lore-discussion

[dawn topaz]

that was pretty tame compared to some of the stuff we've been getting now

[spare fox]

like, no Freya is not a recolored Widow that's just a dumb and objectively untrue statement... if anything she looks more like Brig (who is also Northern European so it makes sense)

[dawn topaz]

I mean, they do look similar

like if you kept the body and faces the same but changed everything else they would look like off-model versions of the other

[brittle sky]

Concord would not have been saved if it had put it's female cast in bikinis or has an anime waifu cast. What are you even on about.

[dawn topaz]

But also it's not a crime to have multiple characters with the same bodies

[spare fox]

I didn't say they would? I was talking about the character design of Concord, since that's what were talking about

[meager geyser]

You guys should stop beating the dead horse 😭

[spare fox]

and they really don't - which is fantastic. Look at the 3 STRONK white women - Zarya, Junkerqueen, and Brig - they all look quite different from one another

[meager geyser]

For 90% of "gamers" it would, which is stupid

[spare fox]

and two of them are tanks even

[meager geyser]

Brigitte is also a tank if you squint your eyes enough

The same way Moira is a flanker

[spare fox]

I meant it more of in the way you can't confuse one for either of the others in-game, silhouette-wise

[meager geyser]

Yeah ik

I was just joking

[spare fox]

yeah mostly, I'm saying oddball characters are all well and good, as are unattractive characters but I do get tired of everyone giving grief over "ohhhh another hot young asian girl for the gooners" like... talk about a dead horse

anyway - they DID reduce the number of upcoming lore slots from two to one!

I hope it's just because the new hero lore is going to be considered S2 lore, since there's not going to be a trial period

[meager geyser]

They officially abounded hero trials

[merry mason]

Yeah that’s what I was thinking. The new hero would be season/chapter 2

[meager geyser]

Anran was the last hero trial

[spare fox]

just for this year since there's a new hero every season this year

but it likely means we're not getting introduced to the new hero until their season

[shrewd pivot]

I worked in the animation industry professionally , so yes, I can critique bad shape use in models, especially models that are texturist like Vendetta's where her hair is straightened when it was meant to be curly your response is passive aggressive

[civic lynx]

They’re doing a new hero every season permanently

This year adding 5 at once was the anomaly

But now every season is a new hero like rivals

[shrewd pivot]

i think the junkers are distinctly different from Torbjorn and Zarya. Torbjorn rationalized his bad outlook, and had a whole arc about how his anti-omnic sentiment was more about HIM than it was about bastion.

Zarya's was rushed but ultimately made sense that Zarya would become more neutral, seemingly Zarya was fighting warbots in Russia not sapient omnics, but once she understood and recognized sapient omnics she became less anti-omnic.

Junkers are madmax and hostile to sapient omnics AND humans. Junkers have little care for life, they stick together to survive harsh environments.

I feel like Junkrat is a lot LESS interesting to see on screen as a "no harsh edges quirky genius inventor" when we already have torbjorn and brigitte doing that niche.

[brittle sky]

It would have died instantly because it was poorly marketed, barely supported, and generally unexciting in a market that is notoriously hard to break into. But that wouldn't have counted for the people counting the culture war stuff, of the folks downstream who accept the narrative. Every instance that supports their idea is emblematic, every one that defies it is exceptional or incidental.

[brittle sky]

why specify they're white - do we have physically imposing nonwhite women?

[spare fox]

idc that you think my comments are passive aggressive, every one of your comments are "critiques" along the lines of "it's bad because it's supposed to be this" as though if the story doesn't follow your rules and it's soooo exhausting to see it
I get you have critiques but like your long-winded responses are ALL critique like

[spare fox]

I specified that they're white as in they're all the same race, really, another similarity that the designers still were able to work with and make them distinct

[brittle sky]

It's not a crime for characters to have similar body types. I think it's a disappointment when a game that signalled it would be an optimistic, inclusive future, and who early on dabbled in that extending at least somewhat to variety in the female cast, falling back on a narrow range of female body types meant to cater to the same regressive beauty standards, at the expense of them being more distinct, more memorable or articulating their character well.

[brittle sky]

I mean, does ultra owe a certain percentage of positivity?

[spare fox]

again, wasn't saying that - just that they're all negative and criticism backed up by "it's supposed to be..." like they know exactly what the devs/writers had in mind and the fact that they're not exactly so is somehow them falling short

[spare fox]

I still think they have a fair range of body types, even in the female characters. The last bunch of women have been Domina, Vendetta, Anran, Freya, Juno - they're all different body types

[shrewd pivot]

???????????? saying "nobody wants concord" in response to people getting tired of "conventional" designs???
aka "conventional" like ooc fanservice on Freja, and santized punkness Hazard??
that is wild to say spooky.

Overwatch was never about conventional designs. Soldier76 was legit a parody of CoD players, his plainess IS the joke, plus in ow1 he was balding before he got hair transplants in ow2.
Tracer is "conventional" but she's absolutely quirky with her hair and her nervous giggle. What does Freja have? more femme fatale but with ooc fanservice, widowmaker handled that better.
Winston.
Also Widowmaker is BLUE
Genji and Hanzo exist in scifi, and Hanzo is a more accurate Samurai with a bow which is camp

Concord failed not because of "non conventional" (aka diverse) designs, but because the art style was hyper realistic and the art direction did not meld well with that art style. Put those concord designs into something like jet set radio and it might work (well, not really bc the armor designs were kinda bleh), but concord designs did not fail bc of diversity, you could have made every concord character the same species, race, and gender and the designs would have still failed bc the artstyle was badly managed. idk about the gameplay but yeah

[brittle sky]

If the dead horse doesn't keep showing up every season and actively make a game and narrative people enjoyed worse in a way that satisfied the absolute worst people on the internet, maybe it wouldn't be beat so much. I think critiques of the female cast online can be reductive, because it's the internet - it's both inherently reductive and all our platforms are naturally reductive in format. Buuuuuut if the problem is ongoing, you can't be mad if objection to the problem is ongoing. Now you can argue that it's not a problem or it shouldn't be seen as a problem, but that's not the same thing as saying 'are you still talking about the think that's still happening?'.

[spare fox]

AGAIN you're projecting an argument that's not even my own onto me and that of others! I said "nobody wants concord" and youre' taking it to mean that I don't want diverse designs and that I'm in support of OW having all the same designs - which I'm NOT

[shrewd pivot]

then what did you mean by "nobody wants concord" in reference to overwatch?

[spare fox]

that nobody wants crappily-designed ugly characters for the sake of them being ugly and 'different'

[dawn topaz]

No hero shooter will ever get close to the perfect character design of the PVZ shooter trilogy

technically class based shooter but whatever

[spare fox]

yet they still keep showing up to buy more Kiriko skins, so T4 is goign to keep making Kiriko skins - and I don't know why people have a problem with that. I mean I know why but the point is that it's annoying to see them acting all outraged about it like it's something worth being outraged about. If they want more "unconventionally attractive" characters to get skins, then start shelling out the money - (also the companies they do collabs with are going to pick the easiest to skin and the ones that sell the most, so yeah that too)

[median orchid]

Based beyond words

Except for the newest game BFN

[shrewd pivot]

please explain exactly what is " for the sake of them being ugly and 'different' " about the concord characters.
ie, is it the realistic style that makes concord characters looks ugly? etc
so i can better understand what you mean

[brittle sky]

All within a notably stricter, non exaggerated, and safely attractive range. Freya, Juno, and Anran all fall into a very narrow norm. Domina's variation is being curvy, oh no how bold of them. Vendetta is meant to be a gladiator that spent the last 10 years fighting mechs, but that equates to... some mild tonality and 0 scars. She wields a weapon as big as she is and she has stick thin arms. Like vested interest referred to her as 'large and imposing' and I think I laughed out loud.

Anran is meant to be a star athlete pushing herself so hard she's wrecking herself, but she's made sleek and soft with cherubic visage and an outfit that's mostly about her being a graceful dancer. Juno was born on mars, something they acknowledge as something that would make the body weird in game, but she's just a waifish thing, whose astronaut suit (that canonically her parents made) hug the individual cheeks of her butt. Freja is straight up the 'I fixed aloy' meme, that we're supposed to read as a dangerous, grim bounty hunter.

That's not to say every decision on every character is bad, or that some of them can't have more normative or similar body types. but they all are similar, and all similar around the idea of a conventionally attractive body type, and all of them fail to articulate their character as well as they could have because of those archetypes. Calling them particularly different requires having just hugely lopsided standards.

[spare fox]

it's the concord designers literally making the most "unconventionally attractive" characters to stand out against games like OW and MR that generally do have attractive characters, more or less, likely in response to social media harping on and on about "another attractive young female" in those games

[median orchid]

Yep

[dawn topaz]

Also I think it's important to make the point that a character's body has to reflect their role

snipers are gonna be skinny and sexy

TF2 made that a requirement for all snipers in class/hero shooters

[median orchid]

I hate to use the word it but its kind of a "Woke" thing

No better way to describe it honestly

[brittle sky]

failing to understand that having a short squat character with a long ass gun is inherently hilarious.

[median orchid]

Ngl thats allways funny af. Though it could be a pain in the ass to fight against if done badly

[dawn topaz]

no, the short squat character is meant to be an engineer smh my head

[brittle sky]

nah, those guys are thin

[dawn topaz]

Symmetra is the teleporter lady

those are meant to be thin

like Rose in GW2

(Ignore that the Engineer in the same game is fat and also the teleporter guy)

[brittle sky]

a teleporter lady

also, we're calling that fat? Man's just square

[dawn topaz]

Egghead's Overalls and Level Three Chin

[brittle sky]

Concord had bad design, but it wasn't because sweet baby or whoever made them go unattractive or w/e. They had not consistency in their visuals articulating their world, individual characters failed to express who they were/how they played by appearance, none had memorable silhouettes or designs other than like, maybe the trash can robot, and executives clearly thought their aping of gotg meant they should do fully realistic human facial mocaps over alien characters. There's plenty ill conceived, but the reasons their designs were bad wasn't because they weren't aiming to be hot enough, just like what makes overwatch and mr's character designs good (when they are good) isn't just because they made them hot.

[shrewd pivot]

Anran and Freja, both have conventional body types with ooc fanservice. Freja has unique thumbs so that would count as a unique body type ig.
Anran is getting a face change bc they made Anran "marketable conventionally attractive" instead of looking like Wuyang's older sister.

Juno has a similar pear shaped body to Sojourn and Illari, but Juno's suit design does make Juno appear as a different body type.

Domina is new but obviously for "emma frost ceo" fanservice... again, her name is Domina.

Vendetta's body type is new but that's the muscles brigitte should have had day one lol. It is a new body type for the conventional body type build (ashe, freja, mercy, ect).

I am ALL for getting different body types, but it would be nice to get illari style or mei style or brigitte etc designs for curvy characters (Domina body type) that don't overtly sexualize.

[spare fox]

holy shit please stop replying to me with walls of text ESPECIALLY walls of text that are literally putting words in my mouth or I'm gonna report you for harassment fr

[shrewd pivot]

it's not harrassment. i am... explaining myself

[median orchid]

Idk but the end all be all in my opinion that Sex and Attraction sells.

Hot charecters = A lot of Money

Attractive Charecter = Money

Hot = Attractive

So:

Attractive = Money

And usually going for conventional attractiveness works best.

[shrewd pivot]

TLDR: Anran and Freja are not new body types (i do not mean this rudely, just summing it up)

[brittle sky]

brig honestly should have more denseness than venny anyway. She's clearly established as more endomorphic and about putting on power muscles, whereas Vendetta is like... a tennis player's build.

[spare fox]

I stg you two are trolling it's always when I'm on and having a decent conversation and then you come in double-teaming me arguing with things I didn't even say

[shrewd pivot]

no? I am not trolling spooky. I am trying to communicate clearly. I genuinely do not mean it in a mean way. /genuine

i will keep my responses to you in a TLDR format, i don't mean my long text as hostile, genuinely

[spare fox]

I didn't say they were new I meant that they were varied. Even the common complaint that Frey is reskinned Widow doesn't work - yes both are thin white women with a frown and long legs, but Freya has different eyes, nose, mouth, long, fuller torso, etc

[brittle sky]

It's not the only thing that sells, and ow got a lot of fans, particularly ones that weren't the usual fans of the genre, by signalling that female characters could have appeals other than conventional attractiveness. That they walked that back to pursue the same whales as like, genshin impact feels cynical and cowardly.

[shrewd pivot]

Freja and Anran do not add new body types to the roster.
freja isn't a widow reskin, she is similar femme fatale archtypes, but freja has even more ooc fanservice

[spare fox]

it's more the fact that you're twisting my words into arguments I'm not even making
I said, quote "I still think they have a fair range of body types, even in the female characters. The last bunch of women have been Domina, Vendetta, Anran, Freya, Juno - they're all different body types"
and you are arguing "Freja and Anran do not add new body types" in reply to me like that's NOT what I was claiming in the first place

[median orchid]

Yes, but its the biggest thing that sells.

The lore and character building is top-notch in Overwatch.

Personally I like these characters for who they are and what they represent. Not as some sort of pixelated thirst traps. Being Asexual myself I can confirm that for me personally attractive charecters don't really affect my view of them

But it sure affects most people. The world is overly sexualized.

[spare fox]

yeah I mean, people like looking at nice things

[median orchid]

Yep

[spare fox]

that's why prime real estate isn't right next to the dump or waste management

[shrewd pivot]

which is antithetical to overwatch1 designs which is goofy cartoony fun overwatch hero designs.
overwatch wouldn't be the same without fun characters like winston, dva with her unconventional mech, junkrat, etc, which doesn't fit into this outlook

[spare fox]

Idk, I don't think that just because a character isn't goofy cartoony like winston, et all that it's necessarily antithetical to their outlook like

[median orchid]

It wouldnt, we love winton. But most people know Overwatch for its hot and attractive charecters on all sides.

Theres allways that infamous quote on a post about overwatch going like:

"Wow, she is from a game?" (Talking about mercy)

[spare fox]

ngl I've been on the tumblr tag for junkrat and roadhog, people will thirst over anything

[median orchid]

Its the first thing people see really.

[brittle sky]

Nice should not only mean 'conventionally attractive'. Like christ, in Marvel Rivals, a game which I think is largely very cynical about its character design, the 3 characters people are most fixated on as attractive are the three women who vary from the classic comic book body type. Character design is a chance to tell people who the character is - that's why exaggerated, cartoony proportions are a thing, it articulates about the character. If we insist every female character falls into a narrow band of beauty standards, especially if people are saying 'overwatch is a hopeful game about everyone can be a hero', it says that the only time it's worth including a female character on the cast is when she hits x beauty standards, and that the most important thing you should know about them is that they're hot.

[median orchid]

Yes, amen or whatever to that. But the reality is that most people like Sexualized charecters with beaty standards and all.

The curent world is hyper sexualized.

TLDR: I agree but the majority doesn't usually agree.

[shrewd pivot]

i mean yeah, but anran's current design is the result of the philosophy. she looks younger than wuyang, does not look related to wuyang, and her bare thighs don't make sense. it doesn't feel like a proper overwatch design.
Freja and Anran are probably the two that stand out to me the most as "this doesn't feel like overwatch" -- the fanservice is ooc. in ow1, fanservice had lore reasoning or characterization reasoning.

[shrewd pivot]

which is what we are saying, no? That sure it's a majority thing, but if you follow majority then you get less unique heroes

[brittle sky]

and the women that get the most thirst in MR are the one with body fat, the one who looks over 35, and the giant beefcake with scars so deep it rends her flesh. People will thirst for anything if you make their character design cool and compelling. We don't have to go by some strict range, and it's a bad sign when your hopeful 'we're looking to make heroes everyone can see themselves in, people of all kinds from all over the world' has less female design variety than the cynical game based on the most notoriously 'same body, same face' hypersexualized format. And those more unique designs are the ones people respond to, even the horny ones.

[spare fox]

IMO, the characters commonly accused of being clones of one another really aren't
Kiriko has more of a stringy body type, turned-in feet, slim legs, more 'athletic' breasts/butt
Anran is shorter, fuller legs, not really that slim (definitely not saying she's fat, just that she's not waif-like)
Juno is more curvy yet not muscular- she kinda gets away with that body type because she's not athletic at all

[brittle sky]

are we... relying on saying her feet face more inward to say she's unique?

[median orchid]

Yes, what you are saying. I agree with the take.

Characters shouldn't be pure generic thirst traps or overtly sexualized.

[shrewd pivot]

yeah i was shocked sigma had so many fans for example lol
so if people will simp overanything, why bend the knee to "conventional beauty standards"

[spare fox]

in that it is a difference of her character design, yes?

[shrewd pivot]

kiriko is tracer body type
Anran is thigh fanservice ooc, i will have to compare her model but at first glance her body seems on par with others like Freja etc
Juno is curvy (with dehydrated muscular arms according to kpop collab haha), but Juno has Sojourn's body type actually. It's just more obvious bc Juno is in a suit.

honestly i should make a comparison chart for all the body types

[brittle sky]

I think it's emblematic of how granular you have to get to insist these are different. Meanwhile, while there are more conventionally attractive or non-exagerrated male characters, you can just say 'mauga - giant meat box with a tiny head - road - huge belly round monster man, junkrat is a hunched string bean.'. Like nobody is an exact clone, but if we have to dig in to ever smaller details to say the femme cast is different, when in reality it's not even close to hitting the range of body types we see in reality, much less the cartooney, exaggerrated levels we see on other parts of the cast, it's not wrong to say there's a glut.

[spare fox]

even if Kiriko and Tracer have the "same" body type, they're still different even though they're both built like runners

[median orchid]

@Grok Summarize this thread (JK)

[spare fox]

you realize that I was comparing those 3 in particular because they are the ones frequently accused of being clones???
"how granular you have to get to insist these are different"
they ARE different in multiple ways - just because they're roughly the same size, they're still DISTINCT
I don't understand
The same could be done for other (male) heroes who are roughly the same size
Soldier, Bap, Emre
Zarya, Junkerqueen, Vendetta
Mizuki, Wuyang, Genji

Emre more or less is a "S76" clone in a special suit, yet no one complains about that?

it's always the female asian heroes that get that treatment

[brittle sky]

Because Emre and Soldier are not the extent of the male cast. Like again, no one has a problem if some of the female cast are close to whatever standard body type. It's just the perception that that seems to be the only kind of female character designs that get through, with our outliers being domina curvy and vendetta toned - which are not really wild or risky departures. There are differences among any characters if you seek them. But there are also strong similarities in plenty of factors - body type being one of them- I don't think it's wild or unreasonable to not that, or be critical of it.

[spare fox]

I mean it gets to a point where what further outliers - other than curvy or toned - do you expect there to be for human characters?
the argument being that the female designs aren't "diverse" enough when since the OW2 launch, we've gotten
Anran
Freya
Sojourn
Vendetta
Illari
Juno
Kiriko
Domina
Junkerqueen

like... idk how the argument can be made there's only the "one type" that gets through

[shrewd pivot]

dang i can't find the image i wanted
I really like Kiriko's sillouette of the Miko Shrine maiden clothing!!!
Tracer and Kiriko do have similar body types tho, both are runners, kiriko just had big shoes
As much as I like Kiriko's design, i think for hitbox fairness reasons and cosplay reasons, Kiriko should have had big hakama pant legs

[brittle sky]

Idk man, there's like several arguments in there. I think the 'how varied or glutted do we think recent female body types have been' comes down to fundamentally different definitions, and I don't want to hammer the point back and forth forever today. But like... we've seen further outliers before. We've seen further outliers before on the cast, or on equivalent successful games. It feels like a failure of imagination if we think we truly cannot get female designs with more variety than a domina to vendetta spectrum.

[shrewd pivot]

yeah the best way to compare it, is to look at inside out. the "male" emotions got to be a square and a string. the "female emotions" where turned from star, circle, and triangle, into doll, round doll, and pointy doll.

it's less sillouette diversity, that's a given for any good hero design, it's shape use diversity

i ought to make a little chart

[shrewd pivot]

I wouldn't argue "one type" more so the disparity of shape use between "male" and "female" designs on the roster. red text indicates notable body type aspects
(woops messed up the layering, Venture has text that says "has the thicker legs" of that tier)

while males are more evenly distributed, many female heroes are in the white box and red box

and even for blue tier of shapes it's not that extreme
for example, Baptiste and Zarya have the same "body builder build", it's just that Zarya is taller
And Junkerqueen is perhaps the only unconventional body type beyond orisa and jetpack cat

meanwhile, Torb, Mauga, Roadhog, Ramattra, Winston, Bastion, and Wreckingball all have unconventional body types

and for ow2 addition perspective

Jetpack cat is p much the only true unconventional body type addition, and Ramattra and Mauga are there. Hazard COULD have been, but was made into conventional big dorito

we need more lanky characters imo,
and more petite males like Lucio,
and a true broad shouldered female character (pharah tries to be that in her animations but her model's body type is conventional)

[brittle sky]

Unconventional?

[shrewd pivot]

oops typo mb

[brittle sky]

Fair, just worth catchin

[shrewd pivot]

yeye

ty

ngl i wish wuyang was petite body type and i wish mizuki was lanky body type, it would have fit thier designs pretty well imo
Brigitte should have her muscles, and i would just make Pharah have actually broad shoulders since it would fit with a lot of her animations anyhow

regardless, we aren't getting Torbjorn style nor Mauga style nor Roadhog style body types any time soon for female heroes is my guess.

[merry mason]

I don’t think Wuyang should be petite. He was training his whole life for fire college, so logically he would be pretty ripped even if he isn’t in it now.

[shrewd pivot]

pardon! by petite i mean "petite Lucio tier" Wuyang can still be ripped, he would just be shorter like Lucio is,
Wuyang's design didn't read to me as tall

hm ig since Sombra is short she could go into petite tier 🤔

[merry mason]

As for the concord discourse I usually point to a game called spacelords. It has some pretty good character designs and most of the girls are hot (even the alien abomination for some reason). Did that save it from being so unknown that nobody has heard of it until I bring it up? No.

[shrewd pivot]

i think the strength of overwatch is that it's cartoony, cartoony stylization tends to age better / is timeless, where more realistic styles can be easily uncanny and age badly

[merry mason]

Like good character design is vital to a game, but it isn’t going to be the single deciding factor. Way more people would have taken interest Concord if they had better designs but even then I doubt It would be around by now.

[merry mason]

Spacelords had a cartoony design too. Not to the extent of Overwatch but enough to have a timeless look

[shrewd pivot]

yeye
gameplay is key, but overwatch 1 imo had some strong identity in character design, hoping for more, not less of that.

[shrewd pivot]

i'll give it a "street fighter"(edit: I messed up, i meant Mortal Kombat, sorry!) esque pass, it's very much not cartoony like junkrat, spacelords is stylized and leans more towards realism than cartoony shape use imo

not that it's bad btw! it has it's own thing going on

[merry mason]

Have you heard of it before or are you looking it up right now

[shrewd pivot]

just looking it up, from the screenshots and videos

[merry mason]

Also are you implying street fighter isn’t as cartoony as OW? I would put them in the same tier on the realism scale

[shrewd pivot]

i mean visual shape use

humor and camp aside, street fighter has a more realistic looking anatomy than overwatch

hm actually mbmb i misremembered, spacelords is more realistic looking in shape use than streetfighter tbf. spacelords is like, superhero games etc.
Overwatch is like, WoW cartoony shape use

[wise grotto]

sf is super cartoony
and anatomy wise not even a little abigail is naturally that large as example

hakkan and necros a and G are like
all weirder then the weirdest ow anatomy wise character

g is actually partially made out of gold

[shrewd pivot]

i was confusing Street fighter for mortal combat 🥀 mb

[wise grotto]

lol yea no sf makes ow look realistic

[shrewd pivot]

i meant that spacelords looks kind of like a "realistic fighting game" or "super hero game" and not as cartoony in shape use as overwatch, pardon

[merry mason]

Yeah my problem with the spacelords design was a fear to journey beyond the Superman build for the guys and Barbie doll for the girls broadly speaking. Which I think gets to the point of the issue: realism can restrict a good character design due to the requirement to look atomically correct

[merry mason]

That makes infinitely more sense

[shrewd pivot]

yeeaaaahhh my recall isn't too great pfft. when i dont know a series well enough, i confuse the names of series within genres, mb!

anywhoo, pardon for the derailment, lore channel focus wahoo

[split pendant]

guys who thinks overwatch will escape to lunar star colony their only base talon hasent touched

[brittle sky]

Depends on the sf number really

[wise grotto]

there is not a single sf game except sf1 that isnt wildly less realistic

sf2 sf3 sf4 sf5 sf6 all have multiple wtf characters each in base rosters alone

[brittle sky]

I mean 6 goes for photorealism and while most the cast are excessively muscled (other than a greviously nerfed chun li) I think it actually leans less stylized.

5 I think is about on par in individual stylization, though has less concentration of design. 4's shading makes it very definitely more stylized

[crisp canyon]

If next year is omnic storyline they should add a orange variant weapon called flames of liberation like ramatra says

[shrewd pivot]

lunar colony was overtaken by the space apes, i don't think overwatch is going to space.
Gibraltar had the space launch tech overwatch would need to do that, and Talon overtook Gibraltar

[merry mason]

If there was a weapon skin that set your weapon skin on fire that would go so hard

[grim condor]

Did Mina Liao and Cassidy have something going on

[shrewd pivot]

in canon, they were friendly. nothing in canon directly said they had romantic interest.
the way i read it, Mina and Cassidy were friends.

[grim condor]

I see

[shrewd pivot]

I don't know how old Mina was, but Echo is 14 currently, and 14 years ago Cassidy was 25, to put it into timeline perspective of when Mina and Cass where interacting. I don't think anything in particular hints at romance? Echo says she likes Cassidy because Echo says she is similar to Mina. Meaning, Mina likes Cassidy. That could be romantic subtext if you really push it ig. but nothing outright, Mina and Cassidy do have a confirmed friendship in canon regardless

(Aka fine to ship in fan aus, but not anything canon)

[peak escarp]

judging by 15-year-old Cassidy hitting on 17-year-old Ashe in Deadlock Rebels, maybe he prefers older women

[dawn topaz]

😭 "older women" and it's your peers

[crisp canyon]

Cass x Ana ship

[dawn topaz]

wait hold far are they apart

20-ish years, wow

Makes sense but that one image of the original gang (you know which one) had them look alot closer in age

[peak escarp]

well

"older" is relative

but he kinda flirts with everyone, so

[inner pecan]

lore

[brittle sky]

Cas isn't fuckoff big enough for ana

[drowsy locust]

ngl i'd be happy if ow did a ugly looking female, but then if they do they'd just make pretty skins for her right after in some random collab 😭 🙏

look at new era moira bro

[fathom grove]

ugly is subjective
They've done ugly heroes if you consider all the people who say that kiri or mei are ugly. Most people would say Moira is ugly. yet just as many people think those characters are attractive so theres really no such thing as making an "ugly" character

Even Domina. Domina has a nose thats definitely not conventionally attractive, but people still find her hot

[drowsy locust]

and that's okay, but overwatch has definitely made ways to make characters in the same attractive patterns

mainly face issues

like brig has a very similar face to mercy

[fathom grove]

No, not really. The whole "Faces" thing isn't entirely invalid I'll start with that but when I go into detail with half of the people who complain about face "Similarity" and point out how they're actually rather different, I always either get dismissed or they clearly weren't actually looking close enough before saying they were similar

[fathom grove]

This is a new one and my gut is saying its so wrong I have to look into this now

[drowsy locust]

just look it up, it was a pretty big topic when she got released lol

i think a funny one i got told was that freja had a similar face to widowmaker

okay yeah i just searched it up there's topics about that too when she got released

i believe people just find familiarity so when something is new, they try to think of whats familiar around it and compare it to that

(which explains why hazard's release was so overly negative)

[fathom grove]

These are the same person to anybody?

Completely Different eyebrows
Brigs eyeliner and overall socket shape is more rigid
Noses are similar, but Brigs is noticably larger if you look close
Brig has a much stronger chin, totally different face shape
Brigs lips are way wider

Plus brigs face is just shorter and more compact well mercy's is more "Stretched out"

[drowsy locust]

yeah it's pretty funny looking at it now compared to 8 years ago when her debut happened

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/why-brigitte-has-mercys-face/33331

[fathom grove]

If you go back to when debut was (thus ow1) its closer but like half of what I said is still true AND if im not mistaken brig had fucking FRECKLES in ow1

[fathom grove]

Definitely. Every time I look into these theres some passing similarities sure, but when you look at the two up close (yk, how faces are SUPPOSED to be distinguished) they're always far more different than alike

[fathom grove]

Never though about this either but it makes sense cause hazard genuinely has a unique face in the roster

[drowsy locust]

oh i didnt mean his face, i meant his abilities

[fathom grove]

Except maybe compared to...young rein/torb? even then not really

[drowsy locust]

LOL

[fathom grove]

oh

Hazards abilities suck cause they're incoherent (Which is the point, its just not fun to play against)- Story for another time tho

[drowsy locust]

they also feel so bare bones, eugh..
the fact you can violent leap and spike guard during it just doesnt feel intentional at all

but yeah story for another time

[brittle sky]

I'm sorry what. She has a button aquiline. Like specifically her nose is meant to be a conventionally attractive alternative to sym's more downward pointed nose.

[fathom grove]

To me it seems very upturned and broad, its not the "Picturesque nose" i think of as "the hot one"

tbf I like it but like Its not something I'd expect to be widely liked

[brittle sky]

How is that broad

[fathom grove]

Broad is maybe the wrong word- shes got big nostrils though

[polar badge]

lf duo/friends 18+

[dawn topaz]

speaking of Brig

Or well, this related to multiple heroes but

alternate variants of their outfits with minor changes

Brig was planned to have some sort of crown in OW2

Genji had his hoodie up in the initial cinematic

yet when you want to use those looks in game, they are locked behind recolors

Brig's Ice Queen skin has the (or a) crown

Genji's Street Runner skin has the hoodie

[polar badge]

Lf duo/friends 18+

[upbeat sable]

annie this is the wrong place for that

[brittle sky]

I really don't know if the last minute crown removal was meant to save for a plot point or just them deciding she needed to look less distinct. But then with season format I could see different canon skins being the most "current", rather than just a static default. Not that I'd expect that to reflect in actual defaults, mind.

[slim wasp]

https://x.com/kirschetc/status/2035754516369269186?s=46&t=vzyexn6-XZvt--tEuV5pSw

kirsch (doomed by the narrative) (@kirschetc)

We love and accept you for who you are Mizuk– wait huh??? #Mizuki #OverwatchFanart

X · Mar 22, 2026, 4:24 PM

looking forward to the mizuki storyline

[past copper]

Who thinks Domina, Anran, and Mizuki will get summer skins the coming season?

[south torrent]

He better 🤤

[slim wasp]

we really have 2 “double agents”
with bap and mizuki

bap is bi but i hope we get some explanation for why mizuki talks like a 13 year old edgelord

[brittle sky]

Bap as a double agent?

[spare fox]

Yeah he's more of a defector than a double agent... not a double agent at all actually

[brittle sky]

Yeah that requires giving aid or information to one group while embedded in another. Sainclair style

[peak escarp]

Bap just has a secret past

[young dragon]

Because he’s a growth-stunted city kid trying to act cooler than he his while being a total scaredy cat and goober.

He’s not relaxed. But he’s trying hard to make it seem like he is.

[tired bough]

visionary...

[slim wasp]

bap is a double agent as long as mauga calling him on dates

lol

[brittle sky]

If overwatch does pull a "someone is a mole for talon", of presuming it's not a cop out answer or a meme like jpc, what is the most narratively compelling or interesting option?

[opaque tundra]

No one. I don’t think it’s in anyone’s character to betray Overwatch. I can see Baptiste being slapped onto the liar but is actually misunderstanding trope tho

[thorn moss]

I’d be very interested in getting more mirrorwatch lore

Like how we have talon mercy what would an ethical Moira look like

[dawn topaz]

Maybe one-armed? Instead of the thrill of being under pressure by her rotting arm she would do the healthy option of cutting it off

[thorn moss]

Or ult lore Mizuki where he’s the leader of the yokai and the spirits guide him to free kanezaka from the Hashimoto

And kiriko is a Hashimoto member enlisted to take them down

[thorn moss]

Cybernetic Moira. She gets disturbed when Angela starts testing her staffs power of life and death on living subjects

[dawn topaz]

Mercy but she only does it because she gets blackmailed by her evil ginger ex 👀

[wooden drift]

I kinda liked idea of switching Sigma and Moira's role

[thorn moss]

Interesting

[brittle sky]

Hah! On what material?

[wooden drift]

Make Moira insane from draining life or whatever

[thorn moss]

And I’d love to see a talon Dva or even her as gwishin

[brittle sky]

Just wait a couple seasons

[dawn topaz]

Perhaps her condition starts affecting her brain

like some kind of...brain...rot...

[thorn moss]

The gwishin omnium attempts to create a solider that mimics the meka pilots and Dva is the result

[dawn topaz]

Blueprints for Genji's cybernetic...enhancements

[thorn moss]

She saw one too many solider 6 7 emotes in deathmatch

[dawn topaz]

Mirrorwatch is interesting because there is some cases of direct swaps of counterparts whereas others are more...unique

Like Hanzo

or well, Mercy

Vengeance is the leader of Talon, right?

[thorn moss]

swap with Genji. He duels Genji and is the one that lost having to have most his body replaced

[dawn topaz]

well no I mean that we know his Mirrorwatch counterpart already and it's not that

[thorn moss]

But he’s saved by Moira and trains to accept himself under mondatta

[dawn topaz]

He's now a part of that...gang

Hashimoto clan

yeah

[thorn moss]

I’d think it be cool if they did mirrorwatch dva where’s part of the gwishin

[dawn topaz]

I mean realistically Hanzo would still win the duel in Mirrorwatch methinks

So perhaps after that he joins the Hashimoto clan or whatever

leaving Genji to become a Junker?

[thorn moss]

Then Genji is recovered by Moira and turned into a weapon

[wooden drift]

Did they never made any gwishin related skins with Dva?

[thorn moss]

No, I wish they did

[wooden drift]

Kinda weird that only bastion got one then

[thorn moss]

Maybe if they release dmon they will

[wooden drift]

If it's even dmon

[dawn topaz]

It's a shame Junker Genji is just an Epic skin

[thorn moss]

Could be a nice way to introduce the character if they do a subplot of having Dva return to Korea to help meka

[dawn topaz]

could've easily been a legendary with a more unique model

[wooden drift]

Was it bp exclusive?

[dawn topaz]

yeah

[wooden drift]

Well unfortunately they need to have these free epic skins in the bp

Genji got unlucky to be that one

[thorn moss]

They truly did nerf genji

[dawn topaz]

I mean you could probably choose someone else

[thorn moss]

[wooden drift]

Who..?

[thorn moss]

Genji is going to need healing after that

[wooden drift]

Nuh, screw genji players. Most of them are so insufferable

[dawn topaz]

Talon Echo?

seems like the easiest epic recolor to do

[thorn moss]

I need healing

[dawn topaz]

perhaps editing the face to get rid of it to push the whole "weapon" aspect, something that I love about the Stealth skins

and as a nod to early concept designs for Echo

[wooden drift]

Wasn't echo's stealth skin that?

[dawn topaz]

yeah

but I would still like a proper Mirrorwatch skins for her

[thorn moss]

Could definitely see soldier and reaper being each other in mirrorwatch

[wooden drift]

I dunno, we already have evil looking skin for echo

[thorn moss]

Radical idea; null sector Dva (have to bend the lore a ton for this)

[brittle sky]

Ramattra*, since he and mondatta swapped places, complete with ram getting done in by tracer

[wooden drift]

Sure, let's give ram and dva shippers more reasons to ship em

[dawn topaz]

implying it's not a peak ship

[wooden drift]

Me no likey

[thorn moss]

I actually did a story where I twisted her character into this

[thorn moss]

It is peak

[dawn topaz]

Mirrorwatch Venture is Juno except they are a Chud

Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller

[thorn moss]

Definitely enemies to friends type ship where they hate each other only to eventually realize they have a lot on common

[thorn moss]

Rock hating venture

[wooden drift]

A bit too much for ow, you can only do fucked up things to omnics

[dawn topaz]

What if they were also an omnic

and cannibalized other omnics

[wooden drift]

Then it's good

[dawn topaz]

Would be a fun idea for a Junker Omnic

grafting corpse parts onto themselves like some kind of frankenstein's monster

[wooden drift]

Surprising that we still not have any junker omnic in the game tbh. Not even lore character

[thorn moss]

Junkrat as junker king

[dawn topaz]

granted it's a bit difficult to stay alive in the "all rustbuckets must die" country that is australia

I'd imagine any omnic in Junkertown would have to use disguises, like a cloak or something, to keep a low profile

wouldn't want to end up as the Queen's next shoulder-pad

[thorn moss]

This is mirrorwatch canon. Swapped tracer and widow have a conversation about this

[brittle sky]

One of the only popular ships that explores something compelling about its constituent characters.

[brittle sky]

I know. I was saying as such

[wooden drift]

Fanfics?

[crisp canyon]

Vishkar rat for chaos x order ship

[brittle sky]

Then we got to address the funny mean muscle lady is building her society off genocide.

[crisp canyon]

Junker omnic is an oxymoron

[dawn topaz]

As are homophobic furries, yet they still exist

[thorn moss]

Junker queen domina

[crisp canyon]

It be that Dave Chappell sketch where he’s a blind man who loves a certain group of individuals

[dawn topaz]

Junker Queen getting jealous of Domina when she ends up taking Junkrat under her wing 👀

A "You don't realize how much you need something until it's gone" type of thing

Hire me Blizzard

[thorn moss]

Vishkar corpo: streetpig

[crisp canyon]

Corpo Rat is alr kinda saying isn’t it that would work for a skin

[dawn topaz]

I mean there is the Mob Boss skin

[crisp canyon]

That’s not the same tho

[dawn topaz]

I know, but it's a similar-ish theme

[thorn moss]

Can I completely assassinate Dva’s character to turn her into a vengeful villain for talon

[brittle sky]

20% chance that's how they play dmon in season 3

[crisp canyon]

I kinda want to see DMON be a talon member but I don’t think they’ll do it

[brittle sky]

Mostly the artist that popularized it. And did so well she's now a regular artist for the comics for blizz

[thorn moss]

Dva vs dmon

[thorn moss]

I’ve read some amazingly well done Dva x ramattra fics

[crisp canyon]

I’ll never understand that ship tbh

[thorn moss]

I’m sad the author hasn’t updated it since October though

It was peak

[dawn topaz]

It's a type of enemies to lovers with the appeal coming from the stark contrast in personalities

D.Va being "le epic gamer" with Ramattra being more...stoic

[brittle sky]

Really hope they do something so she's not just "second dva with a slightly different mood"

[dawn topaz]

It also allows to play around with Ramattra's rare appreciation for humans that do care for omnic-kind aswell as D.Va's mechanic aspect

[thorn moss]

Then the fact they are not too terribly different after all

[crisp canyon]

If she’s supposed to have some sort of bear motif I hope she’s a lot more serious and protective to contrast dva playful impish mood

[brittle sky]

Nah, recluse is missing it. It's characters who find kinship based on a mutual sense of obligation to their factions/people that is both noble (to their mind) and pushed to the extent of being self destructive, but those same obligations put them at cross purposes.

[brittle sky]

Maybe, but again "frowning dva with a different mech" doesn't feel as distinct as it could be.

[crisp canyon]

I feel like for abilities she’ll be melee to help contrast too

[thorn moss]

If she has an out of mech form they should give her a different weapon than a blaster

[crisp canyon]

Like her plasma sword if her primary and she’ll have her shield and probably a charge like rein or Mauga maybe more so Mauga tho

[brittle sky]

Likely swapping two twin energy axes based on that one image behind the skin crew

[crisp canyon]

It was an axe?

It looked like a blade

[thorn moss]

What would you want her out of mech weapon to be?

[brittle sky]

Neither. Either she's half melded into gwishin so fused to her merch or the EMP mission went so bad she's like missing a bunch of parts and needs her mech as a mobility device.

[crisp canyon]

Tbh it looks like a sword and shield still

[brittle sky]

Paired arm blades/axes seems more likely

[dawn topaz]

Yeah I don't think they are making another D.Va with the whole mech-less aspect

isn't there still bugs showing up every other update relating to D.Va?

[crisp canyon]

Selling cosmetics takes priority

[thorn moss]

That went dark

[crisp canyon]

Double blades I feel like would be hard to do with no shield

[thorn moss]

[brittle sky]

It's mecha. They're doing something wrong if they never go dark

[brittle sky]

Slam them together you got yourself a shield.

[thorn moss]

Then in mirrorwatch Dva’s shooting star cinematic goes horribly wrong

[crisp canyon]

That’s just Reinhardt

[brittle sky]

Secretly they're just killing off rein and dmon inherits his kit

[thorn moss]

Reinmon

[thorn moss]

Perhaps she needs cybernetics from that fall in the lore

[crisp canyon]

Like what

[thorn moss]

Loses and arm or leg or needs something to fix her broken spine

[crisp canyon]

Why would they do this?

[thorn moss]

Because why not

[crisp canyon]

They didn’t when dva was hurt

[thorn moss]

Because it’s fun to take your characters and twist them

[crisp canyon]

Idk

[thorn moss]

Mirrorwatch Dva: joins talon after a gwishin attack leaves her crippled and angry.

[crisp canyon]

If she her bracers had pulses that be cool, yk likehow divas is just used to call mech her could act do sum

[brittle sky]

Because characters being invincible and unimpeachable paragons of justice who are ever victorious and righteous in their violence is boring.

[crisp canyon]

I wouldn’t say so

[thorn moss]

Yeah, i just want to see one where she becomes twisted and bitter after something goes wrong

Dva has to have a cybernetic exoskeleton after that fall leaves her legs paralyzed resulting in her being bitter after her forced discharge from meka

[crisp canyon]

This is just hazard

[thorn moss]

I did have the idea that a gwishin attack was successful and the public ended up redirecting their hurt and anger onto her and blaming her for the failure because she’s the “leader” causing isolation from society and a collapse of her public image

Using a very real phenomenon of people trying to find causation for disasters

Mirrorwatch Dva: left bitter as the city that once hailed her as a hero turned its back on her. Talon sees the potential of the pilot and offers her a position in serving the organization in exchange for a chance to get back at those who wronged her.

[crisp canyon]

So is dva meant to be hazard in ur overwatch story?

[brittle sky]

You want stories where the protagonists never fail or never do wrong? In a game where the defining feature is the superhero adjacent world cops failed and did wrong?

[thorn moss]

No, more that Busan scapegoats her and kicks her out

[crisp canyon]

Wouldn’t that mean dva was only ever in it for popularity?

[thorn moss]

You can’t be the hero when everyone hates you

[crisp canyon]

Yes you can

There are many stories that are exactly that

[thorn moss]

Dva’s also human and not a moral monolith of justice

[crisp canyon]

Never fail isn’t really what I said

[crisp canyon]

Did Overwatch ever really fail ppl tho? Weren’t they shutdown for covert operations becoming public and that caused concern among a lot of global nations because of reaper killing

[merry mason]

Hate to shut down a good theory but you can see Dmon’s leg dangling from one of the mech’s arms, in the exact same way that Dva does in that one victory pose, so she can get out of the mech.

[brittle sky]

Which image?

[merry mason]

Personally I hope she’s somehow brainwashed by the Gwishin or something like that but that pose is to playful for me to believe an evil brainwashed cyborg to do

[merry mason]

The image of all of the silhouettes of the future characters. Look closely at the right side of the mech, she’s being partially blocked by the other heroes

The viewer’s right I mean

[brittle sky]

Blackwatch did assassinations either for overwatch or in its interests. And overwatch proper repeatedly broke international law and ignored sovereignty, usually in the name of wiping out criminals who half the time left a power vacuum taken by someone worse (shimada) or radicalized and escalated that faction by how heavy their response was (null sector). Then there's the situations they outright failed or ignored - gwishin, cyberia, Australia.

[thorn moss]

If they release dmon they should definitely do gwishin themed skins

[thorn moss]

Yeah, the gwishin honestly feel like they’re kept around for military propaganda purposes

Perhaps the Korean military knows exactly where the omnium is but doesn’t attack it for the sole purpose of having an excuse to build up their military

[crisp canyon]

I guess so but they’re not really written to fail

[crisp canyon]

Out of mech truthers we up

[brittle sky]

Overwatch in its original version was literally written to fail. We learn that about ten seconds after learning of the org itself

[thorn moss]

So it’s the UN rebranded

[crisp canyon]

This is not the Overwatch Jeff created anymore

It’s a new era

[thorn moss]

Talon new era

[crisp canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/say-that-again-gif-968943876633031890

In Aaron we trust

[thorn moss]

They should definitely do a sigma villain arc

[crisp canyon]

Sigma being a villain would just be him losing control of his power, he’s not evil at heart

[thorn moss]

I know

His imprisonment by vendetta causes that evil side to take over him and he goes on a rampage with the only person able to bring him back being sombra

Has to rescue him from himself

[crisp canyon]

There isn’t an evil side to sigma

At least not that I know of any implications

[thorn moss]

It’s implied in his cinematic he has a violent side even using the word “violence” in it

[crisp canyon]

Idk if that was the implication it seemed more like it showing how his mind is fractured and construed the present for the past. Just showing his perception of time and reality. The violence part seemed to come from an order while on a mission with doom and them rather than who he act is

[brittle sky]

I sure hope the new generation didn't take a look at the morally complex, thoughtful parts of the setting and go 'but they're pew pew good guys, who could do no wrong. It was just those silly bad apples in blackwatch stopping them from saving the day.'

[dawn topaz]

bad...apple...?

[brittle sky]

Yeah that's more just desperation of a guy unstuck in time and used as a weapon. I don't think there's like a secret evil alter to sigma, cuz don't you know craaazy people are dangerous?

[brittle sky]

you never heard that term, or did I stumble into punnery?

[dawn topaz]

"Bad Apple!!" is the sixth song in the soundtrack of the 1998 video game Lotus Land Story, part of the Touhou Project series made by Team Shanghai Alice.

It has since then evolved into a bit of a famous part of internet culture akin to the "can it run DOOM" trend

[brittle sky]

Wut...

[crisp canyon]

I mean…that’s kinda what it has been so far

[brittle sky]

is recluse an llm?

[dawn topaz]

No, I am simply too good at copy and pasting wikipedia articles

[peak escarp]

"bad apple" was part of an idiom long before it was a song title

[brittle sky]

all meaningful deep dives into the lore have made it clear that while blackwatch did bad stuff, it was explicitly at the behest of the larger overwatch project, and the overwatch command (morrison in particular) was happy to let them do the dirty work for the org. or take what you left behind, which made it abundantly clear that overwatch had real issues with corruption, and had folks that saw very little difference between serving overwatch or serving talon, so long as they got what they wanted (see: blackwatch going over to talon en masse, sainclair, moira).

[peak escarp]

although it's an idiom that has been corrupted to mean the opposite

[crisp canyon]

New era new world

[brittle sky]

For detailing: It's commonly used to refer to people that abuse a position of power or ruin something for everyone, though in a lot of common parlance it's used to say 'ah it was just a few select bad actors, the overall group or institution is fine and good' when the full idiom is 'a few bad apples spoils the whole batch', meaning that the corruption of those individuals does spread and compromise the larger organization or group.

[crisp canyon]

The world could use more heroes

[brittle sky]

Certain when we give this group an infinite budget to enact military operations with impunity around the world, they'll do better. See, we got a stuffy canadian rather than a gung-ho american at the helm! Now the super-cops will surely only do good things.

There's nothing wrong with infinite power, we just need to make sure it's only a good, wise king on the throne, dontcha know?

[dawn topaz]

Evil Tracer be like: Fuuuck why am I the best Tracer skin in the game...

[crisp canyon]

Winton would never allow it neither would the new recruits tbh

[crisp canyon]

That’s antifragile

[dawn topaz]

What if they fed the entire internet to Echo and then let her become judge, jury and executioner

Like Ultron, but justified

[brittle sky]

See that's the whole fallacy - if we just give the good people infinite power and leeway, surely only good things will happen. Because we think of narratives as personality-driven, all we have to do is trust the protagonists and we don't have to question the system or the impact of things.

[peak escarp]

Anubis already did this

[crisp canyon]

And that’s what will happen because ur supposed to root for Overwatch not pray on the downfall

[dawn topaz]

You can root for the evil guys

[brittle sky]

I mean while we don't know the what if any internality Anubis had in that move (it's possible it was really a mathmatical outcome), the metric seemed to be less about justice and more about preserving the biosphere

[brittle sky]

I mean, beyond any factional investment, I think the bigger thing is they tell an interesting story about what it means to make a better future. I personally think to do that well takes more nuance than 'overwatch beats the bad guys every time, and this time they do no wrong, because unlike jack or reyes or ana or whoever the people in charge are infallibly virtuous and unfailingly correct.'

[dawn topaz]

You say this like they are perfect

Winston would sacrifice Lena if it meant he got like...5 more jars of peanut butter

[peak escarp]

in an ideal future, Overwatch is disbanded once the imminent threats are dealt with

because the world doesn't need paramilitary supercops

[dawn topaz]

But who's to say new threats wouldn't emerge?

[peak escarp]

and current Overwatch was about to be shut down before Vendetta attacked

they could just call up the heroes as needed, rather than having them sit on standby

[brittle sky]

Create a state of perpetual crisis to ensure you are granted a perpetual state of power.

[merry mason]

No it’s just gonna happen coincidentally

[brittle sky]

Sure.....

[merry mason]

Yeah Winton Overwatch is gonna do a false flag operation of course

[brittle sky]

I'm not actually serious block

[merry mason]

Oh ok

[peak escarp]

Pete likes to start arguments for fun

can't lie, I do too

[merry mason]

I can respect a good ragebait

[dawn topaz]

Treat Omnics as lesser people > they get upset at constant abuse and threat of being killed in broad daylight > they retaliate with protests and counter-attacks > "look at how aggressive and dangerous these Omnics are!" > profit

[peak escarp]

I'm usually doing as devil's advocate

[dawn topaz]

Damn...running a country sounds easy as shit

[brittle sky]

(Tho given the state of the world I think if they truly make a black and white, uncritical story that just endorses having a militant interventionalist supercops saving the day all the time and nothing bad comes out of that, it would be... well not just boring as a story, but kinda irresponsible)

[brittle sky]

There's an argument that overwatch legitimately did that by accident for real. Emre (who is not infallible, but at least largely portrayed as accurate) seems to imply that their response to the king's row uprising radicalized and escalated null sector, which is at least somewhat endorsed by our view of NS's inner workings in Ramattra's reflections.

[peak escarp]

Sojourn's hesitance to return and objection to staying shows at least someone on the writing team has thought about the consequences having of supercops around

[dawn topaz]

Overwatch is...problematic?

[peak escarp]

she seems to be the only character with concerns about Overwatch's position

[brittle sky]

They kinda... forgot it was Mercy's whole deal

Just have their gung ho nature get one of the teenybopper recruits killed and/or permanently injured or something (I know they won't actually kill someone, but give real consequences then let them rebuild as a cyborg or something), then have all the critics turn on the idea (your sojourns, your mercies), while yoru winstons and tracers double down and go 'no actually this mean we gotta do overwatch even harder'. Bam, you get back to nuance, and no longer have half the cast shoved into a single dropship.

[dawn topaz]

They should kill of Reinhardt ngl

[peak escarp]

Overwatch becomes split between the idealists and the realists

[crisp canyon]

He most def would not and there’s nothing to suggest this

[brittle sky]

Winston S. "surely this time we're under investigation by the IJC is the perfect time to hire some college students" Paceape

[peak escarp]

oh I forgot S. Paceape was his pseudonym

[brittle sky]

Sure, but his death will be heroic and rallying and cathartic.

[peak escarp]

[dawn topaz]

It's an exaggeration. The point is that everyone has a weakness to be exploited, to be blackmailed with.

A more realistic example uhh

Emily as a plot device

[brittle sky]

now, you run over brigitte with a bus...

[dawn topaz]

Tracer holds her girlfriend very dear to her heart (shocking, I know) and would most definitely be willing to reluctantly make some hard decisions if it meant keeping her safe

[crisp canyon]

The story not really being set up for that

[brittle sky]

look, emily gets kidnapped by talon for a bit, but it's fiiiiine, they rescued her and she's totally unharmed, just a bit rattled. Let Tracer and Emily tie the knot, go on a nice honeymoon together all alone after.

[crisp canyon]

Exactly

[peak escarp]

yeah, she'll come back and she'll be fine

[brittle sky]

malkk, you fool

[peak escarp]

trust me

[brittle sky]

this is how we get dead tracer and blue emily

[dawn topaz]

I mean Talon does need a new Widowmaker

the old one's warranty expired

[brittle sky]

The old one's about to go through superdetox

[peak escarp]

after all, Moira is still around and she's probably perfected her methods in the last, what, 10 years?

[dawn topaz]

Emily becomes the new Widowmaker and Tracer will have to kill her (super dramatic) but it's okay because now she has a new girlfriend called Amelie

[crisp canyon]

Ow does not give enuff a fuck ab Emily to do anything crazy with her other than what u mentioned

[peak escarp]

tbh it would be kinda boring to get the same plot point twice

[brittle sky]

Was moira the one who did the main job there? I'm not sure the timeline would line up with that. Seems like Moira just did subsequent augments and continued emotional suppression.

[brittle sky]

Oh sure, not seriously suggesting they widow emily

[peak escarp]

I don't think she was originally, but they've put a lot of emphasis on Widow's reliance on Moira

even though Moira's expertise is in genetic modification, not pharmaceuticals

[brittle sky]

Sure. Which is why I'd believe she blued Widow, less so the initial implantation

Especially as I thought Gerard's mercing was prior to Moira leaving blackwatch and going to talon, unless we're going with the theory she was always double dipping

[dawn topaz]

I believe that was just flat out stated iirc

[peak escarp]

yeah Talon probably has some psychology expert on staff that handled the original "sleeper agent" settings

I think Moira was double dipping, but she wouldn't be responsible for Amelie's conditioning

[brittle sky]

evil psychologist when

[peak escarp]

just like how Mercy may have overseen Genji's cyborgization, but she didn't build his cybernetic body herself

because she isn't a cybernetics expert

[wind wind]

is the next agent the one with ties to the Hashimoto or was that a later agent

[peak escarp]

next story point is Deadlock vs. Helix

Yokai vs. Hashimoto is s3

[wind wind]

helix

kinda boring

but maybe it will be good

[peak escarp]

we don't know much about them besides that they took over Overwatch's niche after they fell

and also they control most of Overwatch's former bases

[wind wind]

Oh i didn't know that much I thought they were just like a guard unit

thats pretty cool acc

[peak escarp]

they're a paramilitary private security firm

[wooden drift]

I just want them to give her va. I'll be happy with it

[heady wigeon]

Hey guys. Got a quick question about Overwatch

Who at Overwatch is confirmed to know the identity of reaper?

I had this idea of the final battle better Reaper and Solider. Just to briefly explain the mental state of Solider—he’s getting more and more reckless trying to find reaper. Throwing himself into fights he could’ve avoided by sneaking around. Brutally beating on those who could lead him to reaper. He wants answers and yet he’s tired of the chase. Tired of the fighting. He wants out, but he needs to complete the mission.

Reaper has the exact same mindset as well. Tired of everything and just wants to be done with everyone. But he keeps living due to Moria. But his condition is getting worse—this is head cannon but Reapers will to live affects his health so if he doesn’t want to live anymore…then his health with decrease.

The scenario has Solider running away from a mass squad of talon enforcers, they gain up to him and he starts fighting. It looks like he’s about to go down when Winston shows up and helps him. I don’t think Winston knows who Solider is. Anyway the two best the talon enforcers until Doom Fist shows up. The two prepare to fight him until Reaper appears on top a building.

A very similar situation to the first episode of jjk s3 ensues. Winston tries to have Solider run away but Solider locks eyes with Reaper, who jumps off the building and both men run. Winston is confused—Doom Fist as well—until he uses the opportunity to jump Winston and knock him into the sewer.

Anyway just so that I don’t bore everyone with the details. Basically Solider kills reaper and reapers ghost/ wraith form haunts Moria and he visits his family one more time before fading away.

[peak escarp]

Mercy learned that Reaper was Reyes in the short story "Valkyrie" (she also learns that Jack and Ana are still alive)... it's likely that she told the rest of Overwatch that those three are alive

[pliant sparrow]

Whenabouts in the lore did mauga fight doomfist? Was it mentioned in a cinematic?

[nocturne flint]

They had a all out fight after Mauga joined and challenged him i think

[pliant sparrow]

Did they just say it in passing in an interview? I was trying to find a clip or something of it but I've turned up with nothing

[nocturne flint]

its a voiceline

i think

[peak escarp]

it was mentioned in his bio

As the Deepsea Raiders’ activity died down, Mauga was thirsty for more adventures. News of Akande Ogundimu killing the Scourge of Numbani reached him and piqued his interest. Seeing a worthy opponent in this so-called Doomfist, Mauga challenged him to a no-rules, anything-goes fight. Amused, Doomfist sensed something in the young man and agreed. The epic fight ended in a draw, with both men exhausted but unwilling to admit defeat. Impressed, Doomfist offered him a place with Talon, the promise of regular cybernetic upgrades, and all the chaos his two hearts desired.

[dawn topaz]

Notice how Venture vs Mauga ended with the latter retreating 👀

[cunning copper]

i dare put this question, i i i i is doomfist genuinely just a fraud

[dawn topaz]

No

[cunning copper]

i sure hope so

[dawn topaz]

Doomfist just has some awful matchups

[cunning copper]

i sure hope not

[dawn topaz]

You don't call a sheet of paper a fraud for losing to scissors and knives

[cunning copper]

this is starting to sound awfully similar to my goat

[dawn topaz]

For it can still beat rock

[cunning copper]

is Shakespeare really dead

better question is vendetta the real fraud

🤔

[dawn topaz]

No, she's hot so she can't be a fraud

[cunning copper]

okay now you're just biased

vendetta is self insert maxxing

reminds me of kiri

[dawn topaz]

Except Kiri is mid

[cunning copper]

oh yeah defo

I love playing vendetta just because she's tuff

[crisp canyon]

Freja:

[pulsar reef]

kiriko is from japan

[dawn topaz]

True, Freja is a fraud despite being hot...

[crisp canyon]

What stop this

[crisp canyon]

She’s from Kanezaka 🥸

[thorn moss]

Vendetta definitely feels like a character designed to lose

[cunning copper]

i get what you're saying

an interesting take

most villains feel this way and it's due to how cartoonish they feel

[thorn moss]

Gets to come in, mess things up then get brutally defeated ending her time in power

[cunning copper]

when you make a villain too clichéic it feels like they're just gonna get screwed up

i can't wait for the day i see any of my overwatch goats slam the fraud

[thorn moss]

She gets to lose for the simple fact she’s not doing it for the same reasons as doom

Doom: “I want humanity to become stronger”
Vendetta: “it’s my birthright”

[cunning copper]

is your pfp omnic dva? or is it just a misinterpretation

it looks cool anyway

i just got deja vu

wtf

[thorn moss]

It’s an omnic Dva I drew where she turns herself into it

[cunning copper]

really cool

anyway

[thorn moss]

Thanks!

[cunning copper]

ha

[thorn moss]

Plus she caused some of talons best agents to leave

[cunning copper]

I'm surprised widow left i actually wanna talk about this for a second

i don't understand how free widowmaker is

[thorn moss]

It would be cool to see a redemption arc for her

[cunning copper]

imagine overwatch widow oooooooouuuhhhhhh

i wonder i wonder

doesn't seem that big of a stretch if you ask me

[thorn moss]

Free of the drugs and brainwashing she finally understands the gravity of what’s she’s done and tries to make amends

[cunning copper]

she does have an overwatch skin no?

[thorn moss]

Yes

[cunning copper]

with custom voicelines too i saw some really weird ones

weird more like interesting

just insinuates a reversal of roles in the lore

[thorn moss]

Vendettas talon will fail because really only Moira and mauga are the ones there by choice

[cunning copper]

wil be interesting

I'm waiting for doom.to come back

[thorn moss]

He definitely will

[cunning copper]

i refuse to believe blizzard kills off characters

lol

[thorn moss]

I didn’t even see his body falling out that window

Just glass

Makes sense narratively. He lets vendetta fail while he possibly forms an alliance with ramattra and when she does he comes back in and reforms a stronger talon

[thorn moss]

I certainly didn’t see a body and vendetta made the mistake of not checking

[cunning copper]

dw he ulted

[thorn moss]

Always check to make sure your enemies are dead first

[cunning copper]

they cut itt out she throws him out the window and then METEOR STRIKE

[thorn moss]

Vendetta being a horror movie protag 😭

[thorn moss]

He could have latched onto the ledge and hid out of view

[thorn moss]

I can definitely share the story of your interested

[crisp canyon]

They said in the past they’re open to the idea of killing off characters in lore

[brittle sky]

I don't think they're killing off a character they barely used just to get him out of the way for someone else to run the faction he's associated with into the ground in an arc that seems entirely narrativley unsustainable.

[thorn moss]

If anything they’ll kill vendetta before doom

[dawn topaz]

Reaper76 as they die inside of a crumbling building

[thorn moss]

76 had his love now he’s loved out

[dawn topaz]

You can always love again

[thorn moss]

Not solider, he’s been holding onto it for decades

Tragic 76

[dawn topaz]

okay but Reyes is hot

so like...

[thorn moss]

Tbh when I learned he was gay I thought Reyes was his lover

[dawn topaz]

They both had crushes on eachother but tragically became enemies instead of lovers

[thorn moss]

Tbh a lovers to enemies story would have been peak

They loved each other only to become enemies as their paths diverged

Since we have Mizuki he’d be perfect in making a mirrorwatch plot of him and Kiriko

Mizuki blessed by the spirit takes up rebellion against the Hashimoto after they kill his father to free his home of kanezaka from their rule with the help of his yokai gang

[cunning copper]

oh I'd love to hear

[thorn moss]

Called “forged in a supernova” on ao3

[cunning copper]

on it

YOU'RE KIDDING ME

I ALREADY READ THIS

I'M STUPID

the first reason i liked your dva omnic art in the first place is because it reminded me of dvattra🥹🥹🥹🥹🥹🥹

[thorn moss]

Fr?

[cunning copper]

not fully

WAIT YEAH I DID READ THIS

just the first chapter though

i guess now i have to

[thorn moss]

I just updated it so it’s 10k words currently

[cunning copper]

what was it before?

[thorn moss]

7k

I’m still working on it still increasing get longer

[cunning copper]

i dmed you something, I'm trying not to go too off topic here

[pulsar reef]

my bad😢

[potent bone]

reaper WILL return to Overwatch. right..?

[crisp canyon]

No

[thorn moss]

Unlikely

It’s more likely he becomes a rouge vigilante

[potent bone]

stop, let me be delusional

[thorn moss]

Poor Reyes would be arrested immediately 😭

[potent bone]

STOP, if he doesnt reach out to ow he'll die :((

He needs mercys help

[thorn moss]

Maybe he wants to die

[potent bone]

HE DOESNT, he's only alive due to his will to live

[thorn moss]

The Anakin of OW

[potent bone]

reaper WILL rejoin ow and kill vendetta

[exotic nymph]

no he woooonttttt cmonnnnnn

[thorn moss]

If anything sigma will kill her

[exotic nymph]

that would be cool

[thorn moss]

Sigma goes insane and levels the talon base breaking containment

[exotic nymph]

yeah he can make black holes and stuff

[thorn moss]

[crisp canyon]

Apparently in actual lore he doesn’t do that it’s just something for the game

[exotic nymph]

oh what

bruh

[crisp canyon]

His abilities are the flux pretty much idk ab accretion

[exotic nymph]

what about genji is that magic or dragon god or smth

[crisp canyon]

I think common consensus it’s hard light/ hologram imbedded in the sword

[exotic nymph]

thats so cool

i love genji hes my fav

[thorn moss]

Some characters abilities are canon

Like Hanzo and Dva

[exotic nymph]

really

[thorn moss]

Dva’s abilities are entirely canon in her cinematic

[potent bone]

sigma gonna HURT her

[exotic nymph]

ohhhhh thats right

i remember watching it now

[thorn moss]

Blizzard, where’s my Miku Dva skin

[exotic nymph]

i want snake eyes genji

[thorn moss]

Ryujin no ken wo kure!

[potent bone]

No more dva skins

where are the ram skins 😭

[thorn moss]

Teto ram

[meager geyser]

I'm sad we ain't gonna get a Marvel collab

Thanos - Doomfist skin is MY DREAM

[thorn moss]

The catch is every person he punches gets kicked from the match

Even allies

If he hits a wall he himself gets kicked

[meager geyser]

Once he ults, the random half of the lobby gets kicked out

[thorn moss]

Yes

But he can only ult once per match

[thorn moss]

Finally time to introduce ramattra in this story

[meager geyser]

What story?

[thorn moss]

Messing around with Dva lore one

[meager geyser]

You're writing a fan fic?

[thorn moss]

Yeah

[meager geyser]

Oh that's so cool

[thorn moss]

Thanks!

[meager geyser]

What is it called and what is it about?

[thorn moss]

“Forged in a supernova” and it’s about a meka mission gone wrong that leaves the city attacked by the gwishin and they blame Dva then she swears revenge against humans for destroying her omnic family in which she turns herself into a robot and joins null sector

[meager geyser]

Sounds interesting. I always love trans-humanism topics

[thorn moss]

Definitely transhumanism

[dawn topaz]

D.Va is trans? Good for her

[peak escarp]

!!loreonly

[minor sapphire]

This channel is for serious discussion strictly related to the lore of Overwatch. Shitposting will result in a loss of access.

[thorn moss]

If they did mirrorwatch again they could do Hashimoto Kiriko who’s cursed by the fox

Mizuki is blessed by the spirits

[brittle sky]

Mizuki has infinite unearned confidence because his family is convinced they are preternaturally lucky

[meager geyser]

Fr, Mirrorwatch 2 would be peak

Imagine Domina as an anti-vishkar rebeliant

Or Blackwatch Ashe and Deadlock Cassidy

Tho he has a Deadlock skin already

Whatever

If Mercy can have two mythics, then he can have to Deadlocks

[thorn moss]

I was literally just thinking of this

Ashe is recruited into blackwstch by Morrison instead of cass

Lifeweaver as the face of vishkar using his biolight to oppress people

[meager geyser]

In that universe Morrison would be in Talon, so she would get recruited by Akande

[meager geyser]

Peak

[thorn moss]

Reyes recruited cass way back when so it makes sense it would be Morrison doing it for Ashe

[meager geyser]

Oh yeah

I always thought Morrison recruited Cassidy

Idk why

[thorn moss]

I could imagine that overwatch would recruit dmon over dva in this alt timeline and dva becomes bitter after a failed meka mission left busan attacked

[meager geyser]

You know what would be cool?
Shimada Genji and Blackwatch Hanzo

[thorn moss]

Hanzo loses the duel instead of genji

And is saved by Moira

[meager geyser]

Exactly

[thorn moss]

Then he goes to shambali to accept himself under mondatta

Zen starts null sector

[meager geyser]

If mirrorwatch Widow kill Mirrorwatch Tracer she says "Rammatra wanted peace" so in that universe Rammatra took the place of Mondatta

[thorn moss]

Yes

[meager geyser]

He has a Mirrorwatch skin

[thorn moss]

And zen i think took rams place

[thorn moss]

That means mondatta became a wandering monk who helped Hanzo accept his new cyborg body

[meager geyser]

Oh maybe

[meager geyser]

Or imagine if Anran got to the water collage and Wuyang to fire college

It would change probably nothing for Wuyang

But it would BRAKE Anran

She would be a totally different person

Maybe she could even abound the whole "Good example" thing and straight up join a gang or something

Tho this one is a bit fanficy

NGL

[thorn moss]

Broken Anran

Failed being the “exceptional older sister” that was expected other

It would probably make Wuyang feel more confident in his abilities though

[meager geyser]

Maybe even too confident? He's always been in Anran shadow for his whole life and now he would be the "better child"
Maybe that treatment would also change him?

[thorn moss]

A more over confident Wuyang that lets the power go to his head

[wise grotto]

i think theyd have to make wuyang a douche

[thorn moss]

Getting into fire college goes to his head and he becomes a jerk

Joins talon to prove he’s the best

[meager geyser]

Yeah, that's what I meant

[meager geyser]

Okay, maybe not that far

[thorn moss]

What about mauga taking reins place

Becomes the honorable defender

[meager geyser]

Imagine a pacifist Mauga 😭

[thorn moss]

Explaining why he defends others in a long drawn out speech while rein’s reason for being evil is “it funny”

[civic lynx]

Considering yall are discussing mirrorwatch here is the skins (that we know of) that were considered but sadly scrapped from S10

[thorn moss]

Junker Winston

Does that mean ball took his place?

[civic lynx]

I’d assume so?

Unless ball just never escaped horizon in that universe

[thorn moss]

Ball initiating the ow recall

I guess alt sym is using music to free suravasa from vishkar

[civic lynx]

I guess so

I always assumed sym’s was just a joke bc in game she has lines where she complains about lucio’s loud music

So the opposite would be her loving loud ass music

[thorn moss]

And Lucio hates music

[meager geyser]

"squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak"
"Yes Hammond! I am with you!"

[thorn moss]

Vendetta says

[meager geyser]

Vendetta would have her father, who was one of the Overwatch leaders murdered by Talon agnets

[thorn moss]

Hampter

Mei is now an evil climatologist on a quest to avenge those who died in stasis

Life weaver is the face of vishkar while domina is anti-vishkar hiding the biolight she has built

[meager geyser]

Ok hear me out

Mirrorwatch Jetpack Cat is...

Jetpack Dog

[civic lynx]

Mirrorwatch jetpack cat is brig’s fat white one and they resemble the original big and greedy concept

[meager geyser]

We should have gotten that Brig's cat fr 😔

Such a wasted opportunity

[thorn moss]

And only dps

[polar badge]

Lf duo/friends 18+

[civic lynx]

Tbh that concept would’ve looked… interesting in game 😭

Also brig loves that damn cat with every fibre of her being I don’t think she’d want to risk her being in danger

[wooden drift]

Its third time you're writing the same shit

Come on

[meager geyser]

But she's totally ok with just sending sending a totally random cat she found on a certain death in the battlezone ✌️

Perfect for "meet potential men" slander meme template

[civic lynx]

The cat tossed the damn blueprint in front of her 💔

[wooden drift]

Yeah the cat is evil

[civic lynx]

Mf saw her destiny and had to make it happen asap

[meager geyser]

Cats tend to toss random things in random places

[civic lynx]

Brig’s big and greedy white cat would require an engine powerful enough to lift a spaceship to keep her in the air

[meager geyser]

😭

[civic lynx]

Fika isn’t exactly thin but she’s a lot easier to work with

[winter hamlet]

Is genji and hanzo brothers or cousins?

[civic lynx]

Brothers

I’m not a coach 😭

[wooden drift]

Thats a weird request in lore channel

[meager geyser]

I hope one day we'll get some crazy Fika lore. Because if she's just a totally normal cat that just happens to know how to pilote an advanced jetpack then... Damn...

[wooden drift]

The cat is definitely not normal

[civic lynx]

I do think they’re keeping something from us with fika

[peak escarp]

she doesn't "just happpen to know"... Brigitte taught her, obviously

[meager geyser]

They're the same person
Genji is Hanzo from the future
Trust me bro

[wooden drift]

Even that little lore drop says "theres something special about her"

[civic lynx]

Idk how it’ll be revealed but there’s definitely more to her backstory than just randomly appearing at Gibraltar

[meager geyser]

My bet is that Fika is actually a Lovecraft monster disguised as a cat

[civic lynx]

Even at spotlight they say something like if there’s more to her story she certainly isn’t telling

[meager geyser]

That explains the demon part

[past copper]

Ok. So I thought The Omnic Post was reliable, but now I'm not certain

He said the God Programs were transported to the prison watchpoint

I don't remember that part

[jade linden]

Vendetta needs to be stopped

[civic lynx]

The wiki page for the god programs doesn’t mention this either

It just says they were deactivated and guarded by OW and doesn’t specify where and if they would still be there today (I’m assuming that’s the point he’s trying to make about the map’s lore when it’s added)

[humble bronze]

arriva la punizione

[jade linden]

Bruh what

[humble bronze]

thats ur ult slow ass blackman

[jade linden]

Oi, did something happen to Ram? I've been hearing about Ram being defeated by Sojurn or smth

[jade linden]

"☝️ 🤓 "

[civic lynx]

I believe ram mostly achieved his goal with omnics (I can’t remember what exactly the goal was someone plz explain it) and chose to retreat to Antarctica and just wait for humanity to inevitably destroy itself via war

Sojourn gave a speech to I believe the UN saying that ram/null sector are no longer a threat and ram has gone missing

He’ll probably be discovered and given a new storyline to end his presence in lore once and for all once vendetta and/or talon in general are gone

[jade linden]

Huh

See, this is one thing I hate about new OW lore, is the villains constantly lose, yet they were made to seem big and bad

Ram, now Doom

[civic lynx]

Tbh even in ow1 doom was written to win battles but inevitably lose the war

Ow is meant to be an optimistic version of our future they’re not gonna let the villains win the end game

[jade linden]

Sure, but Doom was powerful, intimidating, and had a presence pre-2019

[civic lynx]

Ram’s arc was probably meant to span multiple years via PvE but due to its cancellation and vendetta being conceptualised they chose to write ram out for the time being but leave the door open for him to come back later

[jade linden]

Idk, I get it, they're changing stuff, but why make a villain one of the most anticiptaed and extremely powerful, and make em lose to a someone half their size?

[silent shore]

IMO yeah, which is why i'm actually fine they're telegraphing how badly Vendetta is gonna lose. I think it makes sense too if they're trying to paint her as an ambitious but inexperienced newcomer with parallels to ancient rome.

Someone with a lot of skill, power, and ambition but she very clearly is overextending, has few to no truly loyal allies, and it's entirely likely Talon going for world domination is going to make Overwatch stronger since it would justify their continued existence.

[civic lynx]

Doom clearly isn’t dead and will probably be revealed to have survived at BlizzCon this September but even if he gets rid of vendetta and takes back leadership of talon he’ll just lose to OW again eventually

[silent shore]

Yep, I'm pretty sure the mobile game teased Doom's return desinge too with the beard

[past copper]

My point exactly. I read Declassified cover to cover. So I know that what he's saying isn't accurate

[silent shore]

Like I could see him no longer being part of talon or doing his own thing, but he ain't dead

[vast swift]

guys where did the reign of talon cinemetic happen?

[jade linden]

I hope he doesn't join Talon, he needs to join OW or become a Tibetan Monk (im jk)

[past copper]

Especially since if Anubus WAS transported to said facility, why bring it back to Cairo?

[silent shore]

I also don't think that OW is going to permanently kill a playable villain. Prevents them from being used in future content especially if they turn out to be popular

[civic lynx]

I assume they wanted vendetta to be the villain to reinforce this is essentially a fresh start for OW where they aren’t tied to the mistakes OW2 had

[vast swift]

thats exactly why they would do it

[vast swift]

?

[civic lynx]

Throwing ram out and replacing him with a new villain allows them to at least temporarily be completely detached from OW2/PvE

[jade linden]

Again, the most anticipated hero in OW1

[vast swift]

sombra no?

[jade linden]

It was Doom in 2017, I remember lol

[silent shore]

I really don't think anyone seriously believes he is dead

[civic lynx]

I don’t think we know

[vast swift]

oh ok

[civic lynx]

Just a talon base somewhere

[vast swift]

oh ok

[vast swift]

but that might be the exact reason he is dead

:O

maybe mercy revives him after being blackmailed?

[jade linden]

He was one of the first playable big bads in any game lol

[civic lynx]

If he was dead they would’ve specified

They’ve never once said he’s dead

Even on the website it just says vendetta has overthrown doomfist

[vast swift]

outhtrown*

[civic lynx]

They never explicitly say she killed him bc he’s coming back

[silent shore]

No? Falling deaths are pretty infamous in fiction for being a way for writers to possibly pull that character back out later on if they want them to survive. It's really tough selling a death that way in general otuside the climax of a disney movie because it leaves room for ambiguity

Legitimately BECAUSE of how Vendetta threw him out a window leads credence to his survival

It was very clearly designed to give the idea he isn't out of the picture just yet

"Never Found the BOdy" is a trope for a reason, and falling deaths are pretty commonly utilized for it

[vast swift]

but thats my exact reason; it always happens like that so now they might change it, which is why i think he DID die, but somrba blackmails mercy (prolly about moira) to res doom

[civic lynx]

Also the phrasing of this tweet during spotlight and blizzcon’s timing (fall 2026) + doom being OW’s rep in the artwork reinforces he’s not done yet

[jade linden]

I agree, I just don't like how they built him up (especially giving him the most powerful weapon in the world) and flinged him off like some lottle kid? They didn't even once continue his story, they just let him and Talon stay stagnant until OW2

[jade linden]

Have you seen the OW Rush photo of Doomfist?

[vast swift]

heres what i think:
doom is dead.

[silent shore]

IIRC Mercy can't actually ressurect in lore. There's also no reason to believe they woudln't do it otherwise. Doom was popular and the marketing team alone would stop them from doing it let alone in such an anticlimactic way

[vast swift]

HOWEVER

[civic lynx]

Yes

[jade linden]

He looks tuff ngl

[vast swift]

its in character adn it gives mercy relevance

[jade linden]

The beard is kinda funny

[civic lynx]

Mercy can’t Rez people in lore so if he’s dead there isn’t much she can do 😭

[vast swift]

mercy = hot character = sells skins = make money

[vast swift]

well maybe anran?

[civic lynx]

If he’s alive I think ow is one of the last places he would go

[silent shore]

Personally imo, the way things are going, I think there's a good chance that after Vendetta the God AIs will make their move. Either that or they're gearing up for Ram to do something. Or both

[civic lynx]

What is she gonna do 😭

[vast swift]

idk she can res

[civic lynx]

Her Rez isn’t canon either

[silent shore]

Style on him cuz she can rez and he can't/jk

[civic lynx]

It just fits the fire/slight phoenix inspiration of her kit

[jade linden]

Is Mercy's rez canon?

[civic lynx]

Same as mercy’s Rez fitting her angel theme

[silent shore]

No iirc

[civic lynx]

No

[jade linden]

Oh wow

[civic lynx]

She’s a great doctor in lore

But she can’t resurrect the dead

[jade linden]

HA, thats pretty interesting

[silent shore]

I think the implication of Ressurect might be she can bring people back from the very precipice of death, but yeah she doesn't actually rez

[crimson hearth]

lore can be diffrent then the gameplay.

[jade linden]

@civic lynx is it true that the Doomfist is the most powerful weapon a human can wield?

[civic lynx]

We do see her doing things in lore appearances she can’t do in game tho

[jade linden]

That driver got blinded by her suit 😭

[silent shore]

IIRC I think the same is for Zenyatta's discord orb? I remember a a while ago someone mentioned that it wasn't an actual orb or something I can't recall

[peak escarp]

it's just a powerful gauntlet, not THE most powerful

[jade linden]

Bruh

It was said he tore down a building with one punch...

[civic lynx]

I think people just assume it’s the most powerful from how it’s described

[peak escarp]

we haven't really seen what it can do, just the legend surrounding it

[civic lynx]

Eg mentioning how he/it can level a skyscraper in the reveal cinematic

[jade linden]

Can it not???

[jade linden]

Yeah cause blizzard 🙄

[civic lynx]

I don’t think we’ve ever actually seen it do that 😭

It’s just said to make it seem really important and powerful

[jade linden]

I mean, OW1?

[peak escarp]

a kid saying it could level a skyscraper is not the same as seeing it level a skyscraper

[jade linden]

Cinematic?

[jade linden]

A kid saying the US exists doesn't mean it does 🤷‍♂️

[civic lynx]

This was the reveal cinematic tho so they didn’t have all the extra lore and hints at its power (nor was the lore that concrete back then I assume)

They just had to describe it in a quick way as being powerful to explain why they’re fighting over it

[jade linden]

I mean, is it not lore that he 1v3'd Genji, Tracer, and Winton?

[civic lynx]

Sayin it can level a skyscraper immediately sets the stakes of this being an incredibly powerful object if handled by the enemy

[civic lynx]

He did 1v3 but I think that was also thanks to akande’s strength and skill when it comes to combat

[jade linden]

EXACTLY

[civic lynx]

The gauntlet helps but it doesn’t just give him skill he doesn’t have normally

[jade linden]

Right, including the gauntlet

[jade linden]

Yeah, I agree

[civic lynx]

Also we never see a skyscraper fall in that cinematic

[jade linden]

Ankande is a master martial artist

[civic lynx]

The most he does is toss a car (and the door)

[jade linden]

He punches winton, sending him flying

He catches tracer mid blink

He takes bullets and shurikens

I mean

[jade linden]

One punch mind you

[civic lynx]

Tbh Winston also gets folded by reaper when not in primal rage

Doom sending him flying with the gauntlet is to be expected

[peak escarp]

being able to predict Tracer's movement and catch her isn't because of the gauntlet, it's because of Akande's skill

[civic lynx]

Doesn’t mean it’s the most powerful thing ever

[jade linden]

Right, winton is 500 pounds if not over

[civic lynx]

Predicting tracer was just skill and his ability to predict enemy movement

[jade linden]

Right, which is helping the fact that Doom is skillful

What im trying to say is...

Doom has skill, strength, and the gauntlet on his side

When he had the fight with Vendetta, he barely did a thing to her except knee her in the stomach

[peak escarp]

it's simple

the writers wanted Vendetta to win, so she did

[jade linden]

Oh

Nvm

[civic lynx]

When it comes time for vendetta to be taken out of lore they’ll do the same they did to doom and just deliberately make her sloppy and lose

[peak escarp]

yep

heroes are only as strong or as weak as the plot needs them to be

[jade linden]

Yeah, but at least make the fight long or smth bruh

[jade linden]

Yeah

[peak escarp]

Reaper loses to Winston because he's the main character, but dominates in other stories when Winston isn't the enemy

[civic lynx]

Tbh it depends on how they want whoever beats her to be presented

[peak escarp]

the shortness of the fight was due to the medium

animation is expensive

[jade linden]

Doesn't microsoft own blizzard?

[peak escarp]

doesn't mean Microsoft will give them the budget they need

free cinematics don't make money

[silent shore]

TBF I thikn they could easily play into her arrogance/recklessness. It's a been a very consistent flaw- her attack on the world and Overwatch might actually justify OW's presence and strengthen their foundation, she has far fewer truly loyal allies than she may actually think, and generally her whole Empire plan comes across as potentially biting off more than she can chew.

I woudln't really be upset if the cinematic where she finally loses takes advantage of this.

[jade linden]

Eh, views and likes do

[civic lynx]

If they want the person who beats her to be seen as an equal opponent or wins but still has things to work on the fight will be longer, if they want it to be like reign of talon where vendetta is made weaker and incompetent so the other person wins without much effort then it’ll be shorter like doom’s fight

[jade linden]

And depends if it's monetized

[peak escarp]

not as much as skins and playercount

[jade linden]

Not what I meant, you said free cinematics

[tidal crystal]

lf duo/friends 18+

[jade linden]

[silent shore]

I could also see a rematch with Doomfist who's taking her more seriously and going in stronger. I don't think he really moved as much as I wanted him to in that cinematic and having a more dynamic/fast-paced fight could be cool.

Also shows him adhering to the "conflict makes you stronger" idealogy and reaffirming it by winning.

[jade linden]

Right, which is stupid imo

Build up a character and make them lose to a strawberry

[jade linden]

Tbh, comics would work

Cheaper than animating

[peak escarp]

having them lose in a fight is better than having them wrap up their arc and leave the story entirely off screen like Ramattra did

[silent shore]

Oh also, I want to see Doomfist use Meteorstrike in a canon cinematic

[peak escarp]

I love OW comics, but the general community wants animations more

[jade linden]

Thats what blizzard does 🤷‍♂️

[peak escarp]

he did in The Hero of Numbani novel

[jade linden]

Now were on the same page lol

I'd rather a show