#Expedition 33
boreal latch
split atlas
I think the main good argument against it, is if it starts replacing meaningful work that artist actually do
naive plover
yeah, usually the primary source of outrage is fear of human artists not getting to do their art any more
split atlas
Like, if you were gonna use a Unreal Engine standard texture as a placeholder and instead you made something with AI instead, you didn't really do anything much different at the end of the day.
boreal latch
I think the main good argument against it, is if it starts replacing meaningful ...
Yes and that’s one I agree with.
naive plover
in a more just world these tools would be used as force multipliers for human artists, like how Larian recently described they could use AI to reshape armor for all the different fantasy species without wasting a human's time, enabling the humans to design more armor
boreal latch
Like, if you were gonna use a Unreal Engine standard texture as a placeholder an...
This is my take, yeah
naive plover
(whether you believe that's all they're using it for, therein lies the "debate")
boreal latch
Making a whole game or book or movie or TV commercial or print ad or whatever entirely with AI is indeed just lazy crap.
split atlas
I think what would change my mind, is if we see the industry hiring less of a certain type of artist.
Like, let's say a company now needs 3 less people that make textures because AI is a thing, I'm not sure I like that.
But let's say, instead a company has the same number of artists but manage to get the game out 6 months earlier and start on their next project, well that's another matter entirely...
Admittedly that will depend from company to company and it's how we should judge it IMO
boreal latch
(whether you *believe* that's all they're using it for, therein lies the "debate...
I can see and understand the skepticism there.
Although nobody in these debates seems terribly concerned about AI assisted code
Just visual media
Probably because it’s by its nature much more visible and easier to parse and discuss, I suppose
split atlas
Yeah, it's not even the most efficent application for AI
naive plover
and I do very much wish people who were angry about this would actually say out loud that they're basing their anger on this skepticism, because otherwise they do often just sound like they're making up convenient scapegoats
split atlas
The 3 main cateogies that will definitely be in trouble are localisation, music (that is 80% math, and AI is already really good at it because of that), and coding.
boreal latch
Yeah. I would be much more receptive and understanding if they were more to the point and less hyperbolic
naive plover
I think it's also because no one has these hard to quantify warm-and-fuzzy feelings about code. It's even explicitly considered good coding practice to not get emotionally attached to any particular code, because that often gets in the way of fixing real issues with that code. Especially issues introduced by the world changing around it, even when the code was flawless back when it was written.
and because the AI coding tools are pretty obviously only good at the most boring, uninteresting parts of code that we kinda would like to automate a little more
they can't really help us when it comes to talking to the product manager about what the requirements are
boreal latch
Yeah. Music worries me, both for consumers and for artists. They are indeed pretty good at it and it’ll be kinda annoying if it gets to the point where they’re indistinguishable from human music. =/
Heck, procedurally generated music was already a genre that kicked off in the early 2010s and that was before this new era of AI technology.
naive plover
they're also rubbish at developing code that is in any way remotely novel or bespoke; it's essentially the 2020s version of copy-pasting from StackOverflow, and so it only helps with programs that a thousand people have written before you
I feel like for translation/localization, it's not really a new issue. We've had machine translation for a very long time, and we've had to tell people not to over-trust it for a very long time, for pretty much the exact same reasons an LLM-based translation should not be over-trusted.
IMO music and (visual) art are the only domains where we've really crossed some new and morally complex lines with the recent LLM boom
split atlas
Idk, the translation has gotten pretty damn good on those llm
And pretty seamless too
At least in the Italian and English, can't be sure in other languages since I don't speak them
Prior to the ai boom it was definitely not good enough to use outside of the novelty
naive plover
there's definitely a change in degree, it's harder to notice the flaws with an AI TL, but I've yet to hear of any novel problems there that I wasn't already dealing with decades ago when I did fan translation and some people were overly reliant on machine translations 
like how the "AI girlfriend" problem is absolutely not new though it probably will get worse
split atlas
I think that the quality improving is in on itself notable, a lot of people didn't use it because it was shit
naive plover
ok we're probably agreeing then
let's say, I think there are novel philosophical moral questions to debate when it comes to AI generated music and (visual) art
boreal latch
Yeah. There’s that issue where people saw the products in 2018/2019/2020, saw they weren’t very good, and then dismissed them out of hand ever since.
naive plover
and all the other problems are a "more of the same" situation, which is possibly enough to still need more countermeasures, and maybe novel countermeasures in some cases
pliant swan
in a more just world these tools would be used as force multipliers for human ar...
Yep, Blizzard has said the same.
"AI for Fitting/Adjustment: Blizzard has used automated tools and discussed using AI to help fit armor to different races (like Dracthyr) and adjust helmet clipping, reducing manual artist work and giving them more time to do the actual creative work"
boreal latch
Yeah and that kind of AI-assisted work seems fair game to me too. It’s functionally the same sort of thing as using Photoshop tools to get something done faster.
split atlas
That said, I actually don't trust Blizzard as far as I can throw them
That sounds fine though
pliant swan
considering they're owned by Microsoft who are on a big AI push, yeah, they probably have more of it than we care for. The one they specified there is definitely stuff I'd be okay with, the rest not so much
boreal latch
I do draw the line at “here’s the raw AI output, it’s the final product, enjoy” since in any sort of commercial context that’s just definitely not acceptable IMO. If you’re making a product, put some actual work into it.
naive plover
I'm still waiting for a commercial entity with a real reputation trying to pull that stunt
boreal latch
I think Coca-Cola did exactly that?
pliant swan
For example: Microsoft laid off part of the blizz team that took care of interacting with social media (making some memes and stuff, posts promoting events etc), which also includes player facing pages on the blizzard websites.
SOme of the recent info for the new xpac coming out in march, the initial version of the page that got published was littered with terrible info, some of it being completely wrong lore wise and some feeling very AI-y generated. Probably both AI and outsourced.
split atlas
I think that when it's the people working that want access to the tool to make their job better, it's probably fine 90% of the time.
I worry when it'll be the administrative side of the business that goes "why do we have all of these artists we can probably fire half of them and get the others to do the work faster with mid journey" that we will start to see the real fucked shit, and that is yet to come.
pliant swan
I think Coca-Cola did exactly that?
They did, and made an AI generated "behind the scenes to show it's not ai generated, for realz"
boreal latch
Supposedly this
I haven’t delved too deeply into this situation, but I could absolutely believe it’s all AI.
naive plover
I think that when it's the people working that want access to the tool to make t...
and at a very high level, I don't think it's significantly different from when the administrative side goes "why do we have all these programmers in-house, we can just pay offshore to do it"
boreal latch
They did, _and_ made an AI generated "behind the scenes to show it's not ai gene...
Eugh. I agree that this sort of thing is unacceptable. Coca Cola can afford to make a real ad and they wouldn’t have any difficulties with doing so.
split atlas
It's also kind of funny that Ai generated stuff does have a style you can pick up on once you see enough of it, which on paper like, it shouldn't, it should be able to emulate whatever,but even when it tries it still can't shake off the markings of it completely.
naive plover
I can't find it online (how!?) but this stuff always reminds me of an ancient IBM ad where all the execs are sitting in a boardroom, and on the table is a giant rock with a sword in it, and they say "it's the mythical cost-cutting sword" but no one can figure out how to get it out of the rock
boreal latch
You can get around that with enough model tweaks, but yeah. It mostly has that touch of hyperrealism to it.
pliant swan
naive plover
the irony here is that getting rid of that "style" requires deep breath ✨ EFFORT ✨
so it's honestly not even an AI style so much as it is a "lazy use of AI" style
split atlas
Now I am waiting for the industry to get meta enough for a game to release in AI slop artstyle but that is completely handcrafted.
boreal latch
Speaking of, Disney just put out a thing that I thought at first was AI, but apparently it isn’t
naive plover
oh there is absolutely going to be a genuinely artistic project where the artist uses AI slop to make a point
like when the MCU had the "Secret Invasion" series use some (pre-LLM?) gen AI effects in the opening because the uncanny results were exactly what they wanted
(does anyone but me still remember that? 
)
boreal latch
Speaking of, Disney just put out a thing that I thought at first was AI, but app...
#nonmlp-media-news message I put it here since I wasn’t sure where else it would best fit
pliant swan
(does anyone but me still remember that? <:ppenk:681838745611141137>)
The title screen, wasn't it?
boreal latch
Yeah, it was the introduction
pliant swan
boreal latch
And I thought it was literally AI?
pliant swan
I believe so
boreal latch
But yeah, that odd appearance was precisely the point
And that’s one of the few cases where I’m like, “okay, well played, that works”
Doing that whole sequence would’ve taken a bunch of work anyway
naive plover
amusing in retrospect: even when I was a kid contemplating making my own video games, I had the conscious idea of using text-to-speech as part of making more dynamic NPCs without an infinite VA budget
dire shoal
Sandfall Interactive made one of the most beautiful works of art I've ever experienced. It's just not the company people need to be pointing a finger at in this debate. It's like when they called My Little Pony misogynist because they showed Big Macintosh a lot during Hearts As Strong as Horses. Like, come on.
twilit dew
Famitsu asks 191 Japanese developers and celebrities their Game of the Year, and lo and behold, J'RPG Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 wins out | GamesRadar+ https://share.google/zZF57EuuoNYZQNbqw
pliant swan
She continued, "a lot of times, we didn't know what we didn't know. There are some things that [other] people wouldn't even think about, but for us we can just [say], 'Yeah, why not?' and challenge each other." Svedberg-Yen explains she "never really played videogames" and instead took inspiration from the likes of TV series and books. "I love science-fiction and fantasy epics which have massive, immersive worlds and vibrant societies, so I took a lot of that and put that into the backdrop of the game." She explains, "I didn't think of it as writing an RPG. I thought of it almost like writing an HBO drama."
pliant swan
naive plover
you should not be explaining this stuff to a non-player
ok that ending caught me off guard
pliant swan
Yeah, this guy's endings are always great 
Almost always something that leads to a "what the fu-"
dire shoal
ok that ending caught me off guard
lol same
split atlas
pliant swan
pliant swan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtrwpziEhOo
Mildly act 1 spoilery
pliant swan
The algorithm feeds me more e33 videos of people playing/finishing the game because of course I'm watching them. More than anything in the endings, though, it's the ending song "Au lendemains non écrits" (to the unwritten tomorrows) that really wrecks me and just brings me to tears. I know it's about ||grief, about how the tomorrows of the person who is gone will no longer be written, and I am in no way in this situation - instead, it makes me emotional because I am so thankful that I have a loving partner that I am writing tomorrows with, and that seems to make me overwhelmingly emotional||
A fan translation of the lyrics
pliant swan
tight ferry
Something about low settings on steam deck made his hair white
Also I just spent an hour trying to figure out parries on like the third battle on the continent
pliant swan
Was it the Chromatic Lancer?
pliant swan
Welcome to the 'elite' mobs 🤣
pliant swan
tight ferry
I DID IT
pliant swan
tight ferry
||Just defeated Jar, my first nevron||
pliant swan
||actually all the things you've been fighting so far are nevrons||
naive plover
||tbf it's really hard to tell what the scope of "nevron" is for a while||
tight ferry
I also beat the final boss of the meadows
I’m 10 hours in and have no idea what to expect, all I know is I’m excited
pliant swan
🇫🇷 
pliant swan
pliant swan
dire shoal
Damn
pliant swan
shockingly, I wasn't able to find anything on derpibooru for e33. Then again i haven't browser that in ages so i dunno if there's any other website that gets more updates. Just googling found this and not much else
pliant swan
pliant swan
last heron
Good lord
pliant swan
It gets worse the longer you look
pliant swan
pliant swan
Since it is the 33rd of december, I'm on a "react to vie a t'aimer" video kick. So far, this is my favorite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KNtgt1W5OQ
Best comment:
"WHAT WAS THAT?!"
'That was Victor Borba'
pliant swan
pliant swan
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zCTg7oD_pPY okay this is hilarious 
pliant swan
Interesting. I've been watching videos of people reacting to E33 music (une vie a t'aimer, especially). Went to Lorien Testard's channel and the Sandfall channel to see which track has the most listens. Despite all the praise and reacts it gets, une vie a t'aimer is not #1. It's a solid #2 though
(without looking, guess which one has the most)
split atlas
Alicia is the obvious answer
I think it's the name
Wait is that the name of the login screen track?
fierce galleon
my wild guess is Duelleste theme 
pliant swan
Both wrong!
Top is actually Lumière (the dim dim da) track
Une Vie a t'aimer has 12 million views on lorien's channel, but only 2.5ish on sandfall page.
Lumiere has 19 million on Lorien's, and another 12 million on sandfall's
Alicia's at about a combined 10 mill
I do find it surprising, I expected Alicia to be higher
split atlas
Makes sense
pliant swan
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ko5JtsnDa2k that ending
pliant swan
"If Elden Ring was like E33". Accurate ending.
pliant swan
pliant swan
I realize now that whenever people do reactions to the end of act 2, it's always in english... and I played the entire game in French so now I'm trying to compare it
||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFs83A46CUc|| spoilers, obviously. Overall it's the same but there's some slight wording changes here and there
twilit dew
pliant swan
"Sandfall Interactive’s Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 has officially set a new world record with 436 Game of the Year awards, dethroning the previous champion Elden Ring"
pliant swan
pliant swan
Using my meme pass for absolute perfection:
pliant swan
extremely spoilery: Behind the scenes of the scene before the ||Renoir fight||. Really interesting seeing the mocap acting
dire shoal
They can tell an entire story with only their eyes
naive plover
all this footage of them mocapping on literal phones really makes you wonder if CGI movies are getting their money's worth with fancier setups
pliant swan
I mean, from what that avatar 3 corridor crew video suggested, the cameras for face tracking there are essentially two gopro-like cameras
pliant swan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4jn6gjpbYI
Very interesting analysis! Though he doesn't listen fully throughout (or rather he's edited it in a way that the full song is cut in some places)
twilit dew
pliant swan
pliant swan
@naive plover https://www.kkinstagram.com/p/DT1hGZmjpwS/ I just learned about this too
pliant swan
