Research Dungeon

[still drift]

Just kill them before they kill you

Simply by not having Liter as your sole B1, you're losing out on a significant amount of DPS already.

Oneshots are avoided by Centi,
and it would be more favorable to slot in Rapunzel as a side B1 for healing, due to her skills.
Pepper would be a bit more down the list.

[sweet ocean]

@rare shellYou should add some snippets in the Defender part on how shield works in this game (soaking up oneshots)

[rare shell]

i've been thinking about this but i haven't really had a source. can you link me to one or is it just a general known thing

thanks a lot! progress is slow since i'm really busy

[sweet ocean]

It's a known thing for tryhards

[rare shell]

its like regardless of shield HP, it soaks ANY amount of damage that goes over shield HP by 1 instance right?

[sweet ocean]

Rapi has 1000 HP, she also has a 1 HP shield
Chatterbox slaps Rapi for 100k damage
Rapi should be dead at least 10 times over, but her 1 HP shield soaks all of that 100k damage

Rapi's still healthy with 1000 HP

[rare shell]

ok ok thanks so i do understand the concept, thanks

[sweet ocean]

obivously this doesn't help much against stages with rapid hits

[copper nexus]

It's the whole reason centi is so highly rated

Because she has the lowest cd shield

[unborn glacier]

they are consistent in makign you balder 🙂

[unborn glacier]

i beg to disagree, that being the whole reason XD

[copper nexus]

She wouldn't be nearly as good if shields worked differently

[unborn glacier]

that i agree, but id still use her

for me, her shield is just gravy

id use her without the shield mechanic/skill

[copper nexus]

She would just be an ssr anis without it

[unborn glacier]

with aoe

[wintry ravine]

anis has aoe xD

[copper nexus]

Anis has aoe

Lmao

[unborn glacier]

your talking about rocket area of effect aoe

im talking about map/screen-wide aoe

[copper nexus]

Centi is only 5 targets isn't she

Not whole map

[wintry ravine]

anis burst is aoe if I recall

[copper nexus]

Yes

[unborn glacier]

let me check nuber of targets

[copper nexus]

Effectively around the same nunber of targets

[unborn glacier]

@copper nexus your correct

i stand corrected
map wide/screen wide 5 target aoe then 🙂

[wintry ravine]

I like your tier list btw 👍

[copper nexus]

Ty

Actually I'm working on an update on it

[unborn glacier]

that reminds me

[copper nexus]

I wanted to get an understanding of burst gauge generation before I do the update

[unborn glacier]

i need update my research thread

[unborn glacier]

check my sheet

[copper nexus]

Because I don't think the other tier lists take burst gauge into account

[wintry ravine]

I prefer NGA's rankings just a little but yours is very good and has a lot more data.. and you know is in English which helps

[copper nexus]

Yes I saw

[unborn glacier]

they generally dont give it much emphasis.. so yeah

[copper nexus]

I made a copy of your sheet to try a more readable version

Hope you don't mind

[unborn glacier]

just give proper credit to me and others

[copper nexus]

Yeah ofc

[unborn glacier]

indigo will be sending the few remaining ssr test data tom.

[copper nexus]

Not posting it yet

[unborn glacier]

that i dont have

fyi, i shifted from single digit to a time range in my data collection

so some of the older entries that are single digit, will have some "inaccuracies"

but, generally speaking nikke's of the same weapon categories have the same range

minus the "special" ones

which ive typed stuff like above average, fast or very fast

average is 45 seconds - 60 seconds

[copper nexus]

This is what I’m doing rn to fix the variance issue

could do more than 4 tests but it is time consuming

[unborn glacier]

yeah, it is

i fell asleep doing it by my self 😂

[copper nexus]

that’s how I fell asleep last night

[wintry ravine]

I don't wanna go on but I do feel the way this data represent RL is very deceptive

[unborn glacier]

burst fill time column its average or how is it derived?

[copper nexus]

testing harran was wild though her burst gen is insane

[copper nexus]

yes just average

[unborn glacier]

yeah, she belongs to the special types

for centi and anis, i have working theory that they are using grenade launchers, so they dont fit regular RL charge speeds

[copper nexus]

interesting

[unborn glacier]

Maiden and harran which are the other 2, im not able to explain yet (i havent spent time thinkgin why to be fair)

privaty is above average.. my thoery being her skills last bullet doing a hit/damage

probably allows her to charge extra

[copper nexus]

good theory

I believe noah has a double hit as well

[unborn glacier]

i dont have her

so i cant study the behaviour

but she does have the same above average charge

[copper nexus]

I don’t either unfortunately, I heard this from a friend

[wintry ravine]

her visual fires off two shots at once anyways

not actually paid attention to see if it is two hits, guess I can check

[unborn glacier]

your finalyl gona help us on this?

[wintry ravine]

I did notice her weapon value is like half the usual damage % wise

well I will check if she fires two but I still have a big problem with rocket launchers in your data set 😛

[unborn glacier]

do the 2 fires

and explain the observation

[copper nexus]

What's the problem?

[unborn glacier]

on nikkepedia when i do normal attack

i only see on eshot though

but but

she is a "different" weapon

[wintry ravine]

well his test is in union range and just rng firing, there is no control for amount of targets hit and RL generate more charge per target hit

[copper nexus]

True

[unborn glacier]

not a regular rocket launcher

[copper nexus]

...I could change to interception D

[unborn glacier]

your gonna generate roughly the same numbers

given the same distance

you can test to confirm

[copper nexus]

It should be easier to control

[unborn glacier]

im only 98% sure

[copper nexus]

Probably yeah

[unborn glacier]

at the end of the day we know who generates faster given a weapon category

[copper nexus]

Do we actually know if close range generates more gauge or if that was just with shotguns?

[unborn glacier]

the thing with shot guns is at longer ranges

they can miss

which means no charge

[wintry ravine]

I think shotguns probably generate so much cause they hit so many times at close range

[copper nexus]

That is my theory

[unborn glacier]

no difference

i tested hitting one and 2-3 targets with shot gun

made no difference

range does have effect though

[copper nexus]

It is per bullet hit though

[wintry ravine]

I mean each pellet counts as a hit

[copper nexus]

Not per enemy hit

[unborn glacier]

i worked on the theory is its per hit

but i couldnt generate faster charge

i could be wrong

im human

but thats my testing result

no difference on aoe/multi-hit

that i can see

[wintry ravine]

well the game probably doesn't care if it's a different target just that you have lots of hits

[unborn glacier]

distance, i can see the bar movement easily

[wintry ravine]

more pellets miss with distance though 😛

[copper nexus]

We could take a video and count the number of hits each frame

[unborn glacier]

RL aoe and shotgun multi-hits at same ranges.. difference bar movement i didnt see

[copper nexus]

If it is only shotguns that get more gauge depending on range then the per pellet hit theory makes sense

[unborn glacier]

you see those 4 hits

burst bar barely budged

this was from my original testing video/data to generate the table

that grey you see on the bar?
its was already from 9 seconds of shooting

[wintry ravine]

yeah so noah does fire double shots, there are two instances of damage every time she fires

[copper nexus]

Ty for confirming

[unborn glacier]

cool, so that means the because she is a non standard RL, so she has different burst charge times

[copper nexus]

[wintry ravine]

little vid proof

[unborn glacier]

vid doesnt move

discord sometimes freeze the video

[wintry ravine]

huh

[copper nexus]

Working for me

[unborn glacier]

hates me

[copper nexus]

Lol rip

Restart

[unborn glacier]

vid not moving

[wintry ravine]

doesn't work me eithe in discord and I uploaded it

[copper nexus]

Get fucked lol

[unborn glacier]

restarted

nope still frozen, not moving

[wintry ravine]

another video

[unborn glacier]

same

[wintry ravine]

also frozen for me

smh

[copper nexus]

[wintry ravine]

screenshot

one hit core hit the other crit

[unborn glacier]

ahh 2 registerd hits

[wintry ravine]

well that explains why noah generates like double the burst and why her weapon damage is half

[unborn glacier]

well her per hit charge is a little lower

mathmaticalyl speaking

[willow pecan]

Imagine being 95% of the game's Nikke, defeated by Anis burst generation

Nyao just disproved it in better nikke chat

[unborn glacier]

since compared normal RL, she is about 50-75% is faster

[vocal vale]

link

[willow pecan]

Spent like 20 gems to check those hp values

[plush gazelle]

nyao just tested it. doesn’t seem legit

[willow pecan]

#1042929307414184028 message

[unborn glacier]

than you random kind sir

[wintry ravine]

maybe.. I don't really trust your RL data

[unborn glacier]

i dont care

[vocal vale]

wait where are the data

[unborn glacier]

the result is there

[wintry ravine]

I mean you see where I am coming from

[unborn glacier]

you can test it yourself

[vocal vale]

that wasnt HP but cover HP?

wait

[plush gazelle]

🤔

mayhaps….

[atomic gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/will-smith-men-in-black-gif-8186794

[plush gazelle]

[noble aurora]

👀

[whole fox]

Ay up

Wat happun

[atomic gyro]

u did

how dare u

[molten robin]

wait did 2 hours of chat just vanish? lol

was there an issue with the datamined info?

[willow pecan]

what datamined info?

no such thing here my good sir

[pearl parcel]

[whole fox]

Alex visiting the dungeon

[copper nexus]

There is no war in ba sing se

[still drift]

[atomic gyro]

What purge, there was no purge

[rare shell]

[noble aurora]

Yall hiding sth

[atomic gyro]

There will be no discussion of datamines in our purely christian and sinless server

For we do not wish to be bonked into hell by tencent

[rare shell]

what do I need to work on if I want the draft guide to be in the guidebook?

[noble aurora]

Found a DPS calculator (for burst rotation) on NGA if you guys need it so you guys do not have to do maths manually
Since it's from NGA it is in Chinese but I am sure you guys can do it 🤝

Thread link: https://ngabbs.com/read.php?tid=34381500
Spreadsheet link: https://docs.qq.com/document/DZkphdWR6d0JiYkhI

[copper nexus]

Hmm we could make our own

In english

[unborn glacier]

thread and spread sheet is same link?

[noble aurora]

OH lmao one sec

[unborn glacier]

also its appear to be a dps calc?

[noble aurora]

Fixed

It is

[unborn glacier]

ahh, the burst rotation game me a different meaning

[unborn glacier]

there was old topic about this item in the shop

it used to be 2000k
so it seems the item value scales

[atomic gyro]

Are you sure it's not a regular phone discount tactic?

Whenever things are discounted in mobile games, typically they're horribly markup to show a sense of value

[unborn glacier]

lol
the discount, im not sure, the original context was you can use credit to buy exp

cause of all the money we got from coop

[atomic gyro]

Ah

[unborn glacier]

also, the value i meant was that it gives more exp now 🙂

[atomic gyro]

Yeah I realised

I am slow

[copper nexus]

Yes I believe that item scales with your outpost

[unborn glacier]

it probably does

[noble aurora]

Found CP Penalty (CP difference into Stat penalty chart) on Chinese forum (seems not yet proven correct)
Thread link: https://www.gamer.cn/nikke/article/14873

[molten robin]

I havent seen it in like 2 weeks so who knows lmao

[noble aurora]

Translated sheet

[molten robin]

it matches rayel's

[sweet ocean]

rayel's coming from datamined sources so it's about as correct as it gets

[noble aurora]

datamine too powerful monkaW

[atomic gyro]

We just need a template for submitting mechanics to the unit megathread and we should be good to go?

For the lab?

[sweet ocean]

A template for solo submissions yes

Used for single threads and submissions in the megathreads

[whole fox]

Rayels made a graph for it too

[noble aurora]

👀

[unborn glacier]

matches rayel's which is from game code

[vocal vale]

Umm what happened also did u guys get any result

[willow pecan]

nothing happened

here, at least

[native heron]

anyone have the video to the level s grave digger intercept drag sg team?

[molten robin]

has anyone else noticed a decided increase in the difficulty of bugging I-S?

[still drift]

No, it's been the same for me.

Pre High Tech Toy and post.

[molten robin]

it was fine for me up to 2 days ago, but I cant bug phase 2 to save my life

I know it's rng since I've spent as much as 1.5 hours trying to bug p3 but this has seemed extreme lol

but maybe super bad rng

[unborn glacier]

arent you able to do GD with out bug now?

[molten robin]

maybe, but I havent invested time in trying

[unborn glacier]

fair enough

[molten robin]

it's a new learning curve vs doing bug

@unborn glacier disproved destroying boss parts awards anyone the damage

I got a part on a sim boss down to one tap, had everyone take cover, then took ss of damage report before and after destroying it:

you visibly see a huge chunk of the boss health drop, but helm only gained 20k damage

which is what her shot was for

[unborn glacier]

so the theory that last hit gets the bonus damage?

or did miss understand that?

[molten robin]

that was the theory yes

but it's not right

no one gets the damage

so that's one source of rng/bias we dont have to worry about when looking at damage screenshots, at least

[unborn glacier]

for the damage report yes

but that also sorta mean bosses magically lose hp when a part is lost then?

[molten robin]

yep

interception may work differently because it has a damage track, it might award damage to the track but not any nikke

[unborn glacier]

I hope so?
actually i could check my battle result later

if the numbers add up to boss defeat

it shouldnt add up

[molten robin]

if you're doing an interception where you destroy parts

[unborn glacier]

but if it does.. omg

[molten robin]

you normally only destroy weakpoints on I-S, which I did not test

though you can destroy a part

[unborn glacier]

there are missles also on interception

if my total adds up to boss defeat

[molten robin]

does damage to the missiles count toward the track?

[unborn glacier]

i dont know

actuall to be proper

does destroying missle generate damage score/result in the report

lol

testing which part of damage?

[molten robin]

just ignore me, this is 4am brain not editing cells correctly

[unborn glacier]

lol okay

[molten robin]

@unborn glacier a follow up to attack buff testing, damage up debuffs stack additively with each other

tested using novel + isabel

[unborn glacier]

so attack buffs and debuff stacks are additive

not a big deal for def debuff, since source of them arent that many.. at least for current team builds

once burst skills get fixed, the dminishing returns "might" matter

[molten robin]

though novel and isabel debuffs dont perfectly overlap

so only some efficiency lost from additive scaling

also on pierce: damage done to targets behind the first appear to take damage equal to the first, IF the damage report is to be trusted here

test method: I went into lost sector with lots of enemies, held alice back to start with 0 damage, used novel burst and then shot the target and 1 behind it, my damage report was equal to displayed pierce damage x2

even though only the first target had the dmg taken debuff

fairly niche application of this fact though, you'd need lower defense enemies in front of a higher defense enemy, or two large targets ( a twin boss stage?) where debuffs are stacked on the front one and you are piercing the one behind it too

@unborn glacier my last contribution of the night lol

me sleep now

[molten robin]

also it means the reverse is probably true, that pierce fails to take advantage of debuffs on the target behind the first

but I didnt test that so just speculation

ill think about arranging a crit dmg test tomorrow, but it's probably additive too

[unborn glacier]

reading

[unborn glacier]

thanks for the info

[unborn glacier]

most likely, given the current trend

would be mind blowing though if it was multiplicative

[molten robin]

yea

[unborn glacier]

damage result seem to added up to track damage

[finite trout]

{
      "id": 120,
      "lv": 120,
      "level_hp": 169000,
      "level_defence": 1780
    },
    {
      "id": 121,
      "lv": 121,
      "level_hp": 245600,
      "level_defence": 1860
    },
    {
      "id": 122,
      "lv": 122,
      "level_hp": 251700,
      "level_defence": 1880
    },
    {
      "id": 123,
      "lv": 123,
      "level_hp": 255200,
      "level_defence": 1910
    },
    {
      "id": 124,
      "lv": 124,
      "level_hp": 191100,
      "level_defence": 1920
    },
    {
      "id": 125,
      "lv": 125,
      "level_hp": 193700,
      "level_defence": 2000
    },

For some reason, cover HP spike at (synchro) level 121-123 then drop back down from level 124 onward. There are other spike at level 161-164 and probably others as well.

https://github.com/hibikidesu/nikke-data/blob/master/staticdata/CoverStatEnhanceTable.json

[eager ermine]

yeah it's fucking funny

one day my friend can tank GD drills and the next day(level) he couldn't

[whole fox]

Mom spaghetti code

Easiest way to make dem fix it?

Tell the Koreans and Japanese

Let dem explode shift up while we just keep faraming data

[rare shell]

this is fucked up

[unborn glacier]

any chance someone is running helm, could you check if your helm's healing time is really 10 seconds or has it dropped to 5 seconds

[sweet ocean]

you mean leech duration?

a sec

[unborn glacier]

yes

i saw some data in the files and i cant make sense of it, unless they hidden nerfed helms leech

[sweet ocean]

@unborn glacierjust checked

it's still 10s

[unborn glacier]

okay great

[sweet ocean]

guarantee it

[unborn glacier]

so this file is useless

i give up making sense of it 😂

[copper nexus]

Omg bruh....

Btw for unique burst gauge interactions, was it just:
Harran, noah, privaty?
Plus the aoe increase RL that have indirectly buffed gauge gen

[molten robin]

any unit with a "special reload", such as the shotguns and RLs and that reload partial clips, all have bonuses to burst gen

[copper nexus]

Other than those

Do other units generate burst from skill damage or just harran?

[sweet ocean]

huh

I have Isabel, gonna test after sleep. Will ping ya

[unborn glacier]

nope

there are more

soline and crow

soline, crow and noah, fall under double hit from normal attack category

[copper nexus]

Thanks

[unborn glacier]

neon, drake, sugar,harran, maiden, anis and centis fall under weapon doing more burst than "normal"

[copper nexus]

Isn’t maiden 45 per shot

Same as the other clip sg

[unborn glacier]

yes, the sgs i listed are higher generation that "regular" sg's

[copper nexus]

Ah yeah

[unborn glacier]

ludmilla is above ave burst speed also

but i dont have her, and the submitted data

[copper nexus]

Ludmilla does has above average confirmed

[unborn glacier]

didnt check/oberserve why it was faster to charge

[unborn glacier]

so she falls under above average for her weapon too then right?

[copper nexus]

Yes

[unborn glacier]

and not special mechanic

cool

brid supposedly slightly above average also

privaty is above average also.. but probably cause of skill is my guess, confirmed normal burst per bullet

okay brid has a skill 2 that does damage every 10 seconds

so that might be why she charges a little faster

[copper nexus]

So it is:
Double hit (noah, soline, crow)
Skill (harran, privaty, brid)
Range increase (laplace, vesti, belorta)
Abnormal/above average burst gen:
RL: anis, centi, laplace, rapunzel
SG: sugar, drake, pepper, maiden, neon
SR: harran, eunhwa
AR: scarlet, snow white, mihara, idoll sun
SMG: ludmilla
MG: none?

[unborn glacier]

Range increase (laplace, vesti, belorta)<-- what this mean?

[copper nexus]

they have increased aoe so more likely for multi hit

multi hit does increase burst gen right

[unborn glacier]

im in the opinion of no
the others say yes

the problem with RL aoe is that near targets generate extra burst

but to get good aoe, its easier hit near targets

if you RL faraways targets you get less burst and if you lucky to hit a crowd of monsters at the back, with the lower burst base... its hard to tell

let me do an anis demo/test

her base is high

[copper nexus]

[unborn glacier]

you able to watch stream?

[copper nexus]

Yes

[unborn glacier]

so i dont have to do screenshot galore

okay loading game

[unborn glacier]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cbMB9KQeAvL_PDT8t29ipRWB5UnfkKguVElad_DUB4s/edit#gid=725961096

[copper nexus]

Does anyone own soline?

[solid relic]

Yeah, what do you want to know?

[copper nexus]

Could you do a test to see how long it takes her to fill burst gauge solo?

Against closest enemy in the range please

[solid relic]

is the closest the one on the ground or the floating one?

[copper nexus]

The ground

[solid relic]

got it

@copper nexus
Soline
36s
37s
37s

had her in the center position targeting the closest one on the ground. This does mean that there were some shots that missed the core when the center ground one went to the far left at times.

[copper nexus]

Awesome, thanks

Do you happen to have noah or eunhwa also?

[atomic gyro]

Look at all these Nikkes I don't have

[solid relic]

Yeah, though I'll have to do the testing a little later.

[copper nexus]

Rip okay

[solid relic]

Just let me know what you want and I can get back to you in a few hours if nobody else has.

[copper nexus]

Thanks for the soline testing

[unborn glacier]

@copper nexus indigo did those test for me already and I had update my sheet

Maybe you missed the update?

[sweet ocean]

About exactly 1 week left until the fabled December bug fix update drops

[copper nexus]

Ah I see you have the average range for them

Though I would still like a smaller range for the average

[sweet ocean]

think you got the wrong channel?

oh you're talking about the table above?

[copper nexus]

Yeah

[unborn glacier]

Well, we can mathematically estimate, it now is since know the burst bar is 10k

[copper nexus]

Yeah true

[atomic gyro]

I heard theorycraft @vernal coral

[vernal coral]

Oh, I didn’t realize this channel was a thing! Yay~

Main things I am working on are manually played sniper centric teams and pushing really high power discrepancies, preferably with said aforementioned snipers

[sweet ocean]

We're actually working on a research/theorycrafting section

It should be public soontm if everything goes according to plan

[atomic gyro]

We still need that template though

[vernal coral]

Oh, that would be fun, please let me know about that as it progresses.

[unborn glacier]

define really high power discrepancy 🙂

[vernal coral]

Around 10k

5k to 10, in that range

[atomic gyro]

The stage penalty works through % based differences though

Not a flat value

[slow pulsar]

Commenting here so this sub thread shows on my tab

[vernal coral]

Yes, but this early in 10k is still a huge gap for the vast majority

But for me that equates to…reboots Nikke to check

Having about only 80% of the power rating

[sweet ocean]

That's deep, about 46-48% stats debuff

[unborn glacier]

very deep

[vernal coral]

Yeah, on both base defense and destroy runs. Unfortunately I didn't record anything thus far since I've been playing on phone away from PC most of the time and just doing screenshots

also trying to mess around in shooting range with different teams and try for odd combinations people usually wouldn't do

[unborn glacier]

sounds fun

[vernal coral]

I still think Exia is amazing and the only reason she isn't way higher evaluated than she is is her being a B1, and it's a bit weird to me that she's Supporter

so making teams with her for example

[unborn glacier]

she is suffering from the same problem as most burst 1

[vernal coral]

if only she were b2

[sweet ocean]

she outputs great damage (can even exceed Pepper) for a B1
it's just that you can't stack her up fast enough for it to matter

[vernal coral]

that's the thing though, I don't think that's true

[unborn glacier]

which is, why not use liter

[vernal coral]

you can stack her to full in maybe 15s?

[unborn glacier]

thats too late, for some stages and bosses

[vernal coral]

Faster than Novel though, and she's well-liked (though her debuff is bigger due to it being on burst and conditioned on stack)

[unborn glacier]

I dont like novel though

[vernal coral]

Neither do I - I think she actually takes too long to stack

[unborn glacier]

i dont think she sucks, but i do think she is a bit niche

[unborn glacier]

on bosses, stacking debuff is fine, for story mode, you generally want to kill the mobs faster over stacking debuffs

[vernal coral]

yeah, Exia doesn't have a problem in most stages just stacking and going through mobs, Novel would be notably worse there imo

Oh, to be clear, I assume manual play

[unborn glacier]

true if compared

but then, different burst slot

exia suffers from liter problem

[vernal coral]

Snipers are...not nearly as good on auto imo. Also fair

[unborn glacier]

yeah, snipers are better on auto generally speaking

[vernal coral]

No, I firmly argue the opposite for most of them

[unborn glacier]

im open to hearing your viewpoint

[molten robin]

novel is good because she's a b2

least competitive slot

[vernal coral]

I can't get anywhere near my manual scores on auto, because auto tries to full charge every shot.

There are quite a few snipers who deal 250% on a full charge or who activate buffs on last bullet. Rather than shooting one bullet at a time, depending on your speed, you can get between 3 and 5 rounds out per second if you don't charge the shots. You get both higher dps and coveragr in most cases playing manually and speed sniping compared to charging, with a couple of exceptions (Alice's burst, for example)

I also quickly swap to a second sniper while my primary is reloading

then swap back when that one is reloading

[unborn glacier]

okay your context is controlling nikke firing

not liter

for weapon control, your cycling seems good for raw shots/dps

that seems good

i dont like to manual stuff too much

[vernal coral]

was responding to this and I already mentioned earlier I always assume manual

[unborn glacier]

and my team builds are centered around burst building, so swiching to manually shoot sniper is usually not done nor adviced

[vernal coral]

but for example, I was testing with a triple sniper setup earlier

playing that full auto is.... not good

[unborn glacier]

i dont disagree for that setup

[vernal coral]

I basically always advise the opposite for snipers - generally a fairly good dps gain if you're good at manual compared to auto for almost everyone

[unborn glacier]

depends what your doing manually

[vernal coral]

Firing at least four rounds per second

[unborn glacier]

yes, for your sniper heavy team, sure

that make perfect sense

[vernal coral]

I just mean for any team with at least one sniper/launcher in it

launchers are a bit different though due to them having a lot of full charge effects

[unborn glacier]

my launcher is being manualed so i cant switch to sniper

[vernal coral]

Fair, I usually leave launcher on auto because I feel I get more efficiency out of doing the sniper instead, though sometimes I swap for burst building with rocket

[unborn glacier]

if your pushing at 50% penalties

that might apply

since your not suffering from overkill/flow damage with snipers

[vernal coral]

I'm curious as to how the burst cycling works too for your setup

[unborn glacier]

your manual control of the snipers -> increasing per shot dps used more efficiently

[unborn glacier]

nothing fancy

just make sure full burst is up 90-95% of the time

and my burst 3's are aoe

[vernal coral]

Are you using Volume+Liter?

[unborn glacier]

liter
Dolla
harran
privaty
centi

is the exact layout

since i do burst skills on auto

[vernal coral]

Ah, I see

[unborn glacier]

centi manual fire 99% of the time

since there are situational cases

that i actaully want her to full burst

but most of the time, i dont

[vernal coral]

I'm missing Dolla but I like her kit more than Volume's

[unborn glacier]

volume suffers from the same burst 1 slot problem

why use her, when there is liter

[vernal coral]

you don't have to burst with her to get the cooldown but yeah, if you burst Liter instead she loses the cdmg buffs. And it was something I had looked into because I originally planned for "I don't have Liter yet"

but yeah, Dolla fixes all of Volume's issues

[unborn glacier]

liter is huge attack buff
vs
volumes cdmg buff

cmdg scales poorly

dolla, is optional for me

if you rush burst bar build team, then dolla is worth it

if your build doesnt rush it

[vernal coral]

she's good to have for S intercept

[unborn glacier]

then maybe rupee or poli would be much much better

[unborn glacier]

yes, cause bosses generate extra burst bar

so even if your team isnt built to rush burst bar

the bonus burst generation, will still let you hit cd caps/issues

basically, in interception S
you want liters net cooldown to be something like 11 or 12 seconds

[unborn glacier]

@still drift any chance we can invite pocketchalk to join us in number chrunching/research?

[whole fox]

who?

i mean we can

but u mean the research dungeon or u mean the factory?

[still drift]

Digging or Research Lab?

@unborn glacier

[unborn glacier]

whichever she is interested in

a viewer of hers pinged me

that she might liek the stuff we ltaked about here

and i checked her stream

she loves numbers.. sexy!

[still drift]

Eh? I'd rather not play a game of telephone. We'll publish results as we make it public?

[unborn glacier]

and i saw here stream chatting with you

[still drift]

The reason why we have those channels is that the results are not ready for public eyes.

[unborn glacier]

thats the digging

which is fine

the regular reserach we do here in dungeon?

or she is more about reading the data

than generating it? i didnt watch her whole stream

so im not exactly sure if she likes doing what we do

[still drift]

Again, I'd rather her reach out directly to ask for what she'd like to see, rather than playing a game of telephone.

[sweet ocean]

really? We are not inviting streamers into this place
you're moving too fast m8

we're not even public yet kek

[unborn glacier]

my context was if she wants to help research

not telephone

not stream the stuff

[still drift]

You mentioned a viewer said she might like to see the data.

Not from her.

This is a game of telephone.

[unborn glacier]

i mentioned that viewer mentioned that she might be able to help us research

anyways

i mean its fine, if your not comfortable asking her

was just an idea

[still drift]

It also happens that I mention snippets of our findings already on her discord, if she'd really like to help, she would've mentioned it.
Until she contacts us directly, I'm dismissing this.

[unborn glacier]

okies

[sweet ocean]

haven't really deep delved into this but is crit working kinda normally atm?

my crits are still stronger with admi's buff

[unborn glacier]

clarification on normal?

[sweet ocean]

normal unbuffed crits are still stronger than normal hits
crit damage buffs are still making crits stronger

that kinda normal

all under deficit of course

[unborn glacier]

well yeah, in that context

yes

the only "special" thing i saw

is that core hits bonuses are listed differently in the code

and its not related to crit

[sweet ocean]

is it multiplicative by chance?

[unborn glacier]

i havent found the file/code for that yet.. to be fair i didnt try hard... hmm

[sweet ocean]

eh I don't even know what kinda fixes people are waiting for crit tbh

[molten robin]

my plan was to test crit dmg multi vs additive tonight

ill do that

[sweet ocean]

maybe once more peeps get overload gear opinions will change
a lot of crit chance in those

too bad that will take like a year or so lmao

[unborn glacier]

in the current damage formula, crit doent scale well

and then there is patch notes saying about some crit fixing

[molten robin]

wasnt that about crits doing less damage than non crits when under power?

maybe theyll just remove power scaling from crits

[sweet ocean]

well that's the thing, it hasn't been working like that for a while
my crits are fully functional under deficit

[molten robin]

yea? no change in ratio?

[sweet ocean]

don't member'. It was train and each of pepper's pellets are doing 1k normal, 1k2 crit
with admi's buff, 1k6 crit without Full burst

[molten robin]

1k2 crit is already less than normal though

that indicates power is scaling specifically crit damage down, and if you keep going further into deficit youll still see lower values than non-crits

[sweet ocean]

hmm, gonna take a look with chatterbox

[molten robin]

this is like 20% deficit or something

[sweet ocean]

oh it's still bungled

yep, confirmed on my end too

2.3k per pellet normal hits vs 2.4k crits
2.7k with admi's buff. 5% deficit

nasty

[molten robin]

so if we're getting debuffed 25%, the hit to damage is already higher than 25% because of how defense interacts with attack, but crit is also being made worse

so being 1 power under is prob a 30%+ average damage nerf

but those are the two things they specified fixing, the steep low deficit penalty and how ass crit scaling is under power

adding crit chance should NEVER be a dps loss lmao

[unborn glacier]

the penalty is a scaling tiered value

[whole fox]

Technically researchers dungeons is open to the public but no one acutally knows

[unborn glacier]

but yeah, the rest is correct

[whole fox]

The only 1 that isnt atm is the research factory

So if she wanna contributed to helpping out in research she can come here

[molten robin]

wdym by that correction?

[unborn glacier]

to be precise

you start at 20% stat penalty

if you are 1 point below recommended power

[whole fox]

But i would like to remind that we keep our work for public and give proper credit where it's due

Dont take our research stuff n steal it and claim full credit or make profit out of their/our hardwork
If that happen we will come after u revoke ur reseaecher access

[willow pecan]

If they start scaling the CP deficit stat nerf from 5% or so, I'd be happy.

[molten robin]

sure, I was just constructing an example

[willow pecan]

Maybe even 1%

[unborn glacier]

okay, no problem

i thought you meant it starts at 25% hehe

my bad

[molten robin]

doesnt hurt to use the right numbers to avoid confusion

I just wasnt giving it much thought lol

[unborn glacier]

yep yep

im in research mode

so a little numeber senstive now

[whole fox]

Well.. Sadly the dev loves decimal number

So flat number is umm.. Hard to determine cuz they always round down to the nearest whole number

[molten robin]

do we know that the power penalty for crit damage is simply, if the penalty is 20%, we're now at 130% crit damage instead of 150%?

if not ill construct a quick test

[unborn glacier]

the penalty is a stat penalty

[molten robin]

that does not answer the question

[unborn glacier]

not sure, what exactly your mean in relation to crit

[molten robin]

power penalty reduces crit damage beyond its reduction to attack

so what is the mechanism by which it is doing so?

[unborn glacier]

im sorry, im my brain istn able to understand/compile the question 😂

[unborn glacier]

huh?

[molten robin]

???

[unborn glacier]

power penalty should only reduce stats, not formula?

so for 20%

stat penalty

you lose 20% attack

[molten robin]

how else would we be seeing crits lower than non crits?

[unborn glacier]

damage formula is same

[molten robin]

that cant be achieved by reducing attack only

[unborn glacier]

crit damage is 50% more damage

[molten robin]

not when under power

that's been known for quite a while

[sweet ocean]

well chatterbox done with 46k
honestly if crit isn't bugged and burst lvls actually works I'd have blown through this under 2-3 tries

[unborn glacier]

not that im doubting you

im trying to make it make sense with the code

cause in the code its fixed value

not a "stat" value

[sweet ocean]

I think I'm missing like 20-30% damage without accounting to deficit

[unborn glacier]

let me read that table again

yeah the code just says stat

[molten robin]

idk what the code you're reading says, and this isn't necessarily intended behavior if they say they're gonna fix it (though it probably was), but we know that when under penalty, crits do less than 50% more damage

up to and past the point where it does less than non crits

which means the penalty is interacting specifically with crit, and not just attack

[unborn glacier]

{
"id": 40500,
"group_id": 40000,
"battle_power_ratio_min": -10,
"battle_power_ratio_max": -1,
"stat_increase": -2000,
"textcolor": "#FE1A00"
},

[molten robin]

to answer my own initial question, it is not as simple as crit damage being reduced by the penalty %

at 40.2% penalty, my crits are doing 89.65% of my non-crit damage

which is 60% lower, not 50

[unborn glacier]

let me math theory that a sec

[molten robin]

let me make sure my numbers are good

yep

no buffs or external factors influencing me

let me try adding a crit damage buff

[unborn glacier]

to clarify, with penalty your crits do less damage than your white hits?

[molten robin]

yea

[molten robin]

as seen here

that was at 40.2% penalty

[unborn glacier]

okay, i see the penalty

im trying to find battle damage formula now in the code

ill see if there some other impact from some where else (how the penlaty works)

[molten robin]

@unborn glacier sorry I've been mistating 40.2% as 50.2%

my penalty is 40.2%

that simplifies things

the penalty is taking 150%, and multiplying it by the penalty

1.5 * 0.6 = 0.9

so it's just inserted as a crit damage modifier, at a value of 1-penalty

[unborn glacier]

okay 40.2% make the math make more sense

[molten robin]

yea

sorry for the confusion

[unborn glacier]

no problem

[molten robin]

which is fucking awful lol

worse than just subtracting from the bonus

[unborn glacier]

its just weird that crit damage take the penalty

[molten robin]

that's what they said they plan to fix in regards to crit

[unborn glacier]

but its probably coded as a stat somewhere

[molten robin]

what form that fix will take we dont know

I cant believe it was entirely unintentional to insert it as a crit damage modifier

that's too specific

maybe it'll stay but be more gradual, or hopefully removed entirely

also does this mean crit damage multipliers in general are multi, or just a special interaction with power penalty?

now it really needs to be tested

[unborn glacier]

my assumption is it was coded as a stat some where

[molten robin]

yea very possible

@unborn glacier crit modifiers are additive, at least a single one is additive with the base crit bonus

[unborn glacier]

yep yep

so far we proven both attack and crit buff are adidtive

[molten robin]

it looks like (basecritmodifier * (1-penalty)) + (crit modifiers)

is the real formula in-game

[molten robin]

oh was crit buff already done?

[unborn glacier]

crit damage i think

i might have mixed it with the attack one

[molten robin]

you asked me to do crit last night, so unless it was done today

or it was mentioned at least

[unborn glacier]

just yours 🙂

[molten robin]

ok

[molten robin]

so...what does hp potency do? was it a bonus to healing?

[whole fox]

not sure but seems like healing

but i aint gonna lie

[sweet ocean]

@half grovethoughts? I distinctly remember that HP potency on Folkwang is somehow life steal

[whole fox]

with alter rupee giving faster burst gage, taunt and self heal, and a burst 1

i feel like 2-1-2 comp is coming back with liter alter ruppe hahhaa

[sweet ocean]

wait we have her kit?

[molten robin]

alter rupee says RE ENTER BURST STAGE 1, which sure sounds to me like you can immediately use a second burst 1

no?

[whole fox]

see datamine

can be changed but seem like a leak

#datamine

[molten robin]

that would mean you can use her burst before liter's every rotation

[whole fox]

yea seems like 2-1-2 is possible but still u will get cucke by 2

[molten robin]

wdym cucked by 2?

[whole fox]

burst 2

still on cooldown

[molten robin]

why would it be on cd? unless you're running a long cd burst 2 I guess

but you wouldnt run that as your sole burst 2 in the first place

[sweet ocean]

those are some nice kits

neve being a true shotgun archetype, streetsweeper

[whole fox]

anyways

mordernia confirm

[half grove]

hp potency means, increase all sources of healing restored to the said character

[whole fox]

[molten robin]

figured

[sweet ocean]

lmao just read again, she's SR

legit. At least she's going to be a great SR

[whole fox]

yup

a decent shotgun SR

that is burst 2

OH WAIT SHE IS BURST 3?!

now we have a problem

contesting with Maiden Drake Isabel and Sugar

[unborn glacier]

60 second cooldown

[whole fox]

Yea.. Dam

[unborn glacier]

not sure if worth it or not

if her burst charge rate is good

then yeah ill replace centi with her

[sweet ocean]

Burst 3 MG Attacker huh

[sweet ocean]

oh, neve's debuting right in Christmas
Thought she'd be later

[plush gazelle]

r u sure that you haven’t just gotten it wrong?

[unborn glacier]

obsolete comment

😂

[plush gazelle]

obsolete*

ftfy

[unborn glacier]

hehe

[plush gazelle]

was too lazy to read the whole thing

[unborn glacier]

the conclusion from that was, i matched the wrong girl

[plush gazelle]

i’m assuming that the issue had been resolved if u saying that

[unborn glacier]

the 10 second was actually laplace

[plush gazelle]

yeah that’s what i thought

[unborn glacier]

and she was 10 second burst 3 duration before patch
but dealth 1/2 the damage

[plush gazelle]

yeah i think the prydwen guy mentioned

actually this is better tho fr

since a lot of powerful buffs expire in 5 seconds anyways, having it be concentrated is defo better

[unborn glacier]

depends on stage

like on grave digger, id rather have it last longer

[plush gazelle]

fair enough but laplace is pretty much a boss specialist anyways

[unborn glacier]

yep yep

[willow pecan]

xrupee liter dolla scarlet privaty should be infinite ammo rotation for scarlet, likely no issues with burst cd. 100% no issues after third round of burst cause you're getting -12s cd from liter dolla, while full burst lasts 10s.

xrupee liter admi scarlet maxwell is similar, but idk if burst cd is an issue

reliant on xrupee not getting nerfed into oblivion

[sweet ocean]

Power deficit changes

Low power punishment change:
0% - 15.7%: from 20%/42.9% to 5%/42.84%
15.7%+: no change

so a 10% deficit clear is a lot more bearable now
combined with working burst lvls + crit we should be seeing more clutch clears

[wintry ravine]

mfw I'm overpower on 13-24 and still can't clear it

[sweet ocean]

I don't even know how to cancel Modernia's stun

[wintry ravine]

I don't think you can.. unless that's why i suck so much at the fight?

[copper nexus]

Take cover, kill her core

[sweet ocean]

lol so it's a dps check then

[wintry ravine]

so when she flies up about to lazer you can cancel?

[copper nexus]

The first one is very hard to cancel but subsequent ones you can try to time full burst for

But you can use cover for first one without getting stunned

[wintry ravine]

gotta try this

I destroy the core and it still lazer me

my god finally killed it

I was attacking all wrong

I thought the timing you meant was kill the core when it flew up to lazer

you gotta kill the core after it's done teleporting really fast. It can't use lazer attack with no core

[unborn glacier]

grats

[wintry ravine]

another laplace mvp fight cause she can output more dps in a short window than anyone else

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't she like bis for mordernia + chatterbox and solid for GD (I'd rather shotgun team there) and train lol. Niche unit indeed

[unborn glacier]

my opinion is different as she performs differently for me

so your mileage may vary 🙂

[wintry ravine]

true our tests did suggest she'll perform different based on fps. I hope the patch in the future fixes that

[unborn glacier]

yep yep, i need to kill modernia also

[wintry ravine]

I might try and figure out how much these each effect dps for a few different weapon types

kinda tricky to do when the cubes aren't equal level

I guess I can just time how long a character fires vs how long they reload and then see how much 1 extra ammo evry 10 effects that

[unborn glacier]

sounds fun

[wintry ravine]

actually almost done was less complicated than I figured 😛

[unborn glacier]

nice

[slow pulsar]

What would happen if something like eunhwa last shot - def 15% got another +1 ammo then last shot again using cube? -30% def or the debuff refresh?

[wintry ravine]

well the reload reduction time is better for laplace... though they are both very close

[wintry ravine]

that's an interesting question

over 90 seconds constant firing regardless of the cube laplace fires the same amount of shots

I think since reducing the down time is preferable and reload is very slightly ahead earlier it's a little better...

just had a thought actually, I wonder if this cubes adds ammo during laplace burst

🤔

seems like it does not that it makes any particular difference lol

I guess in theory it'll give you some cases of double last hit bonus with laplace.. how many rounds would you have to go before that occurred.. let me see

huh it never lines up with laplace last bullet

this cube is maybe actually better on the characters with massive clips

basically it just scales better for characters with less reload downtime relative to their firing uptime

a person more motivated and smarter than I could work out the ratio but I am not that person

[unborn glacier]

i dont have the 1st cube

so cant relate nor test

[wintry ravine]

It's more a maths problem

I did in the end just count shot with laplace but you can math it all out

the cube should add 10% firing uptime

[unborn glacier]

its should

[wintry ravine]

whereas the other reload cube reduces reload downtime

[unborn glacier]

cause of +1 per 10 shots

but here is the extra fun stuff

the fire 10 rounds

is per "ammo" expended for per shots/hits done?

SG would be broken if that happened.. and gasp i hope the devs arent that dumb

but then there are the nikkes with double hit

[wintry ravine]

on laplace it doesn't matter with hits, it just adds one on to the ammo counter exactly when you'd expect it to

[unborn glacier]

great, thats not broken/op then

related topic

[wintry ravine]

on laplace actually there is counter synergy since it takes you longer to get the same amount of last hits so its def worse than reload speed for her

[unborn glacier]

for AR and MG who have lots of ammo

the more shots they have, it will most likely allow them to benefit from liter's ammo capacity buff resulting in reset

so in theory, they get to shoot forever

ohh ohh

also for MG its bigger impact

cause MG's take time to build up their ROF so having to reload less and fire longer will definetly impact their dps by a bigger %

[wintry ravine]

yeah MG is actually where this cube seems to shine

[unborn glacier]

*the dps loss mg's take for every reload is bigger than other weapon types

[wintry ravine]

funny it's the opposite of what I intuitively thought

[unborn glacier]

i main'd guiltone for a lot of stages before i got my harran

so that extra ammo made me remember the horrors of reloading with a MG

[vernal coral]

On top of that, for most snipers and launchers iirc, N102 + Yuni will give them a 10 round clip. Some other combos are possible, but that was one I used for a long time because it was effectively unconditional

so that would be interesting and a good way to test the scenario described with last round effects

so I think clip extension to 10 rounds should be up for testing too

[whole fox]

@still drift can we keep an archive of the old stat pen since they gonna nerf it?

So at least we can refer back to it if we need another time

[still drift]

Yes, I'll be making a new sheet to do a comparison when the update hits.

[pearl parcel]

I will have to change a lot of things in the weekend if I have time

and make public the research category

[atomic gyro]

Exciting 😬

[copper nexus]

Testing request: how many seconds does it take for alice to charge her shot/how many seconds for alice to empty her mag on auto?

[molten robin]

~11.2s

for total empty

[copper nexus]

Did you test after boss spawn camera pan?

[molten robin]

I timed with a stopwatch, not sure if performance causes a disconnect

[molten robin]

start stopwatch after reload finishes, stop when the charge of last shot finishes

I waited for the first clip to pass before starting as spawning into a level seems to make starting the stopwatch difficult, there's a smidge amount of time where I think they're already charging the first shot before I see them load in and actually firing

[copper nexus]

[sweet ocean]

hmm, it's better to record, upload and then recheck with something like http://www.watchframebyframe.com/

[copper nexus]

Could you also test alice burst fill time for me?

My calc doesn’t match with the previous testing results with 11.2 sec

[molten robin]

if it's necessary to get frame perfect counting we can do that ofc, but the margin of human error appears to be a small range, at least for my testing

it's within 0.1s

[sweet ocean]

[molten robin]

realistically, I bet this changes based on performance

emulator vs native device, or even difference in pc specs

I did it on emulator on a very middling pc

[copper nexus]

Could you do a burst fill test

[molten robin]

sure

let me afk while she fills it lmao

47.38s first test

ill do it several times and see how much error I have

[copper nexus]

wait what

47m?

[molten robin]

47m?

[copper nexus]

lmao

[molten robin]

hmm

whew im getting a large range

what factors are supposed to affect the burst generation of each shot?

this is an @unborn glacier question

in his notes I see he says further = more burst

is that it?

[copper nexus]

This is my theories so far

[molten robin]

how quickly alice generates is definitely changing based on who the ai targets in the range

[copper nexus]

I did not find that snipers are affected by distance

[copper nexus]

Probably due to pierce

Hitting structures and other enemies

[molten robin]

hmmm, I can try more controlled tests, but I dont think just pierce explains this range

[copper nexus]

Rip maybe my calc is correct

[molten robin]

I have a ~35s - 1m 8s range so far

[copper nexus]

My calc removes AoE and only gives ST energy

35s

[molten robin]

yea no clue what happened there lol

it was insanely fast

an outlier

[copper nexus]

Might have hit boss through pierce

Boss is double energy

[molten robin]

instead of letting ai auto target, let me instead count shots for full bar and manually target

[molten robin]

yea that could be it

[copper nexus]

The number we want is 77 seconds btw lol for no pierce hits

[molten robin]

full manual (and thus some error) and purely st, no cover, and the closest possible enemy, 110s

32-33 shots

[copper nexus]

Is your manual slower rof than the auto?

[molten robin]

hard to say, I am starting new shots more quickly, but I am prob wasting fractions of seconds hitting full charge and not firing frame perfect

how exactly it compares to auto shrug

[copper nexus]

[molten robin]

I can confirm, as you attest, distance was not a factor

manually hitting a flying target a good bit further away, it was 34 shots to full burst

which I said the closest target was 32-33 but it couldve been 34 as I got distracted trying to stop my stopwatch precisely

ill retest that

[copper nexus]

Ok the shot count is helpful actually

[molten robin]

yea fuck time tbh

im gonna ditch the watch and focus on shots lol

time per shot can be calced separately

[copper nexus]

So with 0 pierce shots, alice should need 36 shots to full burst

[molten robin]

I just did 34, I made sure not to pierce or hit any cover

[copper nexus]

34 shots was 110s?

[molten robin]

that test was max 34 yes

on boss, 15 shots with one cover hit

ill try again but avoid cover

yea 17 no cover

[molten robin]

it's definitely 34, not 36

let me try to do pierce tests

[copper nexus]

The 36 comes from datamine number though so it should be correct

[molten robin]

yea well lots of things should be correct lol

[copper nexus]

Lol true

[molten robin]

I'm confident it's 34 though

there's no way I pierced or hit cover on any of these tests

[copper nexus]

There are really small targets in the middle that count as structures

[molten robin]

let me stick my face in my screen and squint then

[copper nexus]

You could try killing the structures first since it should give the same energy as enemy hit

If my theory is correct

[molten robin]

oh those dumb things wow

hmm

I mightve hit those on my boss test, but not in my flying test

ok I'm seeing 36 now counting structures

idk what I could be hitting in my flying test but ill recheck

36 there too

there's just little stuff I wasnt seeing before

never realized just how much debris was here...

[copper nexus]

36/6*11.2+reload time = 79.2

Which is close to my 77

Yeah there is tons of random small debris

Which explains why all of the RL tests have been wack

[molten robin]

auto is a little slow, at least for me my character attempts to start a reload between shots

[copper nexus]

Ahh I see

I will just go with the 11.2 seconds number

Ty for the help

[molten robin]

example:

she has like 2 ammo left

but I get that little ammo bar popup between shots

it fills a tiny fraction then she starts a new shot

again, cant say if that's related to device performance

[copper nexus]

Ah I see

[molten robin]

new test, ill test if burst generation when piercing is based on the first target hit, as damage is

cant quite get a controlled test like I want, but it's very clear it counts each target separately

as when I pierce a boss behind a target, it reduces my count more than expected

[copper nexus]

Interesting thought

Anyone wanna proofread my article
https://nikke.gg/burst-gauge-generation/

[molten robin]

I'd edit the "practically impossible" for shotguns hitting all 10 pellets, as that's a campaign-biased statement without campaign bias being stated

we routinely see all 10 hit on bosses like I-S

lapice = laplace

[unborn glacier]

other characters with skills different from harran?

or it covered by next line?

[copper nexus]

From the data you gave me they didn’t seem to be affected by skills

[copper nexus]

Lol ty

[unborn glacier]

sure

[copper nexus]

Fixed the typo and shotgun part

[unborn glacier]

at most, maybe clarification that the burst per hit is base value

and gets modified

but thats just for people with poor reading inference skills 😂

[copper nexus]

Like this?

[unborn glacier]

"Hit rate dependent weapons will generate more energy against close range enemies"
doesnt apply to rockets though?
rockest do more charge close -> mid-ish range?

and arent hit dependent

[unborn glacier]

yes

[copper nexus]

I’m not conviced that rockets get more energy according to range tbh

[unborn glacier]

make it "clearer"

[molten robin]

is it even true for shotguns?

[copper nexus]

I believe it is due to hits missing at far range

[molten robin]

those are two different things though

if you were hitting a large target further way, it'll be the same, no?

[copper nexus]

That’s what I think

[unborn glacier]

we can confirm later (im a little busy at work)

but i remember hitting far target generates les

a hit is hit

so no miss in effect

[unborn glacier]

shotguns, is harder to test

cause the random pellets and very very low base

[molten robin]

yea it's hard to design a good test

but doable

[unborn glacier]

in theory you do a video record

[copper nexus]

We can record video of shotgun in close vs far and count the number of hits

[unborn glacier]

and and watch the whole video in slow mo

[molten robin]

yea

[unborn glacier]

and count the pellet hits

[molten robin]

that was my thought

[copper nexus]

The problem is it’s hard to see structure hits

[unborn glacier]

with slow mo

the white spots will "help"

you just lose the number as a guidance

[copper nexus]

Ah do the spots show on structures

That shouldn’t be too hard then

[molten robin]

alternative: one test on I-S, one test on train

train is further right?

[unborn glacier]

i believe all the bullets generate a white spot , just missies are very very small (just the bullet flying)

[copper nexus]

They both move

[unborn glacier]

train moves less vs grave digger

[copper nexus]

I don’t think misses show

[molten robin]

movement doesnt matter, right? we just care about distance if we're recording and counting shots

[unborn glacier]

they dont show as hit, i might explained it poorly

[molten robin]

that way there's no debris

missing pellets isnt a big deal

[unborn glacier]

there is some animation of the bullet missing/traveling (if i remember right)

and since it SG

you know number of pellets going out

so some inference can be done.. i think

but yeah

bosses can do

no building issue

[copper nexus]

All the bullets are the same size

[copper nexus]

True

[unborn glacier]

just minor need adjust burst

[copper nexus]

Yes train is out of shotgun range

[unborn glacier]

for boss bonus

[unborn glacier]

train, when you doing the close up attacks for parts, is "within" range?

[copper nexus]

Mfw I accidentally exit train fight and lose my daily attempt LOL