The current state of the frostbite debuff is pretty weak in comparison to other forms of damaging debuffs, it's slow and adds very minimal amounts of damage per turn late game while excelling early. I'm thinking a change that makes all stacks be consumed at once to deal a big hit of active damage instead of small amounts over multiple hits would allow for a lot smoother scaling for the debuff and have it do a lot more similar to poison and burn. My idea is similar to like a "Psuedo Mark", e.g. "Next time this enemy is hit, deal (x) magic damage for each stack of Frostbite. Removes all stacks on being hit."
#Frostbite Debuff Change?
hot garnet
jade pagoda
alternatively what about a stacking multiplier. Next hit deals X times damage and removes 1 frostbite. Maybe cap the stacks at something like 5 or whatever so it doesn't get too crazy.
would synergize really well with heavy hitting abilities, and still gives a good reason to stack it up.
hot garnet
Yeah! That would be cool too, but I figured since we already have multipliers (hex, shatter) this would have been a better alternative
urban inlet
i definitely agree that frostbite feels like the weakest of the debuffs. strange since its quite easy to stack the bonus damage pretty high. could this be due to how rare it is? the only abilities which apply it are from weaver (1 per turn only per thread, or 3) obelisk (epic 1, and ascended 3), and the cone binding. what if it changed to function similar to bleed, where stacks were instead never consumed? this creates interesting choices to go for high frostbite stacks and lots of multi hits.
jade pagoda
i definitely agree that frostbite feels like the weakest of the debuffs. strange...
Yes, I think if it was modified to not lose stacks on hit it could work out better, although it would need to be balanced carefully I think. If stacks were permanent and it did a flat bonus magic damage per stack on hit it could be worth it.
Part of the problem though is that I feel like the bonus damage would need to be relatively high to make it a more desirable option than burn or poison since those are going to automatically tick damage every turn without you needing to do anything and there are lots of ways to apply those debuffs over large areas.
high rune
Part of the problem though is that I feel like the bonus damage would need to be...
maybe, but being a stacking debuff that allows you to kill before the enemy attacks instead of after would carve it's own niche in the debuff market, and make it still work well with multiple small hits, which is how it works now.
opaque sage
I think the reason Frostbite feels so weak, is because it's the only debuff/buff that can have multiple stacks but doesn't have a stacking effect. You can only stack around 10-15 frostbite in a single turn on multiple enemies with the right build but unless you're playing mutliplayer you have no way to consume all the stacks to deal that damage, where as burn, poison, bleed, and spiked all deal more damage the more stacks they have and can stack easier. Even the obelisk build that synergises off of huge stacks of frostbite is much weaker than the magma miner build that stacks off of burn. I mean, every binding on the Magma Miner has got augments that deal burn and some ascensions that do it too. But Obelisk only has 1 augment and 1 ascension that deals frostbite, on different bindings. And Demolish, on the Magma Miner multiplies damage by a base of 40 per burn, whereas Avalanche on the Obelisk multiplies damage by a base of 50 for every 3 Frostbite, it's not really comparable when Burn is both easier to stack and does more damage.
opaque sage
Obviously Frostbite couldn't stack in the same way that other debuffs stack, since each stack of the other debuffs only trigger once per enemy per turn, but some form of stacking would be better than nothing. I like the idea of a damage multiplier, for each stack of frostbite, deal a certain % more damage, and after testing if the % damage gets too big, either lower the % or cap out the max frostbite stacks.
sly sparrow
I think frost and shock are likely going to interact with future characters a bit more. I could be wrong but just a feeling.
pearl bramble
Frostbite really shines in 2 player, where it is reasonable to get a large number of stacks AND pop them all in the same turn, and in those situations its very strong.
I think one of the main reasons it feels weak is that there isnt much synergy anywhere. At least for poison and burn you have abilities that let you manipulate/spread stacks, frostbite doesnt have that. I can understand not wanting all debuff builds to have the same "get as many stacks as possible" playstyle - maybe allow frostbite damage to crit if the triggering binding crits at the cost of lowering the base damage? That gives frostbite some synergy outside of just magic power
solid dragon
Yes, I think if it was modified to not lose stacks on hit it could work out bett...
I think a good idea might be making stacks decay slowly like burn, but each stack of frostbite increases the amount of magic damage on hit. That way it works similar to burn or poison where you want a ton of stacks to maximize the damage. In it's current iteration It's difficult to balance having too many stacks or too few stacks to proc all of them.
jade pagoda
another problem with Frostbite is the unfortunate interaction with the VERY confusing on kill mechanics. Currently there are a number of augments that trigger when you defeat enemies but what's really confusing is apparently they only trigger if that bindings damage was the thing that actually got the kill and doesn't include other sources of damage that occur at the same time like Frostbite. So you have a situation currently where say an enemy has 80 health and a stack of Frostbite. You line up an attack and it shows that it will kill the enemy, so you attack them expecting the on kill effect to trigger. What actually happens is the ability deals 70 damage leaving the enemy at 10 HP, then Frostbite triggers and does say 40 more damage killing them. Because Frostbite killed the enemy, and not technically the binding, even though the binding triggered the Frostbite, the on kill augment does not trigger. Personally I think that entire system should be overhauled. If an enemy is hit by a binding, and dies from ANY source of damage in the same turn, any on kill effects for the binding should trigger.
hot garnet
What if we made frostbite more defensive based? Where it reduces their damage by like 5% per stack
And had a synergizer debuff called "Permafrost" which keeps the stacks from decreasing for a certain number of hits
(I use "Synergizer debuff" reffering to something like Hemmorhage or Toxic, which specializes in enhancing an already applied debuff)
jade pagoda
could work, although I feel like 5% is too little considering that except for bosses most enemies are dead within a few rounds at most. Maybe 10% with a cap on stacks at say 7? That would be a 70% damage debuff at max stacks, which doesn't sound too unreasonable.
another similar idea would be that they lose 1 stack a round and each round have a 50% chance to be "frozen" and unable to move or attack that round.
might be tricky balancing that on bosses though
hot garnet
Well I said 5% just to work with Permafrost as an idea since you could stack it way more
urban inlet
i really wish it would work like Gaze. creates some interesting build ideas where one needs to balance stack count and number of triggers per turn.
another idea could be something like a reverse dot. it puts a debuff on enemies for X damage per stack, and if their HP falls below that threshold, the enemies are killed instantly. this works as a potential counter to shields, and could even have a shatter mechanic which spreads stacks on a defeated enemy.
pearl bramble
another idea could be something like a reverse dot. it puts a debuff on enemies ...
I really like this idea. It also makes it much more clear when enemies will be dying from frostbite rather than the initial hit (I have notices this from time to time with the Mug upgrade to Pilfer, where frostbite will get the killing blow and then I dont get bonus dollars)
pliant kindle
I like the ideas here. I have another idea, which might be more ambitious to impliment, but it would also be something that demo-testers from before launch might appreciate.
What if, instead of frost being a damage-driven stacker, if it was an enemy-attack-range-reducer, and the amount reduced could be driven by the stack amount, which is then reduced in half per end-of-turn.
The way this could interact could be as follows:
Direct-Attacks (arrows) ► Shrinks the range of those direct-attacks, which means characters could out-run the attack-arrow like you could during the demo.
AOEs (circles) ► Shrinks the AOEs.
Unavoidable Attacks (pulsing/global) ►Transforms the unavoidable attack into a large AOE.
In my opinion, this would create a more thematic approach to frost, since frost should be something that slows enemies down, and said slowness could be translated into how sluggish their attacks become while under frost status. This would also allow new takes on support-roles to open up to control incoming damage incurred. And while I disagree with most players' opinions on the Unavoidable Attacks being too troublesome, it would, at the very least, give players struggling with unvoidable damage a new counter besides healing/shielding.
jade pagoda
for the direct attacks even if you couldn't "out-run" them, if it just made them stack closer to you that would be good enough. Part of the problem right now is that they form a circle around you that's just far enough out that they're out of range of most AoEs that are centered on you as well as being far enough apart that you'll rarely if ever manage to hit more than 2 of them at a time with targeted AoEs. Forcing them in closer to you would also force them closer together allowing you to hit more of them at once with attacks.
pliant kindle
I think you might be confusing my definition of the Direct-Attacks. What you're describing are what I define as the AOE-type attacks (circles). I'll edit my post a little to emphasize that.
jade pagoda
no, I knew exactly what you meant
enemies that direct attack tend to stack in circles around the player, but if they were forced to stand closer because of the debuff they'd be easier to hit
pliant kindle
I thought about the idea of changing their movement behavior too (which is also thematic), but I decided in my theorycrafting that this wouldn't truly make Frost that much of a keeper, since ultimately chain-lightning ends up being the great neutralizer for clustering enemies, already.
Here, my idea is to cripple their attack behaviors as a defensive measure.
jade pagoda
I mean, it's kind of the same thing... if they're going to attack you they need to be in range to do so, so they're going to be closer... either that or they don't move any closer and they all just miss by default, but that seems kind of dumb.
honestly though, the enemy positioning needs to be fixed in some way, it's incredibly frustrating how perfectly they space themselves out to avoid attacks
pliant kindle
Definitely wouldn't want to mess with their movement if this idea modifies their attack ranges, because then it would make frost too easy to win by just standing still and pelting them with range.
jade pagoda
I'm not sure how you're expecting to square changing their attack ranges without also touching their movement. If they can only hit within X pixels, but they normally stack themselves at a radius of 1.5X pixels, then either they must move closer to attack the player, or else the player can just stand in the center of all of them and watch as all their attacks miss.
pliant kindle
The idea is for players getting targetted by them to move away from them if they want to avoid damage.
jade pagoda
so you'd put a limit on their attack range only when they have frostbite on them? I'm pretty sure you'd still need to modify the movement logic to take that into account.
pliant kindle
That's the idea. Frostbite stacks cripple their attack ranges/sizes. You wouldn't need to affect movement. The range reduction, alone, would make frost suddenly viable.
jade pagoda
if the enemies weren't aware of the frostbite debuff they then would potentially move into locations they couldn't actually hit the player from
pliant kindle
I don't think you're understanding my idea. You can move to avoid damage entirely.
jade pagoda
so would the idea be that when they have the debuff they don't direct attack anymore but instead use a line style AoE attack?
pliant kindle
I don't know how I can be more clear. The idea is to shorten their ranges, meaning if it's an arrow, for example, you can simply be out of the arrow and avoid the hit (like they were in the demo)
jade pagoda
I never played the demo. Right now the arrow follows you around as you move. If you put a maximum length on the arrow you could move further away than it could reach, but the enemy would need to be aware of that maximum length otherwise on its turn when it moves it could position itself further away than its attack would reach so it would miss by default. You'd need to alter the logic so it always tried to position itself close enough to hit the player.
all that said, if you weren't actually going to reduce the attack range to shorter than the enemies normally position themselves I don't see that as really gaining you much of anything at all, it would still be a pretty useless debuff.
pliant kindle
I don't see how the ability to completely negate their incoming damage is useless at all.
jade pagoda
because the arenas are already small, and when the ink starts closing in they get even smaller, plus you'd be forced into spending will to move as well. Right now you can just stack up shield or evasion and negate attacks that way without needing to spend will on movement. It would mean that debuffs that can kill enemies faster before they can actually attack would still be far superior to frostbite.
pliant kindle
In solo? Sure. In 4p, different story altogether
jade pagoda
yeah, I never play anything but solo
pliant kindle
Especially when player-aggro can be modified to alter who their ranging.
Even in solo though, there are still potential values in being able to reduce ranges. Anyway, my idea was more theorcrafting to put frost in a different position than just another damage-stacker. It would require a lot of overhauling, but IMO it would make frost more unique
jade pagoda
I mean if that's all you want it to do just make it like evasion but applied to enemies. On their turn direct attacks miss and they lose a stack of frostbite.
pliant kindle
Too strong and cuts down incentive to reposition, IMO
jade pagoda
there's already too much incentive to reposition. You've got AoEs to avoid on top of needing to move constantly just to stand a chance of hitting more than 1 enemy at a time.