[Updated] NEW Mountains Map Design!!!

[young flume]

even then just look in the source

[sand crypt]

he’s only made the structure I think
not any gimmicks yet

[worn topaz]

arent donuts implemented?

[young flume]

from what i recall it hasn’t been anything but correct me if i’m wrong

[bronze lava]

yes, except the rotating platform

[young flume]

donuts were for like addons testing

pretty sure

[sand crypt]

still has the vine and rotating platform left to go then ,,

[young flume]

are there any actual opinions on my suggestion for trampoline mushrooms

instead of that platform

[worn topaz]

i didnt really ever get a summary on what was being talked about so i wouldnt know : ' 3

[glacial mirage]

i like the idea of trampoline mushrooms
as long as height is controllable like most games

[young flume]

we’re just talking about the map again idk what else there is to know

given apollos design

and people liking that

[worn topaz]

what platform is the trampoline mushroom replacing? :'3

[young flume]

the spinning one along with a bit of the bricks and semis

[glacial mirage]

Yes the spinner was a big issue for me

[worn topaz]

so,,, removing the rickshaw or the spin blocks,,,?

[young flume]

i also think the spinner should be open to all instead of just mega as bouncin on them while spinner flying basically makes you launch just as high again

[young flume]

no the bricks and hard blocks not the spinners

but the rickshaw yes

[worn topaz]

ill be honest this map wasnt made without the rickshaw in mind,,,

the reason the layout works is because its constantly moving :'3

so removing it would just need a complete and total rehaul,,,

and,,, idk why it was a problem in the first place-

[young flume]

i think the trampoline shrooms could preserve a bit of that

hell even the rising and falling or pink stretchy ones could work too

[young flume]

i’m suggesting it as a better maneuvering thing and better help for mega

[glacial mirage]

#1392680501579350026 message

[young flume]

and it’s more fun than waiting on a platform

on top of everyone being put on the same playing field while still being vertical

would help mini too honestly

[worn topaz]

i remember doing tests where instead of the rickshaw, it was stationary platforms :3
the main problem was it that was hard to move down, the rickshaw constantly moving makes going down easy because the gaps are dynamic :3
in fact,,, i did a playtest recently in the bare-bones version the map is in, just with the rickshaw replaced with normal platforns,,, so dissatisfying to go down since theres no dynamic gaps :3
the biggest issue with vertical levels is that you need a really easy way to get down or it feels horrible :'3

bouncy mushrooms would make it more dissatesfying, since going down and jumping on one would be quite annoying,,,

[violet fern]

vin can you hop on splatoon

please

I need one more match

[violet fern]

sorry to interrupt

[worn topaz]

i see that :'3

[violet fern]

LOL

[worn topaz]

ill come back later then!

byby for now :3

[violet fern]

ready up fricker

ty

[young flume]

as long as the shrooms are in view and placed in the right spots i think it could work

coin trails could help

or background elements

[glacial mirage]

i think it’d be interesting canceling momentum with gp on mushroom trampolines and potentially jumping higher when you gp them

dont know how well they’d interact with stun though

[young flume]

you go the same height when groundpounding them as if you held jump

it’s not like the 3d games

you don’t get the height either if you aren’t holding jump

[glacial mirage]

what about stun, as it is now when you bounce on something all stun is canceled

that’d need to be fixed, right?

[young flume]

in mmim when you land on it you stay stunned a bit but then it gets cancelled

it’s not instant tho

it’s like a good half a second to full second buffer

if you really wanna spice things up too then have propeller mushes in blocks

they also work well with the trampolines and again put everyone on the same playing field

[glacial mirage]

they do, thats true

[worn topaz]

oki hai im back :3

[violet fern]

wait vin are you gonna play with luna

[worn topaz]

yes if they respond :'3

now get out yiu used me for yiur games and didnt help with mine :'3

[violet fern]

yeah im #abusive

[worn topaz]

: ' 3

anyways yeah the one thing we found annoying about my map through every single version was anything that stops your ability to move downwards is annoying :'3

doesnt matter how far down you can see either, switching momentum in the air is abysmally slow in mvlo :"3

the way my current map works means that holding a direction 99% of the time means youll just fall through the stage, bouncy mushrooms actively take that away :'3

[worn topaz]

also, thats not a problem :3

if you look at the last video in my playtest footage youll see its quite easy to get up without waiting :3

if the bricks map was submitted today assuming it wasnt already in vanilla, would it be critisised that its "boring to wait for a rising platform"?

while yes, you could wait, its not even close to necessary most of the time :3 :3

[young flume]

yeah but that map is smaller and has other ways of traversing

[worn topaz]

so,,,?

yeah theres other ways of traversing, even more reasons why you dont need to wait for the platforms :'3

[bronze lava]

pipes are a thing

[young flume]

yeah buts it’s unironically having to hike a mountain without them

[worn topaz]

,,,yes!

thats,,,

[young flume]

for worse

[worn topaz]

kinda what i was going for!

its like hiking a mountain!

[young flume]

good in theory but bad pacing in reality

[worn topaz]

okay :'3

is like-

do you have any proof of that? :'3

[glacial mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/mia-yim-gamer-whfmia-gif-19208794

that maybe

[worn topaz]

right now, because you havent played it, quite literally everything you are saying is theory :'3

[bronze lava]

-# its not even the case

[worn topaz]

right now, because we have playtesters who have tried it we are saying what reality is rn :'3

[glacial mirage]

worried abt it a little :,)

[young flume]

and yet if i say the same about my thing im shit on

the double standard

i’d be glad to try it on 2.0 but until then idk

[worn topaz]

what?

rose has in fact played my map :'3

like, again, you said what you think works, and i can say ive tried that and it doesnt work, and you said "well in practice my idea works and yours doesnt" : ' 3

[young flume]

i’m saying me talking about me and my playtesting on my thing

as you are yours

[worn topaz]

where is that message taken from,,,?

i feel like i need the full context-

[bronze lava]

i was talking about you randomly using your own maps as example (maps that nobody knows that they exist)
what are you on about? this is not even related

[young flume]

me bring up the usage of a mechanic in a map of mine from my experience as a point to why trampoline mushrooms would be beneficial to this map

how is that not related

[worn topaz]

what im trying to say is that they dont, and we kinda have experience in testing that they dont, at least, for this map :3

every maps layout is different! and some things that can work dont!

so for this map,,, bouncy mushrooms dont work since while they provide the ability to go up slightly faster, they fall short in letting you go down, this map needs both :3

and as well, the rickshaw can be scaled quite fast with the use of walljumping on the brick block platforms, as well as just jumping :3
the rickshaw can also be easily traversed down :3

[glacial mirage]

If the rickshaw is faster than it is in nsmb ds i’d be happy

[humble magnet]

Trampoline mushroom is fine I think

[scarlet cloak]

hi kazik

[worn topaz]

i mean that can probably be arranged, although that would need to be heavily tested, could be annoying to get on,,, but ofc we'd need to see :3

[worn topaz]

ah, try and read down a bit as to why it,,, isnt ^v^'

[humble magnet]

Hi zomble I didn't notice I got pinged here for a reason and not just news or something

[glacial mirage]

doesnt need to be wildly fast dw

[humble magnet]

I skimmed for a bit to get the general gist of the topic and I don't see why it isn't

If anything, this is something I myself have thought of before miibumm ever added it to his mod

Like this for example, why does it matter that we are his friends? Does that negate our ability to playtest or is it because you think we are going to be biased towards everything he makes?

[worn topaz]

anyways yeah the one thing we found annoying about my map through every single version was anything that stops your ability to move downwards is annoying :'3
doesnt matter how far down you can see either, switching momentum in the air is abysmally slow in mvlo :"3
the way my current map works means that holding a direction 99% of the time means youll just fall through the stage, bouncy mushrooms actively take that away :'3
^v^'

[obsidian spruce]

i already said this in dms but i'll say it here too
can't say for sure since i just ended up using buffed mini whenever we were on that map 🥴

[worn topaz]

bouncy mushrooms make lateral movement better upwards, but horrible downwards, in a map where you need to go down to get stars,,,

thats not very fun, we found :'3

[humble magnet]

Could be an issue with your map's design then

[worn topaz]

??? :'3

ist not, thats why we added a rickshaw :'3

because its literally not a problem with the rickshaw :'3

[young flume]

gonna come back to this later cus i’m getting car sick tee hee

[worn topaz]

uff,,,

[humble magnet]

Can I see the map you are talking about steamed?

[glacial mirage]

this one

[worn topaz]

oop wait-

yeah that :3

miibumm is trying to suggest replacing the rickshaw with bouncy mushrooms,,, already having experience with something similar being in one of the iterations of my map, im trying to say why we know its a problem and why its not a good idea :'3

[humble magnet]

-# Oh my god this looks miserable to play on 😭
Yeah the issue with that map upon first glance is that it's too vertical and there's not enough floor for the players to fight on, making it easy to get pushed down from and then have to struggle to get back up. The reason why miibumm's map works is because it's about as tall as the ice map, with the trampoline mushrooms usually residing on the middle or bottom halves of the map

[worn topaz]

,,,you could,,, take a look at the playtest footage below :'3

first message below the one bandana linked to :'3

[humble magnet]

Also it's not like the full map has them either. For example, there's a section with a moving platform where you need to ride them to get one of the star spawns

[worn topaz]

you could,,, also read that we have had many many playtesters constantly play this map and get feedback, which have all said that it does not, in fact, feel miserable to play on :"3

[worn topaz]

ah, ye, you can easily get those by jump jumping straight up from any of those platforms when theyre closest to those stars, never really feels like a hasstle to get em :3

as well, there is an improved version ive been working on which lowers them even futher than how low they already are, despite that theyre pretty easy to grab in this first version regardless :3

[obsidian spruce]

yknow im not involved as much in this server anymore but like, you always say it's not bad and im willing to hear you out but i wouldn't your point be better proven if we also played it
me personally ive been wanting to play it since this is probably the best vertical level im gonna find due to the amount of thought it has behind it

[worn topaz]

ofc!!!

i had mentioned in one of the starting messages i would love to play with everyone who wants to try and play it with me! ^v^

through parsec :3

[obsidian spruce]

uh

[humble magnet]

I'm trying to find the gameplay of it but I don't see it

[obsidian spruce]

couldn't that have very bad lag?

also yeah there's no gameplay

[worn topaz]

???

[humble magnet]

Also yeah why parsec?

[obsidian spruce]

i didn't see it under the message

[worn topaz]

(gameplay :'3)

[humble magnet]

There we go!

[obsidian spruce]

ok so bandanalite linked a different message

[worn topaz]

nsmb is a DS game, can only play it on melonds,,,
since these mechanics havent been implemented in mvlo, its the best we have :3

[obsidian spruce]

that's why we didn't see it

[worn topaz]

oh :'3

thought he linked to the top message,,, ^v^'

#1392680501579350026 message

[obsidian spruce]

you didn't even check? 🥴

[worn topaz]

read this if you have the time!!!

[obsidian spruce]

well whatever i'll watch it now

[worn topaz]

ah- uhm,,,
yeah :'3

sorry :'3

[humble magnet]

Fair enough

You could make prototype versions of the missing content though right? If not you, maybe a modder friend whose willing to help

Anyways I watched the playtest clips

I have a few things to say. This might take a sec

[worn topaz]

we tried :3
it doesnt work too well :"3
rose implemented stationary platforms instead of the rickshaw :3

it,,, had the issue we taked about with how the rickshaw moving plays a huge part in being able to navigate :'3

[obsidian spruce]

saw the videos and like i feel like starman is kinda weak on this map, also the gameplay never shows mega in action

also i wanna say it could be campy but i feel like i maybe could find a way around it if i ever get to play it so i don't wanna write it off yet

[worn topaz]

oh, right, didnt have enough file space for that :3
#1392680501579350026 message

[obsidian spruce]

hmm not sure what to think from the video alone but atleast it doesn't seem too op
it seems easy to stall out but you could say that for every map

[worn topaz]

honestly its really hard to tell :'3

personally im confident its not a problem purely because high ground isnt what gets you stars in this map, you need to purposefully go to lower ground to get every single star (exception for the top star, but i changed it in the newest version im working on), so its hard to "camp", sure, you can stay on top of the rickshaw and spam, but when the star actually spawns, you gotta move and get it! ^v^

but as with any map, thats just theory, even through playtests its hard to tell if camping is truely possible based on 2.0 physics being different and the fact that parsec has delay,,, but i think the concept of the level itself should make camping a lil less bad compared to other maps :3

[worn topaz]

oh yeah mega actually is really underpowered on this map :'3

[obsidian spruce]

so how is one meant to catch up if they're behind?

[worn topaz]

but i tried to make up for that with spinners and also by having a lot of destructible terrain (obviously not the only reason i implemented those but its a reason) so mega should at least be fun, and youll definetly get a naturally spawning star assuming you play your cards right :3

[worn topaz]

well, mega isnt,,, really good on any map ill be honest :'3

like, if you get mega its usually a detriment aside from being able to get spawning stars a lil easier :'3

[obsidian spruce]

yeah and neither is starman it seems, since you can't take advantage of it's speed boost as well

[glacial mirage]

Thought that was the same
sorry about that

[obsidian spruce]

so if someone is far away it's pretty ineffective

[obsidian spruce]

it's fine

[worn topaz]

starman is definitely pretty decent, because the map is very vertical its easy to catch people off-guard when you have it :3

but even so,,,

i dont think thats a problem if starman isnt the best, either, in fact i think its a good thing!

ill explain why!

[obsidian spruce]

i imagine but i always thought the point was for catching up in the game, especially if someone is just running from you

[worn topaz]

ofc, but hera me out!

[obsidian spruce]

ok

[worn topaz]

in normal mvlo maps, the reason why being at a disadvantage is so hard to recover from is because running is easy, but also stars are dispersed throught the whole map!

like, if i run away in a normal mvlo game, it works because i can just get naturally spawning stars :3

however, in this map, thats not entirely the case!

you can run away, but look at where all the stars spawn! (ignore the top one, its removed in the latest version) :3

running doesnt give you an inherit advantage because youll never get a naturally spawning star if you arent in the middle :3

in grassland for example, you need a starman to catch up because someone camping on the bricks can stay and wait for stars to spawn around him!,

but here, stars only spawn around you if youre in a pretty vulnerable position, they only spawn in that one general area :3

so running doesnt work!

and you can even stay in the middle with starman if you dont wanna risk pursuing someone :3

id compare it more to smash bros :3

in that game, you dont need a catchup mechanic because you cant just stay in 1 spot and win :3

thats the same with this map, staying in 1 spot doesnt usually accomplish anything,,,

[obsidian spruce]

ig i get it
im gonna try to find a way to camp anyway

well if i play

[worn topaz]

eheh! ofc!!!

thats the point of playtesting! ^v^

i tried in the playtests i did in the nsmb playtests, in my experience it seemed hard,,, but again, not entirely conclusive :3

itd need to be tested in mvlo :3

[fast sundial]

starman lost all it had going when 2.0 came out tbh

[red condor]

True until that goofy ass bumping bug is fixed

[scarlet cloak]

and the item chances

[humble magnet]

• A lot of the reason as to why people don't like maps like volcano is that they are too vertical and it's hard to find where the stars spawn. I know this was addressed with that one update that added the arrow in the minimap, but I don't think it's the best solution, especially for such TALL maps like this.

• Adding to that previous point, minimaps are just not made for vertical maps. Yes there's the option to make the minimap track vertical position but that then disables the horizontal tracking unless you make your own custom 2D minimap.

• The 2 playtesters in these clips seem to be playing very fairly by going after each other but that doesn't negate the fact that it looks very easy to camp in this map like I previously said where one player can just push the other down and give them the hassle of having to climb back up only to be then pushed back down or just find that their opponent is no longer there.

• This map also seems to be very lacking in enemies, only having 2 red koopas basically right on top of each other. I think there should be a few more or so given there is only 1 pit and that pit is covered by a floor only mega can destroy. In MVLO this problem is made worse given enemies respawn on star pickup and not when entering your screen.

• By the way all of this isn't even mentioning MVLO specific issues like the enemies thing like the fact propeller and hammer exist as well as the fact you can play with 3+ players. Anyone can very easily just stay at the top spamming hammers as if that wasn't already annoying in pipes, and good luck ever touching anyone that's using propeller unless you have one yourself.

• I was originally going to say something here about coins cuz I miscounted and thought there were 9. There seems to be 13 here which is a fine amount I think (15 if you kill both koopas).

• To finish things off, here's a tip less about the game itself and moreso just for when you develop something. Something I noticed often with custom maps is that they don't really consider casual players, usually leaving playtesting to the better players which will then cause certain issues to not be addressed, whether that'd be some things that better players are used to that casuals aren't, or just issues that better players might not care about so they don't mention it. A better player will likely have an easier time navigating this jungle gym of a map, but most casuals are probably going to stick to the bottom half of it. We had that happen when playtesting ghost house. We were ok with the hidden minimap gimmick but then a lot of people complained about it when it released. This game is supposed to be a casual game right? Maybe get them involved a bit more if you can...
  -# Granted idk how you'd get them on board given this server feels like it only ever has the same people active in here but yeah that's something you gotta keep in mind.

Anyways yeah that's all lol I appreciate that you put all of the star spawns on the bottom half of the map though! Good job on that part.

[worn topaz]

ah, for the first point, theyre all in generally the same spot!

the middle :3

vertically you have all the information you need :3

this is why we couldnt make the minimap vertical!

because or else you wouldnt know where the stars are horizontally :3

[river needle]

Discussing over things that were discussed about a year ago

[worn topaz]

to be fair,

[humble magnet]

I brought up volcano as a comparison. My point with that is that the map is too horizontal which makes it hard to track things vertically through the minimap

[worn topaz]

i dont blame people for not wanting to read 2000 messages :"3

[river needle]

still

[humble magnet]

With volcano it's bad but you can at least just say "ok it's not here I will go to the top/bottom floor"

[gilded gyro]

theres star arrows on the minimap

[humble magnet]

With this map if you're in the middle you're going to think "ok where do I go next?"

[humble magnet]

I wrote a full page of text which mentions this too

[worn topaz]

well, heres the thing!,
only 2 things on the minimap, stars and players :3

with stars, you know where they are vertically, so its fine :3
with players, you dont know where they are vertically, but thats a good thing!!!
if you saw your opponent above you then youd obviously just try to go higher than them, thats why vertical minimaps cant work :'3
in here, you never need to think "where do i go next", you already have the answer!, the middle where all the stars spawn :3

thats where you should go, and thats where everyones gonna want to go, the middle!

[gilded gyro]

Truly a Wtf Is Going On?! moment

[worn topaz]

^v^'

[humble magnet]

Good point but that's under the assumption that the player is going after stars. What if you want to find a koopa to throw at the opponent? Good luck with that if the 2 of them are already dead. Want powerups? There's only 1 block which is in the top part of the map unless you go around getting coins, which would require you go up and down left and right in the map, which would also make it hard for the opponent to reach you if you are also doubling the coin hunting as just camping away from them, which is what most pro players tend to do. As you can see, even ignoring the minimap there's problems to having a map that's both vertical and horizontal

[worn topaz]

,,,?
if you,,, if you wanna find a koopa then you can check in the 2 spots where there is a koopa,,, and then go,,, to the middle :'3
if you want a powerup, you go in the pipe to the top to get one,,, then you go to the middle :'3

like, if i wanted a koopa on grassland and i check that theres no koopa then yeah ig that sucks :'3

the minimap doesnt change that :'3

if you can catch your opponent doing either of those things youll be rewarded :3

if i see you dont have a powerup, ill race you to the top :3

its happened many times, thats actually why people fight at the top a lot!

because someone with a powerup can predict where their opponent would be, if they cant, doesnt matter!, stay in the middle!

plus, navigating vertically in this level is ez pz :3

i can go to the bottom koopa, check it quick, nothing there? take the vine up to the next koopa, nothing there? alright, go back to what you were doing :3

quick, easy, the ability to scale vertically is satesfying, fun, and simple!

on this map ;3

[humble magnet]

The whole point about going over the other players and stuff kinda shows the issue with camping that I keep mentioning. If you go up directly under them they are obviously gonna attack you, so you strategize by going up but away from them so that you can attack them from the sides (most likely not from above unless you have propeller cuz this is assuming you are at the top of the map), and at that point the opponent is now aware of you so they go down and you have to continue chasing after them, making you have to guess where vertically they are again if they manage to outpace you.

[humble magnet]

That was moreso talking under mvlo rules where the enemies spawn on star pickup. I guess nevermind that point then

The camping and running away stuff isn't too bad if you are looking for a koopa given they are in a pretty specific part of the map but the point still stands for coins

[worn topaz]

well, a lot of the times you can go from below to above and youll be fine, its a desicion :3

the slower pipe, or the riskier, faster alternative of going directly up :3

its hard to describe, but when youre actually playing the map this is never a problem :'3

you can react to opponents poentially coming at you from the side, but if you stand right under them as you go up thats moreso your fault for not keeping tabs on their horizontal position :3

staying in the middle is where you wanna be, if youre in the middle, no point in changing your position :3

i really dont see what youre trying to say here,,,

[humble magnet]

I'm tryna say your map has a pretty big camping problem that either you really did figure out somehow or you just aren't seeing

The map wraps horizontally and vertically too cuz of the pipes

I noticed the pipes earlier but only just realized that doesn't help with the camping thing 🥴

Cuz now you just have the problem of volcano PLUS the problem of pipes, which granted is only partially a problem with that pipes comparison cuz at least here you can't go in the top pipes

..... unless you have propeller!

[worn topaz]

camping implies that theres one good spot to stay in, which has an advantage over your opponent, thats harder to contest than it is for the camper to defend,,,

what spot like that exists here,,,

[humble magnet]

I keep saying camping but I'm moreso talking just running away from the player. That's stalling out the timer presumably to win from timeout or just keep rolling the dice for better powerups or just a good chance to strike the opponent

[fast sundial]

-#

[humble magnet]

Running away can still be considered camping can it not? Even if they can't, they are still clumped together as similar enough problems

[worn topaz]

you cant run away, you need to stay near the middle :'3

or you wont get stars :'3

[humble magnet]

Unless you are above the player in the middle and you peck them with fire flowers or some other projectile and have the stars jump up to you, both making it hard for the bottom player to get up and letting you win easier

[gilded gyro]

SteamedHams when its about "the middle":

https://tenor.com/view/jelly-bean-berzerker-minecraft-gif-25597313

[worn topaz]

you can try to peck at them from higher up but that doesnt garuntee anything :'3

[scarlet cloak]

kazik, force him to play Kirby superstar please and thank you

[humble magnet]

It can though? It's often optimal to stay in the high ground in pretty much all the maps

[humble magnet]

Ultra?

[scarlet cloak]

nah

[humble magnet]

If you are high enough for them to not be visible from your end then yeah ofc that's not gonna do shit but if you are just above of them then yeah you can fuck them over pretty hard

[humble magnet]

Yeah sorry that's gonna be a NO from me

[gilded gyro]

Pretend im an artist and i just sent an image of me regretting choking kazik for a second

[fast sundial]

zomble give me the task to force windows to play pikmin 2 kaizo please i swear i will do it and not give up like FRAUDzik

[gilded gyro]

Pretend im an artist and i just sent an image of me choking foxyyy

[humble magnet]

I forgive you I think? ☺️

[worn topaz]

in actual gameplay, its not as black and white as youre making it out to be :3
you cant just throw fireballs down, because the player youre targetting with that could have seen a fireball and gone in the pipe or took the vine or went up the rickshaw :3

you need to find your opponent, and if you see them, then you can actually do something, but if you cant, nothing you do will really matter :3

[humble magnet]

I never even touched pikmin.... 🥹

[worn topaz]

and then both sides have insane counterplay to react accordingly :3

[humble magnet]

If they go down the pipe you can either meet them at the top or go down the pipe with them, once again giving you the height advantage for a bit

[fast sundial]

FRAUDDDDDDDD

[humble magnet]

Until you either fall to the floor they are at or you fall on a floor above them

[worn topaz]

meet them at the top? :'3

if they use the pipe;

they have the biggest hight advantage known to man :'3

so you arent punishing them for taking the pipe!~

that is, if you even know they did ;3

its really not as simple as it seems :3

just having a hight advantage doesnt matter, you can shoot down fireballs all you want but the stars wont spawn near you!

[humble magnet]

Ok fair yeah it is hard to meet them at the top

Which only just made me realize another problem

You can only go up to the top by using the vines or by doing some precise triple jumps and wall jumps. The hole with the removed star spawn is the most likely spot to wall jump up to the top but even that seems finnicky and easily camped out, let alone the other ways you can get up which can only be done using propeller in mvlo, and might I remind you that mvlo has slightly different coyote time for wall sliding I'm pretty sure, which might mean that even wall jumping up is also an mvlo specific thing without triple jumps.
Also I'm sending the map layout again so that anyone can look at it while reading my point here, this time I drew these lines to separate which parts (at least to me anyway) are the top, middle, and bottom of the map

The 4 starts to the right of the middle section are VERY prone to my issue that I mentioned with fire pecking (yeah that's what I'm calling it now )

[gilded gyro]

Just put the fires in the peck lil bo

[worn topaz]

mvlo is 1000x more lenient with its walljumping :3

in fact, if ported to mvlo it would be much easier to navigate in this map then it ever would in nsmb :'3

that is to say its even hard to get up from the bottom in the first place-

vine, jumping from the vine block to the bricks, 2 extremely easy walljumps in between the bricks, and the pipes, all ways to get up and all need your opponent to pay attention to vastly different areas :'3

needless to say getting up isnt hard :'3

and needless to say punishing someone who tries to get up isnt easy :'3

thats even to say someone shooting from the top even knows their opponent is below them :'3

getting up isnt hard, camping someone trying to get up is whats hard :'3

[zealous portal]

2.0 walljumps my beloved

[worn topaz]

ah, also, to reply to everything else you said,,,

The 2 playtesters in these clips seem to be playing very fairly by going after each other
yes, because it makes for great footage!, we tried camping ofc, but its not nearly as interesting to see camping counterplay as it is to see 2 people fighting, those clips were to show that fighting is interesting if you get into them :3

This map also seems to be very lacking in enemies,
2 koopas seemed to be fine, esspecially since one is where youre fighting :3
in previous versions i tried adding more enemies, specifically i mainly tried adiing para-troopas, turret bills, and goombas, none of them worked out well,,,

• paratroopas would be annoying to fight against, when doing playtests with less experienced players we found out that it was annoying to move around while running only to be jumpscared by them "i like the map, but i hate the paratroopas" was pretty consistent feedback :3
• turret bills loop forever on a map as short as this, they didnt work,,,
• goombas walked off ledges, which on this map means everywhere, so no,,,
  2 koopas was a sweet spot!, enough to pick up and throw em at people, but not enough to make it seem like youre fighting the stage rather than other players, :3
  pits also have been tried and dont work, specifically theres nowhere to really put em without sacrificing a lot of the mobility you have with this stage, when theory-crafting how to make the bottom less annoying to be in, a common conclusion was "if only that pit wasnt there,,,", getting knocked down to the bottom is punishment enough, no need for pits :3

By the way all of this isn't even mentioning MVLO specific issues
first of all, hammer is getting nerfed so the projectile disapears after a bit, so thats not even relevant :'3
second of all, propellor is not that good of a powerup, having a map that compliments it is fine imo, the pipes are 1-way, btw :3
ice flower in jungle exists, clearly some customs being good on maps isnt a concern at all :'3
if customs being wildly unbalanced is what means a map cant get added then no interesting gimmicky maps will ever be added ever again :'3

To finish things off, here's a tip less about the game itself and moreso just for when you develop something.
im already aware, ive done casual player playtests already :3
thats why i added the yellow pipes and the vine!!!
2 main reasons why they exist:
softlock prevention,
ease of access for newer players,
when theyre more daring to try the harder ways of getting up, then they can try!
fun fact, when playtesting with a more experienced player, they mentioned "can we remove the vine? it doesnt seem too useful to me,,,", they made some good points, but overall i vouched to keep it in specifically to think about newer players :3

[worn topaz]

MOUNTAINS UPDATED DESIGN

i wanted to make a few changes to mountains since it did have issues, id like to know what yall think of these changes!! ^v^
hopefully people who were more on edge about the design like these changes! :3

changed the 2 platforms above the rickshaw to be semisolids rather than just blocks, and extended it

makes climbing the stage much easier, now you can get from the bottom to the top muuuuch faster than ever before! the platform still has bricks for walljumping, and it being extended means theres a new way to get to the top by going up through the donuts!, its quite fun!!!~

lower stars

the star by the top area has been brought down to the rickshaw, and the rickshaw stars have been lowered too, this makes camping by being at the top of the rickshaw nigh-impossible ;3

raised brick platforms and top area

makes the map feel more open and you practically never bump your head now, veri liberating!!! ^v^

donuts by the bottom pipes

-# (this one is subject to change)
its a bit of an iffy change,,, i wanted to make going in the pipe more of a way to move around and less as a "get out of jail free card", taking the pipe now stalls you so you cant use it to run away from a fight!! this also makes mega and starman easier to catch people with, as well as making it easier for chasers to catch up to people running away :3
this does come with the side effect of waiting, pipes already take a while to enter but now with the donuts it takes a little but longer,,, and as some testers have pointed out it makes it less forgiving for players who aren't as familiar with the map or players who cant walljump very well,,,

id like to know what everyone else thinks about this change!, im not sure whether to keep it in or not but im leaning toward yes :'3

the first image is the new map,
the second image is the old map,
the third image shows the differences between the two (the red parts are what the previous design looked like)

:3

[finite osprey]

Floating red koopa

[worn topaz]

eheh yeah, thats how ya get him to semi-consistently spawn on the platform :'3

but ipod said the koopa will be tied to the platform itself :3

in mvlo ofc!

[finite osprey]

This is the 2283rd message in this post

[worn topaz]

and as well, some more gameplay clips!!!, heres some interesting moments, as well as a lot of mega footage :3

[scarlet cloak]

I don't like the donut platforms on the pipes.. feels like it could completely discourage ever using it..
the rest is good

[finite osprey]

SINCE WHEN WAS THERE A VINE

[bronze lava]

since the post was made

[finite osprey]

Oh that block

The discord ui overlay hid it

[worn topaz]

ah, yeah,,, its a very controversial change,,,
there are reasons to have it, and reasons to not, ive had a few people say why it doesnt work and a few people say why it does :3

heres an instance of "not being able to use them to get out of jail free" :3

they dont take too long to lower, just enough so you dont use them to run away and rather just to get up top :3

[scarlet cloak]

well
okay nevermind this is fine

[worn topaz]

eheh!!!

you can click the image to see the whole thing!

and as well, heres some clips of how the layout changes make navigation easier :3

[finite osprey]

What’s with the big empty space here

[worn topaz]

just so it didnt blend in with the message above :3

[bronze lava]

as a playtester and as someone who designed a bunch of maps, i honestly really like this
the map feels much better to navigate and its much easier to go to the top or bottom
-# i can only say that the donuts are a weird decision but its just that
id recommend anyone to playtest this in the og mvl or just ask vin to playtest it if you re still unsure about it instead of speaking blindy
y'all are never going to know if you dont try it by yourself

[steady bronze]

we cant add vines to vanilla because #1056046100999577620 did already, sorry gang

[worn topaz]

[Updated] NEW Mountains Map Design!!!

[worn topaz]

dang :'3

[finite osprey]

Oof

[rugged otter]

Hmm there's one thing that bugs me

[worn topaz]

oop?

[glacial mirage]

we can add uhhhh
bouncy hippos from mario wonder

[bronze lava]

thats quite unrelated

[scarlet cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/everyone-get-out-get-out-spongebob-spongebob-everyone-get-out-gif-7552266301177259928

[worn topaz]

sorry, cant add those since nintendo already added it in their game first :'3

[glacial mirage]

Damn guess we gotta replace mario and luigi too

[rugged otter]

It's probably not an issue at all, but there's only single way to go up physically. I guess there are the yellow pipes that fixes the issue

(Forgot a 3rd arrow to the left)

[bronze lava]

isnt that like three

three ways

[worn topaz]

well, 3 ways up!, but yes the yellow pipes are meant to fix it for stuff like ffa :3

but hooh :'3

you shouldve seen last version :'3

the middle walljump area was the only way up if not for the yellow pipes :'3

pretty linear,,,

i wanted to fix that with this :3

[rugged otter]

No because you start from the same singular point, it's one way but 3 options

[worn topaz]

i think them being spread out like that makes up for it :3

i would add more ways up,,, but more platforms means harder to descend, and more areas to stay in without being near your opponent,,,

[bronze lava]

tbf the map itself is small
if it was like volcano it should have like atleast more than ""one"" way

[worn topaz]

imagine volcano with only 1 way up :'3

[bronze lava]

id quit mvlo

[worn topaz]

: ' 3

[zealous portal]

why do we already have a taste for that
looking at that one top section with no way down

[scarlet cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/mario-donkey-kong-jumpscare-mini-mario-gif-8762677239793871679

[worn topaz]

wha? :'3

[bronze lava]

@steady bronze can you pin this so ppl doesnt get lost

[young flume]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1056046100999577620/1382581444198793217/i_love_my_mmim_vine.gif

[rugged otter]

Mario poledance

[patent musk]

looks a lot of fun in the playtesting videos, would be excited for this to be added

[worn topaz]

tysm!!! -^v^-

oh also i forgot to say before but tysm @sand crypt for helping with a lot of the footage :3

[bold ridge]

I'm sure you have a reason, but why are those trampolines covered by blocks? Like, if you got a mega and destroied the blocks, yeah, but then the next star collection would just block it off again.

[sand crypt]

thats their purpose, only accessible by mega

[worn topaz]

yeah the point is theyre used for mega to have better coverage then other powerups in terms of verticality :3
the point is you wouldnt ever really use them if you arent mega!!!

[carmine stream]

Sooo..... Is this gonna get added to the base game or Will It Just be an addon? Just curiuos! @worn topaz (Sorry for the ping!)

[worn topaz]

no worries!, you can ping me anytime :3

as far as the status of the map, well, im not sure ^v^'
its planned to be an official map from what ive heard, but when it gets implemented is TBA :3

[bronze lava]

hai vin

[carmine stream]

Okay! I honestly think It Will release with the addons update

[carmine stream]

I think there should be a star on the top of the map, so players would have a reason to go on the top of the map.

[river needle]

there's the only powerup spot there, so they have enough reason to go

[carmine stream]

They Just use coins, basically nobody uses powerups blocks in this game. They Just use coins

[river needle]

you're right, nobody uses the powerup spot in jungle/bonus

[carmine stream]

Yeah

Same Will be here i guess

[worn topaz]

ah, theres a lot of reasons why thats not the case!!!

let me explain!

[bronze lava]

hai vin

[worn topaz]

dispersing stars on this map causes many problems! the minimap is still horizontal, so we need stars to be generally on the same level vertically so that you dont need to guess where the star spawned and so that you wont need to travel very far to get it!!!
as well, i didnt place stars at the top of the map to avoid the problem of running away/camping,,, see, in mvlo being at a higher elevation than your opponent is a strict advantage, so if you give people the oppurtunity to stay at the top of the map instead of fighting then youll obviously wanna stay there if youre winning!,
the top of the map acts as a reprive, you go up there for its plentiful coins and for the powerup, many people still need fireflowers in ffa if you cant get anything else!!, i constantly find myself needing powerup boxes in ffa, but also people go for the powerup box when customs are off, and when doing 1v1s!, the powerup box the the most important thing to go for in many situations :3

so overall, star spawns only spawn near the middle to:

• avoid confusion for where the star has spawned,
• cuts down travel time for getting the stars,
• stops people from camping by staying near a star spawn at the top,
• theres already enough reason to be there for the coins and the powerup box
• being at the top of the map already gives you the advantage of being at high ground, use it to go down to your opponent instead of staying there!

^v^

[worn topaz]

hai!

[bold ridge]

Ah, alr

[trim spire]

Forgive me for being dense, but this is a joke right?

[steady bronze]

yes lol

[trim spire]

Kk thanks