lore-discussion

[restive flower]

A compilation of new reveals or tidbits from the book

[peak escarp]

there's nothing really new

it's just behind the scenes details

if you want to see what's in it just buy it yourself

[restive flower]

Im asking because I dont want to buy it

[peak escarp]

well tough luck

[past copper]

Something I’m curious about is who are the other members of Talon’s council?

Talon is overseen by an inner council of at least fifteen members,[12] of which five are currently known and active:
Doomfist (de facto leader)
Sanjay Korpal
Maximilien
Moira O'Deorain
Reaper
Antonio (deceased)
Vialli (deceased)

[limpid agate]

You answered your own question

[past copper]

I mean what can we expect from the rest of the members? Widowmaker, Sombra, and Sigma aren’t on the council, so I guess only trusted members are allowed

[limpid agate]

Widowmaker is not the type to lead. She's more like an attack dog.

No one trusts or likes Sombra.

Sigma doesn't know he's working for terrorists

[past copper]

It’s also because Widowmaker is kinda brainwashed, so they don’t want to take risks of her learning their secrets and turning against them if it happens.

[limpid agate]

She's not brainwashed

[past copper]

They broke her will, suppressed her personality, and reprogrammed her as a sleeper agent.

Sounds like brainwashing to me

[peak escarp]

brainwashing is a change in ideology

Widowmaker doesn't think she's doing the right thing or believe in Talon's goals

she kills because it makes her feel good

she still has free will and is allowed to go unsupervised

conditioning is more like how you train animals - reward good behaviors, punish bad behaviors

in Widowmaker's case, the bad behavior is expressing any emotion

[fluid sierra]

LOL that made me laugh

[peak escarp]

it's true though

[fluid sierra]

yea ik thats why its funny

[past copper]

I don’t see how it’s funny

Regardless, I’m kinda thinking of playing Bastion since in one of the behind the scenes, it was revealed that Bastion plays a major role in the story mode. I can think of a few good reasons, but the first being that he’s an Omnic from the First Omnic Crisis fighting against the new Omnic Crisis.

Can’t wait to see the tension between Reinhardt and Bastion

[limpid agate]

Its because it joins the Overwatch team.

We see a shot of Bastion on the dropship with Zarya

Bastion appears to be joining in liew of Torb

[past copper]

Yeah. I also noticed in a short part of the trailer that Reinhardt attacked Bastion the moment he saw it and Bastion fearfully turned into a turret, but didn’t shoot while Reinhardt stopped

My only assumption is that Torbjörn has been helping Bastion with his PTSD or he stopped his friend from attacking (hard to say without sound in the scene)

[peak escarp]

this scene

is probably followed by this scene

[past copper]

Yup. That’s the one

To be fair though, two things could be true at once.

Being in Torbjörn’s position, I wouldn’t want to be around something that will turn into a deadly war machine at the sound of something that reminds them of war

I’m sure Torbjörn would help his newest friend control himself

[peak escarp]

yeah

[desert yacht]

i'd think widow would have at least a little bit of loyalty to talon

Hello Baptiste. Think you can hide from Talon forever?
Talon could restore your family's empire.

i feel like she'd have no reason to say these lines otherwise

[feral musk]

She was brainwashed by Talon

[desert edge]

She was reconditioned, so I wouldn't say brainwashed

She is the one choosing to help Talon, I think that's pretty obvious fact at this point

[desert yacht]

this was in response to the conversation earlier about her not being brainwashed and how her actions are just a result of her only feeling emotion through killing

i don't know why she would recruit hanzo if she has no loyalty to talon other than the missions

and if she does have loyalty to talon beyond just talon giving her opportunities to kill, then that leans into brainwashing

recruiting more agents sounds like believing in talon's goals

[desert edge]

The thing is, she was definitely controlled by Talon as a sleeper agent when killing her husband

But she's the one who chose to return to Talon

All she cares about is killing

So she's simply helping them achieve their goals to help herself feel alive

“ When I was a girl, I had a fear of spiders. I was told they felt no emotion, that their hearts never beat. But I know the truth. At the moment of the kill, they are never more alive. „

[desert yacht]

she was sent back to kill him as her mission

then to return

i think my favorite scene from the comics is the dialogue between doomfist and reaper

right after the breakout

every single interaction is great

i like doomfist's non-chalant "i was delayed"

[peak escarp]

charismatic af

[desert yacht]

the beginning part boosted my opinion on doomfist so much

"i don't mind some ambition in my people"

"i hope you're not feeling sentimental"

"i need to get a lay of the land...
and some new clothes"

all great quotes

i think masquerade is my most viewed comic just because of the beginning

[peak escarp]

it is one of the top comics

[desert yacht]

it also painted widow as even more of a badass

the first thing she does after kicking a ton of ass in heels is check her appearance

i wish weekly challenges would have existed back when comics were released

masquerade skin for doom would be cool

they'd have to wait for archive or anniversary for that though

and doom already has 2 anniversary legendaries so that's unlikely

though i guess if they planned to make an archives skins for masquerade they would've done it by now instead of making the revolutionary skins

and giving reaper his for anniversary

so sombra doom and widow are probably out of luck

[peak escarp]

Widow already has Black Lily which is pretty similar

and Doomfist's masquerade outfit would probably need to be redesigned to fit his silhouette

[desert yacht]

i wonder what they're going to do for next archives

looks like they're already pretty low on material

[peak escarp]

probably nothing

[desert yacht]

i meant for skins

probably just gonna be another challenge mission for all 3 events

[peak escarp]

idk

[desert yacht]

it's turning into summer games where they're just giving country based skins

[past copper]

Well, the next event is Halloween Terror. Which is kinda a mix of both lore and game

Just gotta think of who has or hasn’t gotten a new look since the last seasonal event

Or hasn’t gotten a new one in some time.

What exactly was Reinhardt’s costume from the first Halloween comic?

Right, it was either an admiral or something revolutionary

Junkrat, Roadhog, Mercy, Bastion, Reinhardt, Torbjörn, and Zarya are all overdue

[peak escarp]

overdue doesn't mean anything - that's not how they decide who gets skins

they just make whatever ideas they have

[past copper]

Oh wait, forget Junkrat. Forgot he got Inferno skin

[limpid agate]

The only "lore" related skins for Halloween are Halloween costumes

Or things in the Junkenstein cannon

Unless you include defaults, the only characters missing Junkenstein costumes are Hanzo and Genji.

Hanzo being the acceptable default

Oh, and Ashe/Baptiste/Ana

Quite a few actually

The Gunslinger - Van Helsing
The Soldier - Soldier 1776
The Archer - Default debatably
The Alchemist -

The Viking - Viking
The Monk - Cultist
The Countess - Comtesse
The Swordsman -

The Shieldmaiden - Shieldmaiden
The Will-o-Wisp - Will-o-Wisp

The Outlaw -
The Renegade - Pirate debatably

[limpid agate]

We're also missing King Reinhardt, and for the party we are missing only Admiral Reinhardt

[desert yacht]

1776 is a stretch, no?

well when did frankenstein take place actually

[peak escarp]

Frankenstein was written in 1817, so 1776 would be a bit old if that's what you're thinking

but I don't think that's relevant to the skins

[desert yacht]

i guess it isn't too much of a stretch

late 1700s

[limpid agate]

Frankenstein is set in the 18th century

Most of the story is told in the past tense

So 1776 is even closer to the actual year of Frankenstein

[past copper]

I still don’t know why Genji didn’t get his skin from Junkenstein

Maybe it just wasn’t flashy enough to be made a skin or something

[valid terrace]

Halloween is the next event on the block, maybe this will be the year they add it

[past copper]

Eh, I don’t think it’s likely. Blizzard keeps a bit of a pattern where they add skins to heroes that haven’t had any in some time and Genji just got his first last year for Halloween

I honestly don’t know what skin someone like Roadhog or Bastion could have. Though, is the classic monster The Blob out of the question

For Roadhog

[keen summit]

Widow? Like that pattern gets broken by widow thos year

[hasty basalt]

talon probably killed her ability to feel emotions in normal ways...and turnend it somehow that way that killing triggers her emotional side as a last thing....that she feels nothing is not true so....see the christmas comic at hubbys grave and that she thinks about him sometimes at a match start....and she defends him against anas mocking that he was a idiot to love her

and that spiders feel alive when they kill is for sure a lie...widow may think that way but spiders act how their instinct tells them...i would say they feel not much killing prey to survive.....

[spark token]

whos briggs mom

[hasty basalt]

torbs wife

[spark token]

whot

he has a wife?

seems about right

so

hm

[hasty basalt]

[warm gyro]

What overwatch character has commited the most war crimes?

[peak escarp]

how do you define war crimes?

[warm gyro]

any crimes committed during a war. a very loose definition

[peak escarp]

well, only Soldier, Reaper, Ana, Torbjorn, Reinhardt and Zarya have fought in a war, so that narrows it down

[warm gyro]

Reaper is #1 easily but excluding him who else

[peak escarp]

idk

we don't have any detail on what they did during the war

[desert edge]

Honestly, there's a high chance none of them committed a single war crime

[limpid agate]

@warm gyro None of them.

Reaper is not "#1 easily"

He hasn't commit any war crimes

[rancid egret]

you can’t really commit war crimes on robots when they aren’t seen as a race of people anyways

[past copper]

What about Roadhog?

He was involved during the incident that caused the Australian Outback to become radioactive after he and others attacked the Omnium

[peak escarp]

Roadhog wasn't in a war

it was more of a guerrilla operation

[past copper]

Technically, that in on itself was Australia’s own war

[limpid agate]

That's not what technically means

[past copper]

Mostly because of what happened during the Omnic Crisis

Honestly though, can you really blame most of these heroes who have some bad history with Omnics

I’d say it’s hard to trust machines no matter what after they had tried to kill humanity

[peak escarp]

except it wasn't all omnics - there are civilian omnics who weren't involved in the war

it's like hating all Germans/Russians/Japanese because of WWII

[past copper]

Exactly. It’s Overwatch’s own version of racism. But against AI robots instead of humans

[peak escarp]

doesn't mean it's justified

[past copper]

True

[limpid agate]

I would still argue its a false equivalency

[past copper]

It’s one things against Omnics like Bastion, because people know what a Bastion was built for. But against Omnics who were not made for war, it’s just blind racism

Reaper for example seems pretty ignorant towards them himself

[limpid agate]

Reaper is a bad example

Reaper hates everyone

[past copper]

Well, there is Torbjörn before meeting Bastion.

Think Junkrat and Roadhog are full on racist towards Omnics along with the rest of Junkertown

Still, forming equality between humans and Omnics is getting difficult

With Mondatta’s assassination and now Null Sector’s invasion, relations between humans and Omnics is gonna get even worse then they were before

[peak escarp]

that's what Doomfist is going for

[past copper]

Yeah, but now during NS’s attack, it looks Talon wanted to take the opportunity to try and kill Zenyatta next. Clearly, their plans are threatened by the Shambali

[peak escarp]

but Zenyatta isn't with the Shambali anymore

he left

he's on a pilgrimage in India now

[past copper]

Well, I cannot think of any other reason Widowmaker and Sombra would be sent to try and kill him

I don’t think Zenyatta has done anything personal to warrant Talon’s attention

[peak escarp]

neither can I

so we'll have to wait and see

[past copper]

Yup. Whatever it is, Talon seems hellbent on killing him by any means necessary

[worthy rose]

would it be a stunt for public attention perhaps?

[lunar otter]

Mcree's bamf belt what does it mean?

[iron plume]

"War crimes" aren't "crimes committed during a war"

but back on topic-

Zenyatta has connections to Genji and Symmetra
and they're both plausible avenues for Talon to get onto him

[past copper]

Well, Symmetra maybe. Sanjay may not have taken too kindly to Zenyatta filling Symmetra’s head with his wisdom

But, keep in mind Zenyatta was also trained by Mondatta. Meaning he could become a threat to Talon if he takes on his master’s former role as leader of the Shambali and tries to bring together humans and Omnics

This is only a possibility though, but it is within Talon’s playbook to try and eliminate potential enemies before they can retaliate. Such as taking out former agents of Overwatch

[past copper]

Speaking of lore, seems we’re gonna have to say goodbye to McCree in some way. Either the character or name

[dry swallow]

I hope not

[peak escarp]

not likely

[past copper]

So much lore is gonna have to change surrounding him

And all because of a freaking name

[dry swallow]

Blame echo as to why mccree didn’t get to be in the zero hour cinematic

[peak escarp]

if they were going to change anything they would have done it already

like they did in WoW

[past copper]

Well, that damned lawsuit is putting them in a bad position

It’s either change his name, remove the character, or kill McCree in OW2

[peak escarp]

or ignore it

because most people don't know his name comes from a dev

[past copper]

Yeah, they can’t ignore this one. Everyone now knows where his name comes from. Media loves to cover this kinda crap

[dry swallow]

Why are they going to remove mccree

[peak escarp]

they're not going to remove McCree

[past copper]

Because of a dev who he was named after being charged in that recent sexual harassment lawsuit

[peak escarp]

he's not one of the ones being charged

he's just one that was involved in a text chat that was leaked

the most he's guilty of are some inappropriate comments

[past copper]

Yes, but also because of the Cosby Suite with that chat

Either way, I don’t want anything to change for McCree. No removal or forced killing off and especially no name change

[peak escarp]

then why bring it up?

[past copper]

Because, it’s pretty concerning for the game, lore, and everything about Overwatch

[peak escarp]

it's unlikely to happen

that dev has already left the company

[past copper]

People are aware of this, but because of the new era with equality laws becoming stricter, people tend to abuse getting their way

Regardless, I’d imagine Blizzard will come up with something. It’s not their first rodeo with lawsuits

[limpid agate]

They're not going to remove or rename McCree

McCree is McCree

[past copper]

Even still, let’s hope nothing happens to McCree. There’s waaaay too much lore in the game, comics, and videos to change if they did and that’s just too big of a hassle for anyone

[limpid agate]

Its not something worth discussing

They're not going to remove McCree

Its not on the menu of choices

[desert edge]

Even if they did, it'll never be referred to as the new name. it's mcright click or nothing

Plus people would be more mad if it was changed

[limpid agate]

Its not like the WoW change, where it was just some random meaningless NPC

This is one of the more iconic characters from the game

[desert yacht]

ana

has probably commit war crimes

chemicals n shit

[peak escarp]

she didn't use chemicals in the war

[desert yacht]

it's an armed conflict, no?

[peak escarp]

yes

she was just a sniper though

she didn't use chemicals until after she "died" and became a vigilante

[desert yacht]

she is currently in an armed conflict

and is using chemical warfare

[peak escarp]

an armed conflict is not a war

[desert yacht]

i was under the impression that war crimes applied to armed conflicts

[peak escarp]

an action carried out during the conduct of a war that violates accepted international rules of war.

A war crime is an act that constitutes a serious violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility. Examples of crimes include intentionally killing civilians or prisoners, torturing, destroying civilian property, taking hostages, performing a perfidy, raping, using child soldiers, pillaging, declaring that no quarter will be given, and seriously violating the principles of distinction, proportionality, and military necessity.

if you do these things outside of wartime, they're just regular crimes

[limpid agate]

Ana was a normal sniper back then

With a rifle that shoots bullets

Her current gear is only post-Overwatch

[past copper]

What about the conflicts in Australia? Technically, Junkertown is filled with stuff from both the Omnic Crisis and the attack on the Omnium factory

So, I wouldn’t be surprised if things happened there that amount to war crimes

[limpid agate]

@past copperAgain

That's not what war crime means

That's just as much of a war crime as 9/11

Which isnt

[desert edge]

A war crime is something illegal specifically to combat

So you can't say killing someone is a war crime

Taking hostages is a war crime

Destruction of property is a war crime, as long as it's done during a war

Ryu, do some research before actually making comments here, it seems you haven't done that whatsoever

[lunar otter]

Anyone know what The Bamf stands for?

[valid terrace]

Bad ass mother f***er

For McCree's buckle

Or some pg equivalent

Some skins change the first letter to be various things

[rancid egret]

i think the gambler changes it to holder/holden

[low sail]

holdem, like "texas holdem"

[iron plume]

It's referencing the phrase "know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em"

[hasty basalt]

only one making drama out of it so far : YOU

[pastel dust]

What's the purpose of Genji's mask/visor? He seems to be able to take it off in Dragons, but that's the only occasion in lore where that happens. Since he seems to be able to take it off without trouble, I wonder if it serves as more of a tactical visor like Soldier 76's (With different abilities) and less of a respritory system of sorts like Darth Vader's.

[worthy rose]

I think it’s just he don’t want people to see his face bc of hanzo it all scarred

[pastel dust]

Well, by the time of Zero Hour he came to terms with his robotic body and who he is now but still wore the mask

[worthy rose]

Ik but maybe he’s still embarrassed idk

Or just don’t want people to see

[hasty basalt]

well himself may be on a ok point with himself now...but if you have like me worked with people that got very badly burned (one of them almost burned in a hit tank in Iraq) you know how people can react to this.....not even meant bad but of course sometimes you are very shocked first time you see someone surviving that.....and maybe he wants to stay away from this reactions

[past copper]

Two things could be true at once. Genji prefers to hide his scars and his visor could be similar to Soldier’s. Possibly a first generation version while Soldier’s is an upgraded version.

I remember he doesn’t have a visor in Blackwatch, while he looked to still be getting used to his new life, but that changes just before Overwatch is shut down as we see in Storm Rising

Also, only other time he removed his visor was in the Reflections comic to write to Mercy

[hasty basalt]

i think its bit of both

hes used to a visor etc now and stays with that or somekind of that

[past copper]

Speaking of Reflections, I’m kinda interested in learning more about the family Reaper was watching from the shadows and who they are to him. Wife remarried? Or son with his own wife and son? Or something else?

[limpid agate]

We dont know which

[past copper]

Eh, I hope they’re brought up in whatever Blizzard has planned for Reaper. Either another short story or in the game.

[peak escarp]

my guess is it's his daughter and her husband and son

[past copper]

Maybe. Though, either daughter or son is possible, we just might find out at some point. I’d honestly want a Reaper short story since we have so little lore to the villains of Overwatch

If they did give Reaper one, I’d hope it be what happened to Gabriel after he “killed” Jack and destroyed the HQ and who brought him into Talon

[crisp hearth]

Reaper is like evil as hell but he most likely wouldn’t harm his family

[icy mango]

He could with enough anger

And rage

[crisp hearth]

Is there really a reason he would be mad at his family

[icy mango]

No he could be angry by something and he might not be thing straight and he might snap and go mad

Just a theory

Tbh probably wont happen

[desert yacht]

reaper after finding out that his wife was married to an overwatch agent

reaper after finding out that he was an overwatch agent

[crisp hearth]

After killing all ex overwatch members reaper remembers he himself is a ex overwatch member

[hasty basalt]

im kinda impressed that hes still so jealous about all that that he hunts them for talon....something has him changed drasticaly

[worn island]

If anyone's manipulating him it's moira but I don't see her as the type to care about something like that

[past copper]

I question if he’s being manipulated at all

He seems to be a little too stubborn and hardheaded to be manipulated by anyone

[peak escarp]

I dont know if Moira has the skillset to manipulate anyone

[peak escarp]

he's not doing it for Talon, he hunts them because of a personal vendetta

[worn island]

still impressive how much he is dedicated to it

[rancid egret]

it’s not all that surprising though

[past copper]

Maybe, but he’s smart enough to know when to retreat. Such as Winston forcing him to retreat with what information he was able to steal

[covert echo]

Was he able to steal it? Because winston smashed the thing.

[peak escarp]

he was able to get part of the list

[past copper]

I would say that Sombra should’ve been involved in that mission, but that animated short came out right around the time the game released and before she was created

But, I’m sure it’s hinted that she’s the one who built the device for Reaper

[peak escarp]

probably

I just figured they needed to use the device in the first place because Athena either has unbreakable firewalls or isn't connected to the external network

Sombra couldn't hack in remotely, so Reaper went in to connect the device that creates a connection for Sombra

[limpid agate]

Either way

Reaper would be there too

[past copper]

Well, I’m sure Reaper could handle most other agents. He just wasn’t expecting one to be present in an abandoned Overwatch base. If so, he probably wouldn’t have gone in without a partner since his team failed

[limpid agate]

Sombra wasn't a hacker when they wrote the short

The short was being made back when she was still a knife thrower

[past copper]

I still laugh when one of them gets thrown through the window and Reaper groans

[peak escarp]

he wouldn't have shown up with Talon grunts if he expected the base to be abandoned

he went in expecting Winston

[limpid agate]

Which is also why they had anti gorilla tasers on their rifles

That weapon would be useless against most threats

It was also useless against Winston

[past copper]

The irony is that they became useless all because one Talon Trooper slipped on a banana peel

[limpid agate]

Yes

[past copper]

That said, I kinda hope there will new Talon enemies in Overwatch 2. Null Sector can’t be the only ones with multiple units

[peak escarp]

I expect they'll have unique unit types too

[past copper]

I don’t want to jinx it, but I do fear a barrier type of Talon enemy

[peak escarp]

the only Talon character we've seen using a shield was Mauga, but they'll probably ditch that idea for him as a hero

[past copper]

The hardest one to deal with is the Heavy Assault, so I’m afraid to imagine one with mini-guns and a barrier

[peak escarp]

if the grunts start having barriers, that could hint at a greater partnership with Vishkar

[past copper]

True.

Honestly, it make more sense for either Trooper or Enforcer to get barriers. They’re faster and need the most protection compared to others

I kinda think it might already be hinted at that Vishkar has had a hand with Null Sector. They could have possibly given certain units barriers or it was them who designed the flying factories

[peak escarp]

someone had a theory that the Puller unit's tractor beam was a weaponized form of Sigma's gravitational research

[past copper]

That would be a terrifying thought.

That thing scared me just watching the trailer

Though, if it’s not that one, it could be that unnamed unit in the concept art.

That floating round one with three legs

[desert yacht]

ehh wouldn't make that much of a difference

its weak spot is already on its backside so you have one person gain aggro and kite it while the others shoot its back

but that isn't lore oops

[limpid agate]

Disagree

It seems to be a common enough tech

Especially as seen in Hero of Numbani

[peak escarp]

I'm not saying that's the only thing it could be

but if that's the way they wanted to go

it would make sense

[compact cobalt]

Nah we need more main tanks

I hope they make him one

Although with one tank I don’t think main and off tanks will exist

[peak escarp]

they won't

[peak escarp]

roles don't have any basis in lore anyway

[past copper]

Eh, I kinda hope it becomes diverse with heroes roles.

Doomfist and Bastion need to be added to Tank hands down

[mortal rock]

that sounds like it could make them too obnoxious

[past copper]

They’re already obnoxious as is to me

[mortal rock]

too bad their not

[past copper]

If not both, maybe at least Doomfist. We all saw how he was kicking the Overwatch team’s asses in his animated short.

He was eating Tracer’s shots like they were candy

[mortal rock]

yeah but gameplay/= lore

technically sombra shouldn’t be able to stop winston from getting angry but it’s all for gameplay sake

[peak escarp]

if heroes were assigned roles according to the lore, there wouldn't be a tank class and Lucio would be a dps

[past copper]

True. I’ve played DPS Lúcio’s. They’re a pain in the ass

[mortal rock]

and almost every off support wold also be dps making it irrelevant

[past copper]

Well, we still don’t know what new heroes are to come. Specifically Tanks (Brawers) and Supports

Though, unless you got some coming like Mercy, the Supports will probably still be used as dps

[peak escarp]

at least all the other supports have canonically healed

Lucio has not

[past copper]

True

[mortal rock]

oh I didn’t think his healing was canon since him even fighting doesn’t make sense, then again i’m not big on the lore so i’m not 100% sure

[past copper]

Though, I don’t think we’ve actually seen Zenyatta, Moira, or Brigitte heal outside the game

We did see Moira use her killing method though, so I guess

[peak escarp]

Ana: uses biotic rounds/grenades, bad at first aid
Baptiste: uses biotic grenades, works as a medic
Brigitte: first aid for Reinhardt
Lucio: just a freedom fighter, no healing involved
Mercy: is a medical doctor
Moira: is a geneticist (okay that's still not healing, but at least it's medicine-adjacent)
Zenyatta: psychological healing/"omnic energy" healing

[mortal rock]

k thanks

[past copper]

Just throwing this out there, but if Genji’s getting a ranged ult, wouldn’t the Talon Assassin get something like that too

[iron plume]

Why would they

[past copper]

If they bring that back. We haven’t seen the Talon Assassin in any trailers

Well, because the Assassin only attacks with close range strikes and since Blizzard is trying to make the game feel more real with sounds, movement, and actions it would be dangerous for an Assassin to appear and attack you, because it’s team could shoot her too

[iron plume]

I don't understand where you're getting any of this from

"feeling more real" in the sense of visuals and audio isn't the same as being realistic

Why would her team shoot her

[past copper]

They did show what happens to other enemies when they get hit or killed. Mostly with Null Sector bots flying into each other and damaging themselves

[iron plume]

That's not shooting them

I'm pretty sure it won't have friendly fire

[past copper]

Just saying the Assassin is the only Talon enemy without any range. But, like I said, she wasn’t in the Talon concept art for OW2, so maybe she’s getting taken out or something

The Enforcer isn’t shown either, but considering the damage they can put out in a few well timed shots, they’re probably not getting taken out. Especially since they’re the only Talon enemies with shot guns

[past copper]

Anyway, side thought, doesn’t it kinda change Mei’s character if her freezing is removed. We’ve actually seen her use it in Zero Hour, so now I question taking it away.

[peak escarp]

being able to freeze enemies isn't a character trait

it's just a weapon ability

[mortal rock]

it’s her gun ability, she still have her cryo freeze which is the important part of her character and she still has snowball so like

[cosmic crest]

Why is cryo freeze more important?

It's probably one of the few abilities I would say is a contender for not being cannon.

[past copper]

Eh, I kinda think they’re taking away for that talent ability Mei’s getting. Freeze one enemy with cryo freeze or freeze yourself and freeze all enemies once you unfreeze

I kinda think it’s just one of those balance issues Blizzard was talking about

[limpid agate]

She can still freeze enemies

[past copper]

Not with her primary fire

[valid terrace]

It is her primary fire

[limpid agate]

Also, this is lore discussion

Not gameplay discussion

[compact cobalt]

Has mei ever actually frozen something with her gun canonically

I don’t think that’s something she can do

[cosmic crest]

She built it for that specific purpose in Rise and Shine.

[past copper]

She froze an Omnic in Zero Hour

[rancid egret]

it was less of the freeze that we see in game though

it was more like her right click froze where it landed

[mortal rock]

I know it’s almost 100% not canon, but what I meant for it’s important to her character and her story more than that her gun freezes people

[cosmic crest]

Doesn’t really answer my question

Why is it more important?

[valid terrace]

The most important things to her character and story are her kindness and perseverance

[rancid egret]

yea mei would be mei if she had a flamethrower or genji shuriken

what she uses isn’t what she is

[limpid agate]

No, she wouldn't.

[rancid egret]

lmfao mei isn’t mei because of her gun

that’s all i’m saying

[limpid agate]

Mei wouldn't be Mei if she had a flamethrower.

Mei is a kind polar-based climate researcher (not a soldier, she has no combat experience or training) who built all of her own equipment to further study as well as save herself from her crisis in Antarctica.

Not only is her gun something that was core to her own self-rescue efforts in Rise and Shine

Its also a representment of her kind personality, as she has a strictly non-lethal weapon that she has used to freeze and study animals before.

Plus with her overall design with a winter jacket in all weathers, thick pants, and Snowball, she is very much designed with ice and cold.

Giving her a flamethrower or shurikens goes against all of that.

Most of the characters weapons are a large part of their identity

[rancid egret]

but not who they are

she was someone before she started using it as a weapon

[limpid agate]

Its not their whole identity. No one claimed that it was.

it’s important to her character and her story more than that her gun freezes people

They're saying its an important part of her character and story.

And that is true.

The gun is a large part of what makes Mei Mei

If you gave Mei a flamethrower, Mei wouldn't be Mei

Not the Mei we know

[past copper]

Exactly.

Giving Mei a flamethrower would be like giving Reinhardt a gun

It just wouldn’t fit the kinda person they are

[plain dagger]

yeit would be like if torbjorn had snowball

[limpid agate]

That's enough of that.

[compact cobalt]

Rein with a gun as an alternate fire?!?!

[civic dust]

Machine gun

[limpid agate]

I said that's enough of that

This is lore discussion

[crisp tulip]

What caused Reyes to become Reaper and why specifically did he join Talon?

[peak escarp]

we don't know yet

[past copper]

Honestly, I think it’s an envy thing

Gabriel was the Strike-Commander of Overwatch during the First Omnic Crisis, but after the war, Jack became the new Strike-Commander

While Gabriel was bumped down to leader of the secretive Overwatch branch, Blackwatch

[peak escarp]

that's been debunked

Reyes was fine with Jack being strike commander

he didn't want the red tape and restrictions

Blackwatch was his way of being in command without oversight

[past copper]

Well, it’s still a possibility, but could go deeper. Honestly, Gabriel kinda strikes me as the type who’d wanted Overwatch to stay a military task force more then anything

But that’s just me

[crisp tulip]

I see

Why does reaper wear a mask and what does he look like under the mask

[crimson veldt]

I think it is some Deadpoolasque stuff. The Goverment did treatments on Reaper and Soldier, but my guess is Reaper reacted badly to it and got changed so he is wearing the mask. plus psychological warfare. Think of the stories surviving enemies tell of a phantom with a skull mask coming from the dark with no sound killing your whole team.

[limpid agate]

@crimson veldt That's not what happened

Reyes wears the mask because his body is deformed

It is most likely tied to the Swiss HQ incident that left him for dead

As well as a mix of his various experimentations from the SEP and Moira that is keeping him alive and in a constant state of suffering.

You can see his skin in his default outfit. Its pale white like a corpse.

[limpid agate]

Its not a possibility

It being debunked means its been debunked

It means its no longer a possibility

[crimson veldt]

thanks for clarification.

[mortal rock]

nah bc he only wears the mask after the fight, he was a super soldier for a while and didn’t wear a mask

[limpid agate]

He still is a super soldier.

Moira didn't undo the experiments from the Soldier Enhancement program

[mortal rock]

I know, I was saying while he was serving under overwatch while being a super soldier, he didn’t wear a mask, which makes it reasonable to assume that the enhancement program didn’t cause his deformity, moira and the battle did

[limpid agate]

That's what I said

[past copper]

You know, there were talks about Overwatch getting a series from Netflix, but after that, silence

Don’t know if that’s actually gonna happen or not, but it would certainly add to the lore a great deal

[peak escarp]

it would be great

and I think it's likely to happen eventually, just not any time soon

[past copper]

Well, I kinda think they’re waiting until the game drops for Overwatch 2 first

Work with the story mode in that and possibly hero missions to make episodes for an Overwatch series

[low sail]

crazy that every few weeks "why is gabriel reyes reaper/the way he is?" is asked and yet overwatch/blizz hasn't done a backstory comic or cinematic for him. even a current cinematic that shows a glimpse into how he lives with himself perceives his actions/his motives would really satiate A LOT of people

[desert edge]

Actually, about something someone said a while back

About soldier joining Overwatch

Heard a voiceline earlier of Winston saying that someone needs to take Jack down

So yeah, there's more proof for that topic

[peak escarp]

"why is gabriel reyes reaper/the way he is?" and "why did he join Talon" are probably really big plot points that they're saving for a big reveal

[desert edge]

Probably OW2

Would be nice if that had archives like events

Like, I'd prefer them to be year round

But it would do wonders to have more missions set in the past

And your point is?

[topaz dome]

they are gay

[young brook]

everyone in game is gay

[peak escarp]

everyone knows Soldier and Tracer are gay

this is old news

[desert edge]

Yeah, I don't see the point in it, actually. Keep this to lore discussion, not just stating that they're gay

[peak escarp]

because the only people who point it out are usually trolls

[young brook]

[desert edge]

Honestly, you're sounding more like a troll with that explanation.

[young brook]

i mean

shes very right

[worthy rose]

Imma keep things a buck 50 with you, I didn't know Soilder was gay, I just thought it was nothing but a popular idea amongst the fans, not an actual confirmed piece of lore 😂

[peak escarp]

oh

well, you're welcome

[worthy rose]

It's definitely nice to see LGBTQ characters who aren't just that and outside of being LGBTQ are an actual piece of cardboard, Soilders his own character, who oh!, Just happens to be gay, as it should be.

[peak escarp]

agreed

[past copper]

I honestly couldn’t care less about a person’s sexuality in Overwatch. That kinda thing just tells me the team at Blizzard is taking all kinda of people into consideration to create a great universe

Honestly, I can’t think of any other game, show, movie, etc that does that. So that’s at least a huge positive side to making great characters with even greater stories behind them

[worthy rose]

Yeah, it's like making a big deal out of someone's hair color, or the fact they have 10 fingers

[desert edge]

I mean, tbf most people have 8

[crisp tulip]

What soldier is gay??

Never knew that

[compact cobalt]

changes pfp pic

[hasty basalt]

no you like to point out stuff thats totaly known and under normal thinking people not a problem at all....not sure what your goal is here but for sure not just interest in LGBTQ. maybe you just sound wrong but thats the way i read it

[hasty basalt]

well thats the problem of the " mp shooter dont need lore " faction i think

[desert edge]

I mean yeah, no character needed lore, it's just adding to their characters

It's improving upon the world in unnecessary ways

Not that it's a bad thing

[hasty basalt]

that

[hasty basalt]

and then that???

[desert edge]

What? I said it's unnecessary, not that it's bad

I mean, at the end of the day, none of it affects gameplay and is therefore not necessary to OW as it is first and foremost a 6 v 6 competitive game

[hasty basalt]

lore is never bad

your fault ignoring it

[desert edge]

I'm not ignoring it?

I have both books and haven't exactly stayed away from the lore

[hasty basalt]

THAT people is gaming community 2021...STORY ? MEH i dont need it WHAT character X is THAT or this...omg i didnt know why they dont tell me kekw

[desert edge]

Dude, I like the lore

doesn't mean it's necessary

[hasty basalt]

wrong it is

even PUBG has a very small background story what ever now

and im not talking about you i talk about gaming at all

people never wanted stories in BF games they said the stories in BF V are bad now 2042 has no story to focus on MP and they want the story back

no wonder devs start to give a shit about the fans xd

[desert edge]

Dude, I just said it's not necessary, not that I don't want it.
Regardless of that, this isn't the place for you to vent on the ideologies of the fans of shooter games, especially since you're comparing it to a game that has nothing to do with this server.

[hasty basalt]

i said im talking about that topic in general a moment dont freak out

[iron plume]

This is getting unnecessarily hostile

[hasty basalt]

all fine

its monday morning

[chrome swift]

so like, im mulling over voicelines

and wondering

when in the fuck are the writers gonna figure out what the hell hanzo is doin

[chrome swift]

[hasty basalt]

he is a mercenary he is doing all the shit people pay him for

[chrome swift]

well yEAh but i mean with him either not wanting to be associated w the clan and hanamura or not xd

[iron plume]

There is no clan anymore, the Shimadas were destroyed

The clan that took over, Hashimoto, is worse to the people and Hanzo doesn't like them

Apparently he still has a feeling of duty to the people of Hanamura

[chrome swift]

That makes more sense than how I heard it xd

[rancid egret]

i want to see him join overwatch with genji

[chrome swift]

god me too

or atleast like

hangout with genji.,.,.like 2 normal people..,for 5 minutes. let the man redeem himself damn LMFAO

[iron plume]

He’s probably not joining

[rancid egret]

yeah it seems like hanzo doesn’t care about overwatch or talon just his own path

[cosmic crest]

Because there is no point to it.

Don't bother stating obvious facts that aren't relevant and everyone knows.

[iron plume]

That's enough

[chrome swift]

[iron plume]

Again
That's enough.

[worthy rose]

Sorry for asking here.. Are all the comics digital only? Or are they available in physical copies also? Thanks!

[iron plume]

There's physical collections of comics

[worthy rose]

Oh, neat. I'll look online then.

[iron plume]

search for overwatch anthology

[worthy rose]

I found some. Are only some available in physical copies?

Oh okay, thanks!

[iron plume]

No

All comics released so far are available digitally and for free

The only paid content are books – two novels and some supplemental stuff like the cookbook and art books

[worthy rose]

What are the novels called? I like physical books and stuff!

[iron plume]

Hero of Numbani and Deadlock Rebels

[worthy rose]

Okay, thanks a lot!

[hushed cairn]

quick question what happend to efi????

[iron plume]

Nothing much
She's still working on improving Orisa

[past copper]

I kinda feel we might see the characters who don’t join Overwatch or Talon in the story mode of the game, but possibly only to make cameos

Kinda like what we saw from the Reflections comic where we saw what the heroes were doing for the holidays

[iron plume]

they've said that not everyone will be in the story mode at all

[past copper]

Though, I’m kinda holding out a little hope that Hanzo and Symmetra become involved in the story. Hanzo after finally choosing a side and Symmetra, because one of her colleagues is a member of Talon

[iron plume]

but there's probably going to be some people who join up for a bit

[past copper]

Well, I didn’t mean be playable. I just meant make a short appearance. Like watching the news as Null Sector attacks a city or something

[limpid agate]

That's a pointless cameo

Which, if its in-game engine cinematics, can be more difficult than you think

Depending on how its scripted

Like, if you want a cinematic that shows Junkrat and Roadhog at a bar watching tv, that bar would need to physically exist in the map.

[past copper]

Eh, I guess that’s kinda true

[limpid agate]

You can always make a copout, make a room with 3 walls that exists just for the one scene

But then you permanently have this random room from a different country on your map

[past copper]

True. I still kinda think it’s possible for Hanzo, Symmetra, and Orisa to make an appearance. Maybe they won’t join Overwatch, but they have their reasons to fight

Heck, as much as I wish it, I’d like to see Orisa remember Doomfist and what he did to her, but I don’t think that would happen

Mostly because Orisa is kinda like the Baymax (Big Hero 6) of Overwatch

[rancid egret]

i don’t think orisa would “remember” doomfist because efi has specifically programmed her

she was made to stop fist and if possible, do it peacefully

[limpid agate]

Orisa

Orisa was heavily teased in her novel to be making an appearance

Where she and Efi are taking a "sojourn" abroad for a few days.

[limpid agate]

She does remember Doomfist

She remembers who she was before Efi made her personality

[rancid egret]

lol that’s gruesome but i was going to say that to me orisa would make sense to join because she said she was supposed to model after rein

[limpid agate]

She's probably not going to join

Just appear for a few missions

Since she says they'll be going right back home after

[past copper]

Yeah, but I’d think people would still view her as member of Overwatch

At least maybe an honorary member

Though, I’d think it depends on where Null Sector is invading

I recall someone saying they’re attacking major cities around the globe. Paris, Rio de Janeiro, New York City, Toronto, Moscow, Tokyo, Cairo, London

We know for sure 4 of these maps, but I think we would all like to see these others

[worthy rose]

Now I'm imagining that scene where Baymax tries to kill the guy, but with Orisa joy, that was a very cool scene btw

[limpid agate]

To be more specific, what we know for sure is:

• Paris (not in the campaign, Zero Hour)
• Rio
• Toronto
• Gothenburg

So 3 of those. 2 in gameplay.

India was shown to be Talon

We didn't see who we fight in Monte Carlo, but that is presumably also Talon

The rest of the maps werent shown in the campaign yet, as far as I am aware

[compact cobalt]

Ah classic my message got deleted

[past copper]

Right. I forgot Gothenburg. It is Talon in India and I think it might be Talon in Monte Carlo because wasn’t that where Doomfist and Widowmaker went to meet Max?

In that casino?

[peak escarp]

yep

[past copper]

Yeah, I thought so.

That makes me think Talon has a presence there in some way, much like in Rialto

[peak escarp]

Max owns the casino

[past copper]

Ah. Then a Talon presence isn’t impossible. They could be using the casino as a base of sorts.

It’ll certainly be an interesting map in Overwatch

[peak escarp]

I want to know if there's any link between Talon/Max and the MEKA pilot Casino

Casino's mech is called La Princese Sereine

which is the title used for female royals of Monaco

also, Monaco is the home of the Monaco Grand Prix F1 race, and Casino is the only MEKA pilot who isn't a gamer - he's an F1 racer

so there's huge potential there for Max and/or Talon to be one of Casino's sponsors

[past copper]

Hmm. That’s an interesting thought. After all, the MEKA May have few sponsors given their young but skilled pilots.

Plus, it could be a way for Talon to keep tabs on the MEKA and could fit into the theory that it was Talon who sent the early Gwishin

[peak escarp]

D.Va has sponsor stickers all over her mech

[past copper]

I don’t believe that theory though, people just thought because of the colors on those tentacled Omnics that attacked too soon in Shooting Star

[peak escarp]

it's a weak theory

[past copper]

Yeah. I kinda just think it’s just the Gwishin adapting faster then the MEKA force is prepared for. Something the Omnics did against the Crusaders during the war

Which is still worrying. First some of the Omniums from the crisis are still active, then Null Sector starts a global invasion, and Talon somehow fits into all of this in their own missions

This story is gonna be big, I just know it.

Kinda hoping we go to South Korea and Russia to shut down the Omniums for good

[worthy rose]

I could see Max's casino being a capture and hold map

Depending on how big the place actually is

[peak escarp]

it's a payload map

[worthy rose]

Daaaaamn, The joint is that big? Max has got stacks

[past copper]

It’s kinda the first map where you escort the payload uphill

The payload is also pretty cool. A hover F1 car

[desert edge]

Wait wait

It's an F1 car? Meaning he's got some tie to F1?

Well shit, maybe he is sponsoring Casino

[worthy rose]

OOOH!I remember seeing that now!

[worthy rose]

Or he was like "you know what, let me just buy a formula 1 car because why the hell not? Lul"

[past copper]

Yup. You gotta escort an F1 car from the start point up a curving road hill all the way into a casino

[worthy rose]

Maximilian having ties to the racing world makes sense though, with all the bets that get placed before races and what not

[past copper]

That said, these maps may not stick to the games story.

Rio de Janeiro was Tracer, Reinhardt, Mei, and Lúcio fighting their way through the city to get to the Null Sector cruiser in the sky. While the actual map is an escort map

So, it’s not out of the question that Overwatch will track Max to Monte Carlo and attempt to capture him again

[peak escarp]

Monaco is famous for F1 racing

[desert edge]

True, but that could add to that theory

[past copper]

Yes it could, but it makes you wonder. Could Casino possibly be an agent of Talon?

That’d be a twist

[valid terrace]

Maybe not an agent

Possibly just an associate like Sanjay or Max

Even though he is combat capable, I don't think he'd do Talon's dirty work beyond what his celebrity status gains

Assuming he even is connected to begin with

[worthy rose]

Whose Casino again?

[valid terrace]

One of the MEKA pilots

I think he's the oldest one and only one with a background in something other than gaming

He's an F1 driver which helps him pilot his mech

[worthy rose]

Ah, I only know of D Mon and Overlord

Is he evil or something?

[past copper]

He’s the guy with white slick back hair

[worthy rose]

Yooo, this man jacked Moira's haircut 😂

[valid terrace]

There's also King

5 meka pilots

Casino is more mysterious along with Overlord since our only window into Meka is D.Va and she is connected more with D.Mon and King

[past copper]

Mecha pilots

Casino (Jae-eun Kwon)
D.Mon (Yuna Lee)
D.Va (Hana Song)
King (Kyung-soo Hann)
Overlord (Seung-hwa Shi)

[valid terrace]

Right

[worthy rose]

You know on the Busan map I have never taken a minute to look at all the Mechs in that room behind the point, maybe I should

[valid terrace]

All are there but I don't remember if they are labeled

Except D.Va's

[past copper]

They’re labeled by color

[valid terrace]

Well yeah

I meant without needing an external source knowing their names and owners

[worthy rose]

I know what overlords looks like, and I know what D mons look like, and I can probably guess what Casinos looks like based off his color scheme

[valid terrace]

Green iirc

[past copper]

Casino — green
D.Mon — red
D.Va — pink
King — yellow
Overlord — blue

[worthy rose]

Btw, There's been missed opportunity after Missed opportunity to give D va a power rangers skin, it would work so well

[valid terrace]

Here's a good visual

Only thing's missing are last names and mech names which are mostly unimportant

[peak escarp]

D.Mon was a teammate and friend of D.Va's (hence why their gamertag is similar), King was her biggest rival

[mortal rock]

does anyone know if the omnics having an afterlife is canon bc of the training bots revive voice line?

[peak escarp]

not much is known about Overlord, but he is probably a Starcraft player

Overlord is also the youngest

[valid terrace]

Do we know the ages for D.Mon and King?

[peak escarp]

no, but probably similar to D.Va

[worthy rose]

Yeah, I'm in a custom game, went Lucio and zoomed to the back room, Casinos looks almost exactly like a car of some sorts 😂

[valid terrace]

Ik Casino and Overlord make up the ends

[past copper]

Well, D.Va is 19, so they probably are too

[peak escarp]

I would guess they're all 19-21

[valid terrace]

It would make sense for D.Va's friend and rival to be comparable ages yeah

Just was curious if we had a definitive

[peak escarp]

nope

[valid terrace]

My headcanon is left to right on that image

Oldest to youngest

[worthy rose]

Imagine all of them as heroes, I kinda want that now

That's alot of potential tanks

[peak escarp]

I'd agree with that

[valid terrace]

A lot of mirror tanks when it comes to lore

Gameplay would be fun though

[past copper]

Casino looks the oldest among them. D.Mon, D.Va and King look the same age, while Overlord is the youngest

[peak escarp]

they dont all have to be tanks

Overlord seems more like a support

[valid terrace]

Only one I could see breaking that is Overlord

[worthy rose]

I was gonna say that to

[peak escarp]

they could be more flexible if their mech isnt included, but I don't know if Blizz would do that

[past copper]

D.Mon and King look like tanks for sure. Casino might as well, but his mech looks more for speed then power. Overlord doesn’t look designed for combat so probably support

[valid terrace]

Lol just put Dae-Hyun in at that point

[worthy rose]

The whole de mech thing is something that should Dva only, because if not people will run double tanks with both having 2 lives pretty much, an idk how well that would be received

[valid terrace]

The mech is the only current reason to make them playable

D.Va's whole gimmick is that her mech explodes anyway

So she is the only one who needs a pilot mode

[peak escarp]

the demech mechanic is why they're less likely to ever be playable heroes

[valid terrace]

Right

[peak escarp]

because it was complicated and difficult to program

[valid terrace]

Also is Overlord a legal adult?

[peak escarp]

and to this day is still very buggy

I would assume he is

[valid terrace]

In America anyway

[peak escarp]

since he's in the military

[valid terrace]

Is conscription 18 in Korea?

It is

[worthy rose]

Another thing is, the Mechs are pretty big compared to DVAS, especially D mons

[worthy rose]

Since it stands upright

They need to fit through doors and what not

[peak escarp]

for some reason this came up with D.Va's image

[past copper]

Well, they got interesting tech in Overwatch

The MEKA base literally has a hardlight launch platform for the team to ship out against the enemy

[peak escarp]

also in Korea you're a year older on Jan 1st, not your birthday

that's what it means by Korean age

[past copper]

Anyone else think Overwatch will get involved in stopping the Omniums in the East China Sea and Russia?

That would mean fighting against an army of Bastion units and more

[peak escarp]

there isn't an army of Bastion units

[past copper]

Is was hinted at that the Gwishin Omnics have Bastion units

[peak escarp]

when?

[past copper]

In the Overwatch wiki for the Gwishin

At least two types of Gwishin omnic are known to exist:
'Omnic Colossus': The first known Gwishin. Bi-pedal, capable of reconfiguring.[2]
'Airborne omnic': Small, flying, squid-like omnics. Highly maneuverable, capable of firing multiple missiles at a time.[3]
Additionally, the Gwishin Bastion skin may indicate that the East China Sea omnium is also producing its own variants of the Bastion Siege Automaton unit.

[peak escarp]

"may indicate"

it doesn't

why would an omnic force operating out of the ocean have distinctly non-aquatic Bastion units?

also, our Bastion is said to be the last of its kind

[past copper]

Firstly, because this Omnium has been active since the first crisis. Bastions were the first ground assault units created by all of these factories, so that means this factory would have some units left over before creating new Omnics

Second, Bastions may only be used within the factory in the unlikely case enemies manage to infiltrate it. That be sad, but it’s better than wasting good units

It’s not hard to imagine this is the case. After all, the war had been over for some time, yet Null Sector was able to build their own Bastions and OR14s when they attacked King’s Row

[peak escarp]

who says Null Sector built them? they were probably survivors from the war that got repurposed

[limpid agate]

Considering they built some of the other omnics?

Its likely they also built the Bastions

[peak escarp]

that still doesn't mean the Gwishin have bastion units

[limpid agate]

We dont know if they did or didnt

The Bastions are not distinctly non-aquatic

Walking along the sea floor is an excellent way to approach the shore unresisted

[peak escarp]

I meant that they're not designed for the water

not like the squid-like ones

the existence of the Gwishin skin for Bastion shouldn't be taken as evidence of the Gwishin having Bastion units

[past copper]

As I said, it’s not impossible since the East China Sea Omnium has been active since the First Omnic Crisis.

[peak escarp]

it's not impossible, but there's no evidence for it

[past copper]

This means that Bastions were built there too much like all the others and as Taiga pointed out, they can easily traverse the ocean floor without issue to invade

[peak escarp]

so we shouldn't assume they had them

[past copper]

Even if these Bastions are still active, they’re probably nothing more than guards for the Omnium, having been long discontinued with the new generation of Omnics being built

Just because Bastion, the playable one we all know and love was said to be the Last Bastion, that could mean it was the last Bastion from the war or last of it’s generation

[peak escarp]

that would undermine its identity as "the last bastion"

[past copper]

Maybe, but I think it’s important to remember that even if these Gwishin Bastions are real, Bastion is NOTHING like them

He so much more than a simple minded weapon built for war and destruction

[crisp tulip]

I’m so lost

[stark mauve]

Egg

[past copper]

Okay, the conversation started by saying there may be Bastion units in the China East Sea Omnium that are apart of the Gwishin Omnics

[compact cobalt]

Fairly certain the last bastion didn’t mean in all of existence

Just in Germany is what I assumed it implied

[peak escarp]

why would it imply "only in Germany"?

when something is called "the last" with no other description, it implies "last overall"

[valid terrace]

It is the final bastion unit from the war

[peak escarp]

"The Last Jedi" didn't mean "the last jedi on this planet"

[valid terrace]

And it's likely that the gwishin omnium can make at least the normal bastion units, since the OR models were found outside of Africa, which I believe is where they are from

[past copper]

They gave Bastion a Gwishin skin for Archives back when it was still a good event. Blizzard didn’t do that for nothing back then

[peak escarp]

Torbjorn has a Deadlock skin

D.Va has a Junker skin

[past copper]

I meant for the Archieves Event specifically, because that was apart of Overwatch Lore

It’s not really anymore

[peak escarp]

not all Archives skins are canon

[valid terrace]

They also added Talon Widow which was likely never used

[peak escarp]

Talon Widow is fine

[valid terrace]

And Talon Sombra

[peak escarp]

but I strongly doubt Sombra ever looked like that

[past copper]

Back THEN they used to be, but not anymore. Blizzard is just making whatever skin to please players now until OW2

[valid terrace]

They ran out of lore based skins

[peak escarp]

Talon Sombra came out before Gwishin Bastion

[valid terrace]

Exactly

I was trying to get examples before 1776

Even though that one is canonish

[past copper]

Gwishin Bastion skin came along the time Shooting Star was dropped

[valid terrace]

Gwishin is a big faction, they have robots, they wanted a skin for someone that isn't a squidbot

It may be the case that the gwishin have bastion units, but the archives skin isn't evidence for that

Just a blueprint if they do end up having them

[past copper]

Besides, Gwishin has been operating since the first crisis because nobody can get to it under the sea. Either because it’s heavily fortified by Omnic units, such as Bastions, and other units

[valid terrace]

Or because it's hidden somewhere at the seafloor

It's said no one knows where the gwishin come from

[past copper]

Though, I keep saying that the Gwishin keep adapting, so Bastions can easily have been built, used, and then discontinued. At best, they’re only guards for the factory now. At worst, they were all deactivated and used for spare parts

[valid terrace]

At worst, they never existed there in the first place

There is still no actual evidence

[past copper]

Either way, Bastion is a generation 1 unit from the First Omnic Crisis. Any other Bastions after him are newer, but nothing like him

[valid terrace]

We just know what they would look like, if they existed, or were to exist

He is also upgraded, so he's unique even to other crisis models

[past copper]

Bastion isn’t a weapon like the others. He’s a cut above the rest and that’s what makes him older but better than any other unit after him

[valid terrace]

He's older because he didn't fight to the death like his drone counterparts

In lore he's just a bastion unit with a heart

Not special until Torbjörn upgrades him

And even that is likely minimal

[past copper]

Yeah, we don’t know what happened there. He may have crashed landed, but was accidentally deactivated in the process

[valid terrace]

That seems to be the case

Didn't wake up after being launched

[past copper]

Hey, at least it saved him from getting broken into scrap

[valid terrace]

Right

[peak escarp]

I know this comes up every time Bastion gets discussed, but

Bastion is "it", not "he"

[valid terrace]

Yeah

I just don't like tightrope walking for semantics

You're right though

[peak escarp]

"it" is an awkward pronoun to use for something that is seemingly sentient

[past copper]

My point is this though, the Gwishin deployed Bastions units during the war, who stormed the shores of surrounding countries like the beaches of Normandy.

That’s until drones were used to fight back, rendering Bastions outclassed

[peak escarp]

we don't have any evidence of that

[valid terrace]

It's also my personal headcanon that Bastion isn't necessarily special in that it doesn't want to fight, but rather that all battle omnics were being controlled by the omniums until they were forced to surrender and start making civilian omnics instead

[peak escarp]

we've only seen two classes of Gwishin omnics - the colossal titan and the squids

[valid terrace]

Exactly

[past copper]

Then came the Gwishin Colossus that attacked for 20 years and rendered drones useless, but then came the MEKA to counter it

[valid terrace]

The drones held it off for a few attacks

It kept adapting

[past copper]

Which lead to a stalemate for a long time, but the Gwishin continued to adapt for each month

[valid terrace]

Think of the robot from The Incredibles

Get's beaten until it overcomes whatever obstacle was there before

[past copper]

But, since it appears to take the Gwishin a month to upgrade the Colossus, they started using flying Omnics to try and counter the MEKA, which D.Va barley managed to stop without the whole team

[valid terrace]

I think the titan attacks were every year or so

The squid ones are the boots on the ground so to speak

[peak escarp]

The government's fears proved to be well founded, as a disturbing pattern of attacks emerged. Every few years, the monstrosity would rise from the sea to assault South Korea and its neighbors. The omnic learned from these encounters, often reconfiguring itself in a different form and appearing with new weapons and capabilities. Each incident ended in a stalemate, with the monstrosity defeated but not destroyed.

the attacks are every few years, that's why MEKA wasn't expecting another attack so soon

they had already stood down

[past copper]

As the conflict wore on, the attacks from the Gwishin began to occur every few months. In addition to the Colossus, the Gwishin deployed were aquatic and squid-like in design (due to the underwater nature of the omnium).[1] MEKA found itself struggling to keep the Gwishin in check, as they continued to adapt and become stronger.

[valid terrace]

I interpret that as saying there are more frequent attacks because the squid ones can be deployed

Rather than the titan that takes a while to repair and reconfigure

[past copper]

Yeah, but after Shooting Star, it seems months maybe become weeks if the Gwishin are starting to adapt again

[peak escarp]

what's the source on "every few months"?

[valid terrace]

I think that was more of a surprise attack than a new pattern

[limpid agate]

The wiki isnt a source

The wiki is good for reference

But its not a source itself

[past copper]

The same place you got your source

[limpid agate]

Its a secondary source

Not a primary source

[valid terrace]

The wiki uses Doctor's source

[limpid agate]

Its not the same place.

Doctor's Source is D.Va's bio.

Your source isn't

[peak escarp]

I quoted from D.va's bio

[limpid agate]

Your source is inference from Shooting Star.

[past copper]

Literally, his source is on the Gwishin wiki word for word

[limpid agate]

Or rather, that's the wiki's source

Again

The wiki is not a source itself

Its a reference

[valid terrace]

!!loreheroes dva

[twilit nacelle]

To learn more, please visit https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/dva#story

[past copper]

So, what you’re saying is that both Six and I are wrong

[limpid agate]

No

[valid terrace]

No

The wiki is using canon sources

And filling gaps

Those gaps don't become canon by association

[past copper]

https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/Gwishin

[valid terrace]

We know

[limpid agate]

Are you going to keep ignoring what we are writing?

[valid terrace]

The wiki is not a developer written source

[past copper]

Well then, neither is D.Va’s bio if it says the same thing about the Gwishin as the Gwishin page does

[valid terrace]

What?

[limpid agate]

I dont think you know what a source is

[valid terrace]

If I quote canon and make up something in the same paragraph, that doesn't make the whole of it canon or non-canon, it's still separable

[peak escarp]

a primary source is something written by the narrative designers

[past copper]

You know what, look up everything there is about the Gwishin, but you’ll just find everything word for word the same

[valid terrace]

There's no point digging a hole you fell into innocently enough

Use the links the wiki supplies

Quote from there

[limpid agate]

https://kids.kiddle.co/Primary_source

https://kids.kiddle.co/Secondary_source

[past copper]

Yeah, no. D.Va’s lore was written at the start of the game and never continued beyond that.

[limpid agate]

https://kids.kiddle.co/Tertiary_source

Here

Read these 3 pages

They should be very easy for you to understand

[past copper]

Before Shooting Star ever existed

[valid terrace]

D.Va's lore was expanded by Shooting Star, I don't know what you are trying to say

[limpid agate]

Read those 3 pages I linked

They are very easy to read

[valid terrace]

There have also been developer comments

[limpid agate]

They are marketed to children

[past copper]

Yeah. In the wiki, but nothing else

[limpid agate]

I am sure you will be able to understand it

Let us know when you've read those 3 definitions

[past copper]

I’m out

[desert edge]

Wait wait, I can't call people idiots yet Taiga can treat him like a kid?

But seriously though, I think those three happen to be more right than you Ryu, after all, if the majority have a way of thinking, it's usually correct

[iron plume]

It's not about the majority, it's about a simple fact

[past copper]

Whatever

But that that doesn’t give one guy the right to call me stupid

Just because I use a different site then them

[iron plume]

He didn't

Again, it's not about "using a different site"
People here use the wiki all the time

But you have to recognize the difference between a fan-run wiki that anyone can edit and official material

[past copper]

Dude, he’s basically calling me stupid and treating me like a kid over it.

All without saying it

[iron plume]

Well, maybe you should take the hint

Let's move on from this conversation now, it's not going anywhere useful

[desert edge]

Although, I am going to say that, if the wiki makes it seem as though it's every few months, and you need to look into sources to figure out the truth then maybe it needs an update

[past copper]

Seriously, that kinda thing is why people call people in the Overwatch community toxic. Just saying. But whatever. I’d prefer to stop it

[desert edge]

wait so, who runs the wiki?

[iron plume]

gamepedia/fandom hosts it
The content is made by volunteers

our very own jewvia among them

[past copper]

There used to be 2 wiki for Overwatch, but one kinda merged with the other

[iron plume]

it didn't merge, it got retired

This one used to be .fandom.com https://overwatch-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Overwatch_Wiki
The other used to be .gamepedia.com

[past copper]

Whatever. I just don’t understand what’s it matter if the information is saying the Gwishin attacked every few years, then started attacking every few months? Who can say if that’s right or wrong

[iron plume]

...

we can't say that it's right or wrong, that's the point
which is why you shouldn't state it as a fact

it may well be right but we don't know that

[desert edge]

Why's it on the wiki then?

[iron plume]

because the wiki contains informed speculation in addition to confirmed material

maybe it shouldn't, but that's not for me to judge

[desert edge]

Seems unnecessary, in fact it's misleading, it's like including headcanon in a place people look for lore

[past copper]

Well, I choose to look at it from a logical stand point, right or wrong, it’s been written, stated, and shown, that the Omnics adapt against their enemies and the Gwishin has been attacking for years and to finally adapt to start attacking within months isn’t impossible to believe

[iron plume]

You are free to believe that

Personally I'd say that's rather likely

but it's not a fact

All we know from canon is that the Shooting Star attack happened earlier than expected

[past copper]

It would just be more surprising if they just did the same thing every time they did attack. Seriously, then it goes against what the Omnics are known for

[iron plume]

No one is saying it's not possible

[past copper]

Okay

I’d just like to point something out. If there is one thing to know about these kinds of Omnics, it’s that they prefer to learn from their failures, adapt from them, and catch their enemies by surprise with their new weapons. Examples include Honor and Glory, Shooting Star, and Zero Hour

[iron plume]

yes

and we've seen them adapt their tactics in Shooting Star

because they attacked earlier than the meka squad could recover

But "one attack earlier than expected" is not "they started attacking every few months"

If anything, the fact that they didn't expect it means that the change of pace is new

But that too is speculation

[past copper]

Whatever. I’d like to think speculations are just facts waiting to be proven

I’m glass half full kinda guy

[iron plume]

well until they're shown as facts, don't present them as such

[desert edge]

Is that not what the wiki does?

[past copper]

Fine fine whatever.

[iron plume]

Kinda. But we're not the wiki

[desert edge]

Interesting, alright then, I'm sold. The most obvious place for OW knowledge can't be trusted

Wait so, were Omnica actually able to build omniums worldwide based on a single promise? It doesn't exactly sound believable

[iron plume]

wdym on a single promise

[desert edge]

Well, granted you said not to trust the wiki, but went down a rabbit hole and it said that they were able to just because they promised an economic golden age

[iron plume]

This is what reads in the official post it links:

When Omnica Corporation revolutionized robotic manufacturing, it seemed the world was on the verge of entering an economic golden age. Their massive factories of automated construction machines and self-improving software algorithms were patented, marketed as "omniums," and installed on every continent.

So it's not like the corporation was "give land, will do golden age, pinky swear"

They made a breakthrough which made it look like the golden age was coming
Presumably after constructing smaller-scale ones
And were then allowed to build more

[past copper]

Yeah, things revolving around the Omniums kinda vary. People are still trying to figure out why these God Programs suddenly reactivated the factories are started constructing Omnics to kill humans

[iron plume]

They're not god programs

[past copper]

Something I kinda hope we find out in Overwatch 2

My question is unchanged. It’s still curious to know why it happened. There’s always a reason behind something

I don’t wanna think it’s some Skynet thing either

[rancid egret]

it seems more like skynet than anything else

[limpid agate]

Its a mystery in universe too

Its not something that has a known answer we don't know

Nobody knows why it happened

[frosty shell]

My solution to the Gwishin thing is that the Gwishin disappears every few years but the years it shows up it moves back up and down the coast for a while

[karmic blaze]

zen lol

[limpid agate]

@karmic blaze Do you have something to talk about?

[karmic blaze]

is there still no zen lore?

[limpid agate]

There has been Zen lore for a long time

[karmic blaze]

reallyyy? ok i go read it good bye

[elder wasp]

Hope I'm not interrupting any discussion but I noticed this in DM today. It's a number plate on a van in Paris, is that a common fake written language seen anywhere else? Some omnic stuff? Or what?

[cosmic crest]

Don't worry, you weren't.

[peak escarp]

that's Omnicode

the written language of omnics

only omnics can read it

[limpid agate]

For humans to read it, they need implants

We dont have those implants

So we cant read them

[cosmic crest]

One wonders why machines need a written language when they could just communicate electronically but whatever.

[peak escarp]

I imagine it's like computer code embedded in the characters, like a barcode but more complex

[limpid agate]

One wonders why humans need a written language when they could just communicate orally but whatever

[elder wasp]

To communicate with people you are not near (space and time)

I mean if you want a serious answer the archaeological findings suggest that trade and commerce are the reasons for the most part

[peak escarp]

omnics do the same with omnicode

[elder wasp]

Omnicode? Is that the actual name?

Oh it is

[limpid agate]

I was copy pasting their message to imply that its the same with Omnics

[elder wasp]

Oh

My bad, Im a bit tired

[peak escarp]

I had to double check that "omnicode" was the actual name used for it, not just something the community made up

but it is called that in HoN so we're good

[past copper]

Just a thought, but do you think Null Sector would have more Titan mechs? Not just the one from Paris?

[peak escarp]

probably

[past copper]

Then that would be cool to see in the story

Scary, but cool

Also, I’ve been thinking on a previous conversation about Null Sector using Sigma’s research and I think there are at least 3 Omnics that look like they’d use it. Aside from the Puller

I can’t post the image here, so bare with me. One looks like a fat Omnic in a floating chair and staff. The other is floating with a face similar to the NS Leader’s face with a ring on his back. The other looks like a floating bomb with insect legs

[past copper]

Yeah, those 3 in that concept art

[peak escarp]

but a lot of things in the OW universe float

most notably, cars

just floating isn't special

[limpid agate]

The fat one with the staff isn't floating

[past copper]

Ah. His legs are hard to see unless you look closer

[peak escarp]

and the one with the ring on its back has what appear to be lev-rims in the place of legs