Research Dungeon

[molten robin]

you can both experience a 100% odd against the same targets AND it can be random

is my point

[clear vector]

I also got targeted from right to left but in a different situation

[molten robin]

that's the point of the latter half of my sentence here

[clear vector]

Sure I agree with that

[molten robin]

say we convert this to rock paper scissors - 70% of people always throw scissors, 30% of people always throw rock, if you choose rock against the 70% that throw scissors you will win 100% of the time, if you throw paper against rock you will always win 100%, but in aggregate, pulling a random sample from the population, you would be described as having a 70% chance to win by throwing rock, and a 30% if you throw paper

it would be "random"

I do not actually know that is how left vs right targeting works, but merely explaining how it CAN work that way, while still being considered random

if we actually knew the details, they could be explained in greater depth, but if anyone knows how targeting gets determined, it has not been shared to auster (who wrote the article)

[willow pecan]

some hit rate stuff coming in, not sure if useful/overlapping. We were talking about 100% hit rate possibly focusing shotgun shots down to a pinprick, thereby achieving hitscan.

outside burst, ~13ish% hit rate, middle distance, 1 out of 10 pellets inside crosshair

Burst, ~50ish% hit rate, middle distance, 5 out of 10 pellets inside

Don't know if pellet count inside crosshair matters, as far as I know the circle just shrinks

maybe it won't shrink to a pinprick, but it might shrink to the crosshair. I'm not sure. It's my best guess though, that 100% hit rate shrinks to the crosshair.

if anyone wants to do a ~100% with sugar burst + sim buff hit rate + drake, that might be interesting for comparison

[barren nexus]

I thought that big grey circle around the cross hair is the spread range

And it's possible that hit rate isn't capped at 100%

[willow pecan]

it is

meaning over 100% you'll start going past into the crosshair

so maybe 200% is the pinprick breakpoint

no idea

right now we're hard capped at about 150%

40% from sugar buff, 40% from sim, 40% from 4x overloaded gears, 10% drake, 5% miranda

all numbers rounded up

unless the crosshair also shrinks with grey circle

then I guess we just just to find out experimentally

[barren nexus]

If it's linear radial reduction then yeah 200% would be the center since it seems visually the spread radius is about 2x the size of the crosshair

And the devs have not really intentionally put in soft caps for any stats so far so that seems reasonably likely

[willow pecan]

Second screenshot

Grey circle is significantly less than size of cross hair

Hmmm

Yeah nvm probably 200% for pinprick

Anyone wants to try 150% in sim room go ahead

Drake sugar and sim buff is about 100%

4x overload probably asking for too much

[native bane]

Drake ATK at lvl 200, recycle 30, gear T9 +0, no cube:

LB0 Bond 10 : 28123
LB1 Bond 20 : 29149 (+3.65%)
LB2 Bond 30 : 30243 (+3.75%)
LB3 Bond 30 : 30685 (+1.46%)
LB3 +1 Bond 30 : 31181 (+1.61%)
LB3 +2 Bond 30 : 31677 (+1.59%)
LB3 +3 Bond 30 : 32173 (+1.57%)
LB3 +4 Bond 30 : 32669 (+1.54%)
LB3 +5 Bond 30 : 33166 (+1.52%)
LB3 +6 Bond 30 : 33662 (+1.50%)
LB3 +7 Bond 30 : 34158 (+1.47%)

3rd LB doesn’t matter that much for non-pilgrim if youve already broken the 160 wall

at higher levels the stats from bond levels lose their value but still pretty important

if anyone can confirm that recycle stats are affected by cores I would appreciate it

[tender summit]

Yes

[native bane]

have you tested it?

[tender summit]

We did before like 2 weeks ago

#1042458757843656774 message

Like this proved all stat interaction

[native bane]

yup the formula worked for me as well but I never actually checked the stats before and after using some consoles

but theres no need I guess

so the stats shown on the core level menu are different than what they actually are

since they should include recycling room stats

but they don’t

that was what confused me

[native bane]

And I might be mistaken but this menu also says that the final stats for upgrading a unit to core n will be the core n-1 stats +2% which is wrong since in reality it's the core 0 stats + 2*n %

[tender summit]

Yeah, we did check and it’s additive

The formula there works 100%

[willow pecan]

more hit rate stuff coming in

Credits to Apolo, union leader of Syrup on NA

high hit rate shot guns do core hits like brrrrrrrrrr

you can compare the start to the middle where every pellet is hitting core during burst v.s. outside of burst where it doesn't

potato quality cause discord nitro ain't free

zoom in and you can see the grey circle size at ~91% hit rate

[molten robin]

this ss doesnt show the circle, but you can see it here

I zoomed in at 370% on your ss wondering where the circle was supposed to be lol

so if that's the circle at 91%, safe to assume 100% is basically hitscan I'd say

[willow pecan]

hmmm

on my SS I can barely see where it is, around 80% of the size of the crosshair

was thinking that would mean that we need 100%+ to get hitscan/pinprick targetting

[molten robin]

nah bro there's nothing there I swear

[willow pecan]

but functionally near 100% should be enough, since sugar already hitting 100% on the core from near to mid

am I seeing things

😰

[molten robin]

seeing things

[willow pecan]

the circular shadow

[molten robin]

I opened your ss in browser, zoomed in 370%, took another ss, zoomed in again 370%

there's nothing there

[willow pecan]

I still see it

LOL

oh no

one of us has eye problems

and I don't know which

[willow pecan]

your screenshot seems better

oh wait hold up

I'm getting the original resolution videos soon

it's going to require a download

https://we.tl/t-6wtT4pZtDt

lemme check it first

don't download for now, even though I'm pretty sure it's safe

yeah it's just 5 videos in there

should be safe

[flat escarp]

I'd comment on your paranoia if I wasn't the same

Anyways gonna sleep now but got those simulation buffs till reset if anyone wants me to test something

[willow pecan]

good night Apolo, get some rest

from what I'm seeing, it's definitely not a pinprick at 91%

about grey circle shrinks to about 70% size of the crosshair

at very far distances it's still 80% core hits, so that's already very strong

so hit rate is definitely worth getting for shotguns to get core hits, but pinprick/hitscan will likely need a bit more than 100%?

[flat escarp]

The source of the buffs btw, only thing I could add besides that is viper but hers is on boss showing up not burst and only 5% so sounded like a pain

[meager elbow]

Modernia S2 ■ Affects all allies. Activates when entering Full Burst.
Hit Rate ▲ 8.56% for 15 sec.

We found a lot of stuffs but no one write it down in #research-results

[willow pecan]

dead gaem

[dull zenith]

Go write it down. Starting with the % reload reduction where it doesn't matter much anymore (it's not 100%) all the way up to present

[tender summit]

How to even estimate when mg is the only class that do core hit consistantly

[willow pecan]

just look at this video

😆

no estimation needed

[flat escarp]

Right, forgot modernia's is aoe, gonna do a run with modernia and viper then to go over 100%

[meager elbow]

It's a skill that buff team so it could buff Sugar

[flat escarp]

I'm confused, estimate what?

but with all those buffs sugar was doing core hits consistently

only reaches 100% in this small window cuz viper's activation condition is stupid, but that works since I don't have nitro to send the full video anyways

[molten robin]

looks pretty close to hitscan to me

I wonder if that's the limit or if it can shrink further

[flat escarp]

I imagine it can shrink further, cuz viper's buff made a bigger difference than I expected despite being only 5% and most of it past 100%

Here's with all buffs but viper's, so 98~99%

Also, using sim room just so I can test how it looks at higher investment, but all those values are attainable outside sim room without even needing to take a shit team just for this

[molten robin]

yea that does look like more than 1.23% benefit, huh?

[flat escarp]

yeah, think the sweet spot is somewhere between 100 and 105, any more than that is probably too much, less you risk not hitting core at medium range but should be fine if still above 95 or so

for medium range, for using just on short range it's way less

[native bane]

theres still damage dropoff even with insane hit rate right?

[flat escarp]

yes

you don't get the 30% bonus

but get the core hit bonus

[molten robin]

there's no "damage dropoff", but you may not get the range bonus

same as any other weapon hitting outside its preferred range

[flat escarp]

right, that's what i meant

[native bane]

oh okay thanks

[molten robin]

yea I only clarify because the idea that shotguns do less damage the further away you hit has been a rumor for a long time

due to a combination of missing pellets and losing range bonus

people confuse that with a true damage dropoff

[native bane]

im people

[flat escarp]

the missing bonus from ideal range there is nothing to do about, but the other dropoff reason is from pellets either missing core or missing enemy altogether, those hit rate calcs are exactly to see if we can not be affected by that one

[molten robin]

I thought that might be the case based on your question lol

[flat escarp]

here's a better one, can't grab 0% cuz can't remove overloaded

[molten robin]

perfect, thanks for your work

it appears to ramp up in effectiveness

the difference between 62% and 104% looks more significant to me than between 12% and 62%

maybe the area removed is static instead of a %, and that area becomes a greater % of the smaller circles

[flat escarp]

I didn't do consistent increases, the numbers I compared are all over the place so that makes it harder to judge

[molten robin]

because the 99% circle is pretty easily half the size of the 89.6% circle, just eyeballing it

maybe even a bit less than half

[flat escarp]

yeah sounds about right

wonder what the cap is, tho probably not relevant for practical purposes

[molten robin]

that would be consistent with a linear, static amount of area reduction

like every 1% removes 1 mm or something

[flat escarp]

a liter dolla sugar drake modernia team can have over 75% hit rate every 10s after burst so should be above a 2/3 uptime, with sugar having over 100% on over 1/2 uptime

that's with some insane rolls and hella investment, but sounds fun

[still drift]

Modernia may be bugged, I cannot seem to proc her "Giant Leap" skill with additional attack.
Can anyone please attempt to proc her ATK+ part of her Giant Leap?

[molten robin]

do you have any sources of hitrate other than her own?

OL or cube?

[still drift]

Yep.

I only see the Hitrate on her. No mention of ATK buff.

[molten robin]

certainly not confirmation from me, but I did see rumblings earlier of someone else saying that was an issue

having other sources of hitrate disabled her s2 is what they said

[still drift]

I have an OL on her now actually, so it might be that

Permanently bricked

[molten robin]

ill boot up and test myself with cube vs no cube

[still drift]

Just tested on my alt. ^ Normal behavior :
Assault Harmony Cube; No OL.
200 Shots.
Proc'ced Giant Leap ATK Buff.

[molten robin]

ok saves me the effort

perhaps OL specific

[still drift]

IRREGULAR Behavior :
Assault Harmony Cube; Hitrate OL buff.
200 shots.
NO Giant Leap ATK buff.

[fringe junco]

we know that hitrate on OL gear is bugged on her

has been tested before

[still drift]

#1042458757843656774 message

Not always.

They definitely fucked something up with a patch that I wasn't aware of

Why the fuck would they change things like this?

[fringe junco]

iirc modernia's bug was introduced on the patch that we got on the 12th

[still drift]

[molten robin]

do we know if union raid resets rounds daily?

I assumed it didnt, but I don't see anywhere, in-game or otherwise, where it's been stated

[atomic gyro]

Why are you asking in the research dungeon also it does

[molten robin]

Lies

[atomic gyro]

Oh I thought you meant the daily three tries

[molten robin]

I asked here because I assumed it was a datamine question

Since no official word had said

But obviously we know now lol

[atomic gyro]

Ah, then probably better in the datamine thread than research

[still drift]

I still have my skill uninstaller on my alt.

It might carry over to the next skill reset event

[molten robin]

Seems likely

[fringe junco]

same I kept it

other currency like co-op shop also carries over

[willow pecan]

Any research on union raid bosses respawning and negative damage?

[still drift]

It's an exploitable bug. No details.

They already have a system in place to punish abnormal scores. Seriously advise caution regarding it.

[willow pecan]

is it really exploitable if it's making people lose ranks sounds like players getting exploited by the bug

kill the boss one more time for 90 coins, then lose rank 3 and end up rank 4

negative profit of -920 coins

[wispy sequoia]

as long as 1 person finishes the boss, everybody gets the 90 coin reward

so theoretically you can kill the boss 30 times for 2700 coins

[willow pecan]

I don't know the details of this bug, hence my question. Is that really what is happening?

Cause you might as well ignore rankings and just have 30 people killing every boss from stage 1 onwards.

[wispy sequoia]

it's only for S7 SB

[tender summit]

After season ended, dev will remove all cheated score, so any ppl who have cheated member will lost rank by a lot

[tender summit]

Isn’t there is a lot of guild will reach stage 7 clear anyway, so they already get hefty punishment if they cheat

[still drift]

I'm expecting players who actually abuse the bugs will probably have a harmony cube reset and Union chip reset

[willow pecan]

Personally expecting only the egregious abusers to get it

Everyone else probably profiting

They didn't do shit about most other abuses

Would be pleasantly surprised to see some unexpected competency

[vernal coral]

Found something with Modernia that boosts output a lot, trying to investigate. I already mentioned infinite fire loop with overload ammo capacity + liter magazine extension bug but I found something else that lets her maintain spin up even through reloading. Requires manual play and once active you can't stop holding down or it deactivates.

field discussion is on top of it but yoh can see her spin up is still maxed despite being nearly done reloading

I used it in Union Raid

clearer image

seems to be related to being at a very specific breakpoint of ammo capacity vs ammo bug induced by Liter

or maybe it's related to bastion ticking at the right time related to that, not sure, but figured I'd inform. I'll swap to assault and see if it still procs.

still works with assault so it's not Bastion

it's definitely related to liter reload bug, because this time I started reloading due to the bug without Bastion and wasn't actually reloading, but this refills my clip and is part of how I have infinite ammo between Modernia bursts in my usual 2-1-2 comp.

There's some way to get this to coincide with an actual reload, and if you get the timing right, as long as you don't let go of the screen afterwards, you won't spin down even during real reloads

I think I just happen to be at a point where my ammo count is exactly enough to coincide with the timing needed now and then when I'm using Bastion

[willow pecan]

easily replicated in sim room with epic reload buff at max + privaty at lv6 skills

afaik it's something to do with her applying an invisible "self buff", I'm gonna call it heat

when heat is at max % she will fire at max speed

heat % drops off every second she is not firing

when it drops off completely you have to reapply heat % from 0%

time rate of applying heat % is not the same as time rate of losing heat %

as in it takes about ~2 seconds to heat up modernia's gun to full fire mode, but I don't know how long it takes for heat to fall off.

[atomic gyro]

So basically, as long as your "heat" never hits 0, the rate of "heat" increase never gets reset, so you go back to max firing rate instantly?

[willow pecan]

yes

[vernal coral]

Not the same thing

this is actually just never losing heat at all

[willow pecan]

you never lose the "heat" status

as in your fire rate never changes

even through resets

[vernal coral]

heat falls off at a constant rate and you see the gauge deplete usually

[willow pecan]

maybe I put it in a confusing way

the best thing I can think if is bring admi+privaty+modernia into sim room tomorrow after reset and watch the way she fires, if it's identical to the phenomenon you described then it should be the same thing happening, caused by different things

[atomic gyro]

Perhaps it's a bug between heat being tied to targeting instead of actual state of the nikke? So if you keep your finger on, you're technically always on target and retain max heat

[vernal coral]

if you never reload at all that would make sense, you would lose nor.ally but the period of time not firing is so small it wouldn't matter

[willow pecan]

so long as you're actually firing you never lose "heat"

so you can fire at thin air, it's fine (which is something modernia can do)

[vernal coral]

in my situation I can literally be behind cover and reloading normally while maintaining 100% heat

[willow pecan]

oh, that. Hmmm

Yeah, I can see it being diff. Definitely different, in my situation modernia never puts her gun back, it's just constantly out and spewing bullets.

interesting

[vernal coral]

but I can't manually let go to go behind cover, I have to let it happen by running out of ammo

[atomic gyro]

If we can get this "trigger" happening reliably, maybe we can try it with other MG users?

[willow pecan]

need overloaded gear with +%ammo to achieve it afaik

to line up with liter's buff

[vernal coral]

Perhaps. It was really helpful for core break in union raid vs modernia

theoretically if tou get the timing right it's potentially doable without the overload but you'd have to stop firing and start at a point where it'd line up

[willow pecan]

another thing, think we'd be able to get research going on union raid bosses phases and strategy? Feels like top unions will just keep what they know to themselves since this will be a repeating, competitive thing

[atomic gyro]

Make a thread in the #1046549179918458890? I think a lot of people might want to contribute

[willow pecan]

I feel like my name wouldn't garner any attention since I'm just a pleb

maybe someone else can do it if there's actually interest in this topic

[atomic gyro]

Just go for it, you're the one interested in the topic

[pearl parcel]

doesn't matter

research department is for everyone to work on

that was the purpose of it and why I make it

to create theorycraft for Nikke

[willow pecan]

I'll see if I can write something up after some sleep

[pearl parcel]

hit me up if you need more infos

also you have things there on how to format and examples

[willow pecan]

will do, thank you

[next belfry]

[still drift]

Scarlet has a base capacity of 20 Ammo.
She takes 2.30s seconds to reload.

Resilience Cube SL1 provides 14.84+ Reload Speed.
Wingman Cube provides 14.84+ Max Ammo.
Bastion Cube provides 1 ammo per 10 Ammo spent.

[ROF MAY DEPEND ON YOUR DEVICE. FAIR WARNING MOVING FORWARD]
2.2s to empty mag, .11s per bullet.

"Base" Cycle from "Shoot" to "Shoot" is 4.5s.

Resilience Cube (14.84% Reduction on Reload); 1.95868s to reload; = 4.15868s Cycle.
Wingman Cube (14.84+ Max Ammo); = 22.968 Ammo (23 Ammo) = 2.53s shoot, 4.83s Cycle.

Resilience only shot 20 bullets vs Wingman's 23. Add 3x .11s bullets to Resilience.

Adjusted Resilience : 4.48868s for Resilience.
Wingman Cube : 4.83s cycle. Same as previous.

Resilience cube (Reload SPD) appears to be better than Wingman, numerically speaking.

Need someone to double check this, am I doing anything wrong?
Open to opinions.
@molten robin

This kinda question really made me want to find out for sure.

(Also keep in mind this analysis conveniently ignores the ammo bugs that are occuring atm, )

ex. Double reloads, Liter's "Free Reloads"

[molten robin]

Slight correction to your math process - you can't add .33s to resilience and then compare, because you are inadvertently favoring resilience by adding ammo that does not have a cost in reload time - instead the better comparison is to take 4.83/23 to get the average time spent per bullet for wingman, .21, then 4.48868/20 for resilience, which was like .208 or something

[still drift]

ahh true

[molten robin]

So resilience is only 1% better than wingman, less than your initial conclusion

But still better

Since you can (and if possible, should) get max ammo in large quantities from OL, I think resilience should be favored

[still drift]

Kinda not sure on the current state of the game rn.
If having bullets in your gun will allow for "Free reloads" from Liter proc more often

[molten robin]

Yea I agree with ignoring that since it should be fixed

[dull zenith]

% for % reload is always more dps than mag size increases

so long as % is beyond some small threshold

[still drift]

Oh well, this analysis is super late anyways

"bugfixes" in a few hours anyways

||10 bugs fixed, 20 more back in the game||

[dull zenith]

Intuitively, the reason is that as reload reduction % approaches 100%, the benefit from mag size increases approaches 0. Conversely, mag size increases would need to approach infinity to nullify reload reduction.

They both increase dps using the same vector, by raising x/(x+y) where x is the time shooting and y is the time reloading

Raising one makes the other more pointless

[molten robin]

Yea it's also obvious by the real scenario of 100% max ammo being equal to 50% reload speed, and 200% only equal to 75%

But OL offers so much potential max ammo, I wouldn't worry about getting it from a cube

The amount of max ammo OL gives is randomly super high

[still drift]

Its mostly due to your first roll being fixed at 11/15

[molten robin]

Is it?

Interesting

[still drift]

Yep

[molten robin]

That goes away on your first reroll I assume?

[still drift]

Yeah

You can get lower values afterwards

[dull zenith]

+100% max ammo is 50% reload speed reduction, but +200% max ammo is 66% reload speed reduction

[still drift]

It's not like we can consistently maintain 100% Reload Spd reduction anyways.
Max ammo is our cope for now.

outside of Sim room ofc.

[molten robin]

Yea you're right

Wasn't thinking when I said that lol

[fringe junco]

works vs modernia stun

[willow pecan]

disgusting marketing strategy from tencent

[willow pecan]

has centi's burst generation been nerfed?

I feel something off

[willow pecan]

Nvm, likely can disregard.

[whole fox]

Time for more research

What cleanse cocoa can cleanse

[fringe junco]

so far it seems everything that shows up red is cleansable

have not seen an exception

[dull zenith]

Can someone who pulled Cocoa test her on level 7 Doctor? Curious to see if her cleanse makes a meaningful difference compared to something conventional like Liter

[fringe junco]

that's a -40% atk% debuff team wide for 20seconds or something

easily better than liter's burst

[dull zenith]

depends on how often doctor re-applies it

[fringe junco]

often

[dull zenith]

Well that'd be the point. The more often Doctor reapplies it, the less useful cleanse is.

[molten robin]

He doesnt reapply so often that'd be the case

[fringe junco]

and cocoa comes with multiple cleanses

just don't grief yourself by wasting it on debuffs like privaty's

[molten robin]

When a debuff that stacks adds a stack, does it count the debuff as having applied at that time of refresh, or is it always the time of first application?

For the purposes of cocoa cleanse order

I can test when I get home if no one else does

[edgy wedge]

do we already know the percentage of cover HP compared to HP
with Cocoa's skill 1 we can kind of test more about the cover?

[native bane]

I believe cover HP isn't directly related to HP but only the character's level

here : https://docs-google-com.translate.goog/spreadsheets/d/1PaPU07AAZvECsSQeOhzMxue3q-sYXiKWclT3geaDJAM/htmlview?_x_tr_sl=ko&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#

cover level tab

with a DEF stat as well

[whole fox]

[tender summit]

There are bunch of stuffs hidden in game:
Monster lvl/stats
Destructable object lvl/stats
Cover stats

[clear vector]

is it hidden or people dont bother to mine?

[atomic gyro]

More like mining is hard

Also people don't want to get lawsuits

[molten robin]

Well I'm pretty sure lorax meant hidden in terms of nothing in-game tells us

Those values are all known via datamining

[still drift]

There are old staticpacks floating around that people aren't taking advantage of.

Datamining current assets in the game is not a crime.
Leaked assets that weren't part of the public game to begin with are somewhat more questionable.

[jaunty jungle]

so the consensus is, prioritize reload speed cube then max ammo / whatever?

[still drift]

#questioning-centre message

[cyan sedge]

was this ever figured out for guilty?

[still drift]

We need to index all this research

[molten robin]

as far as I can tell, the answer is no, but with a caveat that I could not figure out the math in an example rayel did with liter

in a different test austerity showed me with just scarlet and guilty, her extra attack not being increased by an attack buff fit the math, but it was using her s2 self buff and the values were small, so if the math in rayel's liter test did not fit due to weird rounding somewhere as I suspected, I can't rule that out being the cause behind this positive test

so I can't conclusively show with just the two tests, but I believe the answer is more likely no than yes

let me take a shower and review the data and video rayel sent me from that liter test to see if I didn't just overlook something back then

too easy to be blind to a single variable

[molten robin]

HAHAHA

talk about being blind to one variable

whew

@still drift no wonder I couldn't get the math to work...for some reason I assumed guilty would exclude herself from being a target for copying attack, but with my newer understand of how they handle "ally" language, I can see now that was never their intention

and in fact in the tests you did, she was copying her own attack

hence the math never lining up for me

I assumed she was copying liter's attack

[still drift]

o wtf?

Same

So she copies her own attack intentionally

[cyan sedge]

so basically a normal atk buff lol

[still drift]

[molten robin]

she did in your test because she was the ally nikke with the highest attack

[still drift]

ahhh I see

[molten robin]

we can see in more recent wording of abilities that "ally" doesn't exclude oneself

but that was less obvious at the time

and her ability was obviously designed to copy the attack of someone else

so it was a mental blindspot

so yea, redoing the math in light of that rounding was never an issue, and I can conclusively confirm that the attack she gains from her s1 does not count as attack for the purposes of % attack buffs

in other words, it acts mechanically identical to a regular % attack buff, but pulls from the base attack of the highest attack nikke (which can include herself) instead of necessarily her own

@cyan sedge

[cyan sedge]

i see, thanks for your work

[clear vector]

That is how the word "ally" works in pokemon games

[fringe junco]

some players have unlocked guilty already

is there any dmg comparison with comps? by swapping out the 3 offensive B2 characters guilty vs dolla vs rupee?

[whole fox]

i dont think people is worried about the lawsuit

the are more worried about how spaggtti their source code are

u could something than u gonna be like where the fuck it it and it's literally everywhere

[meager elbow]

Finding that ammo recover cube is better than max ammo cube at level 3 and 7
level 1 ammo recover will give 11.11%
level 3 will give 25%
level 7 will give 42.86%

[tender summit]

Because interaction between bastion and max ammo are multiplicative

[atomic gyro]

Basically true in isolation, but once you factor in OL eq, then things are different

[wintry ravine]

does alices lifesteal even work?

I don't see her healing in sim room

pretty sure it just doesn't work xD

hmm I saw her heal but only when she was almost dead

[willow pecan]

She has to be below 80% to heal, at which point she loses her pierce afaik.

[plain flint]

Was the conclusion that wingman cube is better with OL gear with max ammo stats as compared to reload cube?

[tender summit]

No, bastion still better

[still drift]

discover research channel
cannot come to conclusion or interpret the data given
Use channel to ask the question again

[stable kindle]

Short attention syndrome on younger generation.🤣
Why bother read, when you can just ask (& then ignore it altogether if the answer is too long).🤣

[pearl parcel]

REAL

It's killing me inside 💀

You provide people informations and everything somewhere and instead of doing some searches they instantly go full ask mode

[wintry ravine]

yeah I'm aware but I think perhaps the tooltip might be wrong. Perhaps she doesn't switch to healing until under 20% total HP (loss of 80%)

I'll have to pay more attention to her in the coming days

[tender summit]

90% of community just want to be spoonfed

[pearl parcel]

They can s*** my d for that

[cyan sedge]

isnt that a team skill?

[still drift]

OH wait

dont mind me hiding the evidence

[cyan sedge]

[wintry ravine]

too late everyone has seen your shame

[still drift]

[cyan sedge]

Not sure if its been mentioned before, but Helm's skill 2 "ATK Damage" team buff seems to be a separate multiplier from the normal "ATK" buffs like Liter burst or Scarlet skill 1.
Was still getting a +7% increase in dmg from 24,512 to 26,228 despite already having +106.3% ATK buff stacked.

[molten robin]

Yea, that was established long ago

[cyan sedge]

oh ic mb

[molten robin]

I mean it can be difficult to determine what is and isn't known lol

But yea, it's its own category

Which ironically makes it worse than regular attack% in a lot of cases

Better in some like scarlet

This games damage formula is so fucked

[still drift]

Logging all of this for future refrence and proof :

Soda's S1 is not a "True Heal", just like Noise's Charge shot skill.

Soda healed with S2 Before she took damage, 0 heals.
Then she took damage from suiciders for 119004 damage.

Stack 3. 0 Heals done, although her HP moved upwards.

Soda will then proceed to cap out at 5 Stacks, and from then onwards, no longer recieve "pseudoheals" from her S1.

She, like Noise, must wait for her S1 Buff to EXPIRE before she recieves more pseudoheals.

[final pebble]

[dull zenith]

So each stack of Max HP gives her a pseudoheal but once it's maxed, refreshes don't heal her anymore

Pretty much expected

max hp +% raises current Hp by same +%

to maintain HP% ratio

[willow pecan]

(5+2)/12=7/12
5/10=6/12

hp% ratio is not maintained as a rule of thumb

[dull zenith]

Hmm her HP got moved up 8.9% on stack 3 while her max hp increased by 7.7%

[willow pecan]

if one number doesn't work, not all numbers work

you may find a number that works

but that won't do anything in the grand scheme of things

[molten robin]

no reason to get caught up in %s...they increase by the same value, not %

it's that simple

[dull zenith]

Good catch and didn't expect that

[dull zenith]

Here's some data on Soda

[modern badger]

for the bobba only

[molten robin]

On emulator?

[dull zenith]

I did it on emulator yes

[molten robin]

Yea it's tied to MG being shit on emulator

I haven't checked how closely this matches the passage of in game time but I believe it's very similar https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1059230763993800846/1072746795416961024/MG_RoF_by_FPS.png

This was testing austerity did for modernia

So if it takes 10s to shoot 300, with a reload speed of 2s (lowering it to benefit the calculation, assumes reload cube) that's 12s per 300, or 7.2s average to shoot 180 - add on the fact that speed is weighted to be slower at the start, and you have very little wiggle room, though you can shoot terrain when a boss jumps for example

The more concerning (to me) consequence of this is if this is accurate to in game time passage, emulators won't get max stacks before the 36s mark, which means her s2 doesn't fully kick in until 48s

I need to grab someone with her on emulator to verify that since I'm not gonna pull her

Even on a phone, you don't get her full s2 until 36s

And that's 80% of her healing

So for 36-48s, you have to survive with just her weak unbuffed s2, or run a second healer

Still potentially fights it could see use as a solo healer, if the damage doesn't kick in until a later phase, but that on top of how clunky it is depending on an uncontrollable 12s heal, I think she's bad

And looking at leaks, biscuit appears to fill the niche of non-burst healer far more effectively than soda

[wispy sequoia]

is shots/second not data-minable? i visit chinese theorycrafting sites and they seem to use a set of numbers as though it's "confirmed"

they use 40/s for MGs

[tender summit]

Lemme show you this part

[tender summit]

      "rate_of_fire": 60,
      "end_rate_of_fire": 4200,
      "rate_of_fire_change_pershot": 100,```

That's the data

[molten robin]

It varies based on fps

So even when an "intended" fire rate, in reality it will very from device to device

[molten robin]

is anyone able to themselves verify the claim that sin is copying buffed hp, not base?

[cyan sedge]

@still drift ye, right here. Later found out the healer had to have the buff when i tested her together with emma.

[still drift]

Casters hp

Tl moment?

[cyan sedge]

skill 1
Secretice
passive
■ When attacking full charge, 3 allies with the lowest HP
10
[Recovers 4.03% of caster's max HP]

yea, looks like an EN TL moment

burst skill
Garden of Shangri-La
active
Cooldown 60.00
■For all allies
(10
[Recovers 40.83% of caster's max HP]
To 1 ally with the highest attack power that died

also looks like they changed the burst revive targeting too. Its no longer random

charge time also seems wrong too compared to ingame from both EN and KR saying 1s charge time

https://arca.live/b/nikketgv/68686392?category=정보
and some korean guy tested to make sure its actually 1s
apparently if you auto/let AI control they take an extra 0.3s going in and out of cover inbetween shots for RL and i assume SR too

[still drift]

Hmmm maybe gotta yank numbers from Ingame, but fix with custom translation

[molten robin]

Yea I've mentioned this behavior in the past, I noticed that I'd see the start of my reload bar between shots on auto

Never delved further to see if it was an artifact of low fps

[native bane]

has anyone been able to complete this stat formula :

[ Base Stats * (1 + .02 * lb) + Flat * lb + GroupA ] * (1 + .02 * core) + GroupB

• Flat:
  + SSR: 3000 HP, 20 ATK, 100 DEF
  + SR : 2300 HP, 18 ATK, 90 DEF
• GroupA: Bond, Recycle
• GroupB: Gear, Cube

with the %ATK gained from OL gear ?

[molten robin]

It's just a buff applied after a fight starts

So it's mechanically identical to any other % attack buffs, such as scarlet self buff

[native bane]

I see thanks

[dull zenith]

Nikke.gg states that Mary and Poli's burst gen is different from all other SG units in that it's independent of how many pellets hit, and instead does only a flat 20

Is this... true?

Nvm just tested it... seems true

[molten robin]

No...it isn't lol

That just looks like a typo and they forgot to include the x10 for non-clip SG

They state it took 50s for full bar for Mary and poli

On the near test

[dull zenith]

Ah true

So 20x10

[molten robin]

Yes

[dull zenith]

I noticed that it was definitely less burst gen

But yeah not 20x less

[molten robin]

It's clip shotguns vs not clip

Not Mary and poli specifically

[dull zenith]

Right

[molten robin]

Isabel, guilty, soldier fa, etc

All the same

Was it soldier fa? It's one of the soldiers

[dull zenith]

Yeah Soldier FA is also 20x10

[still drift]

The Red Circle in Alteisen appears to be tied to a mechanic with Missiles, similar to what I've heard with Gravedigger.

Also, if you do get the double circle bug, you can't kill it.

So that means :
Don't slip into Phase 2 if Phase 1 is launching Missiles.

Not sure what triggered the bug in the first clip (waitwhat.mp4) though. Might be due to killing circle before killing all missiles.

[tiny current]

whats commander max level

[tender summit]

Yes

[tender summit]

1000

[cyan sedge]

@rapid marsh
Posting here to avoid going offtopic. I'm fairly certain its not core hitting otherwise the number would've been red. i tried critting to make sure.
Went from 185,770 to 278,656 which is a +50% increase
Since core hit and crit stack their bonuses additive, the crit would not have been a +50% increase unless the burst skill isn't core hitting.
on side note it seems like Admi's crit dmg boost does not work on burst skills.
Also the +50% bonus dmg from full burst mode does not apply to burst skill dmg.

[molten robin]

A perhaps inaccurate way of presenting the term "burst skill damage" because it is really "instant burst damage" you mean when you say FB bonus doesn't apply

Which has been known, instant burst 3s go off before the FB has taken place

But Laplace, modernia etc do benefit

[cyan sedge]

so basically the ones that switch weapons benefit the FB buff

[molten robin]

Well no

It is not inherently weapon swapping that matters so I would not draw that conclusion

What matters is a burst does some amount of sustained damage beyond the moment of hitting the burst

Similarly, I am not aware of admi's crit buff specifically not applying to bursts, but some abilities do have known delays as part of the animation fx, so it could be she had a delay and a b3 used before it applies would not be benefit

I can't tell from the short clip whether admi's buff has applied first

[cyan sedge]

ok i see what u mean theres some like Vesti where its not a weapon swap but she does sustained dmg after hitting burst

[molten robin]

I don't know what her buff symbols look like

[molten robin]

Right

It's a coincidence that it happens to be primarily weapon swappers that benefit

But nothing mechanically limits it to them

[cyan sedge]

yea seems to be the case, when i pause and check buffs immediately after Admi bursts, her crit buff doesnt show up until like a second later. after delaying Helm's burst she does get the bonus crit dmg

[molten robin]

Anne has an annoying delay too

These aren't present in pvp but require some manual play to line them up with b3s in pve

[cyan sedge]

for reference

[sharp herald]

Is buff delay a common thing? Cocoa's cleanse is also delayed too iirc

[cyan sedge]

trying to check everyone atm, rupee and poli seem to be safe

[molten robin]

fairly so, yes

[molten robin]

the values are dataminable, I wouldn't worry about testing all for it

[cyan sedge]

oh bruh so its intended delay?

[molten robin]

well, intended in the sense that it's been done on purpose

it is in the animation fx, so my assumption is for characters with special effects or animation, they add a delay so the effect lins up with the animation in some way

in anne's case, lining up with the butterflies falling on people

so I don't think they were added as part of some intentional balancing or mechanical design, but for aesthetic logic purposes

[willow pecan]

just a head's up, your original 5 MLB used to break the 160 wall cannot be removed as a synchro slot after hitting and breaking 200 synchro

so I had 5 mlb, brought them to 200, then invested to 200+, they move into the top bar of the new synchro device. Now I try to remove one of them from the synchro, they can't be removed. Whoever moves into the TOP bar of the improved synchro unit likely cannot be removed regardless of how many mlbs you have. So keep that in mind I guess.

[tender summit]

Yeah, that's always made for anti exploiting for free 5 slots

[still drift]

Technically is free 5 slot, just you cant reuse them.

[light rain]

Not sure how much it matters but I think the PC version hotkeys let you hit burst skills before they're a clickable zone on the screen. On PC version I can get through all stages of burst skills at what seems to be as fast as I can mash. In this screenshot you can still see the burst 1 unit frame exiting the screen while the burst 3 units are entering https://i.imgur.com/livxS2a.png
There's no shot that I'd be able to replicate that on my emulator. I wonder if PC version can go too fast to apply some of the non-instant buffs that emulator would naturally get on burst skills.

[willow pecan]

You can also switch Nikke before you can see them on screen

So if you want to start on pos5 just spam t

Tpose

[formal inlet]

.

[atomic gyro]

Aw hell yeah, I stopped a stationary train from derailing

[native bane]

hey, I have nothing to add to the previous conversation

@formal inlet this is the formula if youre curious

[formal inlet]

I always thought this was in research department

[native bane]

the 35% you said is because for some reason LB gives 100 flat defense which is pretty insane at level 1

[formal inlet]

I see
Bond stats multiply

[atomic gyro]

I feel like I should just post this into the #research-results so that you guys can point to it easily later on

[native bane]

yes with core only

which is why core are a bit superior

except lb gives access to bond levels

which are really good

also about this I think this is true from about lvl 600~700 so no need to worry about it for now lol

[formal inlet]

Wow I'll need to dig up on my maths for this one, and I have no time to do that for now. Maybe if I stick around for one year I will

[atomic gyro]

But then again, Core Scaling requires Limit breaks

It's a prerequisite, not a choice

[native bane]

true but I did it to compare my characters to a whales characters

[formal inlet]

The question here was if core breaks are worth it. Like eg if you have enough mileage, should you get a limit break or a core break

[native bane]

to see if im losing out on a lot of stat from not getting Drake cores

[formal inlet]

Like, at least to me it was

[atomic gyro]

Ah yeah

Fair enough

Make a thread in the #1046549179918458890

[formal inlet]

This too

[ocean coral]

what is this.... nvm im out have fun "researching"

[still drift]

The best way to think about it :
The only question you need to ask : Is the next Spare Body worth it?
At Core stages, you're getting worse returns than the first 3 LBs, how much? Just worse, I'm not expecting it to break even in our lifetimes for F2P. It doesn't need to be defined.

If you're comparing between getting a LB or a Core between two distinct units, you need to compare the units themselves first. Only then you should calculate for the difference between Core and LB.
Usually the answer is already evident by comparing the units already.

Regarding what to spend your Silver Mileage on :
This type of stat inflation only matters for your DPS units.
But there is a power calculator for Limit Breaks and Cores, if you want to inflate CP.

If you're willing to put in the work, I personally would like to see it "defined properly".
But this is extremely tedious work of digging through every single character's values for Relationship, and then also making a whole ass damn calculator for their Levels.

Every single calculatormaker such as Pegram or Khoners has already burnt out. So if you want a concrete answer, put in the hours.

[formal inlet]

Thanks for the answer, I guess the main point comes back to what you said here, there is a need for a calc to really answer this definitively, but it does make sense that getting dupes for your main dps is the only thing that matters cuz in the end, they're carrying the team

[still drift]

Makima : TBD


Power : 
Went from completely useless to a strong unit compared to the leaked unit data.
S1 : ATK+ On Charge.
  Her scaling is kinda okay now. 32% ATK up when fully stacked, as long as she continuously fullcharges.

S2: Bigger explosion radius when you land 18 attacks when S1 is charged.
Reload 100%+ Once per battle.

Burst : 1584% ATK on single target. If fully stacked S1, do it twice.
3184% as damage.
Loses out to SW (5000% ATK damage, also pierces, which allows for anglesnipes), but doesn't require charge time which might be better in scenarios where you're not given time to charge her Burst.(But Power can stack 5x on S1?)

Himeno (Welfare, not gacha unit):
Handmade for Alice and Maxwell based comps, she becomes an attractive option to play around with solely for her Burst since she can modify your charge damage.
Your mileage may vary, do the math and see if her Charge Damage for your best RL/SR unit will make a bigger impact for your team compared to static ATK buffs in Burst2.

Summaries :

Power is a nice RL unit, but keep in mind burst 3 is already completely saturated with fantastic options for all niches already.

I seriously advise against pulling Power for gameplay reasons, pull because you want her homescreen when you pull her 4x or you want to play around with her animations.

Lets be honest, you're not pulling these two units for their kits. Pull them because they're Limited Collab units.

Meta diehards can completely ignore Power, and maybe pull for Makima.

@acoustic cedar @cold flint @molten robin @static apex @final pebble @native bane @cyan sedge @formal inlet @wintry ravine

Thoughts and opinions on Power?

[final pebble]

[acoustic cedar]

Limited vers of Guillotine

[still drift]

Guillotine is too stupid to use

Asking for players to drop Guillotine to half to actually unlock her burst

[cold flint]

Power is a strong unit but since her stack have 3s duration she needs to keep firing full charged shots and cannot reload

Which means you need heavy ammo capacity up

From overload eq

[acoustic cedar]

How does stack count work in Nikke? 🤔
Every shot refresh the duration? What about multi hits?

[still drift]

Should be shot count, and yeah the duration refreshes per shot.

Noise for comparison.

So Power is definitely going to run into charge issues and keeping up her stacks without some support...

Dang, why did they nerf her buff duration

that is EXTREMELY cringe

[willow pecan]

I have an idea why

[cyan sedge]

I think with just reload cube, she should be able to maintain stacks between reloads since she just needs to fire the fully charged shot rather than hit something with it

[willow pecan]

It's related to her S2

But it's gonna sound like I overdosed on copium

We'll see tomorrow

[molten robin]

she is prob fine with reload cube

but to add to the SW comparison, the way you laid it out is actually quite unfavorable for SW despite already appearing better in the example, because power's burst wont benefit from the FB bonus, while SW not only gets that, but she gets the range bonus when the enemy is in AR range, + pierce means she can multiply her damage by 2-4 times depending on part proximity

but min it doubles her damage most of the time

in terms of ST burst impact, SW, maxwell, alice all blow power out of the water

laplace maybe, I havent done the math on her burst

power is basically a superior brid, but not by much - I did see brid see some use in the last UR, but I don't think power is anything special

[still drift]

Hmmm.. Yeah, I think its an oversimplification of why SW would blow her out of the water.

But I also want to respect players who are actually pilgrimless

But its actually looking preeettty grim for Power atm

[molten robin]

not getting FB is kind of a rip

that's a design flaw of the instant B3s imo

[still drift]

Is there literally anything I can say in a very short summary that would prevent Power from being noob bait?

It seems like alot of people ended up pulling for Soda even though it was pretty grim for her.

[molten robin]

it's fine when it's an extra part of your kit, like pepper, but if your entire kit depends on your burst, not getting FB is pretty much a 33% damage penalty

[molten robin]

perhaps highlight how instant B3 dont get the FB damage bonus, that's probably a little-known fact that most dont think about

[still drift]

[acoustic cedar]

Maybe comparison vs SW? And dont pull more than one copy for non spenders? 🤔

[molten robin]

if anything compare her to maxwell

[still drift]

#community-votes Doesn't allow for anything more than approx 1 paragraph

Just call her bad unit, pull for waifu

[molten robin]

like in theory the point of an instant b3 is to frontload the burst damage, so you can consolidate all of it within the window of something like a novel burst

but you're basically just canceling out that you lack the FB bonus lol

and RL base damage is low

[still drift]

Power :
A strong, usable RL unit in her own right, decent selfish ATK buff, but requires minor support for 100% uptime.
Her burst pales in comparison to all other options currently available on the market for Singletarget Burst (SW, Maxwell, Alice) due to various in-depth reasons. (Full Burst bonus, Range advantage, Pierce)

Pull for her looks, or for the fact that she's a Limited Collab unit.
Don't expect much out of her kit for usability purposes.

[molten robin]

perhaps you meant alice in place of brid?

[still drift]

Fixed

Now just waiting for Makima post on twitter for confirmation on final skills.

I'm half expecting her to remain the same, and the conclusion is that shes just a PvP unit

[acoustic cedar]

7secs zombie tanker

[sharp herald]

So every B3 that is not transformative (SW/Laplace) or a buff (Alice), won't get the FB bonus? Or is it depending on how long the does burst take to land the actual hit (Like the delayed xanne buff or cocoa cleanse)?

[formal inlet]

She's out, and she's the same
PvP it is for her. If she wasn't smg and had some damage output, she would possibly be usable for solo bosses as a good tank. You probably get a FB every ~120 bullets so she would be healing during that time.
Pierce on smg is so weird, idk what they planned to do with this

[wintry ravine]

Power is actually best compared to Laplace and to a lesser extent Vesti as they are the only SSR RL attackers we have. This is a very premium weapon setup and that fact shouldn't be underestimated. RL is the best overall weapon type (SG not far behind but still behind imo.. of course it's stage dependant).

All 3 have a skill which increases the AoE of rocket attacks so lets start there. Vesti essentially has 100% uptime of 15% increased AoE. Laplace has to charge up her AoE with regular attacks but reaches full stacks after just 5 attacks which should be doable very early in a battle (5~ seconds if she attacks freely) and has a decent 5 second stack uptime so they shouldn't drop off too easily. When at full stacks she has 17.85% increased AoE. Practically a wash between Laplace and Vesti here, assuming there aren't some edge case boss scenarios where Lalplace's marginally better AoE allows her to hit more parts.

Power seems to have to be at max stacks of her S1 (which should take around 5~ secs in optimal conditions) and also have to land 18 normal attacks to activate her larger AoE. This is pretty bad to terrible. If the 18 stack count always runs regardless of her current S1 status and then simply waits for S1 to be at max stacks before activating.. then it's not great news but not terrible. If we assume very good uptime on her S1 (which isn't a given.. we'll talk about that later), then it still takes 22~ seconds to get off those 18 auto attacks. The larger AoE lasts for 10 seconds so best case scenario is a 45.5% uptime. The good news is that it is a larger AoE increase than Laplace or Vesti at a 38.61% increase. If however the 18 stack count only increases while she is in max stacks of blood fiend.. then the S2 becomes worse still meaning it would at least require an additonal 7 seconds to reach her first AoE increase. Worse case scenario the 18 stack count only increases whilst she is at max S1 stacks and resets when she loses max S1 stacks.. RIP if so.

Even with the larger AoE the large ramp up time of a minimum of 22~ seconds and the by comparison meagre 45% uptime compared to Laplace and Vesti skills which are virtually 100% uptime makes Power the loser here. She might find some niche use where her larger AoE can hit multiple boss parts that Laplace or Vesti can't but the low uptime of the AoE increase makes that use seem a bit far fetched.

Comparing her remaining regular skill with Laplace.. On Laplace we have additional damage on last bullet and a bonus damage to boss parts. Power simply has a ramping up atk buff stacking to 32% at max. Power's skill here is actually significantly better than Laplaces as the additional last bullet damage and additional damage to boss parts just scales of her base attack and doesn't scale with any external skill modifiers so is in reality a pretty small additional bonus. I did do the math at some point but it's probably only something like a 10-15% damage increase overall.

Finally looking at the burst of Laplace and Power...

Looking at my own math regarding Laplce burst (https://www.reddit.com/r/NikkeMobile/comments/z6zy81/laplace_burst_math/)
Laplace burst does aprox 3750% of atk when factoring burst time damage bonus. Power's will hit for 3200% as it does not benefit from burst time bonus (assumption). Laplace does take 5 seconds to fire off that damage however so assumming Power fires around 4 shots in that time (accounting for some extra time for animations in addition to charge time) we get 62atk * 4 attacks * 1.5 burst time damage for 372% more damage.. which takes powers total to 3572%~ vs a single target. However accounting for her own atk bonus on S1 we can multiply that by 1.32 taking the total to 4715% of her regular attack value.

So in theory Power will deal 25% more damage to a single target in the duration of the 5 seconds whilst Laplace is bursting. However in reality Laplace has a very large piercing AoE during her burst and Power's is actually genuinely single target. In all the situations where laplace is valued she makes use of this fact so the reality is Laplace's burst is much stronger in scenarios where you'd use her.

TLDR; IMO Laplace and Power could almost be considered side grade characters.. but in the end Laplace pips her to actual usefullness thanks to doubling down on her AoE nature making her more useful in situations where you can abuse AoE.

Power will in fact do more damage in situations where Laplace's burst cannot make use of it's multi hit nature. However unfortunately for power in situations where that is true there are better B3 alternative characters.

Power is still generally decently strong and providing they don't make her S1 and S2 interactions total jank as described above she should feel quite strong in most of the games content.

Where power may actually shine very bright is when a 1-1-3 team (as the 3rd B3 who doesn't use burst) with AoE requirements is favored.

@acoustic cedar @cold flint @molten robin @static apex | UNION 絶対領域 @final pebble | SSR Rapi @native bane @cyan sedge @Snow White's Drool

[willow pecan]

My personal guess is that reload +100% means power will instareload until death or end of battle after first 18 charged shots

Sounds cope so we'll see tomorrow, but I'm calling it now.

Potentially broken memes if piloted manually and macro-ed to spam uncharged shots like a AoE MG

[wintry ravine]

I suppose in theory there might be situations where the regular RL aoe is enough to hit multiple boss parts so Laplaces's +17% AoE is effectively doing nothing. If that is true AND the boss also has another part or many that are within Power's 38% increased AoE that could result in a significant damage increase whilst her AoE passive is active.. hmm. Not sure we have bosses where that would currently be true

[atomic gyro]

Hey Misuzu, you wanna post that in #1046549179918458890?

[wintry ravine]

you can post it for me if you want, I never read that place anyways

I just read here 😛

besides it's more speculation

[formal inlet]

One can only confirm this tomorrow

[wintry ravine]

yeah Power will follow the Laplace model most likely if she finds use. Extremely strong in certain stages. Hard to predict what those are with out testing

[atomic gyro]

Fair, so once she's out and you confirm your speculations...

[wintry ravine]

I'm not sure I'm gonna pull her xD

I already have a pretty good laplace so haven't got a ton of need for Power

kind of tempting anyways

[atomic gyro]

It's limited

[wintry ravine]

If I luck sack Makima early I might pull on power too

[formal inlet]

Power probably will need reload cube as far as I can see, the window for the stack cooldown is too narrow

[formal inlet]

This is cope

[willow pecan]

Yeah I think it's 170% cope

[wintry ravine]

Should I now write an essay on Makima

[formal inlet]

I mean I would love to read it

[wintry ravine]

I need some more time to really think her through, her kit is very unique. I do think she will probably end up having more pve usefulness than most imagine though

[sharp herald]

two very important point i might add is that

1. Laplace burst is controllable, you can break parts with it, can aim to pierce multiple parts even
2. Laplace has much easier access to core hit

[formal inlet]

Same, I see her being used as a noise substitute a lot, probably even a better one. I don't know how well her smg will do for her tho

[wintry ravine]

yeah Laplace burst is significantly better than Power's that's for sure

[sharp herald]

though power might be better in cases like teleporting/mobile enemies

since it's instant

[wintry ravine]

I'm thinking I'm gonna use Makima vs train since I never wanted to learn the noise dodging tech

[native bane]

isnt makima 40s?

[sharp herald]

20s

[formal inlet]

The problem for me rn is how synced full bursts will be to her taunt

[sharp herald]

yeah makima's taunt sadly isn't on demand

[wintry ravine]

you could argue that her taunt being bullet based actually gives you the best control of it

like you can manual her and hold it for as long as you like

pain in the ass sure but it's not linked to a burst rotation so not time bound in that sense

[sharp herald]

still dissapointed with makima's kit being a recycled xrupee. They gave power a complete makeover but left makima untouched

[wintry ravine]

I don't really think she plays anything like Xrupee though

like Xrupee was just meant to be a team buffer tank with a sort of cool burst interaction

makima is really all based around her last stand

which is a 1 time only thing so I think her use will kind of be like a berserker almost

you will use when you want to rush / burst DPS as fast as possible

she'll primarily be used in difficult stages with high instances of single target damage that you try to rush through

[sharp herald]

yeah but at least they should've lean in more to the tanking aspect rather than just copy xrupee's kit except for 1 skill

same buffs also

[wintry ravine]

I guess you could argue it's unimaginative to give a 2nd new taunter character reload and def buffs also.. but it's all delivered so differently I don't think it really matters

it's not like if instead of reload she gave crit damage for example.. it's not like it makes her better or more interesting

sometimes even having a similar kit makes for interesting points of comparison or synergy

[sharp herald]

true but the game is still pretty young, so it is pretty weird that they resort to copying an existing unit this early on.
It's not like copying xrupee's kit beneficial to makima either.
They could have easily create a unique kit for her. Like a thorns tank or converting dmg taken to healing while she's invincible

[cyan sedge]

Regarding Laplace's burst dmg. The recent dev notes seem to suggest that there is in fact supposed to be some initial dmg, but its apparently been bugged this whole time.

[molten robin]

I'm not terribly familiar with Laplace burst mechanics, but does she still benefit from the hit on parts mechanic during it?

[molten robin]

interestingly it looks like it's been functional

going back and looking at random burst videos on youtube

diff video

it's sort of a blink and youll miss it deal, and by their description it sounds like it may have been hitting a target you arent paying attention to, like off to the side and not the same one you're aiming at

but she's somehow actually had this initial nuke the entire time?

[cyan sedge]

Damn and it pierces too

[molten robin]

yea

it looks like "additional damage" mechanically, so cant core hit presumably

and doesnt benefit from FB I think

[formal inlet]

It's still good damage tho, 50.5k(plus pierce) ain't no joke

[molten robin]

right

not sure the pierce matters though

if it is just additional damage mechanically, the pierce is meaningless

[cyan sedge]

"Additional dmg" does benefit from +50% FBM. Unless its like the 3s instant burst dmg

[molten robin]

I didnt mean to implty it doesnt benefit because of that, but because it's her initial damage on her burst

aka takes place before FB starts

[cyan sedge]

Ah ic

[still drift]

Makima :
SMG Taunter Tank B2 
S1 : Teamwide Stat bumps for ReloadSPD and DEF when hit 20 times.
S2 : Global Taunt for 3s after landing 120 shots. Indomitable skill (Undying for 7s).
Burst : Pierce for 10s, HP Recovery, extra HP recovery if during Undying/Indomitablity.

Makima Summary:
Makima is a Burst2 SMG Taunter with a gimmicky Undying Skill.
She's expected to be an incredibly PvP Meta unit. A literal undying S2 will safeguard at least the B2 slot and ensures it going off.
The taunt and skill on being hit allows for synergy with your Jackal team, and has some decent sustain on Burst, Pierce is a bonus only for PvE content.
For PvE focused content, her undying skill allows for interesting NON teamwide damage mechanic bypasses, most notably, tanking Alteisen turrets.  

Power : 
Went from completely useless to a strong unit compared to the leaked unit data.
S1 : ATK+ On Charge.
  Her scaling is kinda okay now. 32% ATK up when fully stacked, as long as she continuously fullcharges.
S2: Bigger explosion radius when you land 18 attacks when S1 is charged.
Reload 100%+ Once per battle.
Burst : 1584% ATK on single target. If fully stacked S1, do it twice. 3184% as damage.
Loses out to SW (5000% ATK damage, also pierces, which allows for anglesnipes), but doesn't require charge time which might be better in scenarios where you're not given time to charge her Burst.(But Power can stack 5x on S1?)

Power Summary:
Power is a strong RL DPS unit with her S1 and S2 being very decent, but it is important to keep in mind Burst 3 is already completely saturated with fantastic options for all niches already.
It's best to compare her as a sidegrade to Laplace, where Power will shine in Mob Clearing, and Laplace being a Bossing focused unit.
Her burst seriously pales in comparison to all other options currently available on the market for Singletarget Burst (SW, Maxwell, Alice) due to various in-depth reasons. (Full Burst bonus, Range advantage, Pierce).

I seriously advise against pulling Power for solely gameplay reasons, pull because you want her home screen when you pull her 4x or you want to play around with her animations.

You're not pulling these two units for their kits. Pull them because they're Limited Collab units.
Meta diehards can completely ignore Power, and maybe pull for Makima.

Indepth Power analysis by Misuzu : #1042458757843656774 message
Full Burst note on Power by Fierywind : #1042458757843656774 message

[molten robin]

So if I take your math in the reddit thread (it's worth exploring 80 vs 96 hits now that we have the super smooth PC client) and add the 900% for the initial damage, then increase the true damage portion by 20% (my fairly conservative estimate of the reduction seen from defense on a boss), I arrive at closer to 4800% damage done instead of 3750%, then: the aimed portion can core hit, which can increase that damage portion by at least half, and it can pierce which can double that damage portion pretty easily, so I think the spectrum of Laplace burst damage looks like: 4800-6000% pretty easily

It would be interesting to see a very thorough analysis of Laplace burst damage under different conditions

But at a glance I'd say her burst pretty easily is better than power's

[cyan sedge]

https://arca.live/b/nikketgv/69733803?category=정보
So it looks like Liter s2 cover repair is super scuffed. if 1 character's cover is destroyed, it'll only repair 1 ally's cover. if 2 characters have destroyed cover, then it basically becomes a dead skill. I think what happening is that when the skill checks for "lowest HP of cover" its targeting the destroyed cover which have 0 HP, but since it cant "revive" cover, nothing happens.

[still drift]

Just use Biscuit

[molten robin]

That's interesting, I knew it didn't repair broken cover, but hadn't made the connection that it still targeted it

[wintry ravine]

@cyan sedge @molten robin

Wow pretty interesting to see that Laplace now does that initial tick of damage. Me and a few others went frame by frame on a few videos and that initial tick certainly wasn't present before

Yeah your quick update to my math Fiery seems accurate enough.

It probably is worth testing how many bullets she fires on PC too

[molten robin]

From what it sounds like, it was hitting a different target than what was being aimed at, so it could have been off to the side or generally not where people were looking for it

[wintry ravine]

I might dig up the old videos and watch them they should still be around here

if they survived some purges

[molten robin]

I'm willing to bet the shot count on PC client is 96 if not higher though

I'll check when I get home later

[wintry ravine]

I'll give that a test later when I wake up more

[molten robin]

Or you can

[wintry ravine]

will be interesting to compare my PC result to yours

might still be FPS diff

[molten robin]

Yea we can both give it a SHOT

[wintry ravine]

it's a quick test, you can do it by eye pretty accurately

[molten robin]

Was it cope?

[cyan sedge]

can anyone confirm the OL hitrate working again for Modernia S2?

[still drift]

Going rn

@cyan sedge Works

Giant Leap is triggered

[cyan sedge]

Sweet

[molten robin]

Also a correction in favor of power, you only added the base damage for her attacks and not her full damage after charge (*3.5)

[wintry ravine]

ah true

[molten robin]

Though the benefit assigned to her for her own attack buff is going to be misleading in most real situations

It will be some amount less

But it's more complicated to assign that a more accurate value without adding assumptions, like having liter

[willow pecan]

Didn't get the unit yet so idk, sorry.

[molten robin]

@wintry ravine got an idea for a good test method for laplace shots? I cant distinguish hits even frame by frame

[wintry ravine]

there is an ammo counter that appears on screen when she fires her burst

it counts down from 1000

[molten robin]

...really?

[wintry ravine]

yeah it's very near the firing reticule

[molten robin]

?

[wintry ravine]

take a full screenshot

must be further out

[wintry ravine]

🤔

[molten robin]

I see it above her when im not controlling her, on the bottom where it displays party ammo

I hadnt noticed that before

[ornate solar]

maybe its PC client thing?

[molten robin]

could be

[ornate solar]

cuz i swear it got 999 also on mine

[wintry ravine]

let me find old screenshots

[molten robin]

that's where I can see it

[wintry ravine]

#1042458757843656774 message

see here

[molten robin]

weird

[wintry ravine]

wonder if they changed it or if it's a PC thing

guess I could boot up my emulator install

but I would have to patch

[molten robin]

92 shots for me

[wintry ravine]

hmm

ok let me check my pc

[molten robin]

my pc is pretty potato and im running obs to record it

so it shouldn't get any worse than that on pc client

[wintry ravine]

when I tested on emulator running screen record did cost me some bullets for sure

[molten robin]

when I tried again 93 shots

[wintry ravine]

booting up now

wonder if I can get above 94

I think I saw 98 once

so I think it is possible

[molten robin]

ill try low settings too

I've been leaving them on max

[wintry ravine]

damn it goes so fast to tell by eye lol

seemed easier with the old counter

think I saw 907 there so 93

[molten robin]

yea I closed obs and tried to judge by eye, but it would be hard to tell if it was a 1 or maybe even 2 diff

[molten robin]

that would be 92

since you started at 999

[wintry ravine]

liter might be throwing this off my ammo goes above 999 breifly at the start

1200 odd

[molten robin]

yea I noticed that too

I assumed it wasnt an issue and the first shot fired dropped to 998 (I think), but worth checking without liter

[wintry ravine]

trying with pepper now

[molten robin]

92 seems like a safe baseline to do math with though

[wintry ravine]

def saw 905 there

[molten robin]

so 94

[wintry ravine]

squints

[molten robin]

ill retry without liter as well, maybe 1-2 shots are being eaten by liter shenanigans

[wintry ravine]

you could probably call it a cool 93 shots, seems to vary slightly

[molten robin]

seems reasonable to me

[wintry ravine]

but nothing like the variations we were seeing before

I wonder if they'll ever be a way to increase fire rate for allies

in fact isn't there a way already

[molten robin]

no

[wintry ravine]

some unused nikke has a crappy fire rate buff I think

maybe I'm mis remembering

probably faulty memory

[molten robin]

you did make me double check, but no

[wintry ravine]

they will probably avoid fire rate increases I guess due to FPS issues and the fact FPS affects dps 😛

[molten robin]

you used 94 as your basis in the reddit article, and I think that holds up reasonably

[wintry ravine]

yup

impressed my emulator managed what seems to be capped DPS on her

guess I would lose frames in hectic fights perhaps

we should find someone still using emulator to see if laplace still has the number counter next to the reticule or not

it would be kinda crazy if the PC and Android versions are so different

even if they are now the same it's an undocumented change they made to laplace burst visuals

which makes me think we weren't just being blind and missing that big initial tick of damage back when we tested it lol

or find someone who plays on phone 😛

[elfin sphinx]

What number are you looking for? Not sure I have anything useful, but I recorded 3 bursts of Laplace on my iPad and got the last frame before the ammo went back to 6/6 if that's any use.

[wintry ravine]

just wanted to know if the ammo still appears next to the fire reticule on android

during burst that is

[elfin sphinx]

oh android, doh

[wintry ravine]

IOS is fine too I guess

#1042458757843656774 message

that's what it looked like on laplace release

#1042458757843656774 message

that's what it looks like on PC

[elfin sphinx]

Ah you need it from Laplace POV, I can get a quick capture of that on ios.

[wintry ravine]

[molten robin]

@wintry ravine threw this together: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wyAzolr6FeR92JSjLI42a91uVb8GqPl2M3CYIf7fdLQ/edit?usp=sharing

lmk if you spot any errors

I assumed power hits 5 shots during lap burst duration, and hits 2 targets (a part)

I should look at a scenario where there's no parts to hit, but you'd be using these units on bosses with parts, realistically

I assumed max liter burst buff as well, with no other sources of attack

the more sources added, the more laplace pulls ahead

the most relevant comparison here is power hitting 2 targets vs lap piercing 2 targets (a part and a non part) where lap is 66% better

[elfin sphinx]

Right after her burst triggers the normal ammo display reads 999 but then it disappears and you end up with this for the rest of her burst:

[molten robin]

unless I messed up somewhere

[wintry ravine]

thanks Trynne, looks like they just removed the ammo display next to reticule on all versions I guess

had a quick glance of your spreadsheet fiery but I'm too tired for maths

perhaps it needs tested but I think 4 attacks might be a more realistic amount for power to fire during the 5 sec of laplace burst. I know charge time is 1 sec but each shot has a reload animation

[molten robin]

I chose 5 just to favor power

I try to make assumptions that favor what I believe will be disadvantaged

when doing comparisons

[wintry ravine]

hm fair enough as long as it doesn't make a huge difference

[molten robin]

I mean it doesnt in this case

[wintry ravine]

I'll have a more thorough look once I've had more sleep

[cyan sedge]

Depends, if u manual you can skip the cover animation after each shot

[molten robin]

as your initial math would indicate, with no parts involved power has the edge thanks to her autos, with power being 9% better

but the issue is I think all bosses with no parts have a core

if no parts but core can be hit, laplace is 16% favored

the largest gap is 1 part that both can splash, since it doubles all of laplace's damage except the initial hit, but only doubles the auto attack portion of power's damage

favoring laplace by 66%

and realistically, you're using these units on bosses with parts

my conclusion: in all situations you're likely to use them, laplace burst is better

Ofc, I didn't touch non-burst damage comparisons

Or even damage during FB but after lap's 5s

[molten robin]

I also didnt include the scenario of core hits + pierce because that will be vast overkill compared to power lol

but there are some scenarios where that happens

worth nothing I also didnt include core hits for power's auto attacks though you can technically core hit with RL if you find the right angle the boss isnt moving

im seeing that the second hit of power's burst benefits from FB

I'll add that in

that helps significantly ofc, that adjusts to: no parts no core power is up by 27%, no parts but core it's a wash, and with 1 part lap is only up by 46% now

that definitely helps power a lot, since she should do more non-burst damage than lap

personally, her getting FB on the 2nd half + non-damage considerations (it's not unfair to consider her as inevitably getting full OL gear since she is the only abnormal attacker, but there's several missilis attackers) has shifted me from dont pull to pull

[willow pecan]

just curious for confirmation

that reload up 100% one time offer doesn't work like my copium infused fantasy suggested, then?

[molten robin]

no

[willow pecan]

thank you

[barren nexus]

great finding on the 2nd burst half benefiting from FB bonus

I was while doing testing finding that the first half didn't

[molten robin]

credit to nikke.gg

saw it in their analysis

[molten robin]

yea tbh I assumed neither would, but I did at least consider the possibility that the 2nd half was delayed

brid might be the same but I've literally never used brid

[barren nexus]

maybe it's time for me to test

the first hit even graciously crit for me!

[molten robin]

lol

that's nice to know for future kit analysis

[barren nexus]

yep

might as well do it for guillotine too ig

just to cover all bases

yo maybe I should just try this for all Nikkes that have a second half attack?

Like Maiden?

.....will this bitch please lose HP faster

fuck I can't get her to lose enough HP in time, fuck it, I'm not bothering

just gonna test maiden instead

it works for maiden too!

think the 89717 is due to the effect of Jackal's S1

raising damage taken for that target by 6.36%

[molten robin]

so revisiting this, this is either a very recent issue, or doesnt happen all the time

I checked some footage from my clan's modernia attempts and even with 3 broken covers, liter restored the remaining 2

[barren nexus]

291105/68492 = 4.25

the second part of Isabel's burst is supposed to do 2x the damage of the "initial"

combined with 1.5 from FB, we'd expect it to deal "3x" more damage

but there's an extra 1.25...

Isabel's burst only increases damage taken by 1.3 so that shouldn't be it

[molten robin]

is she applying her s1 attack buff after she uses her initial burst, but before the following effects?

I'd assume this applies after you use your burst, as that's the trigger

[barren nexus]

maybe

I'll first math out that that crit is correct

vs the non-crits

and then verify the ATK part

[molten robin]

what's your attack, and what's the % buff you have at your skill level?

I can quickly math that out

[barren nexus]

I'm doing that rn but here's the stats

Liter is 10/X/10

Dolla is 5/5/5

dolla's burst did hit first

so it didn't delay

[molten robin]

well if you're doing it I'll leave you to it

[barren nexus]

(I think)

yeah I'm working it out rn

hate that I made it so complicated but 1.5min is too slow to get to Isabel stacks

(2+.1427+0.0802+.1246)/1.5 = 1.565

455580/291105

[molten robin]

eyeballing the math it appears to line up if the attack increase is the cause

[barren nexus]

Okay so math checks out, Isabel burst part 2 def benefits from full burst

now I'll verify that the ratio increase is due to ATK% applying later...

alright so the first part is def affect only by liter buffs...

second half looks like it's affected by both the ATK up from S1, the damage up portion of the burst, and the FB buff?

well no, this can't be the case because Dolla's S2 was definitely applied based on the crit calculation above...

MONKA

her second part of the damage gained the effect of Dolla's S1 after the burst was cast!

have to test this with power now

[molten robin]

dolla's s2 has a delay yea

unsure about s1

dont think so though

so timing just lined up I guess?

[barren nexus]

S1 ticked in the middle of the animation for isabel's burst

is what happened

so now I'm trying to confirm if I can replicate this effect with power

by timing dolla's S1 to activate mid-animation for power's burst

[barren nexus]

was referring to S1 since the amount of Isabel's ATK increase + dolla's S2 didn't add up, but Dolla's S1 does

[molten robin]

isabel's s1, right

[barren nexus]

Isabel's S1 yeah

the difference is a couple %

like 3% too high if we assume Isabel's S1 proc'd

but if we assume Dolla's S1 proc'd the value matches

I know Dolla S2 def had to have proc'd since the crit calculation has her crit damage in it

so now I'm checking if I can get Dolla's S1 to apply to power's burst second half mid animation

but not to the initial

HOLY SHIT

IT WORKED

544622/329767 = 1.65153578132

it's perfect

hypothesis: the "additional damage" portion of instant damage bursts all dynamically snap the damage buffs of the character

the "initial damage" portion is snapshotted during the initial cast of the burst

here's proof of the timing

More easily replicatable with Privaty

Privaty's S1 does not apply to the initial hit, but it does apply to the second hit

I'm going to do a reverse test as well

I'm going to try to have Dolla's S1 FALL OFF after the cast

and see if the second half damage actually lowers

Holy fuck

it did

yep another example of the phenomenon with Yulha

....wait a minute

why are there two hits of the 168367????

dafaq?

it's double damage of what I expected???

[molten robin]

hmmm

[barren nexus]

AH FUCK

This shows that Jackal is dogshit

HAHAHAHA

Jackal's burst only works on the FIRST part of Power's burst!

Because she loses the buff!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[molten robin]

wait

the buff gets consumed?

[barren nexus]

YEP!

The buff gets consumed on cast

[molten robin]

lol

[barren nexus]

so the 2nd half of power's burst

doesn't benefit from it!!!!

[molten robin]

💀

[barren nexus]

very funny

tbh

prob time to submit a bug report to shift up

for this bs

this type of interaction barely makes these instant damage bursts usable

but then it takes a fat shit all over jackal

[barren nexus]

Also I noticed just now that Vesti does 10% more damage on autos?

oh wait

elemental damage bonus

strange brid's bonus is clearly 1.1

on burst

[molten robin]

wdym?

[barren nexus]

I've noticed that for some strange reason

elemental damage bonus applied from brid is 1.1x on burst, but for privaty

the damage bonus was surprisingly

1.2!

on burst

[molten robin]

do you have an ele damage OL?

[barren nexus]

nope