viral mesa
Also they wrote a good TL;DR so check it out
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/13sqdt7/i_am_no_longer_speaking_at_rustconf_2023_thephd/
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/13sznsb/jt_resigns_from_roles_in_the_rust_project/
warm oriole
lemme link people here
alpine bison
WHY RUST WHY
spark crane
bad communication
lament fern
and then because we hate people reading just reactions and summaries instead of the source, here's the original post: https://thephd.dev/i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023
alpine bison
like, am I being a dunce in thinking that communication is at least slightly easier than dethroning C?
spark crane
and then because we hate people reading just reactions and summaries instead of ...
yes, @viral mesa please try to keep the thread intro as non-fearmongering as possible
viral mesa
and then because we hate people reading just reactions and summaries instead of ...
oh the first reddit post I linked to linked to that one
alpine bison
and hey, agreed that I'm being a karen and only reading non-first hand accounts
viral mesa
yes, <@217672275980320768> please try to keep the thread intro as non-fearmonger...
oh I didn't wanna make it seem that way, sorry
spark crane
oh I didn't wanna make it seem that way, sorry
big titles like "people are resigning" and "rust mods locked this" as the first thing you see kiiiinda give that impression
lament fern
oh the first reddit post I linked to linked to that one
yes, but drop-off after the first link means we prefer to link first-hand accounts directly
torn cave
What's the TL;DR?
spark crane
i recommend a short objective tldr/summary at the start of the post, then followed by links in ascending levels of abstractions from the source
viral mesa
big titles like "people are resigning" and "rust mods locked this" as the first ...
yeaaaah that's true, sorry again
well if anybody wants to write a TL;DR I'll add it to the post msg
lament fern
from what we understand nobody is resigning from any position, they're just no longer speaking
viral mesa
I'm too tired to do it myself
alpine bison
but again, I'm just curious as to wassup ?
(just like I was with the policy thing, but then it seemed like an honest mistake, and they got on top of it soon)
and like, is this a pattern that we should start expecting? or is it the whole "bad news is the best type of news"+algorithm inciting bias?
lament fern
and they wrote the post so they could link people to it if they asked why they're not on the schedule any more
torn cave
well if anybody wants to write a TL;DR I'll add it to the post msg
One of your links has a TLDR comment
Just take that
Both your reddit links
viral mesa
I could use the one made by the r/rust mods, it looks pretty good, but it's too long
viral mesa
is this enough?
I don't know why I made the thread I am supposed to return to my work >~<
I should've let somebody else do it
am dumb
spark crane
What's the TL;DR?
JeanHeyd Meneide got the keynote at rustconf, wanted to talk about a not-even-rfc-yet feature, conf/project team said that they dont want the impression its a feature or even close/approved to being implemented so they moved the slot from keynote to normal talk following which JeanHeyd completely cancelled
keynote: first talk in a conference, the opening one
warm oriole
JeanHeyd Meneide got the keynote at rustconf, wanted to talk about a not-even-rf...
I mean, kinda fair ngl
warm oriole
idk how they handled it
viral mesa
yeaaah it's kind of an asshole thing to do so suddenly
warm oriole
but I get why they don't want a ready to go feature as the keynote
I wouldn't either 
torn cave
Yea, if I was invited to do a keynote and then downgraded I'd also cancel🤷
viral mesa
but I get why they don't want a ready to go feature as the keynote
okay but why did they turn back on their decision after already making it
if things were transparent and somebody apologised for making the wrong decision things would be fine I think
spark crane
JeanHeyd Meneide got the keynote at rustconf, wanted to talk about a not-even-rf...
tldr resigning: really not many details beyond basically a "i resign <link to conference thing>". seems unlikely thats the only reason - if it was solidarity wouldnt you make a proper statement?
lament fern
but they apparently didn't object when it was all being arranged and before JeanHeyd started preparing for it
warm oriole
okay but why did they turn back on their decision after already making it
if thi...
they should've obviously had the opinion earlier
and again, not sure how they handled it
spark crane
this is why its all communication issues
lament fern
tldr resigning: really not many details beyond basically a "i resign <link to co...
oh it's someone else who resigned?
spark crane
yeah a different person
my guess: they wanted to resign already and used this as a reason
lament fern
or possibly a "last straw" type thing, a lot of reasons adding up, and they figured this is as good a time as any to actually do it
warm oriole
idk how close to the conf they downgraded it, but if it had time they could've let the person make another keynote on another thing
spark crane
i think this whole thing was vastly blown out of proportion
warm oriole
definitely lol
lament fern
yeah, without much more information there's not much reason to treat it as a huge thing
another small event that says "the rust project needs better communication," but we already knew that, and this doesn't seem otherwise notable (at least with the information this far)
spark crane
actually
this was apparently nothing to do with the foundation
instead the rust project were the ones doing it
lament fern
ah thank you for correcting that
viral mesa
I feel like that only makes it worse
Like the communication problem isn't just in the foundation it's in the project too
spark crane
and while sure the foundation needs better communication, at least the have the benefit of being a company which could achieve that structure easily
the project is a assortment of open source developers with currently no clear governance model or structure
spark crane
I feel like that only makes it worse
Like the communication problem isn't just i...
i mean we knew the project had issues like this from way back when, when the moderation team resigned
viral mesa
that happened?
lament fern
yeah that was what we were thinking of but misremembered the details
warm oriole
spark crane
that happened?
im not sure what happened then but yes
sth about the moderation team not being given the power to actually moderate
but like, i'm pretty chill overall
these are definitely pretty mild growing pains all things considered
i firmly believe thats what they are
warm oriole
I mean, what we get is Rust
spark crane
growing pains
warm oriole
I can definitely exchange these pains for likely the best programming language to grace the earth
(I'm too Rustpilled)
spark crane
oh i think you misunderstand
they're not pains we have to tolerate because we get rust
they're internal pains to the project and foundation because Rust has grown and changed a lot
warm oriole
oh yeah I get that
spark crane
imo this is just kinda a product of that growth and importantly wont be relevant in a few years
buoyant token
modern trench
I couldn't really care that much less about this, but i must admit that a better solution to this situation wouldve easily been possible
near mauve
this definitely doesn't seem anywhere as bad as "thou shalt not use 'cargo' without 'the'"
especially since it seems to be a one-off
yes, it could've been solved with better communication, but stuff like this is bound to happen
viral mesa
buoyant token
while i understand these protest resignations or whatever, i'm not sure if it's effective for all the good minded people to leave and all the people who caused this to happen in the first place to stay
buoyant token
Saying Black with capitalized B feels weird
it's a liberal proposal to make race issues more important, hence capitalisation of B, i think it's a fine idea
though i'll be honest i don't really know how it became popularised i just know the implications of how it is used lol
torn cave
As someone who doesn't know about it, it slightly has vibes of some old slave owner going "Ah yes... The Blacks, a hard-working race" 💀
Though I understand that that's not accurate whatsoever here
buoyant token
nah that's not what it's about
torn cave
Ye
buoyant token
But on that note, it is considered more progressive to always use it as a (capitalised) adjective, so Black people, rather than "blacks"
modern trench
wait, adjectives are capitalised? or is that exclusive to this and some others?
torn cave
German doesn't capitalize adjectives
buoyant token
nouns then
torn cave
But it's an adjective not a noun
wet haven
sometimes we do capitalise verbs
buoyant token
But it's an adjective not a noun
🗡️
torn cave
in "the Blacks" it's a noun, in "the Black people", it's an adjective
buoyant token
yes
torn cave
Except in colloquial talk
buoyant token
germans capitalise random words whenever they feel like it :P
wet haven
we don't
torn cave
Except in colloquial talk
Except when I'm on Android and don't feel like disabling capitalization of the first letter of a message
buoyant token
there's too many germans in here 😭 save me pls
torn cave
germans capitalise random words whenever they feel like it :P
Nouns, and the start of a sentence
Lmao
It's
Exactly two cases
wet haven
there's too many germans in here 😭 save me pls
no
you have entered german territory, show your passport please
buoyant token
well "exactly two" is more than one
torn cave
Dir ist nicht mehr zu helfen
modern trench
Nouns, and the start of a sentence
^
torn cave
well "exactly two" is more than one
English has start of sentence and "proper nouns"
Which is worse than German
wet haven
It's
Exactly two cases
we can capitalise "du" (you), that used to be the standard
torn cave
Also localization adjectives
modern trench
we *can* capitalise "du" (you), that used to be the standard
Du is actually a noun tho
wet haven
Du is actually a noun tho
well in that case it's an exception because we don't capitalise it normally
modern trench
yes
torn cave
Du is actually a noun tho
I never connected that pronouns are nouns 💀
wet haven
it's a pronoun tho
modern trench
its just that usually, pronouns aren't capitalized, and that includes Du
torn cave
Also formal Sie is capitalized
wet haven
we don't capitalise the other ones
torn cave
So that's 2 cases and one exception
English has 2 cases and an unending list of special cases
German wins!!!
wet haven
what about something like "das Machen" tho? (ok the example sounds weird but w/e)
modern trench
wait what discord
wet haven
anyways what do you think about my opinion here
hey, we're having a serious discussion here, let's stay on topic
modern trench
what about something like "das Machen" tho? (ok the example sounds weird but w/e...
that is a nounified verb
wet haven
it's weird tho
modern trench
Eine sogenannte Nominalisierung
torn cave
I thought there was no vote to downgrade them
modern trench
similar to "the act of [x]"
torn cave
what about something like "das Machen" tho? (ok the example sounds weird but w/e...
In English that's called a gerund
torn cave
They all voted for the speaker, then some people disliked that, and one person changed the entire team's decision
torn cave
That's how I understand it at least
modern trench
ye i just re-read it
torn cave
consider my message bullshit
I've decided to consider everything else you have ever or will ever say, except that one message, to be bullshit
You're welcome
modern trench
OUGHSWIORUGHSIOUG HSIOUGSIUORGFSOIUGF
spark crane
this thread, and the thread linked in it, explain what happened from the rustconf side
(the "apolitical" was meant to say "no interest or involvement in the leadership politics")
halcyon spire
What page/software is that? It runs so well
fickle storm
Amos releases a statement https://gist.github.com/fasterthanlime/42da9378768aebef662dd26dddf04849
(noboilerplate will not be releasing a statement, Tris has too much work to do to get invovled this time)
wet haven
(noboilerplate will not be releasing a statement, Tris has too much work to do t...
are you seriously and unironically writing about yourself in 3rd person?
warm oriole
Amos releases a statement https://gist.github.com/fasterthanlime/42da9378768aebe...
What a thread lol
didn't even know "Crablang" was a thing, but seems extremely cringe
fickle storm
are you seriously and unironically writing about yourself in 3rd person?
one has no comment /j
halcyon spire
(noboilerplate will not be releasing a statement, Tris has too much work to do t...
Dang, I wanted Mr. Nob Oilerplate's input as well 😔
fickle storm
hehe
slender apex
guys will this drama affect the rust ecosystem and market in the future? I am really enjoying the language and was thinking of making a deep dive and get a rust job if possible once i have a good enough portfolio with it.
sry if i sound naive, i started programming about 2 years ago now and so far all my experiences with different companies has involved being familiar with the tech stack of the company in question
not trying to be hateful/negative or anything
spark crane
guys will this drama affect the rust ecosystem and market in the future? I am re...
highly doubt it will change much, except for maybe some features being implemented in a different way
slender apex
highly doubt it will change much, except for maybe some features being implement...
okay thank you
this gives me hope
fickle storm
guys will this drama affect the rust ecosystem and market in the future? I am re...
the way to look at it is if sun/oracle can continuously fuck up so hard and Java's still #3 langauge in the world, probably gonna be fine 😆
slender apex
the way to look at it is if sun/oracle can continuously fuck up so hard and Java...
Truee hahaha
humble vine
Was about to share this
buoyant token
I think that's a good apology
warm oriole
just sounds like a no brainer
like it's pretty clear it's not out of hate or malice
humble vine
yeah it's a good apology
I think transparency is still a problem, but if they can fix that with the new group that'd be awesome
dusky karma
Man idk why this is still really messing with my nerves for rust, seeing them continuously mess up especially with this specific part of the foundation is aaaaaaa
spark crane
Man idk why this is still really messing with my nerves for rust, seeing them co...
uhhh, the foundation pretty much isnt involved in this
this is all the open source team
which is a entirely separate entity
dusky karma
I know it's much of a existential concern about transparency
lament fern
well all compile-time reflection work in rust is dead in the water
https://soasis.org/posts/statement-on-rustconf-compile-time-introspection/
whoever at the project thought this was such a bad idea for the language got their way we suppose
torn cave
Bruh moment
near mauve
aw come on
viral mesa
Awh man that really sucks :c
I don't blame them for making such a decision but I'm sad that such cool tech will never be finished or Integrated into the lang
warm oriole
whoever at the project thought this was such a bad idea for the language got the...
I don't think anyone thought that
they just downgraded it because the feature was too experimental (obviously should've never accepted it but just saying)
don't think anyone was actually against reflections
lament fern
some of the sources of folks closer to the leadership chat have indicated there were a few folks uncomfortable with the topic at all, experimental or not
stoic merlin
Man, shit like this is why I actually like Robert's Rules of Order
warm oriole
some of the sources of folks closer to the leadership chat have indicated there ...
at least personally speaking it's a brilliant feature
lament fern
yeah we hope we're misinterpreting, and that work on it gets picked back up
modern trench
you are not misinterpreting
but i will be honest: compile time reflection is not hard to do, just hard to optimize
another project will take this one's place
modern trench
there is no reasonable argument against it, so i believe it will
as i said, it is not actually that difficult to do
halcyon spire
:o
modern trench
upvoted
lament fern
amos seems to have a decent head for seeing what isn't working in a process, so we hope he gets to
autumn hearth
Fantastic, hope he gets in!
warm oriole
yeah it's weird, considering it's a channel built around Rust lol
kind of, shooting themselves in the foot for no reason
dusky karma
Companies are abandoning the Rust Project
Well that's a bit hyperbolic ain't it
spark crane
i dont understand it
how
how are you active producing content but are not aware of how dumb it is to make the content inflammatory
dusky karma
Yum yum clickbait
torn cave
I don't understand your confusion
Making stuff about a topic for content means milking that content any direction it goes, no?
modern trench
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEnuzwCWpgQ
bruh
viral mesa
> Companies are abandoning the Rust Project
Well that's a bit hyperbolic ain't i...
Well it's technically true
A single company has abandoned the project
modern trench
Which?
distant zinc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEnuzwCWpgQ
Oh cool, another reason to not trust that channel anymore
Always advertising the cheat sheet that requires you to join his newsletter was weird, but that wasn't about the rust content itself. But making that inflammatory is borderline disinformation now
steady dome
oh I'm not the only person who finds that channel distasteful
I was wondering if I was just to particular
indigo sinewBOT
Same here.
autumn hearth
I love how rust has the tiniest little issues and everyone freaks out about it.
buoyant token
i agree
halcyon spire
This is what happens when the rest is perfect
humble vine
tru
near mauve
unironically a good point
viral mesa
ooh it finally happened
buoyant token
uwu t-libs rep
viral mesa
hopefully this marks an end to the controversies and drama
humble vine
yeah
viral mesa
The king is dead, long live the king!
I think a rename of the thread is appropriate lol
humble vine
lmao
wet haven
what was the old title tho
torn cave
"More Rust controversy"
distant zinc
that makes it sound like rust is ruined and people should stop adopting it or something, and I don't like it. I could be misinterpreting though, or it's missing a /s tone tag
also just much less informative about what this is about
humble vine
that makes it sound like rust is ruined and people should stop adopting it or so...
"The kind is dead, long live the king" is quite a common expression to evoke some kind of reincarnation or end of a bad period
well I mean I explained it very badly, read #1112099969357332651 message instead :v
How could it mean Rust is ruined? 
but yeah it's less informative
How about a prefix? -> Rust leadership: The king is dead, long live the king!
@viral mesa
torn cave
Or just drop the thread and make a new one about the new leadership
viral mesa
How about a prefix? -> *Rust leadership: The king is dead, long live the king!*
sure
I used that phrase with this meaning
"The king is dead, long live the king!" is a traditional proclamation made following the accession of a new monarch in various countries. The seemingly contradictory phrase simultaneously announces the death of the previous monarch and asserts continuity by saluting the new monarch.
In this case it's literal cause the leadership structure of the rust project has changed
humble vine
yeah
distant zinc
ok I just did not know there was some specific traditional meaning associated with it
I just looked it up as well
it sounds really confusing though, "the king" is said twice which sounds like it's the same king, but in the actual meaning it's two different kings, one dead and one new? just, what??
humble vine
That's the point of the expression 
"long live the new king" sounds less cool
Especially as a French person I know that expression by heart: "le Roi est mort, vive le Roi"
distant zinc
well I had no idea, I've heard "long live the king" on its own many times but never this I think
viral mesa
Rust leadership: The king is dead, long live the king!
humble vine
ayyy
lament fern
this is a good step we think
autumn hearth
The king is dead!
Long live the king!
wanton osprey
POV: 1789 France
lament fern
so. coming back to this because as of this week, there's credible new information on the who and what and why . . . and *if* it is true, then the whole issue was not just an example of a project having a blunder because they grew beyond what its initial leadership structure could handle, but was the result of somebody having personal beef with thephd's proposal and leveraging personal connections to try and squash it
the new information comes from this comment by whitequark on serde's recent change to not use an unverified binary blob as part of its macros, who claims:
The reason I think it’s reasonable to consider something deeper to be going on is: every single Rust controversy I’ve discussed with key Rust people had a lot more going on than was there on the surface. Case in point: dtolnay was also the one thus far unnamed by anyone speaking for the project person who was involved in ThePHD’s talk being downgraded from a keynote. If I see someone acting surreptitiously in one case I will expect that to repeat.
(emphasis added to relevant section).
now you may see this as credible or not. for our part, whitequark is someone who we have enough mutual friends with to respect, so we believe this information to be credible but do consider it on its own merits for yourselves, the personal connection there is a known blind spot of ours. however, thephd has also since stated that others have corroborated this to them privately
there's a better (and lengthier) write-up of this here by pyrex but for brevity:
I believe David Tolnay is trying to release really good code, but I also think these are the behaviors of someone who quite enjoys being a central, load-bearing figure and who likes to be able to make changes basically without review.
anyways, that's the latest happenings in this saga as we understand it, interested if anyone else has any thoughts
modern trench
yikes.
lament fern
we recently found out we are friends-of-friends with several of the folks involved in this, so we hear a lot about it
spark crane
turns out someone named on multiple Palantir (US company that's literally evil, look it up) Patents is a unpleasant person
humble vine
dtolnay responded btw.
https://gist.github.com/dtolnay/7f5da4bf057b7c6d0d00c6bed3060b96
zinc sky
yeah twas linked in the pyrex write-up
humble vine
oh ok
lament fern
oh it wasn't when we read it
this seems to have been posted shortly after we posted that
zinc sky
yeah it's very new
it's sorta worth reading, but you should also read the responses by pyrex and JeanHeyd
lament fern
Yeah - it's linked from Pyrex's update to the thread but adding this here as this is directly JeanHeyd's response to David's post
https://pony.social/@thephd/111005037745408291
near mauve
turns out someone named on multiple Palantir (US company that's literally evil, ...
oh my god it serves the US intelligence agency
oh and they spy competitors, illegally steal data and track people, they might be racist, and help ICE deport people
having a person that works for this kind of company abusing rust leadership's power feels pretty concerning
lament fern
. . . given our work history we are not inclined to judge someone just on that, but their description of events not lining up with JeanHeyd's does seem to bring that at the very least closer to relevancy
and it is worth pointing out that it's still not that substantiated that david was the one primarily responsible for the retraction
near mauve
it looks like dtolnay's assertions might be based on this part of jeanheyd's original blog about the situation
but this speaks of an original idea before the invitation, not afterwards
near mauve
through random coding i came across something very interesting
it appears the very changes to rust jeanheyd has been discussing had already been implemented or thought of in some form by dtolnay himself. might be related to why dtolnay might've been interested in removing jeanheyd's keynote
it uses, and is meant for, procedural macros, which iirc was different to jeanheyd's approach
lament fern
jeanheyd's research was in how it might be added to the language itself, not be added as a macro on top
near mauve
yeah, exactly
jeanheyd implementing that into the language itself would've rendered this project obsolete, which fits with the "dtolnay removed the keynote to shut down the competition" theory
humble vine
the Big Macro theory
