#Healing needs STRONG NERF.

146 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

coarse turtle
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We have seen with many other games how nearly if not all healers in those games, are heavily weakened.

In such a way that to win a battle with them is extremely hard to due.

We see in other games again, that continuous healing is even more controlled as that kind of regeneration gets out of control REALLY quickly.

Ludia, and by extent its new owners, have not listen to this.

They have released and updated several new creatures all with a healing based move set, but none of the balancing that goes with them.

As such it is quite easy to run play against a team of nothing but healers, and not kill one, because of the passive or active moves.

It is getting to the point, that quitting seems like a better idea than the walk through the mud that is healing meta.

I have seen several battles where passive effect healds, are pushing 7000 healing or more by the time the move is done. That is on top of other healing/boosting moves they might already have.

In short stuff that is fierce should not be healing back their entire life, becoming so powerful and durable that even their counter of Cunning can't do ANYTHING to them. And any of the other two classes are just fuel to add more healing.

the only other dinos that boost healing, are already extremely over powered in their own right. Para can heal away almost all damage each turn requiring prefect play using moves that give it weakness to stop it. And the Unique Dilo is even worse, as it has a full powered counter attack, that gets faster each turn you fight it.

Worse still, the buffs we have been seeing, are not just stat and moves fixes, but generally just healing being added on to 'heal' old teams.

Teno for example, now full heals when it faces down threats. So rather than dealing with a slightly weakened versus, it is just ready to go with the same moves. Again, with your second dino.

Kill healing now. It needs to be done for the life of the game.

analog void
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Tbh I don’t like healing now

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Before 2.0, they weren’t meta dominant at all. They were a pretty rare type of enemy to fight against

coarse turtle
# analog void Tbh I don’t like healing now

it was fine on ones like Para, or even Dilo. But now so many have it, that even if you fight you can't kill the teams.

I won't mind it if it was rare, or a select few had it. But both 4 apexes have if. all of which are meta

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11 uniques have it 4-8 of which are meta, not including flocks, almost all of which have some sort of healing move.

analog void
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Moves, Devour, Alert, On Escape, Rally, Swap in, counter attack

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They do fill in the numbers

coarse turtle
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the biggest problems, stem from how healing is linked around attack, like with Dilo.

Most healers in other game, barely have attack power. So to win with them you have to play carefully.

In this Indonemys, can swap in, stun, use its cloak, then hit you for 10,000 plus, and heal 4,500 over 2 turns.

And that is using 2 moves.

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three if you includ the swap in.

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winning or losing in short, should be based on skill, not who can heal more in a battle.

analog void
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Then you got Dilorach and Fum who are basically immortal with their endless healing matchups

coarse turtle
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fum?

analog void
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Fukuimimus

coarse turtle
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ahh, at least it only has 1 healing move. not dilos 2 turn ones. Other.

analog void
coarse turtle
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yeah. I do agree, which was my point, healing needs a nerf and badly.

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try 3 turn cool downs on any main healing move. Period, across the board.

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plus, all healers do not have the ability to resist lockdown at all

analog void
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I’d just reverse the healing to go before the cleanse

coarse turtle
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that is what it will take, to stop them.

So if they are commented to healing, they have to stay and fight, no retreats allowed.

analog void
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If healing is based on Atk, couldn’t it be possible to reduce the healing they receive as well?

coarse turtle
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that would work to, so distraction moves, can have an effect on the amount allowd to heal.

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yeah, only one dino did that for a while, i forget which.

analog void
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Edmontoguanadon did

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Somewhat did

coarse turtle
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i see, personally i am thinking of leaving. And though i am not into the highest levels of pvp over all, i still have nearly 2 full teams of level 30s and several well made raid dinos

analog void
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Back before 2.0

coarse turtle
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because it is no longer fun to run against something, and just have every effort made into a joke, because they heal away all damage done.

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Skoona only beats para and dilo, because resilience strike, then rampage once then spend all their heals.

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don't get me wrong, i like seeing strong dinos. But i only use like para, because it is a nice finisher for Anky Lux

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boa i would still use, if its heal was removed. Because it is one of the best ones for locking down and finishing an enemy.

weak ridge
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Heal and random counter attacks are easily the biggest contributers to the broken state of the game

coarse turtle
weak ridge
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My main issue with full counters is that they're often ludias response to something needing a buff, and even worse is that they work

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The constant heal spam seen on everything is a much bigger problem though and is what makes everything so annoying nowadays

forest ridge
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I disagree that healing itself is a problem. The premier healers in this game, the hadrosaurs (Parasaurolophus Lux, Tuoramoloch, Paramoloch, Edmonto/guanodon, etc.) are almost all unviable and virtually unplayable in their own brackets. If healing was a problem, these dinosaurs would be a problem.

Healing becomes a problem when these abilities are slapped onto hybrid dinosaurs that have access to Armor/shields and/or Distraction (Dilorach and Testacornibus) which hyperscale the healing by almost doubling the net-effective HP returned. And then of course Fierce were recently given access to healing too via Devour.

weak ridge
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That's a good point

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I think it's also the fact that they've been increasing the strength of heals and the number of dinos with them

coarse turtle
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consindering the top dinos, almost all of them have some form of healing.

analog void
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True

weak ridge
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Come to think of it, I'll bet you there are no more than 5 end game dinos without a heal, basically forcing any new dino to be capable of healing or have insane stall potential (Ref and anky lux)

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It just makes the game drag on forever and everything feels impossible to kill without a 10 minute slog

coarse turtle
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right now, 3 of the top 50 teams, are not healing in some shape or form.

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indeed, i used to budget about 3-4 minutes per game, now about 6-10 per game

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IndoT, Anky Lux and Ref

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of those 3, 2 have powerful counter attacks. and can beat ref more often than not.

analog void
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There are counters to healers, but those need to be ridiculously powerful to come close to finishing them off

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And yes there’s crappy healers and busted af healers

weak ridge
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The only counter to heal is one shotting stuff

coarse turtle
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skoona does it, as resilence deal with Para and Dilo.

However, for the other feirce healers, Skoona just had fuel to the fire.

coarse turtle
weak ridge
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Really just indot and Indon

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Mortem and rexy can one shot an opponent, but with all the dodge/distraction/flocks they will probably not be able to do it

analog void
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And ofc Edom

coarse turtle
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I mean look at Tryko's own apex. IT has 3 heals moves.

A swap in full heal, a heal, the speeds and buffs crits. And a heal from devour, which can provide more healing than either of the first 2 moves combined if not negated.

forest ridge
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Right and that's my overall point. The grievance really should be about the other classes getting crazy access to heal, not healing itself.

After all it's not a level 23 Edmontoguanodon that's wiping our level 30 boosted dinosaurs, and that dino has a ton of heal. It's a Dilorach doing it.

coarse turtle
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Dilo needs a attack nerf, along with its counter dropped to about a quarter of its former power.

Plus a one turn or 2 turn wait on its heals, similar to Para

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to be honest i feel healing is becoming more of a crutch, then actually a good game skill

weak ridge
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I think devour heal is fine, it's just that it gets given to creatures that can set up and deal insane damage with one hit, rexy with its attack increase and super high damage and indonemys with a damage boosting counter and cloak make insane heals that add up to at minimum 2k per turn

coarse turtle
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4.5k is the highest i seen from devour life return

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that is more than most rampages used to be

weak ridge
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For something like thylaconyx or albertocevia (which are still broken) devour is not the main problem with them because they can't do 8,000 in a single hit

analog void
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Devour to me is just confusing

coarse turtle
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albertocevia can, just not on it devour moves

weak ridge
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Personally I think devour and cloak should never be paired unless it's a strike move with the heal

coarse turtle
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I think never, period, not even strike moves

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for that matter, never on a strike, as we don't want people to stack healing.

weak ridge
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I think each top tier creature with heal has its own problems rather than heal as a whole, dilo has the broken counter, compso can constantly run and come back while doing insane damage, indonemys can heal to full with a single attack and fukui's heals and damage blocking effects make it almost impossible to kill

analog void
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I’d just think that by making Popsicle’s greater group heal cleanse after the healing it would be easier to handle thereafter with one distraction to reduce the extra heal after

weak ridge
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I think para should be reworked into a more offensive revenge player rather than a swapper with double heals, however tampering with it would mess up a lot of raids

analog void
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Perhaps

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I’d think lowering the first heal would help

coarse turtle
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para... is mostly fine, its cool downs, and not being able to use its instant heal turn one. is what catches it out.

Dilo can use both heals first turn, not matter what it does.

analog void
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Yet again, swap hit heal retreat bugs me

coarse turtle
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that has been the problem for swappers period, from low to upper levels.

the lower levels just add sheilds and weaker heal, plus stun. Versus the upper level having only power, and a bigger heal

weak ridge
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Another problem with heal is that its always paired with other effects to reduce incoming damage with healers like trago having tons of armor and shields while cunnings have dodge and distraction that go with their heals

analog void
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Although devour healing could be more broken if Ludia fix Moros and Thylos

coarse turtle
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do not give them ideas

weak ridge
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I think it was meant not to rally flock members, it's just a case of devour heal being a terrible mechanic for flocks

analog void
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Perhaps

weak ridge
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Similar to how regular heals don't work on flocks but that isn't considered a bug

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Cunnings also shouldn't have heal be a major part of their play style since they should be preserving their health with all the other methods they have which would make it easier for resilients to kill them

coarse turtle
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I think what healers need is their own class. They can have powerful heal moves, but the heavily nerf attack, and health

analog void
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Which is just wildcards lol

coarse turtle
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Tanks should be resilient with armor and hp. but have middling attack

Cunning are fast and distract but lack HP

Feirce have middling HP and low speed but have a lot of power.

Healing has decent speed, but low health and attack.

Wildcards, can have a mix of any of those, but lack resistance. OR on the flip side, have high resistance, but lower over all stats.

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that is how each of the 5 classes should be.

weak ridge
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How would you fit all the flocks, hadrosaurs, and things like rexy and thylaco into the same class and still have it make sense other than them having some kind of heal in common?

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Or would stuff like devour be removed if heal was made into it's own class?

coarse turtle
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remove healing from most, or place them as wild cards.

Rexy should have devour removed, that would fix a lot of its big issues in the meta.

OR make it a mix class of healing and feirce, with a HEAVY hit to devour, going from 60% over 4 turns, to 12% one time.

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this means, you could give ardent say a healing move, but because its return is so small, it would barely effect the games long term

weak ridge
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I don't think heal should be its own class because it can't really exist in a pure form like the other 4 since each healer would have to have elements of another class or only have heal moves which makes them literally pointless other than absorbing hits

coarse turtle
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maybe, maybe not.

Each class already overlaps anyway.

But, giving healers their own class with known weakness's would mean that all others with that framework, would have to be fixed to meet the standards, including any new healers.

weak ridge
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They just don't really have enough to define them as a class, resilients have sheilds,slow,vuln, and armor fierces have shattering,bleed, rend,swap prevention and attack/crits buff cunnings have distraction, dodge, attack increase removal, and speed increase while healers only have one effect grouping together a huge number of different creatures with unique play styles

coarse turtle
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yeah, though that is sometimes all you need.

either way, healers still need a nerf, or a tleast Devour needs a heavy nerf, as does dilo over all

weak ridge
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Honestly devour is the worst of the three heal types and only gets a bad reputation because of rexy and indonemys abusing it

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It's the only one that can be completely negated due to its tie to damage, outside of a few cases it is much less effective than the other 2, only allowing you to barely survive what would otherwise have been a clean kill for an opponent and can also be nullified

coarse turtle
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honestly devour should be a one turn move, at most. Heal from that one attack, and highly reduce the returns. That might fix most of the issue.

Dilo needs several fixes, from delays on one of its heals, an attack nerf, and a nerf to its counter to bring it back into line.

weak ridge
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The only positive devour has is you don't have to sacrifice a damaging attack for a heal but rally still does this better since it's usually on an attack move or several positive effects

coarse turtle
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yeah, flocks are their own issue. Some need a buff as the compy unique. While others need a nerf to their healds

weak ridge
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Rally moves should always have a 3 turn cool down except for a few exceptions like fearless alert and a flock should not have more than one heal even if the second one is a swap in or on escape

coarse turtle
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agreed, the original compy unique followed this. ( i personally would like to see that get a buff to resistance against distraction, but that is for another thread )

weak ridge
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Normal healing also shouldn't be paired with too many positive effects, speed up on shelter and accelerating team heal are alright on their own but fukui having dodge on a priority heal or dilo distracting with its heal are too much and make them very hard to kill

coarse turtle
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You mean dilo has distract, plus its counter which speeds up and hits for full damage, unless distracted.

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because all of that going off near the same time, really hurts most dinos. While others, even a fair bit of apex's just can't take it on in solo

weak ridge
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I agree, a full damage counter with double heals and 1650 damage is impossible to handle without a specific counter

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Another problem that keeps accelerating powercreep is the constant raising of stats, almost 5,000 health and at least 1600 damage is normal now but those stats would have been unbelievable 2 years ago

coarse turtle
weak ridge
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To make it less of a problem devour shouldn't be mixed with damage buffs, especially if it's a rampage although I think thyla's devour is fine because its only an impact and it doesn't have high base damage but it should definitely be less tanky

coarse turtle
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indo Apex is only an impact move as well

weak ridge
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It has the cloak and bait, which can increase its damage by 3x, give a guaranteed crit and it can boost itself by another 50% with bait while thyla only has one damage boosting move

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It also has 300 more base damage

coarse turtle
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indeed. but is my point, impact, is not the problem... sort of, it is everything else. Or the amount that it returns that is the problem.

weak ridge
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The thing is devour requires all of these insane damage multipliers to be broken so I think instead of nerfing or removing the entire feature it should just be kept separate from things like cloak and attack buffs

coarse turtle
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Maybe, or fixed so it only ever heals a % of a creatures health. Then it can still be on cloak, or attack boost dinos.

Say 5-20% then you can even have different strengths.

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this also means even if it does 10k it could never heal more than 15% of its own health. So on a 6k creature at most it could heal would be 1500, rather than 4500

coarse turtle
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So everyone still enjoying all that healing and longer matches?

analog void
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Nope

coarse turtle
minor pond
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realistically from a pvp perspective, there needs to be a healing blocking mechanic to counter healers... for raids, healing is necessary, for pvp, its a broken mechanic that lacks a direct counter...

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a good example of that kind of mechanic is from summoners war where they have a disturb hp recovery negative effect which fully blocks healing... Resistance to that effect could be added to every creature with healers lacking it, allowing other dinosaurs to benefit from healing while allowing healers to have limits placed on how much they can heal... Naturally it would probably be a fierce or wildcard ability as it would be a counter to the mainly resilient healing... just an example and idea of how something could be done...
i do realize that healing is not horrible, but the fact that you can end up completely stalled out by healing and have an insanely long matchup is annoying to say the least... something needs to be done to limit healing in pvp... ive actually purposely lost matches that ive had stall out because we couldnt kill each other, so i threw just to end the madness...

coarse turtle
# minor pond a good example of that kind of mechanic is from summoners war where they have a ...

I have gotten to the point, where if i see a someone playing Dilo, i just start slow playing. It has become a clutch, and unless you have one of a select few counters, you just lose to that. Not that dilo is the only problem healer/devour dino. But it is the first true meta threat did couldn't just be cheesed out like Para has.

Para at least, its heals down back a counter attack, and with most dinos you can bait out its heals to win.

Dilo, you can't do that without as it gets faster, and distracts with a max power counter around 2500 damage, which is just insane.

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In all other games, healing is capped pretty hard, as to keep it from become to over powered. Even in games like Borderlands, where you can gain a lot of life from abilites and equipment, it is only because you can lose all that life in seconds.

In a game like JWA there are very few 1 shot creature, or least were, and some of those one shot wonder have healing as well, which makes them even more annoying when the one shot, heal, retreat to another healing creature.

worthy flint
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tl, dr

Maybe add a Debuff like "50% or 100% healing reduction", that cannot be cleaned and that reduces all healings by 50% or 100%

Also a "reduce max hp" ability would help. Dilo, para, fuku etc could keep their full healing ability, but their Maximum hp are reduced, so they do not fully heal back. Like "reduce max hp in enemy by 10% / 20%" etc

coarse turtle
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Another thought i had just now, which would deal with devour at least. Is a dino that actually nullifies for a counter, and a rampage or impact move. As that then deals with any devour effect period.

I think more dinos should gain this as well, skip that put it on Ardentmaxima, would put it into the meta again, and make it stand out among the other two.

And it isn't like Ludia really cares about typing anyway with how fast they through around healing abilities.

weak ridge
coarse turtle
weak ridge
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I would say the main problem isn't devour heal itself but the insane combinations it gets, fierce devouring cleanse is not an overpowered move but if you put devour heal with cloak or a damage buff+2.5x attack then its an issue

coarse turtle
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to be honest, they need to be able to be completely distracted, plus dodges need to work better so devour can't always steal as much.

You known how cunnings are supposed to work

weak ridge
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Putting distraction resistance on all the recent fierces was probably one of the worst mistakes they've made so far

coarse turtle
weak ridge
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At this point fierces counter cunnings better than resilients do and if tyrannometrodon has distraction resistance then resilients might be completely replaced and made obsolete

coarse turtle
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Yeah. Even IndoT doesn't care about cunnings, because of a cleanse rampage.

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Fierce almsot seemingly has no counter right now. even Anky Lux, as OP as it is, still lost to stuff like Mortem and Thor.

weak ridge
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Can't it kill Thor?

coarse turtle
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yes and no. It depends on Thor's health, as if people boost for health, and not just speed and attack. Thor could survive and make 2 blows to KO it.

weak ridge
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I tested with 26 v 26 and it came down to predictions and luck regarding instant charge, although if Thor crits on group destroyer it can be a lot tougher for lux to out play it

coarse turtle
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yeah. But at least at that point is is more skill and the player.

minor pond
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you guys seem to be missing something basic... anky lux is a resilient class tank, it is by default meant to be hard countered by thor/mortem... the fact that there is even a question as to if it doesnt die indicates how strong anky lux is... resilients should lose to fierce creatures of similar strength because fierce kits are tailored to taking out resilient creatures... if you want to beat a mortem/thor, facetanking them with a resilient is literally the worst method to go about it... either trade a fierce for a fierce, or use a cunning or cunning/fierce...

also, saw your comment about devour... quetzorian is a perfect solution to all your devour problems... i have killed many a rexy with my quetz:P its what i would refer to as a natural counter;) evade the roar and hit it with a nulifying counter, then chip away at it before ending it with a rampage... probably works equally as well against other devouring pains, but honestly, the fact that it works against rexy is just awesome...
as for giving ardentis the nullifying counter, nullifying attacks are more of a cunning ability... i feel like giving ardentis that ability when devour is clearly a fierce ability would go against the combat triangle... certainly you could have wildcards that could have it, but ardentis is the embodiment of resilient, and buffing it to make it counter fierce creatures strikes me as a bad idea... not that i hate it, i like the idea of giving ardentis a counter attack like that, but i do worry about how it would change the meta and how broken it could potentially be...

weak ridge
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In my opinion Thor would fit in among the bottom tier uniques since it's on the same level as indoraptor and dracocerato in terms of unlocking and I was just talking about how fierce are doing the same thing to cunning that anky lux has done with them but even worse considering only a few cunnings are capable of beating giganyx and rexy

minor pond
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Regarding thors components rarity, that’s a non issue. An apex vs a unique of an opposing class is still at a technical disadvantage if similar level and boosts. Regarding giganyx and rexy, they are broken outliers imo, giganyx is absolutely crazy and rexy is a pain. Quetzorian is effective against rexy, not sure about giganyx, I would need to do a few battles to see how that works out, but I would think if you have a similar level and boosts, quetz might pull off a win there. Honestly, the biggest problem I am seeing is they rebuilt the combat system from the ground up to make an effective combat triangle and then proceeded to complicate it by adding abilities that fly in the face of the triangle and/or have multiple/varied effects that are overpowered compared to older Dino’s. This is of course normal for games to do. We are starting to see updates to older Dino’s to keep them relevant, and as the meta shifts, there will likely be kit modifications and/or new abilities to deal with kits like giganyx and rexy. They are overpowered… for the moment. Give it a few months and we will be nostalgic for when we thought they were broken lol.

coarse turtle
# minor pond you guys seem to be missing something basic... anky lux is a resilient class ta...

Really? so tell me how Quetz has become a meta pick to counter all the new Unquies and Apexes.

there is a reason i would give Ardentmaxima that ability.

Because all the current classes are not really a class, they are basically wildcards which can do anything distract, break shields, heal, slow, dodge, and with immunities and armor. Indo, should be a wild card.

So by all right's Ludia doesn't care about what classes mean unless it is in the lower ranks.

So saying the tank, should get the ability to nullify its counters, seems prefectly normal for Ludia's line of thinking.

coarse turtle
minor pond
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There is a big difference between quetz and ardent, ardent has a massive hp pool, moderate damage, and a semi decent kit for taking on flocks and other cunning creatures. Nullifying counter would remove any chance to take it on without fierce. A nullifying ability sure, but a counter? No, that’s too strong for that stat block. Quetz specializes in a certain style of combat which involves anticipating opponents actions. Giving something like ardent that ability would let it facetank hits to secure kills. No skill. It would just end up being a resilient Thor. Is that what you want? That sounds absolutely broken to me.