Research Dungeon

[barren nexus]

no OL gear

another very strange problem with Brid

If you start the battle and never take damage and then use her burst

....it doesn't launch the second hit

but it clearly worked when I started the battle with noise and casted noise's healing burst

[sharp herald]

can you try this with soline max hp requirement? Afraid that the new patch did something to brid's burst

[barren nexus]

yeah I can

I confirmed that rapunzel as B1 also fixed the brid problem

I have a sneaking suspicion that they fucked up and now characters at the start of battle

[sharp herald]

inb4 all nikke starts at 99% hp

yeah

[barren nexus]

do not have "100% current hp"

like their physical value will be full

but the current percentage HP

might be wrong

[molten robin]

alternatively, it could just be that some form of interaction has to take place for it to check and store an hp value

[barren nexus]

that's what I'm thinking tho

in fact

it might NOT be broken for soline given that her S2 procs

but I'm trying it now

yeah I think soline's fine

brid is the one who is bugged

[molten robin]

are you positive brid was full health?

[barren nexus]

yes because I never shot and I checked after the burst

I'll try again just to be absolutely positive

[molten robin]

I've been hit behind cover by 1 damage attacks, but if you checked it should be right

[barren nexus]

yeah I'm aware that's why I double checked the amount

yep brid is 100% bugged

it's a bug where if she is not healed, she will not be considered "max hp"

[molten robin]

@barren nexus even if the jackal buff was not consumed, it actually specifies it doesnt apply to "additional damage"

which all these secondary hits say

[barren nexus]

ah

they added that eh

yeah I think devs were smoking

some weed

when they made that burst

cause it's dogshit

[molten robin]

I mean it's worse than liter's buff while being 1000% more niche lol

was just poor design

[barren nexus]

it's probably

worse than crit buffs

tbh

also I have a mystery I need to solve

hmmm

wait

math does in fact check out

[barren nexus]

also has anyone done research on vesti's burst?

I can't get the numbers I see on screen to line up with the burst's description

Yulha's additional burst with the Calm status also looks like it deals twice as much damage as it says

ah uh

nevermind

I got the low roll to make sense

the high roll doesn't tho...

ah nevermind I got it, for some reason only 1 missile container benefits from her S2 ATK proc on the initial cast

seems like ~240 hits is a reasonable estimate for the maximum number of times Vesti's missiles can hit?

[jaunty island]

hello peepo's

this conversation has interested me

[barren nexus]

@jaunty island Snow White's S2 cannot be activated by normal attacks, so the description presented in this guide is misleading (https://nikke.gg/detailed-guide-for-snow-white/). Been wanting to tell you that one for like a month now.

[dull zenith]

@barren nexus do you mind collating your main takeaways from all that testing and research somewhere? Maybe #1046549179918458890 or #research-results ?

[jaunty island]

Oh, hm. Maybe I didn't put that in specifically.
That's why I mentioned that you are only able to activate s2 passive under 15 sec intervals and when after the missile from s2 passive lands

Even has a lil video

Unless I'm missing where you're looking at

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/669468967512834048.png?v=1&size=64

[barren nexus]

This skill activates when you have dealt an instance of damage during full burst. It may have good synergy with her burst however, as said, the skills passve does not activate unless a single instance of damage have been dealt after full burst activation. This renders this skills passive useless unless activate full burst at around 0:15 marks (0:15, 0:30, 0:45), and after the active part of the skill “[Target] Deals 144.73% of ATK as damage.” has landed on a target. Therefore technically fulfilling the requirements of dealing an instance of damage to activate the critical buff. If you time this on clearing campaign bosses, it greatly reduces the amount of RNG needed to score a core crit hit which is most likely to down any boss mob if used for campaign purposes.

[barren nexus]

yeah this section is like trying super hard to imply that does not activate unless a single instance of damage have been dealt after full burst activation is the activation condition, and then it says that the correct activation method is technically fulfilling the requirements of dealing an instance of damage to activate the critical buff. which is misleading. The only way to activate the skill is to be in full burst in the method described: activate full burst at around 0:15 marks.

There is no other way to activate that skill

at all, because snow white does not activate this buff by normal attacking in any way.

[barren nexus]

yeah main takeaways would be:

1. Additional damage components of B3 bursts dynamically snapshot Nikke buffs at the moment of damage. Initial damage components snapshot buffs at the time of cast. Significance: Additional damage components benefit from buffs that are gained mid-animation, such as when entering/at the beginning of full burst buffs (e.g. Drake, Privaty, Maxwell), the full burst modifier (+50% damage), or any active buff they gain mid animation (such as Dolla's S1, Yulha's S2). Similarly, the reverse is true: losing a buff mid animation will mean the additional damage component will no longer benefit from that buff (such as Dolla's S1 expiring, Jackal's burst). All of this was explicitly confirmed in the various screenshots above using the aforementioned Nikkes.
2. Initial damage always snapshots during the moment the burst is cast. This means they do not benefit from buffs that activate at the beginning/when entering full burst, such as Drake's, Privaty's, and Maxwell's S1. It also does not benefit from the full burst modifier, or buffs gained/lost mid-animation such as Dolla's S1. If true, this means animation delay is irrelevant to any initial damage of a burst. This can be seen with Scarlet burst and Laplace's "max damage" hit. This means in the vast majority of cases, the initial damage component of a burst will do much less damage than its additional damage component.

B3 Nikke's with additional damage components confirmed to be affected: Yulha, Maiden, Brid, Power, Isabel, Soline. Nikke's suspected to be affected, but were not tested: Julia, Guillotine.

Possible bugs found:

1. Brid's burst's additional damage component does not activate even if she has not taken damage the entire fight. This is fixed when Brid is healed, even though she is already at full HP. Hypothesis is that her current HP % is a cached number which is not updated unless her HP changes in some way. More testing required.
2. Yulha's burst's additional component seems to do twice as much damage as is written on the tooltip. To clarify: normally Yulha's burst hits twice at half its tooltip damage (similar to multi-hit bursts like Drake, Privaty), but the additional damage component hits twice at the full tooltip damage, which would imply twice as much tooltip damage total is inflicted. More testing required to confirm.

Misc. stuff confirmed:

1. Scarlet's crit rate buff on burst affects the burst itself. (sample size of 27 hits)
2. Isabel's burst does not benefit from the subsequent stage of her S1 activated by said burst (neither initial nor additional).
3. Isabel's burst's additional damage component(s) benefits from the damage taken debuff applied by it, but the initial damage portion does not (verified with the second stage damage, not enough time to verify the third stage).
4. Drake's S1 buff applies to initial damage components, but Maxwell and Privaty' S1s do not. EDIT: debunked by further testing. Drake's S1 function's the same as Maxwell and Privaty's S1 and do not apply to initial damage components.
5. Soline does not have the same max HP bug as Brid.

[jaunty island]

ah alright

i'll correct it so it's a bit clearer

[cyan sedge]

Yea been trying to trigger it after yesterdays update. Seems to work fine. Mightve been fixed or just not a consistent bug. The KR post was dated on the 13th.

[molten robin]

The videos I referenced were from the last UR

Must have just been an inconsistent big or was under certain conditions

[dull zenith]

Is there a place where gold like this could go so it's findable and won't get lost in an active chat channel?

[atomic gyro]

Pinning before we move it to it's forever home

[barren nexus]

I feel like I'm wrong on the drake thing btw

been retesting it, maybe I was high last night and mistaked E. dmg bonus for drake's buff

so I think Drake's buff is prob the same as privaty, maxwell, etc.

yeah I think I got tripped up bc of my drake's OL bonus

Drake, Privaty, Maxwell prob function the same

and never boost initial damage

I also confirmed today that the third hit of Isabel's burst does indeed follow the rules I laid out in that pin, which I proved from the 2nd hit already.

Isabel's sync'd attack should be 32880.6, she's under Lv5 S1 + Lv4 B, Liter Lv10 S1 + Lv10 B, Drake Lv7 S1, Dolla's Lv5 S1 + Lv5 S2, and her own

32880.6 = Rank 17 Affection + LB2 + Lv5T9 Helm + Lv4T9 Chest + Lv5 T9 Gloves + Lv3 Cube + Lv33 Pilgrim Recycle via 21090 Base ATK at Lv200 (inferred from her profile on Nikkepedia, which displays her ATK at Core MAX, Lv200, No Group A or Group B bonuses)

Therefore that first hit (61456) matches for the formula of initial damage for a Lv4 burst, not benefitting from Drake or Dolla's S2:

3rd hit (303645) matches for the formula of additional damage by gaining the bonus from Drake S1, Dolla S2, the FB bonus, and Isabel's own Lv4 B damage taken effect

This is using the known defense value for SI bosses, 13121

I think this shows that this is a pretty good methodology for being able to analyze SI videoes

Might make a python script or google doc to calculate this stuff more easily

Isabel's burst takes like fucking 2.4s to apply

so there's pretty significant misalignment with her damage up buff and FB time

[wintry ravine]

what was the takeaway with Guilty's damage copy?

does she copy like scarlets buffed up damage after she stacks or no?

[molten robin]

no

base only

since sin acts differently, and attack is not a displayed stat in the characters sheets when you hit esc, we can speculate that attack buffs are only referenced during damage calculation, and they don't have a dynamic attack stat, unlike health

[wintry ravine]

ah cool, so it practically doesn't matter who you pair guilty with

[molten robin]

it matters in terms of who has the most OL gear/cores

but otherwise no

[wintry ravine]

I suppose that's one thing you could do to maximise guilty damage.. have one attacker with attack plus on all 4 OL gear. Though I guess that's something you'd want on virtually every attacker anyways

[molten robin]

well attack+ doesnt matter - it applies the buff after the fight starts

[wintry ravine]

ohh I see

[molten robin]

I just meant having the OL gear for the base stat increase they offer

[wintry ravine]

so just level 5 OL gear for the pure stats

👍

[native bane]

max core bond 40 attacker with +5 OL helmet/torso/arms

and a max lvl cube

can't think of more ways to increase base atk

max recycling room level

[cyan sedge]

I'm not so sure about that because it seems skills that target allies with the highest attack take into account atk buffs. Like if set Scarlet to cover and let Rupee stack her atk buffs, Rupee will receive Rapunzel's S2 buff. if I set Rupee to cover and let Scarlet stack her atk buffs, then Scarlet gets buffed instead.

[molten robin]

yea that could be, I've never tested targeting for those

which makes it more interesting that guilty only copies base, but the answer is probably the simplistic, they coded it that way

[cyan sedge]

Seems that bastion cube's ammo refill from lvl 3 onwards can be wasted if you trigger it when your ammo is near full capacity. Like for example with clip RL and lvl 3 cube, if the 10th shot happens at 6/6 ammo, it'll only stay at 6/6 for that 1 shot instead of 2

[molten robin]

Does a transformed shot like SW count for the 10 shots?

[cyan sedge]

I dont have SW unfortunately, so no way to test it myself

[cyan sedge]

ok tested with Maxwell's burst. the shot doesnt trigger it

[barren nexus]

can give you an additional lead on this: it is somehow also affected by the ordering of units. e.g. in some cases, miranda on the far right can fail to ever buff a character on the far left, even if they are the highest attack character. similarly liter cover repair is also affected by ordering.

I haven't looked into this behavior in details but I've seen the issue repeatedly occur during this UR

[barren nexus]

has anyone done any testing on post-Modernia fix if the OL gear hit rate buff triggers S2?

[final pebble]

it was already done by Rayel, they have already fixed it

[barren nexus]

I meant if the OL buff by itself will trigger S2, not if it gets in the way

I know they fixed it getting in the way and preventing the trigger

[final pebble]

Yes, i'm forget Rayel post it somewhere

[still drift]

Not sure why we have to keep proving the same thing over and over

#1042458757843656774 message

@barren nexus

[barren nexus]

[final pebble]

https://tenor.com/view/vb-gif-25663467

[dull zenith]

Because this channel is a piss poor format to memorialize or search for learnings cuz everything gets lost into history once it’s above the fold.

Pretty obvs if you ask me, and it’s not Tsukino’s fault

[atomic gyro]

The thing is, it's more of a free form format, the evidence is all over the place, so there's not really a way to organize and stuff it somewhere like #research-results

[dull zenith]

Yeah I’ve been asked Tsukino at least to collate some of his findings somewhere else, like #research-results

Not enough momentum. Takes too much opt-in on a person by person basis

Not practical

Anyway I’m outta here before I get banned

[pearl parcel]

Did smth happened?

[formal inlet]

Idk he wants people to collect their data and post in research results, maybe thought he was coming off as too aggressive

[molten robin]

are abnormals max 30 bond like non-pilgrims?

[whole fox]

good queztion : we dunno

[molten robin]

well certainly some know

[whole fox]

likely most all the gift is used up so it will take awhile to be known so

mayube next mnth>

[molten robin]

I was thinking something more akin to miners

surely some of them know or can find out

hence why it was asked here

[still drift]

[molten robin]

guess I can ask in the datamine channel

[tender summit]

Ask the whales

[round bloom]

It's max at 30, same as non-pilgrim

[molten robin]

Thanks

[frosty shore]

what cube to use on midernia if you have hit rate on OL gear then

[tender summit]

Bastion

[acoustic cedar]

multiplicative

[wicked whale]

Anyone got calculations on Vesti burst after being fixed?

[native bane]

has anyone tested if skills sync to lvl 10 in coop?

it says that it does but many people say that it doesn’t

I have a bond 1 skill 1/1/1 snow white so if anyone has an invested Snow White in GLOBAL we could easily compare to know if skills matter

we’d need 3 other people though

[still drift]

Why don't you just take a 0 brain approach?
You invest in a skill on a R unit for a few manuals, and a friend brings the same unit.
Just check the CP in unit selection.

Skills affect CP.

[native bane]

yeah thats what I did

and skills do change CP in the character selection menu

[still drift]

There ya go.

[native bane]

but at the same time the game says that skills are syncd to lvl 10

[still drift]

Where?

[native bane]

i'll get a screenshot in a minute

[still drift]

||inb4 this is another shit translation||

[native bane]

here (line at the botton)

so the game is contradicting itself basically (is that even the right word?)

which is why I wanted to actually test it

actually there’s the same line in the Nikkepedia

so I'm thinking what they mean by "synced to level 10" is that the display shows lvl 10 but thats it

and now it would make sense that it increases CP

[still drift]

They ripped that entire UI from Nikkepedia

So I think its just moot

Give it a test tho

[molten robin]

Yea skills are definitely not 10 in coop

[still drift]

^

[molten robin]

I can tell from my Alice charge speed

I'd have like 99% or 100% charge speed if skills were 10

And I don't

[still drift]

Himeno with 0 investment, but reap all benefits

[native bane]

now I can cope with my measly 20M score

[astral sage]

is this true?

[tender summit]

It's just foolproof method for shotgun high spreading

If you can do high pinpoint dmg, you can clean up in 1 magazine

[meager elbow]

i always aim at middle circle first with modernia and destroy it normally

[light rain]

Looks like that's the actual hitbox to me

[final pebble]

[cyan sedge]

well its better than unkillable circles i guess

[still drift]

Aim issue

[astral sage]

is that true for both p2 and p3?

[light rain]

I didn't test P3

[atomic gyro]

No wonder I can never fucking get phase 2 circles done

[molten robin]

yes

didnt record but observed the same hitbox issue, hitting approximately center was destroying the bottom middle circle

unsure about top middle

[astral sage]

https://youtu.be/xY0ISkyPoEw

hmm?

Imm so confused

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BapFXkWxia0&ab_channel=Kosmiu

[jaunty island]

Can I steal this video

For nikke.gg purposes

[tender summit]

Explaination about bastion cube ammo boost calculation method

@cold flint

[cold flint]

@tender summit feels like youre just looking for someone to show this

Stop bugging me with this, i know how good bastion is over wingman

[light rain]

Yeah use it for whatever. I have it at higher quality of you want but I won't be around for about half a day from this message

[jaunty island]

No worries, I think this is fine already

Thanks

[formal inlet]

I'm not 100% sure of it atm, but I think you get 4 or 5 re-energy if you wait for outpost 100% collection

[light rain]

I was trying to test differences with cubes on sugar and I forgot she had a reload speed passive when hit.

I did confirm that 9 ammo units get stuck in a loop with bastion cube though

[clear vector]

could you elaborate?

[light rain]

if you start with a mag that's 9, you'll get the proc when your second mag is 8/9, which puts you at 9/9 even if you get a refund of more than 1 from having level 3 + bastion cube. The next mag will do the same exact thing, since each mag from then on is 9+1.

it will probably break the loop if you have something that changes mag size like liter, but it's possible it will enter that loop again

[cyan sedge]

RL and SR will also waste the bastion cube upgrade every 4th proc assuming regular mag size of 6

[tender summit]

Considering end game, you will invest a lot on ammo size

Like get multiple 60%+ ammo buff?

[light rain]

Eventually yeah

RL and SR could also run into having 9 ammo depending on OL rolls. I don't really think it's a huge deal to have 9 ammo with bastion, just something to keep in mind

[formal inlet]

Ok I was a bit wrong but this is how it works

For every hour after your outpost collection reaches 100%, you get 1 Re-Energy

This is after normal collection before 100%, no Re-Energy

This is outpost collection 5 minutes after it reaches 100%

This is outpost collection 1 hour after it reaches 100%

So yeah uhh, I guess there is a very minor compensation for every hour you leave the outpost at 100% 💀

[formal inlet]

Ok yeah, @pearl parcel SI forced synchro lock seems to be working fine.

Tested by using privaty on gravedigger SI on damage taken

At level 199(first image):
Barely survives at 10% hp remaining after one hit on phase 2

At level 1(second image):
Barely survives at 9% hp remaining after one hit on phase 2

[pearl parcel]

Damage taken as damage taken, but what about the damage given?

Also my point as testing 160 units vs 199/200, not 1

Also no manufacture gear involved

[formal inlet]

I mean, if its working at 1, it would at 160

[formal inlet]

So your point was that it's actually the attack that gets the boost when comparing 160 and 200?

[pearl parcel]

Yeah but the discrepancy in the damage being done to the boss is big

How tf after I made my nikkes at 200

I could do Modernia node 9

and before I was doing node 8 and run out of time

That's what I am trying to test and prove

Something is not right on their sync in SL

I need to start a fresh account

[formal inlet]

Yesterday when I got to 200 it also felt like I was doing more damage

But then today I thought that I kinda did upgrade skills and gear was diff from before, so it must've been that

[pearl parcel]

I had the same gear that's the thing. Hobo was with me when I was doing some runs

[formal inlet]

I mean 5 days since you last tackled modernia

Best way to test it is to have 5 nikkes at 160 and then immediately bump all of them to 200. Which would need someone currently Hardstuck at 160 💀

[pearl parcel]

I shouldn't have rushed to 205 so eagerly

💀

Mb

I was so happy

[formal inlet]

I still think it's working as intended, it must be that you got good maybe

[molten robin]

I've used lvl 1 characters to clear SI bosses before

[pearl parcel]

How did it go? and the gear used?

[molten robin]

I mean it was fine?

[pearl parcel]

But I was mostly interested in characters having the same skill and gear

before and after the 160 wall

[molten robin]

like I didnt put rapunzel on synchro for a long time

[pearl parcel]

being broken

[molten robin]

so to be specific, your concern is what? characters are not being set to 200?

[formal inlet]

I've never had much of an issue on modernia
But I can say one thing for sure. blacksmith can have a good amount of variation in damage done if you don't play properly. 8-9 mil. A while back, when Miko and me both were struggling on node 8 BS while doing 60 mil damage, I sometimes had runs where I did as much as 51 with full 3 minute runs

[pearl parcel]

Yeah the stats are not synced and they use the stats from the normal nikke squad

Even though the CP is being shown that it's 30k in the SI

[molten robin]

that's trivial to disprove

give me 30s

[formal inlet]

Yeah I mean

I think this was the best way to disprove it imo 💀
Since if hp and Def stats aren't changing, very doubtful that atk stats are

[molten robin]

lvl 1, no gear, R unit

she'd be doing 1 damage if she were not being syncrod up by SI

and her health is far higher

[pearl parcel]

It's still doesn't prove how I pass nodes easily right now, by having the same gear as before with the same skills.

I've told the test needs to be 160 units, with using the same gear, no tier 9 manu.

[molten robin]

so you disagree that this unit is being synched to lvl 200 in my example here?

[pearl parcel]

You only proved a unit with no gear whatsoever, no skill involved.

That's all I see

You didn't prove a full comp of 160 with at least 5/5/5 skills, and tier 9 gear upgraded to a certain degree vs at least a 199/200 team with same specs.
It doesn't prove the fact that I am doing more damage in every interception.

[molten robin]

you have not made a specific assertion about how your observation (which has not been shown) could have a basis in mechanics

that I have seen

what you're asserting is counter to what I have simply proven

in fact, give me a bit, I can take it a bit further

[molten robin]

found someone who is syncro 200 to slot product 86 for me:

his hp is identical to mine in the ss, both of us being recycle 80 general and 29 role, he's 28 for missilis and I'm 29, so add 25 attack

doing the math, the boss has 13121 defense known from datamine, and I would have expected 14786 attack if I were synchro 200

14786 - 13121 = 1665

with no bonuses present since I havent used any buffs, and my cursor isnt blue, the damage calc is simply 1665 * 0.2316 (shotgun modifier is 231.6%, divided by 10 for each pellet) = 385.614 expected, observed: 386

so my product 86, who is lvl 1 outside of SI, had identical attack and health matching her synchro 200 stats

"I think I did more damage" is not an observation, an observation would be presenting screenshot or video evidence of differing damage numbers, which allows us to dissect the circumstances involved and either prove or disprove specific claims

[light rain]

did you upgrade cubes from union raid?

[astral sage]

I aimed at where the circles are and it was fine (for the past 2 GDs)

[meager elbow]

It is also fine to not aim at the mid circle at all

[wraith rose]

Oh that's some bullshit. No wonder my runs today felt harder than usual...

[light rain]

Can anyone with an ultrawide monitor +PC client try something? Have nikke set to window mode and when you're opening it from the launcher try to drag to the top of the screen to full screen while the shift up logo is happening (before the nikke loading screen)

[formal inlet]

Has anyone tested if viper skill 1 activates in PvP?

[meager elbow]

It is not activate

2nd pic is helm buff on her. 3rd pic is what buff icon looklike

[formal inlet]

Thanks for testing

Seems like D is mid then

[final pebble]

or maybe just hope they fix it

[formal inlet]

There's nothing to fix I suppose, it's just that these 2 are meant for pve

The skill description says so at least

[atomic gyro]

This is the Research dungeon, not questioning center

[tiny current]

yes i need lorax to pull out the code

idk

i guess if theres any

[coral junco]

anyone know AR how many shots per sec?

[cyan sedge]

I think it was 10 shots per sec

[astral sage]

anyone here has a level 5 cube?

was wondering if 8% element damage bonus is additive or multiplicative to the base 10%

[molten robin]

additive

[astral sage]

so 10 becomes 18? nice

thought it’s gonna be 8% of the 10%

[molten robin]

fortunately not

[astral sage]

nice, so it’s worth levelling bastion to 5 and put it on modernia to slaughter train even more

[astral sage]

gonna post this pre-emptively.
sakura’s damage reduction is before or after def/other damage calculation?

if it's before, it'd be crazypants good

[meager elbow]

Did they correct GD red circles?

[tender summit]

Nope

Bottom circle auto disappear for me on GD, so the hitbox problem still there

[light rain]

Looks like there's a bug where nikkes wont fire if you switch right when they run out of ammo. Forcing cover seems to fix

[astral sage]

good find

[tender summit]

Can I take this video to send a report?

[light rain]

Yeah

It's not showing how to produce the bug though, just that they are bugged

[tender summit]

It's common problem so I can report

[light rain]

If only they made stopping non-controlled Nikkes a feature instead of a bug

[vernal coral]

Encountered bug in SI Train with Scarlet locking up as well - may be similar, though I didn't switch to trigger it

[light rain]

The bug I'm running into appears to happen when I hold shoot (left click) as I swap. I seem to be able to avoid it by releasing shoot before switching. Maybe I can use it on purpose for sniper enemies and other targeted attacks.

I'm not sure if the info is available anywhere but it seems like the change between plat and gold on NA for the UR is somewhere around above 560 and below 600

[formal inlet]

There has been a classic Train bug since day 1, which is also explained by this video
https://youtu.be/t2Pc8cEyRgc

Timestamp 2:13

It's different to the bug qwertys has mentioned

[light rain]

Anyone happen to have an NA account that isn't in a union? I kind of want to see if you can get UR rewards if you join during the calculation period

[cyan sedge]

I dont think u can even join or be kicked from unions during the raid period

[light rain]

you can join during raid period, you just can't leave

afaik the people who joined my union midway last time got the rewards, but I wanted to see if it was also given to people joining during calculations

[tender summit]

You can't recruit or leave for entire raid and calculation phase

[light rain]

You can join during raid, I've had two people join this raid https://i.imgur.com/DfIRcfO.png https://i.imgur.com/REpzZvU.png

[light rain]

After trying more stuff it looks like you can cover other individual Nikkes reliably with the bug. If you switch to a Nikke and switch back without releasing the button to fire they get stopped so you can take cover from attacks on them without stopping the rest of your Nikkes. To fix them you can either switch back to them without holding down fire, or cover/uncover all Nikkes. https://puu.sh/JDW3i/93801626b8.mp4

[molten robin]

Well that's a result of the current bug though

[light rain]

yep, at least it's an option until they fix it

[formal inlet]

What's the fire rate of machine guns?

[wicked whale]

No. of frames = no. of bullets 1:1
So 60 bullets per second at max speed

[wispy sequoia]

that is not true

[wicked whale]

I heard it from someone else who tested. PC client

[molten robin]

I can't attest to the locking of 1 bullet per frame, but my max firerate does appear to be 59-60

it appears to match 1:1 in a test at max fps, but I'd have to perform tests at lower fps values to see if that sticks and isn't just coincidence, but given that we know there's a strong relationship between fps and modernia fire rate, it seems very reasonable

[wicked whale]

Tried with 30 FPS cap. Fire rate halved to 30

[cyan sedge]

yeah its 60

[light rain]

According to someone who joined my union on April 7th, they got our union's rewards for the UR. I'm not sure if this is what would normally happen or if it happened because of the delay.

[barren nexus]

dan and I did testing on this, the end_rate_of_fire stat is the wound up MG stat and these rate of fires are all in units of 60, AKA the true MG attack speed is 70. We verified these assumptions by comparing with AR, SMG, and SG, and all of them came out to the expected values at 60 FPS/30 FPS respectively

These are the values we got:

the first row, Rate of Fire, is the actual datamined value

the rest of the values are what we predicted and verified in tests

[meager elbow]

When Alice is using burst with 100% charge speed does manual control provide more dps than auto?

#1096700998812172388 message

from maincord animation cancel?

[formal inlet]

https://youtu.be/21AEtr0OYx8

In short, Yes.

Lol, whatever that thread is, I know what he's trying to imply but he is going about it the wrong way

[meager elbow]

The same for alice 100% charge speed? can you even do it

[formal inlet]

I would take this to questioning center, there isn't much research to do about it

[formal inlet]

Yeah, bht for Alice, it's extremely higher damage because it goes to Max charge instantly.

[coral junco]

2.5+1(-1.5s)+2.5+1(-1.5s)+2.5+1(-1.5s)+5(-1.5s)
Assume that the calculations start from the full burst ( to compare with Liter )
With Privaty, and assume that the loading time is 1s
The total time is about 15.5s
About -6s CD
Liter skill1
First time 2.34
Second time 5.04
The third time 8.21
Trigger every 13~15 seconds at least.

It seems that before Liter is fully stacked with skill1 , dorothy's skill 1 is pretty good

[wispy sequoia]

this is assuming 30 ammo on Dorothy no? was there a confirmation on that already

[coral junco]

yes with privaty

[wispy sequoia]

ah okay

[coral junco]

Comparison between Dorothy and Pepper (fake support but real firepower type)
Pepper SG 1.5 shots per second
15*231% = 3,465%
burst skill LV10 1237%
3465%+1237%+160% = 4,862%
Pepper 10 seconds shot 15 rounds 3465% + burst 1237% + 2 skills every 10 seconds 160%
10 seconds about 4,862% of the attack power damage

And Dorothy just a burst skill is already 8900%
Not counting the second skill and general attack damage yet

But it should be noted that Pepper's skills are calculated by the current attack power
Dorothy's burst skill is not sure if it is calculated by the current attack power

[barren nexus]

I rec you do calcs with a 14-16s burst cycle as the assumption

but generally speaking if pepper lands only 80% of her pellets, then before effective range/core hits/pierce/S1/attack buffs Dorothy normals+S2 will be equivalent to pepper normals+B in terms of personal multiplier/s

[coral junco]

im saying dorothy can do way more dmg than pepper

almost double

[barren nexus]

yeh but I'm saying Dorothy will match pepper's damage even without factoring in the burst

[coral junco]

oh got you

👍

[barren nexus]

just looking at normals and S2 under burst alone, dorothy is already pumping

S2 in particular is strong because unlike pepper burst, S2 will proc under FB bonus

S2 will do more damage than a pepper burst basically

[coral junco]

true

I just hope dorothy's burst can calculated by the current attack power

[molten robin]

not that many attack buffs can affect her, realistically you're looking at OL buffs or time-based attack buffs like dolla

[coral junco]

then the limit ccan be higher

[molten robin]

since if it does use current attack, surely it snapshots when cast

[barren nexus]

We have to check but that's the most probable case in my mind

[molten robin]

but being able to benefit from attack OL lines would be big

[barren nexus]

yep

ATK would be the main priority for her if it is the case

well

[molten robin]

though OLing dorothy can be a nightmare since max ammo is horrendous for her

[barren nexus]

real main prio is to reroll OUT of ammo lines

but obv just doing napkin math

boosting a cap from like

3.2 mil by 40% is huge

considering you're getting like 11 of these, would've been 12 if it wasn't hyper delayed

[tender summit]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PW3DuNWf04-vmHdQn-qZ1HEgRoCBGCGNoJPi4LQ_3kU/edit?usp=drivesdk

@barren nexus

Waiting for next patch so I can update Dorothy and Rei stats

Formula all working perfectly with ig stats

[barren nexus]

I wanna confirm why the burst capped at 1.8mil in the vod they showed

[coral junco]

burst skill only lv1 i guess

[barren nexus]

I looked at the 280 stats for sakura at MLB and min cap should've been 3.2 mil

[tender summit]

You should consider why they need 2 burst cycle for 16m hp boss

[molten robin]

No gear was my guess

[barren nexus]

S1 and S2 were definitely lv10

I checked the numbers

math checked out

[coral junco]

lv260 support type atk is already 36000

[barren nexus]

also

the tooltip showed the burst at lv10

[coral junco]

[barren nexus]

as in the tooltip that appears when you press a targeted burst

[coral junco]

dat fuk

[barren nexus]

you can see this when you burst with viper

[coral junco]

then that is weird

[barren nexus]

Dorothy's tooltip clearly said 8900 cap in the vod

[coral junco]

how is that lv280 180m

[barren nexus]

1.8m

but yeah

[coral junco]

ya sry

[barren nexus]

1.8m doesn't make sense

the min should've been 3.2m with those stats at complete base

[coral junco]

🤔

[barren nexus]

sooooo def shenanigans

and with no attack buffs on that team

I can't reverse engineer ATK/DEF

[coral junco]

that's mean she got only 20000 atk

[molten robin]

I don't put too much stock in footage like this, who knows what test patch this was on

[barren nexus]

obv but the tooltip did say 8900

[molten robin]

Tooltip doesn't mean actual

[barren nexus]

I'm saying the vod showed the tooltip

[molten robin]

I know

[barren nexus]

and the tooltip did say 8900

[molten robin]

I'm saying in game tooltip doesn't mean real lol

[barren nexus]

so at the minimum they worked the tooltip in, so there's a decent chance it is real

after all these values are in the table

[coral junco]

[barren nexus]

and the tooltips are created by looking up via the table

[molten robin]

And yet we've had issues with bursts not going past lvl 1 before...

[coral junco]

1.8M is like nothing for a 280
something is wrong here

🤔

[molten robin]

Hence my point about who knows what patch they did this on, it could be an older internal patch and have issues

[barren nexus]

Obv but it's still something to think about if I could've found a way to reverse enginner ATK

[coral junco]

or it's a test server version Dorothy

[barren nexus]

well tbh

it's not that hard to reverse enginner

I know her normals were 13.65 in that

so ig I could just

take how much damage her normal did

and then multiply it by 89 divide by .1365

see what it comes out to

[molten robin]

We don't know enemy defense

[light rain]

What if the real buff the defense reduction is just slapping tons of defense on higher level stuff

[barren nexus]

yeah but we can get a rough estimate

centi def down was a 1.7% dmg increase on normals so

[molten robin]

It's simple to just get an estimate, yes

[barren nexus]

ATK and DEF weren't close

[molten robin]

I forgot they had centi, you can actually solve for defense from that

[coral junco]

LV.1 solo raid boss i guess wont be too high def

[barren nexus]

we can solve for the ratio of defense and atk

[molten robin]

So you can precisely solve for attack

[barren nexus]

but not the exact value of either unless we have a third data point

[molten robin]

You have all the data you need actually

The absolute damage difference from centi allows you to solve for defense assuming centi skill 10 (good assumption)

[barren nexus]

well abs damage diff yeah

the damage she does is def

13.65% of her atk

from normals

this is bc it is perfectly in ratio without her S2

at 216%

and 60 bullet AR is 13.65% standard with 1s reload

so yeah can solve

with that

[fossil void]

how do you get to the cap is another thing

And pepper also heals

[molten robin]

Hitting cap is trivial lmao

[barren nexus]

cap is def trivial

[fossil void]

[coral junco]

I can't see tooltip show skill LV on stream🥺
too blurre

[fossil void]

the skill things? it is level 10

I was honestly hoping she would be b2 or 3 so I could use with pepper. But I will use her with pepper anyway
Team synergy be damn for my pink team

[coral junco]

with my 4k monitor,ain't see shit

[barren nexus]

it was on stormbringer

not the whale

[coral junco]

👌 .

[barren nexus]

the tooltip for the whale is a placeholder right there

[red heath]

Anyone know where to slot Dorothy? Was thinking scarlet reload team cause of Privaty ammo reduction

[barren nexus]

I think lobby is BIS

[red heath]

:tuxbusiness:

[coral junco]

wow even more worse

[barren nexus]

ATK=19899 and DEF=2082.6

rough estimate

[fossil void]

what worse?

[coral junco]

8900%

[barren nexus]

seems legit

[fossil void]

So the stat for that stream is low?

[barren nexus]

at least the numbers are consistent

yeah

they are lv280 but their stats are less than 20k ATK for some reason

which would not be possible even just at base

but whatever

dev mode shenanigans prob

[fossil void]

Or it didn't hit the cap

[barren nexus]

no

numbers are consistent

that's def the cap

she just has <20k atk based on her normals

[coral junco]

not it hit cap

the mark turn bule

[fossil void]

I may be too dumb to understand how do you know that

[coral junco]

it's mean it' cap

[fossil void]

oh the mark turn blue is cap?

I see

[barren nexus]

I reverse engineered her ATK by looking at how much dmg she actually did

and how much it did after centi buff

--> thus I know how much atk she roughly has, to like 1/1000

then we just compare that to the dmg of the burst

[coral junco]

280 lower 20k atk feels awkward

[barren nexus]

and dividing it by 89 gave roughly the same number

--> thus they are consistent

obv there's still some other stuff to test but the dmg was 89x of her ATK power as advertised

now the question remains of whether we can increase it and under what circumstances

the blue implies snapshot

so we're pinning our hopes on OL gear atk lines

[coral junco]

[fossil void]

what does snapshot do in the game it is not dynamic when the skill is cast/realse? How about snow s3 and stuff and others. Do we know which skill is dynamic

[barren nexus]

skills that say that they just do damage when press, no conditions = snapshots on cast

skills that say they do damage if a condition is fulfilled = snapshots buffs/debuffs at time of hitting

a burst 3 cast counts as "right before FB"

[astral sage]

could it be because it dealt damage to parts as well?

[fossil void]

so they don't get FB buff?

[barren nexus]

so an FB that does single target damage, like Helm, will see no benefits from FB buff or effects that trigger on FB, like priv

even tho it is "delayed" on when it hits

[coral junco]

no the burst skill won't get effect by that

[barren nexus]

consequently, even if liter buff falls off right as Helm's damage hits, it doesn't matter

bc the cast has already snapshotted liter's buff

[fossil void]

do we get extra dmg in full burst?

[barren nexus]

"additional damage" bursts are the only damage that bypasses this

[astral sage]

I'm talking about the number popup being low because it also hit other parts?

[coral junco]

oh but the screen din't show part's have dmg number too

only one 1.7M

[barren nexus]

you get the full burst effect of +50% dmg, additive with core dmg bonus, crits, and weapon range bonuses

[fossil void]

I still dont know for sure about AOE skill like privaty vs bosses with multiple parts. Does she get more hit? or only one

[low sable]

One

[astral sage]

did the parts hp go down by a chunk when the mark detonate?

during stream

[barren nexus]

Priv hits 3 times, but the total is the advertised dmg

so if her burst does 333 dmg, it hits 3 times for 111

[fossil void]

so even with no character buff, we get 50% dmg buff in full burst. Seem new to me.

[barren nexus]

and it snapshots on cast

[fossil void]

I mean AOe in generaly

[coral junco]

seems it didn't even have parts?

[barren nexus]

I don't see what you would generalize about AoE

[fossil void]

like a boss with 3 parts, 1 core
Privaty use her s3. she get quarruple the dmg?

[barren nexus]

No

skills that do damage to enemies via (targets all enemies) just deal damage directly to that enemy's health bar

[low sable]

No gear

[fossil void]

scarlet and harran s3 also does that?

[barren nexus]

yeah

[coral junco]

no gear lv260 is already 36000 atk

[fossil void]

so they contribute nothing to breaking parts

[barren nexus]

yes

[fossil void]

I see

[low sable]

Enemy def?

[barren nexus]

yeah but it checks out with the normals so it's all good

[fossil void]

they already calculated enemy def

[low sable]

Calculate her basic attack dmg to find attack value.

[barren nexus]

we calculated everything already

scroll up

[low sable]

It's around 13% per shot.

[barren nexus]

the vod has dorothy at about 19.8-19.9k ATK, enemy is about 2k DEF

[low sable]

Thats more accurate than assuming Doro has 19.8k attack

[barren nexus]

anyway dmg on the enemy checks out with dorothy's ATK

[low sable]

Which is quite dumb lel

[barren nexus]

We

already

checked

scroll up

[low sable]

Ok

[fossil void]

It was strange for me looking at that too. It was one of my first question

since my pepper at 160 has more atk than that

[barren nexus]

that's why I do consistency checks

I check that X is consistent with Y

and they were

so we can trust that for whatever reason she really did have ~19.8k ATK

[coral junco]

Lv280 only got 19.8Katk. shame on you PV dorothy

[barren nexus]

it's fine it's prob just devtools shenanigans

[low sable]

Prolly CP diff

Penalty

[barren nexus]

no

boss has 2k def

and this is 1-5 event stage p sure

p sure they just devkit something

[coral junco]

i believe you

[barren nexus]

[coral junco]

test server stuff

[fossil void]

Did you guys checked on other character too?

rei and centi was also in there

[barren nexus]

nah

[fossil void]

[barren nexus]

dorothy is the main one that's interesting anyway

[fossil void]

Understandable

isn't biscuit buff support allies

[astral sage]

yes

[fossil void]

will she buff dorothy dmg too?

[astral sage]

but biscuit is b2 so her burst comes after dorothy's burst

[barren nexus]

prob not her burst but we'll have to see

unless you have some like

[fossil void]

why doesn't the burst get buffed?

[barren nexus]

serious shenanigans with isabel

but that comp is prob ill conceived atm

[fossil void]

dorothy, novel, snow white

[barren nexus]

waiting for max ammo DOWN cube

then dorothy can just reduce burst cooldown by infinity

[astral sage]

finally, Aria will be meta

[barren nexus]

worse than helm S1

[fossil void]

helm s1 is so nice

[barren nexus]

would be if crit didn't suck ass

[fossil void]

How good is alice

I dont really understand why she is considered so good

the nikke gg rate her higher than snow and scarlet too

[astral sage]

because for some reason shift up decided to give her 350% charge damage cap instead of 250% that everyone else has

that's already 40% increase

and have almost 100% charge speed from burst

and pierce

[barren nexus]

hm?

Alice is god

bc of mouse macros

that's the reason

both in paper and in reality, late game she is the hardest hitter in the game no contest

[fossil void]

there are mouse macros? how do that works

she is even better than snow for bossing?

[barren nexus]

she is superior to snow white yes

[astral sage]

how many shots can you hit in 10 s of fb with alice and macro and no ammo constraint?

[barren nexus]

44

[astral sage]

44 full charged?

yea, way better than snow white

[barren nexus]

they are full charged bc it's 100% atk speed stat

[fossil void]

It is faster than letting the AI auto hit?

[barren nexus]

yes it is faster

[fossil void]

may be I should switch from snow to her then

[barren nexus]

buff crit for my snow white

[astral sage]

44x240% fully charged shots = 10,560% of ATK
compared to snow white's 4,999% of ATK

[fossil void]

but my snow are doing good

she kill chatterbox, modernia and train

[barren nexus]

snow white is balanced

alice is not

[fossil void]

but snow can also attack after the 5s channel

[astral sage]

snow white channels for 10s though

[fossil void]

and it is super front loaded

[barren nexus]

14.71% for like 60 rounds is nothing

[fossil void]

some buff may runs out

also which set up for alice

[barren nexus]

Alice is the top dps in the game right now

you just stick her with maxwell

[fossil void]

I have her, maxwell, privaty

may be my team will just be the pepper, centi, alice maxwell, privaty as usual instead of snow

do I need cube and shit for her

[barren nexus]

you might wanna take this to #pve-team-building or something

reload cube is op tho

just pump reload cube

inb4 new cubes powercreep it

[fossil void]

How much worse of auto alice at 100% reload speed and charge speed on auto compare to using mouse?
You said maximum 44 shot with mouse right? How many shot for auto?

[barren nexus]

like 28 on PC

didn't look into the auto speed too deeply

[fossil void]

Could you help with that for more certain answer

just put on your alice team and run it on practice range

[barren nexus]

I mean I already did it once and conclusion was that it was in that general range

[coral junco]

27 28 are so bussy
27 gacha dorothy and clear 21 22 and then push hard mode
finish event, open my coredust and push more.
sounds like i can play nikke all day long

[barren nexus]

[fossil void]

I see

[fossil void]

oh wait it isn't 44x350% here?

I thought you said alice charge was 350

[barren nexus]

350% is charge multiplier, 69.04 is base

[fossil void]

It should be 44x350% right? the max value
and then 28x350% for phone

[barren nexus]

no

you are doing 350% of 69.04

[fossil void]

oh I see

so alice will deal 44x240 = 6720% on phone

seems about snow dmg

but I can put those two in the same team

double profit

[astral sage]

44x240 = 10560%

double snow white's 4999%

oh you mean 28x240

[fossil void]

yea

it look about 1700% higher than snow 5000 but snow is front loaded and can work with novel too

so should be about same in the end

Or may be I am coping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQoAl_sCZ4w&ab_channel=PESUMY

I may go for this team

look good

The snow has more gear though 35 vs 31 but he was playing on pc

[barren nexus]

Alice has a 55% atk buff on top of that multiplier

that's why she's dumb

[molten robin]

also worth noting that alice min has an extra 11% charge damage from s1

[barren nexus]

think it's 7 but yeah

[molten robin]

Yea sorry mixed the two up

But the comparison is more interesting once you factor in that SW can get 100% benefit from liter and novel, while Alice can only get half

But realistically being able to shoot different targets is very useful anyways

[barren nexus]

yeah the main difficulty for snow white vs Alice is that Alice has a 10s 55% atk buff too

(on top of doing wayyy more multiplier per s)

[cloud elk]

how do atk% buff multiplier work?

liter 50%, say ruppe another 20% was it?

how do they stack, additive multiplicative?

[cyan sedge]

Additive so +70%

[cloud elk]

hmm, are they also additive with overload?

[cyan sedge]

Ye

[formal inlet]

Formula in #research-results

[fossil void]

Snow will still reign supreme with overkill dmg for 1 shot team vs GD, modernia, train, chatterbox And I think she is cheap to build too. Only s3 is needed

Hopefully with the dorothy too.

[shell sky]

Can anyone answer me why this happens? The enemy that only take 1 damage has been giving me problems in campaign until I equipped Novel. He usually gets in 1-2 teleports before they reach the hit requirement but when Novel bursts with full stacks, he begins to take damage for the period of her burst.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1801359654

[molten robin]

this nikke has a shield which requires a certain # of hits to destroy

it is not novel burst allowing you to bypass it, it's just coincidence in it lining up

[formal inlet]

Are you sure? Cuz I think I see the shield still exists when the rapture starts taking damage

[shell sky]

I will try to find the enemy again and recreate it.

[molten robin]

without seeing more context it's hard to say

I dont recall if he visually loses the blue shield

[formal inlet]

He does when he starts taking damage

[molten robin]

hmmm

[formal inlet]

That's what I was thinking initially xD, maybe a visual bug? But now I think damage taken debuff on raptures might be doing this

[molten robin]

then the most logical explanation here is that the means by which it reduces damage to 1 is by adding a damage taken buff, such as 100% reduced damage taken

and the damage taken debuff applied is additive

[formal inlet]

Oh nice, yeah that explains it

[shell sky]

When I don't want him around, he is in every mission. When I want to test something, he is nowhere to be found.

Also, that is what I was thinking but didn't know how to put it. That the shield isn't really a shield but some sort of buff that makes him practically take no damage.

[formal inlet]

This means novel and modernia should not be in the same team for UR against plate

I wonder if this works on tombstone as well

[molten robin]

well the shield is definitely not a "shield" in the sense we usually see them

that's for sure

more likely, a buff that has a set # of charges

so it reduces the damage of the next X hits by 100%, for example

[shell sky]

The only problem about it is that it is kinda random, as in who it selects. The description says it selects 1 target, that is why in the clip I didn't pop burst until I knew he was the only one left.

You also have to build stacks and I couldn't remember which Nikkes give stacks to make it go faster.

[tender summit]

Prob the shield also use finalized dmg taken increase

So Novel neutralized it

[light rain]

I was kind of trying to test if the slow motion from aimimg a skill could increase machine gun dps since there's all the fire rate tied to fps shenanigans and as far as I can tell there is a tiny benefit. My Modernia with 699 max ammo to start and bastion 3 runs out of ammo a second time at 54 seconds left in firing range normally, but If I leave on Dorothy's burst aimer as soon as I reach burst (1:21 remaining) she runs out of ammo a second time at 56 seconds remaining. I also noticed that reload bars for non-controlled units are wrong in slow motion. They seem to go full speed and finish even though the unit is still actually reloading.

[native bane]

hey

[cosmic zodiac]

Why is there 1/(Rb x (1-Rm)) in the first place. This only implies the ratio of each cube is the same.

It does not take into account how dps is actually calc

[native bane]

alright

[random marlin]

iirc this is total effective ammo / eh, final reload

dunno what it means

[native bane]

ngl since I’m not the one who made this

idk if I can defend it

but

we have other testing that showed that more ammo doesn’t mean you should use bastion

which is what is widely believed

like this thing

and also some personal testing that I did

[random marlin]

I think we can explain it using uptime

% uptime = shooting time / total time to unleash a whole mag
= Total effective ammo / fire rate / (Cover animation + Reload + windup + shooting time)

putting number here will tell that both results are quite same, though Bastion always has slightly better result

as shown in the chart

[formal inlet]

It was made for scarlet so atk speed is null

[formal inlet]

@pine stirrup

[pine stirrup]