theorycrafting

[edgy crater]

just test it on fatso

[daring dove]

The only thing fidget spinner is good for is making your enemies uninstall the game.

[edgy crater]

0 hp jet engine

[gritty briar]

so the ardelia just can't combo ever again cause the vuln is never used?

[abstract fractal]

yes lmao

[daring dove]

Ardelia needs Endmin or Pog to be used with Rossi.

Unless going for single rot nuke

[abstract fractal]

you can get around it with perlica bs then gil bs to create a corrosion but it's not worth the sp

[daring dove]

Part of the reason I'm building support Endmin right now.

[abstract fractal]

the stacks go away because this boss changes phases i guess

[abstract fractal]

endmin without full phys is kinda cope?

[valid zealot]

They have atk boost (tiny).

Good enough.

[daring dove]

Endmin with 21% ATK buff.

[abstract fractal]

you only get rossi's mark in rossi gil teams

[gritty briar]

he's still providing an atk buff and doing a good chunk of damage

even if he's only 1/3 of a usual dps operator, that's still more of a contribution than a lot of other options

[valid palm]

I think Endmin is a perfectly fine support

[gritty briar]

iana's sheet puts endmin at 20-25% damage share in a team where rossi is doing 60%

is any of the supports you can think of worth 1/3 of rossi's full dps?

aside from gil cause she's already there

[valid palm]

Swordmancer stagger output + 15% attack buff for team + Eminent Repute is a pretty solid amount of support contribution even if you're not investing in their damage

[daring dove]

Thing is Endmin's support weapon doesn't even make them lose much personal damage with potentials on it anyway. Purely P0 vs P0 it's likely quite a bit worse though. Since all of the ATK% is in the 3rd line on support Endmin.

[valid palm]

and if you aim for Arts Intensity in gear then you have an easy way to both buff their damage and team contribution by raising stagger further

Hypergryph designed Edmin pretty well imo for a protagonist kit, and the only real downside of their kit is the result of a system-wide issue (sp refund not giving ult energy)

[valid palm]

also a 30% physical damage buff if your rotation allows for any big skill uses before consuming them

[distant python]

p5 now transforms teh refund into recovery

[valid palm]

god if only

[fossil pendant]

endmin thermite cutter

[valid palm]

endmin frontiers

actually would frontiers even be better?

I feel like even for full-support endmin swordmancer might just be better

[daring dove]

My the time we get P5 Endmin we'll have level 90 gear sets anyway so who cares.

[valid palm]

I wonder how many Edmin potentials we'll get in Wuling finale. Are they just gonna drop them all at once or we have to wait for 2.0 to start getting some again

[daring dove]

I reckon we'll get 1 more in Wulling two if we're very lucky but doubt it.

[fossil pendant]

we get them all and then doctor comes back to be the mc of next region

along with the good writers

[valid palm]

Then again, Endfield's release cycles have already been non-standard in quite a few ways so who knows how the pacing of everything will go

[gritty briar]

yeah i wonder if it's gonna be a once per region thing

would be a pretty long time to wait

[vernal ore]

Maybe we'll get Variants on Endmin

[fossil pendant]

all of endmin's pots have done pretty substantial things so far compared to most other characters so I wonder if they're just holding on to them to keep him more relevant as time goes on

[hollow swan]

yeah i kind of doubt Endmin will get basic stat boosts from the potentials but who knows

giving all of them some kind of functionality increase would be cool. like just expand what kind of teams they are useful in.

also did yall notice Rossi bs does like 20 stagger? or is it 15? either way its more than most other bs.

i guess its balanced out because her cs only does 5 right

[cunning tangle]

anyone knows how much better is lupine scarlet compared to glorious memory?

[hollow swan]

ive heard glorious P5 is 10% below P0 lupine

[cunning tangle]

i see thanks for the info

[hollow swan]

it seems like to get the most out of lupine you want to on-field Rossi

[valid palm]

It does 18 stagger

Which a lot of other characters do

Namely Ardelia, Endmin, Laev, Pog, Tang2, and Wulf

She also has a pretty slow basic sequence, which means her stagger output is notably lower than average

[warm galleon]

Got three 6stars in 110 pulls on Rossi banner, none of them Yvon

[valid palm]

(until you start factoring in other parts of the kit and the fact that she's on physical teams, anyway)

[runic harness]

I got 4 and none of them were yvon either ☹️

[vernal ore]

I wish I had gotten Yvonne p1 instead of Ember on Tang2...

[honest hill]

Ember is good in umbral

[vernal ore]

Yes but Yvonne is my beloved

Like I'm not mad about getting Ember

But sad Yvonne is only p0

[honest hill]

she still good at P0

[vernal ore]

Yes but I'm a simp

[honest hill]

use this 💳

[vernal ore]

Sadly can't afford (bad Job Market esp when disabled) and would def not since her banner is gone

RN trying to stop myself from going for Rossi

She's so cute and her BiS team has both Wulf and Endmin

[dry kindle]

Easy

Just dont have weapon pulls

[vernal ore]

(and Gilberta who I got for my wife)

[vernal ore]

I have weapon pulls tho and enough pulls to 120 her

But I want to wait to see who's next version

[dry kindle]

Can't relate

[warm galleon]

My children have not eaten anything for 3days but at least I have Rossi.

[dry kindle]

Probably mifu and either lizhiyan or fangyi

Doubt It's mifu fangyi but

[vernal ore]

Yea see I have been eyeing the latter since day 1, if she's there I def need to not pull now

[cobalt basin]

-children +digital child

[vernal ore]

To be precise (I only buy BP, Monthly pass and that one 99 cent Endmin weapon pack)

The 17 pulls on Rossi are 10 from the Dossier from Tang2, 5 from that exchange shop, and 2 from log in

[dry kindle]

Whel

[vernal ore]

I will note that I sadly did have to skip Lava as I was saving for Yvonne at the time

I have everyone but Lava and Rossi rn

[dry kindle]

Fund me

[vernal ore]

I am sadly not rich IRL, and am saving mostly rn for when they give us a lim hot guy (I am very bi) and likely Zhuang (depends if that ugly green form is a big part of her kit)

Note I adore Zhuang’s regular design

She has BAGGY HAKAMA PANTS

But Rossi is adorable… baby

Daughter, little sister

Bringing out the maternal instincts

[honest hill]

nah I skip

[proud vector]

Does anyone have the numbers for Rossi arts vs phys damage share?

[honest hill]

characters this patch are not so relevant to story except tt

[proud vector]

In a nice pie graph if possible hahaha

[honest hill]

it seems like it mostly arts because of her ult

most of her damage is from ult like chen

[proud vector]

Does thou hast the calcs to back up thy assumption?

[honest hill]

if u look at her bp wep it's for ult

I don't have her so idk numbers

[proud vector]

it would do good to know for sure

[honest hill]

P5 BP wep is 9-10% worse

[drifting quest]

depends a lot based on team

[proud vector]

Yeah… it does

[honest hill]

P5 GM buffs ult

[proud vector]

Shhh

We sig in this household

[drifting quest]

a lot of teams now seem to be ignoring phys damage more and more

[honest hill]

if most her damage wasn't from her ult then P5 GM would be way way worse

[drifting quest]

and shifting to arts stuff

[honest hill]

ye cuz her ult is most of her damage

[drifting quest]

pretty much in the pretc spot we were at before of ignoring phys entirely

no crusher/breacher

may change more in future

[proud vector]

I see why Gilberta is being pushed then everywhere I look I suppose

[drifting quest]

its day 1 after all

gilb is

ehhh

its just annoying

[proud vector]

ups and downs

[drifting quest]

restricts the rotation a bit for things like rossi tangtang

[proud vector]

starter vuln exists at least

[thorn shore]

I was watching a Rossi team and I was like oh damn she’s ass huh

Then boss went from like 90% to dead in 1 ult

[honest hill]

yeah it's ult doing all the damage

heat

[drifting berry]

The only reason Rossi would like combustion is for this passive?

I though ult wanted combustion but that doesn't seem to be the case

[abstract fractal]

how much energy does Rossi get from bs and cs?

[proud vector]

It does…

Ult is a 27hit so

With you being able to get to 70-90% crit rate it does add up to a significant sum during ult

[drifting berry]

Oh makes sense

[proud vector]

6.5(all) + 10(Rossi)
10+10

[drifting berry]

Now I understand why people say that Rossi teams are incomplete, please don't be another back to back to back situation.

[quartz horizon]

i absolutely hope not. im drained completely

[drifting berry]

Yeah, Rossi mugged me and I'm at zeros right now.

[opaque hazel]

How much damage p3 wedge ratio percentage compared to yvonne sig? Cuz from what i see, the most dmg spike it get was from p4 to p5. On wedge.

[drifting berry]

Around 94,5%

[opaque hazel]

Yvonne sig p0

Ohh not bad, kinda close to, thanks for the info

[drifting berry]

P0 Wedge is 84%, P5 Wedge is 104%. So P3 is right at the middle.

[opaque hazel]

I heard from someone b4, pog bs and ult to m1, lifeng bs to m3.

Could up chen ult for more dmg(optional).

[honest hill]

Think u should M3 chen ult

P5 Glorious Memory + run the new yinglung pieces for ult dmg bonus

[potent hornet]

i did not get rossi sadly

[quartz horizon]

rip

[drifting berry]

💳

[whole dove]

what gear for pog if i am use him with rossi? hotworks? swordmancer? frontiers?

[opaque hazel]

Same, i do 40 pulls, expecting some luck. Just for collecting purposed. Sadly i didnt get her.

[bronze plume]

tbf

40 you kinda just

shouldnt expect to get them

[potent hornet]

i might have a bit of extra money to drop on trying to get her

this friday

but i doubt it

[bronze plume]

bros been consumed by the gacha

dont spend unless that spending can guarantee it

[drifting berry]

yeah on 40 pulls should be a really low chance.

without soft pity you just have a 0,8% chance per pull

[opaque hazel]

Yea, thats why i said, "expecting some luck". Only spend 5000 oro, cuz i also need the arsenal for another banner 😌.

[bronze plume]

yeah expecting luck in a gacha

[potent hornet]

i mean

[bronze plume]

is unsurprisingly not a good thing to do

[potent hornet]

i have been pretty lucky so far

[drifting berry]

Everything was fine before Rossi, now I'm praying next banner isn't another Yvonne or Rossi support, if not 💳

[oak vigil]

Mmmmm I get your point, but I feel like you are forcing a bit too much about it on yourself? I mean, your money and all, but still

I feel like both characters already have stacked supports

[drifting berry]

At least I can somewhat afford it, already way to deep into my gacha addiction.

[quartz horizon]

yvonne's team is basically done
rossi on the other hand...

[potent hornet]

how many pulls they giving us with the events going on with the rossi drop?

[quartz horizon]

like 3

[drifting berry]

Isn't the whole 1.1 version like 60-70 pulls?

[quartz horizon]

yeah

a lot of it being limited time ones

[drifting berry]

Was looking at zzz pull economy per patch and they need to do something with endfield, situation is just miserable

[quartz horizon]

shit i dont remember getting that many 😭

[bronze plume]

well you have to account for the entirely different economy of the games systems and that

but yes endfields is rather low

[drifting berry]

Oh yeah, there's some stuff that improves endfield economy despite lower pull acquisition.

Also in average you are spending like 10 less pulls into getting the rate up character compared to other hoyo games.

[potent hornet]

yo the cleaning event seems to be giving some decent rewards

300 then 200

[bronze plume]

that is

1 pull

we in the sahara desert for that to not be considered dry af

glorified power wash simulator

[honest hill]

It seems like a lot then u realise a pull is 500

[fossil pendant]

the materials though

[bronze plume]

the materials 9/10 are the best thing

until you realize that its only good becuase you dont have any sanity

[honest hill]

We need the events for it

[bronze plume]

it is interesting how they are throwing so many marks around

[fossil pendant]

the material acquisition in this game is completely hard carried by events

[potent hornet]

i mean per mission i think this is giving the most so far out of all the events

[fossil pendant]

lol

[potent hornet]

this is a good sign i think

[soft tendon]

ran out of mats raising phys, did umbral and delver and now im swimming in mats again

[honest hill]

yep which is sad, it should be mainly protocol space and events give shit ton of oro

I feel like I get scammed when I do protocol space

Doing anything for resources

[potent hornet]

i'm curious when they will give us a "tower"

[soft tendon]

i do protocol spaces out of desperation atp

[honest hill]

I just essence farm

[soft tendon]

i need some replayable endgame in 1.2

essence farm is the most exciting part of the dailies i do

[opaque hazel]

By essence means, min maxing your essence?

[soft tendon]

getting essence fodder to etch my current stuff

[nocturne totem]

For Rossi's ultimate, does Wulfguard's combustion multiplier outperform Akekuri's buffs?

I'm running her with Pog and endmin (cus they're already built)

[opaque hazel]

Oh yea , currently the hardest one to maxed out. Especially on the 8/9 to 9/9. 😌 always hit my pity on there.

[tight haven]

we still got one more event this patch

surely it will have arsenal and oro right guys

[hollow swan]

i don't think so. im not sure how Link is calculated though. like is it just 30% dmg additive or is it a mult? the combustion thing is like 12% mv on crit which doesn't seem very impactful.

[fossil pendant]

link is a straight undiluted multiplier

[nocturne totem]

Combustion gives her ult 1.5 multiplier was it?

[valid palm]

these pulls are split between character/weapons in a game where the weapons are more necessary and maximum pity for a character is 40 pulls higher

[hollow swan]

nah its a 1.5 mult to the talents damage

[valid palm]

I love ZZZ but I don't think comparing its pull economy to Endfield's is fair at all

[nocturne totem]

Ouhhh, it's the "additional hit" effect, not the ult itself

Akekuri seems abit smoother to play with then, since both Pog and Akekuri act as batteries

[shrewd saffron]

what's the consensus for gear and team so far? didn't get to try her out at all yesterday

[valid palm]

check pins

[drifting berry]

Yeah reason why I also added this, in average each rate up character are cheaper to get compared to Hoyo games.

There are other stuff like endfield giving you access to free signature weapons (tho who tf though 25-75 was a good rate) and zzz only requiring you to get 3 limited characters instead of 4, but everything comes down to that the pulls we get per patch are not a lot and we could get a little bit more.

Not asking anything crazy, zzz has a different economy compared endfield, reason why they get that much

[signal sundial]

So I got the god pull of 3 stanzas in 1 pull making my stanza pot 4/5, is this enough to dethrone Gil's sig?

[warped sorrel]

price for first copy for any character in endfield is a half price compare to hoyo

[teal pawn]

I dunno about that but

Wow losing 50/50s back to back does feel like shit

[valid palm]

I think this is fair. Endfield's pulls have felt good so far but I don't think we'll really know until 1.3 or 1.4 tbh. That's long enough for the 1.0 stuff to really drain dry and, as far as we know, the Wuling climax stuff to be over, which means it will be our first look at what a true "filler patch" standard will be going forward

Because a lot of Endfield's pull economy is wrapped up in one-time permanent content additions rather than recurring sources, so it really depends on how much of that we're going to be getting during the "downtime"

[thorn shore]

this game been easy as hell to get characters

its super anecdotal but ive spent only like $200 ish and have all limited and sigs so far including rossi

hell even got p1 yvonne and gil along the way

[limpid shadow]

Ah yes let me get my 200 bucks of disposable income

[thorn shore]

the $200 probably only confirmed me 2 extra char pulls at best

we all know money doesnt go extremely far in gacha games

need to dump lots

[quartz horizon]

#salt-mine-gacha-flex

[vestal sinew]

so how good is the laev rossi team?

[thorn shore]

ping everyone else discusingg the gacha too

[quartz horizon]

nah im just upset that i couldnt get gilberta

[thorn shore]

shes by far my favorite

i expected her to not be near as good as she is

im glad shes being shoved into so many teams

[quartz horizon]

she better rerun soon

[thorn shore]

once we get more element specific supports she will start getting dropped from teams more and more

[fresh trench]

i have successfully increase ardelia damage by 10

[quartz horizon]

i want her for her

she's adorable

[dry kindle]

Where's my weapon pulls

[nocturne totem]

It's nubbad but there's some nuance in heat management

So bit more micromanaging needed

[tough nest]

does chen get good value from basic attack m3 if you control her?

[dry mason]

Go swipe

[dry kindle]

[drifting berry]

Looks fun but can't because I didn't pick Sundered Prince

[foggy lance]

Slide the best waifu team for rossi

[dry kindle]

Rossi solo

[pure spoke]

Endmin. Wulfgard and chen

[drifting berry]

Couldn't have possibly give a better answer

[foggy lance]

Alr using wulfgard with levi

[foggy lance]

You're right

[drifting berry]

Just waiting for someone to cook a team that makes use of Rossi hybrid damage.

[pure spoke]

How fast is rossi in solo dps compared to tang tang and chen?

[vapid flame]

solo means no arts infliction means no cs right?

[tight haven]

tbh i just want to skin whoever made the weapon gacha 25-75

back to the good old days of jp gachas where pulling a 5* feels the exact same as pulling a 3*

[mortal trellis]

is anyone here familiar with endaxis timeliner?

[peak void]

:clueless:

[mortal trellis]

grrr useless ass channel

[peak void]

#aic-factory is pretty useful :sorawow:

[icy remnant]

It’s definitely balanced around the 1% rates though
Unless you’re in favour of nerfing the 4% 6 star rate to like 2%

And rate up becomes 50/50

[timber harness]

im in favor of the game having a good gacha but everything about it is sht

[icy remnant]

This is why we say HG hates money
They design mechanics around numbers instead of what feels good

And it ends up in players getting more than other gachas in terms of numbers

But it also feels bad

[timber harness]

is there really no alternative to bp weapon if you dont get the sig. heard the bp weapon was pretty cooked in a physical setup

[icy remnant]

Which is the opposite of what gachas actually want to do

Which is be stingy af while appearing generous

[icy remnant]

Turns out there’s no real physical set up anyways
Haven’t seen any successful ones
It’s either Hybrid or Arts

BP is fine

[tight haven]

glorious is like

at best ~10% worse than sig

at p5 bp vs p0 sig

its definitely on the more "wow this feels bad" end

[icy remnant]

Build it for Chen and Rossi at the same time

[icy remnant]

Is 10% bad?

[timber harness]

hybrid has physical units in it. who would do a pure physical setup lol

[icy remnant]

It’s not about it having physical units
I’m talking about damage spread

You always end up wanting to focus on her Ult

They made Wulfgard abit too weak to really set up her combo spam play style is what I think

[mortal trellis]

when people mald the most abhorrent timeline to execute for a 4% damage buff i think 10% is a lot
jokes aside i dont think its that bad, it just feels like a lot when its so fundamentally preventable by just "go gacha"

[tight haven]

wulfgards only issue is his bskill being just

the absolute worst

[icy remnant]

Losing 10% damage to save 16000 Arsenal tickets is bad..? tf

[tight haven]

consuming combustion AND not applying heat

[icy remnant]

Yall crazy

[thorn shore]

Idgaf if it consumes combustion but my sp is precious

[icy remnant]

I just save my Arsenal tickets
We don’t need that much damage to care about losing 10%

[tight haven]

okay but what are you spending those 16k on then

[thorn shore]

Every point gotta go into fueling main dps

[tight haven]

if not an op like rossi

[mortal trellis]

yeah idk then they go turn around and whine about the arsenal ticket economy being bad

[tight haven]

provided you like them

[icy remnant]

TangTang weapon is a good example of a weapon to roll for

[tight haven]

rossi's sig is one of the better ones to get, the bp version isnt an adequate replacement considering her current status as a main dps

[timber harness]

is it really whining when its just objectively agreed to be a bad system

[mortal trellis]

i mean then again (i'm assuming you're like me) we play optimally with no care for anything else

but some people lose their shit if they cant get the sig for a char or if a weapon looks bad cause it doesn't "feel good," nothing wrong with that but like you can't really complain about resource management if youre an impulse buyer

[tight haven]

glorious is, like, just not nearly as good at her sig i hate to say it

she doesnt have to do jack to constantly keep sig stacks up

you actually have to think about glorious

mind you, it's 10% worse at p5 vs her sig at p0

[icy remnant]

Idk I’m losing 9% damage on Laev with her p5 BP weapon and I feel completely fine about it

[mortal trellis]

the system is you are presented with a choice, you can gamble for the 100% efficiency or guarantee the 90% efficiency, everytime you choose the latter, the chance of you winning the gamble increases up to a guarantee as well

[icy remnant]

But one thing is her sig does indeed increase her flexibility

If you really wanted to make a combo spam play style work you can

[mortal trellis]

you have to CHOOSE to make the system bad for yourself because you can't let go of that 10%

[icy remnant]

Just suffer through Wulfgard being bad it’s not her fault

[mortal trellis]

thats every bp weapon by the way

[tight haven]

it is not

[icy remnant]

[tight haven]

umbral was in a similar situation i'll grant, stanza is straight-up comparable to delivery (we dont talk abt tillite), navigator was almost as good as sig (but wedge was better), home longing... uhh

[solemn pilot]

Lupine scarlet P0 or Glorious memo P5 for rossi?

[tight haven]

brigand is unfortunately the goat i hate to say

[mortal trellis]

stanza isn't a bp weapon

[timber harness]

I dont really know whats up with the pseudo philosophy being used to justify borked gacha systems but whatever the case it just is something that can be better implemented for user experience that isnt really a painpoint in other gacha games

[tight haven]

we dont talk abt tillite

[icy remnant]

That tells me all the BP weapons are trash except Umbral and Glorious

[tight haven]

its legit a useless weap

no use cases

[mortal trellis]

ok and thats one of five that are useless

with a pool this small that matters

[tight haven]

stanza is a 5* and about as good as delivery at p0 when max pot

[mortal trellis]

ok but the topic at hand is bp weapons

[icy remnant]

Stanza isn’t the BP weapon

[mortal trellis]

why is stanza coming into question

[icy remnant]

Really bad example

[tight haven]

you said every bp weapon provided a comparable disadvantage

i said this was not the case

[mortal trellis]

so youre saying you want us to be able to guarantee every single bp weap we desire? how do you think that holds up as a business model

very odd

[tight haven]

the swings in relative value also matter when the statement being reinforced here is "well just save the arsenal"

[icy remnant]

You want to read that again but really slowly

[tight haven]

its perfectly fine to splurge on rossi's sig if you like hers because glorious is not going to be nearly as powerful or flexible

[icy remnant]

But yea BP weapons are balanced around their p5 being ~10% lower dps than their signature weapons
And I think it’s completely fair

[mortal trellis]

ok i'll bite — bp weapons aside, would stanza's existence not only strengthen my case? you can p5 it for just 2400 arsenal tickets and its on par with p0 sig

[icy remnant]

Flexibility is the draw for Rossis weapon

[timber harness]

"So you're saying" Pretty much destroyed whatever came after that phrasing. All I said was the system was not good and there are better systems. Whatever defense you run for it isn't an interest to me lol

[pure spoke]

https://tenor.com/view/arknights-theresis-theresa-amiya-sword-gif-10275165732907864074

[tight haven]

i am like, only saying that rossi's sig is one of the better ones to get man

[mortal trellis]

i gave a point that you never addressed so I can only assume

[tight haven]

you don't gotta bite i promise

[mortal trellis]

how am i supposed to say anything other than "so youre saying" when you give me nothing to work with

i made an argument and you replied with "why are you defending it" instead of anything with actual substance

[icy remnant]

Utsu is just a hater

I already stopped caring bout em

[mortal trellis]

i think i can tell

[tight haven]

delivery and artzy were decent skips

scathe, brigand and now lupine are uniquely good on their ops

[timber harness]

Assume away. I'm not interested in the fallacies though on something pretty universally agreed upon.

[mortal trellis]

"not intrested in fallacies" proceeds to drop a fallacy

[tight haven]

i think a lot of people here have resorted to an extreme when it comes to the "does the gacha feel bad" conversation and it's helpful to realize when someone is arguing not to convince others but to convince themselves

[mortal trellis]

holy tech

[icy remnant]

Anyways the math is you’re able to get 63% of signature weapons just by rolling for the characters over the long term
In the short term it’s 33% for the guarantee ratio
So a good compromise is to choose 1 characters sig to skip every 2 banners you pull

[pure spoke]

Guys just say no you and move on

[tight haven]

when the discussion turns to a purported "good business model" then like you can drop it its fine

[fervent totem]

arguecrafting

[peak void]

I pulled deliv for the ult eff, dk if others would agree with the choice

[tight haven]

no this is valid i did the same

the ult eff is crazy

[drifting berry]

The issue with the weapon banner is that game forces me to 80-pull every time

[icy remnant]

Delivery would be BiS once they release the nature dps

Trust

[peak void]

Ult eff L is indeed crazy bruh

[icy remnant]

[mortal trellis]

just use fluorite

she's right there

cmon

[icy remnant]

[tight haven]

i just think when you're talking abt "saving arsenal" you also should ask what you're saving it for

[valid palm]

I mean I think that Support weapons in general are actually better pulls than DPS weapons tbh

[mortal trellis]

saving it for the next sig that actually makes an impact

where you draw the line for that impact is subjective

[peak void]

Yeap

[tight haven]

like if an op's sig is as good as rossi's for the reasons that rossi's is good, it's fine to go for it if you like her

[mortal trellis]

the system is you are presented with a choice, you can gamble for the 100% efficiency or guarantee the 90% efficiency, everytime you choose the latter, the chance of you winning the gamble increases up to a guarantee as well
you have to CHOOSE to make the system bad for yourself because you can't let go of that 10%

[peak void]

Flexibility is a good line

[icy remnant]

The increase in dps is around 10% for dps characters
TangTang is a special case as a sub dps where the sig was disproportionately powerful

[mortal trellis]

alternatively you spend a little if you can't let go of that 10%, which makes sense

[fervent totem]

money solves everything 🐳

[tight haven]

i will merit that these assumptions are based on perfect timelines too

[icy remnant]

For support, just be careful of relying on stanza too much once they start creating mono element teams

Like legit if they start releasing nature dps people get cooked

[valid palm]

took a second to understand what you were waffling about, but after connecting the dots you're 100% correct

[timber harness]

Eh your only purpose was to answer a question for me anyway outside that you don't have to love me my friend

[tight haven]

when you're looking at stacking on navigator vs artzy for example then navigator is just much harder to stack

[fervent totem]

stanza on xaihi

[mortal trellis]

yeah i wrote it on a whim, i could def reword it to be more concise

[tight haven]

so like, that "10%" in practice can widen considerably

we just work with hard numbers in docs and timelines because its easier to visualize but it creates gaps in knowledge like this

[icy remnant]

Honestly people also care too much about signatures in general in a game where 10% dps doesn’t actually matter

[mortal trellis]

we haven't had enough examples yet but it could also go the other way around, a hypothetical situation would be current thermite cutter vs never rest
its WAY easier to stack thermite cutter than never rest, but its still possible to max out both stacks.

[tight haven]

especially when they make stages that just dont allow you to perform timeline gameplay like recent umbral stages

[mortal trellis]

wait why can't you TL? the rng stuff like exploding slugs?

i dont see why you can't for hillsmasher or cranes though

[fervent totem]

depending on the context it can also only be 10% personal dps, so the total gain can sometimes be even less if it isn't a team buff weapon

[tight haven]

in any case im only cautioning against the "oh it's only 10% worse/better" mindset

[icy remnant]

Like have yall actually finished something and went “oh dam this was worth 16k Arsenal tickets to clear faster”

Just saying

[tight haven]

the numbers we put out arent accurate in a gameplay sense

only theoretically

[peak void]

for hillsmasher u dont wanna waste the part of your rot with dmg

for cranes, well youre literally -1 at the start lol

[mortal trellis]

just be rossi and one shot him before he starts combusting

[peak void]

blah blah now gimme my rossi 😭

no rossi leaves a rossi-shaped hole in my heart

[valid palm]

The expectation in every major gacha game is that signature weapons are a luxury. This game may make it harder for you to get 100% of the ones you want as F2P or low spender, but it makes it easier to get ANY of them because it gives you them for free instead of demanding the same currency you use to get characters.

[mortal trellis]

i wonder if its possible to stack like 200% UGE on tangtang and shit out an ult before he tps

[peak void]

TT is 100 energy for ult

[icy remnant]

TangTangs signature straight up being a giga buff to team dps while being a sub dps was pretty crazy though I admit

[mortal trellis]

probably some simple math but i gotta go do work now so i'm done yapping

[distant python]

Holy shit Rossi was made for physical team to kill hillsmasher

[mortal trellis]

rossi was made for herself to kill hillsmasher smh

[icy remnant]

Of all the signatures that released till now I think TangTangs is the only must pull

[valid palm]

Getting every single character's signature that you want has always been something exclusive for those who are paying up for it, or are 'lucky' enough to like characters infrequently

[distant python]

Free fire infliction stacks to consume

[pure spoke]

Or even having the perfect team members. Ppl act like the game is unplayable when you dont have gilberta in certain teams

[peak void]

Rossi was made to be the most flexible fuck on the planet

Like, why

[fervent totem]

i saw that thing and i saw the alternatives and i just rolled it, no questions asked

[mortal trellis]

really? i dont even plan on using her so i've been hesitant

[compact bridge]

We will be fine i think, there is no way they create racist character like nilou

[mortal trellis]

no but the rossi doomposters bro

[drifting berry]

For me the issue is the lack of flexibility and the fkin 75/25. You basically get enough for a signature weapon after 240 ish pulls and if you are f2p there is no other way to obtain arsenal tickets other than Originium conversion with is proportionally worse compare to orundum conversion.

I don't even want more arsenal tickets for free but any qol chances that could give us more options to adquire them, even if it means using my orundum for weapons instead.

Also is true that signature weapons are not really mandatory in any sense so it really depends on how addicted to gacha you are.

[icy remnant]

Racist 😭

[peak void]

Oh yeah the rossi doomposters

[mortal trellis]

alr i seriously gotta go do work now i'll be back later

[peak void]

oh my god rossi sucks bro

[mortal trellis]

i was consdering 75/25 in my argument btw, i'm assuming you go to guarantee

therefore 75/25 is irrelevant outside of pots

[distant python]

I think the BP giving an acceptable f2p option for free is a good balance

[icy remnant]

Guarantee is at 240 but on average if you play the game long term it’s 63% rate of signature to limited operator

[potent hornet]

i don't know LR without Khrav feels bad

[icy remnant]

You can just plan around skipping 1 characters sig every other banner if ur into that

After you save up a stash

[compact bridge]

Just use your oroberyls to pull random char to get the arsenal tbh

[icy remnant]

Short term you play around the guarantee ye

[distant python]

Like we shouldn't be expecting to pull both limited characters per patch, and every patch you get a free alternative weapon for 1 of the limited characters

[peak void]

Without khrav youre running what, Mr. Sundered and their Crit rate 2nd line?

[tight haven]

i literally only care for pots and getting p5 weapons is an absolutely miserable experience

[fervent totem]

pull more to pull more

[distant python]

Seeker of dark lung seems like it's supposed to be the f2p alternative for last rite

[compact bridge]

1 sig every 2 character pulls is the average i think

[tight haven]

it can cost $500 for a single copy of a weap after the first which feels absolutely awful and im unsure why its so bad

[drifting berry]

yeah again, I agree, just want more flexibility options.

[icy remnant]

That’s what I just said

It’s 63% to be exact

[peak void]

So when do i get rossi

[icy remnant]

Not counting credit shop

[drifting berry]

tomorrow

[icy remnant]

Or the weekly stuff

[distant python]

There are flexibility options in the 5 star weapons usually, it's just that those are 5 star weapons

[compact bridge]

Its not a bad deal tbh

[peak void]

that better be true 🥹

[distant python]

5 star weapon for main DPS tends to be quite shit

[drifting berry]

I mean flexibility option to get arsenal tickets other than originium conversion or pulling for characters.

Basically just asking for Orundum to arsenal tickets conversion.

[distant python]

Fair

[icy remnant]

And honestly don’t need to be allergic converting OP to Arsenal tickets
People act as if it’s a bad deal but when you do math it’s really not

[compact bridge]

Its a bad shit lol

[icy remnant]

If you really want the weapon feel free to convert OP instead of sinking rolls for nothing

[distant python]

Yeah but I don't even convert originium into oroberyl to start with

[icy remnant]

No it’s not

[compact bridge]

How much the rate conversion again

[distant python]

1 to 75

Iirc

[compact bridge]

1 yellow to 75 arsenal?

[tight haven]

it's an awful proposition only if you're going for weapon pots tbf

if you just want a copy and you're like 2 pulls off then go nuts

[icy remnant]

1:75 for Oroberyls
1:25 for Arsenal tickets
But Oroberyls cost 5000 per multi
And Arsenals 2000

[tight haven]

1980*

[icy remnant]

And weapons guarantee at 80 instead of 120

[drifting berry]

Kinda is Orignium to arsenal cost 79,2 per 10-pull, but from originium to orundum is 66,6.

84% efficiency basically. Tho there's also the pity being 80 so idk

[mortal trellis]

@icy remnant here's the calcs i have for a lowball on income

this inclused credit shop + weekly

[icy remnant]

Pity is 50% lower

You can’t just count per pull

[tight haven]

all of this goes back to "yes you get what you want at about a marginally better rate than industry alternatives but it feels terrible"

[icy remnant]

[drifting berry]

Yeah but also rate up is 50/50 and weapon banner is 75/25

[tight haven]

idk its like fruitless because one side is literally just telling the other "you shouldn't feel bad"

like the gacha feels awful! whaddya want

[icy remnant]

You don’t even count the rate up that’s weird
Just count 1% vs 0.4%

75/25 means nothing

[mortal trellis]

i explicitly stated that its fine to feel bad but its not fine to use that as justification to say the system is objectively bad

[icy remnant]

The weapon rate is 1%

[distant python]

I think if you care about weapon potentials then like, we are in whale territory and you can just go swipe the card and convert

[tight haven]

okay but like this is, respectfully, debatebro nonsense

[icy canyon]

speaking of, would it be worth to pick up a second stanza for 400 in the shop or just pray you get it soon (mainly so i dont have to keep swapping my single stanza between stanza users)

[mortal trellis]

???

[tight haven]

like when someone says it's "objectively bad" you should probably read that as them being hyperbolic and respond accordingly

[mortal trellis]

if we're not debating objectively then what's the point LMAO, thats literally just "no but MY feelings matter more"

[tight haven]

i've seen it happen too many times where someone takes up your position and ends up shadowboxing a point the other person didnt even really believe in because they just meant to say "this shit is ass dawg"

[icy remnant]

But yea seriously too many people treat the weapon banner rates as bad just cus it’s 25/75
it’s really not
It’s 1% overall with a guarantee at 80

[tight haven]

like its a public forum not the goddamn senate floor

its chill lol

[icy remnant]

Arsenal rolls are worth more than individual character rolls if you boil down to it aside from personal preferences if we compare it to getting the weapon/character being equal

4% with 75/25 is just 1%

[tight haven]

i understand im being kinda patronizing but i do hate to see people end up arguing against a point literally nobody actually believes in

just causes an endless argument and nobody likes it

[icy remnant]

So yea feel free to convert OP to Arsenal tickets
It’s been mathed out by them to have relative equal value when pulling because that’s literally what whales buy to pull

But that’s only if you truly feel weapons= operators

Which some people seem to do

[mortal trellis]

just because its a public forum doesn't make it some lawless land where you can just repeat the same negative rhetoric with no objective, constructive feedback behind it and only being fueled by your own feelings

[drifting berry]

Yeah I can agree with that when you mention it that way. Still I hold the orundum to arsenal tickets being kinda necessary.

[mortal trellis]

wait whered you hear that converting origeometry to arsenal tickets was a good idea

[tight haven]

im not asking you not to push back i am asking you to like

demonstrate awareness of the disconnect

[icy remnant]

Math

[tight haven]

its grating seeing people just get into an unceasing spat over literal Feels

[compact bridge]

Weapon < weapon + operator lol

[mortal trellis]

yeah but like can i see it is what im saying

[icy remnant]

IF you really want the weapon
And lets say you hit pity early
You don’t need to spam random rolls on characters
You can convert OP to Arsenal tickets and you are not losing value

[outer ermine]

man rossi just bruteforce mino b4 rage

[compact bridge]

I really want rossi sig

[mortal trellis]

my point is it shouldn't be brought up in the first place, the only purpose feels based arguments serve is to vindicate the person making them without actually generating anything productive

[tight haven]

[looks at the camera]

well. i suppose they shouldn't have done that.

[compact bridge]

But weapon is less than weapon + character

[mortal trellis]

if you want to complain about feels then you can vent about it in private, not in a public forum where its bound to receive strongly opposing feedback

especially if you're not suited up to respond to said feedback

[distant python]

I would like more 1 time sources of arsenal tickets in the story instead of always giving oroberyl

[tight haven]

what levi means is that if you're in a very specific situation where you have enough OP to guarantee the sig, you want the sig, but you got the op too early and you're a few rolls off - then it's fine to spend OP rather than throw pulls at more operator copies you might not want

[drifting berry]

Also we disregard "the makes you feel bad" like gacha games don't do it intentionally to make people do stupid decisions and spend more than they should. Not tageting it at anything in specific.

[tight haven]

especially when operator pots are so low-effect

[distant python]

Give people a boost in building out their weapon collection at the beginning

[drifting berry]

psychology and stuff idk

[tight haven]

like rossi's p1 is a less than 5% improvement on average from what i've heard

[mortal trellis]

feeling bad is like the whole point of something meant to be addicting

[tight haven]

it's pretty nutty

[mortal trellis]

the goal is to sell you a solution to not feel bad

[distant python]

You get potentials so you can look at the art in game and get the backgrounds

[mortal trellis]

it doesnt make any sense to use "but it feels bad" as an arguing point in any gacha game

[tight haven]

dude you are like

so debatepilled

idk.

[distant python]

I would rather have potentials be mostly cosmetic than have an E2 dhil moment

[timber harness]

Even if it isn't bad yet, I can imagine if there ever comes a point where weapons start becoming more and more mandatory all those "feels bad" mechanics will start mattering to a lot more people. With rossi specifically though its just reminding me how bad the weapon gacha is every time it comes into discussion even knowing I dont necessarily have to interact with the gacha yet. I'm sure low spenders on tangtang really didnt like hearing that weapon was a must lol

[mortal trellis]

wtf does debatepilled even mean

i can't even speak my mind anymore

[tight haven]

you occupy a very unique discursive like, character

[distant python]

Nah, I just use the BP weapon for tt

[distant python]

Me when I want to discuss something with nuance

[tight haven]

where you just either willingly or unwillingly cant seem to understand why youre frustrating people with this attitude of disregarding their emotional investment in the experiences they personally have

is what i mean

[distant python]

Instead of black and white feelings

[compact bridge]

Im at 60 pulls on tangtang sig, 0 pity on character pulls.. i think its still better to pull whatever char on 1.2 to get the arsenal... Heck im even considering to pull the standard banner lol

[dire warren]

which is better endmin with sig or P1 pog with sig on rossi team?

[timber harness]

yeah that's the feeling i got.

[distant python]

Emotions are a good place to start, something feels bad, but then we have to actually look at stuff rationally to figure out why

[mortal trellis]

and im saying if youre going to speak your emotionally invested points into a public space, then you should be the one prepared for whatever's coming back at you
its not my duty to tone it down because I dont want to frustate someone else who willingly brought themselves to a place where they can get frustrated by opposition

[tight haven]

[looks at the camera again]

i guess thats pretty true man

[tight haven]

i see it as people wanting to complain and i hold space for that especially because i know im frustrated with the goddamn weapon gacha

[mortal trellis]

wtv i just want to ask levi about their arsenal ticket calculations

[tight haven]

like i dont need to like

debate them out of feeling bad

they feel bad rn, i say go for it, im not here to demand a vanguardist attitude on how we should all feel abt the gacha

[distant python]

I don't, I want to understand what exactly feels soo bad about stuff and why you feel that way when I look at the alternatives

[tight haven]

i really wish we just had something like r1999's weapon system if we REALLY needed to have a weapon system to begin with

[timber harness]

I don't mind discussing this stuff but there's just something that screams "im a jerk-
off" when im just stating my opinion in passing and someone tries to stuff words in my mouth to defeat an imaginary argument i never had or get hyper aggro instantaneously over it

[pure spoke]

It feels bad if you are unlucky = bad gacha and eos

[icy remnant]

1 OP: 25 Arsenals
1 OP: 75 Oros
2000 Arsenals for a multi
5000 Oros for a multi
Pity for Arsenals: 80 , 1% rate up
Pity for Operator: 120, 0.4% rate up
Average pulls for weapons: 53
Average pulls for operator: 81

That means every OP= 1/540 operator
or 1/424 weapons

[mortal trellis]

i'm getting a 48% efficiency on just converting to oroberyls and then doing operator pulls, its 6.67 origeometry per operator pull (aka 13.33 origeometry per weapon pull through returns) and 7.98 origeometry per weapon pull
i genuinely dont see a reason to ever outright buy weapon pulls unless you value weapon pulls that high

[distant python]

I don't remember r1999s weapon system, I remember I like ash echoes weapons a lot but maybe that was just good rates and low pity

[mortal trellis]

what are you ❌ing

what does that mean

[icy remnant]

That’s the wrong way to view it

I put out the math

[tight haven]

r1999 basically didnt have a weapon gacha at all

you had to grind for weapons

[mortal trellis]

we're viewing it the same way though? all i'd have to do is divide my numbers by a constant

[timber harness]

it doesnt have a weapon gachas. all 6* weapons are farmable and thats pretty much it.

[tight haven]

yeah it felt way better

[timber harness]

I wouldnt really say its a r1999 system, since PGR also had it and pgr is older

[tight haven]

pgr did have a weapon gacha though

[compact bridge]

OP spent on character should also count how many extra arsenal it can get tbh

[distant python]

I played r1999 on release

[tight haven]

does have a weapon gacha*

[icy remnant]

You’re counting per pull for some reason when the average number of pulls needed is different for each banner

[distant python]

But I didn't like the actual combat that much after a while

Also time stories can get

[mortal trellis]

you also have to consider pulls returns only taking place for operator pulls, if you add that 11% then it bumps everything up

[distant python]

Very confusing

[timber harness]

oh wait. thinking of another system mb

[tight haven]

it's barely a weapon gacha mind, but you do only get weapons via the gacha unless the devs explicitly make said weapon farmable (which they do on occasion)

[tight haven]

i associate it most with r1999 because i do think they did it the best but yea

its older than they are

[icy remnant]

I’ll paste it here again
Yes you can add the Arsenal tickets refund for operators and the math still works

1 OP: 25 Arsenals
1 OP: 75 Oros
2000 Arsenals for a multi
5000 Oros for a multi
Pity for Arsenals: 80 , 1% rate up
Pity for Operator: 120, 0.4% rate up
Average pulls for weapons: 53
Average pulls for operator: 81

That means every OP= 1/540 operator
or 1/424 weapons

[timber harness]

Im mainly confusing it because stigmatas in honkai impact were gacha which was the worst thing to ever exist

then pgr made the memory system farmable

think thats where i confused my comparison

[icy remnant]

It’s purposely meant to be confusing and to push people the spend pulls on operators to get Arsenal tickets
But when you math it out it’s actually slightly better to directly convert OP to Arsenal tickets if you truly want the weapon and are short on it
But of course I still won’t recommend mass directly converting unless you are actually short because people tend to value operators more

But the truth is if you’re “lucky” and got the operator too early and want the weapon

You are not getting a bad deal directly converting

[mortal trellis]

ok how about this, i'll list everything out in averages
you need 48888 oroberyls to guarantee an operator, that's 651.84 origeometry
doing those 120 pulls (+ 10 from urgent recruitment), you'll get 10120.23 arsenal tickets
for the same amount of origeometry, you'd get 16296.14 arsenal tickets, an increase of 6175.91 arsenal tickets
you sacrifice 48888 oroberyls in return for 6175.91 arsenal tickets over the course of converting enough origeometry to guarantee an operator
I personally dont think there's a world out there where that is worth it, unless you value arsenal tickets that greatly

[tight haven]

oh dear god yes

hi3's gacha was one of the first that just made me drop a game

so needlessly confusing and stigmatas seemed miserable to complete a set for when i played

[compact bridge]

Where is the math on arsenal refund tho? 1/540 character is just half the story

[tight haven]

dupes were far too powerful

[icy remnant]

11%

[timber harness]

no guarantee for stigmatas but guarantee for weapon.

i got the sig weapon for flamscion like 5 times and never got the top piece for her sitgmata set after 300 bucks. so she was still gimped with no guarantee

dropped the game that day lol

[tight haven]

herrscher of the void was my quit point

just such a frustrating experience for character i was really waiting for

i do still think r1999 had the platonic ideal for a gacha system in my view

[cobalt basin]

what is this based off? average of doing which pull strategy? always 60 per banner, or always until you get the rate-up operator?

[green otter]

Wanna ask, how good is rossi-wulf/ake-pog/edmin-perlica as gil-less team?

[tight haven]

feels awesome to pull on, farming for progression didnt feel like picking away at a diamond mountain

[tight haven]

decent enough, you would rather use wulf+endmin+perlica

pog > endmin for overworld

[timber harness]

tbf it kind of needs to be that way otherwise youd feel pressured on spending for units that actually need to be on a team for the team to be functional half of the time. It's not always just a damage drop off or something negligible. I couldnt imagine running burn without marsha or isolde.

[tight haven]

oh yeah no im not defending any other part of r1999 i quit for a reason lol

[cobalt basin]

weapon banners has warped minds since genshin, and HSR definitely popularized that weapon/dupe is worth closely to a whole new character, sadly actual E1 E2 S1 merchants - sad state for gacha monetization rn but at least the games are good b

[tight haven]

the most powercreep in a game with content that never ever caught up

[distant python]

What if we just like

Didn't powecreep

[tight haven]

well

we kind of are doing that

right now

if you pulled laev youre still set for life

[drifting berry]

It does, though. Yes, every gacha game uses psychological tactics, but there are different degrees to how aggressively they push those systems to put players into losing situations.

The “feeling bad” isn’t the main argument, it’s just a byproduct of those tactics working as intended. Which is why I consider the "makes you feel bad" worth mentioning.

[distant python]

I want variety creep

[tight haven]

we do have that!

[drifting berry]

And leaving it like that, just tired

[tight haven]

rossi is a breath of fresh air

[distant python]

I actually don't mind bosses shilling a certain character, as long as you can still clear them with old teams without needing silly investment

[tight haven]

same

[distant python]

Current umbral stage 3

Good design

[tight haven]

i think most people feel that way

[distant python]

Current umbral 3 is Rossi shill

[tight haven]

like what i hate is when mechanics punish you for not using a certain team

rather than just making a certain team easy mode for that stage

[distant python]

But any team that is arts based works on it also

[icy remnant]

Physical works too cus you can just stagger the enrage

[distant python]

Tbf umbral 3 kinda punishes full physical unless you are invested

[icy remnant]

You stagger before the animation of first enrage and then full stagger right after he consumes his heat stacks

And he just dies

P0 6 stars kills him

[distant python]

Depends on investment

[cobalt basin]

so every team...? and physical can just slot in a lv40 estella and get free lifts/susceptibility i guess last rite hates this

[distant python]

Yvonne kinda hates it, can't get ult gen

[tight haven]

yeah this is true

i dont super hate that though

[green otter]

I see, also might wanna ask, there are some people recommending to do frost infliction instead of burn infliction on rossi team and would like to ask if thats better or not?

[tight haven]

its still feasibly with phys

[cobalt basin]

aah i don't have yvonne, good to know

[tight haven]

you just then have to bring someone to clear the stacks

[distant python]

But like I swapped endmin for tt in my Phys team and cleared it easily after doing that

Ye

[tight haven]

this seems to be a meme team

[distant python]

The mode forced me to run a non standard team which I think is fun

[icy remnant]

It doesn’t really matter after that assuming your characters already are decently invested and you played the rotation properly
At worst the boss would be like 25%hp left?
Just kill him lol

[tight haven]

like, you can do it and it works, but its for fun rather than for effectiveness

[distant python]

Ember on my team

I don't speed kill stuff

[icy remnant]

[cobalt basin]

doesn't matter if it's cryo or heat gotta look at the support's whole kit instead

[distant python]

My lifeng is on chimeric justice

[icy remnant]

Chimeric justice works

That’s the weapon used

[distant python]

How much essence investment?

[icy remnant]

You use Chimeric justice and Xiranite set

[distant python]

Overall

[icy remnant]

Maxed out Endmin at least
Chen can be like 443 sundering I guess?

[distant python]

Yeah I don't have that

My closest essence to max is 6/3/3 on ember

[cobalt basin]

well time to slot in estella and enjoy

[peak void]

Id say maxed sundering is also worth

[distant python]

I decided to build more teams instead of farming essences

[distant python]

I used TT instead

[icy remnant]

I’m gonna drop sundering for GM soon

Next BP

[peak void]

lifeng can stay 443 tho

i already have maxed sundering so i have to suffer sunk cost lol

[icy remnant]

I mean it’s still just a few days of sanity

11 days

[cobalt basin]

I guess anything works, estella is just more synergical but the stage is easy enough

[peak void]

that is a LOT of days my guy

[distant python]

I took home longing for this bp

[icy remnant]

you can get Valiant for LiFeng and give Valiant that essence

[green otter]

I see, there was also one person in #team-build who said putting someone who eat physical stacks isnt needed in rossi team

[distant python]

Yeah, my issue was just dying to being hit if I didn't run ember, and not being able to clear stacks on full physical team

[icy remnant]

It isn’t needed

[distant python]

It's not needed, but it is kinda a waste

[icy remnant]

Rossi Gilberta Perlica Akekuri is already a good team

In fact it can one shot Rhodagn

[mortal trellis]

I wouldn't be opposed to it in extreme cases, but endfield's math is objectively normal at worst. I take issue with people who DO use "feeling bad" as the main argument, I dont think we'd disagree on that.

[green otter]

Even on an gil-less team?

[cobalt basin]

which arts rossi team can't though?

[icy remnant]

Without Gilberta you’ll be tilted more towards a physical team I assume
So it’ll probably be needed

[drifting berry]

Yeah can agree on that, the physiological part should be a supporting argument at least on this game.

[distant python]

What team would you be running then

[icy remnant]

Feeling bad is never an argument that supports whether we get sufficient resources or not because that’s tuned out by math and math has no feelings

But it does make it so you can be more aware

[green otter]

Trying to run with this since it was somewhat common team building advice based on what i searched on rossi teambuilding with some variation on 4th slot

[distant python]

We should get 1 time arsenal tickets during the story to balance out the beginner banner for standard characters so we can geta standard sig

[tight haven]

theyre not needed no

[icy remnant]

[tight haven]

the best teams appear to have one though

usually endmin or dapan

pog is fine for comfort though

[icy remnant]

Anyways there’s a lot of Arsenal tickets in credit shop I recommend people to try get it if they are willing to put in the effort

It’s like 1000+ per month

[sterile moat]

The best whale teams just run arts nuke

[icy remnant]

With BP that’s a passive 3000 Arsenal tickets a month not counting weeklies or events

[distant python]

Paid or free bp

[icy remnant]

Paid

[distant python]

Yeah let's ignore that then

[tight haven]

those are for short timeline speedruns no?

[icy remnant]

If free you want the credit shop even more

[tight haven]

on like rhodagn and junk

[distant python]

I once got 80 in 1 day

[cobalt basin]

Feling bad is fine, but when there's an objective argument to be had and you can't see past why it feels bad afterwards, it just invites criticism.

Especially in gacha games where nothing is in a vacuum and you should always compare stuff to other games, sadly. But you can at least note down why things feels bad, like expiring tickets and guarantee/pity resetting are valid concerns

[distant python]

We minmaxxing this shit

[sterile moat]

They work even on the agony umbrals

[outer ermine]

they work everywhere cuz bosses are a joke

[tight haven]

yeah true

[outer ermine]

if it works on rhod itll work on umbral

[icy remnant]

Multi phase bosses would mean arts burst loses value

[tight haven]

rossi has 1000 teams or whatever because this game is not a real game yet

[icy remnant]

Anyone tried Rossi for Triag

[distant python]

Yeah but it's still speedruns because of investments, the question is whether the team works if you do all the same rotations but with lower numbers

[dry kindle]

Wut

Still wut

[cobalt basin]

heat bot

[dry kindle]

Wulf doesn't consume inflicts

[tight haven]

you dont use wulfs enhanced bskill (usually)

[dry kindle]

Because 3 stacks for 100 sp

[tight haven]

you only use it when you have clannibal on him

[icy remnant]

There’s no “why not”
You can literally run Rossi with almost everyone and try to see what works

Akekuri is a good team mate too

[cobalt basin]

yeah I don't prefer wulf over akekuri as well, personally only argument for him is in a phys rossi team imo

[tight haven]

ake+wulf+pog/gilb is something i ran and it went just fine

[icy remnant]

No

Her Ult is Arts

[cobalt basin]

phys rossi relies on CS the most, which link doesn't buff

[icy remnant]

Her combo skill has crazy multipliers that do Phys but doesn’t consume link

That’s what you’ll focus on for Phys

Though I think her best teams are either hybrid or arts

[distant python]

Rossi still does most of her damage through ult regardless of team no?

[green otter]

I see, i dont really have clannibal for wulf, and only using fortmaker on pog/edmin's sig weapon on edmin, would that be fine in rossi gill-less team?

[distant python]

Rossi, pog, ake, endmin is a decent team

[cobalt basin]

highest multiplier sure, but in a phys team it's not buffed by any means besides combustion passive i guess

[distant python]

Rossi self buffs with claw mark

[tight haven]

should be fine. you can run obj velocitous on pog and put a +ult efficiency essence on it

[icy remnant]

Her combo skill deals more damage depending on infliction stacks up to 1170%
For reference her Ult is 1600%

[thorn shore]

the doc team does say use clannibal

[tight haven]

you can really run without clan its fine

clan is not worth going after

[thorn shore]

but yeah he never consumes just doesnt apply i think

[tight haven]

if you have it lying around then great

[cobalt basin]

CS scales off arts infliction stacks, wulfgard applies more with less SP that's it

[compact bridge]

Rossi is like 50% heat + 50% physical

[thorn shore]

its the weekly rotation rn ez purchase

[dry kindle]

😭

[tight haven]

brick your account for the low low price of 2400 arsenal

[icy remnant]

Okay it’s 1170%

Her combo skill multiplier w max inflictions

[cobalt basin]

I still wouldn't consider him to be good, just.. "better" than akekuri in that one specific team

[icy remnant]

If in theory we can get a character that can inflict a lot of inflictions for cheap and apply combustion

Incoming Mifu

If there’s more than 1 they react

[peak void]

if theres less than 1 theres no infliction

hope this helps

[green otter]

So rossi+wulf+edmin/pog+perlica i should work towards?

[noble tapir]

How important is artificing Gilberta's arts intensity if you're running hotworks+sig for Yvonne/tt/xaihi/gilb?

[distant python]

I want a character that consumes phys status to apply inflictions

So they can loop with rossi

[tight haven]

which ops do you already have raised

can you post them

[cobalt basin]

wait a minute that's gilberta's ult

but now on a CS pls 🙏

[tight haven]

if youre aiming to make rossi baseline competent then the bar is low and a lot of ops work

if you love rossi and want her best non-whale non-gilb team then that works

[distant python]

Wait you are right, why the hell am I running a phys consumer if using Gil with Rossi then

[cobalt basin]

for the vuln overflow if it goes beyond 1 rotation I guess? which never happens in current content

[distant python]

New plan, Gil, Rossi, Ake, ember

Now I have to build Ake though

[distant python]

Won't even do that cause Gil builds insane ult regen

Just ult on Gil again lol

[cobalt basin]

[green otter]

Heres my current stuff, will get rossi tomorrow from free pull

[cobalt basin]

energy gain rossi for long fights or multiphase bosses?

sounds kinda sick

[distant python]

Rossi build uge chest already no?

+7% from Gil passive

[tight haven]

dont use wulf hes not p5

you could use like...

[cobalt basin]

i haven't seen how fast rossi gets ult without P4 ngl, maybe it does catch up to gil's fast ult

[noble tapir]

How important is artificing Gilberta's arts intensity if you're running hotworks+sig for Yvonne/tt/xaihi/gilb? I know it's not a rossi question guys, I'm sorry

[tight haven]

ugh actually no

wulf still works huh

[tight haven]

endmin ake wulf rossi?

[distant python]

Probably doesn't, but it's still a damage boost for ember skill which I will be using for vulnerable stacks with Rossi for the next Gil ult

[tight haven]

you're gonna want that wulf p5 soon though

[cobalt basin]

I don't play tt so i ignored this before, but it only affects the corossion 😭 no idea how good it actually is since usually it's just 1 hot works aux unit right? 🫠

[distant python]

Can probably get 2 Gil ults to 1 Rossi ult

[dry kindle]

Where's mine mf

[tight haven]

here: ||||

[cobalt basin]

that'd be sick

[green otter]

Wulf p5 is mandatory for him to be slot in rossi team?

[tight haven]

no not mandatory sorry

[distant python]

I think my Gil is like over 100% uge

[tight haven]

but he feels much worse without it

his p5 is very very powerful

[distant python]

And I will be using Gil skill

[tight haven]

massively speeds up rotations

[noble tapir]

It's full 3 piece hot works, gloves and 2 gear all with arts intensity

[cobalt basin]

full xiranite with redeemer chest goes brrrr

[noble tapir]

That's what's on Iana's doc rn anyway

[cobalt basin]

ah I have no idea too

[distant python]

I would need to build Ake and farm a better Gil essence though, and I'm broke

[noble tapir]

I'm sure Iana will show up eventually, I can just ask then I suppose

[icy remnant]

I hope Mifu straight up replaces Wulfgard

[green otter]

I see, so i would run wulf+ake for awhile till i get him p5?

[noble tapir]

Same but for Laev

[cold bane]

so is rossi worth without gil?

[compact bridge]

Yeah

[tight haven]

yep

supplements your heat unflicts

[outer ermine]

just saw someone playing a diff endgame

photos

[alpine crest]

rossi is so flexible, this build somehow works, and it does pretty good damage

[sterile moat]

People are quite creative with it...

https://youtu.be/XBbRhoAh-90?si=U67kTKwWg1kYCRsy

[green otter]

I see, how about the weapons for wulf, ake, and edmin

[tight haven]

wulf can use whatever if you dont have clan

wedge is a close second and if you dont have that then velocitous for the ult gen

ake uses thermite ideally

endmin uses grand vision

eminent repute is okay but dont build it if you havent already

[terse valley]

I did not want to see and hear this

[outer ermine]

im watching the original creator rn

[sterile moat]

[green otter]

Sadly no thermite, i still can get wedge from the 2nd selector i havent use

[cold bane]

i can use ember instead of gil? nice

[tight haven]

i wouldnt pick up wedge from it

[sterile moat]

Did anyone test if slab is better with a whale rossi

[tight haven]

just slap whatever gun on him and let him sit there for inflictions

dont raise the gun

wulf will just be an infliction bot

[green otter]

So dont use this selector on wedge? Also what do i use on ake if dont have thermal?

[icy remnant]

Detonation unit box

[tight haven]

id hold it

you dont need anything there yet

wulfs damage contribution isnt significant enough with wedge to warrant it imo

[proud vector]

tfw

Chinabros doing Tangtang Rossi unironically

Simply put phys statuses just aren’t it? Just Tangtang damage and incidentally build up stacks and gilb ult > double burst explode things or something

Wild…

[green otter]

So just use OBJ Velocitous on wulf and fortmaker on aka as 5 star alternatives?

[icy remnant]

TangTang is just cracked

[twilit quail]

the logic is just that the phys resource spenders are scrubs(which is true)

[alpine crest]

Its not as good as gil, but it works

[twilit quail]

and that if we simply use good units

it will be better

and it kind of is

unit with crush is almost being outdmged by chen

so like

you know

anyway mi fu will save rossi

[tight haven]

yeah thats fine

dont invest in either

[proud vector]

Can’t believe Rossi will get between the cop and criminal pairing

[twilit quail]

it's just so cringe because there is no remotely difficult content

so it becomes

INFINITELY harder

[green otter]

Iean fortmaker is already built since pog was using it

[twilit quail]

to distil these sorts of things

[green otter]

I think atleast ome youtuber said there was a test server

[tight haven]

yeah

[twilit quail]

so anyone can do some shitty excel

and the effort it takes to definitely conclude

[tight haven]

again rossi only has 1000 teams because endfield is a fake ass game

[twilit quail]

that whatever they are saying is bad

is wayyyy more than it takes to produce whatever the fuck it is

if this game even had like

WW holograms

everything would have been 10x better

in this aspect

[proud vector]

lv 200 rhod

[twilit quail]

dogshit video is everywhere on every platform

[proud vector]

wonder how things change if you shoot Gilberta in the head

Not everyone has her after all

[twilit quail]

rossi found six feet under

[proud vector]

That bad huh?

[cobalt basin]

thoughts on rossi avywenna perlica gilberta? can avy do more damage than idk akekuri link?

[icy remnant]

What is this Eminent repute Endmin slander

[twilit quail]

so avy gil is good because of extended corro

if you cant do that

it's like

what is the point

[cobalt basin]

i guess so

no 4 stacks corro

[twilit quail]

might as well put tt

in avy's place

[cobalt basin]

i just wanna run avy but rossi's yoinking all her teammates unfortunate for my girl

[icy remnant]

Rossi can yoink everyone

[mortal trellis]

does anyone know if there's a delay between rossi consuming arts inf stacks and applying vuln stacks on her cs2?

this stupid teensy weensy is pissing me off

[ocean turret]

the vuln stack show up the moment she lands on the floor

[digital nova]

guys when is it ideal to use my pogs ult? before i breach? before i crush with endmin? before i start my rotations? or whenever

[ocean turret]

pog bs- pog ult - pog cs

[digital nova]

gotcha thanks

[proud vector]

Yes there is a delay between the two, which you can unfortunately dash cancel and lose vulns to

Or cancel willingly to miss 2 vulns (lol)

[mortal trellis]

so this rot is just chopped and chud because i trigger gibby ult on 2 vuln stacks even with fram perfect timings?

[proud vector]

Oh yeah

[mortal trellis]

(disregard the shit damage i'm just testing)

[proud vector]

Gilb snapshots vuln stacks on cast

[mortal trellis]

wtf

thats actually so ass

[proud vector]

sorry bub

[mortal trellis]

its not when the effect actually gets applied?

[proud vector]

explodes your timeline

Yeah, you can cast it and crush it and it will be full effectiveness

[mortal trellis]

i mean if it were up to my timeline, i should have like 0.5s of leeway

but in practice it feels more like 0.05s

if not less

[proud vector]

But in your case you can stack before it hits and it will still be half effectiveness

[mortal trellis]

yeah i cant do that with my current rot

i'd just have to start from scratch

[proud vector]

pat pat

You’ll get there

[mortal trellis]

get where

[proud vector]

to R o t a t i o n

[mortal trellis]

i haven't looked at public rots online yet so i was planning on settling for something I'm happy with first before comparing

im scared im gonna look at a rot online and its the same as mine

[noble tapir]

Wait what changed to make Chiv better than det for Xaihi in premium yvonne teams?

[ocean turret]

youre too fast bro, you didnt even let rossi land her 2nd cs before popping gil's ult

[mortal trellis]

its because gibby's ult has a delay on when it lands (or so i was told)

lemme find the TL

pog ult generates sp
wulf ult applies combustion

1. proc gibby skill to apply first vuln stack
2. use wulf bs consumes combustion to proc clannibal
   rossi bs applies second vuln stack
   wulfgard bs applies heat infliction (can also be gibby skill, wulfgard is just faster + refunds sp)
3. procs rossi cs1 to prepare cs2
4. procs wulf cs to apply heat infliction, save this for later
   rossi cs2 window appears, use rossi cs2 and wulf cs in quick succession
   halfway through rossi cs2 animation, use gibby ult
5. heat infliction from second wulf bs is consumed by rossi cs2 for third and fourth vuln stacks
   (pog shieldguards proc thermite and proc frontier & rossi cs2 self-buffs cr and cd)
6. gibby ult lands on four stacks of vuln to proc stanza, proc xiranite, and proc arts susc
7. wulf cs procs combustion
   rossi ult for nuke

[ocean turret]

rossi's animation before gil's ult

[mortal trellis]

yes but it lands first

thats why i was asking if her vuln stacks apply after her arts inf consumption

which it does

if you watch the video it happens in like a few frames

[dry kindle]

What's the issue again

[mortal trellis]

first rossi cs2 hits, heat inf is consumed
then gibby ult hits, triggering arts susc at 2 stacks and applying nature inf
THEN rossi cs2 applies 2 vuln, making it 4 stacks (i thought this would happen before gibby ult)
then wulf cs hits, triggering combustion

[dry kindle]

[mortal trellis]

the order ended up being 1 3 2 4 instead of the 1 2 3 4 i expected

[mortal trellis]

rossi is being annoying

[compact bridge]

Yes there is a delay on her consuming infliction, thanks to that its kinda possible to run laeva with rossi

[dry kindle]

The actual issue mf

[ocean turret]

she havent consumed yet because she didnt finish her cs animation. her feet is still on land( no lift happened) when the ult activated

[proud vector]

Honestly

If you aren’t going to be using vuln that much outside of like the initial setup

[mortal trellis]

i'm not talking abt delay on consumption (idk if there is or not and it doesn't impact this scenario), i care about the delay between arts inf consumption and application of vuln

[mortal trellis]

she hits first

[proud vector]

Why let Rossi consume infliction if it can go elsewhere?

[dry kindle]

I'm lost

[mortal trellis]

then gibby hits after

[mortal trellis]

so she can get up to 4 stacks

without it i only get 3

p0 gibby gaming

[compact bridge]

Do you have any particular relevant situation?

[proud vector]

Yeah ig this is for second rotation

[ocean turret]

yeah but not lift, her feet is still on land

[mortal trellis]

uh the clip i posted about, thats about it

[mortal trellis]

yes but her first hit is what consumes arts infliction

i assumed it was also the hit that applies vuln

but it isn't, that's a separate hit that happens a few frames later

thats all i was confused about