suggestion-discussion

[tired osprey]

Holy Light ignores armour and can be buffed, cast 4 times and has range.

[wide sage]

or like.. imagine being a skeleton, fighting abunch of players when suddenly you hear a cleric start chanting. you're gonna BOLT SO HARD

[tired osprey]

Haman li testo raka pasta!

[severe saffron]

wait are we talking about a whole new skele class or the cosmetic you could get this playtest?

[wide sage]

amplifying the skeleton cosmetic to be a full blown race

[tired osprey]

Whole new optional race: Unlocked through getting out with a blue item called Litchi's Brew that you can drink to permanently turn that character into a skeleton.

[severe saffron]

ohhhh well then ignore what i said b4 i was talking about the cosmetic XD

[wary shell]

What was the consensus on an orb like item for clerics?

[severe saffron]

explain?

[tired osprey]

Maybe not a orb but maybe a Crucifix like item?

[wary shell]

Well I mean in terms of functionality

[tired osprey]

Casting item that can be used alongside a small weapon or medium weapon.

[severe saffron]

ok yeah they should totaly get somthing

[wary shell]

Yeah like flanged mace, crucifix or tome or something

[severe saffron]

cross in one hand mace in another seems like it fits

that would be awesome

[wide sage]

prayer beads maybe

[wary shell]

A thurible could be cool

[tired osprey]

Smack skeleton with crucifix BONK.

[severe saffron]

extra dmg for blut XD

[wide sage]

also imagine a skeleton necromancer. runs around with a literal skeleton crew and blends in

its the fantasy I NEEED in my life

[severe saffron]

cleric casts puri and boom theres just one asshat standing there like oh

XD

[wide sage]

I am an advocate for skeleton race AND necromancer, and I also aprove of both being exceptionally weak against clerics

[tired osprey]

That would be awesome with smoke coming out from burning those Holy 11 herbs and spices.

[severe saffron]

would you be able to use it as a blinding weapon with 1d4 burn dmg 😛

[wide sage]

pocket spice!

[tired osprey]

Swinging it would create a smoke screen that damages undead.

[severe saffron]

fuck you ranger shoot at this !

XD

[tired osprey]

Now I want a thurible 2 hander that can cast and swing like a decorative flail.

[hollow flicker]

Halberd LMB second attack already is a thrusting animation

[wide sage]

bad design. first attack should be thrust to allow it to function in corridors similar to spear.

[hollow flicker]

I don't mind it either way, although truly the halberd got me killed while trying to fight someone in a doorway

[wide sage]

ahah, finally posted

[night bloom]

Wish I did more testing with ranger trueshot ability than i did

[bronze sail]

single mode 내줘

[wide sage]

-pokes head in general chat. slowly leaves, as not to be noticed-

I'm safe here. We have thought provoking discussions about game features and balance.

[fierce thicket]

I'd rather weapons have light and heavy attacks than to be forced to use a certain swing only as the first attack.

[wide sage]

sounds neat, but even if it were slower, people would just replace normal swings with heavies rather than utilizing both, or ignore heavies altogether. Even dark souls, which has a much more competent combat system than this, struggled to make heavies worthwhile for a long time.
Currently some weapons have an alternate attack as right click that does something different (poke vs sweep), while other weapons such as the longsword have a block

[misty walrus]

I like the Idea of Zweihandlers where the alter attack is a faster 2 hit attack that cannot follow a third strike. It becomes deciding whether u want 3 continuous slow attacks or releasing 2 wild swing fast

The move itself sucks tho lmfao

[wide sage]

yeah. i brough the zwei along for fights in big open spaces

hunted down a rogue that snuffed out every single light in the library, just wildly swinging so he couldnt get near

made me love the zwei.. and then small spaces happened

[misty walrus]

I almost cry when I pvp with it in the room with 5 chests and spawn 4 mummies

My blade keep bumping into walls and my opponent throws like 18 axes on me

[fierce thicket]

I don't think having light and heavy attacks would lead to people ignoring heavy attacks or only using it, especially if they have different properties and swings.

[unborn pond]

#d-and-d-suggestions message this guy might be a genius

[misty walrus]

It would be cool if the right click could be like, turn the sword around and bonk people with the pommel

Cool for tight space and vibe

[wide sage]

that, or half-sword grip for a thrusting attack

but mordhau grip bonks would make me happy inside

[misty walrus]

Why not both hehe

Half-sword grip connected with Bonk

[wide sage]

oh so like, bonk as the second swing? I LIKE it

[misty walrus]

YEAAA exactly one hand forward when half-swording and put second hand forward for second bonk

It make sense too ima suggest it

[wide sage]

please do

i also finally typed out my necromancer suggestion

been sitting on it for like 3 days

[misty walrus]

nice lmao

[gritty kernel]

whats peoples thoughts on different chest/door opening triggers?

[fierce thicket]

wdym?

[misty walrus]

triggers?

[gritty kernel]

like atm rogue and barb are the only classes with perks and such that can change how you go through an area, with lockpicks and smashing chests

like with rogue you can open locked chests and doors and barb can smash some chest in areas to go different ways

what if you had a ward spell on a chest/door and needed a spell or scroll for example to open them giving other classes some more utility in exploration

for example what if a door needed a light spell casted on it to open

or a ranger/ fighter has to shoot an arrow at a target on the other side of the room for it to open a chest

[fierce thicket]

I don't like it. It's unintuitive and it's not something you'd see in any dungeon crawler.

[wide sage]

that seems both too specific, and a way of saying "I want this feature that certain classes have available to them, to be available to all classes." which is effectively taking away their unique benefits. because you'd have to make more rooms to make these new scenarios, and then you're left with "everyone has a special roomTM, once again taking away the true value

[gritty kernel]

i mean this in a everyone can buy a lockpick way if that makes sense since i think its confirmed in q&a that scrolls are coming anyway

[fierce thicket]

confirmed? Where do you see that?

[gritty kernel]

i swear i saw this being answered on q and a

[fierce thicket]

oh i see the q&a

[gritty kernel]

i dont want to add anything to the classes really just more options for unique interactions with each class in the dungeon cause as much as the rogue and barb have that all the other classes seem to be lacking on this, like id take a flying spell to avoid traps if that was offered

[wide sage]

you know, I was probably too harsh in my rebuttal. Every class offering something different thats not just combat focused IS a pretty cool thing

I would just like it to not be different versions of the same thing

[gritty kernel]

its all good, that's why i said different triggers im not so sure what would make the best options for this with each class

[verbal marsh]

who else thinks bards will be gimp and annoying lol

[hollow flicker]

Ability: Coin Toss

1 Silver Coin = 1 Dmg

[wide sage]

hi samira

[verbal marsh]

yes hopefully there is an ability to throw silver coins at people lol

[gritty kernel]

i think if i can smash a lute on someones head it will be fine

[verbal marsh]

maybe that will be how bards cast confusion - toss coins on ground

[hollow flicker]

I think it will be hilarious if by having bard in your party you just completely forgo stealth and make tons of noise

[wide sage]

maybe SO MUCH noise that it actually disorients your enemy

you know he's near, but you dont know WHERE

[gritty kernel]

if it gave the buff so long as you kept playing that would be funny

[covert ember]

What the GreenBorder mean at the Suggestions ?

[wide sage]

think it just means how much attention its gotten

[covert ember]

Ah i hoped it ment a dev noticed it 🤪

[wide sage]

i mean, its more likely a dev will

[wanton eagle]

ez mine got a green border #d-and-d-suggestions message B)

@robust salmon bro that aint a suggestion thats an argument against a suggestion

[wide sage]

@robust salmon based

[robust salmon]

@wanton eagle it's a suggestion to NOT add solo queue, i can't type more cus i don't have nitro

[wanton eagle]

i guess thats kinda true

[wide sage]

the bot only accepts 1900 characters anyways

[robust salmon]

i also felt it would be a little mean to specifically call x and y person out with @s

[wanton eagle]

but i do agree with you. not being able to adapt or not wanting to is just a skill issue

[wide sage]

its fine, spazz maticus isnt accepting any rebutal anyways

[robust salmon]

i was kind of on the make solo queue side at the beginning but the experience and enjoyment i got after persevering a little bit made me change my mind, it's kinda like not wanting an easy mode in souls games

[wide sage]

Same

when i first started the playtest i was getting insanely frustrated

went to bed, woke up, tried again, still frustrated. gave it one more chance the next day and started to really like it

its a game MEANT to be played as a 3 man, the same way league of legends HAS to be played with 4 other people. allowing players to venture on their own solo against teams of player is a bonus that didnt have to be included in my eyes

[robust salmon]

i just stopped taking the game seriously and having gear fear, went in as a naked skelly with a longsword, made friends with the first solo i saw and goofed around, often people would attack me despite my emotes of friendliness so i had enough of those players and smushed them, if i could kill 1-2 sometimes even 3 mans as a naked skelly i thought why not try a serious build with decent gear, so i did that for every class and had a blast

[wide sage]

I stopped trying to force gear wizard to do what everyone else was doing, and just started taking stock fighter. suddenly i got 5 succesful extracts in a row, where as the prior nights I was lucky to get 3 in an entire play session

[robust salmon]

ye but league only has 1 win condition and if your win condition is goof around and have fun, it's often times at your teammates expense, d&d allows u to goof off and get up to your own shenanigans on your own without bothering teammates. You can go in wanting to just goof, u can go in wanting to pvp, you can go in wanting to be a loot goblin, you can go in wanting to do invis jumpscare barbarian with invis pots and shout skills (super fun btw watching ppl crap themselves)

[wide sage]

exactly

[robust salmon]

ye i was struggling too at 1 point and afterwards i just wasnt

[wide sage]

lmao.. spazz downvoted. of course

but yeah, part of the fun as a solo player isnt even to fight and win, or even barely sneak past or escape, (tho those are valid joys) part of it is just from fucking with the premades. being a little nuisance player that outsmarts them

[robust salmon]

it's super fun

especially when you can smell how fresh they are and they chase you in to death traps or you bring multiple rooms worth of mobs just to invis and let them deal with it

so much stuff you can do to have fun, having fun is the win for me and eventually you learn so much about the game that you can outmatch the average 3 man in multiple ways

[reef cosmos]

Transforming spiders in balls like in Grounded to help arachnophobia, what do you guys think?

[wide sage]

dont go diving into dark scarry dungeons if you're afraid of spiders

[reef cosmos]

That's not a valid argument

[loud matrix]

How about no.
Spiders are a common video game enemy, especially in fantasy and has been a tabletop staple for a long time.
As an arachnophobe, relish the chance you get to kill them.

[wide sage]

sure it is

[reef cosmos]

What I mean it's an option, like on the settings for arachnophobia where you click and it transform the spiders into balls.
Not make all spiders balls for everyone

[wide sage]

i think its unessesary and a non-issue

[old merlin]

Can we at least agree spiders don't need an unlimited spawner? Like 10 max pls

[spare nymph]

Spiders are not there to be just another type of enemy, they serve the purpose of creating a problem you need to deal with as soon as possible. Maybe just make them deal less damage and instead slow you down or something, to make it less of a threat and more a nuisance.

[old merlin]

I ask because in terms of gameplay they don't mesh. Nothing else spawns unlimited and I believe it'd be better for pace.

[wide sage]

I'd prefer to just make it easier to jump over them

hate how something so small can body block so hard

[old merlin]

I'll take it lol. Yeah jumping them is like a little teleport.

N B4 elite spider mummies become number one npc people died to

[bitter stratus]

Are we having this discussion again?

Arachnophobia mode falls under accessibility options which nowadays isnt that big of a deal to implement. There's nothing requiring people to use it, but the existence of the option for those who need it is nice. Just because you dont have a phobia, doesnt mean others dont and giving them the option to fully enjoy the game without giving them a gameplay edge over others is a no brainer.

[wide sage]

I don't think it's nessesary, that is my take

[wispy patrol]

@bitter stratus trying to suggest any QoL improvements just gets you met with resistance in this chat. They all believe it will break the integrity of the core gameplay.

[bitter stratus]

And why dont you think its necessary?

[wide sage]

because im that guy that thinks people can get over it, even if they dont want to believe so

I'm no scientist so by all means feel free to ignore me, but that is my take

[burnt nova]

Arachnophobia mode just turns spiders into little gnomes

[bitter stratus]

Actually horrifying. has my full support

[wide sage]

just realized I never replied to this. gonna do that and then fuck off to bed.
I think some QoL changes can be good, but I also believe that giving too much DOES have a subtle effect on the game that can very easily snowball if not treated with caution. Just because it doesn't effect game balance doesn't mean it automatically gets a pass. Think of the clutter that is your stereotypical EA HUD design. Just because you can, and just because theres good intentions behind it, doesn't mean you should, or that it is inherently a good thing. That is my take, hope you all have a good day and/or night.

[wispy patrol]

Sleep well.

[potent rampart]

Providing options for particularly handicapped players doesnt provide an advantage, it evens out the playing field.

When three people try to watch a game looking over a fence, with one being able to watch standing, the others being to small to do the same, you don't get a disadvantage by giving them boxes to stand on. Nor do they gain advantage over you.

It's a common system in any kind of video game.
Color blind settings, reduced gore and splatter effects, hell even filtering of strong language.

If you don't need it, good for you. But don't prevent others from getting boxes. Or kick them away with the (imo absolutely dumbfound argument) that they can overcome their height and grow if they just want it enough as you theorized.

Sleep well and think about that.

[glacial bridge]

disguising dumbing down the game and excusing it as QOL is meh

[bleak mural]

sweedstone seems like a bit of a commie XD

[simple bluff]

btw why the really why the hell rogue dont have max resourcefulness lol

isnt that like their entire thing

[glacial bridge]

well he did literally try to explain a dumb socialism meme as if it was profound 😂

[bleak mural]

XDXD no way bro

[exotic leaf]

I don't know if anybody did this suggestion: make the venom clouds from zombies, been able to explode with fire, like fireball or torchs. Like the interaction that exists in "Curse of the Dead Gods"

[bleak mural]

i think the rouge should be able to use the bow , at least the survival boow

[potent rampart]

We are talking about game mechanics. Not about printing money or to tax the rich to pay for everyone. Which are unproductive and against economical principle.

[bleak mural]

sweedstone stfu and go back to reddit

[potent rampart]

Don't know what brought you to the conclusion that thinking inclusive equald communism.

[potent rampart]

You are welcome to disagree.

[verbal marsh]

never heard of rogues using bows in dnd unless multiclassing lol

[bleak mural]

i dont argue with morons

[glacial bridge]

ide rather stick to discussing game mechanics. i was just saying that QOL isnt a blanket protection for any and all changes

[bleak mural]

well i mean isnt a rouge basicly a assassin, they use bows all the time and ive never played dnd

[potent rampart]

Excuse me? Did I insult you with a mere discussion input? Their was absolutely nothing personal in my lines.

[exotic leaf]

DnD it's like the base from Dark and Darker... it's based in that old role game...

[verbal marsh]

Only time I used a bow in dnd was Nwn2 bard/sorc/arcane archer was a bit overpowered with song of requiem and arcane arrows lol

[glacial bridge]

i'm fine with rogues being a throwing dagger class, but they should have some sort of advantages whether they can apply poison or have infinite ammo like rangers

[potent rampart]

Fair enough. Where would be the line for you though? I mean, in terms of providing no benefit to players that use QoL options?

[bleak mural]

i know what it i9s just never playded before , and if this is like dnd then why cant the wizard use move earth or any of the other cool sp[eels

[potent rampart]

What would be a reasonable way to determine whether a change is over-the-top or useful without changing balance?

[glacial bridge]

there is no line. but you dont get to diminish arguments against a proposed change by declaring it QOL and anyone against it being haters

[verbal marsh]

I've years of gaming experience feel free to run your suggestions by me : P

[exotic leaf]

First of all, the game isn't complete at all... They have lot of content to add... Like the base of DnD, DRAGONS. This was a beta man, chill

[potent rampart]

Hm, fair point. Sorry.
Still disagree with the guy saying people can just overcome phobia if they "want it hard enough".

[bleak mural]

dragons! oh hell yeah

[bleak mural]

i used to be scared of spiders untill i picked on up one day so i gotta agree with him

[potent rampart]

Well, how would you determine that? Did you experience QoL changes that went beyond their intent or had negative output although done by "good means"? And vice versa?

[verbal marsh]

spiders are cool until you're eating them in your sleep.

[potent rampart]

Unscientific and personal. But good for you.

[bleak mural]

geezzus `, no man plz keep that thought FAAAR away from mee

[glacial bridge]

iunno. i would rather the devs make the game they are making and ignore outside pressures. if someone is phobic to mimics then does that need to change? things are scary

[verbal marsh]

I do hope they add drow and drider lol

[bleak mural]

why you such an asshole XD "unscientific and personal" like no duh i just said a personal story and im not a scientist , who pizzd in your cornflakes this morning dudeXD

[potent rampart]

Ohhhh sick. Sick sick sick.

[verbal marsh]

I mean who doesnt love a lil forgotten realms?

[potent rampart]

I just said something myself without insulting you. Don't know what drove you to the pole.

[bleak mural]

im done dealing with him he can get blocked

[potent rampart]

Do as you please. Free choice.

[bleak mural]

thats a really good point

[verbal marsh]

🫣

I been thinking of playing baldurs gate 3 for once since they announced the official release date but i dunnnoooo

[potent rampart]

Hmm, that's why I seriously try to figure where the line can/should be.
Boils down to Dev choice what to cater for in the end I guess? As it doesn't change any kind of balance, it's just a matter of what they wanna put effort in right? Can agree on that?

[bleak mural]

so if this is gunna be like dnd are there gunna be halflings and dwarvs and elfs? and will they get race bonus's?

[potent rampart]

Such split opinions on that game I witnessed, really, if the pricetag is no issue for you just go ahead an give it a go..😅🤟🏽

[glacial bridge]

the question comes down to creating custom hit boxes. humanoid size races are easy like the skeleton they added

[bleak mural]

have they announced anything like that?

[glacial bridge]

making a halfling takes more work... and do you really want 10 million halfling rangers shooting and running

[bleak mural]

good point

[verbal marsh]

I honestly don't see how they're going to balance races.

[glacial bridge]

im down to see an orcs green skin and know that hes about to 1 shot me with higher strength etc. we'll see how the devs decide to proceed

[bleak mural]

but then again who said they could use bows , and maybe dwaves are better at minning and crafting and elves better at bows , idk just spitballing here

[glacial bridge]

or w/e type of races and designs they decide to go with obviously

[bleak mural]

true

[verbal marsh]

I'd assume they're not coming anytime soon as they the class tab won't be added until later dev.

if at all.

[oblique wharf]

Implementing races isn't difficult. In any game using them it's a class-lite system

Y"ou get a minor buff and debuff and a situational skill most times.

[verbal marsh]

well human's are known to get an extra feat in dnd, so I'd assume you'd get half the perks or skills if you chose another race.

[bleak mural]

and no one said they HAD to give you bouns's , maybe they could just be a race

like a skin

[verbal marsh]

so if we're going down that line of thought @oblique wharf we can assume that.

[oblique wharf]

In a game like Dark and Darker, you don't get most the DnD benefits it's pulling from anyway, like languages and most proficiencies like history or survival.

[glacial bridge]

i just want as much customization as possible. Races, Talent Trees, Multiclassing, expanded Perks/Skills, Proficiencies/Specializations. give me it all

[bleak mural]

amen same here

[oblique wharf]

You're boxing them in creatively. They're already not pulling these stats 1 for 1 from DnD.

Otherwise rogues wouldn't automatically be assassins.

[verbal marsh]

nore are they feigning away from core dnd concepts as illustrated by them.

[oblique wharf]

Precisely, so they can take something like humans and instead of giving them DOUBLE the perks or resources, they can maybe have one more perk slot.

[verbal marsh]

rogues are not assassins they're rogues : P they do have lockpicking and pickpocket.

[oblique wharf]

Or maybe have a couple more attribute points to allocate.

The entire idea of humans in DnD is the all arounder.

A flexible jack of all trades race.

[verbal marsh]

So I'd assume you'd get a free perk or two from playing another race and lose 2 perk slots whenever they do add races.

[glacial bridge]

add in Bard, Artificer, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock

double the weapon-types that drop. dont overcomplicate the combat too much like a Mordhau clone but consider an alt-attack pattern so i have a little more aim

[oblique wharf]

The point I'm making is they have a ton of leeway to use creative license to balance it while making it themed similarly.

[stone dome]

This game has some fundamental issues it is going to have to nip in the bud if it wants to succeed for more than a few months imo.

The elephant in the room is simply the pvp mechanics feeling like they were designed in 2001 AND solo players queueing into groups. PVE focused games require a 'carrot on a stick' model of consistent content releases for pve players to not get bored; you can really only run a dungeon so many times before it starts to get stale. This is less of an issue for a game that focuses on PVP. Unfortunately the combat system currently is just... jank, in comparison to modern titles with similar combat mechanics; chiv, chiv 2, mordauh etc. You can claim that dark and darker's jank combat is part of the 'appeal' in a sorta retro sense I suppose. But that will lose you the pvp players pretty quickly imo.

[burnt nova]

I think a lot of players enjoy that it's not overly complicated combat like mordhau or chiv. It feels pretty smooth to me once I got the hang of it

[glacial bridge]

i dont mind the feel of the pvp. i just want more tools along the same vein

[exotic leaf]

Well, there isn't other medieval "Tarkov-like" game, chiv is 50v50 game, here if you fight with more of 3 people, you fighting 2 parties

[oblique wharf]

The combat system in nearly perfect the way it is.

[verbal marsh]

They could just polish current features and release game in a few months if they just wanted to cash grab tbh.

[oblique wharf]

It's extremely simple, freeing up focus on other aspects of the game.

I could see maybe adding a way to direct swings

[verbal marsh]

Game already has a solid 100+ hours worth of content for the avg user.

[manic quartz]

easy to learn hard to master type combat

[oblique wharf]

But just cleaning up hotboxes and making shields consist is all they really need

[glacial bridge]

100 is generous, but i cant lie that time flies. i hit 35 hours and still feel like im just scratching the surface

[burnt nova]

I currently like that the melee combat is more about footwork and aim than perfect parries and hitbox manipulation. It feels like a slower first person version of darkfall mixed with mortal online 2 a bit

[glacial bridge]

combat made me nostalgic for stuff like Kingsfield before Darksouls became the standard

[verbal marsh]

somehow the combat makes me nostalgic for ultime online lol

maybe its because I'm a wizard >.>

[glacial bridge]

the devs posted the games they played and were inspired by

Ultima Online, Everquest, Wow, D&D, Tarkov, Hunt:Showdown

so it makes sense to think UO

[verbal marsh]

only one i'm unfamiliar with is hunt shwdown

[stone dome]

unfortunately I find the combat overly simplistic with a relatively low skill ceiling. In a single day I was alrdy utilizing jank versions of drags, 2 hander kite into 180 attacks, and 360s for memes that actually work.

[glacial bridge]

Hunt is cowboys in Louisiana swamps. i like it a lot but ping/desync makes me rage

its an Extraction game

[eternal cypress]

i say keep the came simple and balanced

game

[verbal marsh]

yeah looking that the youtube trailer it looks good.

[burnt nova]

Skill ceiling for melee isn't insane but it's there I think that's part of the appeal for players who didn't get into chiv. Keep in my mind the game is more than just melee fights. It's a lot about outsmarting your opponent and utilizing your class well. Map knowledge etc.

[stone dome]

when the combat mechanics are too simple, you simply cant have solo players queueing into groups of 3 imo

[glacial bridge]

i think solo queue is a trap and will cause much worse problems for solo players than they have now

[verbal marsh]

chivalry doesn't have lewt

[stone dome]

. A friend and I came to this play test invited by a friend who has been playing for quite a while across more than one iteration of dark and darker. He invited us because we are fantastic fps and chiv/chiv 2/BR players. Within the first match we were alrdy doming the pve and player groups. By the end of the first day we were messing around with drags, 180 and 360 attacks with proficiency. The 'lack' of complexity/depth is a significant issue in the current system of solo queuers queueing into groups of 3. I see alot of people suggesting they have success as solo against groups. That might be the case against average pve players

[eternal cypress]

combat mechanics can be changed i mean just adding abunch of races and sub classes and choices seems silly

[verbal marsh]

another thing I didnt like about c2 was how the respawns work

i didn't enjoy that game much because of that.

[stone dome]

Unfortunately you get 2 or 3 good pvpers in a match and there simply is no "outsmarting". You can brute force everything with the right class comp , storm the room and overwhelm any solo players that don't immediately run before we get too close

[burnt nova]

Yeah you will die to 3 good players on most games. I'm all for raising the skill ceiling it just depends how they do it.

[manic quartz]

in chiv and mordhau 3 good pvpers will spank ass of solo player aswell

[verbal marsh]

They just need to balance out armor effectiveness, cant have 3 man archers just sitting and pelting people to point they cant be reached.

[stone dome]

100% false, you must not play many high lvl fps or even games like chiv, chiv 2, brs etc. Obviously definitions of 'good' vs 'great' matter and vary quite a bit depending on the person. But that being said, when mechanics are as simple as they are in dark and darker currently, a great player has no chance against 3 good players that know how to rush for instance. Now, you hypothetically thought experiment in chiv 2 mechanics into dark and darker.... a great player can absolutely wreck 3 good players.

now, im not suggesting a 1 to 1 copy of chiv 2 or any other game. But I do think they should consider improving hit detection and mechaincs like block/dodge/parry

[burnt nova]

Sorry I should have said great players. As you claim you guys are great players so to a best a 3 stack of great players such as yourselves they would need to be god tier.

Thought I was in general chat this whole tome

[manic quartz]

so 3 good players no so good apparently ?

[verbal marsh]

easier to solo then play good with a team lol

[stone dome]

that's the thing, when u have something this simplistic, no amount of 'god tier' gameplay is going to save you from hack and slash without additional outplay mechanics

[verbal marsh]

Most of my deaths were due to teamates

[burnt nova]

Only way you get 1v3ed in most games are

1. You're terrible
2. You fought a god
3. Very unlucky

[stone dome]

but i think you guys are alrdy focusing a bit too much on the hypotheticals i presented to try and explain issues of lacking a significant skill ceiling

[glacial bridge]

1v3s in dark and darker are easier than in most other games

[verbal marsh]

yeah and if portals remain the same its easier to extract solo lol

[burnt nova]

I mean I'm in agreement the skill ceiling isn't insane but there is more than just melee. Mages have a very high potential ceiling as do clerics and even rangers to an extent. We are just talking melee combat for the most part.

[unique crest]

melee combat you can juke attacks if you memorize the patterns of each weapon

[verbal marsh]

I still want a better parry mechanic

[stone dome]

100%

[unique crest]

no :I that ruins spacing

[verbal marsh]

the only thing I don't like about melee is shield parry

[unique crest]

shield could be better

[verbal marsh]

rogues have hide, barbarians have brute, fighters just suck.

[unique crest]

oi fighters can use a bow and main tank

[burnt nova]

I think a better parry wouldn't hurt anything but I hope they don't go full directional melee

[verbal marsh]

cough fighters just suck.

Its like the opposite of dnd, why play a fighter when you can play a ranger...

[unique crest]

because you can main tank and shoot a bow :I

[burnt nova]

Fighters have sprint and second wind which can be insane. The potential to kite better than a Ranger with your movement ability

[glacial bridge]

fighters biggest strength is they can use a bow and use sprint. Barbs are easy to manage but Fighters have a lot of tools

[unique crest]

and second wind

[burnt nova]

Second wind even comes back with camprlfires

[unique crest]

ever try to fight a fighter with sprint and second wind, combined with a cleric spamming heals and shield

you quite literally can't do anything

[verbal marsh]

and yet ranger does more dmg with a spear and most of the game involves preparation more then speed. oh and their bow is better...

[glacial bridge]

speed is by a large margin the best stat in the game. preparation is huge but dont ever diss on my boi speed

[verbal marsh]

what good is speed when you're taking a triple shot to the dome and leg?

by the time you reach a ranger wit hthat speed you'd be at 20% and one shot with their spear lol

if not simply trapped and shot like a stray dog.

[stone dome]

Sprint and heal are absolutely massive in this game.

[glacial bridge]

the whole dungeon is full of tight corners and darkness. if you try to push a large room or long hallway to a ranger then you deserve to die

one of our most successful team comps is Ranger/Fighter. i play lead as ranger and scout out the rooms. if someone tries to chase me they run head on with a fighter ready to demolish them

[verbal marsh]

I didnt bother with second wind this playtest on my fighter, sadly it seems like a core ability lol

[burnt nova]

Yeah second wind is required

[manic quartz]

speed is core ability for any melee

[verbal marsh]

I feel like fighter should start with camp instead of ranger also.

along with have the higher resourcefulness.

[glacial bridge]

camp fits ranger the most, if not him then it would fit barb more than a fighter

but 100%, buy 2 from the woodsman every chance you get as a fighter

[verbal marsh]

fits fighter more imo, always felt like rangers were anti fire lol

with their respect to dryads

[manic quartz]

mb instead of parry and blocking they will add some sidesteps animations with short range and mostly upper body movement for ppl without shields?

[verbal marsh]

i mean what is with you thiking it fits barb more then a fighter that is so left wing lol

[glacial bridge]

Rangers are in the wilderness, hunting for food and cooking it at an encampment. it completely fits their expertise

Barbarians are also outdoorsmen

[bitter stratus]

What does politics have to do with anything being discussed here????

Also Ranger is not a druid, theyre hunters/outdoorsmen who live off the land which means using fallen wood for fires.

[verbal marsh]

it is a figure of speech don't be a ninny...

[glacial bridge]

i think the common phrase would be 'left field' rather than left wing. no biggie i understood you :)

[bitter stratus]

^

[verbal marsh]

-.- wing is a reference to swinging aka punching aka southpaw aka not common.

[glacial bridge]

probably a regional thing. in the US left wing has a political basis and left field would be a baseball term for something unexpected

[verbal marsh]

your generation is just sensitive to bullshit tbh

[glacial bridge]

im 30 as fuck. dont start some shit you dont want

[pallid vapor]

Why is this guy so angry lmfao none of you even provoked him

[viral rune]

I think your vernacular was confusing, and you’re the one being sensitive about it

[verbal marsh]

xD tru

moving on

[glacial bridge]

yeah lets stick to game discussion

[viral rune]

Much respect though my guy

[oblique wharf]

I'm curious how their shapeshifting druid will fit into the game

Just be killing skellies and a wild bear appears

[pallid vapor]

Yeah I’m super curious to see nature magic/shapeshifting. Hopefully you can specialize in one or the other. Can’t wait for skill trees

[viral rune]

With first person, I hope they adjust the camera angle for where your head is located in the new form

[oblique wharf]

Do we know anything about what changes are being tested in february?

[pallid vapor]

I’m pretty sure bard is confirmed? Don’t quote me

[oblique wharf]

Nope too late already quoting you to everyone I know

[bitter stratus]

I imagine if they go with the usual assortment of shapes theyll be limited in duration and/or uses and certain forms wont be able to access certain areas due to size.

They said they dont have a public list of things coming but that Bard is the next class being added. They didnt give a timeframe on when so I wouldnt expect it next playtest.

[glacial bridge]

i dont have proof, but ive heard that Bard is confirmed as the next class and Monk would be after that

in addition, they have hinted at Paladin, Druid, Warlock, Artificer

[viral rune]

Man if bard is released in Feb I’m going to nude run and just echo the halls with lyre and feet slaps

[pallid vapor]

Which is super exciting cause bard and monk are the 2 classes I’m most excited to try lol

[oblique wharf]

Monk would be so funny to play

[verbal marsh]

looking at the qna briefly I saw spells and scrolls mentioned, so if bard becomes available I expect that to be a focus.

[glacial bridge]

my brother doesnt like bards, but im very excited for it

bard + pvp has such great potential

[oblique wharf]

I imagine Bard is gonna end up with the utility I wish Rogue had

[verbal marsh]

so it may be that wizards are not the only one using spells

[oblique wharf]

Little direct combat, a lot of buffing, debuffing, and working around NPC and map mechanics

[wicked tree]

dont forget the manual music that the devs stated they wanted

[viral rune]

I appreciate how the devs seem to be sticking to dungeons and dragons classes, the familiarity is so satisfying

[glacial bridge]

i hope Rogue talents lean more into Utility/tools instead of Assassination

[wicked tree]

bards can use magic too

[pallid vapor]

I’m expecting bard to get some kind of tumble or dodge roll as a skill. And of course songs to buff teams damage/defense/healing like a spell caster would.

[verbal marsh]

rogues are known to have use magical item skill as well

[viral rune]

Yeah I imagine bards would be lesser heart buff monkeys

With bows

[wicked tree]

i hope bards have the irresistible dance spell

[viral rune]

*lesser heal buff monkeys

[oblique wharf]

They already gave Cleric inspiration, so I'm assuming it will be less stat driven combat stims

[glacial bridge]

Lesser Heal, Haste, Horn of Thunder, Courage. Bards could be so sick for multiplayer

[verbal marsh]

wands and scrolls sounds like a very interesting addition, I wonder what type of wands there will be hrm.

[pallid vapor]

Song of rest so your team heals more with campfires

[oblique wharf]

I would love a multi use aura to build based on instrument play time as an 'attacl' mechanic

[manic quartz]

i wish his songs will be annoying enough even with out other positive/negative effects

[wicked tree]

or song of rest just acts like a campfire but on the move

[oblique wharf]

Almost like Sona from League of Legends

[stone dome]

bro wtf is wrong with you hahahahaha

[oblique wharf]

A song for speed, a song for damage, a song for healing/shields

[viral rune]

What about bards being able to provoke/peacemake npcs?

[wicked tree]

Song of pacifism

[oblique wharf]

Bards get charm person in DnD don't they?

[wicked tree]

no one can fight

[viral rune]

Yeah I’m trying to think of previous bard abilities that would be thematic without being too overpowered

[pallid vapor]

Ah soothing lullaby. Aoe stop monsters from aggro or attacking for 10 seconds

[oblique wharf]

Barb already has his aoe fear

[glacial bridge]

oh god... bards popping pacifism as they run through a boss room. opening the door and dipping then all the monsters attack pvp gankers chasing

[verbal marsh]

yeah maybe they'll have a way to disguise as your teammate lol

[oblique wharf]

I feel like they'd need to differentiate any kind of anti combat spell

[glacial bridge]

dont get me excited to troll lobbies guys

[viral rune]

That is such a bard thing to do

[wicked tree]

this is why i want song of pacifism so bad

use it to prevent being attacked while you open portals

[glacial bridge]

Horn of Thunder would be sick too. you hear a Bard 3 rooms over just blasting people with their sonic damage

[verbal marsh]

I don't imagine them getting that song thats like lv 10 also lol

[viral rune]

I want to give the devs money to hire more devs to make this all a reality

[wicked tree]

honestly im super excited to see how the game develops

[oblique wharf]

Keep the team smaller.

[wicked tree]

dont they have like 22 people working on the team now

[oblique wharf]

Every time a game gets money bombed they get overwhelmed with new hiring and training

and it actually makes the game take forever

And then it launches half baked

Let it happen naturally

[viral rune]

I get that, but these devs do sound experienced enough with game development to see those challenges coming and know how not to make AAA mistakes

[oblique wharf]

THESE devs

[viral rune]

But also it’s risky af and if the safest play is to allow them more time, I’d rather that too

[pallid vapor]

They have a pretty good sized team and don’t think they are hiring, and have said the game is fully funded and they don’t need/want financial support. All we can do is wait and let them do their thing

[oblique wharf]

These devs are together because they agree on their design philosophy

[viral rune]

Yeah true, too many cooks

[oblique wharf]

They are actually hiring, but not on the scale millions of dollars would make them think about doing

Let's 'em find like minded individuals who aren't just seeing dollar signs

[viral rune]

That’s good, I’m not saying hire directors, but juniors devs to knock out time-consuming timetables

[half kelp]

Hey! I made a suggestion for a 3 level drow dungeon, let me know what your guys think!

"Hello, I've really enjoyed dark and darker, and look forward to the future smile
This would be a ton of work, but adding a Drow/Dark Elf themed dungeon.
1st level being Duerger and Thralls with the odd dark elf
2n level containing primarily Dark elfs
3rd level/inferno populated by driders, demons, and Drow Sorcerers or gods

Thank you for the oppurtunity to play your game, It's been a blast"

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[pallid vapor]

An underdark dungeon would be very nice.

[verbal marsh]

I think so as well.

[pallid vapor]

Maybe umbrahulks as bosses

[oblique wharf]

I would be happy if they pretty much stole literally any of the thematic and design from Champions of Norrath

[viral rune]

Absolutely, even if they had to justify DLC to make it happen

Though since the jump to B2 doesn’t follow a theme with B1, I couldn’t see why they’d have to DLC it

[glacial bridge]

i feel like Underdark needs to be a later terrain theme

give us some Goblins/Kobolds/Orcs first, maybe some Gnolls. Then when we get really good at the game then you go all Dark and Scorpions

[oblique wharf]

I would enjoy seeing thematically logical dungeon progression

And having a rotation of available maps and they design more of them throughout the games lifecycle

[viral rune]

As long as they stay dark

[crisp phoenix]

made an suggistion my self

Add identification scrolls what they will do is to use on items above green to be able to see stats.Reason behind this is to "force" players to bring items with them if they dont have scrolls back.this will lead to players have more items in their invitory then just gold items. And lead to play more safe or argo play depending what items you get in fear of losing a potentially great item.

feel this will add more exictement in the fights

but then agian im a pvper

[oblique wharf]

If there is a mechanic I hate more than aything else in video games in general

[dreamy iris]

does anyone else get Diablo2 vibes from this game

[oblique wharf]

It's the item identification crap in games like PoE

All you are doing is gating me from efficiently sorting my loot. There's better ways to encourage PVP

[glacial bridge]

i think Diablo 1 vibes more, but mostly D&D with some Kingsfield

[wicked tree]

i agree with this

[oblique wharf]

Like having enchantment shrines that can buff an item in the map

[wicked tree]

funny thing is the character in kingsfield attacks faster then the d&d characters

[oblique wharf]

So you have a really good weapon you wanna keep using, fight everyone else for the single use enchantment shrine in the middle of the map

[glacial bridge]

To those who havent played since its not common
(Kingsfield = Dark Souls before they added dodge roll)

[wicked tree]

https://youtu.be/GRn_gfltbhw?list=PLMHCGC8qP5422kYz3kVp8e2NiFfeMCA3m

[oblique wharf]

IronPineapple played them

Good videos

[wicked tree]

the music was so good in kingsfield

[viral rune]

I was finding a ton of parallels to Ultima Online

[verbal marsh]

same

[pallid vapor]

Item identification is already slated to be, if you read the knowledge skill it says it increases item identification speed

[wicked tree]

Slate you ever try to beat kingsfield as a mage ?

[pallid vapor]

I wonder how both identifying and repairing will work

[glacial bridge]

i played the PS1 Kingsfield for years and never got close. then I revisited it after i loved DS1 and really enjoyed it

[dreamy iris]

I hope the secondary stats are cleaned up a bit.

[glacial bridge]

i didnt do much on the PS2 version, just the old janky one :D

[viral rune]

Someone mentioned item durability and I don’t know how I feel about that. Unless you go all-out and add durability-damage bonuses to weapon type and durability-increase bonuses to armor

[wicked tree]

well holy shit some one actually attempted it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19pw7sQE-q4

magic only run

[glacial bridge]

lol

[dreamy iris]

durability doesn’t really fit this style of game

[oblique wharf]

There was a repair tab in the merchant

[wicked tree]

looks at the repair in the blacksmith shop

[oblique wharf]

So yeah

Durability 100% gonna be there

[glacial bridge]

i think durability could work depending on future changes. if we look at it from the lense of now then it doesnt really make sense

[dreamy iris]

We’re in alpha so it’s not like it’ll 100% stay either

[viral rune]

That was my feeling, but also being able to sledgehammer through some cleric’s plate and shield would feel really satisfying

[oblique wharf]

It would give blocking an actual function

[wicked tree]

Oh god barbarian doing more damage to equipment and mage with the rust spell D:

[oblique wharf]

I don't wanna run my blade endlessly against a cleric shield if it's gonna break my weapon

[glacial bridge]

a barbarian running in and chopping at a shield until it breaks sounds fun to me. a rogue using finesse to avoid armor plates and deal direct damage also could work

imagine a fighter blocking your magic missiles, but his shield breaks on #8 and hes just fucked after that

[viral rune]

Unless either weapon or shield has a durability bonus, I’d imagine they’d break around the same time, but I also agree with your sentiment that this game doesn’t need a durability mechanic in that state

[oblique wharf]

I would hope durability is exclusively to burn gold.

[viral rune]

The more I think about it the more I like it though

You could carry repair kits

[oblique wharf]

The game needs a way for good players to still sink cash

Otherwise the economy gets overwhelmed

[glacial bridge]

i dont like durability in pve, but it has a lot of potential for 'memorable moments' in pvp which could be very exciting

[oblique wharf]

And it's not an end game answer, but it helps while they figure out what that end game sink is

[split vessel]

I think shields need to break

[oblique wharf]

TBH I guarantee if shields break with any noticeable frequency, people will stop using them.

Having a shield breaking weapon as a counter, good. Shields just breaking under most use cases, bad.

[glacial sphinx]

I think I'd prefer other goldsinks than durability. Feels mostly tedious having to not forget to repair before every map, and if durability damage is enough that stuff actually break in a single map I think its gnna be annoying

[viral rune]

Or carry a more durable shield, or another shield

[glacial bridge]

maybe you would want to combo something like a Maul + a Barbarian perk to try and smash shields, but keep them mostly reliable

that way when you spot the big hammer, you know not to fool around but it isnt an epidemic of broken defenses

[viral rune]

God as if barbs weren’t terrifying enough

Make caltrops a thing everyone can use

[split vessel]

A wooden shield should break with a similar relativity as a cask does to weapons (or maybe twice as many strikes), and maybe a metal shield would be impervious but reduce movement more…

[glacial bridge]

i also want to see more Pavises used as door holds and what not

[viral rune]

I definitely think they’d need to introduce more shields

[glacial bridge]

then fighters/barbarians are trying to smash it out of the way

[dreamy iris]

Like 99% of gear will eventually become unused due to poor stat randomization. So I’m picturing a crap ton of broken gear being unused and I’m imagining broken gear will be either unsellable to vendors or it’ll sell for a lot less then when non damaged. So if that’s the case should we talk about also adding a salvage tab where we can destroy items for materials that can be used for crafting purposes? like what if we went more in-depth with professions? for example you salvage a damaged cloth chest and receive 1-3 cloth fragments, now you can gather up cloth fragments + another material and go to a surgeon and craft basic bandages

[glacial bridge]

i like crafting, but I would want it to be White-Tier stuff. magic properties could possibly be enchanted later but not inherent

that way, its common to put stuff in your stash that you want as a starter loadout

focus more on the preferred item types beyond default grays they give

[oblique wharf]

This seems silly. Wooden shields in general, both in games and real life, do not break this easily at all. They would be just making shields worthless for the few people who still use them as is.

[dreamy iris]

Yeah I think if they expanded with professions more it should be kept minimal/simple. Like my example above making bandages at surgeons would be strictly the grey/white bandages. Green+ would be either shops or finding them in games. This should go towards any other professions that get added. if alchemy gets added same case

[glacial bridge]

i do think for mechanics and balance, speed versus durability are the main factors to weigh against eachother

[pallid vapor]

This 100000%. I hate there being 5 different damage increasing stats on gear. It took me the entire playtest to actually learn the difference between them all lmao. Additional damage, weapon damage, true damage, physical power and strength.

[oblique wharf]

This makes sense for most things, but shields already have a balance that works around that: Size vs speed. The hitbox of the shield, which must be aimed, will change how slow it makes you.

[pallid vapor]

And also not knowing if any of the magical increasing stats gave a bonus to your melee hits. Like does “1 true magic damage” give my melee hits some magic damage? Would really like a clear cut glossary to explain everything in detail

[oblique wharf]

A big tower shield would make blocking extremely easy, but would likely encumber you immensely. Vs a buckler being skill intensive, but very light.

[verbal marsh]

All I know is the parry system needs works D:

[glacial bridge]

thats fair. and although you may be factually correct, I would like to see something that a Metal buckler doesnt break but a Wooden Tower Shield could be demolished with enough force

[oblique wharf]

We could also allow certain weapons to still deal reduced damage through shields, like hammers because the force carries through compared to a strike from a short sword.

If you've ever hit a tough surface with a metal pipe without gloves or any handle wrap, it hurts like hell.

[verbal marsh]

barbs already have increased stagger against shields

[oblique wharf]

Same concept applied.

[verbal marsh]

Not certain but I think different weapons also have varying impact power as well.

[glacial bridge]

I understand wanting dark/invis vision, but the game is called Dark and Darker

[split vessel]

Wooden casks also don’t break in real life nor do chests. And it isn’t silly - wooden shields in real life DO experience wear, a two handed battle axe would shatter a wooden shield into splinters.

[pallid vapor]

If they add dwarves I wonder if they’ll have dark vision

[glacial bridge]

ide rather people be throwing torches without their weapons at the ready momentarily than popping their sight boost and spam chopping

[pallid vapor]

Yeah would be a nightmare for balancing but it’s such a key feature for dwarves in d&d lol. I doubt they would add it. If they did it would definitely take a whole skill slot and wouldn’t just let you see perfectly in dark

[glacial bridge]

add in the fact that dwarves have a smaller hitbox and good health in D&D. it just seems too strong in a pvp game

[pallid vapor]

Yeah but say goodbye to your headshot bonus which is pretty major. And say hello to people head shotting you easier

[glacial bridge]

a shield also covers more of your body

[pallid vapor]

Yeah I really want to play a dwarf tank lol.

[glacial bridge]

i love dwarf tanks too :D

[oblique wharf]

You are completely ignoring half my comment.

[glacial bridge]

they could do some stuff where Halfling ranger cant use a longbow, but its still gonna be a nightmare of FPS players in full speed mode

[pallid vapor]

Lmaooo halfling rogues gonna be so infuriating

[glacial bridge]

i think they need to stick to human sized races and not do custom sizes. atleast not soon

[oblique wharf]

I do think races with smaller hitboxes is a nightmare to balance.

[pallid vapor]

Yeah. Definitely curious to see where they land on that. Would like to see it at least tested to see how it feels and how the community reacts

[glacial bridge]

it would also be super funny to see a halfling/dwarf spam jumping to see through the peek hole of a door

[oblique wharf]

they alreayd nerf skeleton skin because it gives a similar kind of advantage

Having -20 armor because you're harder to distinguish from idle NPCs helps, but it still feels unfair to die because you thought that fighter was an NPC and you didn't feel the need to predict it's behavior

[glacial bridge]

alright im sold. let me play a goblin Rogue. im down to be awful to deal with

on that topic though, since this is a full pvp game I wouldnt mind being evil races as well

[oblique wharf]

I see no reason to exclude them.

[glacial bridge]

Tieflings, Drow, Githyanki, Orcs, Lizardfolk... its all good to me

[dreamy iris]

I dont think races will work long term

the hit boxes is really tricky for this type of game

if done wrong everyone will be forced to play what’s meta

[glacial bridge]

theyre also not hard-bound to any D&D rules. it could just be custom skins but on a Humanoid model

[harsh wedge]

Has there been any news of the game releasing something to play earlier or will it probably be februari and that's just it?

[glacial bridge]

Feb 6th as far as i know

[oblique wharf]

So far no early access has been confirmed.

[harsh wedge]

allright fair enough

[oblique wharf]

They are CONSIDERING pre launch support, and that is all that was said.

[glacial bridge]

the plan was Q2 EA 2023, Q4 Release 2023

[harsh wedge]

define pre launch support ?

[oblique wharf]

They said kickstarter as an example

No mention of EA I can find

If anyone finds a source I'd happily correct myself

I want EA more than anything

[granite plinth]

money

[harsh wedge]

well i guess then we have more then enough time...

to read that faq thing

[dreamy iris]

February will come fast. We’re only a month away

[granite plinth]

is the game coming out on february?

[dreamy iris]

no the next play test iirc

[granite plinth]

oh

cool

what day?

[twin thorn]

i think early access is like Q2

[dreamy iris]

first week of February 4th-6th

[granite plinth]

ok

[split vessel]

The latter half of your comment was objectively false and ignorant. Do you feel ignored?

[glacial bridge]

oh I cant post pictures in here

"yes, we still have a lot of stuff we want to implement before we would feel comfortable offering an early access, but hopefully we can get one out early next year"

[dreamy iris]

has anyone heard the possibility of a 4th floor for next play test?

[glacial bridge]

no so hard date

[harsh wedge]

they should add a bonus room where you can be safe for a few seconds like the call of duty zomby pack and punch room

[glacial bridge]

i think next play test they will add in floor 1 (33 players) but idk when it would be complete

[bitter thicket]

Barbarian class is the most weak class

[harsh wedge]

yeai heard that aswell, it's supposed to be in a forest or something and then you can get into the dungeon wich is lvl 2

lol rrrrr if i play any class weakest class

[dreamy iris]

forest type floor would be dope actually

[glacial bridge]

Barbarian probably should be the weakest class. if he has a team (or enemies) who allow him to apply his strengths then he wins, but he should be the easiest kit to shut down

[harsh wedge]

well it's level 1 also so the beast will be much easier there haha

[oblique wharf]

None of it was objectively false, and I was referring to my reference to common video game mechanics. I said both real life AND video games, and you ignored the game aspect entirely; arguably the more relevant half of the example.

[harsh wedge]

barb is alot of hp so if noobs against noobs barb comes out on top often haha he's very outplayable though

[twin thorn]

good barbs have a lot of speed and agility and arent that easily outplayable

[glacial bridge]

every D&D campaign ive ever played has been the Barbarian carrying the useless Wizard etc until hes high enough to become a god

hes the early game hero which is fine

[twin thorn]

the bad ones with an attack speed of once per 10 seconds are a different story 😛

[bitter thicket]

Ranger is weak and would be good to see if ranger got a buff

[glacial bridge]

Ranger is the strongest class and it isnt close

[dreamy iris]

I think rogue is strongest

solo atleast

[oblique wharf]

Solo rogue is so fun

[glacial bridge]

i main rogue so i wont argue against him being crazy. but under the current game Ranger has more tools and better team contribution

[twin thorn]

idk about strongest but ranger is def top 3 imo, doesn't need a buff

[oblique wharf]

Don't gotta fight 1v3, you can just hit and run, harvest people who have to be left behind and extract from the shadows.

[glacial bridge]

the thing is, Ranger can set up the most map control. he can choose to start a 1v3 fight and either win or just leave.

Ranger only dies when they make a mistake

[narrow oriole]

Any Bozo with a shield can block a ranger's shots and just push them into a corner lol

[oblique wharf]

Ranger is easy to corner. If you walk up to a ranger across an open room you're fighting a ranger wrong.

[dreamy iris]

maybe I just bumped into a lot of bad rangers because as a cleric solo I had the easiest time against rangers lol

[glacial bridge]

bruh. your shield doesnt cover your whole character. if you step on a bear trap then you are 100% dead. a ranger can just walk away if he doesnt have a secured victory

[harsh wedge]

rogue isn't strongest

[glacial bridge]

Rangers are very popular so theres a ton of people who dont utilize his tools, theres a skill ceiling also

[oblique wharf]

Rogues and wizards both exist to couner rangers, and the other classes can split and corner or distract while rogue or wizard is doing what they need to do.

[harsh wedge]

i mained rogue and he only has potential 1vs 2 if you are against good players

1vs3 is almost guaranteed loss

[dreamy iris]

I day from a solo cleric perspective, rogues we’re a nightmare for me

[narrow oriole]

Shield doesn't need to cover your whole character 100% of the time, and there's no room big enough to make a ranger win a fight instantly + you can't walk away.

Any class can just walk away if they don't have a secured victory, that's basic strategy from every class

[glacial bridge]

what makes you feel entitled to even be in the same room as a Ranger?

[harsh wedge]

bear trap times are too high yea

[glacial bridge]

he fucked up by letting you in already

[harsh wedge]

the trap should shine a bit so you notice it

[oblique wharf]

Rangers are like Batman. "With enough prep time . . ." argument only works if you're under 0 pressure.

circle, NPCs, other groups, OTHER RANGERS

[glacial bridge]

go into high roller with 12 traps, they place in 2 seconds and you have open doors. if someone goes in your space just close a door you are entirely unchasable

[narrow oriole]

You know that people can jump over bear traps in doorways, right?

[harsh wedge]

there should be maximum amounts

[dreamy iris]

A lot of hunters didn’t know how to use traps properly.

[glacial bridge]

i already said earlier i main a rogue, i just understand from playing a Ranger how insane they are

yes, ive jumped over bear traps and killed decent rangers

[narrow oriole]

You're overhyping ranger by a lot

[glacial bridge]

but i have 10 steps of stealth, if they decided to stick around and find out, that is a mistake

Wizards are the other class that have the highest skill ceilings with Rangers

they are the best counter, but rangers equally can counter Wizards

[finite tide]

Yeah I got killed by a spear trap inside a health shrine wtf was that

[oblique wharf]

Duck

[burnt nova]

People def overhyped Ranger. That being said most rangers don't use trap expert perk. Literally knocks off 2 seconds from trap placement and allows you to get them down faster than most people expected.

[narrow oriole]

this isn't some 1v1 arena, lol. Every class has a win condition for fights that lets then 1v3 if done

[glacial bridge]

Rangers also under utilize darkness. part of the reason you can freely leave is because you can run around with your fists out and they have to have a torch or they are toast

[oblique wharf]

Yeah I think most players in general don't put out lights enough

They gotta choose between seeing you and fighting you

[burnt nova]

Always have that torch in my hot bar

[narrow oriole]

That's an unexperiened playerbase thing, rather than a ranger thing

[burnt nova]

You know i got that Thang on me

[oblique wharf]

They throw a torch, pick it up

[glacial bridge]

im not saying that Rangers are even anything special to an unexperienced player. im saying their kit is the strongest of the 6 in the current game

[narrow oriole]

I'm saying you are wrong because you keep overbloating what ranger can do with what all classes can do

[burnt nova]

All sorts of counter play in this game. Ranger places trap you throw torch. Ranger picks it up but you still a brief second where you can see the trap and know how to proceed. But Ranger can play mind games. I would put a trap down and disarm it and put another right in front of it. People would try to jump my trap and land right in my second

[oblique wharf]

Why

Would you disarm a trap

Ever

Just put another down and save the 2 seconds

[glacial bridge]

you think a shield is going to make any level of difference so I think your opinion is invalid.

[oblique wharf]

Now they can't jump over the first one

[burnt nova]

So I can jump over it and push them

Gives me room to move

[oblique wharf]

Why would a ranger push them?

[narrow oriole]

Do... do you not know how shields work in Dark and Darker?

[burnt nova]

When they run

[viral rune]

Everybody’s got a plan til they get punched in the mouth

[oblique wharf]

Let them run

You have the advantage at range

You WANT them to run

[glacial bridge]

do you? ill put an easy 4 arrows in your completely exposed legs and effortlessly create distance as you hobble around slowly

[narrow oriole]

Bro... so you don't know how crouch-blocking works but you still want to complain about ranger?

[oblique wharf]

Getting kills is not the objective, surviving and extracting is. Kills means less pressure and more loot, but at the end of the day there is not infinite healing but you DO have infinite arrows

[glacial bridge]

whos complaining? I love playing my ranger and playing against people like you lmao

[viral rune]

Yea infinite ammo is gonna get nerfed imo

[glacial bridge]

This thread started because someone said Rangers need a buff.

[oblique wharf]

I think just turning off the auto reload from spells is good.

[burnt nova]

Not when they have a cleric healing them. Now I have free reign to play the door and potentially secure the kill

[narrow oriole]

You literally called ranger the best class in the game like 9 times 💀

Then when I pointed out clear examples of why you are wrong, you just went "NUH UH" lol

[oblique wharf]

Clerics don't get infinite heals

[burnt nova]

Some people play for fights. Everyone has a different objective

[oblique wharf]

Also I hate how everyone is always like, 'Yes, there is a counter to you, a single person, and that counter is multiple people"

[glacial bridge]

this is where our convo ends. I dont think you are arguing in bad faith. You just arent capable of comprehending

[viral rune]

🍿🍿🍿

[oblique wharf]

Like yeah, everyone knows if you have a cleric healing you while we're fighting AND I'm solo that's gonna suck

[narrow oriole]

The argument of a losing person is "haha ur so dumb u can't understand" I.E. what you're doing 💀

if you even understood what you were talking about, you'd be able to explain why you're correct, but you can't because you're factually incorrect

[oblique wharf]

We're assuming roughly equal grounds unless otherwise specified in these hypotheticals

No one said that?

Did you read our conversation?

[burnt nova]

Cleric doesn't lose every 1v1 lol

[oblique wharf]

Also yeah Cleric doesn't lose 1v1s often anyway

[burnt nova]

1v1s are situational every class has a chance

[glacial bridge]

its the fact that i brought up creating distance and movespeed several times. your braindead answer is that you are going to crouch walk with a heavy shield to deal with that. If you cant see where your logic immediately fails then theres no point in trying to convince you.

[narrow oriole]

"Nuh uh. Shield no work cause I walk away and u have to keep shielding 24/7 no matter what cause I said so so im right"

Don't you understand how inane that argument is?

[oblique wharf]

To be fair, I will say anyone who is keeping their weapons out while chasing a ranger who put their bow away is dumb.

[viral rune]

I mean it’s all moot anyway, as you’re both debating hypotheticals on a game in its alpha stage, in a suggestion-discussion board

[oblique wharf]

No reason to be running at like -30 speed if your enemy can't hit you

[viral rune]

So bards with ranged weapons; although it is canon, would it too powerful in this game?

[oblique wharf]

Nah

[burnt nova]

Alot of people are really bad at this game. I still believe there is a lot to learn that we haven't scratched the surface of since we can only play 1 week every two months

[oblique wharf]

Bards are supposed to be in their team buffing, ranged is a must

[viral rune]

But don’t give their skill tree options to spec into ranged imo

[oblique wharf]

Battlebards just sounds cool and now I wanna be one

[viral rune]

If a bard wants that, hypothetically he could pick up ranger subclass, as devs alluded to subclasses already

[glacial bridge]

subclasses/multiclassing would be amazing

[viral rune]

Bard/Barb keeps me up at night

[oblique wharf]

A BARDbarian? XD

[viral rune]

Would a Barb/Bard have a fear with longer duration, then more powerful battle chants?

[oblique wharf]

Just has an axe lute

[viral rune]

smash in doors and wipe out a 3 man

Nah, real bards always spec voice as instrument

But I like the imagery

[oblique wharf]

I imagine the sounds of a guitar being smashed on a stage

But with every hit on anything

Too scared to tell the bard the music sucks lol

[burnt nova]

What does a board use traditionally

Bard*

[oblique wharf]

I would assume a lute, but I don't know if they have a standard instrument

[viral rune]

In dungeons & dragons they’d have a list you could choose from (appropriate to time period)

But going voice meant you never were without your instrument, and it was always at the ready

(Unless you get muted)

But ultima online didn’t have a voice option, you had drums, lyre, lute, flute, and tambourine

And if you had someone with every instrument playing at the same time, you’d hear the complete piece, not just one instrument’s contribution

[strong goblet]

Loots, harps, horns, drums

A small flute could be a one handed option

[oblique wharf]

DUAL WIELDING BARD

I vote for a Hurdygurdy option

[crisp kernel]

Brave brave sir Robin

couple of coconuts

[north snow]

Dual wielding drum stucks just running down halls bangin on barrels lmao

[steady flint]

Honestly I want the bard to be a class that has an insane skill cieling

like imagine if he actually had to play a song note for note, and the more accurate he was the more effective his spells were

[strong goblet]

I want a bard class that can only use like daggers and instruments

[steady flint]

Yeah I feel like the bard class will have to be a buff based class that's awful for solo play

One recommendation that made me laugh was that the bard should be able to seduce zombies, and I honestly would love that just because its hilarious

[tender remnant]

I think the Bard should be a Buff & Debuffer. Able to use Daggers, Rapiers and Crossbows

[oblique wharf]

In all honesty it will likely be ranged magic based attacks using instruments and songs to flavor the magic with aura buffs and debuffs on the side

I feel like implementing the things we wanna see would be very difficult

[steady flint]

I agree with daggers, but I feel like he should only be able to use weak bows & short range melee. It wouldn't make much sense for a bard to be able to whip out a sword and kick a swordsmans ass too easily

[tender remnant]

That's lazy talk

[oblique wharf]

It's realistic talk.

They have less than 30 people on their whole team.

[strong goblet]

Only daggers imo

[steady flint]

I agree in all honesty. I imagine it will be similar to wizard, but instead of a rev up time, it'll be a quick song that gets played

[oblique wharf]

If this were post launch, then maybe. But they're in the middle of making the entire game.

[steady flint]

Also I believe they have 26 people on the team atm, but they said they're worried about hiring more people because if their dev team grows too fast then they'll implode

[oblique wharf]

Precisely.

[tender remnant]

Hmm.. Let's see. Making a new class... Take the existing Rouge or Cleric. Modifie looks, magical animations and walla, got the base foundation of a Bard. Things don't have to be made from scratched, they can be modified by duplicating existing content and heavily modify to the point where it's new and unique.

[steady flint]

Btw it was 20 when they started making the game, so they already expanded by ~30%

Quick question before yall are at eachothers throats

do either of yall know programming @tender remnant @oblique wharf

[tender remnant]

There are complete games out there made by a single person. I have faith they can make another class

[steady flint]

bruh please answer the question tho, cause it changes how I describe what yall are saying

[oblique wharf]

No one is saying they can't make another class, but that expectations like real time song playing note by note is a bit much.

[tender remnant]

I'm not asking nor want that

[steady flint]

Yeah yall just miscommunicated then @tender remnant @oblique wharf

cause Aleph was talking about the idea I said

[oblique wharf]

Someone was, and that's part of who I was talking to. And then you jumped in out of nowhere.

Making them a dagger or conventional weapon class is simple, but they already said it will be an instrument based class.

[steady flint]

What I wonder about is how they're adding new classes to the game. I want to know if they have a dev GUI for making new classes (the best thing they could have), of if they're trying to program each one as an entirely seperate thing

[oblique wharf]

So how they are going to make that work without making it out of place is the question.

[steady flint]

Could you point me to where to find that? Im curious

[oblique wharf]

The QnA

[tender remnant]

Flute dagger. Problem solved

[oblique wharf]

They mentioned that they needed to make playing instruments fun for the bard class and that it's a design challenge

[steady flint]

What they'd said was
"Q: What is the next class going to be?
A: Bard is the next target. However it will probably be too hard to include them in the next playtest. The instrument should be fun for the bard and everyone else.
"

[oblique wharf]

Which is fair, if you just played a lute all the time and just held left click the whole game

[steady flint]

I don't think they outright said his main tool is the instrument, but I could be missing something

yall wanna hop in a vc? It'll make this discussion a lot easier

[oblique wharf]

That's fair, but his first language also isn't English so I am interpreting a little.

I'm actually at work RN lol

[steady flint]

oof

[tender remnant]

Nobody wants to do button mashing guitar heros style music play. Should just be casting a spell with a single button, but flavors it with musical audio and animations

[steady flint]

honestly I think that sounds kinda funny. I want it to be like an option in settings

[oblique wharf]

That's definitely a solution, but that just sounds like a WoW support class.

[wary shell]

You telling me you dont wanna style on fools while hitting a sick lick?

[steady flint]

They might make it like the flute thing from zelda

[oblique wharf]

A single button press being a buff or debuff on a CD being the whole identity of a class seems boring

[tender remnant]

Option? Sure. More work though. Rather just be a single button like all the other casters or its going to make then NOT fun to play by most

[oblique wharf]

At least wizards have different styles of combat and do direct forms of damage with their button presses

Although I would argue Wizards are still pretty boring currently

[tender remnant]

What? I found the Wizards fun and the only combo I needed was I had to stay still for magic missile to shoot all six shots

[oblique wharf]

That's kind of my point

[steady flint]

I imagine that they will either make it like the wizard and about as powerful, but then everyone will just think its mid, or they will give it a system like the ocarina from legend of zelda and much more powerful cause you need to memorize

[tender remnant]

Wizard just needs more spell variety

[oblique wharf]

You just hold a button and then let go for every spell, some you gotta stop moving

With the threat of melee mostly removed it's kind of bland

At least ranger has an in combat reload mechanic and has a harder time aiming at a range, for example

[tender remnant]

Magic Missile was the only spell you had to stay still for.. all others, you could move

[oblique wharf]

And traps

[wary shell]

Who says they cant have normal spell casting, then have another ability that lets them jam out and give haste to their whole party?

[steady flint]

I honestly feel like wizard should get a rework. He feels too simple for using spells. I think it'd be cool if it were like an osu level were you had to move your mouse to certain areas and click in a certain order to get a specific spell

Like up, down, right & down, left could be fireball, etc etc

[oblique wharf]

I honestly think wizard needs spell mechanic variety

[tender remnant]

Does raise the skill gap, but lowers the fun

[wary shell]

Wizard is pretty input intensive if you are being optimal

Relative to the other classes of course

[oblique wharf]

Channels, instant casts, long casts, prep spells like traps that have a long set time so you have to plan ahead

[tender remnant]

Classes right now are about positioning and timing. That's how it should be

[steady flint]

You're right, but I feel like it needs a bit more * spice *

something to add more depth

[oblique wharf]

Exactly

[steady flint]

I won't say I have all the answers, cause I don't, but it feels like it needs a bit more

[tender remnant]

Have to learn spells over time would be a good start?

[oblique wharf]

Maybe can charge spells for increased effects?

Moving lowers charge time?

Or

I mean

Increases

[steady flint]

Idk, I'm worried about it taking a tarkov route where the more you grind the game, the more like 2% boosts to skills you get.

[wary shell]

I think just more spell choices, and there shouldnt be such easy no brainer selections when it comes to spells

Same goes for cleric

[steady flint]

This could be a good start! Instead of moving cancelling a spell, it could set you back so you have to charge the spell back up

[tender remnant]

As to why wipes are a thing when that inevitable happens in all full loot extraction games

[oblique wharf]

Also casting in DnD often requires mats

Could toy with that

[tender remnant]

This is like DnD, but isn't DnD

[oblique wharf]

That's what I mean

It's using it for inspiration

[tender remnant]

And most D&D games ignore materials.. too tedious to deal with

[oblique wharf]

I don't wanna have to gather moss in the dungeon every game if I wanna cast

But it could be used in a less tedious way

[steady flint]

@tender remnant @oblique wharf do either of yall know programming or tried making a game?

[oblique wharf]

I have never made a game, I'm familiar with basic programming

[tender remnant]

Yes! Holly cow do people ask that so often

[steady flint]

Aight, it helps for context

wanted to make sure yall knew how plausible an idea was in a game

but I feel like going a material route for spells is a bad idea

If we wanna actually finish this convo we should decide about what were talking about too, so what are we talking about now? Wizards? Bards? Making the system for spells more complex? How bards should be implemented?

[oblique wharf]

They're already introducing scrolls, same idea but baked into a class. Could augment spells to cause different effects.

[tender remnant]

Right. Cause that adds more. Adding more in a game too quickly, creates bugs. But if the Spell thing needs to become more complex.. Maybe they start with fewer spells and have to buy them over time or something.. But really, I don't want some classes to be more fun than others..

[steady flint]

.

[tender remnant]

Bards need to be a Buff and Debuffer. Clerics should be more healing, Bards should have few to none healing spells. Bards would cast magic through a focus, such as an instrument like the Cleric does

Bards should have a regular melee weapon too, just like both the Cleric and Wizard does

[steady flint]

Hmm, Ima address these 1 by 1. I agree that bards should buff & debuff, but I think they should be able to give players a "second wind" where they temporarily recover like 30% hp

[tender remnant]

Bards in DnD do use other things than just instruments as weapons. Even if this game is only like DnD.. it makes sense to follow agreed upon lore based on other games. A instrument should NOT be their only weapon

[steady flint]

thoughts on this @tender remnant

[tender remnant]

I disagree. The 2nd Wind is a fighter staple ability. Bards should have their own unique one

[steady flint]

Yeah I agree, I more just think they should be able to have some degree of minor healing

Onto the next point then

I think clerics are already in a good spot for healing, why do you think they need more?

[tender remnant]

They have Buffers that should go to the Bard class.. need to replace those with something else

[steady flint]

Honestly I agree with that as well. Once a bard class is added, they should get most of the buffs from cleric. Though I think it might be better if those are replaced with more spells to deal with undead as well as healing, instead of just way more healing options

[tender remnant]

Exactly. Or one for Fiends, cause you know they'll add those and Clerics like to deal with fiends as well generally speaking

[steady flint]

Yeah thats also really accurate

damn why didnt i do this sooner

this is a way better way of discussing ideas

I think the final thing is about how bard can pvp

I honestly feel like they should be similar to archer in hp and melee dmg, but they should only be allowed to use 1 handed weapons & no bows

[tender remnant]

One hands, yes. But I'd be okay with crossbow... long reload times, only get one shot, better make it count. Combat positioning for them should be middle or back of the line

[steady flint]

I didn't use bows/crossbows at all this alpha test cause I don't like the feel of them, so I just am gonna trust your judgement and agree

anyway im gonna go die now

[tender remnant]

Bards in DnD have always been sort of the switcher class. They can do both melee and range, but its best they don't get hit too much, so they can offer support to those who can excel better at one or the other

[glacial bridge]

i dont like how Longbow had much less projectile drop than crossbows

[simple bluff]

kinda true if they have the same arrow speed

then its correct

slower means gravity will take it down before reaching

[azure sandal]

I can already barely loot before zone closes in, aight gonna catch me having shit luck and traveling cross map

[pearl obsidian]

What do you think guys if we do a community charity for dark and darker server they will be turn on the game for us 🧐

[pallid vapor]

Stop. Let the devs work on their game. It’s not a money issue.

[pearl obsidian]

hm i think it is

other games so much bigger games. and smaller dev team and they runnin the server bcs they get information for the players

[sullen gazelle]

oh fk I forgot that I also wanted to mention in my suggestion that in higher difficultly there should be higher zone damage but im sure they already have that in mind

[gray vessel]

I think crossbows should have less drop but more spread

[random ravine]

pretty sure bolts are heavier than arrows

and that bolts have faster travel speed

[sour token]

What does it mean when a suggestion is marked green?

[split vessel]

it seems to indicate a large consensus and probably gets more attention from devs.

[sour token]

I figured it was either that, or it was "greenlit," probably the former though. Thanks!

[split vessel]

My assumption is it meets two criteria: X% of upvotes, and X votes

[viral rune]

I need the devs to leak some Bard stuff 🫦

[glacial bridge]

@hardy owl i just wanna play as a mosquito

[hardy owl]

Haha Cheesing dungeon mechanics the other way I see...excellent

[craggy coyote]

Bard is probably going to be able to use weapons, similar to rogue weapons, but a little worse at them

Maybe a bit like wizard in that there's going to be mainhand instruments and offhand instruments

[loud matrix]

Bard will most likely be support, given that it's their usual role in tabletop.
Campfire specific abilities, skills focused on party buffs sounds like the most likely playstyle.

Rogue weaponry does make sense as well, since they usually overlap in proficiency.

[loud matrix]

Would you get to respawn if you're just a spider until the urn is destroyed?

[vale elbow]

hope they put bard close to baldurs gate would be insane

[hardy owl]

That's an interesting question, not sure how hard would it be to code.

[inland pelican]

I imagine illusionary tricks as we talked about yesterday, taking the sound from an area around you and projecting it to a room or two in the direction you are facing

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[loud matrix]

Ghost sound, minor image, disguise self and similar spells are also on the bard spell list.

[inland pelican]

Disguise self I would be okay with making you look like a highlighted mob

[vagrant stone]

yeah i agre

i would prefer it the opposite way

[glacial bridge]

i dont even mind longbows drop, it just feels odd that i shoot a crossbow and it drops to the floor

Recurve and Survival bow are fine

[vagrant stone]

yeah I agree

only thing is that variable drop makes it harder to use different kinds of bows, have to like warm up with a new bow type to learn the drop off

so i'm not a huge fan of that but you know i don't mind that much

the bigger issue to me is the travel time of crossbow in that you could aim at a guys head but then he could move out of the way before the bolt hits him

[livid finch]

Got 126 Hours as just Barb. My feedback would be to lower weapon damage bonus from +10 to +5, give barbs a perk that increases all healing done to perked barb is increased by 15%, reduce the attack pattern of the horseman's axe from 3 to 2. Keep a similar attack pattern to base 2 hand axe, make the cooldown of reckless attack somewhere between 5-10 seconds after attack use is used, increase cooldown of fear aoe by 5 more seconds, also the +10 str for short duration is useless. turn it into gain X str after each monster kill per dungeon run. permanent. doesn't have to be much. Could be like .25-.33 str per kill, increase 2 hand perk bonus from 10% to 15%, increase no chest piece damage bonus from 5% to 10%, give double axe a higher overall damage cap. it's so slow. at least give it the damage to back up only needing to hit once. doesn't have to be much. like 3-4 dmg.

[gray vessel]

stop being so right

[hollow flicker]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

I would just make protection spell and potion work against all damage types...I don't see any reason why not

Do we really need another potion type cluttering up our inventories and stashes? Yet another potion to drink before a fight?

[sudden fractal]

#d-and-d-suggestions message
does no one rly think this would be a cool idea? the spell is currently useless as u can just use a torch

of course with a few nerfs to wizards current spells as their current state is a bit op

[hollow flicker]

I didn't even try the spell tbh because yeah, who can afford a spell slot for some weak utility?

I don't think there should be useless spells / abilities so yeah I'm in favor of turning it into a mild blind

[sudden fractal]

idk i feel like a massive AOE stun against AI is quite useful if your not going for PVP

[sudden fractal]

and the blind i was thinking more of lets say in tarkov someone is shining a flashlight into your eyes rather than a flashbang explosion

[hollow flicker]

yeah idk how people would receive flashbangs in this game

but it's alpha and it's the time to try things

but it couldn't be a level 1 spell anymore that's for sure

[sudden fractal]

lmao yeah i dont think anyone wants a flashbang

[sudden fractal]

yeah 100%, maybe have only 3 of them and make the cast rly long

[hollow flicker]

i would like it to be a mild blind / disorient and still have a lingering effect to replace torches in dark areas

[sudden fractal]

tier 3 spell

[hollow flicker]

QOL utility spells are good and bring flavor, but that shouldn't ONLY do that in a competititve pvp game

well presumably it would be a wizard's defensive spell

so a long cast time would defeat the purpose

[sudden fractal]

but then again, in scenarios like these i wonder, why should i bother with utility if i can just straight up kill my opponent? which is why maybe it should be a tier 1 spell. otherwise it just wont get used

ngl i would happily give up a slot for a little radial blind to get myself out of a tough spot

[hollow flicker]

well it could be a globe of light spell that when it lands it emits a pulse that would blind anyone looking at it

so you could basically lob it like a grenade into an enemy team and buy yourself time

[sudden fractal]

hmmmm idk, that sounds a bit broken to me

[hollow flicker]

or at your feet and look away

[sudden fractal]

was thinking something like "you shall not pass" lord of the rings scene lol

large flash of light

skilled players will just learn to look away from it

[hollow flicker]

as they should but if you toss it at your feet even the experienced people won't always be able to react

[sudden fractal]

isnt that a bad thing?

[hollow flicker]

but after the blind it would still light up the room so you can light up your enemies at a distance , MAYBE blind them

no?

[sudden fractal]

that just sounds broken

[hollow flicker]

well the devil is in the details if it's a mild blind, or if it's a stronger blind that lasts 0.2 seconds

i think tweaking the numbers it won't be broken

idk

[sudden fractal]

i just dont think it should be a ranged attack

it should emit from the player

[hollow flicker]

well so far the pvp abilities require aim in this game

and i think that's a good thing

nice to have control so you don't blind your teammates

[sudden fractal]

yeah but imagine being able to blind an enemy from around a corner

itd just turn into valorant

[sudden fractal]

thats why, wizard stays behind, so your teammates have their backs toward you and they dont get blinded

[hollow flicker]

i mean if you want blinds in the game that's gonna be something new in the game that people are gonna complain about

but it won't 'turn it into valorant' lol

anyway

the devs gonna do whatever they want

[sudden fractal]

u know what i mean, having the ability to affect players without being in any danger is instantly something OP

[hollow flicker]

Fireball literally kills people around corners

[sudden fractal]

u still have to show urself

you gotta peak

with what your suggesting, there is no peek, u just shoot the blind at a wall and boom

[hollow flicker]

I never suggested a homing projectile or a blind that goes around corners like Phoenix

[sudden fractal]

if you can throw a ball that emits light, then thats exactly what ur suggesting

how far does the ball travel?

[hollow flicker]

a fireball lets say that instead of damage will blind people if they don't look away, and then it emits light in the area to retain the original QOL aspect of it

If it were me i'd make it like throwing the oil lanters

just like a lob projectile

[sudden fractal]

nah thatd be broken i think

[hollow flicker]

Okay bro

good night

[sudden fractal]

alright lol

does anyone think any class rn is particularly OP? because i think other than maybe wizard ignite spell everything is pretty much perfectly balanced

[soft relic]

Any class is OP once it gets geared. Wizard, Ranger and Rogue felt ridiculous once geared.

[sudden fractal]

so it is balanced then

[soft relic]

Ranged was a bit OP in general. Geared or not.

No reason for people to be hitting as hard as a 2 handed weapon from across a hallway with no real drawbacks. Ranged was generally the meta for PvP, and made cheesing PvE much easier as well. But that's normal for games.

[sudden fractal]

thats why u close the distance and wait for them to reload

[soft relic]

Sounds good on paper

Doesn't work well in practice unless people are in low end gear, or terrible shots.

[sudden fractal]

maybe once blocking gets more refined

[bitter stratus]

Not every class gets shields

[sudden fractal]

true, but also not every class has ranged attacks

[soft relic]

Yeah. The game felt better at low end gear to be honest. Once you got to high end gear and had rangers hitting fighters in purple or better plate for 70% in one shot, it was crazy.

[sudden fractal]

so its even i think

[soft relic]

It's kind of hard to discuss balance because it depended so much on what level of gear you're talking about, really.

[sudden fractal]

thats the way its supposed to be tbf

if you have good better gear, u should expect to out perform everyone no matter the class

unless they are simply better at the game than u lol

[soft relic]

Eh, not quite what I mean

[sudden fractal]

ive seen countless videos on yt that go something along the lines of "(INSERT CLASS NAME) IS OP AND THIS IS WHY"

[soft relic]

I mean if everyone is in greys/greens, some classes look really good. When you move up to purples/legendaries, the scaling changes and some classes totally break

[sudden fractal]

and for all 6 classes lol

[soft relic]

For example, rogue. Low gear it was usable, but not really that great. High gear, it would 2 shot anyone.

[bitter stratus]

Barbarian was balanced out by a lack of ranged options, lower movement speed and lack of shields.

Ranged (or really, just bows) are where the real question of balance comes in down the road. Personally I would prefer if a white longbow wasnt doing as much damage as a Green falchion given there are numerous benefits to being at range while the person with that falchion is diving up close where they're going toe to toe with fighters and barbarians and buffed clerics.

[sudden fractal]

i think thats a testament to how well the game is balanced

[soft relic]

Cleric buffs mattered a ton at low gear, but were weaker than wizard buffs at high gear

[sudden fractal]

u think so?

[soft relic]

Definitely.

[sudden fractal]

tbf i see where ur coming from, ignite increases damage wayyyy too much

[soft relic]

20 physical damage shield didn't scale well, 3 to str/agi/will is good at low gear, but didn't matter as much at high gear. Divine weapon was always good. But haste/invis from wizard just kept getting stronger and stronger as your gear increased.

[vagrant stone]

the fact that wizard can apply buffs to himself is pretty strong

[soft relic]

Move speed was one of the most important things in the game.

[bitter stratus]

the shield would be more impactful if it also blocked magical damage so you could at least soak most of a fireballs splash

[sudden fractal]

do cleric spells not increase in power with gear stats?

[soft relic]

I am fairly certain it was just their duration that increased. It is possible the shield value increased, but I 2 shot a fighter in purple plate with that shield and a potion of protection up, and I was 2 shotting fighters in purple plate without those up, so it didn't feel like it mattered much.

[sudden fractal]

hmmm maybe that should be a good change then. for cleric spells effectiveness to increase with magic power level

[soft relic]

Yeah. Only reason I haven't suggested it is that I don't know for sure if they do or don't.

It was kind of hard to test the shield for how much damage it could absorb with gear scaling

[gray vessel]

@vagrant stone Sugesstion isn't really for asking questions imo. You're doing it wrong. Its for suggesting something as a potential change to the game.

[sudden fractal]

but then, if lets say your a cleric with gear powerful enough to increase someones str/agi/will by lets say 10, wouldnt that be ridiculously op?

[soft relic]

It would be, yeah.

[sudden fractal]

buffing low gear players to be on par with high gear players

and buffing high gear players to be virtually un killable

[soft relic]

But once you hit a certain gear threshold, most PvP was 1-2 shots, so the current 3 str/agi/will didn't matter at all. Not sure how they'd fix that one. Probably just make the shield scale with will value if it doesn't already, because at base it was like a grey potion of protection.

[bitter stratus]

A lot of your responses seem to be 'Just do X" which rely on best case scenarios. There is no band-aid solution to everything being suggestion and you arent going to run into wizards who miss with fireballs that often or rangers who are shit at aiming.

[sudden fractal]

man cant wait til they refine blocking with weapons so its viable during pvp. that could seriously change the pace of cqb

[bitter stratus]

This isnt about a lack of experience, this is about having enough experience to run into players who arent bad

[vagrant stone]

sorry I was just really interested in what the general consensus is (for the average player) right now, I'll stop

[soft relic]

I had fun blocking with bucklers. But it felt like it didn't matter if I blocked something like an arming sword with my cleric, because even if I started swinging my mace immediately after the block, they'd get a follow up attack and trade with me.

Heaters and round shields slowed my move speed too much to be worth trying in PvP

[bitter stratus]

also as has always been the case, you cant balance the game around the top percentile of players or you quickly alienate the rest of the community

[sudden fractal]

yeah after getting a successful block off the enemy should get a slight debuff of something, like speed or a really brief stun

and, in order to counteract that, swings should be cancellable like spells can

[soft relic]

As I recall, blocking reset their attack combo back to square one, but if they had a faster weapon than you it kinda didn't matter, unless you were just trying to reset something like a castillon dagger to avoid giving it the 3rd hit damage bonus.

Pretty niche situation

[inland pelican]

Time to bump my monk :p please don't hate meh, just ideas I would like the devil to consider

#d-and-d-suggestions message

[sudden fractal]

castillion dagger has a 3rd hit damage bonus?

[soft relic]

Both offhand daggers (castillon and stiletto) had a damage bonus on the 3rd hit animation.

[sudden fractal]

i had no clue

i saw a suggestion earlier that suggested exactly that

[soft relic]

A pretty good one, too. Messing around on the test dummy, I hit 137, 137, 173 with a castillon.

[sudden fractal]

for dmg to increase the more combo hits you pull off

[soft relic]

So it's something like a 26% damage increase on the third hit

I had a barbarian 1 shot my cleric that was in full purple gear with some +armor and +hp rolls. He had a green axe. Kinda hurt to see that. 😄

But overall, barb seemed like a 1 hit wonder. Generally predictable, but if it did land that one hit...

[sudden fractal]

if u can just outrun a barb, you win

catch him out in the open

every class has strengths and weaknesses

[soft relic]

He drank an invis potion. I never saw it coming, haha. Barbarian/rogue multiclass

[sudden fractal]

lets say a wizard vs barb,

if out in an open room, where barb has no range and wizard can easily outrun, then wizard would generally win

but the barb can always take cover and try bait out the wizards spells

and on the contrary, the wizard has to know when to pull of his spells so he doesnt waste them

theres countless outplay scenarios

god i love that about this game hahaha

i always thought cleric and wizard had the highest learning curve

especially wizard, because of his wide range of spells in his arsenal and lack of defense

u rly gotta outplay

omg i completely forgot about iron will

100%? does it completely negate magic damage? or just half it?

huh

interesting

[patent sandal]

From watching someone playing with their stats, it's roughly 15%.

[sudden fractal]

oh thats not that much

[vagrant stone]

you also can't balance just for the casual player, say a casual player has trouble with wizard, the answer isn't just to give the wizard a bunch of broken options, because you'll mess up the top player base

[bitter stratus]

That goes without saying.

Hence why I didnt bother mentioning it

[sudden fractal]

did you guys know you can chain lightning through dead bodies to players?

[sudden fractal]

u think this is broken or should stay in the game?

and is it unintentional or intended