide]

lolololool

[west cloak]

Agreed it also meant 3 less bear traps

[opal sparrow]

Be careful @odd reef might tell you that you are a typical rogue main

[brisk oxide]

Real talk. I thought about it and made a suggestion that people didn't like.
So I'd like to know what people's issues are with the idea of a Bolas as a consumable throwing weapon?

[brisk oxide]

Technically I played as much ranger and fighter as rogue. Sadly can't select multiple roles.

[sacred hill]

everyone becomes a healer, broken

[opal sparrow]

I think ebolas as a throwing weapon is realistic enough, I like it

[brisk oxide]

How so? Throwing Knives and Arrows already slow on impact?

Having a .25 bind, literally doesn't change anything

[sacred hill]

i thought you mean trowing heals potions xD

[brisk oxide]

Bolas

Balls on ropes

Standard hunting weapon

for rabbits and what not

[sacred hill]

it can happen but should be expensive item, so people dont spam it

[brisk oxide]

I can understand people concerned with the idea of binds, cause any hard CC in this game would be extra busted. Traps are already insanely good. But if the Bind is as long as, or shorter than, the cooldown to switch weapons/slots, then it really doesn't harm or break anything. Adding a little depth to being able to weave in and out of combat for solos.

[steady cloud]

Huh ?

[tawny lagoon]

No I was just commenting on how crafting could be overhauled, my bad if I did not clarify

[ebon delta]

oh, okay, no worries

[gray vessel]

suggest: floor 4 that is just pure black. SO dark taht yuo can onyl find your way through by bumping into walls. Even sources of light are nerfed 80% as the darkness consumes your light. You need a dozen tourches to light up even a single room

[wary flower]

That's actually interesting and terrifying o_O

[gray vessel]

All the enemies could have glowing red/white eyes and that's the only way you can see them

[wary flower]

walking into a new room and see dozens of glowing red eyes turning to look at you.... gotta need a clean pair of pants after that

[tawny lagoon]

Finally a use for light spell

[mossy ruin]

why would he pay for that? He wants classes and features clearly not dwarf on raptor bites.

[mossy ruin]

I kinda get what ur saying, but things do work atm. It does suck that you cant really disengage from a fight but that means the skills you need are threat assessment, spacing, and patience.

I played barb solo and rogue solo, a lot, a lot. And its silly, but barbarian has to run from many fights until its advantageous, sometimes never. Rogue though, he can harrass like a little mosquito and pick of one by one. Just how it is at the moment.

[distant night]

i think spell memory shouldnt be a skill and instead a seperate keybind
kinda boring only having 1 active, and for wiz its just meditate

🤔

[lucid root]

The playtest data 🤤

[hushed plover]

I'm really surprised that wizard (12%) and ranger (20%) only made up 1/3 of all character classes made and played during the playtest seeing how overtuned they turned out to be. I regret not playing these two more ever since the test closed

[polar orbit]

i read the suggestions made and cannot figure out if some are serious

[opaque slate]

where can we see this data

[proper moth]

which ones and hi guys

[polar orbit]

the guy whos always sayig make us pay alot of money for something nobody wants

[lucid root]

I was pretty sure cleric was least played, very surprised wizard was a close second

[proper moth]

i would only assume if someone keeps saying it is either living a lie or is going for something that will never happen or just trolling

as my mother would always say and alot of people "ask once and if people see it dont keep asking"

[polar orbit]

they're funny

[opaque slate]

yo borg where can we see this data bro

[proper moth]

it should be in development

[lucid root]

Under dark and darker tab

More rogues and rangers which lines up with my experience

[opaque slate]

i see, thanks bb

[lucid root]

Most popular in usa, not surprising. Needs more gacha to succeed over seas

[visual goblet]

Where is it??

Ty

[lucid root]

#development message

[sacred hill]

i will suggest sometghing similarf

[lucid root]

I wonder if they consult an economist once they gather a bunch of data on trade 👀

[sacred hill]

they should, there is actual gold inflation that they need to keep on track

they need a proper item and gold sink

[lucid root]

I know blizzard has an economist on staff full time

[steady cloud]

@sacred hill i dont liked ur suggestion

[lucid root]

I like the total darkness, I think some of the zombies have glowing green spots already?

[visual goblet]

There’s always inflation in games of loot collecting, d2 had runes, kinda helped having a rarer form of currency, a little bit like candy canes but could be thought out a lil more

But yea the more people extract with gold, the less gold is worth in trades

[lucid root]

Floor 4 turns into a horror game

Server wipes also give them so much leeway in correcting stuff

Market stuff

If there ever is a permanent server it'll be like "bye bye value of anything ever"

[visual goblet]

Yep, was a quick inflation for 2 weeks tho

Finding loot is fun but if too ez nothing is worth anything g

Not sure if mining and candy canes are enough to stop gold inflation

[lucid root]

Stash size alone would be enough to stop hoarding but there will be mules and alts all that

[long dawn]

They said they made getting gold easy for the playtest. Trinkets probably wont be worth more than 5 gold for an epic

Pair that with 4 possible wipes a year and you might see some gold suppression

[lucid root]

They're going to have to tune drop rates and sell values to make progression during the 3 month season satisfying for the average player but not quite enough time for the elite players to feel burned out from having everything

[long dawn]

Most definitely. I feel they can balance it well it will probably take a while before it's just right

[lucid root]

Something that was only possible with bot teams in d2 classic, getting near perfect gear

[sacred hill]

whats the point of grinding for a perfect gear if you lose it in 1 death

[lucid root]

Point taken

[sacred hill]

they have to think to add a mode where you dont lose everything like an arena or some shit like that

i would never grind 1 month for a gear that i can lose from a fcking random spike in the floor xD

[lucid root]

I'd imagine you'll be dying to traps less often at that skill level

[sacred hill]

there should be a bigger purpose than killing randoms with that gear

[opal sparrow]

Its a battle royale type game, killing randoms is the thing

[outer niche]

if ur grinding for a month and dying to traps i dont think losing loot is your biggest issue...

[boreal sun]

why downvote a suggestion about giving enemies accurate hitboxes? lmao

[sacred hill]

you basically want easier mobs

they are already very basic

[boreal sun]

excuse me?

I want FAIR mobs

they can make them difficult in ways other than "hitboxes that don't match the animation"

that's false difficulty

real difficulty involves giving them complex attacks that have counterplay, but are still fair

[hushed plover]

Listen buddy, this isn't a hitbox issue. This is a skill issue. You get hit when the sword goes through you. You don't get hit if it does not. Just backstep the attack like the rest of us instead of sidestepping it.

[boreal sun]

giving enemies accurate hitboxes is game design 101

their animation does not match their hitbox

I don't understand what drugs you're on if you think that failing that basic standard of game design is somehow good, and that someone pointing that out is just "skill issue"

[white cliff]

It’s an extract looter, that’s the core gameplay loop. It’s loot risk.

[white cliff]

The enemies have incredibly accurate hit boxes, you can shoot through a skeletons rib cage with an arrow lol.

I’ve never had any problems with hit boxes not matching models/animations of AI.

[sacred hill]

There should be a mode with a harder dungeon for people with legendaries. One shoting randoms with top gear will get you bored i a week

[boreal sun]

I mean, considering you can get hit while behind the overhead swing, and the fact that the skeleton champion's second and third hit of their combo deal 0 damage

your experience does not match the experience of others

at the very least they could be called "inconsistent" or "buggy" if it's a problem for some but not others

[white cliff]

It’s high roller?

[sacred hill]

it was a joke, only difference was partyes

[white cliff]

Yeah I haven’t seen enough complaints to warrant what your suggesting.

I personally think the AI needs to be harder.

[agile condor]

We need a righ holler mode that’s harder than normal that you have to like buy into or something

[boreal sun]

they should be harder in a way that's fair

not in a "this move can't be dodged because of inconsistency between animation and hitbox"

[white cliff]

Hit and step backwards?

[boreal sun]

my complaint is purely from a perspective of the game's animations and hitboxes matching up

it's not about difficulty

[white cliff]

If anything the animations have saved me because the hit boxes are so tightly tied to the models instead of being larger boxes.

I’ve been like huh, that swing should have hit me.

[boreal sun]

so they're inconsistent

because myself and everyone I played with had the opposite problem

[sacred hill]

enter with special gems/keys dropped from normal dungeon

[boreal sun]

specifically with skeleton footman overhead swing

it's aggravating that the playtest is closed, otherwise I'd get footage of it happening

[white cliff]

I mean you don’t have an upvote yet?

Seems like nobody agrees with you at this point.

[boreal sun]

because people are misconstruing it as "make the mobs easier"

god this community sometimes

[sacred hill]

maybe your suggestion was written wrong

just say fix mob atacks hitbox

[boreal sun]

I did

read it again

lol

[agile condor]

I certainly had no problem side stepping the overhead swing on the skeleton footman

[boreal sun]

I said "this mob can be unfair because of their hitboxes and that leads to frustration"

[white cliff]

You’re saying it’s swing can’t be side stepped, it can, but it’s easier to step backwards with certain enemies. I’ve never been hit from behind while an enemy is swinging forward, and your last point is mobs can headshot that’s unfair. That’s literally what you wrote.

[boreal sun]

but people see "unfair" and assume it's a newbie bitching about something they don't understand

[white cliff]

“Another thing which I think is unfair is their tendency to headshot players”

[boreal sun]

I said that their headshots lead to them being more dangerous than people expect

and it COULD be an issue

[sacred hill]

SKILLS

[white cliff]

Basic skeletons can headshot you.

Most enemies can headshot you.

[boreal sun]

yup

[agile condor]

Your suggestion could have been “some of the animation, hit times, and hit boxes seem to be bugged sometimes - Align them all so pve combat is a better experience”

[white cliff]

So I’m not sure what you’re trying to explain?

[boreal sun]

I'm just bringing up that it could be potentially an issue

lol

if they decide it's an issue then it's an issue

[sacred hill]

hitboxes will obviously be improved its an alpha

[boreal sun]

if it's by design then it's by design

[white cliff]

?

[boreal sun]

that's the hitbox part

lol

[white cliff]

So I’m talking about headshots now.

I broke your suggestion down by paragraph.

Follow the train of thought here.

[boreal sun]

so don't quote me on something related to paragraph 1 when you're talking about paragraph 2

[white cliff]

People are misconstruing your suggestion as make the game easier, when you just told me the reasoning for the last paragraph is it could be too hard.

[white cliff]

^

[boreal sun]

misquote first of all

and second of all, I brought it up because it's not clear if it's meant to be like that or if it's a coincidence because the swing is an overhead swing

if they wanted the skeleton to headshot you, cool

then it's not a problem

[white cliff]

Yep enemies can headshot you.

[boreal sun]

I'm aware

[white cliff]

It’s intended, glad we cleared that up.

[boreal sun]

but did they want the skeleton to headshot as often as they do

THAT'S the concern

not whether enemies are able to headshot

but whether this specific enemy is meant to do it so often

[white cliff]

Now I’m not going to use the skill issue argument.

But have you tried dodging it.

[opaque slate]

you can look straight up or down to not get hs

[boreal sun]

lmao

that's part 1 of the post

[white cliff]

Do you in-fact think the reasoning behind people dying to literally every type of AI. Is because extract looters have never been mainstream, and tacking on 40k players who don’t understand the importance of health are greeding for hits.

[boreal sun]

yes I tried dodging it

obviously

I know backstepping is effective

I'm not a new player

[real trellis]

When I was new and playing barb I got donked in the head a few times by the skellys before I figured out the timing

and before I figured out I could do a 180 and walk away faster than backpedaling

[boreal sun]

I know that as well

my complaint was specifically that the skeleton footman's overhead swing can't be dodged by walking sideways, despite being an overhead swing

vertical attacks can usually be sidestepped

some people are saying they COULD dodge to the side

[white cliff]

It can.

[boreal sun]

but myself and people I played with could never do so

so it's inconsistent at the very least

[austere mulch]

I'd reckon that may be intended, I'd maybe hazard you could ask in a QandA next playtest if the issue isnt amended before then

[real trellis]

I've had skeletons whip a 180 midswing to slap me in the face when I pulled aggro off my friend

[austere mulch]

And if it isn't it may well, again be intended

[boreal sun]

if it's intended for hitboxes to not match animations, then it's bad game design

if it's not intended then it's something that can be fixed and forgiven

[white cliff]

They matchup fine, these are some of the best hit boxes I’ve seen in a long time.

[boreal sun]

your experience is not the universal one unfortunately

[white cliff]

I’m not experiencing this issue, and I haven’t seen any other complaints on it.

[real trellis]

All I can say is that the skeletons can turn on a dime to make that vertical hit you

[boreal sun]

I wish I could say the same

[white cliff]

Sure, I’ve yet to see somebody agree with you though.

[real trellis]

It's not a hitbox issue so much as a turn radius issue

[boreal sun]

they don't turn once the animation starts

[vital fox]

ive experienced that aswell

[boreal sun]

yeah jkidd
so maybe like
it's a less common issue

it's still an issue though

[real trellis]

I swear I've seen them whip 180 after starting a swing

[white cliff]

I mean it sounds like you’re just not dodging properly.

[boreal sun]

maybe you should stop assuming the worst of me lol

[agile condor]

I’ve also seen it lol - it’s like they aggro a different person midswing

[vital fox]

no, ive had that happen to me

[boreal sun]

it happened to me and at least 4 other people I played with

[agile condor]

Also sounds like a bug for the report bugs channel though

[boreal sun]

and I know how to play the game, I know how to turn around to dodge npc hits faster and when I can get attacks in

[verbal marsh]

lol

[real trellis]

If you could provide a video example this would be a lot easier to figure out

[verbal marsh]

once the combat animation you've more then enough time to move.

[boreal sun]

I wish I could but the test is closed

[white cliff]

You didn’t think to record the bug?

[boreal sun]

otherwise I would've recorded and posted a long time ago

[verbal marsh]

[boreal sun]

no, because from what I'd been told by friends, this was a known problem

but clearly it's not

[agile condor]

The issue I’ve seen isn’t about dodging the skeleton swing on you that I’ve noticed. It’s that they start swinging one 1 person and then halfway through the swing they 180 to finish the swing on another person

[boreal sun]

nah

solo

[white cliff]

Not what they’re arguing.

[white cliff]

It’s two suggestions to from the bottom, take a read.

[verbal marsh]

sounds like someone

[agile condor]

Alright then idk - had no issues just strafing that swing solo

[verbal marsh]

has been playing too much new world.

confusing the games lol

[white cliff]

At least 9 other people would agree with you lol.

[boreal sun]

again
it could very well be an uncommon issue

[verbal marsh]

I see this issue often in the military.

Its called operator error.

[agile condor]

I think the vote ratio is more just because the post is long and doesn’t get to the point lol, no one wants to read all that

[boreal sun]

lol

suggestions are better when they include more nuance and reasoning

imo

[white cliff]

Agreed.

I hate it when people don’t elaborate.

[boreal sun]

but I know most people dislike that... for some inexplicable reason

[real trellis]

I don't think that piling on assumed criticism is a constructive addition to the conversation

[verbal marsh]

the problem is the lack of thinking.

[white cliff]

I tried to avoid that, but stating the swings can’t be dodged by side stepping is incorrect.

[real trellis]

What class were you playing while attempting to sidestep? Did you have a lot of armor on? Heavy weapon?

[boreal sun]

it's generally better to give people the benefit of the doubt and let them elaborate on their experience than to just say "skill issue" to feel good about yourself

lol

[boreal sun]

all of them

it was a consistent problem throughout the playtest

if I were a barb with heavy weapon I could accept it just not being possible due to speed, but it also happened as rogue with no chest armor

[white cliff]

Like it’s said there certainly is a difference in skill because of the genre itself. Tack 30-40k players on an existing extract looter, and they’re all dying to mobs and trying to give their opinions on what the game should be and why it should be easier.

[real trellis]

Were you attempting to walk directly perpendicular to the skeleton as it swung, or were you trying to circle behind it?

[white cliff]

Extract looters are notorious for being unforgiving and punishing.

People normally don’t like one shot mechanics or perma death.

As seen by a lot of suggestions.

[lucid root]

I think if they added a lockstep network option you'd see just how out of sync combat is right now, the hit boxes might be fine who knows

[real trellis]

There's a big difference between "I want the game to be easier" and "I want the hitboxes to be intuitive and make sense"

[boreal sun]

both
I tried side strafing and also circle strafing
it was most frustrating when I could literally strafe behind the skeleton and still get hit

[verbal marsh]

Basically if you have a dagger, stab a skeleton 5x in the back of the head and took aggro you're going to get hit for over swinging.

[white cliff]

I’d agree, I doubt it’s the hit boxes.

[real trellis]

We're talking about solo dodging

[verbal marsh]

he will have time to do an attack animation from you over swinging.

you over commmitted

[boreal sun]

this is what I've been saying from the start lmao

[white cliff]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

Original suggestion.

[real trellis]

why are you making up scenarios that don't apply to Candelle's issue lmao

[verbal marsh]

because you're talking about 180 swing from a mob and that is precisely the cause.

[lucid root]

Because the enemy ai works like this approach>stop>attack, they're always moving toward you, and the way you play against that is kiting then quickly approach and attack, so you're probably hitting the very tip of where their hit box actually is or just whiffing

[white cliff]

He’s explaining why mobs 180 because of damage agro.

Not what the original suggestion talked about.

Somebody chimed in without reading.

[real trellis]

Ah

Yeah I thought we already discussed damage aggro as a separate issue

[verbal marsh]

if he is mid swing yes over attacking will take his attention and he will turn around and swing on you.

[white cliff]

I posted the link, read the original suggestion.

[boreal sun]

I was never talking about damage aggro, so it's irrelevant to this conversation

[lucid root]

The network stuff will solve a lot of that stuff that seems like hitbox issues I think

[verbal marsh]

that is noone but your own fault.

[real trellis]

Yeah it might just have been a connection issue honestly

The game might've thought your hurtbox was still in his swing range

[white cliff]

True.

[real trellis]

because it hadn't updated your pos yet

[white cliff]

And it could be a reason why I felt like I should have been hit when I wasn’t.

Because my hitbox hadn’t updated to the current position.

[lucid root]

Like I said add lockstep like PoE had during the beta idk if they still have it

But you'll see lol

[verbal marsh]

or just don't swing while the ai is swining if you think you're about to steal aggro off it lol

[real trellis]

🤔 it is a mystery

[boreal sun]

at the very least it could be described as an inconsistency

but it's a consistent inconsistency, because it never seemed to function on my end
despite having a wired connection

[real trellis]

If it is still an issue in the next playtest please try to grab some footage of it. I'd be interested to know what's going on too.

[lucid root]

The only things I had trouble on were spiders and shields, spiders move fast and have small hit boxes

[white cliff]

When somebody finally states they have small hit boxes instead of broken ones!

[lucid root]

Have to wait for them to stop moving to actually hittem

[white cliff]

♥️

[verbal marsh]

I've seen rogues run around corners and hide mid swing while being chased. It is a good way to kill people chasing you lol.

[loud knoll]

This is the most toxic suggestion channel I have ever seen xD

But honestly, we are all here because we love the game, maybe we should just trust in their vision a little

[white cliff]

You can drag swipe on spiders.

[lucid root]

Just have to block certain people and it goes back to normal

[white cliff]

This wasn’t even close to toxic lol.

Also why have a suggestion channel if they don’t want people to make suggestions.

[verbal marsh]

only if you have the champion skeleton chasing tho since they have a longer attack.

[boreal sun]

the big frustration with spiders is that your weapon will almost always clank with the floor, making it slower to kill them

but that's just a personal gripe, not necessarily a problem with the game

[real trellis]

it balances out how little hp they have

[lucid root]

Sometimes I just say screw it and fireball them

[boreal sun]

and I'm sure if i dragged upwards, it might not even happen

could be a skill ceiling opportunity

[real trellis]

You can usually slap 2-3 of them in one swing even with a medium weapon

[boreal sun]

yeah the spiders are easy usually
it's when they swarm you when dealing with a different mob/player that they become dangerous

which makes sense

[verbal marsh]

Spiders are tough to kil with war maul at first.

[real trellis]

Pretty much. I don't like them but they serve a specific niche purpose and I don't begrudge that

[verbal marsh]

I like that spiders are more difficult with some of the heavier hitting weapons lol

[lucid root]

I forgot bl0w is a blocked word 🙃

[boreal sun]

most things are more difficult with the heavier hitting weapons

lmao brain crossed wires

[real trellis]

I had a hell of a time killing them with a felling axe before I figured out how to use that thing

Oh yeah dude I do that all the time if I read a word while I'm typing lol

[verbal marsh]

I always hit the floor with my felling axe lol, i need to learn to surive glide it for more kills.

surface

[real trellis]

It always felt like it had a really short range for how long it was

but I didn't have THAT much time to play around with one

[boreal sun]

I think that applies to all the two handers

they feel like they're much stubbier than they should be

[real trellis]

I guess? The spear feels properly long

[boreal sun]

well

besides the spear

[real trellis]

the zwei is uncomfortably long

[verbal marsh]

felling axe range felt around the same as a dagger.

[boreal sun]

but the axes and maul in particular

[real trellis]

I think the issue with the axes is that you need to keep a hand nearer the head of the weapon to control it

[boreal sun]

they felt really stubby, which feels bad considering how slow they make you

[verbal marsh]

I love the zwei cause noone expects the third attack for some reason.

[real trellis]

You can't just slide your grip down to the bottom and expect things to go well for you

[boreal sun]

yeah it makes sense from how a human would actually USE an axe

[real trellis]

As someone who spent countless hours splitting firewood with a splitting maul, it's realistic

[boreal sun]

though if you know how to chop wood, you know that you do kind of slide the grip down as the axe falls

at least if you're splitting wood downwards

balance/gameplay wise though

feels bad

[real trellis]

somewhat yeah, but that's an unmoving target at an ideal height

[verbal marsh]

You ever watch those forester competition's, wood chopping is srs business.

[real trellis]

Hell they used to do those woodchopping competitions at a park in my home town lol. Sawdust for days

[verbal marsh]

Sick I'm jealous I would love to see one live.

That speed feet chop thing they do freaks me out lol

[boreal sun]

in terms of gameplay, I do kinda think 2h weapons like the axes and other slow weapons need some qol

they bonk against walls a lot more often and hurt teammates a lot more often if they lack a vertical swing

and more range would be nice from a balance perspective but it might make them bonk/teamkill even MORE

[austere mulch]

I think some have suggested alternate swing buttons and similar things that give diversity to the lumbering effect of certain 2 handers

[verbal marsh]

Yeah I still want a slight gap closer on 2h weapons daggers shouldnt be able to in and out so easily.

[austere mulch]

Eh? What kind of weapon would in and out easier than a dagger?

[verbal marsh]

my foot

[austere mulch]

I think there's a suggestion for that

[verbal marsh]

I think its a good suggestion

where is it so I can up vote it

[boreal sun]

I made a suggestion for a dedicated "stab" button, with the obvious drawback that things like axes would take a damage penalty for stabbing

but I think it didn't perform very well

[verbal marsh]

so far the game uses what, everything but the under triggers?

if it were to be transfered to a controller use

no it does use the under triggers already so all keys are taken mmm

[boreal sun]

there is precedent for an alt fire
since some weapons' right-click gives an alternative swing

[verbal marsh]

well you'd have under triggers for lrmb, then top triggers for item scroll, x y for item use, then a b for skills.

wait i think items were just a single thing nm on that.

no yeah you'd need to be able to scroll nm

[lucid root]

Are they planning on a console release?

[verbal marsh]

I think they plan to make it portable isn't confirmed.

[lucid root]

More console players = more noob stompin

[verbal marsh]

I plan to setup my controller to play some next pt if it allows.

[hollow flicker]

the weapons that don't have an alt swing, I get the impression that they just haven't implemented it yet

at least i'm hoping

regarding 2 handers anyway

[verbal marsh]

Might be diff between simple vrs martial weapons hrm

[lucid root]

Giving it to just the slowest weapons I can see that

[verbal marsh]

I'm fine with war maul remaining a bulky slow hammer.

[boreal sun]

I think if those weapons can't block, then they should be able to alt swing, and the alt swing and normal swing should synergize well

so hopefully that's how it turns out

[hollow flicker]

unless it's the longsword and then it gets blocking and riposte and freaking everything

such a fun weapon

best weapon

[hollow hatch]

Looks like swing speed is where it needs to be according to votes on my suggestion. Guess I missed out on the fast weapons haha.

[verbal marsh]

alt weapon attacks are kinda like baulders gates alt weapon attacks

[unkempt basalt]

Ok but hear me out... scrolls

[wintry forge]

People will want some weapons attack speeds to be faster if a dodge is added, because they won't be able to hit players with slow weapons.

[hollow hatch]

I think I was just laughing at the speed of the big ole two hander(warrior? Barbarian? Forgot) I made a comment to my friend that I could swing that weapon faster. Not that I’m strong I’m just not THAT slow. I haven’t tried other classes besides rogue though so maybe I’m looking into it too much

[wintry forge]

No, you're right. Some weapons are too slow. Some people will say the attack speed is fine, but right now all you can to avoid getting hit is walk sideways or backwards. So, if they increased the attack speed it would be harder to avoid getting hit. However, if they add a dodge mechanic people will want the attack speed faster otherwise they won't be able to hit players while using slow weapons.

[mystic swan]

@steady cloud please make more suggestions

[fallow owl]

instead of map edge (shrinking red zone) shrinking brickwall for no return for highroller only. trapped player will be smashed.

[wintry forge]

Have the devs said whether they will add a doge mechanic?

[lusty wren]

Doge is otto 😄

[vestal thorn]

With flat damage modifiers being very strong in playtest 3, fast weapons as they were seemed fast enough.

Every class has access to enough weapons with slower or faster hit rates and increased range. If weapons were made any faster, then a lot of modifiers and agi values would need to be rebalanced I think, so not the way to go balance wise.

As far as opinion goes, in PvP the better players you face the faster the weapon you want because your hit window will shrink a lot and more importantly your move speed (as melee) due to them trying to bait out your attacks and counter. You can also make more mistakes as melee with a faster weapon without completely throwing the fight.

When playing Barb I always felt that Felling/Battle Axe was better as a PvE option, then hatchet/francisca swap for PvP for most scenarios.

The game wants you do a weapon swap/sheathing or at the very least makes a very compelling reason to do so.

If players actually notice you and have the same move speed, you'll almost never catch up to someone keeping your 2hand swinging/unsheathed which I see a majority of players do, even more so if you miss due to move mechanics.

Most barb VoDs you see them one-shotting with felling, but it's almost always against players without a clue what is happening. 2hand barbs aren't garbage in PvP, I just mean every weapon kind of has it's time and place and single wielding fast low movespeed penalty weapons felt like a huge meta in the last test.

Also if your class has access to a fast weapon that does what you want but isn't a 2hander is that really something worth fixing when it seems to be only because it's not your favorite weapon?

[frail locust]

#VOIP

[foggy shadow]

that would be pretty cool

scrolls that have rare spells on them

like the wind wall/stone wall/see invisibility etc

[vivid rover]

i wonder how much a town portal scroll would sell for

[foggy shadow]

if thats a scroll, definitely ridiculously rare and expensive

[vestal thorn]

I really hope scrolls are not much more than 4x4 in size or stack if they're that good and tradeable. It's going to be a massive inventory pain. 🤣

[wintry forge]

@vivid rover This seems like something for suggestion-discussion. I don't see a suggestion in here: #d-and-d-suggestions message

[vivid rover]

reread the post sir and you will understand

we want weapon sheathing and swap

[strange sable]

No one wants to read a suggestion as long as a essay

[vivid rover]

reread the suggestion again and you will understand sir

[faint dirge]

bro writing book

can u write book about something important

[vestal thorn]

Some of you are really weird for reposting my messages as a suggestion? as an alt discord account too... Please get help.🤣

[faint dirge]

maybe they just have the same idea?

or is it exact same wordin

[vestal thorn]

It's posted verbatim, so no I doubt that. Just a troll.

[mossy venture]

Copy paste

[mossy venture]

Our Idea

[vestal thorn]

It wasn't even an idea, it's discussion to a specific reply. It makes no sense even putting what I wrote up there as a suggestion.

[mossy venture]

😂

[lusty wren]

Gross dodge... what is this dark souls?

[mossy venture]

Wait, there are souls in this game

[lusty wren]

Yes remove chest piece to find heart/soul 😄

[mossy venture]

At least wait for me to finish lockpicking the chest before you kill me 😭

[wintry forge]

Not dodge roll, just dodge.

[lusty wren]

Ya i no like 😄

[loud matrix]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
Look who wrote that.

[lusty wren]

Its a good suggestion tho 😄

[steady cloud]

tomorrow i am working now

[loud matrix]

It's more the irony of who wrote that.

[olive spruce]

#d-and-d-suggestions message For this one, I don't really see players who lose sticking around to wait to talk to the people who escaped. I could see a place people could run around and not enter into a round automatically, some kind of community tavern or hall.

Edit: I too wish the tavern pre-game was a little bit longer, but I'm happy that it's currently short because of how many people are playing.

[wintry forge]

I've only been making about 1 suggestion per day. I have 3 so far today, because 2 of them are trying to fix the suggestion channel.

[tough jay]

that would be really nice as well, i suggested it the way i did with server avainility and traffic in mind. If you connect it to an already active server of people its less devs have to do. I know nothing about coding and that was a guess

[loud matrix]

Bruh, don't lie. You make more suggestions in an hour than I made in the entire channel.

[wintry forge]

Look over the last few days. I'm not one of the people making lots of suggestions. And I keep my suggestions short, so they are quick reads.

[tough jay]

never mind people liked your suggestions

[opaque slate]

i knew you had it in you to make a good suggestion

[lucid root]

Surprised rogues did so well in the top 10 kills

Wizard not surprising

[ionic mango]

please never go through the trouble of adding a dodge to the game, the core fighting mechanic of the game is almost perfect as it is

[tough jay]

i kind of agree since hit boxes are clean enough to use crouch to dodge in some places as well

though it would be intresting as maybe a class feature

[lucid root]

Oops looking at the wrong one, wizard is #1

Pretty balanced in terms of distribution aside from cleric all things considered

[ionic mango]

it feels like everyone is looking for crazy ways to improve combat and change it up, but isnt this combat rn the one we fell in love with and keep begging for the released game for?

i dont get why people are trying to ruin how it is right now with dashes and dodging and stuff like that

[lucid root]

Because it's a different game that people aren't used to, my guess. Some people just don't know what they like

[olive spruce]

Love the combat as is currently.

Like that when I hit people in the face with a battle-axe they fold.

[tough jay]

well maybe not everyone was the most excited about combat. Im a bit of a more casual player, and what i enjoyed was going in, running around and killing monsters. I died a lot to players, and if i was more salty i could understand wanting to suggest anything to help me live longer

i am personally fine with how combat it

[ionic mango]

if ur more of a casual gamer, you add dodging and dashes and ull never find urself winning against sweaty players @tough jay

[novel halo]

leave my jank morrowind combat alone

[tough jay]

true enough XD

[ionic mango]

ur adding more mechanics for experienced players to dominate casual players with

[lucid root]

We talked about a dodge but specifically for rogue

[novel halo]

the combat being jank also encourages good team play tbh

[lucid root]

And no i-frames

[ionic mango]

i love how jank the combat is

its one of the attractions to the game

[novel halo]

simple to figure out and a bit challenging to master

[tough jay]

im kind of in the middle on that. I would love to see the combat get more accurate, with less enemies having 360 moves to make player/enemy combat a bit more predictable in a good way

[novel halo]

game really humbles you quick

[tough jay]

THIS

[ionic mango]

@tough jay i dont totally disagree with u on the accuracy and predictability, but i think dodges and more mechanics added would build to the opposite of that

[tough jay]

i agree as well

i was mostly discussing dodge as speculation

[novel halo]

the 3 shot ranger dashing away from you

pain

[ionic mango]

if u wanna take it a step further, you can dodge the 360 swings by bending ur camera way back

[lucid root]

Chivalry moment

[novel halo]

lmao

[tough jay]

wait can you really???

[ionic mango]

yeah

the hitboxes are crisp enough for u to bend backwards and they miss the swing

usually with a crouch too

[tough jay]

I didnt even consider dodging via camera movement, but i figured out crouch at least 💀

thats so nice

i love dark and darker

[novel halo]

give wizard a stroke spell that gives you a stroke

[ionic mango]

we all do :D

[hushed plover]

Let us cast stroke on discord users in d-n-d suggestions

[ionic mango]

except desolace

the anti christ of the suggestion channel

desolent*

[hushed plover]

Yes, have him publicly cut down for an event

[ionic mango]

ahahaha

[hushed plover]

Would make a good example lol

[novel halo]

finally some entertainment

booo it killed my gif

[boreal sun]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
actively wanting less nuance in suggestions

I don't get it

[lucid root]

I'm pretty much wiped on ideas, just here to check the new ones

Vendor refresh is pretty popular

Limit it to 2 or 3 per day

[wintry forge]

No, I'm not suggesting adding dodge because I'm bad at the game. I think combat needs more complexity to stay interesting.

[timber glen]

I think there will be additional complexity in the way the game is played moving forward though. Combat doesn't necessarily need to be more complex as there is already dodging and weaving and clear skill gaps between players.

[strange sable]

Classes seem to be very balanced from the new data

[lucid root]

Yeah, even clerics getting some action

[tender magnet]

Combat really doesn't need to be more complex, like what was said before, people came here because the combat was good, why change it for the skill gap to increase

[wintry forge]

I think most people don't want to have to read essays in order to vote on something.

[strange sable]

It would be nice to see data on which class kills what other class

[tender magnet]

Rogue with high kill stat makes sense too

[timber glen]

There are certainly some common themes as far as class counters, but I can tell you that as a barbarian, fighter, and ranger, I killed most every class pretty regularly.

[tough jay]

people agreed with you via votes, but i personally dont mind. I like people being able to properly explain themselves

[timber glen]

Also if you don't want to read to vote on something, just don't? 🤷

[lucid root]

Wizard got top 2 twice

[steady cloud]

Guys please vote my sugjesyion

Thx

[tender magnet]

Shhhh

[steady cloud]

Vote with 👍 pls

[hushed plover]

Please go to your bed. It's high time you go to sleep ^^

[steady cloud]

Ok

👍

[dull glen]

because combat without outplay potential just turns into dps race which is boring

[wintry forge]

Long suggestions limit how many people are willing to vote because of the time spent reading.

[timber glen]

There definitely is outplay potential though. You can cause people's attacks to miss by sidestepping and crouching, even at melee range.

[tender magnet]

Okay, that's fine Not everything needs voted on by everyone

[tough jay]

at the end of the days votes mean nothing though, even if something gets 100% support (or zero percent) its up to the devs to pick things that match thier vision/ability

so some people missing out by choice seems ok

[dull glen]

only with the slow weapons and if the attacking player cannot aim/track

[boreal sun]

there's nuance behind every opinion and suggestion, and removing that nuance removes an important aspect of deciding whether those ideas should be implemented

[tender magnet]

Also just because a post is long doesn't mean you should downvote the post, don't make your laziness affect others posts

[ionic mango]

if you make outplay/dodge mechanics the slow weapons will always miss or be dodged the fast weapons will always hit, so the whole game would have to go through major changes

[dull glen]

nothing is stopping you from swinging after the dodge, the dodge wouldn't be spammable
fat weapons already always hit if you can aim/track

[lucid root]

Rogue dancing around a slow barb with a maul I like that

[tough jay]

instead of dps raid it would be speed race

[boreal sun]

it already is

[dull glen]

why do you think low geared people were running 0 gear last playtest

for the speed

[boreal sun]

mobility is extremely important with a combat system like this

it's arguably as important as damage

can't take damage if they can't hit you

[tough jay]

fair enough

[boreal sun]

fast weapons with fast movement are already the best choice due to the mobility factor and the scaling of damage increases combining with their fast swing speed

adding a dodge would just make the best thing even better

at least, in their current state

[tough jay]

i know in the future (from that menu that was disabled regarding level up) theres slots for more skills. itd be nice if it was an optional thing perhaps

[boreal sun]

I think if they were to add a dodge, it'd have to have a set recovery time that's punishable if they read it
and it probably shouldn't function as an invincible move you can just use on reaction, it'd have to be predictive

[ionic mango]

more mobility and mobility options would ruin the game as is

[boreal sun]

but even then it would give a strict advantage over not having it, as having more options is generally stronger than having limited options

[tough jay]

im really on the fence if it would or wouldnt tbh, both points make sense

[dull glen]

yeah no iframes for a dodge just avoiding the weapon

[olive spruce]

I feel like some of the two handed weapons don't reach as far as they should/look like they should.

[boreal sun]

buuut keep in mind that having faster walking speed can effectively give you this ability anyway

[ionic mango]

the combat that is in place rn woudlnt work with high mobility, it would have to be changed heavily mainly stuff like fighter and barb

[olive spruce]

If they reached farther I think that counters the small range high attack speed weapons.

[dull glen]

yeah thats why the best melee character was a wizard with +dmg and ignited crystal sword

[tough jay]

itd be cool if they reached farther but only at the end, like how someone suggested the flail should work in suggestions

[boreal sun]

some 2h weapons are really good range, like the spear
but the axes feel like daggers in terms of range and that feels really bad when you're fighting against a dagger

you're slower, and they can dodge your swings

[olive spruce]

I completely agree on the axe ranges. Spear was good.

[dull glen]

spear and longsword were one of the few decent 2handers

[boreal sun]

regardless of what they do to the 2handers, they may never compare to the mobility and DPS-scaling advantages of the smaller weapons

kind of just a fact of game design

[olive spruce]

I felt like many times the axes would reach only as far as a sword and in some cases barely counter a dagger when a rouge would come in close and then move out of range.

[boreal sun]

they can try to give them fun niches, at least

[olive spruce]

Spear really felt like you could fight people way far away (which makes sense)

[boreal sun]

spear was great the few times I used it, but they're pretty rare and I almost never went into trade channels for my weapons