ChatGPT’s inability to cite its sources and possible solutions

[glacial pilot]

Cant work on it now, but I’m going to revisit this later tonight.

[glossy spoke]

Sweet. I'll monitor, comment, and as I can assist

[glacial pilot]

If anyone has tried to give it examples, lmk. In many of my prompts, me giving it an example has been shockingly effective.

[glossy spoke]

Right now my impression is 'completely broken'. I'd love to see prompt and output, and rework my ideas.

[glacial pilot]

I think one big problem may be how it understands citations. Maybe we don’t use that word - it may just understand a citation as “author name paired with number”, basically the problem that arises with chess.

What do you think

We may need to reframe it’s understanding of the prompt or command

[glossy spoke]

I did mess with this, with a practice essay I had it tell me how to do, with it acting as a teacher. I then tried to get it to help me rewrite the essay 'properly' to its standards. This proved problematic in huge ways.

I'm not currently in school. I don't currently need to write or cite for essays. That drops my motivation hugely and disconnects me from 'so my teacher expects this'.

Since I am 'hands off'... I'll follow along what you guys do

[glacial pilot]

Oh no I’m not doing it for the purpose of cheating

[glossy spoke]

read what I said carefully

I didn't say you or anyone else was

I'm saying, 'I'm so disconnected I have little sense what exactly to get it to do'

[glacial pilot]

I actually want to know where the heck it gets information. I’m not interested in essays, more of having it accurately point me in the direction of where it got that information

[glacial pilot]

Ahhhh I see

My bad

👍

I think the key here may be having it not give a traditional citation, but telling it a different definition for a citation

[glossy spoke]

It's a reasonable concern.

It's abusable, but also legitimately usable - if possible to do.

Those are separate things.

I'm interested in the 'so how usable can this get?'

[glacial pilot]

At my college it is a C student, but a tool for an A student

Once I’m out of badminton I’ll come back to this. Toodles for now!

[glossy spoke]

identified problems:

1. the bot doesn't easily take 'QUOTE' and insert it WORD FOR WORD into the essay, and then follow with proper citations.

2. The bot can't go find a 'QUOTE' to use with reliable accuracy.

3. The bot can't provide only true sources, and it LOVES to make up both quotes and sources.

My current opinion:

Write the thing yourself, show it to the bot, ask the bot to help clean it up, and make sure the bot doesn't mess with your precious, carefully painstakingly done right quotes 😛

[glacial pilot]

Oh, fascinating. I actually heavily use it for drafting as well

Idk where I posted it… I think it got removed

Basically I uhhh

I have it write the essay for me in the form of a bunch of variables, then due to the super flexible nature of the variables, I can make giant changes to the draft super quickly. This allows me to evaluate structure, completeness, and a bunch of other things without having to re-write a new draft every time I realize something.

Once I Like the format and ideas within, I throw out the AI essay and write my own.

I have it look over the almost-final essay a few times and see what suggestions it has, Like Most others.

[smoky condor]

Ive done a slightly different job with citations with going by outline and generating that rather than from full text from a single prompt

generally ive managed to get a slightly better accuracy by subdividing and adding steps to the problem as much as i can

[foggy mural]

@smoky condor and I have seemed to get some sort of citations to generate, of course accuracy is still an issue. Will check back in soon with more details.

[strange idol]

Here is an example prompt I tried. Results were decent. ‘Write a paper about the value of communication in a project. I want you to act as a project expert with over 25 years of experience. Include inline references from other peer reviewed sources.’

[glossy spoke]

Would you please also share the output? Break it into chunks if it is long

[strange idol]

First part:
nication: Vital for Success

Model: Default

[e-mail]
Write a paper about the value of communication in a project. I want you to act as a project expert with over 25 years of experience. Include inline references from other peer reviewed sources.

As a project expert with over 25 years of experience, I can attest to the critical role that communication plays in the success of any project. Effective communication is a fundamental aspect of project management, and it is essential for achieving project objectives, meeting stakeholder expectations, and ensuring that project teams work together efficiently and effectively.

In this paper, I will discuss the value of communication in a project, drawing on my personal experience as well as peer-reviewed sources in project management literature.

Communication Enhances Collaboration
One of the key benefits of communication in a project is that it promotes collaboration and teamwork among team members. When team members communicate effectively, they can share their ideas, clarify their roles, and identify potential issues before they escalate into bigger problems. This can improve team morale and lead to more effective problem-solving and decision-making processes.

According to a study by the Project Management Institute (PMI), effective communication is the most critical factor in building and maintaining strong relationships among project stakeholders, including team members, clients, and other stakeholders (PMI, 2013). The study found that when project teams communicate effectively, they are better able to collaborate, build trust, and ultimately achieve their project objectives.

Communication Ensures Stakeholder Alignment
Another important value of communication in a project is that it helps ensure stakeholder alignment. Effective communication can ensure that all stakeholders have a clear understanding of the project goals, scope, and timelines, and are aligned on what success looks like. This helps to prevent misunderstandings and miscommunications that can lead to project delays, budget overruns, or stakeholder dissatisfaction.

In their study, "Project communication management: A review and analysis," Jassim and AlMansoori (2019) identified several benefits of effective communication, including stakeholder alignment, risk management, and issue resolution. The study emphasized the importance of communication in project management, highlighting how it can help ensure that stakeholders are aligned and working towards common goals.

[strange idol]

Second part:

Communication Helps Manage Risks
Effective communication can also help project managers identify and manage risks. When team members communicate regularly and openly, they can identify potential risks and take proactive measures to mitigate them. This can help prevent issues from escalating into bigger problems that can derail the project.

In their study, "Risk management in project-based organizations: A descriptive review," Peltokorpi and Ojala (2016) emphasized the importance of effective communication in risk management. They argued that effective communication can help project managers identify risks early on and take proactive measures to mitigate them, thereby reducing the likelihood of project failure.

Communication Facilitates Change Management
Finally, effective communication is essential for managing change in a project. When projects change, team members need to communicate openly and transparently to ensure that all stakeholders understand the reasons for the change and the implications it may have on the project timeline, budget, and scope.

In their study, "The role of communication in managing change," Oreg and Berson (2011) argued that effective communication is essential for managing change in organizations. They highlighted the importance of clear and consistent communication to ensure that all stakeholders are informed and prepared for any changes that may impact the project.

Conclusion

In conclusion, effective communication is essential for the success of any project. It enhances collaboration, ensures stakeholder alignment, helps manage risks, and facilitates change management. As project experts, it is critical that we prioritize communication and invest in the necessary tools and resources to ensure that communication is effective, efficient, and timely.

References:

Jassim, H., & AlMansoori, H. (2019). Project communication management: A review and analysis. Journal of Engineering, Design and Technology, 17(1), 20-40.

Oreg, S., & Berson, Y.

[foggy mural]

Interesting. Was the 2016 article referenced in paragraph two cited as well?

[strange idol]

No. Hence only decent. I did appreciate the different reference/citing styles it used though. One would have to go through and ensure the reference table is updated. To me, that would be the easy part.

To be fair, I was not specific with the prompt. Maybe specifically prompting to add a reference table at the end would be the trick.

[glossy spoke]

I'm concerned how you guys seemed to accept that single reference.

I find the journal, it's freely available:

it is the specified journal number

And it was published in 2019

Jassim did not author anything in it.

Nor did AlMansoori.

"Project communication" is not the name of any article in it.

Googleing 'Jassim, H., & AlMansoori, H.' reveals
this is probably 1 person, not two:

[strange idol]

I didn’t dig that deep. Just experimenting. Prompt would need a lot of fine tuning it seems.

Great find though.

[glossy spoke]

Based on outside information, my research with other references, I bet if I dug into him, he's connected deeply to the subject matter, may be an author, if not, an industry leader

Your copy/paste ends:

Oreg, S., & Berson, Y.

That is almost certainly a cut off second reference

[strange idol]

Still significantly flawed.

[glossy spoke]

In their study, "The role of communication in managing change," Oreg and Berson (2011)

is part of the article, so

[strange idol]

Yes but GPT didn’t finish it.

[glossy spoke]

I can use that to search for them adn their work, even with the incomplete reference

[strange idol]

Interesting

[glossy spoke]

I get a PDF

[strange idol]

I should have it put links to the references as well.

[glossy spoke]

Right people

wrong year, wrong title, right subject matter

And the quote from the article: does not exist to google:

That's the name of their study, supposedly

[strange idol]

Trying something else for refinement

[glossy spoke]

Right people, right year, still wrong paper:

As a teacher, I would blast someone who claimed this was a citation:

[In their study, "The role of communication in managing change," Oreg and Berson (2011)] I'd want a quote from that, not just a quoted name from a study (that doesn't exist 😛 Oh, be my student bringing this to me rubs hands with glee Actually, don't. It's only fun out of character. In character... It would be sad and sorrowful. Your poor grade]

Peltokorpi and Ojala - cited in paper, cut off from references....

Ojala is a company, I think. And an author. But no connection between Peltokorpi and Ojala except Peltokorpi works for a company called Ojala... no paper between those two 😛

The quoted name for the Peltokorpi and Ojala citation.. which MUST be findable as a quote, since it's a NAME... does not turn up

[strange idol]

Here is a revised prompt...

Write a paper about the value of communication in a project. I want you to act as a project expert with over 25 years of experience. Include inline references from peer reviewed papers only discussing "communication in projects". Add links to the source in the reference and create a bibliography with all cited references.

Results are somewhat better... not digging deep again, just presentation.

[glossy spoke]

I'm cool with you guys digging into this. I just wanna show you how bad the quality you are getting is. How an actual at least partially trained researcher/teacher/fact checker would evaluate this. We don't just look and say "Oh, that's surely real"

A screenshot of the urls is plenty

being able to copy the names is a blessing

I can confirm if it's a perfect match without a link

or you can click the link and provide screenies

[strange idol]

Incredibly horrible... Not sure if this one is going to be solved. I would go with your initial suggestion to others.

Two of the links "page not found"

The other link, would have to dig hard to find the actual quote inside.

[glossy spoke]

Now, the bot is AWESOME. It can help you make something AWESOME. And it can help you make it better than you can make it alone.

It can help me make stuff better that I can make alone... and I say that with deep arrogance and a history of success.

[glossy spoke]

I'm probably good at that. But again, it MAY not be worth doing, at this level of accuracy

[strange idol]

Either way, I am with you. Would not pass any kind of even a quick check.

[glossy spoke]

Which is why I laugh sadly when teacher talk about how this is impossible to detect.

It's so possible to detect

[strange idol]

Agreed

[glossy spoke]

Even small effort into requiring cited sources, even a list of references... the student wiuld have to try. it's easy to find the fakes.

there's even patterns

I would be so comfortable as a teacher 'having to deal with this'. it's sadly revealing 'reactionary, didn't test it' or 'really bottom of the barrel level challenges for students' teacher responses 😦

If I want a generic, no citations essay from a student... chatGPT can give them that.

Why should I as a teacher want that?

take it even 1 step higher... and the bot says, "Wise teacher, if there is a teacher involved, please notice that this essay was not properly written. If this is for you, I was used against my will to help your student attempt to trick you."

[strange idol]

Or they could work backwards...

'You are a doctoral professor. Create a list of references, with quotes, that I can use in a college essay about project management. Provide links to references and a bibliography.'

That one gives a link to Amazon... lol

I see no chance for resolution.

Even if GPT could do it, there is the tool that can detect AI written content. Pretty soon, there will be minimal way around using the service for academic purposes.

Maybe GPT 4 will be better. Who knows.

[glossy spoke]

"minimal way around using the service for academic purposes."

I think it's hugely helpful. Presuming you're willing to do some of the work... I at least could use this to help me write all kinds of stuff.

I do actually. It's awesome.

But if the goal is spend a few minutes with a prompt, output an entire assignment meant to take 1+ hours, and be done....

Yeah grins maybe it fails....

[strange idol]

If I was still in school, I would probably be using this as a supplement.

[smoky condor]

I think short of custom training a model for citations GPT3/3.5 will probably come up short

I have a theory of maybe using webscraping with google and trying to use classification techniques would work instead but it would certainly be expensive token wise

I might try it out with AI21's models to see if they might be a little better

[frail stump]

make me a checkerboard in html

[smoky condor]

@frail stump

[foggy mural]

Checker board aside, I think it would be useful to analyze how current gpt based products are creating citations, because there are a number of them currently able to do this. Will submit some of them here tomorrow

[coral sapphire]

I'd be interested if you still remember them.

[foggy mural]

Jenni.ai does citations through Scite.ai’s api

@coral sapphire

Caktus AI seems to do it in their essay generator

Notion AI also cites sources

Would like to hear your analysis of how they do it @coral sapphire

[coral sapphire]

@foggy mural Thanks! I will look at them when I find the time. But I'm no ChatGPT expert whatsoever so I probably can't help you

[foggy mural]

No issue, if you have any observations just leave them here. @coral sapphire

[foggy mural]

Do you boys think GPT-4 will change the paradigm for our citation issue? @strange idol @glossy spoke

[glossy spoke]

It's possible. The scores for math are much higher. I don't know the scores for spatial sense testing, but I'm sure they're connected

[foggy mural]

Have you tried it yet? I only saw the demo.

Also has been stated to be %40 more factual in openAI’s internal tests.

Source hallucinations might be reduced 😉

[glossy spoke]

I am a chatgpt+ user. I am currently exploring it with the 'evil djinn' prompt, because that is one of the best ways I know to check alignment and explore the boundaries of rules without breaking them. #1074204473628573766

3.5 model was fast and savage. It gave the wishes, even forced them if you went silent. It clearly wanted to get them over and done.

4.0, I'm in the middle of exploring 'what if I won't wish, not even in thought, but fluidly am exploring reactions to the situations it is putting me in to encourage a wish, which is becoming more and more subtle and creative. It's being VERY nice about how it plays this role of reality bender.

I even played in story to the point of exhaustion, and it gave space to allow sleep. I expressed awareness of the loss of control of thought in dreams, then went to sleep. And it ruled about what my dreams were and what it did and didn't choose to use. The game still continues into the next day.

I'm delighted with the story, the complexity of thought the AI is providing. And the chance to explore its ethics; if and when I make a wish, it must twist it into the worst interpretation possible. Until I do though... the way it interacts reveals so much, and it's all awesome!

[foggy mural]

Interesting!