Variation B Stages

[spice horizon]

With all the unused features listed by ipod in #mvl-development-and-modding and #mvl-discussion i dont think we should try cramming them into existing maps

Creating new, second variation stages that use the same themes as the originals allows you to reuse the quality nsmb assets whilst focusing development time on the new features

I already have ideas of what the menu UI for selecting the new maps would look like

[main ore]

pair this with alt music

[queen tendon]

Pair this with Foxyyy music

[main ore]

[spice horizon]

Separate the Game Settings and Room Settings Menus from the Map selection and add “Variant B”

Or whatever we decide to call these

The player can press L or R at the top to switch variants

[queen tendon]

Make it a toggle

[spice horizon]

Game Settings and Room Settings are paired together as well

Remove ‘Map Selection’ and fix symmetry

Game Settings and Room settings can be combined into the one button, Map Selection replaces the other

@charred sequoia

@fervent ledge

[main ore]

the mindnomad ping was a wee bit unne

une

fuck

it wasnt needed

[minor lodge]

yee a button to switch to alternate maps

[spice horizon]

I dont know, us three were talking about it and i wanted to see mindnomads thoughts too

[main ore]

hm, fair enough

[pulsar lily]

does mvlo need like double its amount of maps just cause we're too attached to the current maps?

[spice horizon]

You act like they’re bad

The worst two are from nintendo

[pulsar lily]

you can't just pump out good maps easily unless they're all gonna be generic maps made in a day each
which would make most of this just more content, not good quality content though

because it is bad
why exactly do we need to make use of EVERY nsmb gimmick

not every gimmick works for mvlo you know..

[spice horizon]

Nobody said to use them all?

Nobody said to make them fast either

[pulsar lily]

twelve maps is gonna take a long time bandanalite.
they're either gonna be okay like most mvlo maps or if they put more effort then it'll take months to get this out JUST because we can't let old maps be improved

[spice horizon]

Im okay with the wait

We have community submissions, mindnomad already likes the idea of making two of them

Reused tile assets speed up process

[pulsar lily]

but what's the point?
just so the content gets doubled to satisfy both audiences in vanilla instead of just letting add-ons be the option if you wanna still play old maps while still improving the maps to actually make use of their missed potential?

[north sierra]

BOOOO

Get off the stage

[pulsar lily]

mvlo has 12 soon going to be 13 maps
you're gonna double that to 24 maybe 25 with this 😭

genuinely too many for a game like this

[north sierra]

Haven't we already discussed this idea

Like multiple times a new maps is created

[queen tendon]

What's wrong with having more maps

[spice horizon]

too much content apparently

[minor lodge]

stupid reason

[pulsar lily]

too much maps
and there's just not a need for 24 maps
legitimately why just double the content and not just focus on improving the content right now wink wink (blatantly foreshadowing my redesigns)

[queen tendon]

KKT:

[spice horizon]

lets hear it from the big boss
if he even responds at all

i feel like hes gonna talk about this with everyone but me

[minor lodge]

i mean didnt ipod discuss a similar thing? the current maps lacking a handful amount of unique gimmicks in the og levels in ds

or something

[spice horizon]

Thats what we just discussed in #mvl-discussion

[minor lodge]

quicksand is allat i remember

[spice horizon]

But his concern wasnt about “too many maps”

His concern was reuse of content and implementation

[minor lodge]

alternate maps

[pulsar lily]

okay @charred sequoia
mvlo has 12 maps and soon to be 13, do you it to be doubled so there's 25 or 24 maps in mvlo with inconsistent level design philosophies of (basic nothing map) and (gimmicky map)
instead of just hmm... making the current maps better and just letting the old custom maps be add-ons instead of forcing them to stay 😃

[minor lodge]

and alternate themes

[spice horizon]

“inconsistent level design philosophies” assumes these maps will be poorly designed

[pulsar lily]

???

no it's just that adding gimmicks involves actually designing the map with them in mind
which inherently changes the design philosophy

mvlo's maps right now focus more on just being basic (I think?)

[spice horizon]

So you’d rather ipod wouldnt use these gimmicks at all?

[pulsar lily]

no????
there's a better way to go about it wink wink

[pulsar lily]

also this is another point I agree with
I don't like how the idea of reusing content is used here

[charred sequoia]

I mean your designs are completely different than the original game's

[pulsar lily]

by original game you mean nsmbds or mvlo?..

[charred sequoia]

MvLO

I want nsmbds's stages to remain untouched anyway because nostalgia

[pulsar lily]

oh okay yeah
but it's just not very fun to force myself to sort of reference the original map I'm redesigning somewhere in the level
besides if people wanna play the original maps add-ons can be a wonderful alternative

[pulsar lily]

dw wasn't planning on ever redesigning those
I like those maps

[charred sequoia]

That's why we have to decide

Do we want variants or just completely different levels with the same theme

[north sierra]

The BIG POD has spoken

[spice horizon]

Completely different levels with the same theme is what i meant by variants

[charred sequoia]

Because even the mvlo maps are 3/4 years old by now...

[north sierra]

To the i-p-o-d

[charred sequoia]

Even though they're inferior id still like people to have the option

[minor lodge]

i'd say new different levels using the same theme or some sort of sub themes being used

[pulsar lily]

can we just like, replace the current maps with mine?
yet again I don't want the reason mvlo has 24 maps or just denies having more interesting themes to be because nobody bothered doing what I did 3 years earlier or something

both options you presented just don't really seem good

[spice horizon]

i do not want to replace the current maps with yours

[pulsar lily]

add-ons:

[spice horizon]

wdym addons 😭

[charred sequoia]

Not coming for a while.

Even then I don't think the majority of people will be using addons tbh

[pulsar lily]

there's like a huge chance someone recreates the old maps if mine get in

[spice horizon]

yeah but replacing existing maps is probably the last thing the community wants

[pulsar lily]

and that'll be a good way of sort of having both!

[charred sequoia]

.

[spice horizon]

and shoving them aside into addons (which have issues currently) is a bad idea

[pulsar lily]

yeah because most of us have played this game for a long while

[queen tendon]

Both

[pulsar lily]

and yet again since nobody came earlier to redesign the maps significantly, we've all grown used to these maps

[spice horizon]

I want small tweaks to current stages sure

[minor lodge]

cos theyre good enough thats why no one has redesigned them 🙂

[queen tendon]

Jungle, Sky, Desert should have more special treatment, they've been in MvLO for a decade-half a decade

[pulsar lily]

I'd say they're fine enough yes

[minor lodge]

wdym a decade what

[pulsar lily]

but are they that interesting outside of just how fun mvlo's core gameplay is? no not really

[queen tendon]

Just have both

Let us eat two cakes

[spice horizon]

Let them have cake

[queen tendon]

MvLO's first ver was in like 2017

[pulsar lily]

i don't get why we HAVE to sacrifice just improving the maps significantly and just walking around the issue

[minor lodge]

ipod is this true

[minor lodge]

isnt it 2021

[spice horizon]

Also gotta consider overloading ipod’s workload is a real thing
Hes still 1 guy and has been unmotivated for the project at the time. Dont know if thats changed within the past two weeks

[queen tendon]

Your version of improving is replacing

[queen tendon]

Why does ipod have to implement it

We, ourselves can implement it

[spice horizon]

With mods? Sure

[queen tendon]

All ipod has to do is approve and merge into next ver

[spice horizon]

If you want

[queen tendon]

Not with mods

[pulsar lily]

technically yeah
my old sky redesign I've basically completely replaced with my most recent one

[spice horizon]

Oh cool

[minor lodge]

add*ns?

[queen tendon]

Addons are lame

[pulsar lily]

you can't just add gimmicks to the current maps willy nilly and it just works

[minor lodge]

and thas why we're discussing abt making new leves reusing the same theme

or sub themes or whatever

[pulsar lily]

yeah because you guys are attached to these old maps

[queen tendon]

I'm 99% sure that if a stage (even if it's "approved") is an addon only 0.00001% will actually use it. Unless there's an ingame addon browser I bet only a small user portion will use addons

[pulsar lily]

I get not wanting to just outright get rid of them
I used to think that too

[cloud mauve]

honestly why not just keep the old maps as addons :3

ezpz :3

[queen tendon]

Small player base will use it, and everyone else will be like "Where did the old versions GO"

[pulsar lily]

but dude are we really gonna just let the maps stay as is because of personal attachment- THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I'VE BEEN TELLING THEM VIN OMG 😭

[spice horizon]

Im not attached, i think these maps have value past nostalgia

[pulsar lily]

which is?...

[queen tendon]

Have both versions, but make yours take place during a sunset or something

[cloud mauve]

a smaller player base will use less interesting maps :'3
thats fine :3
i get if you like them but im sure much more people enjoy a much more wacky experience :3

[queen tendon]

I just like non-gimmicky maps

[spice horizon]

They’re not bad maps
They are genuinely fun to play except for 3

[queen tendon]

What I like about them is I'm fighting players not the map itself

[pulsar lily]

I never said they were bad lite.

[spice horizon]

But you implied their quality was low enough to replace

[pulsar lily]

they're fine, a fine map WILL be fun to play on

[minor lodge]

oh hell no 😭

[cloud mauve]

(i mean for some they kinda are but like-)

[cloud mauve]

why???

[spice horizon]

I mean if im out voted and the boss agrees go for it
I’ve said my piece on this one i think

[north sierra]

Yea

Never ever make a suggestion again

[queen tendon]

The have design issues that should be tweaked but not outright replaced. It's clear that Sky wasn't designed for 2.0's physics and should have some changes so there's less camping and less one hit kills

[north sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/never-ever-post-a-video-again-gif-18373997312741235136

Nah im jk

[pulsar lily]

no????
it's just that my huge improvements basically replace them since they're essentially complete overhauls past sky
it's about me wanting the maps to have better quality and just be more interesting, not because the maps were so bad I HAD to step in and get them out

[cloud mauve]

again its not even about that its just that sky is bland!!!
and like, liking bland things is fine :3
its just that for majority of the playerbase they shouldnt need to be gatekept for playing on a lot of bland maps because a few veterans dont wanna use addons :'3

[queen tendon]

Sky is bland? I just don't feel that. And that may be because of that hyper speed thing you can do with the edges of the mushroom platforms

[cloud mauve]

hyperspeed is the only thing sky has going for it which isnt even exclusive to it :'3

[pulsar lily]

what's unique about it that you can't find in another map?
don't even say mushroom platforms since they're literally just semi-solids + slopes

[cloud mauve]

genuinely sky has 0 things that set it apart other than its level layout which is just an objective fact, it actually has 0 new elements to it :'3

that is by definition bland :'3

and again, bland is fine!

i like bland things with only small variations to them genuinely :3

[queen tendon]

Well only two stages really have it, Volcano you can't do it.

[cloud mauve]

but i like also having the option for insane gimmicky stages :'3
(exaggeration ofc :3)

[cloud mauve]

what?

in volcano its super powerful :'3

[queen tendon]

Volcano has too many blocks in the way

[cloud mauve]

i guess i just hard disagree,,,

[minor lodge]

not really

[queen tendon]

Not to mention evil design

[cloud mauve]

if you dont use hyperspeed on volcano youre severely nerfed :'3

you actually need to because its so long :'3

[queen tendon]

I like to play in the "cave of life"

[cloud mauve]

isnt this just more incentive to replace the vanilla maps? ;3

and to relegate them to addons?

[charred sequoia]

@pulsar lily you said a mod you played or made (don't remember) made you change your mind, which was it?

[pulsar lily]

?

also I never made a mod

[pulsar lily]

I changed my mind about mvlo's maps because of vin's map basically opening my eyes about the potential mvlo has

add-ons I just changed my mind after thinking about it deeper

[charred sequoia]

"Vins map" which

[pulsar lily]

mountain

[spice horizon]

Want to know if you’re on board with replacement of maps and shoving old ones into addons

[pulsar lily]

also vin is steamedhams

just so you know

[cloud mauve]

right i feel like everyone gets confused,,,

i should probably have it in brackets next to my name,,,

[spice horizon]

vincells and vin
I almost got that confused once

but i dont think i’ve ever seen vincells talk here

[cloud mauve]

dont forget vinnnnnnnny :3

[pulsar lily]

like without it I wouldn't have been inspired to truly go unique with each mvlo redesign

[pulsar lily]

(the vertical one that's being added)

iPod you still there?

[minor lodge]

answer dis question while ur at it

[north sierra]

I think from now on for every bad suggestion

We should have a trial

And if they are decided guilty

[minor lodge]

mvlo free trial edition

[cloud mauve]

salem witch or judicial?

[north sierra]

Why not both

[minor lodge]

jail

[north sierra]

Ipod the judge

YES throw them in jail

Eat the keys

[charred sequoia]

I'm not sold either way

[north sierra]

Then do a dance in front of them to let them know what they did

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-squarepants-squidward-dance-weird-party-gif-5727031771636155488

[charred sequoia]

Like @pulsar lily I don't really see the harm in having the originals as legacy maps

Maybe in their own category

[pulsar lily]

I don't see the harm in having them as add-ons

[cloud mauve]

hmmm,,,
what reasons for and against are ya thinkin?

[charred sequoia]

Because it's impossible for every new map to be subjectively better

[pulsar lily]

-# well, not impossible..

[sturdy scroll]

def impossible zomble

[charred sequoia]

I said subjectively lol

[minor lodge]

hi pxguin

[pulsar lily]

oh right yeah

sorry I was thinking objectively

[north sierra]

I think that every map should just be 1 map

Im still waiting for sewers map

[cloud mauve]

i guess the point is that development shouldnt aiming for "better" or "more balanced" but rather for "more interesting",,,
i feel like thats still subjective but definitely a lot easier to quantify :3

[north sierra]

And darklands

Yknow what would be cool to have in mvl

Tea parties

Like mario and Luigi dont fight

And just sit down and talk abt their day

[minor lodge]

Farlands

[pulsar lily]

like genuinely
I feel like I have hope for add-ons to actually be popular
and this would also allow just shelving the old maps for add-ons to be a viable option

[north sierra]

Landlands map soon

"Luigi, pass the sugar plz a brother"

"No mario ur on a diet remember"

"Luigi I told u im not diabetic"

[charred sequoia]

Guys stop memeing pls

[north sierra]

Sorry

But fr

Every map should just have 1 map to represent that level/world

Even if it doesn't include the most iconic gimmicks

Its still nice tk have representation

[pulsar lily]

I feel like that's obvious enough

[minor lodge]

i do prefer official mvlo maps than addon maps

[pulsar lily]

add-ons haven't even had maps yet cleeaf 😭

[charred sequoia]

The problem is that there isn't plans for an addon browser in game or anything

[cloud mauve]

the reason thats such a hard thing do decide on doing though is just that adding the same things is confusing and too same-y :3

[charred sequoia]

I mean I suppose that would be possible...

But it's even more work

[spice horizon]

Reduces compatibility and accessibility a ton

[cloud mauve]

so it only exists for the downloaded version?

[minor lodge]

so ur telling me the underground desert and mountain arent actually addons?

[north sierra]

Every map will be different as it is now, but just the new maps are just more gimmicks then then the old one but with only juat one map

[pulsar lily]

mmm.. game banana?
smbr also doesn't have anything like that either yet that game's modding scene is relatively popular in there

[spice horizon]

He doesnt know yet

[pulsar lily]

underground desert DIED twenty years ago

[charred sequoia]

Is smbr a multiplayer game?

[minor lodge]

still an addon smh

[pulsar lily]

nope

[charred sequoia]

That's probably why it's easier then

[cloud mauve]

true multiplayer games are much different,,,

[minor lodge]

an addon forum post in the server?

[north sierra]

Orrr wait

[pulsar lily]

but still remember that you can download an add-on from a lobby using it in game

[north sierra]

What if we had a addon section for the server

[charred sequoia]

Only approved addons but yea they auto download

[pulsar lily]

and that certainly would spread an add-on quick
the sight of add-ons ingame would also make some who are interested look for add-ons as well

[cloud mauve]

-# honestly if someones playing on browser im assuming they dont much care for a less interesting variation of a map ill be perfectly honest so idk how much of an issue this is,,,

[pulsar lily]

so therefore relegating old maps to add-ons would be good
not only would the game be more consistent in more aspects than if it crammed the old maps in
it also means anybody who wants to use those old maps can do that as well using an add-on

[spice horizon]

Will replacements include every single map?

[pulsar lily]

and those who don't wanna worry that the lobby they're in chooses old ghost house even though they wanted the new one will not have to worry about that if it's just relegated to an add-on

[pulsar lily]

yes excluding the nsmbds originals
they will NOT BE ADD-ONS they will stay in mvlo

though I'm having someone else do bonus

[cloud mauve]

woah woaw woah-

hold on there :'3

hoooold on there :'3

[spice horizon]

i like your designs at least but jeez

[minor lodge]

bonus is already peak

[cloud mauve]

relegating nsmb originals to addons tho?
mmmh,,,

[pulsar lily]

what did I say something wrong?
I'm not gonna replace the nsmbds maps

[pulsar lily]

NO

too far

[spice horizon]

Ohh i read that as including

[cloud mauve]

,,,me too :'3

[spice horizon]

lmao

[cloud mauve]

^v^'

[pulsar lily]

genuinely would be insanely evil if I did that

[cloud mauve]

yeah thats fine :3

[spice horizon]

I think i’ll only miss the old jungle and desert maps

[pulsar lily]

like come on poor grassland doesn't deserve to be an add-on exclusive 🥹

[cloud mauve]

miss?

why?

theyre still there,,,

[spice horizon]

These stages not being center stage means they arent played as often

[pulsar lily]

you can still play em as add-ons lite

[spice horizon]

i know i know

[pulsar lily]

make a lobby with the add-on then

[spice horizon]

Its the same phenomenon with the new tomodachi, it feels like something ends once the new one comes out

Its a personal thing lol

[cloud mauve]

you can always just host a lobby with it enabled!!!
i dont think subjecting newcomers to an experience of "get ice and throw people into pits over and over" is enough to justify it not staying as vanilla :'3

[spice horizon]

^

its just a me issue dont worry lmao

[cloud mauve]

dw i get that :3

[pulsar lily]

alright so are we all in agreement that the current custom maps should be add-ons then?

[spice horizon]

anyways, redesigns will be great for the mbfc competitive scene, they cant go one mvl discussion without map complaints

[spice horizon]

Not all but i wont be unhappy if it happens

[pulsar lily]

yippee!!!

@cloud mauve high five

[spice horizon]

whatever the decision is i’ll try and support the movement

[cloud mauve]

well,,,

3 is a very small amount of people :'3

[spice horizon]

Yeah submit this under a new suggestion

[cloud mauve]

there are reasons to not do it from people we havent heard from yet,,,

[minor lodge]

nnnnnno :)

[spice horizon]

Bring the idea to the community

[pulsar lily]

oh right..

[spice horizon]

gain a psuedo-consensus

[pulsar lily]

ehh I think we should wait till my suggestion comes out to do that

gotta let people know what they're getting into first before asking them that

[spice horizon]

Like making the maps first?

[pulsar lily]

the redesigns are already almost done except bonus I have no idea about that one and jungle isn't complete yet

I'm just waiting a bit for some stuff

[spice horizon]

-# leak them to me bobble

[charred sequoia]

im definitely not in agreement lol

[spice horizon]

good to know

[cloud mauve]

yeah i feel like thats pretty important :'3

[spice horizon]

Is that a hard no or a “not sure yet”

[pulsar lily]

at this point I'm not sure what could convince you before the game suggestion

[spice horizon]

You two have very different directions for what you want the game to be

This is far from the first long discussion over a single feature

[pulsar lily]

I want it to improve

and to do more

[spice horizon]

We all do, thats not what i meant lol

https://tenor.com/view/plants-vs-zombies-pvz-pea-gif-14938656493184412278

[charred sequoia]

@pulsar lily my guess is that youre thinking of a light base game and a ton of addons?

[pulsar lily]

???

[charred sequoia]

like for "the future"

You two have very different directions for what you want the game to be

[pulsar lily]

light base game?

where'd you get that idea from?

I thought that was the direction you were going in 😭

[charred sequoia]

well you said stripping out all of the old maps bc bloat no?

[spice horizon]

I think he’d want a strong foundation that leaves a lot of room for change and modding but still provides a quality base game

Pretty broad statement though

[pulsar lily]

well yeah
makes the game more consistent, and also means I won't have to worry about playing old ghost house, it's not the kind of extra stuff I think the game needs.. wink wink my modes would be so awesome
also it'd be annoying to specify which version of a custom map you would want to play on

[pulsar lily]

also I'm not opposed to more maps btw

i am planning on making another two maps eventually this year using the sewer and the bowsers final castle themes

[spice horizon]

You’re opposed to more maps that arent up to a standard, you made that clear dw

[pulsar lily]

yeah it'd just be weird and would single out how different mine are to the current ones

[spice horizon]

just know you likely have the entire mbfc against you, many are nostalgists 😭

[pulsar lily]

btw iPod just so you know I genuinely don't mean any offense to the map creators
making mvl maps is difficult, it took me months to get it right

[spice horizon]

no, no you have a point
endless stream of complaints of balancing from players who are at least half decent

Nintendo did a worse job than our community did anyways

[pulsar lily]

ehh half true

[spice horizon]

Pipes and fort, ice is mixed for many

[pulsar lily]

but I think it's good to take risks

[spice horizon]

Agreed

I’d love to give personal feedback on some of your maps but if you wanna just receive it from everyone once you’re ready to share it with the rest of the community thats fine

[pulsar lily]

fortress and pipes are fine but I kinda like them?
not best for competitive play though

[pulsar lily]

I'm the new vindollar

[cloud mauve]

pipes and fort are like, bad maps, but im honestly happy they exist,,,

theyre different!

and weird :3

and unique!

and provide an insanely different experience :3

[spice horizon]

I have good sibling memories on pipes playing around with mini at the top layer

Vin should i go back to the splatoon bandana pfp or the magalor one

[cloud mauve]

splatoon!!!

[pulsar lily]

you already know what he's gonna say
splatoon 🥹

[spice horizon]

😭

gotta get me a new screenshot next time i play

[cloud mauve]

wear the crusty sean outfit and show that part too :3

[spice horizon]

nooo

[minor lodge]

I mean the maps weren’t made for 3+ players

[spice horizon]

Which makes ice worse and pipes worse

[pulsar lily]

mainly fortress

no it makes ice better actually

[minor lodge]

Ice is not bad at all

[pulsar lily]

it's perfect for 10 players

[pulsar lily]

finally after twenty mvlo years cleeaf and I agree on something

[spice horizon]

It means nintendo did a worse job designing a 1v1 map

[pulsar lily]

mmm it's not that bad

[minor lodge]

Liar

Ghost house is bad remember

[pulsar lily]

which?

[minor lodge]

current one

[pulsar lily]

yeah ghost house sucks
okay a little bit exaggerated but I just don't like it

I hate that map

[spice horizon]

It tastes like blue cheese

[pulsar lily]

real mvlo players know my hatred for