#esports-discussion
1 messages · Page 281 of 1
i mean their tanks
backbone goated mei
canada
Oh
St Clair college
what is that
nothing wrong with that
The chat is so toxic 💀
if you wanna make t3 there is
no there isnt
wdym
there's ex owl players in collegiate 😭
is there any somewhat SOMEWHAT ok teams in americas outside US and canada?
yea
the closest i can find is columbia
but they also play for t2 teams
we will see.
bc the good collegiate teams have contenders teams too
the t2 teams they play for are the collegiate teams
yea
France has 8 coaches ??? What the hell
but no ex owl players play on mid level collegiate
no its not
they have diff rosters
in contenders
like redbirds has tap but tap doesnt go to isu
saints had cjay and vega but they went to northwood
etc
LMFAO
Ksaa u can’t be doing that
torb 😄
we in the g leagues boys
Are they playing on current patch?
Yes
i think so
they are
Oh
He tried to get off that mercy
yazan gets so much value
hes flowing rn
HOLY
bro
BETTER THAN OWL
masa playing like he never left
that masa clutch
YESSSS
did he boop them?
bro rembers
yazan hits those rockets like theyre hitscan
damn that nade stick 💀
Wooooo
YESSSSSS
That was stressful to watch
HOLY FUCK BRO
finland clutched up
I was about to sleep
sauna is a legit legit owl hitscan he is just stuck behind checkmate
merit
nah
heropool wise sauna is closer to checkmate
why he hasnt performed well this season is cuz his only games were in lijiang next to checkmate so he was forced to play mei
he got in the league for his tracer/hitscan
sauna has performed well
not in owl this season.
he has lsot every map he played
and got perma benched
my point being he hasnt been able to play his main heroes this entire season
Sauna was just brought in to fill very niche roles
u said there's a problem being a collegiate player if u wanna make t3 and ur takes have been just as bad since tbh
which is understandable cuz checkmate is crazy
like tracer + flex comps because Mer1t tracer is dog
t3 as in top3
in world cup
are we talking about same t3?
or double hitscan
they probably thought you meant tier 3 as in players from below contenders
Now that is some bs
Merit has a decent tracer
he played it on the outlaws
also im pretty sure sauna played genji aswell
World Cup icon still bugged ?
Its the ping issue ig
Bro yznsa a different breed in this match. Especially on Lijiang, I’m surprised they lost that one
everyone is lagging rn
Ah shit
that pharmercy goes crazy
contenders dps
Fr. He’s cooking the two OWL DPS whore both supposed to be cracked
we lost...
Kevster and Sparkr NO HELP
Where are the Healers
Because they definitely WERE NOT playing
team sweden deleted my reply
:((
2 dps isnt enough when u dont have a tank and support
too many washed players
Are these games firs to 2?
XD
Hi fam! I run a OW events calendar through Google. If you want the link to add it to your devices please PM me! All the OWWC events are up, as well as summer showdown schedule. I also try to keep T2 and T3 events listed.
phi kinda looking like the goat on team germany
how many countries are in the wc
at least 1000
Overwatch World Cup 2023
37 teams, 16 make it to lan iirc
jkaru sweep 💯💯
oh this is a stomp
UK styling on Belgium rn
really said c9 💀
Wait when is it tf
uk freest map of their lives 💀
they just have better players
what is logix gonna do against kai backbone
2 weeks
Oh my
3 meters
LOGIX CANT DO MORE
Are these ow wc players like equivalent to top teams or are they in the middle
i know they got owl players on the teams but idk
the other UK players (WMaimone, Kronus, JKaru) are all Contenders players - don't know much about Belgium's players apart from Logix
blade with like 50 hp
I feel like I've heard the name before but not sure where from
maybe just a ranked stomper that I've seen on weekly montages or something maybe
sheesh Kai, what a shot
World Cup timeeeeee
as a Brit, how far do you think UK could go in the WC - is top 4 impossible (assuming top 3 are SK, US, China)?
trying to think of other top 4 contenders
Does the ongoing World Cup have drops of any sort?
yes
Oh cool ty
what other countries could be top 4? Canada? Denmark?
crazy blade
we have a pretty sick DPS line ngl
ken's insane that triple headshot was chefs kiss
Kai, Backbone, WMaimone is really solid
US, China, and SK are basically confirmed top three
agreed, but then I feel top 4 is very much up for grabs
Canada is a solid bet I think
i think they'll definitely be in the top 5 and then that other spot is probably between france and UK
Denmark is strong but there's just some phenoms out there
I don't actually think France is that good outside the tanks and FDGod
like idk how much Nico still plays the game and I know nothing about their other DPS or their other support
Benbest/Poko is a very nice tank line though
france are fucked if its not a lucio meta
fd cant play brig
I actually said a bit of a hot take that I think Netherlands might beat out France
also we cant just sleep on nico
France defo won't go to the final 3 but i think they'll get far
this man returned just to run it back
The break music
i dont think france will top 4
it's certainly not the France of old with AKM, Soon etc
Is fire
me neither
So much better than the usual OWL break music
idk if they even get out of groups
but i have them making lan
They have more coaches than they have players
the only other real contender for their spot is netherlands
yeah agreed, and I think Netherlands' DPS might be better
A10/Tap is really good
admittedly, both their tanks are MT
so they have less flexibility there
DPS have the least impact
Look at Sweden
true true
If your support / tank gets diffed it’s GG
but yeah who else realistically is a top 4 contender
kevster sparkr cant do more its so sad
Saudi Arabia maybe?
canada
I dunno, gotta see more games
nahh
Korea and China
canada and saudi
As well as US
well yes, SK and China are shoo in
Are my top 3 picks
I'm saying apart from those 3
SK China and US are basically confirmed
if any of them don't make it it'll be an upset
Finland. KSA. UK.
aint no way korea's not making it
I suppose if Sweden's DPS go absolutely mad they could make it
they got 2022 dallas plus lip
Did you see China’s team?
like Kevster/Sparkr could just carry
china is just spark💀
korea is literally the championship-winning dallas core + lip
Spark + Faraway
Unless the opposing DPS are literally sleeping
spark aint doing shit against that 💀
SK is Fuel + Lip + FiNN
Chiyo + Fielder is an absolutely insane support duo.
Practiced coordination and fluid combos > individual skill
The only way I can see SK losing it is if the meta doesn't suit Sparkle
because SK only have 2 DPS players
Sombra Tracer all the way.
you win the entire wc
I mean, I'm struggling to think of a meta that SK would be bad in
And I’m pretty sure their Mei doesn’t lose out that much to anyone elses
with fielder chiyo backline and fearless the winston otp (tbf he can play ram now)
maybe full on double hitscan?
double sniper
for sure
ive never seen sparkle pick up hanzo
Which map would you even play that on and why
If you have the best Sombra in the world
its just speculation
but sk are a very meta proof team
fearless for monkey meta hanbin for literally anything else
I mean what meta would Shy/Leave be better than Lip/Sparkle
so yeah something like double sniper on Circuit for example
pretty much lol
Just hold spawn
unless we get some shitty hog/sig poke meta
😄
then you have Hanbin lol
It’s also not a DPS problem
so sk can struggle
Because you’d have to force SK off meta
thats the only comp they COULD struggle at
And good luck
Guxue could stand up to Fearless on Winston but Twenty would get diffed by Hanbin basically on any tank
With doing that
Yeah but why would they bother to mirror when they can just run dive
bc if its like a must pick to go hog/sig like it was in 2020
But it isn’t
Unless a patch changes meta
thats why this is all hypothetical 💀💀💀
Which I doubt they’ll do mid OWWC
you guys discussing the current world cup game or what
who knows what the meta will be by the time Blizzcon comes around
we were initially discussing top 4 contenders
and then it divulged into what meta would SK lose
That’s like saying Sombra could suddenly be nerfed into the ground
aw man, no world cup stream discussion?
anything is possible between june and october
I mean, we were discussing it
all the fun games are done
I don’t see any team capable of forcing SK off dive meta on any map
but then we went off topic
wym it's still going
because I was saying whether UK is a top 4 contender
"the fun games"
it's still going
idk what is your definition about fun games here
And just going off of individual skill
Finland/Saudi Arabia was pretty fun
uk absolutely swept
the games I wanted to watch
They swept Belgium lol
i just tuned in, i missed a lot
I mean most WC teams are no?
Belgium who couldn’t even field 5 known players
true 💀
UK at least have a respected coach in ChrisTFer
yeah every team except japan and china
they've got individual skill but i think they need to change their strategy a bit
Denmark will be a good match for UK
everyone on japan is from the same contenders team
Germany’s team is fairly coordinated, they’re just EU contenders tier which isn’t that impressive.
Nope
hadi said he was focusing on owl
and he wanted to give spotlight to younger talent
No time for fucking around in a T3 team
respect
idk what happened to kaan tho
wait isn't Kaan Netherlands?
@smoky pulsar
that was a good mei play from chimera
Well Daan is Netherlands so I assumed Kaan is
this is what I mean Naomi
France ain’t going anywhere xD
I don't think their roster is that good
france will not go far if they cant force lucio for the majority of the tourney
bc fd cannot play brig 💀💀
Their rein
Just got pushed off map
By Orisa spin
fd is going crazy
benbest the goat idk what to tell you 💯
france sweep 🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷
france isn't bad except for the rein wtf is that
that's just standard rush no?
the pharah is crazy
unless you want Ram in instead of Rein
rip benbest 💀
They ain't comps. They just picking random characters lmaoo
the Pharah/Ball stuff was late swaps
Ball Pharah Mei Bap Lucio
Still
Even for late touch
What the Pharah cooking
Rush with Orisa 🗿
Let's go France 🇫🇷 ❤️
Britain clapped Belgium tho ngl
Circuit was a competitive map but Lijiang was not close
Yeah, France smoked tf out of Italy
no I meant in Belgium/UK
Ah true as well
i attribute it to boneback on ana
but yeah honestly apart from SK/China/US - the 4th place does feel very open this year
it is
i dont think its that open
solidly UK
that's what I was thinking
Yeah, UK clapping cheeks so far
but there are other contenders
^^ facts
usa can play uv on brig
yeah but no lucio
Good ol' britain hopefully gonna get top 3
Actually looking at it, the only role US definitely clear UK is tank
the DPS are fairly comparable
aspire tracer hydron sombra and coluge/super can rotate monkey
and they have better FS but we have a better MS in FunnyAstro
Kai was cooking in that game vs Belgium
Not if they semi troll like they did on Circuit
super still can play monkey idk what u on about 🥱
if they are running uv on brig it doesnt really matter
coluge is a better monkey
Hydron/Aspire/Sugarfree v Kai/Backbone/WMaimone is fairly close
hey there's a reason smurf got permabenched for super during a monkey meta in 2021
not on Tracer imo
do NOT sleep on the super monkey
that's probably our weakest hero DPS wise
🥱🥱
Super hasn’t been competing in top level play for how long now ?
Maimone is good but Sugarfree is cracked
only 1yr
a year
maimone is cracked too
but yeah honestly US v UK would be a close match imo
We’ll see I guess? Might have been scrimming a lot
usa dont really have an ot either
BACK
Coluge?
what abt coluge
is coluge an ot?
yes
oh
yes
his best heroes are Dva and Sigma iirc
icl only ever seen him on monkey and sig
he played ot on AT
I don’t see UK winning vs US
played with reiner
everyone said this in goats too
This isn’t goats
Pretty sure US team support and tank lineup outclasses UKs
I mean, US don't have a proper MS
And DPS is at best ‘even’
we have Astro
usa have basically boxed themselves into dive
us can still play brig so
jkaru is heavily underrated
FS has a shit ton of impact these days
they def not gonna play rush against a team like uk
imo he should be in owl
yeah but uk is gonna force rush lmao
he's been dominating eu contenders on monkey for like 3 years
And I still think they’ll lose in a BO3 or BO5
I bet you every US player knows how to deal with Rush
I mean we have no idea what the meta will be when they play
also us dont really have a great sombra
what a shit argument 😭
I bet you every UK player knows how to deal with Dive
hydron and sugarfree are serviceable
on sombra
hydrons sombra wasnt very good in owl
true
and u just run lenny on tracer no?
lenny is a better tracer imo
yeah I think US have us beaten on Tracer
yeah but who's gonna play sombra
maimone has a decent sombra im pretty sure
even if Maimone is good
plus when sugarfree aspire played
Sugarfree on Tracer especially is nasty
Fair, but you’ll have to be able to force US off of dive first. And I dunno how easily UK can do that.
kai is better than all of us players, backone is better at mei than all of them, maimone can hold his own on tracer
when i say all
i mean all dps
I was about to say that's a crazy take that Kai is better than everyone on US but honestly, it might not be a mad shout
cloudy is a better game analyst in ml7's stream than pretty much all owl casters lol
the only way you forcing us to not play dive is by playing lijiang
Kai is legit insane
kai is fucking crazy
ur gonna have kai on hanzo/soj/cass
he's always been a great player
and backbone mei
since valiant days
backbone might legit be the best mei in owwc
Has he placed first in a major yet?
I still remember when I was playing university OW I faced Boombox once...
no 💀
needless to say, we got absolutely slapped lol
DPS being insane isn’t going to win you games as things are right now
Points at Sweden
rhere is no way you bring trophies into this
do you not watch the games 😭
kai on valiant carried a shit valiant team and made them look okay
I’m just saying that DPS being a bit better than the other DPS
Kai not winning a tournament is because he's been on bad teams
Isn’t going to decide games in the current balance
I mean I’ve just read a lot of argument who between US and UK has better DPS
they did their job.. Just didnt gigacarry like everyone expected
And I’m not sure if the difference is steep enough to matter
it was a bigger tank& supp diff than dps one
sparkr didnt really have a good series
kai and sparkr are fighting 2v5 man
so was logix
Wassup
i got busy and missed those first two rounds what's going on with this match
Hm?
literally he was the only reason belgium were competitive on circuit
their tank and supps were legit invisible though
none of hte us dps have any titles either 💀
bc he found 2 picks in a last ditch effort to stall cart
kai has the best placements
Kaan Dutch or Ger ? Why Hadi no play on Ger team
is anyone still watching france v italy?
Good point
yeah
Idk who kaan is, hadi wanted to give new talents a chance to proof themselves
On the one hand it sucks these matches are best of 3
👍
Or do u mean daan
how's it looking for map 2
he also wanted to focus on owl
but if they were best of 5 we'd be here forever
match 2? wdym
Oh kk
like map 2?
yes i'm sleep deprived
kaan played on 2021 eternal as a fs
go easy
France need to get about 70m on point B of Gib
Oh, idk them
and then avalla decided to release getamazed 💀
avalla is an AWFUL gm but hard to blame her for it when the team was changed for budget issues
Who?
thats what ive heard
What?
i mean thats bc they were doing shit no?
avalla is eternals gm, worst in the league
so they signed like min contracts on na contenders players
nah eternals didnt suck with that roster, they just didnt have money coming in
they werent a top team or anything but werent a bottom feeder like now
they're up against spain
they were lackluster in the first stage despite adding glister on their team
yeah I know
and thats bc they had fucking jmac coaching them 💀
could be i cant remember clearly it was a while ago
i remember them being middle of the pack but i could be wrong
jmac and getamazed probably have very different philosophies and systems
it's not really gonna be a good chance to see how they're looking
spain netherlands gonna be a good series aswell
i'm predicting a roll tbh
wdym
ive heard that spain is looking decent in scrims
its contenders team vs contenders team
but netherlands is the better contenders team
netherlnads r favorites but its not gonna be a roll like italy france
i don't think it's gonna be as bad as like
paris didnt win a single match that stage
beligum uk
fuck
Netherlands at least have an ex-OWL player in their team
wrong reply
@rugged quest
I know no-one on Spain except Helv and Khenail
but i don't think netherlands is gonna struggle
is Helv good?
and also how to coach a winning team
yes
i'll be on god i've never heard of him
easily been one of the best MT in EU Contenders in the past
Yeah
if i remember correctly there are 4hours drops aswell
there is
but i'm like 4 hours deep and i've only got one reward
even the commentators are saying netherland has to throw if they want a match 3 💀
commentators are fucking clueless
watch ml7 stream him and cloudy are better analysts than the casters
these casters are plats that bet by like 2019 owwc results
its def gonna be a close series
im excited for canada vs us
tbh everyone sucking is good for you
you have a good chance of making it
mexico is WAAAAY worse than usa or canada but theyre still the 3rd best team
maybe they'll make it past qualifiers by the time hell freezes over
holland on top
i like the pharmercy
i dont
Pharmercy is ass and mostly only works vs uncoordinated teams 🗣️
And Echomercy is just the more cancer version
unless youre yazan
When did Yznsa play in OWL again
they tried to get him to owl for a reason
We’ll see how his pharmercy does vs UK, US, China or SK perhaps then
i think he can do pretty well in good pharah maps
not saying he will dominate the whole series or anything
first map predecided, 2nd map chosen by loser of first, 3rd chosen by winner of first
Didn’t he try to get signed but no one wanted him?
and the 2nd and 3rd maps have specific gamemodes&mappools they can choose from
I seem to recall some tweets to that effect
cheers
i have been told that yazan himself declined
im not a yazan fanatic
yeah so it looks like map 1 is Lijiang, map 2 is then either a hybrid or escort and then map 3 is push
Why tweet LFT OWL with your contact details and ask for RTs xd
not sure
some ksa yazan dickrider told me that yazan didnt want to join owl and ive lived in that belief ever since
Yeah I don’t think so
Far as I heard he doesn’t speak English very well
And is pretty toxic
But it’s all hearsay
kings row <3
he can comm in english
widow already swapped off
Do teams in owl use 
nah
yeah im pretty sure A10 is on gear
Why
not very gud
😡
with how versatile owl teams are ball isnt a good pick
But they still use monkey right?
monke is a top pick
🐹
i saw a lot of monke and ramm during MM
barf ur words back up lage
hey i didnt say i will eat my words
i said MIGHT
clearly not the same
🤓
what is this?
if netherlands can pick a brawl map
they can still totally win
they just got dominated in dive mirror
coloseo
coloseo is the best pushmap for brawl
h1ra going crazy
when is swedens next game?
im flabbergasted
well my Netherlands making it over France pred isn't off to the best start
tomorrow i think
yeah they have Finland tomorrow
what if neither team makes it
ah well rip lmao
spain just beat netherlands
spain on top ??
uk denmark and France will make it
could go either way with spain france netherlands
Tomorrow i think
not sure, they are in a weak group though
might have
Hello, i have a question. so is there a tournaments right now? I wanna play
There was an open sign up, but for a 5 man, not drop ins, afaik.
Do you get any rewards for watching World Cup?
i saw that you get drops from twitch but i didnt see anything else, so im assuming its only those
Really? I thought you get tokens from just watching any owl stream
i don’t think owwc and owl are the same tho
they don’t give owl tokens for wc as far as i know
https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/23969407/
it doesnt say anything about tokens
yup skins,icons, and sprays
Who is winning owwc
Korea
yeah, the skins
what would be the most troll team name ever
like u have
somebody from florida mayhem
nobody from edg
something from prx
The team
malaysia 2-0 singapore
new zealand 2-1 thailand
league and val i think
I am a bit confused regarding the world cup teams, like do they play only 1 tournament (world cup) per year, dont see any teams which were recently in midseason madness here but just countries,
new to ow esports, so dont know much about it.
yes they play one tourney each year
its world cup meant for international rep
owl is just pro play
they are two separate entities
ok, are the pro players playing in world cup or just randoms from that country ? also who is paying for a team which plays for 1 event in whole year ? 😅
most pros are koreans + na
World icon still bugged locked ? 
so weaker countries have t2 (contenders) or randoms
My twitch drops still bugged for the icon
got these drops even before world cup started 😅
zen and ram arent even from countries they were made
you could make an argument for zen nepal
you're fucking joking
how is malaysia losing to a team with a committee that imploded their own roster
Wc icon too ? Mine is locked bugged
I got these, so icon too I guess
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/916751710775541810/1121683122736599080/image.png
Nope icon is wc not pachimari
two on twitch one on yt
watching on twitch gives drops im not sure abt yt
from twitch drops page
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/916751710775541810/1121683796824182794/image.png
Yes I know but is bugged
I send twitch ss too was work cup icon at start
oh, if they change or fix, it will change in game auto as well I guess
oputo 
what did the Netherlands play
because this singapore roster us having fun

Nz better win this game
They don't. Maybe next match
Yeah that's what I'm saying
nz sweep 💯💯💯
NO PATIPHAN NO WIN
why is my boy going for soft dives in 5v5 💀
tracer and echo still rotating and he hard engages the backline
nah odp is fucking trolling
is this guy not in voice
I am supposed to kill the zarya bastion hanzo ana and mercy as queen
My team isnt helpping shit
And then my whole team will blame me
bro is ranting about his games in #esports-discussion 😭
HOLY FUCK
COLOURHEX CARRY
this man cannot do more
nz actually just overtime warriors 😭
LMFAOO
LETS GO NZ
Oh mb
英雄联盟 ODP VEGETABLE FEEDING [L9 Turbo Boost]?英雄联盟 SOLVE WORLD HUNGER [L9 Turbo 9 MEMBER ㅏ후어누어우누처ㅏㅇ KOREAN GOCHUJANG METHOD LEAKED
DRAWABLE
😐
please get colourhex a good team odp is fucking terrible 😭
I love that NZ lost, wouldn't want to be given the australia flag and an interview from some real nervous players bar chex
based webcam angle
great angle
but man
nz is fucking terrible
colourhex is literally the only player showing out
odp is a feeder and has zero comms
odp just looks like he cannot main tank
he's so bad man 😭
he hard dives backline while his tracer was still rotating
I thought I was watching harambe
i thought i was watching my own gameplay for a second 😭
anyways stream ended, more games coming up in 3 hours btw
its in like 1-2 hours
can't be that bad 
next game should be phi vs jap?
yup
maybe 😂😂😂
casted by english-korean based broadcast
return of changsik?
changsik and rascal are on the analyst desk
i'd just wait for them over on overwatch_kr channel
sick
if you want casters that speak english, just stay on whatever channel you're on now (contenders/playoverwach) and have it in the background
yeah
feels bad man
august and fin are uncoordinated asf
odp is like the tank version of malthel of this tournament
you could probably take any top od talent from any region to replace him and they'd do better than wtv tf i just watched on winston
OWLEL 491 3/8
🟥🟥🟩🟥
🟥🟥🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩✅
owlel.zusor.io
GOOD JOB JAE
THANK U THANK U 😁 😁
no
OWLEL 491 6/8
🟥🟥🟩🟥
🟩🟩🟩🟥
🟩🟩🟩🟥
🟩🟩🟩🟥
🟩🟩🟩🟥
🟩🟩🟩🟩✅
owlel.zusor.io
i am nothing if not consistent
6/8 every time
i just love it every single time when its a us player in the western region
i feel like it's been a us support like five days in a row
L
Are there
korea's not even playing today...
oh wait nvm
they just have weird ass colors
what in the pyongyang north korea are those colors man
no idea
maybe taipei
since its in between sea and kr
this is why brig is needed if you wanna run dive man
ana is just dead to an engage from sombra tracer
bro cant do shit on monkey man 😭
just play tracer sombra
echo is not the play
dives are so uncoordinated
you have to let your tank take in all the attention before you engage
such a quick map 💀
im changing nationalities
they're just not good on the dives
6 MINUTES ON THIRD
BRO LEFT THE GAME 💀
I just enjoy the noise made on the KR broadcast but jp broadcast clears too
40 meters???
starting today i am now an american
lol
maybe we should stick to valorant
42 seconds · Clipped by itsobiwankenobi · Original video "1일차|2023 오버워치 월드컵 APAC-A" by 오버워치 e스포츠
I can’t wait for Korea match
oh god korea
fielder and chiyo 
we're doomed 
yeah this team is kind of unfair lol
casually having Hanbin and FiNN on the bench as well
lol they couldn’t even name what sparkle was good at

Echo dupe
that's just their preferred hero lol
they gonna 1v1 to see whos better to play her?
as if they don't have enough issues facing SK lol
Korea is pretty much just atl
they have mutiny amongst themselves
it's more like last year Fuel + Lip + FiNN
guys i heard about sp9rk1e is he like one of the best dps players?
with Rush coaching as well
sparkle is a poor man's proper
Fr fr
no
Nope
I wonder if SK play some troll comps

Sadly
No lip proper duo
He has boosting history which Rush doesn't like
sparkle is rush's nepo baby 
Rush is bias
they'll change
Let lip cook
no sombra 
Yeah
actually not a troll comp from SK
Please run bastion
I thought lip would sombra
why is it because they can see their heroes?
Lip would be crazy on him
Not really
bastion is like one of the worst dps heroes ever
if not the worst
