Gun Discussion

[stable temple]

I think this is a better venue

@hidden drum @grim path @livid monolith @distant whale let’s move here

[sharp geyser]

I'm glad I live in a country where very few people own guns

[hidden drum]

ill just write my personal stance

[livid monolith]

Im glad i live in a country where i can defend myself from an attacker even when im out numbered and lack the strength to fight them

[grim path]

I have no opinion on the gun matter tbh

[hidden drum]

a tool that is made with the intent to be used for killing is participating in the act of killing

[void basin]

Hip hip horray for no school shootings!

impl Wah for Calio ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) I'm glad I live in a country where very few people own guns

[stable temple]

How can an inanimate object participate or not participate

[grim path]

School shootings aren't caused by guns, they're caused by shooters

[void basin]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-68432923 oh

Well it seems to be a first

[distant whale]

Memory safety is a skill issue

[hidden drum]

for example: school shootings would not exist without guns. and school knifings are significantly less deadly and ive yet to hear of one

[grim path]

Let's ban paper because you can cut a person with it

And paper cuts hurt

[stable temple]

Guns are not as mechanically complex as you would think

[livid monolith]

Didn't the UK have a mass knifing that got like 50 people??

[distant whale]

Paper's primary purpose is not to kill

[hidden drum]

it has a purpose apart from killing

guns singular purpose is being used to murder ppl

[distant whale]

The same goes for a knife, which (sharp enough) can be used as a weapon, but who's primary purpose is cooking and eating

[hidden drum]

knifes have a purpose in the kitchen, guns dont

[stable hamlet]

the day mass paperings become a thing we can consider regulating paper like that

[void basin]

Brb using a gun to cut my meat

Speykious (he/him) [S Y N C] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) The same goes for a knife, which (sharp enough) can be used as a weapon, but who's primary purpose i…

[stable temple]

killing isn’t necessarily immoral

[distant whale]

...Can we just not go there and say that killing is bad? This is opening a third can of worms

Why are you even going there in the first place?

[hidden drum]

i have certainly not heard of it but that could ofc still happen. shitty people will always be around to kill, but guns make this task many many times easier, and once again dont have a purpose apart from it

[grim path]

To be fair, we are discussing a thing that can kill

[hidden drum]

but school shootings are

[livid monolith]

The point of Guns is leveling the force power structure.

A 70 year old grandma with a gun suddenly can kill just as much as a 25 year old man with no gun

[grim path]

And self-defense sometimes requires to kill the attacker

[distant whale]

Yes, but you shouldn't need to defend killing for that to be the case

A knife can kill yet I am perfectly fine with knives being allowed

[hidden drum]

and if you disagree then this is discussion is worthless because there is a 0% chance our axioms will ever overlap enough to agree

[grim path]

And my relative uses a gun to hunt for birds

[hidden drum]

thats still killing, isnt it

[distant whale]

yup

[stable hamlet]

I mean: we can just look at the actual numbers and find that countries with gun regulations tend to have significantly fewer gun deaths than those without

[livid monolith]

The colt revolver was literally nicknamed "The great equalizer" because for the first time it didn't take extreme skill/strength to be fairly deadly.

[sharp geyser]

I mean
You can surely make a case for it. "What if you could travel in time to kill hitler" type of stuff

[void basin]

THERES THE HITLER MENTION

impl Wah for Calio ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) I mean
You can surely make a case for it. "What if you could travel in time to kill hitler" type of …

Took what

10 minutes

Well done!

[distant whale]

I didn't say it was bad in all situations, just that it's a can of worms to open that debate

[grim path]

No people get hurt by this (by the gun, I mean)

[sharp geyser]

ok that's fair

[distant whale]

And we shouldn't need to go there in the first place

[void basin]

I am going to open up another can of worms and say "should we be killing birds?"

buj [vi/vim] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) No people get hurt by this (by the gun, I mean)

[hidden drum]

i find this way of "ending arguments" is super unproductive.

history exists

we can use it

[void basin]

Oh im not trying to end an argument

Daniella [TudbuT] (jan Danijela) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) i find this way of "ending arguments" is super unproductive.

[distant whale]

And to be honest, we can have that debate on its own without talking about guns being allowed for citizens

[hidden drum]

(oh sorry, its just that many people say things like "hitler mentioned, debate over and i win")

[void basin]

(Ah yeah I get you)

Daniella [TudbuT] (jan Danijela) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) (oh sorry, its just that many people say things like "hitler mentioned, debate over and i win")

[hidden drum]

(no)

[distant whale]

It is my belief that any given nation/country should have proper laws in place such that you don't need to give your citizens a tool that is meant solely for killing

[hidden drum]

^

[livid monolith]

And the numbers have shown there's no direct correlation besides a general decrease in crime also has a decrease in gun crime
Australia for instance had a massive increase immediately following their complete bans and only dropped in line with the rest of crime.

[distant whale]

That belief aligns with pretty much every statistic about gun deaths that ever existed

[hidden drum]

spey you have amazing opinions i must say i quite like them /gen

[grim path]

To me either allowing or disallowing guns is a way to go depending on what you want

[livid monolith]

Don't use gun "death" stats.
They love to conflate suicides and deaths during self defense actions as the same as "gun crime"

The US for instance about 60% of the "gun deaths" were actually just suicides but everything wants to make "deaths" = "crimes"

its honestly appalling.

[hidden drum]

should i open another can of worms

[void basin]

Ooo

[distant whale]

Depends

[grim path]

I love my worms!

[void basin]

This thread is a worm factory

[hidden drum]

real

[grim path]

I think we should ban fishing poles because they are meant for capturing fish...
||/j||

[distant whale]

public class WormFactoryBase {}

public class WormFactory extends WormFactoryBase {}

public class GunDiscussionWormFactory extends WormFactory {}

[hidden drum]

oh you

[livid monolith]

Ew object orientation

[hidden drum]

you forgot the IWormFactory

[grim path]

We love our Javas

[hidden drum]

and EnumWormFactoryType

[distant whale]

public class DaniellaTangentOverGunDiscussionWormFactory extends GunDiscussionWormFactory {}

[void basin]

You say a lot, you have a source?

The Golden Atlas [16-A] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) Don't use gun "death" stats.
They love to conflate suicides and deaths during self defense actions …

[livid monolith]

The CDC used to have the stats but recent years they've removed em
Brb

[grim path]

All of which are singletons

[hidden drum]

technically suicide is illegal in many countries so itd count, though i personally find suicide perfectly valid if youve actually tried some other routes (which is sadly often not the case)

[livid monolith]

"What they gonna do through my corpse in prison?"

[hidden drum]

real

[grim path]

Ah yes, I love punishing dead people

[hidden drum]

(its very stupid to make illegal, i know)

(how would you even punish it???)

[distant whale]

I was gonna ask 7_7

[grim path]

I will sure not ||kill myself|| because it's illegal

[distant whale]

What does it even do

[stable hamlet]

I mean I'm talking about overall gun deaths, not specifically gun crimes. there being a correlation between lower crime and lower gun crime is a given, though that alone does not dismiss all other factors. your claim that Australia's gun ban did little on its own is questionable and not something I could immediately find a source for

[hidden drum]

btw germany is actually one of the places where EVEN ASSISTING IN SUICIDE is LEGAL

(which i actually kind of like)

[livid monolith]

Got my percentage wrong

[grim path]

Interesting thing to allow

[distant whale]

What's green?

[hidden drum]

it leads people to be slightly more open to talk to others about it instead of isolating themselves even more

[hidden drum]

suicide legal, assisted suicide illegal

[grim path]

That's interesting

[distant whale]

What's "assisted" in this case btw?

[hidden drum]

i think its helping someone with it in some form, not sure how its defined precisely

[grim path]

Asking someone else to kill you ig

[hidden drum]

ok now that the thread was mine for a while (/lh), lets leave my tangent behind and continue (or not)!

[stable hamlet]

suicide is and remains relevant. a suicidal person is not necessarily gonna be in the right state of mind to assess if it's the right thing to do, so it should be a given that them having easy access to a method of carrying it out is probably not a good thing.

no I do not support forcing people to live if there's absolutely no way out of their situation, such as significant, untreatable and incurable chronic pain, and yes I support assisted suicide

[hidden drum]

i agree

though not entirely

[livid monolith]

But when talking about crimes committed using firearms they should be excluded.

[hidden drum]

when it comes to gun deaths however, it still is relevant

this isnt about crimes alone

[stable hamlet]

no they should not, because if easy access to firearms increases the amount of deaths that could and should have been avoided, such as most suicides, then that's clearly a bad thing

[distant whale]

A gun is having easy access to a method of carrying it out

[stable hamlet]

well lemme rephrase

we should be talking about gun deaths

not just gun crimes

[dusty swan]

pew pew go brr

[hidden drum]

iiuc, this discussion is about the morality of a tool designed for killing people, and a gun being used to kill someone is relevant regardless of legality

[sick lark]

We've all seen the lock picking layer videos for gun containers right

[dusty swan]

this is a gun lock xxx
we will be opening it with a gun lock xxx

[wraith mortar]

most people ever killed in a UK stabbing is like 4.

[livid monolith]

There is no law that can be concoctated that could predict when someone will want to end their life.
Lets say we go down this route.
Lets say you make a mental health exam required to have a firearm.
Congrats now even fewer people want to go to get mental help for fear theyll have their right stripped from them.
Lets say you make it so people can red flag over someone's supposed mental health. Congrats now vindictive people can use the government to strip peoples rights by false reports.
So on and so on.

Not to mention many don't turn to suicide from depression or mental health
https://youtube.com/shorts/PCtpYTiyoP0?si=nQX_keaOCSzofoKZ

[hidden drum]

hmmm... i sure wonder if this means anything /s

[hidden drum]

Congrats now even fewer people want to go to get mental help for fear theyll have their right stripped from them.
they shouldnt have this right by default to begin with

[stable hamlet]

...huh? getting mental help is not gonna make it harder for them to pass a mental health exam, what

[wraith mortar]

We got rid of all (most, but enough that it doesn't fucking matter) of our guns after dunblane. And australia did the same after Port Arthur.

[hidden drum]

Lets say you make a mental health exam required to have a firearm.
and also thats not what im on about. by making suicide an option that people can do safely with an informed-consent-like system, you eliminate the need for gun suicide in the first place.

[stable hamlet]

I don't think anyone said anything about red flag laws

that's a straw man, because it wasn't proposed and you're assuming it'll be implemented in a specific way that just so happens to align with your argument

[hidden drum]

^

[void basin]

What are red flag laws?

[hidden drum]

"if any of these red flags are present, no gun will be sold to that person"

[void basin]

Ah

[stable hamlet]

in the US, red flag laws are gun alws that enable state courts to order temporary seizure of firearms from indivudals who may pose a danger

it does not necessarily imply people flagging each other

[void basin]

Ah I see

[hidden drum]

but we are (at least I am) not talking about restriction, we are talking about not having a gun right at all because its a tool designed to kill and nothing else

[livid monolith]

Laws allowing people to report other people to the government that ask the government to unilaterally without due process strip someone of their right.

[hidden drum]

i find it absurd in fact that people are allowed to buy/own/use something that has the sole purpose of killing

[void basin]

You and ashe said completely contradictory things from what I can tell

The Golden Atlas [16-A] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) Laws allowing people to report other people to the government that ask the government to unilaterall…

You know what that means!

[distant whale]

IT'S TIME TO DU-DU-DU-DU-DU-DUEL

[stable hamlet]

50% of men who kill themselves have no history or evidence of mental illness
how about that other 50%?

[stable hamlet]

see I bothered to look it up before I sent that

[steel musk]

I usually like Dr K but this honestly feels like such a wacky take

[stable hamlet]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_law for your convenience

[steel musk]

that is an incredible embed from wikipedia icl

[void basin]

Already reading

Ashe ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_law for your convenience 📎

[livid monolith]

I mean it makes sense
Awhile back i nearly got to that same point
And ive lost a friend in the same way

[stable hamlet]

it specifically has to go through a court, that's the due process

[void basin]

Yeah

Most are filed by law enforcement

[livid monolith]

Due process is more than "a court saw it"

[void basin]

By most I mean 12/189 were from family members in cali

[distant whale]

A red flag law is a communist law

https://tenor.com/view/ussr-soviet-union-flag-waving-gif-16035861

[void basin]

Rest were law enforcemen

⧸Dorella ⧊ She/Her⧸ - ⧸Fnige⧸ ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) By most I mean 12/189 were from family members in cali

[grim path]

Nationalize the guns!

[void basin]

Oh god

[stable hamlet]

what do you consider due process?

[neon fern]

Socialism with guns

[grim path]

Our answer to non-complience

[hidden drum]

i think its important to look at the biases that come with therapy here

people who are extremely sad/depressed often see the world through that lens and spiral. their life worsens significantly, and they will find a counterargument for any way that one may say it can get better. i doubt Dr. K actually checks that their situation is rationally hopeless (as he implies), because thats not something he can do

[stable hamlet]

we have courts specifically for the purpose of separation of powers, so that the executive branch (that is, the government, and under that law enforcement) can't just do stuff like, say, take away your guns without actual basis in law

[livid monolith]

Do y'all not know about the federal VA red flag law that's been going on for like 2 decades?

[sick lark]

(this isn't just therapy)

[stable hamlet]

federal Virginia red flag law?

[sick lark]

this comes from clinical experience and studies

[livid monolith]

Veteran medical assistance

[hidden drum]

the data will still have the same problem i suspect

[stable hamlet]

ahhh

I'm not sure what you mean?

[sick lark]

including from autopsies? how?

[hidden drum]

autopsies especially

you cant see people spiraling into something vs being fully rational in an autopsie

[sick lark]

you can see their living situation

https://youtu.be/kt6UmH1EflY also the full video

[hidden drum]

i guess?

[sick lark]

you can look at the sources if you want to not watch it

[livid monolith]

...Among examples of patients' behavior referred to the VA's "Disruptive Behavior Committees" (yes, that's what they're called): venting "frustration about VA services and/or wait times, threatening lawsuits or to have people fired, and frequent unwarranted visits to the emergency department or telephone calls to facility staff."```

This system was then connected to the background check system where these things then block firearm purchases.

And it took a court order to undo them despite never having gone through a court to put them in place.

[vale token]

sorry for butting in, but said killing has a purpose (i.e. food)

[stable hamlet]

where is that from?

[wraith mortar]

Only source I can find is a multitude of articles all written the same person, Michelle Malkin.

All of them have the exact same wording

[hidden drum]

ok this actually does make sense

[stable hamlet]

Around 2019, Malkin began to distance herself from conventional conservatism and instead publicly support members of the extreme right, including Nick Fuentes, as well as other white nationalists, neo-Nazis, and Groypers, including Identity Evropa leader Patrick Casey.
cool

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Malkin

[hidden drum]

but uh i forgot what links this to guns and cant find it scrolling up /gen

was this just a tangent?

[sick lark]

upon rewatching the video, I actually get a lot of vibes that make me realize that this is also probably associated with high trans suicide rates

[livid monolith]

Yea there's probably some association

[sick lark]

transphobes associate transness with suicide risk when in fact it's just because their life is significantly more shitty

[hidden drum]

^

[steel musk]

this is 100% the case

trans people do not commit suicide because they hate themselves, they commit suicide because society hates them

[sick lark]

and so you can also apply this generally, if your life is shitty you don't need a mental illness to commit suicide

[sharp geyser]

why are trans people feeling awful when we are trying to systematically eliminate their rights and turn the whole population against them with propaganda? :c

[hidden drum]

^

[sick lark]

twas tangent

[hidden drum]

obviously not, and i agree

[grim path]

And a life that isn't necessarily shit can produce a mental illness

[livid monolith]

Yea

[sick lark]

suicides are 54% of all gun deaths

[livid monolith]

*For 2021
But it general stays around that number yea

[stable temple]

I’m in english with is sorrounded by concrete so I GTG

(I just realized that only sent just now, I sent that message at 9:40)

[livid monolith]

Oooof

https://tenor.com/view/top-gun-icemav-top-gun-maverick-top-gun-maverick-funeral-funeral-gif-26848803

[void basin]

Moment

[stable temple]

murder is bad ergo, we should take steps against murder ergo, reasonable and proportionate force should be used to avoid murder. Guns are simple mechanically ergo, a gun ban would not prevent the individual manufacturer of guns ergo, guns are accessible to anyone with the means and motivation to make one ergo, making guns illegal serves only to protect murderer’s ergo, a fair system allows people to possess guns for self-defense.

[hidden drum]

yes, but i still dont actually see how that translates to guns not being immoral by nature of being killing devices. the other 50% are still homocides - and suicide can be done any number of ways, without there being a right to guns (and arguably some of the other ways will also preserve a lot more dignity. i doubt ||blowing a hole in your face|| is what most people in shitty situations would prefer).

[void basin]

Moment

Ashe ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) > Around 2019, Malkin began to distance herself from conventional conservatism and instead publicly …

[sick lark]

(yeah I wasn't really arguing that myself)

[stable temple]

back to the concrete english classroom

[hidden drum]

guns are simple-ish to make, but a school shooter will have much more of a barrier compared to "just take my parents gun and go for it"

[sick lark]

I still do not support guns even with suicides not being accounted for

[hidden drum]

<3

[distant whale]

A fair system allows people to have self-defense period. Sans guns.

[void basin]

Itd probably stop most of the school shootings that happen

LynnCodes(She/Her/Sie) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) murder is bad ergo, we should take steps against murder ergo, reasonable and proportionate force sho…

[livid monolith]

I just saw a video of someone who 3d printed a .50 BMG

[void basin]

The uhhh

[hidden drum]

if i understand correctly: (tell me if im strawmanning!!)
by your way of argument guns being allowed in schools would be good because it allows for more self defense and you can just bring one anyway.

[wraith mortar]

uhhhh, this is a really bad take. Sure guns are Easy to manufacture (ones that blow up on the first shot yes). but that doesn't make a gun ban a bad thing, this is approaching straw man territory. I don't personally agree making guns illegal is a good idea, this'll blow up a black market. BUT, Heavy REGULATION of guns absolutely should happen, like what happens in literally all of europe and the UK.

[distant whale]

Also I gotta say, "making guns illegal only serves to protect murderers" is the most backwards sentence I have ever read. Making guns illegal does the exact opposite.

[sick lark]

also just because a gun is easy to make doesn't mean making the bullets is

[void basin]

Yeah

[hidden drum]

that too

[livid monolith]

Considering half the guys in my high school would go hunting in the morning before school/lol

[void basin]

Also you can ban blueprints

Australia does that

Iirc

[livid monolith]

Ah yes ban speech.

[sick lark]

I wouldn't support that

[wraith mortar]

This is harder, Because internet. also 3D printed guns are a thing

[void basin]

A total of 754 people were killed and 2,443 other people were injured in 604 shootings.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2023

Im sorry what the fuck

[grim path]

I'm sorry, how many?

[void basin]

Yeah thats what it was meant to be up ahains

Valerie [She/Her] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) This is harder, Because internet. also 3D printed guns are a thing

[grim path]

This is about 2 per day

Holy shit

[hidden drum]

im actually surprised its not more considering.

[void basin]

Ah these are mass shootings

not school shootings

[sick lark]

simply put the blueprints on the blockchain!

[wraith mortar]

Note that's only mass shootings, so 4 or more people injured/killed

[grim path]

And sell them as NFTs

[void basin]

Yeah

Valerie [She/Her] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) Note that's only mass shootings, so 4 or more people injured/killed

[wraith mortar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(2000–present)

[livid monolith]

Well when you diffine "mass shooting as 2-3 people injured by a fire arm"

[void basin]

4 people

The Golden Atlas [16-A] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) Well when you diffine "mass shooting as 2-3 people injured by a fire arm"

Not 2-3

Actually quite a difference

[livid monolith]

It used to be 2-3 they change it occasionally.

[sick lark]

wikipedia changes it?

[livid monolith]

No the archive they referenced

[hidden drum]

i dont mean this in an insulting way but i find it absolutely ridiculous to defend guns considering these statistics, no matter if theyre picky or not

[void basin]

15 already this year

Valerie [She/Her] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(2000–present) 📎

How the fuck

[steel musk]

america! !!!! ! ! !

[heady pasture]

guns bad

all I will say

[hidden drum]

^

[heady pasture]

goodbye

[sick lark]

the overton window is different

[hidden drum]

good decision

[void basin]

I guess at least 3/15 caused deaths

Still 3 more than it should be

[livid monolith]

America has over half the guns in existence.

[void basin]

Wait which half

The trigger or the barrel

[sick lark]

and that's why america shouldn't have EU-like gun laws

[wraith mortar]

The upper receiver

[void basin]

And?

The Golden Atlas [16-A] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) America has over half the guns in existence.

[livid monolith]

Well the rest are probably militaries and various groups

[wraith mortar]

No that's just civilian weapon statistics

[livid monolith]

Isn't the lower the serialized part?

[wraith mortar]

Both parts have serial numbers?

[hidden drum]

https://youtu.be/dWXuz95uBQo

[livid monolith]

Oop just checked apparently depends on the gun, but its either upper or lower (if there's multiple receiver parts)

[heady pasture]

ok this is garbage

[sick lark]

omg same

[hidden drum]

fun fact i feel personally safer not having access to a gun, because i know i could have one of my moments and use it on myself. may not be the case for everyone, but certainly for me

[sick lark]

I would seriously not enjoy having a gun in the house I'm in

[hidden drum]

yeahh

[hidden drum]

(and i usually do not feel like its a good option (or even worth considering) for me, it would absolutely not be a rational decision)

[stable temple]

Location gun bans worsen things if there is no enforcement mechanism.

again, gtg to class, I’ll be more available at lunch

[hidden drum]

so you agree?

[steel musk]

guns bad

[hidden drum]

REAL

[heady pasture]

is so simple

[hidden drum]

it turns out tools for killing are bad actually

who would have thought

[stable temple]

actually, I’d have to run the numbers on the risks of accidental discharge vs the likelihood of reducing/eliminating deaths from school shootings

[stable temple]

It certainly is a morbid balancing act

[stable temple]

maybe oversimplified

[stable temple]

To be blunt, most people who are at that point would choose an option that would be more likely to disable then anything else. Personally, I was too scared to make a sincere attempt, so I made gambles with single-percentage completion rate methods, in the hope of loosing the gamble.

[stable temple]

I didn’t think I suggested absolutist gun politics.

[stable temple]

honestly, Rust is like that. Write more syntax to make coding easier??? But it is also true

[stable temple]

ah yes, lets ban speech, what an awful slippery slope

[distant whale]

I don't understand 💀

Rust is like what?

[stable temple]

just for context, 35,000 people were killed in car crashes and 42,000 in falls, and 112,000 from fentanyl, in the US in 2023.

[stable temple]

the premise seems backwards

[distant whale]

I mean... The premise definitely isn't "more syntax = coding easier"

Which in itself is vague btw

[stable temple]

well yes, if you only read the conclusion, the argument will look ridiculous

[distant whale]

I don't know what you're talking about anymore

[stable temple]

Sorry, I have a bad habit of being too vague.

[stable temple]

I didn’t just say that “making guns illegal only serves to protect murderers”

[distant whale]

If your suite of ergos are meant to be a logical following, I fail to see how any one claim follows from the previous one

Like, just because there are illegal means to get guns doesn't mean it protects murderers

[stable temple]

Police can only be a certain amount of the population. The police as an institution also has numerous flaws and justified criticism. If someone is determined to hurt others, they will either make a weapon or find someone who knows how. If guns are not banned, self-defense will lead to that person being rapidly stopped. If guns are banned, then you can run into an Uvalde-esque situation.

[distant whale]

rapidly stopped

No, to the complete contrary that person will just reach to their gun. Alternatively they get killed which is not what I call "stop"

[stable temple]

I don’t think I understand what you are trying to convey here

Can you please tell me in a different wording. I am autistic, the way I process writing is different than most.

[distant whale]

That they have to find someone to even do the attempt is proof that it is effective. It's working as intended by creating friction between the intent and the act.

[distant whale]

(don't worry, there are plenty of autistic people and people who have ADHD here. I might be included myself, though I haven't been tested. In terms of active people here you're probably part of the majority lol)

[stable temple]

So you’re saying it’s better to leave someone defenseless against an armed assailant as long as doing so initially created friction?

[distant whale]

I'm gonna take a different approach, as I probably misquoted to make my point, gimme a sec

[hidden drum]

no, but the likelihood of the assailant being armed is significantly lower when not all people have guns

[distant whale]

This is a very vague and very misleading way to phrase this. You can't put "defenseless" and "friction" on equal footing here. The amount of friction you need to go through to even get that kind of weapon is absurd and it's very easy to leave traces. You have to be in a very dangerous mental state to even seek this kind of extremely risky endeavor. Meanwhile, when there's a gun you can reach to very easily, the barrier to action is much, much, much lower.

[hidden drum]

but im going to bed now

[distant whale]

Meanwhile you're saying "defenseless" but Police exists and can be called in most situations.

I won't deny that it is also flawed though (because no government is perfect). What I'm saying however is that just having access to guns is inherently a more flawed solution and leads to more deaths.

[stable temple]

average response time is 10-20 mins

[stable temple]

just to clarify, are you proposing a complete gun ban?

[heady pasture]

3-5 business days maybe

[distant whale]

Yes, it works extremely well already

[steel musk]

citation: the entire rest of the world

[stable temple]

Switzerland, Iceland, and Norway beg to differ

[steel musk]

actually guns are very tightly regulated in all of those countries

[distant whale]

The pros of everyone not having a gun empirically outcompete the cons

[steel musk]

also everyone that owns a gun in all of those countries is extremely highly trained and well vetted

and also most importantly not everyone owns a gun and carries them around with them so there's no race to the bottom

[stable temple]

Swiss gun ownership rate: 27.6/100 people
Norwegian gun ownership rate: 28.8/100 people
Iceland: 31.7/100 people

I concede it’s not 120.5/100

[thick magnet]

That's way higher than expected

[stable temple]

This data is accurate as of 2017, from the Small Arms Survey out of Geneva

[steel musk]

i would be willing to bet that in every single one of those countries, you are not allowed to just carry guns around with you for no reason

and you'd have to keep them locked up when not in use

[hidden drum]

keep in mind those who do own them are probably professionals (aka hunters) and own multiple

[steel musk]

and i'd also be willing to bet that they're more likely shotguns or similar for sport/hunting

[hidden drum]

yea

[steel musk]

switerland: open and concealed carry only with a specific license
iceland: open carry and concealed carry no
norway: open carry and concealed carry no

[stable temple]

Switzerland is may issue. Czech republic is shall issue similar to many american states

Same in Estonia

Greece issues Concealed Carry permits but I don’t have details

[stable temple]

and Latvia and Lithuania

and Malta

[wraith mortar]

Switzerland also bans high capacity magazines for semi-auto rifles. Machine guns are outright banned

[stable temple]

and Monaco

In Greenland, open carry is permitless for long guns

[wraith mortar]

Also a not insignificant minority (I think it's actually a majority) of the people in switzerland who own guns are former service members who kept their rifles after service. Take a guess wether or not they've got training

[steel musk]

This is because greenland is mostly inside the arctic circle and ther are polar bears so I think this one is justified

I can't really comment on the rest of it

I see your points that there are lots of edge cases, but the US is a complete race to the bottom. Everyone wants a gun because everyone else has a gun so they don't feel safe without one

[wraith mortar]

Case in point. Literally the czech republic

[stable temple]

A large portion of gun owners who have the means get training. Unfortunately, the training is often made inaccessible, along with other licensing requirements in blue states, to people of low socioeconomic class, which are the people that need self-defense the most

[steel musk]

and I'm also dubious that we've not really talked about legislation surrounding storage and training

[wraith mortar]

Which has been on a massive downswing of gun ownership

[wraith mortar]

You shouldn't be allowed a gun without the fucking training

[stable temple]

just pointing out, you’re moving the goalposts

[steel musk]

Yes that's true

Thank you for pointing it out - I have updated my position

[stable temple]

maybe the training and certification should be simultaneously rigorous and accessible

[steel musk]

the training should be a prerequisite for buying the gun

[wraith mortar]

Training should be MANDATORY for owning a firearm

[stable temple]

Have you shot before /nfta

[wraith mortar]

Not anything bigger than .22 LR. I do have MANY freinds in the military however. And know people who have been fucking killed by gun violence

The first fucking thing I was told and instructed before shooting was the rules

1. Never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to use it.
2. Never point it at anything you are not absolutely certain you are going to shoot.
3. Never keep the gun loaded until ready to use.
4. Be sure of your target and surroundings

[stable temple]

i’m sorry for your loss.

[stable temple]

same thing I was told when I was learning to shoot at like 11 ish

[wraith mortar]

If RSO of the place I was at saw you disobeying any of these they would fucking take your rifle away and you'd be banned on the spot.

[stable temple]

well yeah

[stable temple]

Being embarrassed and banned is better than maimed or worse or being responsible for maiming to worse

also, I GTG for a little bit

i’ll be back in an hour or two

[latent surge]

hey peeps, I'd like to join the discussion if that's cool. have you agreed on any point so far?

[distant whale]

Doesn't feel like it... 7_7

[latent surge]

where do you stand on the issue?

[void basin]

Gun bad

[distant whale]

Guns should be banned in the best case scenario, or at least heavily regulated

[void basin]

Bottom text

[latent surge]

wanna argue or nah?

[void basin]

Oh god

[latent surge]

i havent made up my mind about this but i can devils advocate just for the fun of it

[distant whale]

I'm gonna go to sleep actually

[latent surge]

good night!

[heady pasture]

thank you

[glacial lark]

I don't know if this has been addressed. I'm late to this convo.
So if guns are banned we run into more situations like Uvalde? Where a gunman stormed into a primary school and shot 21 people? What? You get these because of guns.

Also I read a lot about "infringing rights". Wtf, what about the other rights? Don't you have a right to live / safety to bodily harm? Maybe that's just not a thing in the US.

The second amendment isn't the only thing in that document nor would it be the first to be taken out of it. To talk about them like they're sacred is bananas

[glacial lark]

And safety? It's the biggest lie that these things keep you safe. These guns kill you. Either by suicide, by accident or by "the bad guys" also having access to them. And you can't have safety from accidents and home safety at the same time btw. Either you lock them away where no one can steal them or your kids can't reach them or you have them at the ready when the big bad burglar comes to kill you, which at the current economical situation of half a of America is unlikely.

And with guns being so super easy and legal to get, every antagonistic interaction with another human being is a risk, when that bigot/shithead/asshole could maybe have gun. Just because you all are scared because everybody else could also have a gun. This is circular logic.

Granted, in a country where 300 million people have 5 gazillion guns, queer people arming themselves because of right wing militias legitimately threatening them is valid. It's just not solving the problem but the symptoms

[stable temple]

The declaration of independence posits an unalienable right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. The 2nd amendment is one of the enforcement mechanisms for that. It gives the following reasoning:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The first clause gives an explanation of why the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not infringed. It does not grant a right that didn’t already exist, it codifies the existence of an already unalienable right.

[stable temple]

Why do mass shootings tend to happen in no-gun zones?

[glacial lark]

Because they happen in a country where there are also "buy guns cheap no questions asked" zones

[stable temple]

Speaking from experience, suicide attempts tend to be impulsive. If the option exists to appeal in case of immediate duress, I think a 72 hour waiting period would be fair.

[stable temple]

Which, in the case of a total gun ban, those zones will simply become illegal instead of not existing

[glacial lark]

I know that people have many other means of suicide. But I reckon that guns are awfully effective at actually killing you if you try to. But I won't blame the suicide statistics on guns.

[stable temple]

Murder is still a crime. A bigot/shithead/asshole can mortally assault you, as happened to a member of the trans community in Oklahoma. Murder is a crime either way.

[glacial lark]

Of course you will still have guns, you can't erase them entirely. But making them so easily available makes it so much easier for people that shouldn't have them eg criminals to get them.

[glacial lark]

Yes, but there are no material needs to just have a gun. People are not addicted to them like drugs. And people also armed with guns can still kill you if they ambush you unless you John Wick them. It just makes every assault that much easier for the perpetrator.
If guns are heavily outlawed, getting them illegally will be that much more expensive where it's not worth it to get them for petty crime.

[distant whale]

Curious how they also happen way less.

[glacial lark]

I don't get this point in general. Why would me and potentially everyone else having a gun make me safer. I'm not Lucky Luke. I think most people aren't. If someone comes at you with a gun and I try to draw it, I'm dead. In this scenario are we walking around in groups guns at the ready? What if a group of assholes/bigots ambush us?
We aren't safe from assault, even when we ban guns, but we can minimize damage.

It's the same argument everybody made when school shootings happened. "What if an armed guard were there to protect the children?". Guns in every school, yeah that's making them safer...

Yeah, Kevin, 32, making minimum wage, will be there to have the responsibility of saving everyone from a prepared, heavily armed (ex-) student

[latent surge]

damn you just yoink'd that from jim jefferies

the name and everything 😄

[glacial lark]

I'm not dissing Kevin here, he's way in over his head

[glacial lark]

Ok, wow, I didn't know I got the name right XD

[glacial lark]

By design though

[stable temple]

sorry, my responses are sparse, at school

[stable temple]

citation needed

[distant whale]

...did you seriously doubt the amount of gun shootings and ask for source?

[glacial lark]

No worries, I'm having a quiet time at work 😄

[stable temple]

It’s a force equalizer. My grandmother and a mugger in Norfolk near her cardiologist are not equals. With a gun, she effectively is.

[stable temple]

I doubted that gun-free zones have fewer shootings

[latent surge]

Same goes the other way around, Any 60 pound child can overpower their theachers or parents with a gun

[glacial lark]

If the mugger has to worry about a gun, he will likely bring his own. Of course your grandma could surprise him with absolute skill, but more likely she'll endangers herself in the process

[stable temple]

Yes, and anyone who isn’t completely reckless and has young kids stores their gun safely if it’s not in their immediate control

[void basin]

Ah so thats why its only ~80 school shootings a year

LynnCodes(She/Her/Sie) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) Yes, and anyone who isn’t completely reckless and has young kids stores their gun safely if it’s not…

[latent surge]

I understand that. But do all the kids in your kid's school have non-reckless parents?

Because its other people who are the hazard

[glacial lark]

We discussed this before, if you have an open border country with states that have restrictions and states without, then you practically have a country without restrictions

[latent surge]

That's a bold assumption

i see where it comes from, but we have such discrepancies in the EU and guns are not ubiquitous

[stable temple]

Do you believe safe storage laws are against the right to keep and bear arms

[latent surge]

Well, depends on the extent of the regulation i guess

[stable temple]

also, got a quiz so brb

[latent surge]

it can certainly nullify the 'bear' aspect of the right

[latent surge]

good luck!

[glacial lark]

I don't think we have a country that has as lax gun laws as the US has

[latent surge]

not as lax, surely

still, all shootings I can recall from memory were using either hunting rifles or illegally owned guns

(in the EU, that is)

[glacial lark]

I'm not saying you can 100% prevent them. But the number of shootings in the US is caused by their gun laws, no way around it

[latent surge]

Surely, easier access begets more people accessing the thing

my push back was against the idea that borders are the only measure preventing homogeneous propagation of the lowest regulation

[glacial lark]

Ok, but I am pushing back against "Well look what happens when my country regulates guns in some places"

I agree my statement was a bit hyperbolic

[stable temple]

i’m back, wish me a good curve

[stable temple]

not necessarily

generally places that suck to live in have more violence in general

[glacial lark]

I don't argue against that. I'd argue that throwing guns into the equation makes it even more violent.

[stable temple]

Would you say that an illegally owned gun has the same propensity to kill someone has a legally owned one?

[stable temple]

If so, is it easier or harder for someone who has an illegal gun to harm or kill someone who is armed compared to killing said individual if they are unarmed?

[glacial lark]

Yes, but them being illegal makes them harder/more expensive to get which overall reduces the number of violent deaths.

And arming myself doesn't make me bulletproof

[latent surge]

either the same, or more

i would not say that the gun itself has any propensity to do anything, but certainly someone who illegally owns a gun seems to me to be more propense to kill someone

[stable temple]

In 2012, Venezuela banned private sales of firearms and ammunition with the intention of lowering crime rates. The army, police, and certain groups trusted by the government (colectivos) are exempt from the ban and can buy firearms from state-owned manufacturers. In 2013 Venezuela stopped issuing new firearm licenses, and in 2017, the government banned the carrying of firearms in public places. The government declared that more than 15,000 firearms were confiscated in 2018. Sixty disarmament centres were created in the country and the penalty for illegal firearm possession was raised to twenty years imprisonment.

According to the government, the only people who should carry guns are government agents.

According to the most recent data I can find, the homocide rate in Venezuela was 40.4/100k inhabitants (2022). In the United States it was 6.81/100k inhabitants. Notably, in New Hampshire, a state with permitless carry and other permissive policies, it was 1.2/100k according to the FBI.

[latent surge]

thats not even apples to oranges

thats apples to burgers

[stable temple]

How so?

[latent surge]

well, Venezuela is severely underdeveloped, unstable, and with a lot of cartel related crime

if you want to compare, you should compare venezuela before and after regulation, not venezuela and the US

if you have to compare the US with anything else, you could try Australia

[stable temple]

Yes, and many European nations have significant welfare states(poverty can drive crime), free college(education is known to reduce crime), and a biopsychosocial approach to addiction instead of criminalizing it

[latent surge]

sounds like you want to solve gun crimes by solving every other problem around guns

[glacial lark]

Guns don't make you physically addicted

that's definitely apples and oranges

[stable temple]

Criminalization of drugs leads to drug-users being treated as criminals therefore being relegated as a criminal.

[dusty swan]

... venezuela isnt in europe?

[void basin]

Guns are very different to drugs?

LynnCodes(She/Her/Sie) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1227611607736123393 message) Criminalization of drugs leads to drug-users being treated as criminals therefore being relegated as…

[stable temple]

Uses of guns in commission of crime tends to be associated with organized crime.

Treating drug users as criminals effectively pushes them towards organized crime.

[latent surge]

stay flexy

[glacial lark]

But humans don't have a physical drive to use guns like people addicted to drugs. If there is a ban on guns we don't push people into crime like how drug users are pushed. I don't get this argument

[dusty swan]

huh ???????//

[stable temple]

that wasn’t the argument I was making

[glacial lark]

Can you elaborate?

[stable temple]

I was saying the that the social problems in the US are a major driver of violence