theorycrafting

[summer flower]

3 If there was no cr calc

[lost void]

I mean it's even the make or break for world's first on games like WoW since every expac new content their stats ge recalculated and have to get gears that would make to reach the ideal crit rate/chance due to the new ceiling.

[indigo pine]

its a bit more than that

you need to run simulations

[summer flower]

You don't need

Unless you go with expected not average

Right?

[drifting quest]

EV is pretty complex math stuff as well

if you do it 'properly'

[lost void]

It can be done if you correctly supplied the actual board damage.

Because if one will just rely on the tooltip then it's not the actual/accurate damage

[indigo pine]

if you wanted to like accurately show what the value of crit would be on bursty teams like last rite vs one with a lot of smaller hits like tangtang, you would run many simulations so you can plot a graph for it and show some stats like "when comparing the top 10% lucky runs vs the average crit value, the difference is xyz"

[drifting quest]

someone will make an endfield mc sim eventually

surely

[manic blade]

does tangtang want the cskill or ult gain body

[echo cove]

Eventually kekw

[indigo pine]

there's like 3 people i know of including myself who all have some sort of damage calc cooking

[drifting quest]

uge if the rot requires it

depends on build if it doesnt but usually its cryo% bonekrusha body

monika guoba lin LP you

who else

[summer flower]

Average DMG I think it does work for teams if it's shown with no crit damage

[lost void]

for example tang tang batk has 5 hits but the calculation is only Σ of every board dmg per Batk seq

[summer flower]

Although do we even know how crit behaves?

[lost void]

it acts normally since there's no crit resist yet or even evasion or hit chance modifier

[summer flower]

Not my question

[lost void]

You use the usual formula since there is no crit resist yet or hit rate debuff/modifier or even evasion/miss chances

[summer flower]

I'm not talking about that even

[outer ermine]

m&m

[drifting quest]

Expectation is Pseudorandomness because it's the most cost effective, potentially Hardware RNG but hard to imagine it on a relevant scale

[drifting quest]

ah yeah seen theirs, thats my bad

[lost void]

Just have a random seed generator working on your datasheet.

[vapid flame]

unlike WoW the fights are too short, you don't hit hundreds of basic attacks, and critting on your big nukes has disproportionate effect so crit calculations can mislead...better for someone to sim and assume crit fish for ults or whatever scenario you want

[summer flower]

Question is is it adjusted psuedo random like in Dota or not

[lost void]

But the concept still applies be it a 1 min fight, 3 mins, 5 mins, 10 mins, 1 hr fight. It still relies on the battle log.

[summer flower]

One could math expected crits and round down to integer

[vapid flame]

yes math is always true, but is the number going to be useful for you is the question

[summer flower]

If damage instance happens once but your Cr is 25% it won't be counted

[lost void]

why use int, not float

[drifting quest]

most likely several unique random seeds which are cycled through at whatever intervals they choose, with the entire subsequent rng string reused for various rng qualities that can be shared

[summer flower]

You should not count on Crit when it's 5% chance to happen

And it's checked once

Unless you crit fishing

Which means you gonna want different math

[lost void]

For precision and accuracy you don't round off to int as every decimal value counts.

[rapid heron]

Also i want to give everyone a warning
there is a misinformation video about what set to use for TangTang which show MI tehc is best
It;s incorrect
FInal compairsion between Bonecrusher and MI Tech is as follow. 1.15ATK x 1.025CritMultiplier VS 1.05ATK x 1.075CritMultiplier . We have a result of 1.17875 for Bonecrusher VS 1.12875 FOr MI Security set. So Bonecrusher still beat out MI Security without the Battle skill BOnus from the set at max stack.
im working on full details video atm so this is the final result
so DONT waste your resources to artifce your MI Security for TangTang

[summer flower]

Round down times crit happens

[summer flower]

Attributes being wrong right?

[urban plaza]

it's crazy how there are like 4 completely different TT sets out there and all claim to be THE BEST

[lost void]

But there will be a huge discrepancy if you round off x.5 value and make it to +1 instead

[gritty briar]

i mean i guess if you want to please almost everyone, you'd run simulations and display top 1% luckiest/unluckiest runs, top 10%, etc
and then people could choose if they care about consistency or chasing the big numbers on the outliers

[urban plaza]

so either something very wrong or people use way different rotations

[gritty briar]

but this would be work

[summer flower]

Wait

Is attack multiplier correct?

[rapid heron]

Bone crusher give 15% ATK

[summer flower]

Mi set

[rapid heron]

and MI security is 5% at max stack

[summer flower]

One

It's 5% per stack

[drifting quest]

yeah the crit tang video has been making the rounds but its well known to be worse

[summer flower]

I would expect more than single stack all time for tang tang

[gritty briar]

mi is 5% per stack of atk for a total of +25% atk
the 5% at max stat is crit rate

[rapid heron]

oh i missed the tsacks part

[sterile patrol]

crit cope will never die

[rapid heron]

but it still worsde than bonecrusher

[lost void]

It's pretty easiy for her to reach 5 stack and maintain it particularly from her Batk seq 3 alone. She can just fill in Batks to keep 5 stack maintained.

[rapid heron]

if you countign the 60% BS

[summer flower]

Re do math

It's probably worse but do it again

[drifting quest]

crit perlica has done irrepairable damage to the average player

[gritty briar]

yeah that's a pretty big thing to miss

[summer flower]

I would expect average stack count be less than 5 but more than 1

[rapid heron]

yeah

[summer flower]

For that build

[lost void]

See how many hits her 3rd BA are.

[summer flower]

Wait what

What is that

How many instances is This wtf

[lost void]

That's all the hits she can do with a complete 5 BAtk seq

[summer flower]

Wait how it looks on end axis?

[glass birch]

7 hits

[gritty briar]

even if you drop it, i wonder how long on average it takes to build it up again on TT

[chilly bolt]

Now fight with more than 1 enemy, it'll be even funnier

[glass birch]

3 in the first, 4 in the 2nd

[rapid heron]

how much DMG contribution for TangTang is her BS again?

[summer flower]

One enemy cause rhogodan

[summer flower]

Someone was complaining on loss of BS attack of 50% like it was 100% her damage

[chilly bolt]

From prydw*n

[lost void]

BAtk seq 1 = 1 hit
Batk seq 2 = 2 hits
Batk seq 3 = ???
Batk seq 4 = 3 hits
final atk = 1

[summer flower]

Now question is that water thingy counted as bs damage.

[rapid heron]

ty

[lost void]

Wait let me record BS hitting 1 enemy. It will depend how big the target is cause if target is small it would take lesser hits.

[gritty briar]

another question is what proportion of these battle skills are actually affected by bonecrusha set. You don't have 100% uptime on the set effect right?

[rapid heron]

so Bonecrusher set give 60% more BS bonus there for if her BS dela 53% her total DMG that is 53%*60? right? for total DMG increase

[lost void]

BS has set effect down time, it's the set relying on CS right?

Standard T rotation use 2x CS before using the set bonus damage amf for BS.

[edgy crater]

is it accurate or not lol

[summer flower]

Can you show crit set no crit rate how look your stack count?

[edgy crater]

prywden always questionable

[summer flower]

Is it naked?

[gritty briar]

does it make sense to assume bonecrusha set effect is buffing literally all of her BS uses like this?

[summer flower]

Or after putting 2 or 4 pieces with battle skill damage?

[lost void]

I don't have any MI set though

[chilly bolt]

Without any other dmg% yeah maybe

[rapid heron]

you always use her BS skill after 2 stack anyway

[summer flower]

Ohh :(

[rapid heron]

cause same for MI tehc set

you are assuming the stack always up and no downtime

[gritty briar]

if that's what the rotation is, fair enough. I haven't used her

[summer flower]

Can we get no crit piece crit rate set stacks average?

For tang tang?

[rapid heron]

what you mean average no crit ?

[summer flower]

Average crit set attack% stacks while having no crit pieces equipped

[lost void]

This is the stat sheet I have on her though

[gritty briar]

this sounds absurdly hard to do precisely.
The stack uptime is gonna change a lot depending on when it falls off. Like if it falls off right before a big amount of multihits, it'll likely just come back.
Plus the fact that your crit rate changes when you hit 5 stacks, making it easier to maintain, idk how this would be calculated. Just has to be simulated

[hasty grail]

Dont forget you have to reach 5 stacks before getting the extra crit rate to help maintain it so you could lose alot of damage from your first bskill/ult if you cant reach 5 before it

[lost void]

She has no problem reaching 50% crit chance with a crit set though... Since set bonus is already matic +10% when activated.

[rapid heron]

you losing out on everything

main stats cryo and BS dmg

[summer flower]

In video it seems average is higher than 3

[gritty briar]

There's gonna be so much deviation. Stack maintenance is gonna depend on number of hits, time, and whether you're at 5 stacks already, and these change throughout the fight.

[summer flower]

Record run, count seconds on each state

There is gonna be deviation anyway

[gritty briar]

yeah i think you'd either simulate or manually run trials over and over and find an average

[summer flower]

Single run should be okay

[lost void]

This is why MI can be ideal on Tang as well since she has multiple sources of per hit instances.
BAtk, BS, ult.

[summer flower]

Very unlikely you gonna get outlier in single attempt

Batk having so many hits is like....

What is that?

O.O

[lost void]

here is BS hits with 0 whirlpool and +1

[gritty briar]

well i'm kind of leaning towards the idea of it not being that hard to maintain most of the time

[summer flower]

So yea attack % between 15% and 20%

[chilly bolt]

Man doesn't know ardelia basic

[summer flower]

If not Between 20% and 25%

[summer flower]

?

[outer ermine]

ba3 and finisher

[drifting berry]

see, he doesn't know

[summer flower]

How many it got?

[chilly bolt]

Idk, a lot

[lost void]

last his probably got 5-7

[drifting berry]

idk either

[chilly bolt]

And you get a mr dolly for fs

[lost void]

ulti probably got like 50+ hits if all hit hehe but only possible if you're at point blank range and target ia ginormous.

[glass birch]

a true Gacha Ult

[summer flower]

End axis doesn't show that

[lost void]

but skill description/multiplier is per hit, so total damage depends on how many did a target receives for the entire ult.

[summer flower]

End axis shows 13 hits for tang tang batks

[lost void]

see.

[summer flower]

And i think it's misleading

Or is it correct?

Wait

[lost void]

let's assume BAtk seq 3 is 7 hits:
Batk 1 = 1
Batk 2= 2
Batk 3=7
Batk 4=3
Batk5=1

I'd say somewhere along 13-15

[summer flower]

And all that within time frame of security

10%*13 > 1

[lost void]

assuming you do full Batk seq and don't skip/anim cancel

[summer flower]

So yea.. explains a lot

[glass birch]

Oh wait

Holy shit

Its not 7 hits

LOL

[summer flower]

Yea, there was posted video how many hits it does

[lost void]

She has fast Batk sequence too

[glass birch]

Its 5 hits before the final

And thats before the last part of Seq 3

[gritty briar]

that is not how you calculate the likelyhood of a getting a crit within 13 hits though

[summer flower]

Then how?

Ohh right you wanna that more complicated one

[lost void]

It is per hit

[rapid heron]

MI security will be 1.25ATK * (1+1.17BSmultiplierx0.53+0.115Cryo)* AverageCritMultiplier

and Bonecrusher is 1.15ATK(1+1.77BSMultiplierx0.53+ 0.115Cryo)* AverageCrit Multiplier

[glass birch]

So Seq3 is 9 hits total

[summer flower]

74%

[rapid heron]

can someoen double chekc my math for this pls

[summer flower]

If you get to full stacks it's then 87% right?

[rapid heron]

87?

[summer flower]

Not taking into account that it's 4/5 sec

Maybe common number?

[gritty briar]

yeah you beat me to it

[lost void]

That is if T has 10% crit chance right?

[gritty briar]

yeah

[summer flower]

Wait no

It's 14 hits

And within 5 sec it's 17 because first stage of next one

Goes to 93%

[lost void]

Btw Yvonne also has skills having multi hit aside from her ulti right? Her ice grenade does multi hit too or just 1 instance?

[summer flower]

At max stacks

[glass birch]

bs is 1 hit, combo is 4 hits (at p0, 6 at P1)

[summer flower]

Wait isn't there crit and attack food?

[lost void]

Did my clip recording for BS uploaded?

[glass birch]

yeah Ginseng Meat Stew. 180 flat atk and 11% CR

[summer flower]

99.4%

At full stacks

[lost void]

Is that Mi set already?

[summer flower]

Okay funny

Mi set, no crit items

[lost void]

What set pcs. she using?

[summer flower]

So probably mi set and slab?

[summer flower]

Ones that fit her attributes

Wait for someone

I don't have tang tang

[lost void]

These?

[summer flower]

Not those for sure

[lost void]

Or the one with +cryo?

[summer flower]

Ehh... Gib me sec

[glass birch]

MI Sec Scope(BS DMG%), MI Sec gloves(BS DMG%), MI Sec Overalls T2 (BS DMG%), slab?

Scope is Agi/str, gloves is agi/str, chest is will/agi, and then slab for the 26.9% main stat?

[lost void]

So pumping BS dmg?

[glass birch]

Kinda low on the CR with that though

would probably want one of the CR kits

[lost void]

Bone Krusha kit has a 10% w/o artificing

[glass birch]

Theres a cuprium scope for MI Sec, Scope T1 which is Agi/Int w/ the usual CR line as the third stat

[summer flower]

Ehh

Can't you do full correct stat 3 piece of mi security?

[glass birch]

You can but the chest ends up being AI

[summer flower]

You don't need cr

[summer flower]

AI?

[glass birch]

Arts intensity

[summer flower]

Ohh

[glass birch]

[summer flower]

Then it's question which one

[glass birch]

Wouldnt you want a CR weapon if you're only rocking the base 5% CR and the 5% set effect?

[summer flower]

No need apparently

[glass birch]

or at least another 10% from a kit

[summer flower]

Crit food should be enough

Ginseng meat stew

I guess for non boss content then Crit rate source could be fine but whatever

At worst you lose stacks for a bit

[lost void]

1 bonekrusha mask kit is 10 + food buff is already 21%

[summer flower]

No mask

F that

You only need to get mi security stacks

And you running most of time at 25% attack

With slab

Now we just need someone to do math on that

[rapid heron]

Damage=Attack×BaseMultiplier×MultiplierGroup×CriticalMultiplier×AmpMultiplier×StaggerMultiplier×FinisherMultiplier×LinkMultiplier×WeakenMultiplier×SusceptibilityMultiplier×IncreasedDMGTakenMultiplier×DMGReductionMultiplier×ProtectionMultiplier×DefenseMultiplier×ResistanceMultiplier . So if we take out any aspect that is the same between 2 builds we have ATK , Multipliergroup and Crit multiplier left. TangTang DMG distribution is 53% BS DMG as a control Op so we have MI security will be 1.25ATK * (1+1.17BSmultiplierx0.53+0.115Cryo)* AverageCritMultiplier and Bonecrusher is 1.15ATK(1+1.77BSMultiplierx0.53+ 0.115Cryo)* AverageCrit Multiplier. so we have 2.33 VS 2.43.

how about this math ?

[drifting quest]

see prydwen server for the issues it has

[rapid heron]

usign 53% BS damage distribution

[drifting quest]

i can try elaborate further on the attack%, as well as the other calc issues if you need me to

[summer flower]

Is that even naked distribution?

Or is it after prydwen put gear on?

[drifting quest]

the discord server, I meant

[rapid heron]

i will msg you there

[summer flower]

Issues with this build or issues with their discord server?

[smoky quarry]

1/10 of team damage dps formula btw

[rapid heron]

?

i dont see what team dmg has to do with personal DMG compare which set is better?

[drifting quest]

comparing solo damage is

super problematic

which is one of the things the crit tt video does to make mi look better

[summer flower]

if you comparing A to B

man....

ohh right isnt it like strategy?

to overcomplicate comparision so it doesnt yield outcome you dont want to?

[echo cove]

Do u count the dmg u do by ur whole team's dmg or only 1 unit dmg?

Cos if u use that logic, no chara would ever want to run xiranite set since it's always less dmg than like say, bonekrusha, yinlung, mi, hotwork, etc that we use on damage dealers

[summer flower]

its comparison of tang tang damage between sets ffs

[rapid heron]

cause hhere we are compare the personal DMG which set provide more DPS

which was the point of that video

[summer flower]

and which set even on tang tang would provide more team damage?

[rapid heron]

not for the team DPS

[drifting quest]

half the video was about solo dps which is pretty useless

[rapid heron]

and

[echo cove]

Are u running solo tantang?

[rapid heron]

and that what we want to deunk or prove

[summer flower]

its comparison between sets

[rapid heron]

so how any other character on the team will chaneg TangTang dmage of both set

[summer flower]

dont throw additional shit

[echo cove]

The issue is with how even that ties to ur team's dmg dude

[summer flower]

WE DONT NEED TO CALCULATE AMP FROM XAIHI AND UPKEEP< AND WHAT SKILLS ARE USED WHEN ITS UP

[echo cove]

Unless u run only tangtang

[rapid heron]

ok Perlica electrification will provide same Multiplier to both set

how that gonna change

OMG

[summer flower]

Xaihi would do same for both sets

[drifting quest]

ok so this is very quickly becoming dubious if not dishonest tc

im tapping out

[gritty briar]

damage bonus buffs do not provide the same benefits to both sets tho

[summer flower]

we know bonecrusha will lose damage from damage % sources

we know mi will suffer when attack % from other sources is higher

[obsidian oriole]

I've just been lurking but this is true, right? since damage buff dilution

[drifting quest]

yes

[echo cove]

Yes

[drifting quest]

buffs are additive in the same brackets

[echo cove]

Yep

[obsidian oriole]

supposedly, Ts ult. damage bonus (the 60/80%) is also in the damage buff bracket so she has some serious damage buff dilution (I'm not an expert tho)

[drifting quest]

so you cannot just 'drop the multipliers that are equal'

[summer flower]

yes, but i dont think we need to go into that topic yet, as so far it seems is worse set

[echo cove]

But multiplied among other sources

[drifting quest]

it should be very obvious you cannot do that

before we get into uptime and whatnot

but hey

[echo cove]

U can't just omit it either from being the biggest factor to the calc simply cos u believe "we don't need to go there yet"

The logic for dmg comparison at that point just goes off the window

[summer flower]

first we should look into dilution that hurts more set that seems better

that dilution that brings them together

cause if mi set has less dmg % but more attack %

first its harder to dilute, some premilary calcs suggested its better

[gritty briar]

You have to make some assumption on what dmg buffs there are at least. cant leave a variable undefined while calculating the others when it influences both sets differently

[summer flower]

so we should look into what value of attack % on just baseline to bring them together

[echo cove]

I think i understand what u meant by it's tough dealing with feelscrafter now@drifting quest

[summer flicker]

[gritty briar]

if you're assuming 0 dmg buffs, then say it

[summer flower]

we start with that

cause bonekursha is better value at that point

[obsidian oriole]

the set suggested in the video is this, if it helps, I did make it and have been very curious about actual results

note the huge battle skill dmg bonus but I think some people were saying the video didn't factor basic attacks and the cc said something along the lines of even then it not mattering 🤷‍♂️ I just want to know lol

[drifting quest]

Its bait

[obsidian oriole]

in my experience it's been very easy maintaining 5 stacks crit

[drifting quest]

Every other tc'er ive seen has come to the same result, except the poster

CN calcs included

[obsidian oriole]

1 Korean cc vs. the world lol

[summer flicker]

they are onto something

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/956086672418832394/1479851358424399995/image0.gif

[summer flower]

lemme guess, breach crush crush 4/3/4 is wrong because one guy just came up with it?

[drifting quest]

What

[edgy crater]

dats sound sarcastic

[summer flower]

argument to popularity is bad

[drifting quest]

If every other credible tc'er said 4/3/4 was wrong then I would expect it to be the case, yes

[summer flower]

and bonekrusha set?

[echo cove]

Now he's butthurt

[obsidian oriole]

btw would Wedge p0 make a difference in that crit set? since it gives crit and I don't have her sig do you think it'd be better vs. the more commonly suggested bonekrusha

[drifting quest]

Ive yet to see one additional person calc MI 3p to perform better

[summer flicker]

you need 8battle skill rotation aka worse if no ult eff

[summer flower]

meanwhile you are trying sabotage those calculations

[drifting quest]

Sabotage how

I dont trust the 93m damage tangtang calc sure

If you want to go for it

[summer flicker]

39 rohan

[summer flower]

i'm calculating set difference

[drifting quest]

But all I have done here is correct incorrect assumptions

[summer flicker]

i want my tt to have thta much dmg

[rapid heron]

it;s not assumtion it;s more of reduce any factor that randomize the result cause different people will sue different team set up

you have time to do every single one ?

cause perlica stanza give ATK on ukt

[summer flower]

like man, why do you need to calculate whole rotation

[gritty briar]

well I dont think the popular takes are infallible, but the amount of people who have verified it does matter to some extent

[rapid heron]

gilberta give art on lift

[summer flower]

you reduce problem

[echo cove]

What

[summer flicker]

because you team perform in a rotation

or are you solo tangtang

[summer flower]

i'm trying to get variable

[echo cove]

[summer flower]

out of two different sets

[rapid heron]

it;s liek you comparing salt and sugar

and they say but you always eat it with other food

[summer flower]

if i hear you need X uge for rotation, i can adjust, i can adjust one gear set to have uge that other have

[drifting quest]

Salt dissolves in water in cases sugar doesnt, impacting the chemistry of food production

[gritty briar]

well technically you can make comparisons of the two
can compare calorie content and such

[drifting quest]

Idg why you made a random irrelevant point but it doesnt support your argument

Atp just move on

[sterile patrol]

why this the first thing i see in endfield chat

[drifting quest]

Nothingburger discussion going nowhere

[summer flicker]

we are cooking

[echo cove]

Is this the art of confusing urself to confuse ur enemy?

[summer flicker]

literaly

[sterile patrol]

[echo cove]

Cos i don't get it

[drifting quest]

Its all off the back of that one crit tangtang video

[summer flower]

can i get that bonekursha gearing for tang tang?

[sterile patrol]

the voices...

[obsidian oriole]

let them cook, there's damage dilution from even ATK buffs with Stanza/set bonus small but yeah

[obsidian oriole]

idr which of these 2 sets he uses/is the more commonly suggested one

from the video obv

[drifting quest]

Neither

Are the baseline

Both are optionals

[echo cove]

Right, on this point.

It sounds to me that it would invalidate ur point if u had to adjust it (proving the old calc of urs wrong).

[drifting quest]

Yinglung body is the baseline

For UGE reqs

Main dps tt can go 0 uge in some timelines

Still needs uge in others

[obsidian oriole]

what's uge?

[summer flower]

...

[drifting quest]

Ult gain efficiency

[summer flicker]

8 battle skill kekw

oh wait 7 battle skill time line

[obsidian oriole]

ty

[summer flower]

you start with ultimate

[drifting quest]

Mostly an argument of no ult 0 energy start, or precharged ult speedrun

[summer flower]

guys update happened

now all is precharged ult

[drifting quest]

Why run uge if you clear in 5 skill

[summer flower]

have you played game recently?

[summer flicker]

[summer flower]

now you start with ultimate so yea

it was one of huge things in dev log

[summer flower]

can you show that baseline then?

[smoky quarry]

Not the case with endgame content, so it's not that important

[summer flower]

only difference there can be in gear that's important for rotation is uge

[smoky quarry]

Unless you just want to speedrun boss for the fun of the game

[summer flower]

not with re crisis?

or you mean umbral or something?

[summer flicker]

is re crisis even endgame

[drifting quest]

most flexible for most timelines

[summer flicker]

kekw

[drifting quest]

not all, obviously

but most, hence the baseline

[edgy crater]

test lab

[summer flower]

.....

[summer flicker]

punching bag

[honest hill]

idk if we will get an endgame

[summer flower]

is it fine for comparision?

[smoky quarry]

Umbral and future spiral abyss

[summer flicker]

https://gifconvert.vxtwitter.com/convert.avif?url=https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/HCPf4_bbEAEBVSf.mp4

[smoky quarry]

recrisis is just babyplay anyway

[summer flicker]

ye

[drifting quest]

assuming you only compare to the same team rot, uptimes, uge, etc. yes

[summer flower]

or there is gonna be REEE after i compare to it?

[edgy crater]

stress reliever

[honest hill]

umbral is way easier u get 10m

[drifting quest]

if you directly compare the BK chest mi build then its wrong, since uge diff and hence forced rot diff

[summer flicker]

you need to dodge

[honest hill]

u do the same in re crisis

[summer flicker]

wdym

[honest hill]

unless u want those tentacles to hit you

[summer flicker]

i face tanking the new boss

[echo cove]

U can kill em without dodging. U have 16 foods

[summer flicker]

kekw

umbral no food

[echo cove]

That 16 foods is enuf to stay alive while standing still for like 5 min

[summer flicker]

cant face tank

[honest hill]

just do it foodless harder than umbral

[echo cove]

So now u r putting a challenge on urself

[echo cove]

Why not just run a l1 chara on umbral? Gonna be harder no?

[summer flower]

dude

[echo cove]

By that logic

[summer flower]

its 3 gear difference

with chest being same

isnt that correct?

[edgy crater]

u use food on recrisis?

[honest hill]

no

[drifting quest]

most calcs are comparing 3 gear pieces changed out yes

[honest hill]

lv 1 catcher

[summer flicker]

mdps different gear, mdps use slab in tt case

[echo cove]

Slab op

Kekw

[summer flicker]

where strenght slab

it so bad

[echo cove]

Ikr

Mainstat% glove too pls

[drifting quest]

there's other calcs for subdps with yinglung + 3p

[summer flicker]

everyone gonna abuse that

[lyric latch]

Maybe when Mi Fu drops…

[drifting quest]

that are similar

[obsidian oriole]

[summer flower]

calcs are as folloows, no calcs showed

[summer flicker]

what are you on about

[summer flower]

and slab differnce

[edgy crater]

just give us a better surge tide chest

[echo cove]

I req str mainstat, ult dmg%

[summer flicker]

there a rotation

[summer flower]

wait, bonekrusha is for when wearer cast combo?

[summer flower]

so one stack per battle skill?

[summer flicker]

2 wdym

??

you dont even underrstand tt optimal play

[daring dove]

Starting to get my Ember build online. Likely need to dedicate the last week of this month to Rossi pre-farm though.

[summer flower]

?

[daring dove]

Assuming I'm going for Rossi.

[summer flower]

i dont have TT

[summer flicker]

optimal tt 2 combo before the battle skill

[summer flower]

i just played her in quest

[echo cove]

I don't think he can even read that

[summer flower]

wait, but CD on combo?

and most in damage in BS

[summer flicker]

just look at the rotaiton

[summer flower]

is 53% damage in BS assuming roation where its every 2 combo skills?

or is it not?

[summer flicker]

you can just watch maygi vid, to understand what her damage split

[summer flower]

link?

[daring dove]

To be honest the more I thought about it the more I'm just going to build Tangtang with all skill DMG%.

SInce she'll be more front-loaded then.

[echo cove]

https://youtu.be/0bC8CPNi5X4

[daring dove]

I don't really care about how much damage is done over an entire rotation if the difference isn't huge anyway.

[smoky quarry]

Here I am, offering you my precious time, and you waste it by running around

I did all umbrals without room for breathing nor sustain, cause this is the way

[summer flicker]

her basic attack actually do more than her skill

[daring dove]

I care abouty how much damage id done immediately.

[daring dove]

Not in a normal encounter they don't.

[summer flicker]

ye skill build till the best

[honest hill]

yep

[outer ermine]

speedrun

[summer flicker]

ye, by all mean bonecrusher with slab

[echo cove]

It's for mdps tt

[summer flicker]

they will die faster wih that

[summer flower]

82/2 41, 41+19=60 and 15% attack vs 117/2 58.2 and 20% attack (assumption of average attack %)

50% form damage distribution presented as fact

not even counting crit rate difference

[lyric latch]

So just delete the enemy before we can combo them.

[summer flower]

MI wins at 4 average stacks

cause dmg % is more diluted most cases

[daring dove]

Exactly high investment Tangtang is just using skill twice & deleting 95% of encouters anyway with current game difficulty.

So I'm just going full skill damage.

[summer flower]

overworld has some different gearing

[daring dove]

I'll care about how much my normal combo's are doing when things get more difficult.

[summer flower]

so yea mi security is better on paper

[echo cove]

Bonekrusha set bonus: 15% atk

[summer flower]

you see there i wrote 15% attack?

ohh wait yea i forgot the skill thingy

[summer flicker]

bonekrusha 60% where

[echo cove]

Yeah so u r counting 5% atk vs 58.2% whatever stat that is?

[summer flower]

l;emme correct it

then

[echo cove]

I mean, I don't even think 4 stack is the right assumption but i'll roll w it i guess

[daring dove]

I still think for 95% of encounters in this game (ones that aren't long drawn out fights). This is the Tangtang build to use despite all the calcs that show that other builds do better in a long form ST encounter.

Just stack battle skill damage an spam it twice

An win fight.

[summer flower]

where is sauce for that dmg distribution claim?

[smoky quarry]

15% atk bonus equals to 30% main stat bonus

[summer flower]

cause i need to confirm its naked

[smoky quarry]

snake?

[echo cove]

That 5% atk equal to that?

[smoky quarry]

where did you got 5%?

[summer flower]

if its naked its about 90 dmg %vs 60 dmg% 5%attack

[echo cove]

Bonekrusha give 15% atk as set bonus

So if we r only counting the dif

It's that, no?

[summer flower]

if we counting difference,

[echo cove]

Mi give 5% crit for a setbonus

[summer flower]

and 50% split of damage into battle skill on naked

[smoky quarry]

you guys try to make crits on tangtang?

[summer flower]

its 90% points of dmg vs 60% points of damage +5% attack

[echo cove]

He's tring to prove tt crit is better

[summer flicker]

at this point: go to excel, input mv% and do the rotation, and calc

[daring dove]

Why would you unless you don't have sig?

[echo cove]

Am trying to basically throw as much rebuttals as i can

[summer flower]

its split on set

[echo cove]

I mean most alr agree crit tt is bait anw

[summer flower]

wiht bonekrusha set

not naked

[gritty briar]

i'm kinda just curious where the math goes at this point. Kinda assumed bk would be better anyways after seeing tangtang's damage distribution

[summer flower]

GUYS ITS BATTLE SKILL GEAR SET

GIVING ME % FOR BASELINE?

bs

whoever posted that piechart without tang tang gear visible

[echo cove]

Idk either. We haven't even gone to rotation yet he assumed 20% atk% at 100% uptime from m1

[summer flicker]

that is a fricking tt sub dps

😭 😭 😭 😭

[summer flower]

doesnt matter

[summer flicker]

we r on tt mdps topic

[honest hill]

why is aethertech for lr it should be frontier

[summer flicker]

wtf you mean doesnt matter

[summer flower]

i was using bonekrusha set dmg as baseline % of damage from battle skill

i was using buffed % as baseline %

[summer flicker]

ye the feelcraft is too much

[summer flower]

f this

[summer flower]

lemme get baseline % from that

[honest hill]

stop feeling

[gritty briar]

you should just put all the skills in the rotation into a spreadsheet and calc it

[summer flicker]

[dense widget]

Hello, i have a quick question : i got very lucky and pulled both tangtang and yvonne today, who's weapon should I pull for?

[drifting quest]

tangtangs

[lilac bloom]

^

[summer flower]

(82+60+100)=53

[dense widget]

Thankss

[drifting quest]

better off rates, better gains

[lilac bloom]

yvonne has alternatives

wedge, even navigator can be decent

[dense widget]

Alright thanks again, I'll remember

[echo cove]

Navi kinda expensive...

[daring dove]

Tangtang's sig is the most important sig to own from any operators sig. The fact you can make a good argument for Tangtang being a better DPS than Yvonne anyway. With her sig also having team wide support makes it absolutely a no brainer.

Which one is better.

[lilac bloom]

even laev?

[rapid heron]

this?

[summer flower]

41% is battle skill naked if i'm correct

[daring dove]

Even Laevatain yeah.

[dense widget]

Yea laev sig looked real good to me

[lilac bloom]

damn

[dense widget]

Kk

[echo cove]

It's nit better than lr's tho if u run lr team lmao

[summer flower]

or at least after influenced by team

[obsidian oriole]

maybe a hot take but I don't like laev's sig, a bit boring to have only ult basic attack buffs even if it's her best

[daring dove]

Naw it just is better to be honest.

[echo cove]

Lr loses 20% dmg or sth without sig

40% if u use dark lung instead

[daring dove]

An again who should you care if Tangtang's likely a better DPS anyway & her sig buffs team wide damage by 10%?

[echo cove]

Tt loses like... 12% to her bp or sth iirc?

[lilac bloom]

yea

but also like team damage goes down

its mult for the team even if its small

[summer flower]

(60+82)*0.41= 58.1 58.1+19.2 = 77.3 bonekrusha

[daring dove]

Personal damage, remember Tangtang's buffs team wide damage. LR's doesn't.

[lilac bloom]

so unless youre main dpsing

[echo cove]

I mean that part is fair

[lilac bloom]

exemplar + brigand is prolly better combo than kravvy and bp

[echo cove]

But lr also don't have her mates doing much dmg aside from perlica since it's a hyper team with no subdps

[obsidian oriole]

at least sundered gives attack buff it's what I've been using when running her cause no sig

[echo cove]

Unless u run tt w her ofc

[lilac bloom]

tangtang is a jack of all trades

[echo cove]

Sundered is what i meant by losing 20% dmg

[summer flower]

47.97 is dmg % from mi tech before attack and crit rate

[daring dove]

No sig right now has value close to Tangtang's sig LR sig isn't really in compeptition to be honest. If it also boosted team wide damage by 10% like Tangtang's there be an argument for it.

[echo cove]

Sundered, exemplar, whatever other alternative she has

[daring dove]

Otherwise just invest in Tangtang

She's the better operator anyway.

[forest lily]

does antal's focus count as a susceptibility for xiranite?

[summer flower]

so with average 4 stacks of mi tech its gonna be 30% damage vs 5% attack without counting crit rate bonus

[forest lily]

im making sure my rot is made up right and im unsure

[summer flower]

would you trade 30 procentage points of damage bonus for 5% attack?

[echo cove]

I mean, am not against tt mdps dude. Am just saying if this is for lr mdps, u should reconsider for lr's sig instead cos the damage loss is too huge.

[obsidian oriole]

wait is that even considering the dmg dilution she gets from her cryo dmg buffs on gear and everything else? since I don't believe she gets atk% besides stanza

[echo cove]

Correct

After buff calcs

Khrav has atk boost

[obsidian oriole]

for sundered specifically (32% atk)

[summer flower]

what's typical attack % from team and damage % from team?

[gritty briar]

what's on the team?

cause there's stuff like eternal xira, frontiers, gilberta sig

[summer flower]

i dunno how to do math if 30% damage adjusted for skills damage distribution is better than 5% attack

and most that difference is from ice damage % being in bonecrusha set

[echo cove]

B4 we even go into that, do u even believe u can get that 20% uptime 100% of the time without it going down and needing to restack?

Mi stack is only like 5s? Was it?

[gritty briar]

he's already trying to assume downtime because if he wasn't, it would be 25%

[obsidian oriole]

it's 5% on base and 5% on 5 stacks, yeah

[summer flower]

you have 4 sec of batack

with like 14 attacks on it

so its like what? 5% attack and 5% crit rate

cause that going in and dissapearing crit rate hard to even account for

[echo cove]

But even then, this is a 0 crit mi set he's running. Which only has 5% crit?

Reapplying for downtime would take quite alot of hit so the avg is prolly closer to 15%

Unless u burst all the skill within a very short windown without waiting for cs

Oh w8

Bs hm....

[gritty briar]

dunno what the exact uptime would actually be but tangtang attacks pretty frequently

[echo cove]

Maybe bs will do sth

[summer flower]

chance at max stacks to keep stacks while only hitting enemy 4/5 seconds avaible

or was it 14?

[summer flicker]

10% crit btw

[summer flower]

that's without even considering crit rate buff

[echo cove]

I wonder if bs will even be enuf

[summer flower]

keeping max stacks

[echo cove]

Yeh i just noticed 10% at full stack

[summer flower]

at max stacks you are 15% crit rate total

[summer flicker]

and 14 attemps for a 90% of 1 stack

[gritty briar]

i think it wouldn't even drop for very long if it did drop

[echo cove]

Which is cooked if it ever go to downtime@summer flicker

[summer flicker]

yes even if not go to downtime, it worse

[obsidian oriole]

I unfortunately don't have her sig so I'm using Wedge with +8.5% crit and I just got into rhadagn and her 1st skill + combo already capped stacks

[echo cove]

When it drop, ur crit rate goes to 5%

If it drop, u need bs to restack for sure

[summer flicker]

base crot is 5, set is 5 max dtakc another 5

[summer flower]

if it goes to 0 then 77%

and that's just basics

[echo cove]

Ahhh w8 ok am tripping

[summer flower]

4 seems as resonable average

[echo cove]

I didn't know base crit existed

Whew

[summer flower]

would you pick weapon with 5% more attack but 30% less cryo damage?

is it better choice most of cases?

[gritty briar]

probably not but i'd probably check case by case

[echo cove]

Ur 15% crit rate isn't flat.

U only have 15% if it never goes down

[summer flower]

average of 4/5

not counting even CR from set and from 5 stacks

[normal tangle]

90% of the time no

[summer flower]

one could check if cryo damage swap between correct stats and not would make sense

[normal tangle]

just do the math though it's really easy

[echo cove]

What set r u even running here, am like confused cos last i saw ur build don't have any cr equip

[gritty briar]

for 5% atk to be better than 30% dmg, you'd have to have something like +500% damage already and no existing atk increases
cause 600 -> 630 is a 5% increase

this would be absurd

[normal tangle]

you would be absurd

[daring dove]

That's fine, I'm saying the way I'd look at it would be a bit different. I'd say for my 8 arsenal pick pulls what gives me the most value. A weapon that increase Tangtang's damage by 16% + Last Rites damage by 10% + Xaihi's damage by 10% + Gilberta damage by 10%. Or a weapon that increases Last Rite's damage by 20%, the difference between the two won't be large either way. But one is time limited the other is always on offer there's no way I'd be picking up Last Rites sig first.

[hasty grail]

One more thing for you guys to consider. This has to be main dps tangtang cause a bot isnt keeping up those batks and at that point you could be comparing to slab tangtang

[summer flicker]

slab tt peak

[honest hill]

I use her for essence farm

[summer flower]

controlled yea

[rapid heron]

the issues with some people cant pick wepaon is some guide only show team DMG which lower the damage different between weapons by miles. Especially when you only have 1 DPS cause all there team calulation is base off all character max lvl 90 max weapon max essences. When most player only have DPSop r at lvl 90 and all support is 60-80 so any DMG lost is much bigger than they show in Team calculation

[summer flower]

man i was asking today about dmg distribution for tang tang

someone was posting dmg distribution with set already equipped

[honest hill]

tbf a lot of the supports do negligible damage

[summer flower]

and now i dont even know if its due to rotation

[rapid heron]

like i saw a video show Lastrite sig only 11 % better than Examplar in team DMG but in personal it;s like almost 40%

[summer flower]

because if its corrosion in rotation my calcs are still wrong

[drifting quest]

all damage distribution is due to rotation

what

[daring dove]

I mean the damage distribution for Tangtang is whatever you make it with your rotational assumptions to be honest.

[summer flower]

baseline distribution would be nice

[drifting quest]

there is no baseline

it depends on the rot

[honest hill]

there are only few sub dps that are worth pushing past 60 like tt for example

[drifting quest]

a rot that does 10 tangtang skills will obviously differ from a rot that does 0

[daring dove]

For me most rots with Tangtang the damage distribution is 100% Battle skill damage. Because the enemies are literally dead before I do anything else.

Which is why I priortise battle skill damage.

[gritty briar]

you have to make some assumptions about the rotation to calculate anything for damage distribution. there's no "no rotation" distribution

[kind nebula]

by definition you need a rotation to do it, there’s calcs for the most relevant (best in whatever metric you choose) rotations if that’s what you want?

[summer flicker]

in some rotation this set is better, other rotstion other set is better

gearing is based on rotation

i wonder what 93mil crit tt rotation look like

[gritty briar]

40 dead rhodagns

[drifting quest]

id expect they added up like a fuck ton of them

and said yeah total dps over some 50 rots is good enough

[echo cove]

Tt with meeting stew, with sup all holding slug pudding

[summer flicker]

still wouldnt make it 93mil

[echo cove]

True that

[summer flicker]

you kill him faster but not higher rotation length

[outer ermine]

cryobug tt could have done it trust

[echo cove]

[gritty briar]

do we include opening the recrisis menu and selecting rhodagn 40 times as part of the rotation?

[edgy crater]

side step bug?

[drifting quest]

ACTUALLY SO TRUE

its the one shot tangtang bug

thats the numbers

we cracked the case

[summer flicker]

that maybe x64 interger limit bug

[drifting quest]

[summer flower]

side step bug?>

[echo cove]

[edgy crater]

tang2 doing michael jackson move n enemy insta dead lmao

[drifting quest]

there's a bug that lets tangtang (and other units) one shot any enemy

idk if it got patched yet

[edgy crater]

hope not

dat bug also funny

[echo cove]

We need an enemy dummy for dps check pls

[outer ermine]

other one

havent seen it in patch notes yet

[drifting quest]

the infliction one got patched

[outer ermine]

2s ruan solo oneshot

[gritty briar]

can the oneshot bug be replicated reliably?

or is it unknown how it triggers?

[sterile patrol]

gotta wait for miliastra unfortunately

[drifting quest]

I personally dont know the trigger condition but I also havent tried to find out

early guess was it's tied to conditional susceptibility procs on off field units

since lifeng ardelia tangtang all had records of doing it

seems more disproven now since other units have done it too

[echo cove]

Spaghetti code

[outer ermine]

i prob have 20 clips of xai getting oneshot by ruan

[echo cove]

[outer ermine]

and like 2 lr

[echo cove]

Dats possible?

[gritty briar]

maybe ruan is just that strong

[drifting quest]

the bug is two way

your units can get one shot

[edgy crater]

the undying big bro

[echo cove]

Oh we don't have a ruan emoji

[drifting quest]

only applies to non controlled operators

[daring dove]

If they try to turn this game into a Roblox spin off instead of using my money to meaningfully improve the game / story & gameplay experience I'm roaching out of here.

[drifting quest]

for both one shotting and getting one shot

[manic jay]

has anyone ran the numbers on MI Security set for a main dps Tantang?

[echo cove]

The factory must grow

[sterile patrol]

so lappland is what we're saying

[sterile patrol]

maygi calcd it to be worse than bonezone + slab at max uptime, if you dont hit max uptime (you likely wont) then it will fall off even harder

[manic jay]

alright thanks

[summer flower]

• slab, second set didn't had slab

[drifting quest]

3p BK + yinglung body

wins too

[sterile patrol]

burger king 3p

[native aurora]

[summer flower]

If I calced baseline % damage in battleskill in rotation

[daring dove]

Looks like I was a little off about Tangtang's max ATK anyway without slab I reckon I can hit 6.4k so likely 6.3k for a P0 build.

Wonder what the max for slab Tangtang is maybe 7k?

[summer flower]

If cryo on set would be correct stat distribution

[rapid heron]

i have no idea why would anyone recommend stagger set on Gilberta

like EVER

[summer flower]

XD

Where did you find that?

[rapid heron]

some popular youtuber dont want to say their name

[summer flower]

Unless it's specific case where you almost stagger with specific rotation

[gritty briar]

some people were posting it around, i assumed it was a meme

[summer flower]

XD

[rapid heron]

it from actual popular guide video youtuber of endfield

[gritty briar]

yeah it just sounds like an option for if you needed an extremely specific stagger timing

[rapid heron]

no

[drifting quest]

aligns burst windows with stagger

[rapid heron]

her skill deal no stagger

[drifting quest]

is a real set

[rapid heron]

that the problem

[daring dove]

Lets build CR Gilberta instead for science I'll recommend you the gear pieces you artifice it all & test it. Then we can rule out it not being BiS.

[gritty briar]

lift does stagger

[summer flower]

But real as regular? Or specific team set?

[rapid heron]

most team you only use her combo

[summer flower]

Wait

[drifting quest]

A) her battle skill does apply stagger
B) her combo is the main case as it procs swordmancer effect as well

[summer flower]

Did we test if lift is affected by stagger efficiency?

[drifting quest]

it is

[summer flower]

If it's only vunl source in team then it sounds bad

[gritty briar]

someone also checked and arts intensity stagger boost is additive with swordmancer stagger boost, if you were wondering

[summer flower]

Nice

[gritty briar]

but since there's nothing else to do you could also stack some arts int and get slightly more stagger

[summer flower]

I was one testing sundered prince

[obsidian oriole]

oh? so Pog with new swordmancer 3p and hot work gloves (117 arts intensity) is pretty good?

I was just now messing with that, comparing

[rapid heron]

so how much stagger does lift gives exactly by default?

[summer flower]

Forgot

10

[obsidian oriole]

the 2 sets in question

[gritty briar]

well that's not really related to what i'm saying about stagger cause arts int doesn't boost any stagger from breach.
But you would want arts int for breach anyways

[rapid heron]

ty

[drifting quest]

better if you need the stagger, worse if you dont

[summer flower]

*(1+ [arts intensity/200])

[obsidian oriole]

I just ball so I never know if I need the stagger or not
that's also my issue with ult eff idk breakpoints and such

[summer flower]

Oh wait, pog doesn't apply physical status

Also does swordmancer trigger on first vunl?

[obsidian oriole]

no, just breach and his 2 skills + ESPECIALLY his ult give stagger

[fossil pendant]

does multihit stuff like chen ult snapshot on cast or update in real time with buffs

[rapid heron]

im using that set on pog

[summer flower]

Ohh good question

Never got answer to that

For sure expected would be enemy debuffs to be applied

[rapid heron]

the 2nd one

[summer flower]

So anybody knows answer?

I think it does update it but cannot be sure

[drifting quest]

differs per case

[rapid heron]

Chen ult dmg update in real time

every hit

[drifting quest]

most cases update in real time

[rapid heron]

with her talents

1st hit deal base dmge 2nd one 1 stack talent and so one

hit = it need to deal DMG before the talent is trigger

[summer flower]

We talking damage dealing

[rapid heron]

most other action like consume or cause... is before DMG calculation

[rapid heron]

that what i answered before

[summer flower]

Yea it wasn't directed to you

I just didn't want Xaihi case be put there

[obsidian oriole]

I somehow just oneshot rhadagn deep dive lol all I did was Ember battleskill as he jumped at me at the start and the ensuing Ember, Chen, Endmin combo skills

barely even noticed, no idea how to replicate but someone was asking earlier

[drifting quest]

unpatched

get all your trims you dont have i guess

[outer ermine]

should have fixed it on 3/16 patch

give me my comp

[gritty briar]

broken game

[lyric latch]

there is also a bug with Marble in which multiple tentacles spawn on the same location.

[outer ermine]

i need that for speedkill

[gritty briar]

oh i haven't seen that

if you bug out marble and instakill her phase 1, does it also skip phase 2 or are they separate?

cause rhodagn and the like are still the same enemy but idk about marble

[outer ermine]

w oneshot bug? u skip the whole fight

[summer flower]

O.O

[outer ermine]

they literally just die

[gritty briar]

incredible

[summer flower]

How it works?

[gritty briar]

there's no damage number or anything right? i dont think i saw any indicator or anything when i saw clips of it happening

they just die

[drifting quest]

Marble doesnt skip

Triagg does

[gritty briar]

interesting

[drifting quest]

Unless marble bugged harder since I last saw

[gritty briar]

does triag carry over status effects on phase change? i know rhodagn does

i've always had the impression that rhodagn and triag are still the same entity on phase change while marble isnt

[dusk isle]

if you mean inflictions and such, yes

[valid palm]

Not sure about in general, but almost certainly Chen's specifically updates in real time

[smoky quarry]

I think f2p greatsword characters are cooked, we don't actually have good standard GS

so we are dependant on bp option

[valid palm]

Because each small hit stacks her passive

So it would be highly antisynergistic if the subsequent hits of her ult didn't receive the attack boost from the former hits

[summer flower]

Ehh? Box had sundered

[smoky quarry]

It's just a stat stick

[gritty briar]

maybe my standards are low but exemplar and sundered don't look that bad to me

[smoky quarry]

I wonder, is khrav strong because other GS are trash, or khrav strong because it's overtuned?

[summer flower]

Okay... So people are drooling over swordmancer

[gritty briar]

real cooked weapon options to me is when i look at what my options are for 6 star estella weapon

[summer flower]

And would put it on everyone, but moment sundered is mentioned they ughh at it?

[valid palm]

swordmancerpilled and staggermaxxing

[obsidian oriole]

speaking of greatsword's, I'm not wrong in assuming Sundered P1 would be better than Exemplar P0 when onfielding Ember with full swordmancer team Chen, Endmin, and Pog, am I? in general and boss situations

[obsidian oriole]

the timing lol

[smoky quarry]

Exemplar is a sword specifically for phys dps units, and since we got panda, I don't think that happens again anytime soon

(Also exemplar is apparently his signature)

[summer flower]

Didn't compare them much, I wanted to go examplar but jet was in same box

[smoky quarry]

Valiant works?

[gritty briar]

Will/Str character btw

[summer flower]

Who is even like that?

[smoky quarry]

Last time I heard

nobody plays estella last time I heard though

[gritty briar]

true...

[valid palm]

The real sauce is running Arts Intensity Estella on Swordmancer

[summer flower]

Swordmancer Estella?

[valid palm]

Who needs Will. She will get Strength and she'll fucking like it

[summer flower]

Isn't there better set?

Wait Estella is will primary?

[honest hill]

You can play her

[valid palm]

The only other set even worth considering is her traditional ult regen maxing

[gritty briar]

yeah it's evil

every 6 star spear except jet is agility

[summer flower]

Slab

Slab

[valid palm]

Which is technically optimal for rotations but

[summer flower]

Estella double slab

[valid palm]

I want those chunky Swordmancer + Arts Intensity shatters

[summer flower]

Now I wonder what to do with two slots left over

Wait

Is this edge case for purple attack?

Still hoping one operator will be better with that

[gritty briar]

purple attack?

[smoky quarry]

hollow purple

[valid palm]

bro if hollow purple is so strong why haven't they made a full purple

smh

[smoky quarry]

that was 200% purple

[summer flower]

wait they added new off sets

[smoky quarry]

it's been 6 days already 😭

[smoky quarry]

Every GSworder uses Strength

Former Finery boosts Will

All northmarch weapons should just boost main attribute, isn't versatility their whole point?

[gritty briar]

former finery is an abomination

[smoky quarry]

the only bad northmarch weapon

every family has an ugly son

Thermite, detonation, wedge, jet, all good

Looks pretty good

[drifting berry]

Former Finery was introduce to make players feel that the actually lost the 75/25

[smoky quarry]

First player to get 6 copies of former finery gets his account deleted

the game has started

[valid palm]

Former Finery isn't bad. Defenders are supposed to boost team sustain

[smoky quarry]

all defenders are frauds

They can't even do anything useful if you don't get hit

[valid palm]

Defenders were better before they overbuffed dodging

[smoky quarry]

tanking damage is boring anyway

best they can do is give them actual utility

[frozen tide]

If shield gave hyperarmor

It'd be rly nice

[normal tangle]

eh

i would much rather have useless defenders than having to pass two different dps checks

[valid palm]

??

[normal tangle]

could you imagine being gated because your version 1.0 defender doesn't defend enough against version 2.0 enemies so you just die

[valid palm]

that is not what I meant lol

you can also use enchanters for healing too or whatever

[smoky quarry]

Could you imagine give up flex slot for a defender

[valid palm]

it's just the interruption immunity that's important

because of how much combat revolves around FS

[normal tangle]

i'd be okay with this

we don't need this much dps anyway

[valid palm]

Now that dodging doesn't interrupt your FS, defenders are pretty useless

Which is like

I don't think that's a bad change

Makes the game more fluid

But it's kind of messed up that they never bothered to compensate defenders after the change or give them any niche

[gritty briar]

the niche is helping bad players with that one umbral stage

[valid palm]

Now they're just enchanters who don't provide buffs

[gritty briar]

well for 2 of the defenders anyways

i don't know if ember does anything there

[valid palm]

we only have 3

[smoky quarry]

Can you imagine striker operator whose bs is parry and riposte? Would be hella cool

[honest hill]

Defenders needs something unique to help them instead of yk nerfing base movement

[gritty briar]

the other thing they do pretty well is stagger on their basics but this doesn't really matter and also swordmancer chen exists

[summer flower]

Yea no new willpower off set

[summer flower]

doesnt matter, people drooling over every stagger point they can get

[honest hill]

defenders could buff teammates survivability + damage reduction + no interruption for 5s or something

[gritty briar]

pretty sure using the parry would save you from interruption and buff survivability

it's not really enough

[valid palm]

why do you need damage reduction or no interruption when you can just click your right mouse button and get both for free

[honest hill]

methinks if u do successful parry u get sp back and more

[valid palm]

If your point is "they could just make defenders for people with no hands" then that already exists

[honest hill]

from dodging?

[gritty briar]

they actually already have sp return

[honest hill]

is it much tho

[gritty briar]

catcher returns 30 sp, 40 if he has shield active from his combo skill

[valid palm]

the issue is that SP return is ass and half the time it actively ruins rotations

making SP return gimp your energy generation is genuinely one of the most baffling moves they made

[summer flower]

actively runis rotation?

extra SP is bad okay hmmm

hmmm

i guess nobody likes extra sp ?

[gritty briar]

it does create a cheap way to apply vuln too

[summer flower]

not even phys teams

[valid palm]

because it's fake SP

[honest hill]

SP return shouldn't be a thing should just be SP gen like how pog does it

[gritty briar]

well it can ruin rotations

[summer flower]

you can have crush teams that dont need any ultimates

[valid palm]

... with who

[honest hill]

devs did fumble w the SP return

why they even add it

just bad

[gritty briar]

if you needed like 4 skills worth of energy but thanks to return you only got 3.6 skills worth of energy, you're just stuck needing to cast an entire extra skill to fix it or reach a new ult charge breakpoint

[honest hill]

it would be nice if when u parry successfully w defender u get a lot of SP

[gritty briar]

that being said, catcher's isn't that bad cause if you're using it at all, you're using it frequently enough that you can make it give you an entire extra skill use and fix any rounding issues with your ult gain

[honest hill]

So u return 1.2x of it

something good

[gritty briar]

as someone who is stuck with a team that has fucking 15 sp return from estella and 30-40 sp return from catcher, it's flexible enough to fix itself to match your ult gain breakpoint

and you have some flexibility because you can choose whether to activate more parries before or after catcher combo skills to choose whether you want to return an extra 10 or not

so you can kinda adjust your rotation to fit

[honest hill]

return SP is just bad