lore-discussion

[crisp canyon]

Anyways u said urself it was practice aka not real fight

[pastel stirrup]

you're making an arbitrary rule that only real fights classify as feats

[crisp canyon]

This right here again theoretically, she’s insanely strong but in lore she’s not

[crisp canyon]

Why wouldn’t they?

Do u brag ab wins against boys b

Bots*

[pastel stirrup]

they didn't fight bots man they fought each other

[crisp canyon]

In practice 😭

[pastel stirrup]

so u think genji was just trying less ie. making a baseless assumption to fit ur narrative

u prolly haven't even opened the fucking comic

[crisp canyon]

I think deep down u realized there isn’t much to tracers name in this argument pretty early on and have just resorted trying to get some gotcha as win or make pointless troll statements like hanzo just being a guy with a sword. So I think I’ll leave it here until you can actually name something worthy of note tracer has done

[pastel stirrup]

i've already done so but you simply can't accept that genji and tracer are closer to each other in power levels than you want to believe, not sure why

if u think the point of the museum, alive and the doom cinematics was to show u how weak tracer is then u have no media literacy

and the hanzo thing was me being sarcastic yh

[crisp canyon]

That’s def what I was getting at there great job

[pastel stirrup]

they were all things you brought up as evidence to support ur stance on why u think tracer isn't strong

[crisp canyon]

Again welcome to share anything of note and I’ll continue the discussion

[pastel stirrup]

nah no point to talk to someone being intentionally dense

[crisp canyon]

Dense because I recognized practice isn’t actually fighting nameless goons aren’t even worth noting to writers

[pastel stirrup]

u literally brought up 'fighting in blackwatch' for genji like that's not fighting nameless goons and 'training with zen'
insane double standards

[shrewd pivot]

I think a miscommunication has occured between you two.

Tracer has done some feats, ie pulse bomb on a Titan in a cinematic

But again, powerscaling does not work for overwatch

[pastel stirrup]

feats just don't even fucking matter all that much

yh

like what feats does sigma have

he's still obviously strong

but no feats so malkk must think he's dogshit

🤷‍♂️

[shrewd pivot]

Sigma is deemed a dangerous weapon by Vendetta.

Sigma can float, and Sigma can float small objects.

I think it would be silly if Sigma can't do gravity crushes canonically, no need to create black holes in canon, but enough force to do a "force push" would be enough to be very dangerous imo

[pastel stirrup]

yea but no real fights!!!!11!

so no feats!!!

this is his whole premise

and it's fucking stupid

[shrewd pivot]

No need for insults.
I think Malkk was talking "in theory" vs "explicit canon" but it isn't even applicable to Overwatch characters bc powerscaling cannot determine who actually wins in a fight

Genji is a trained assassin, Tracer is not.

Tracer can time blip, Genji cannot.

That's about all that can be said

[pastel stirrup]

i gave him explicit canon examples and he discredits them but gives genji credit for feats of similar scale
just blatantly disingenuous to try and prove a point

[shrewd pivot]

Because the narrative point was that "anyone can be a hero, the world could always use more heroes" so the kid was written to stand up and be a hero. It's not power scaleable imo when the point of the short was to show that even ordinary people can do extraordinary things.

[pastel stirrup]

yea like

this guy just doesn't consider plot at all

[shrewd pivot]

Basically, if Genji was a regular human and Tracer was a regular human, a fist fight probably results in Genji winning because he is a trained assassin and Tracer is not.

Tracer is slippery, she's able to get up close to enemies and distract in canon.

But because of how overwatch is set up, anything can happen bc the situation deals the result.

seemingly even plot armor nonsense like Vendetta as a non augmented human surviving a giant robot arm hit to bare skin torso can happen. Powerscaling is pointless.

Now, speculation about "oh this might happen!" In regards to things like, the upcoming Mauga vs Junkers negotiations is a fair thing, because we can guess maybe Mauga might fight JQ or might fight Wreckingball, but ultimately anything can happen

[pastel stirrup]

nah widow simply stronger than tracer cuz muh alive cinematic ggs

[shrewd pivot]

There's no need to be antagonistic

[pastel stirrup]

ppl that argue in bad faith just piss me off

u right tho ig

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah but I think malk wasn't arguing bad faith, he was discussing a different subject entirely to what subject you were discussing, thus a miscommunication.

Malk was talking about apples, you were talking about oranges kind of thing.

It's just that overwatch can't really do "apples"(powerscaling) to begin with. Only "theoretically"

[pastel stirrup]

i don't think so, he does just straight up say tracer is weaker than widow

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, it depends on the definition of weaker ig.

Widowmaker is a trained assassin.
Tracer is not.

Tracer can time blip. Widowmaker cannot.

[edgy meadow]

powerscaling is the final pipeline stop to people who are blind to storytelling

https://tenor.com/view/sea-lion-sea-lion-sealion-spinna-gif-6572328635488597288

anyaway

[pastel stirrup]

yea basically

[edgy meadow]

lots of interaction between the japanese characters in this midseason

i wonder if its hinting that we're gonna get something about that soon

maybe sooner than we think?

[south torrent]

Season 3 🙏

[shrewd pivot]

Probably a set up for the horned hero plot yeah

Nice to see it being set up early so that it isn't such a sudden shift

[edgy meadow]

i was honestly thinking we get a comic/shortstory/etc. detailing mizuki actually commiting the betrayal this season to actually start setting up to season 3

either that or our predictions are off and its where we're going next season

[shrewd pivot]

Ooooo that would be fun if its a set up like that

I honestly really enjoyed that Genji gets to be himself in the recent voice lines. Bits of humor, that kind of thing

The Kiriko donut cravings being a reference to cultural story tropes is a really fun addition too lol

The kitsune related goddess was said to induce sweet cravings apparently, so Kiriko has a sweet tooth and craves donuts etc

[pastel stirrup]

his definition is just 'whoever wins the fight in canon'

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, it's apples and oranges, like I said.

[pastel stirrup]

it's a pretty superficial, face value-taken apple

ait im done

[shrewd pivot]

Ok... and? Can we stop bullying.

[pastel stirrup]

he's not even here im just venting

[shrewd pivot]

Not related to lore marticus, and it's not de-escalating the situation.

[pastel stirrup]

sure

[shrewd pivot]

Let's change the topic

[pastel stirrup]

the topic is me going to bed

gn

[edgy meadow]

ye i enjoyed seeing more of genji's young sibling vibe hinting at a few places

[river merlin]

people voting saying illari would loose against domina is so funny to me

[past copper]

Stan Lee put it best when saying "In any fight between fictional characters, the winner is simply whoever the scriptwriter wants to win."

And honestly, that's ALL powerscaling is. Someone pitting one fictional character against another and coming up with this and that to say who would win

At the end of the day, the true winner is whoever the scriptwriter says it is. Not the people who put the two against each other

And we saw that very example with Doomfist vs Vendetta

[shrewd pivot]

Power scaling is kind of like a fun meme tier thing to do in fandoms, a way to learn about lore as you learn /why/ people think certain characters belong there. For example, ben 10 fandom powerscaling is a very fun debate haha

But for overwatch it's not applicable like it is for other series like Ben 10 or Pokémon etc.

I like that overwatch has a narrative reason for wins/loss generally, be it a little philosophy debates set up or a movie trope reference.

Like a "Widowmaker vs Gerard" powerscaling misses the point that Widowmaker is a femme fatale media reference lol

The recent drops on Kiriko plot do make me wonder what other kinds if mid season developments we could get! That's pretty exciting honestly, could be set ups for various conflicts each new mid-season, hyyyype

[graceful swan]

ok so

hypothetically

[spare fox]

I don't think he'd consider her an omnic but he wouldn't hate her or anything

idk I don't think Echo would go rogue, but I think she could idk be corrupted somehow maybe

[graceful swan]

wdy guys think?

[spare fox]

we don't really do fan characters or fanfiction here

[graceful swan]

ah gotcha

[lime flax]

This took me down a really fun rabbit hole that made me think about what Sigma's melody might really be. His interaction with Tracer hints that people who experience spacetime distortions can perceive a certain hidden layer of reality and I personally think it's the sonification of overwatch's version of Musica Universalis, kinda like how we can hear the sonification of black holes now just wayyy deeper. I think the Iris also originated from this same source (I remember something about a quantum subatomic particle in the lore book giving Aurora consciousness i.e. basically a rare cosmic event), and while I don't think Sigma has literally "met" the Iris, I think he's moreso implying he's interacted with basically the same wellspring it draws from

The dual dodecahedrons he has really does fit the sacred geometry idea almost too perfectly, and I really love how this kind of cosmic horror is more existential rather than Lovecraftian. Awesome writing for a character who I remember reading was a last minute stand-in for Mauga in OG OW1

[shrewd pivot]

Yeye! I should have mentioned musica universalis by name in my og comment to make it easier to find, pardon!

Aurora's creation was a quantum mechanics event that does not seem tk be replicatable, atleast by Mina Liao's assertions. The awakening was a bit of a mystery on what exactly hapoemed, and the Iris is mysterious in some aspects too!

It's unclear if overwatch does canonically have some kind of "magic runes but scifi" thing but it does seem that Sigma is unable to comprehend what he witnessed during his accident and thus interprets it as a melody. Almost like his organic hardware can't quite process what he witnessed.

Lifeweaver also references sacred geometry in his origin short with the flower of life symbol, so it's not just limited to Sigma, so that's why I personally wonder if there's some kind of sacred geometry-inspired worldbuilding.

And yeah! Honestly wild how time constraints ended up producing Sigma, his origin short really is one of my favorite art pieces from overwatch :D

[lime flax]

I have a feeling the writers are hinting that the same one-in-a-billion event that gave Aurora sapience is the same thing that happened to humans hundreds of thousands of years ago

I think Sigma gets close to "seeing" it in his mind's eye, like when he visually spaces out and his hyperspheres react before settling down, but yeah he doesn't seem like he will ever get a proper answer

I wonder if Lifeweaver's whole biolight thing is going to lead to some breakthrough in this concept since he's lowk creating organic material that has the potential for real life. Maybe sacred geometry is a key component of it idk

I think you're forced to come up with more creative solutions under tighter constrictions. That's why I don't want magic to be a real thing in this universe, you could easily cop out so many interesting things

[shrewd pivot]

"The same thing that happened to humans hundreds of thousands of years ago" what do you mean by that? :o

And yeah i agree about the no magic thing! I personally like the "no true magic rule" for overwatch because scifi, even super hero scifi, creates an explanation (and thus limitation) for things, and places creative limitations to play with in writing.

[pliant yoke]

Y’all, how in the frick are Kiriko’s Kitsune and Hanzo and Genji’s dragons not magic?

[shrewd pivot]

Kiriko’s dad makes weapons, then adds in Anima Avatar technology. The Anima Avatar tech is like a story "archetype". Ie, Mizuki fits the story archetype of a Kappa (in mythos the kappa gets it's arm cut off and thus becomes indebted to do labor or provide medicine) so Kiriko’s dad made Kappa themed weapons for Mizuki.

Mizuki's weapon is an example.

If Vishkar can have teleportation tech and hard light tech, and if Illari's people can have healing pylons and solar threading tech, the Anima Avatar tech fits within worldbuilding imo

[lime flax]

Kiriko is also a legit lore breaking hero whose age doesn't even line up right. Toshiro was basically the Shimada clan's personal blacksmith which explains Genji's and Hanzo's weapons and recently Mizuki's as well

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Kiriko’s age is the only unexplained aspect thus far. Unless Kiriko somehow... time traveled, Kiriko’s age breaks lore.

[lime flax]

Definitely all speculative but I think there's been some really subtle clues sprinkled throughout. When the Shambali say we're all within the Iris then to me that is kind of hinting that human sapience drew from the same source that Aurora's did. If the theory is true and that subatomic particle went through her processors through the most perfect electrical conduction, then maybe it went through our brains the same way, idk

As for Kiriko idk wtf they're going to try to pull out of their ass, maybe she got stuck in some anima cyber realm or something and didn't even realize, which could explain her not aging appropriately

[pliant yoke]

So… the sentient dragons and kitsune (which already doesn’t work well with the story given how aurora was shown to be the only sentient tech-being and her sacrifice gave sapience only to omnics) are just holograms?

Also, for ilari, how did they justify that being tech?

[shrewd pivot]

Hm. Echo's story touches on the scifi tropes that sapience is emergent, aka Echo was created and not sapient at first, but it seems like she will eventually become sapient and then sentient.

I don't think the Iris is "conciousness" personally. It might be the leftovers of Aurora. Like, Aurora sacrificed herself individuality, became a hivemind for a moment during the awakening, then sacrificed herself.
This is speculation bit: The Iris might be akin to a godai

[pliant yoke]

At this point I feel like Overwatch is the best example for the “sci-fi and magic are the same” argument

[shrewd pivot]

The dragons have never been shown having a personality, just ornamental energy tech weaponry. The kitsune seems to have a personality though, but is Anima avatar tech.

Illari's people have ancient advanced technology. Solar threading is done at initiation for inti warriors. At Illari's initiation, her accident occured. Solar threading is like ceremonial added prosthesis.

It's not unusual. Zenyatta's meditation obs are unknown technology. The Doomfist is unknown if the og Doomfist built it himself or of it was tech passed down to him.

[shrewd pivot]

Nah, overwatch is more so "fantasy trope but scifi"

Ie, Brigitte is a holy paladin but scifi. Lúcio is a fantasy bard but scifi. Etc

[pliant yoke]

I honestly feel like they should have more explanations for things that seem outright magical rather than just “unknown tech”.

At least make up some sci-fi words that sound realistic enough to the average person or something

[shrewd pivot]

True. Though, I think it's fair if it gets revealed over time.

[pliant yoke]

It could always be both. Overwatch seems to be absolutely demolishing the distinctions between magic and tech

[shrewd pivot]

Not really. The writers have a hard "no true magic" rule.

The only magical thing thus far is Kiriko’s age lol

[lime flax]

Echo's my favorite hero and I was hoping they would get to that in the Invasion storyline but y'know

I still think the Iris is more of an anomalous remnant of a spacetime distortion caused by the Awakening than anything else. Though if it is Aurora's remains then maybe it can be reassembled (and possibly absorbed by Echo, kinda sounds cool)

[shrewd pivot]

Tbf the Iris could be any thing, there isn't truely enough information in canon to really say.

[lime flax]

True, I wonder when/if they'll ever get to it

Maybe when the Chernobog stuff becomes priority they will

[pliant yoke]

And the living kitsune, which while they say is anima tech, in action, it’s pretty much a magic spirit. And the iris, which seems to be a shining orb of… something that came out of a regular robot.

Sure they can say it’s tech, but what I’m saying is that they’re kinda breaking the distinction between tech and outright magic. Tech is doing things typically thought of as magical here

[shrewd pivot]

Overwatch is based on pulp fiction and media tropes. Aurora is a ghost in the shell reference. Zenyatta is a robot monk, and there's essentially a "scifi nirvana" vibe. It's not magic, it's technology, even if its superhero scifi powers like Sigma, it's not true magic

[lime flax]

The idea is if you showed a medieval peasant an iphone they'll probably burn you at the stake. Same concept but for us

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” - Arthur C. Clarke. I think this is what they're sticking with when it comes to OW tech

[shrewd pivot]

Actually, the one magic thing you could argue is Cassidy's reflexes.

Kiriko’s age disparity (Kiriko was apparently 12 when Genji and Hanzo's dad was killed. Not possible bc Kiriko would have to be 24 not 21)

[pliant yoke]

Yes, I’m not saying it is magic. I’m saying that this is a good example for the idea sci-fi and fantasy are just the same genre in different time periods

As guy said, tech that’s advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic

[shrewd pivot]

Not really. Fantasy has different limits, ie: a curse can remotely instantly brainwash any mortal organic.
In overwatch, nonaugmented humans can NOT be remotely globally hacked for mindcontrol

There's different limits.

Also, I prefer no magic, that way they don't run into "one true religion" issues

Because depending on how you define a soul, that meams certain religions are in canon "wrong"

Using maths as a basis for power is better bc maths is a universal

[pliant yoke]

Who’s to say they couldn’t make a device that sends out brainwaves or some sci-fi stuff to do as such?

[pliant yoke]

I mean, I don’t see a problem with that, no? Like yeah, if you see a thousand clerics under a certain God doing spells that come from this God, or see gods coming down to earth every other week to do some crap, it makes sense only one religion would be right in that canon

[shrewd pivot]

Because that would destroy the point of omnic lore. Humans have free will sapience, and awakened omnics gained free will sapience from Aurora's sacrifice.

There is singular target brainwashing tho. Like Amélie was brainwashed to be a sleeper agent for Talon. Emre as a cyborg human and is being hacked by Chernobog ai eye conspiracy.

[pliant yoke]

But I’m saying within sci-fi, something like this could happen, no?

There aren’t any limitations to either if you’re willing to BS it enough, like with the dragons and kitsune somehow being tech, with the iris existing, etc. The only thing preventing such a device from existing is maybe prior lore, not a limitation of sci-fi

[shrewd pivot]

Making "one true religion" in overwatch, a global roster of characters with various religious beliefs, would be bad imo. It delegitamizes Kiriko’s story if Shinto is proven "wrong" and it delegitamizes Reaper being atheist if "one true religion" is proven real.

Overwatch isn't about who is "right" when it comes to religious beliefs, and it shouldn't be. It lets a wide range of cultural hero tropes be told and celebrated without delegitamizing some bc of "one true religion" in canon.

[shrewd pivot]

Depends on the type of scifi.

Overwatch references pulp fiction (1950-60s) and media references. It does "fantasy class but scifi" like how Ramattra is legit a DnD "Monk: Way of the Astral self" but scifi.

What you are referencing is perhaps "psionics" (paranormal like ghost busters) or "cerebral scifi" like Dune.

Overwatch seems to keep characters to "super hero 'magics' scifi" aka something akin to Captain America

Sigma is as far as I would want overwatch to go, personally. Sacred geometry as a riff on "cosmic geometries as a source of power" would be a fine take on "runes but scifi".

Like, Winston is a planet of the apes reference. But he is explained by genetically altered hyper genius animals scifi. Not magic

[lime flax]

I do think if you make a hero who is just straight up a demon like that Luc guy from Project Titan concept art and say he comes from some underground version of sci fi hell, you risk getting a lot of backlash. Theoretically you can do whatever you want, I think you're right in that there is limitless ways you can call what's basically magic science. But again, the most creative solutions come under tight constraints. And at the end of the day, Overwatch lore is essentially just marketing for a video game, and they want to tell the best story they can with the rules that's been established

[shrewd pivot]

Atleast, I would hope so!

I will be a broken record and bring it up once again: how tf can a nonaugmented human Vendetta tank a hit to bare skin from a giant robot arm.

Like rule of cool is fun! But genji is a cyborg, which explains his feats. Mauga has upgrades, which explains his.

I do hope characters can be well written (aka written within overwatch ip worldbuilding constraints) WHILE maintaining rule of cool.

All Vendetta needed is some spinal armor to explain how she can tank hits. Or maybe something like Mauga with internal upgrades. Atm it's just Vendetta having plot armor haha

[ionic summit]

pretty much. don't ya love when the heavily augmented, trained and experienced fighter that became leader of Talon who has dealt with a swordmaster before, loses to literally a weaker swordmaster...

like, Vendetta is strong and all. but c'mon man 😭

[willow rose]

What will happen to the story after this week

[shrewd pivot]

I don't mind the idea of Vendetta winning. I mind that the way Doomfist lost was ooc imo. He WOULD hear Vendetta running at him. If he can catch both Tracer and Genji, he can catch Vendetta. It was a poorly choreographed fight scene imo.

[shrewd pivot]

Unclear. There ARE 2 more upcoming lore spots in the story page though! So atleast 2 more lore drops this season.

[willow rose]

Oh i thougth it was over after this week

[shrewd pivot]

For hero lore intros it is, atleast

We will probably get a lore bites about where overwatch will regroup to

[ionic summit]

i agree with that. you telling me he read Tracer like a book but couldn't predict Vendetta would attack him from behind? like wtf

[shrewd pivot]

The only writing thus far that did not feel utterly "tell don't show plot armor" is this comic
https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/media/comic/vengeance-comes/

I hope they improve quality of writing for Vendetta, her character deserves care in writing. Vendetta ought to be fun to witness, but so far for me it's just been 🙄 yeah yeah you didn't get to inherent your Papa's terrorist mafia empire who gaf. Which is like, not a good thing. JunkerQueen is much more engaging and charismatic to watch than Vendetta.

[willow rose]

I hope we get more lore on sigma soon

He is locked up now

But lore wise he is maybe the strongest character in ow

[shrewd pivot]

I would say Sigma has the most potential for damage, we technically don't know the canon extent of his gravity powers.

I am very interested to see where his story goes too!

[keen summit]

again i firmly stand with that its likely that he let her win

[ionic summit]

her writing was the one thing i was concerned with when she was teased. thought they'd just make her some tough girl and das kinda it. and they did. in fact, it's probably worse

[keen summit]

if vendetta won "easily" she'd be pridefull enough to re enact her "stolen" kill

[keen summit]

i think honestly her writing is good but she shouldve stayed climbing up for longer

cuz the problem is, she technically achieved her goal

[ionic summit]

if i'm gonna give the writers the benefit of doubt, yeah, he went easy on her. iirc he did treat her like a joke

[shrewd pivot]

I feel like that would do a disservice to Vendetta's character then. Because if Vendetta is meant to be this tactical pro in the gladiator arena, Vendetta would recognize Doomfist let her win.

I think it was bad writing quality. The fight wasn't even choreographed well, her slipping into the shadows like she did was pretty nonsensical in that enviorment, and they didn't even use the pillars as debris in the fight. Very boring compared to the DVA cinematic which made flying mid air visually interesting.

[keen summit]

nah i think it makes sense for both
vendetta is characterized as mainly intensely pridefull. so shed go "yeah obviously i win from him"

it also makes sense as a plan for doom
he still has a power source for potentially new gauntlet
vendetta can be extra pridefull and try to start the war he wanted
when the war starts he comes back and defeats her
he takes control of the war he wanted

[shrewd pivot]

Which doesn't make sense how she would win in the gladiator arena then. She never lost a fight in the gladiator arena lol.

[keen summit]

and? most werent that impressive

the thing is how doom lost doesnt fit his character

i think if anything he didnt expect her to cut off his arm

[shrewd pivot]

Then her being gladiator champ means nothing then? That's very disappointing worldbuilding lore for colosseo.

[ionic summit]

doomfist was WAAYY off his game in that fight. it didn't even make sense. he didn't predict she'd throw the sword at him, he didn't predict her attack from behind, he didn't predict she'd do something when he ran at her. that last one especially was especially weird. like, doomfist, lad. tf did you think that would do? 😭

[keen summit]

she is strong obviously and it doesnt mean she is WEAKER than doom. they seem equal. but if doom lets her win that doesnt mean she notices, vend is legit the definition of PRIDE, she'd go ofcourse i win easily

[shrewd pivot]

Unless Doomfist was just. Aged and regressed drastically off screen, his sudden incompetence in the fight doesn't make sense.

[keen summit]

if doom did his research he could guess shed be too pridefull to notice and would likely want to re enact her stolen kill on him

[shrewd pivot]

Idk like. I really really really hope you are right, but I don't have faith in the writers for that. I think it was just flubbed writing.

[keen summit]

and everything implies this too with how he doesnt listen to others saying she might be a problem and doesnt even seem surprised when someone comes in

[keen summit]

icl, i think its more likely

cuz if they dont then legit dooms character is completely dead

they want him to be a mastermind

but if you make him underestimate a literal lightsaber

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it's just as nonsensical as a nonaugmented human Vendetta tanking a hit to bare skin torso from a giant robot arm.

Which... unfortunately happened. Because it's bad writing.

[keen summit]

i have lots of reasons why i think he let her win tho
it fits his established character
it can help his plans
if he lets her win she wouldnt be forced to just kill him with sword so if she "won" in her head she could do the pridefull thing of throwing him down.
why wouldnt doom just shoot her when she was close?

[keen summit]

... she didnt

she never took a hit of his arm

she got kneed

thats why its so clear doom wasnt taking the fight to win

[shrewd pivot]

She did, in the La Lupa cinematic. https://youtu.be/_FihYLsnrio?si=BzrrAdnlL9uUTjo4

[keen summit]

because doom v vendetta is a 1 hit fight if both want to kill

oh i thought u meant v doom

but tbf we've seen worse in ow

[shrewd pivot]

We really haven't

Vendetta is the first nonaugmented human to tank a hit to bare skin like that

[keen summit]

mauga non augmented had a pointblank explosion and survived only needed a new heart

[shrewd pivot]

Explosions don't mean you immediately die. Soldier76 survived the Swiss HQ Explosion

[keen summit]

and he is augmented

so he doesnt count

[shrewd pivot]

Soldier76 cannot regenerate entire limbs though

[keen summit]

thing is, where does this come in for doom v vend

[shrewd pivot]

Getting caught in an explosion doesn't mean Mauga is going to be blown to bits imo. He was on deaths doorstep.

Vendetta tanled a bare skin torso hit that would break any other nonaugmented human characters spine

[ionic summit]

do we count becoming augmented to survive something? because i think Genji checks that out. still don't know how that dude survived

[shrewd pivot]

Genji survived due to mercy stabilizing him.

Genji further augmented in Blackwatch

[ionic summit]

dude was fucking cut in half. she must've been close for him not to die on the spot 😭

[keen summit]

i think its most likely doom let vend win

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it was a very immediate rescue

[keen summit]

it fits too well

[shrewd pivot]

I HOPE that's the case. But idk i don't trust the writers quality tbh

[ionic summit]

only explanation i can come up with other than "writers couldn't find another way to make vendetta leader of Talon"

[keen summit]

the explanations are
doom for some reason heavily HEAVILY underestimated vendetta
he let her win to get away with just falling
a mix of both where he first thought he could win but then decided mid fight
vendetta plot armor

doom has heavily underestimated before with ahem
trying to out punch a running, jetpack boosted, augmented gorilla while he stood stationary

[shrewd pivot]

More like, they were careless in writing Vendetta. Which imo is sexist writing to not put the time and care into writing a lady villain being allowed to be competent in the same room as a competent man villain. :/

Two characters can be competent at once. Vendetta in writing has been essentially gifted 'nerfed into incompetence foes' to defeat, granting her plot armor and cruddy "girlboss" writing. It doesn't feel like Vendetta has actually earned her victories, it feels like crappy writing not knowing how to creatively place her into worldbuilding limitations. She doesn't do anything that JunkerQueen hasn't done, save for the Italian mafia Antonio connection.

[ionic summit]

i think he just underestimated her. there's no way he could know she'd throw him out the window. she could've very easily just sliced him when he ran at her

[keen summit]

he does have a reason to suspect that

[ionic summit]

they did the same with ramattra so i think it's just blizzard can't write villains to save their lives

[keen summit]

vendetta is pridefull and she wanted to kill vialli, how did doom kill vialli? by throwing him off a building, she'd be pridefull enough to do that to him

just to prove that she could

[ionic summit]

even so, the hell would be his plan? didn't seem like there was any water down there to land in. i heavily doubt he's dead but i can't come up with a way he survived

[keen summit]

that we'll see

it was misty down there, we have zero clue what all the possibilities are

maybe he arranged someone to save him, we just dont know

[shrewd pivot]

Doomfist underestimates interpersonal connections. Any time Doomfist has been defeated, it was due to underestimating the outcomes of interpersonal connections. Efi and Orisa and Lúcio defeat Doomfist. Doomfist hurts tracer which gets Winston EXTRA motivated to hurt Doomfist. Doomfist probably did not think about the interpersonal connections of Antonio and Vialli and thus Vendetta is EXTRA motivated to defeat Doomfist.

The idea that Vendetta is the interpersonal connection Doomfist didn't value IS in character, it's just how the fight went down is ooc.

[ionic summit]

bro had sigma down there to catch him after he fell

[keen summit]

nah likely a new hero

theyll just go "this new hero saved him!"

[ionic summit]

i was mostly joking with that. but yeah probably. my guess is there is water down there. we just didn't see it

[shrewd pivot]

Like ong it would be hysterical if Doomfist essentially 5d chess rage baited Vendetta into doing all the dirty work to achieve global Talon warfare and then Doomfist swoops in to defeat Vendetta to reinforce loyalties, but idk i really don't trust the quality of writing surrounding Vendetta thus far.

I DO think Doomfist will return tho.

[keen summit]

hell ram might have saved him as an arrangement for dooms war

[keen summit]

this would fit for both of them

vend is pridefull to a fault

[shrewd pivot]

Pointless villain then. Why not use JunkerQueen who is more charismatic on screen to do Vendetta's plotline

[keen summit]

why would jq care

[shrewd pivot]

JunkerQueen raging a global war after null sector attacks the globe could easily be in character for her. She is violently anti omnic and will purge omnics. She wants power and to rule and would war humanity into extinction easily if she was in charge. She also does the modern day gladiator deal a lot more compellingly as a madmax trope PLUS she's legit named Odessa Stone, her packing up the Junkers to go on a self destructive mission in the junkrat treasure flying ship like Odysseus is on point.

Vendetta doesn't bring anything new villain wise to the table besides the Antonio lore tie.

That's why I think Vendetta beating Doomfist like she did was unfortunately just bad writing.

I do SERIOUSLY hope it's not the case though.

[keen summit]

i think she shouldve stayed "climbing" longer myself

like i think her character IS good, hell it couldve been sick having her slowly climb up

seeing her create problems

[shrewd pivot]

Vendetta is a culmination of negative stereotypes about Italy haphazardly slapped together. The writers said her emotions being shown was supposed to be empowering to see in a villainess, but the writers didn't consider "angry Italian lady" is actually a really negative racial stereotype + "Italian = pro-mafia" is a negative stereotype. Vendetta's armor isn't even Roman looking despite the fact she is supposed to be Italian, and her star wars esque sith aesthetics unfortunately ties Italian fascist imagery with... the Mafia??? Like it's negative racial stereotypes slamming the worst parts of Italy history together without tact. They also straightened her curls from concept art, pure texturism. She's not Italian she's a negative racial stereotype. The only good part about her design imo is her VA who does great work, and the dark-saber inspired sword is a pretty cool idea.

[keen summit]

i think most of the things arent that bad icl. but i do always wish she had a helmet like she seemed to have on her poster

cuz in gladiators having a helmet meant u were succesfull

usually

[shrewd pivot]

for clarity what does icl mean? Pardon

[serene fern]

I cant lose....

🤑🤑🤑

[shrewd pivot]

Ohhhh it's "I can't lie"

[shrewd pivot]

The "angry Italian lady" negative stereotype being written bc writers were trying to write an "empowering villainess showing emotion" is a big flop imo, and the texturism is def not okay.

The rest is unfortunate ignorance to Italian history. Reinhardt is basically the same situation, but I would hope they would make less ignorant designs as time went on, not more, especially not for the main villain to a new arc.

She doesn't even represent Italian "shewolf" vibes all that well. The only good Italian culture rep about her is her VA imo.

So, considering what we got (which isn't all that lovely), I just hope Vendetta can be written with more care over this arc. I want more "show don't tell" writing for Vendetta

[keen summit]

im more just curious what theyll do with her icl

[shrewd pivot]

Honestly I think the worldbuilding is badly done for Anran, Wuyang, Vendetta.

Jetpack Cat is too vague atm to say, but Fika better be intelligent enough to be able to actually consent to fight.

Domina kind of steals Symmetra's thunder for corruption but Domina's otherwise a very fun addition

and Mizuki and Emre lore are very cool additions to lore

I look forward to seeing Domina, Emre, and Mizuki lore play out.

[keen summit]

well syms arc is about stepping away more and more from vishkar

so far

[shrewd pivot]

That's fair! Same here, I hope Vendetta's fall is a satisfying finale to the arc

[keen summit]

while domina is the opposite

[keen summit]

only thing im truely worried about is that dooms return is likely in fall, so im kinda concerned about everything in between

im guessing all the heroes will be relevant to the current story

next hero is either deadlock gang member or helix

[shrewd pivot]

Symmetra used to have a pretty corrupt outlook, and Domina is so outrageously corrupt it seems like writing is kind of pushing the corrupt outlook arc onto Domina so that Symmetra can be easily redeemed

[keen summit]

i mean, sym for years now has had an arc of slowly seeing the bad side of vishkar

domina could be the breaking point

[shrewd pivot]

Doomfist was shown in the blizzcon promo art, so Doomfist could show up at blizzcon maybe.

DMON will be released around that time tho

[keen summit]

that she finally goes FUCK THIS

[keen summit]

uhhh no dmon will be out for a bit

doomfist also had a post with him saying "see you next Fall"

as a joke, but its also likely a hint

atleast i hope its early fall cuz otherwise itd be weird

cuz theres upposed to be 5 more heroes in this year so

1 hero every season and the year ends in februari

[shrewd pivot]

Def, I think Symmetra uncovering the truth about the death of Vishkar's founder will somehow involve Domina.

It's just that Symmetra has this early comic that paints her much more flawed so I feel like the writing might just ignore that suddenly and place that arc onto Domina being obviously corrupted. It's more so like a "looking from the outside" Doylist take on Domina stealing some of Symmetra's thunder there. Domina's newest text kind of solidified that for me, Coarse made some good points that I eventually came around to agreeing with once that Domina text story dropped.

[keen summit]

well yes, her early comic had that but she seemed to regret it or feel guilty

and then she learnt more and more of the fucked up stuff they do

met with lifeweaver and already disobeyed vishkars orders

basically shes already rebelling a bit

[shrewd pivot]

Yeye i just meant that for soooo long Symmetra continued to work for Vishkar, she KNEW it was wrong but was lying to herself.

That aspect doesn't just "go away" so easily

Bc if Symmetra was to actually get a redemption arc, she would have to learn that her past actions were atrocities and she has to do active work to help mend harm she had done and reject the hierarchy all together.

Symmetra having a whistleblower arc is very in line with her character though, and preserves her sabotaging spy hero fantasy

I think the best outcome would be for Symmetra to gather info, rise through the ranks, be at the top and whistleblow and expose it all, then have a "Oh, and I quit" moment bc Vishkar's current basis is profiting off of destruction. Unless that financial motive of profiting off of destruction changes, Vishkar will remain a bad entity. I wouldn't want Symmetra to be a "good king" for Vishkar, the "king system" itself shouldn't exist if that makes sense. Plus, Vishkar forces Symmetra to mask her autistic symptoms, Symmetra can't be safe there. I think a satisfying ending to Symmetra's arc would be her working as an ambassador to help guide Vishkar towards non harmful outcomes (maybe hard light tech becomes a free patent as the creator intended, with Vishkar working as an architect academy) but have Symmetra ultimately collab with Lifeweaver at Atlantic Arcology where she can truely do some good free from masking pressures. That is, assuming Symmetra gets a Baptiste style redemption arc.

[nocturne flint]

What does Vishkar do tho

İ mean ik they fw hard light

[shrewd pivot]

Vishkar does architecture and construction work

Vishkar is known to gentrify areas. They profit off of rebuilding after destruction

[round wharf]

kri’s dad created the anima avatars but from what we know lw is the first to create a form of hard light that’s “alive”

[willow rose]

I love that all the maps are folowing the lore

[civic lynx]

I wonder how frequently they’ll update since not every storyline will be global news

[merry mason]

The Rialto one make it sound like talon taking over in broad daylight isn’t that big of a deal. Like the big problem is that the locals are a bit concerned. Wouldn’t the Italian government consider this a declaration of war? State militaries seem like total pushovers in overwatch, just in general.

[cosmic crest]

I think Talon has deep ties with the Italian government

It's more surprising other countries haven't taken military action against Italy since they are so buddy buddy with Talon

[nocturne flint]

Fuck they gonna do

[crisp canyon]

It’s always the Italians

[past copper]

Interestingly, I don't think most people actually believed Talon outright existed since they operated in the shadows for many years

Which probably helped Vendetta even more in her actions

Not to mention, Talon clearly has ties with powerful people who could keep things quiet about Talon from within governments

[ocean pilot]

I love the lore of all characters related to Vishkar

[spare fox]

what's this?

it's on the OW hub

it's probably not related to the Junkers, isn't the outback more north and west Australia?

[peak escarp]

looks like Winston

[simple yacht]

actually looks like Ball if you look closer

[regal heath]

Did all the Crusaders but Reinhardt die in Eichenwald?

[civic lynx]

Ball or a new character imo

[spare fox]

it's weird and why is it there? lol

yeah they noticed it on Reddit too but everyone is memeing about Mama Hong

[spare fox]

wait wait... could it be Howl the former Junker King?

egg-ish head, no neck, with protruding ears and thinning hair?

[civic lynx]

You may be onto something

[spare fox]

oh my god can you imagine if HE gets involved in all this?!?!

and I could totally see him trying to get back in or better yet, get revenge on the Queen, and he would totally team up with Talon

[shrewd pivot]

This is so hype 🙌 updates to Numbani after so long,,,

[shrewd pivot]

Same questions I had with the Venture comic in Greece, civilians and govt are not depicted. For Italy, civilians and government impact is not depicted.

It's like the citizens just don't exist except as background npcs for La Lupa cinematic lol. Which is odd, considering Japan and Numbani etc have decently detailed civilians and govt impacts. Spain and Portugal and France got decent lore about government impacts, even notable civilians.

I still wonder if Mediterranean around southern Europe (not including Spain and Portugal, they had the durovidro wall, and France has its own lore) was hit harder by the 1st omnic crisis or not. We have confirmation the Philippines was hit hard in the 1st omnic crisis, so my guess would have been that island nations were hit hard...? Ilios isn't even a real land mass so my guess was that Greece was hit so hard that entire islands were blown off the map leaving 'new land mass' shapes like ilios behind.

[shrewd pivot]

That would be awesome if its a new character!!!

Howl would be really hype too! But I wonder how he managed to survive? JunkerQueen's family were survivalists too but only Odessa made it back alive.

[untold zealot]

Vendetta is basically a hero in Italy so that takeover seemed easy

[flint thicket]

If I am guessing who the season 3 hashimoto villain will be voiced by, I am guessing Faye mata.

[grand wedge]

looks like.. Winston?

because i went to check on the Talon page, and there are 3 silhouettes : Widow, Reaper and Sombra

so i gueess on the OW page, it's an Overwatch agent

[crisp canyon]

I was looking at old art concepts for characters I realized a scrapped character for titan ended up just being Freja but went by her nickname of huntress with a completely new design I wonder if they’re gonna continue to tap into old concepts like that and bring them in, I also noticed bruiser role seems to be a reference to a tank that never made it into the game

[wise grotto]

Bruiser is also a regular term for a style of tank in MOBAs sometimes
Frontline damage dealers without huge utilitys and decent tankiness but not huge bullet sponges

[crisp canyon]

There’s also a character called Mastermind which is now doomfist nickname, if they are gonna rework him I wonder if he’ll end up with some of the abilities because they did give him the absorb block listed when he switched over to tank

If they are tapping into old concepts, my theory is the far left hero shown off in the new heroes poster is going to be a version of psy blade and it seems like it would match given those floating crystals with it

[civic lynx]

Hazard is also a redesign of the ow1 concept phreak

It seems like a lot of the newer heroes will be modernised OW1 designs

[crisp canyon]

This one is widely known I just haven’t seen anyone talk ab Freja

[civic lynx]

Freja’s I think is just not a character people really cared about with the concept

Phreak was begged for almost as much as mama hong bc he looked cool and fit OW1’s unique style compared to other shooters

Huntress was just a character that never made it oh well

[crisp canyon]

Huntress is just what became Freja similar to hazard being phreak

[civic lynx]

Mastermind seems like they was merged into Sombra and moira

The kit revolving around disabling things is sombra’s and the face looks similar to moira

Wait nvm

That’s hive mind

I’m slow

Lemme look at the roster image

[crisp canyon]

Mastermind is cut off and this is all there is, if doom is really reworked I could see him getting this sphere unless that’s what became of sojourns

I don’t see them giving him any dark matter gun

[civic lynx]

Psyblade definitely turned into doom

They just got rid of backbreaker

[pastel stirrup]

we can see a portrait of doom with a beard in overwatch rush

[crisp canyon]

I’m aware

[pastel stirrup]

sorry abt yesterday idk why i was unchill
i still think ur wrong but we can agree to disagree

[civic lynx]

Speaking of cancelled characters I wonder if this guy (I saw things referring to him as “bio-soldier” will ever reappear in lore or as a playable hero one day

[crisp canyon]

I think the abilities def got put into doomfist but I feel like the concept of a character using some sort of telepathy hard light could be the far left hero

[civic lynx]

That would be cool

[crisp canyon]

I don’t really know what else that would be surrounding them

[civic lynx]

The theory I have is that hero is a robot or omnic that’s a reactivated war machine

They awaken and escape the iceland prison we saw at spotlight as a new map for later this year (or are broken out by talon as a last ditch effort from vendetta to win the war) and use whatever that thing wrapped around their arm is as a very powerful combat tool

If it’s hardlight it could be a version that’s more powerful than what vishkar use or it could be a new material designed for lethality

[crisp canyon]

I wonder if they’ll ever add a new status of shock or poison to the game

[civic lynx]

Some sort of toxic (poison) damage would be cool

[meager geyser]

Widowmaker's trap

[crisp canyon]

True I forgot ab that

But it’s so minor

[digital linden]

i guess you could maybe count ana’s rifle? moira’s orb?

but yeah i’d love a true poison toxicologist hero

[wooden drift]

Could be junker hero too, with focus on toxic waste

Byyyy the way, roadhog's breather thing has any lore explanation or is it just something that was made for gameplay only?

[digital linden]

i remember an interaction between him and moira where she asks “are you breathing petrol? or something more interesting?”

just did a search, it’s called hogdrogen

“Hogdrogen is a yellow pressurized chemical mixture that counteracts the effects of radiation exposure on those who inhale it. It is usually seen contained in stout yellow inhaler cans that are compatible with some gas mask filters. In Junkertown, empty cans can be found for sale at Bruce's Wreckyard. A specialized machine can be used to refill hogdrogen cans.”

i believe it’s a medicine of sorts

[wooden drift]

So, is he breathing it in universe or is gameplay thingy like Rammatra's transforming?

[shrewd pivot]

Roadhog uses hogdrogen. Hogdrogen is used by Junkers to reduce the effects of radiation poisoning.

[shrewd pivot]

Pretty sure it's canon, hogdrogen is medicine to reduce radiation poisoning.

[wooden drift]

Okay, thanks

[shrewd pivot]

I wonder if they will ever explore who specifically invented hogdrogen 🤔 or what it exactly is

[wooden drift]

Guess we have two cannon drug addicts heroes

Neat

[crisp canyon]

The only time Moira was weirded out

[wooden drift]

Junker support, trust 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[shrewd pivot]

Roadhog isn't really a drug addict. Atleast, I don't think hogdrogen is addictive? It's used to reduce radiation poisoning so the junkers don't die from radiation poisoning.

[wooden drift]

Well he did said that it tasted good. So, maybe there is SOME addiction hes having

[crisp canyon]

My boy would never touch drugs

He’s a member of dare

[wooden drift]

He murders people, I don't think him doing drugs would be out of possibilities

[shrewd pivot]

Like ik we never got explicit canon confirmation saying that "Junkers genes are mutated" but between the irradiated outback and the hogdrogen being involved with the radiation site seemingly, I have to imagine the text is implying the Junkers are mutants which would explain thier super strength and durability etc.
I saw this bc Soldier76 was a genetically modified soldier, yes his situation was hand crafted, but only a few survived the super soldier program, and Soldier76 has increased strength and agility bc if it.

[crisp canyon]

He doesn’t murder he robs

[wooden drift]

Yeah, he murders

Hes not a good guy

[crisp canyon]

Stop this defamation

[wooden drift]

Weird that some people try to make junkrat and hog innocent and stuff

[shrewd pivot]

Roadhog absolutely would murder omnics, def has killed before.

Cassidy smokes, Reinhardt likes beer, drug use is canon to overwatch. It's not ever stated that Roadhog does drugs but it's not like that omission means Roadhog would never drink, smoke, etc

[crisp canyon]

They are good boys who victim to a system that failed that failed them

[wooden drift]

Junkrat likes to blow up people

[crisp canyon]

Omnics aren’t real to me so they aren’t actually killing anything

[wooden drift]

And his in game voice lines are insane

[crisp canyon]

But do they die

[wooden drift]

If you throw bombs at people they usually die, yeah

[shrewd pivot]

They are anti omnic terrorists who went on international crime sprees involving explosives. Junkrat and Roadhog are Wile Coyote humor but they are very much madmax lethal lol

Madmax has humor that is like comically outlandish but just awful. As if Wile Coyote was irl with guts and gore. The Junkers reference it pretty clearly.

[wooden drift]

They would be scary in real life, ngl

[crisp canyon]

I would be anti omnic too ngl

I don’t fw ai

I would be a junker till I die

[wooden drift]

But their intelligence wouldn't be artificial in this case

[crisp canyon]

They’d have to prove that to me

[shrewd pivot]

Awakened omnics are sapient beings and don't deserve to die by anti-omnic human extremists

[crisp canyon]

Rammatra killed by Queen for next cinematic

[wooden drift]

Nuh, rammatra is bad

He doesn't believe in consent

[crisp canyon]

What

[wooden drift]

Kidnapping omnics I mean

They didn't ask for it

Man, sounded weird..

[crisp canyon]

The doom death reminds me wasn’t there dev interviews where they said they weren’t opposed to killing off characters in lore

Back in Kaplan days

[wooden drift]

But doomfist isn't dead. So, we're chilling

[shrewd pivot]

Ramattra does believe in consent lmafo.

Ramattra more or less views humanity as awakemed omnic's poachers, so Ramattra gathered up the endangered species into a safe facilityto prevent extinction.

Irl humanity does not honor the freedom of critically endangered species in order to save them. Humans yoink critically endangered species from the wild into safe facilities, because if those species stayed in the wild they would be poached into extinction. That's basically what Ramattra did. Yes, it IS wrong to not give the awakened omnics a choice to join tho.

[crisp canyon]

But when Queen catches Rammatra..

[wooden drift]

I dunno, forcefully taking people even with best intentions is not morally good. Like, not every omnic was living under oppression from humans. This shit just shady

[wooden drift]

Why would she go to Antarctica looking for him?

[crisp canyon]

To end the clankers

[meager geyser]

That's so random
What's next? Soldier 76 teams up with Sombra?

[wooden drift]

Sombra plays all sides, so yeah

Except Vendetta's, cuz she's too evil

[crisp canyon]

I feel like a lot more heroes should be anti omnic, they destroy the world and you think they deserve human rights now after trying to wipe out the human race

[wooden drift]

Zarya was anti omnic

And Freja anti omnic currently

[crisp canyon]

Russia is very anti omnic which I think is meant to represent their views on Homosexuality in the ow world

[wooden drift]

Or their neighbours

Russia is very stinky tbh

Ahem

[crisp canyon]

What

[wooden drift]

Nvm

[wooden drift]

Well, y'know

Starting wars

[shrewd pivot]

No omnic was truly living free from human oppression tho. Even in Numbani, there was anti omnic discrimination that happens.

Ramattra thought Mondatta was propaganding his people into inevitable extinction via his pacifist teachings. (Notably, Ramattra AND Zenyatta disagree with Mondatta, neither are pacifists anymore)

Ramattra says he will save omnics, even if those omnics "do not deserve to be saved". Aka, Ram will not let what he perceives as Mondatta-indoctrinated omnics chosing what they were indoctrinated to chose (not to join, just to die by humanity's negligence eventually).

It's akin to yanking a guy off a road track before a train kills him. Sure, you used violence to yank him and didn't give him a choice, but you did save his life. That's the philosophy Ramattra has.

[wooden drift]

With their neighbouring countries

[meager geyser]

Yeah, let's not get political

[crisp canyon]

Russia has no buisness in Ukraine I’m not afraid to say it

[meager geyser]

Or you'll get one shot once someone notices the existence of this channel

[wooden drift]

🤫

[crisp canyon]

There’s no way the offical ow server is pro Russia

[wooden drift]

God I hope not

[meager geyser]

It is a-political

[crisp canyon]

Now if you mention a certain place and its leader they will infact warn you, which I think is dumb

[wooden drift]

Would suck as ukrainian

[meager geyser]

I mean, they have removed the "Z" from one of Zaria skins a few years ago

And were not giving her any cosmetics since the war

[crisp canyon]

She got cyber enforcer in June

[meager geyser]

So I think they want to stay away from it

[shrewd pivot]

It wasn't all sapient omnics that committed crimes though. Awakened omnics were born innocent. Many awakened omnics choice to stop trying to kill humans, those omnics do not deserve hatred.

That said, the 1st omnic crisis was brutal so it's not ooc that there would be anti omnic sentiment in the world. many areas ARE anti omnic. Colosseo map is very anti omnic. I was very suprised that Vendetta didn't end up being anti omnic.

[crisp canyon]

I think Zarya is just not a character that has a desiccated fan base she’s like on of those characters, that only has players when she’s meta

[wooden drift]

And new era skin

[wooden drift]

She's too power hungry to be racist I guess

[meager geyser]

Tbh I don't know why Zarya is joining Overwatch

[past copper]

And Talon Skin

[meager geyser]

It's just so random

[crisp canyon]

Vendetta killed doom on bhm tho

[past copper]

Did you see a body?

[wooden drift]

She was in overwatch for awhile

[meager geyser]

Like she has always been connected to Volskaya

She isn't now? Did I miss something?

[crisp canyon]

Realistically where else would Zarya go in ow

[meager geyser]

Talon

[crisp canyon]

Why

[past copper]

She joined Overwatch for two reasons. One) because she's become doubtful of her leader after her meeting with Sombra

[meager geyser]

Volskaya is the type of corporation to do business with them

[past copper]

Two) because Cole offered her a chance to be apart of something bigger. Overwatch

[meager geyser]

Really? When?

[past copper]

The New Blood comics

[meager geyser]

I had no idea they met

[wooden drift]

In ow1 days. Cass had side plot that was about getting people into overwatch

[crisp canyon]

I don’t think Zarya is really affiliated with volskaya she’s more of hometown hero type for Russia that volskaya employed

[meager geyser]

I missed that? Damn

[crisp canyon]

It’s referred to in vc lines with soj

[shrewd pivot]

Considering overwatch's stance on past things, it doesn't suprise me. Pretty wild that a global roster game about superheroes saving the world based on pulp fiction + media refs that include direct political commentary, can't actually say "warcrimes are bad" lest they get financial backlash.

[past copper]

Regardless. Cole's offer to join Overwatch gave Zarya more hope then what her leader gave. Especially since Sombra basically told Zarya that her leader was lying to her and all of her people about her company's tech

[shrewd pivot]

Being anti-omnic is Specist, but yeah it seems her ego is so big she deems everyone beneath her.

[past copper]

They do that subtly

[crisp canyon]

Zarya also had help from an omnic named LYNX didn’t she, that was also the first canon nb character I think

[meager geyser]

It's funny, because even Fortnite publicly condemned Russia's actions and sent donations to Ukraine, but Overwatch didn't

[past copper]

Like someone bringing up how the Ravagers were hunted down and killed after the war

[shrewd pivot]

Doomfist is alive most likely

[crisp canyon]

The Chinese market is too important

[past copper]

Note. They don't specify who hunted them down and killed them

[shrewd pivot]

Didn't mean to bring up specifics on politics due to server rules, I just find it kind of wild that Overwatch is based on things like Captain America (Soldier76 is also a super soldier) but has done what is has done.

[crisp canyon]

Dva being enlisted in the Korean Air Force and having no dialogue ab NK

[wooden drift]

Well, overwatch is still supported in russia. It get's new voiced lines and translation. So, I don't think this would be changing anytime soon

[past copper]

Maybe because Fortnite can afford to send players money through donations since most of the games money comes from the many contracts they have with bigger corporations

[meager geyser]

Definitely
They could have killed him in 10 different PG 12 ways, but chose the only ambiguous and uncertain way of showing his "death"

[shrewd pivot]

Hawai'i became independent from the USA and joined the Polynesian league in overwatch lore.

If they wanted an optumistic future they could have written other country line differences. It's set in the future after all, country lines change through history.

[crisp canyon]

Overwatch act being progressive politically?

[meager geyser]

Writers don't have balls to do some crazy political sci-fi

[wooden drift]

I would call overwatch kinda centrist tbh

[crisp canyon]

This is what I mean when it makes no sense how hazard isn’t for a free Scotland the other day

[shrewd pivot]

For Hawai'i atleast lol

[crisp canyon]

They’re capabale of creative freedom and world building but choose not too

[wooden drift]

Definitely not full freedom

You don't have free reign under big company

[crisp canyon]

Free unless it’s China and allies and certain political state

[wooden drift]

Yup

[shrewd pivot]

Honestly my guess is that they didn't incorperate his Scottish heritage until later on in his design.

But he is anarchist, so maybe that could be a wink and nod to the media tropes of that without outright saying it.

Hazard has "spring heeled jack" + a English bulldog buckle (English Bulldog is extremely British iconography). Very... not Scottish I'll say that.

[meager geyser]

All hail lord Tencet!

[shrewd pivot]

More like all hail money!

I am yet again reminded of how Vendetta's star wars influence completely missed the fact star wars depicted Sith empire grandiose power flaunts as horrifying and grossly corrupt with OPERATIC context (so yes it's dramatic, but for terror, not coolness). Vendetta is aura farming sith aesthetics like it's actually cool.

Atleast with JunkerQueen's presentation the madmax inspo makes it obviously dark humored "oh this is messed UP"

[crisp canyon]

Collab with beaststars we make a billion dollars

[shrewd pivot]

What does that have to do with my comment? :o I think i know beastars lore but I didn't really watch it

[crisp canyon]

Money

[shrewd pivot]

Oh. Well, if overwatch does any of the collab lists like Disney villains or others then yeah I could see big sales

[crisp canyon]

If Fortnite doesn’t have the ok ow doesn’t have the okay for the collab unless it’s like something they specifically reach out for to get

[shrewd pivot]

Something i do wish tho, is that if collabs will change map geometry for limited sales of collab skins (Persona had some, now Nier) can they... actually add more lore objects to maps.

Morroco map did not have a lot of lore, and the hazard phreaks spot is like. Just decoration, there's no info like for Samoa or Junk city, not even a phreaks hide out like on the Toronto map

[digital linden]

just heard moira say "oh, but you are lost without me" when killing reaper

[shrewd pivot]

Ok I feel really silly for just realizing this but. The more I think about overwatch name not being meaningfully chosen, and how the overwatch art book described the Greek map as a "low tech" map uh.

Ok, as a Greek, ilios always seemed like a dystopian map.
I had assumed this was done on purpose because the land mass doesn't actually exist (remains of an island blown up???), Talon was stealing artifacts plotline lingered for years (looting and pillaging history), and it had Santorini aesthetics but distinctly in... white and blue.

I forget that many don't know the history behind Santorini's aesthetic, but with ONLY white and blue, it is indicating Greek Junta era (violent oppressive dictatorship) mandates for nationalistic housing 💀
Like, imagine if your country forced houses to be painted in country's flag colors for nationalism. Yeah.

Plus, ilios is gentrified and touristy. Looking at that map as a Greek I saw a dystopia despite the "quaint" look.

Because other maps had some bleak worldbuilding despite the pretty aesthetics, I assumed they uh. Intentionally applied Santorini Greek Junta neo-fascist imagery onto Rhodes, a COMPLETELY different area. Implying Greece was NOT doing okay after the crisis.

For context: the white limestone covering is historical, used for cooling houses and disinfectant so that mold doesn't grow on the houses from the sea moisture. Greece has reclaimed the Junta mandated aesthetic by using the historical white limestone covering but with MULTIPLE colors not just blue, for tourism appeal.

I'm thinking about how they used an Italian town for inspo on the Dorado map... if the devs did not know about the Junta mandated white and blue thing 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 duuuuuude that's actually so bad

[wise grotto]

I mean

There’s also the thing of the world isn’t the same in ow as it is irl they could just geniunely not follow the same rules country to country

[shrewd pivot]

If Cyprus exists in overwatch as it does today, the Greek Junta would have in fact occured. The Greek Junta history is the reason Cyprus is the way it is today.

Like, Santorini blue and white comes from neo-fascist mandates, you can't really... seperate it from that.

[wise grotto]

But we don’t know that’s exactly how it went down
We can say “well it must be” but we have no confirmation and no reason to objectively say it’s this way because of this

[shrewd pivot]

I mean. If you put neo-fascist aesthetics in a map, that would hopefully be done on purpose to imply something is wrong... not unironically using the aesthetics as "oh isn't this so beautiful guys?".

[spare fox]

or it could just not be implying anything

they made it that way because it's a fantasy location inspired by real world aesthetics

[shrewd pivot]

Using historical imagery DOES imply things though

[spare fox]

not necessarily

[shrewd pivot]

Just so i understand, do you think they were ignorant about the history when making this map? Or do you think they knew the history?

[spare fox]

I don't think it matters in this case. They wanted a map that looked 'Greek'

[shrewd pivot]

But using neo-fascist imagery is beyond a "big oopsie" if they didn't know the history, to put it lightly.
And if they did know, it's a really bad thing to use neo-fascist imagery as unironic positive beauty

[shrewd pivot]

How does it not matter? When representing a culture, using certain historical aesthetics is a part of story telling.

[spare fox]

Do YOU think every single use of Greek flag colors in Greece is promoting and/or forgetting about neo-fascist juntas?

[shrewd pivot]

No, why would I? What a ridiculous question, "every single use" is a ridiculous statement, there are various contexts in which it isn't.

I am talking about context

The entire map in Rhodes area setting, is dressed up like Junta Era Santorini (two completely different island regions)

Overwatch has used historical aesthetics to do storytelling in other maps. Why would overwatch apply that storytelling method to every map but ilios? That doesn't make sense.

I originally thought they were actually implying Greece was dystopian. If that was not the intention, then... Either the devs didn't know the history which is cringe, or they knew the history and are using it as unironic beauty which is cringe.

[fallow knot]

THIS IS JUST A FANFICTION IDEA AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED CANON IN ANY TERMS: What if there was an Overwatch AU (alternate universe) based on the premise of Marvel ruins (a more dark and sad version of our beloved heroes)

[shrewd pivot]

Unfortunately, the channel rules say no fanfiction here

[fallow knot]

ow, sorry

[shrewd pivot]

No worries!

You're good

[fallow knot]

em, ¿why is the gameplay and the game itself not canon to the lore?

@shrewd pivot

[shrewd pivot]

Because there is a hard "no true magic" rule in canon, and overwatch mechanics are often cartoony. Ie, Reaper souls are not canon but are a game mechanic

[fallow knot]

ok

[fallow knot]

and kiriko?

[shrewd pivot]

Kiriko’s ofuda that has the kitsune, Mizuki weapon, Genji’s dragon blade, Hanzo's storm bow and dragon, are all "Anima avatar technology".

Kiriko’s dad makes a weapon, then adds the tech. The technology is an energy weapon. Kiriko’s dad uses "archetypes" like Kappa mythos (in mythos a Kappa gets it's arm cut off, and is indebted to do labor and provide medicine) in the energy weapon tech design, and gives it to the person he thinks fits the archetype (Mizuki in this case)

[fallow knot]

ok X2

[shrewd pivot]

I honestly really like how the the Anima Avatar technology worldbuilding is designed. Kiriko’s dad custom crafts archetypes for each user, similar to the archetype story from the Dragons cinematic where Genji's and Hanzo's story was compared to a fable about a green dragon and a blue dragon. That fable style story telling is a real Japanese storytelling style, so it's cool that overwatch embraced that genre in the Anima Avatar technology worldbuilding.

It's having people use technology to embrace culture and faith, which is nice bc it allows Shinto based story telling to have full merit/weight in overwatch's world without discrediting non Shinto based story telling, avoids the "one true religion" issue.

I would love to see more technology that embraces cultural storytelling styles like how Anima Avatar technology does. Orisa in a way is kind of like that, Orisa has the Orisha shrine / festival costume but technology deal going on, all without a "one true religion" issue.

And in a less direct way, Brigitte being a holy paladin but with technology instead of heavenly smiting light, allows Brigitte to do the fun Squire "roaming knight" story telling with Reinhardt, all without a "one true religion" issue.

[blazing badge]

Is Sombra working more closely with illari and soldier after her departure with Talon or do we not know yet

[ionic summit]

We haven't seen or heard from soldier in a while from what i know

[blazing badge]

As of a few months ago he’s mentoring illari

And they’re working together to hunt down some kind of group I forgot what theyre called

[ionic summit]

That i haven't seen. Do you have whatever this is from?

[blazing badge]

The Futures Past Overwatch short story from blizzard

[ionic summit]

Ah, aight. In that case, who knows

[blazing badge]

It’s a cool lil story too i recommend it

[ionic summit]

I'll check it out when i'm free

[oblique spoke]

I still don't know what Illari has to do with Overwatch lore.

[civic lynx]

I only just noticed this but who are these ? meant to be on the conquest tab

Do any of them resemble talon agents we’ve seen in comics or stories

[meager geyser]

Not much tbh
She doesn't know any other heroes
She isn't part of any organisation
She didn't took part in any important lore event
She can be in any sci-fi universe, no reason why she's in Overwatch

The only exception is that she met Soldier 76, but she only met him and that where it ends

[oblique spoke]

As I recall there was one pre-match dialogue with Sombra, hired to search something for Illari, but nothing more.

I don't recall that meeting with Soldier 76.

[meager geyser]

Keep in mind, pre-match dialogue is not canon. This is more of "what these characters COULD say IF they met"

[oblique spoke]

😢

[meager geyser]

I think it was in some short story

[oblique spoke]

Ah, must have been.

[swift trout]

The destruction of the Inti Warriors is related to the Conspiracy in some fashion, if memory serves.

[wheat maple]

Widow, Reaper and Sombra

[past copper]

Theory about the mystery character in Australia. Former Junker King Howl

Returning as the mech hero set to be released this year

The man has been MIA since Dez became Junker Queen and banished him from Junkertown

Who's to say he wasn't able to get his hands on a bigger and better mech during his banishment?

[civic lynx]

The mech hero in S4 is pretty much confirmed as d.mon thanks to spotlight but howl as a mech hero that isn’t similar to dva would be cool for next year

[spare fox]

The mech def does NOT have the look of something built or manned by a wastelander

It's too sleek and designed

[past copper]

Riiiight. Because a guy who got his ass handed to him is gonna be dumb enough to make the same mistake twice with another piece of junk

Instead of get his hands on something way bigger, better, and deadlier to get his petty revenge

[spare fox]

I guess but the silhouette matches DMon

[past copper]

Junkers aren't exactly beyond committing crimes or stealing whatsoever they want for whatever purpose

[spare fox]

That would be a huge coincidence

I do think that this silhouette is possibly Howl

[past copper]

Like Junkrat and Roadhog's plan to bomb the queen's throne using the gold they stole as a Trojan Horse

Well. Junkrat's plan

[spare fox]

I'm not saying they're not above stealing a mech but it seems like a bit of a stretch that Howl would have Beast

[past copper]

It depends. If negotaions don't work for Mauga with Dez

Perhaps someone with insider knowledge of Junkertown's inner workings can be more agreeable

For a price of one Talon constructed mech

[spare fox]

Hmmm what if... what if since JQ and WB have the ship and she wants to go on a 'road trip'

What if Mauga gets there when those two are away, and Howl convinces Mauga that he IS in fact, he King - at least temporarily -

It would go with Odessa's namesake (Odysseus)

[past copper]

We will see, but Wastelander isn't the last we see of Howl

Something tells me he'll make his return on Mauga's mission to the Outback

Whether not he is worth making a hero depends on him getting his mech back or a brand new one

[spare fox]

Yeah I really think that that silhouette icon in Aus is Howl

It's been 10+ years so who knows what he's been up to... besides surviving

[spare fox]

Also he's likely to be around Roadhog's age.. I wonder if we'll get more ALF era details

[ocean pilot]

Excuse me, what does ALF mean?

[spare fox]

Australian Liberation Front. After the crisis the Aus government gave a bunch of Outback land to the omnics for their omnium, a bunch of locals didn't like that so they made the ALF

And the ALF caused the omnium to basically explode (not exactly that) and that is what irradiated the land and the ruins are junkertown/new junk city

[ocean pilot]

Oh okay thank you

[crisp canyon]

Widow reaper and sombra

I think howl is a one off character and nothing more, I don’t expect him to serve any more of a purpose other than showing queens origin

[spare fox]

You might be right, but still... wtf is with that mystery icon on the map??

Also bringing in Howl would be a conflict for Roadhog as he likely was loyal to him

[crisp canyon]

It looks like it’s Winston tbh it’s that or unknown character in jacket or suit, but I don’t think they’re coming up with new character art for howl who was last “fending for himself in the wasteland” which to me seems more like killing off

Rather than howl will return in ow doomsday

[spare fox]

Yeah looking at the icon it could be Winston but... why would it be there? The Sombra, Reaper, Widow ones are on the Talon hub bc they're MIA

[crisp canyon]

I mean do we know where Winston is rn after the attack

[digital linden]

was he not in the anran omnic?

i must’ve completely missed that

[wise grotto]

He was supposed to be it was a artists mistake

[peak escarp]

Winston was there

[wise grotto]

We know for a fact he’s with the rest of them they just missed drawing them in

Oh he’s just there

So yea we know exactly where Winston is purely

He’s hidden in the back corner with orisa (who I’m kinda suprised is there)

[shrewd pivot]

Winston is in the upper left corner

Mercy, JPC, and Bastion were supposed to be in this comic but they were not added by mistake

Yeye

[peak escarp]

we already knew Orisa was recruited

https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24160202/correspondence-greetings-from-watchpoint-gibraltar/

[pastel stirrup]

wait who's stood to the right of tracer

[shrewd pivot]

Pharah

[pastel stirrup]

oh

[shrewd pivot]

Pharah's hair is miscolored for whatever reason, it should be less brown than Tracer's hair bc Pharah has black hair

There is a blue shoulder piece of pharah

[wise grotto]

I’m just suprised she was there right now o feel like they’d wanna go back to numbani if attacks like this are happening

[peak escarp]

this is the first attack

and why would Vendetta attack Numbani?

[shrewd pivot]

In a heroes ascendant story, Efi sets up Junies to protect Numbani. That way, Efi and Orisa could go join overwatch while still keeping Numbani safe with Junies.

[wise grotto]

That makes sense

[wise grotto]

Because the last time there was a first attack of an invasion other attacks started immediately happening I feel like I’d immediately worry about that after it hadn’t even been that long yet

[peak escarp]

but this was a targetted attack against Overwatch specifically

Numbani wouldn't be in any danger

[meager geyser]

Now, that I think about it

Why is Cassidy there?

Didn't he tell Echo: "The're bringing the band back together. They want me, but really? They want you." ?

[peak escarp]

he spent a 5-part comic series recruiting new members

[meager geyser]

I thought by that he meant that he's not joying Overwatch 2.0

[peak escarp]

and he was there for the Invasion missions

[meager geyser]

So maybe blizzard change their minds on not including him

[peak escarp]

he never said he wasn't answering the Recall

Just that they needed Echo more than they needed him

[jade linden]

Ew, Overwatch?

Im just waiting for Doomfist to come back so he can wipe that smile off everyone's face...

[whole whale]

yo i havent kept up with ow lore in a long time, but last time i watched some lore videos there were no magical stuff, now theres yaokai?, does anyone else use magic then? [except the Japanese]

[brittle sky]

The yokai do not use magic

They just style themselves after creatures from Japanese folklore, like how mercy uses angelic imagery or rein uses knight stuff.

At least two of their members, kiriko and mizuki, use what's called anima tech, weapons with poorly understood (thus far, poorly defined) powers that are the same as the shimada's tech.

[whole whale]

but they mention "the fox spirit" so many times

[whole whale]

any idea what mizuki is supposed to be?

a kappa?

[brittle sky]

Kappa yeah

[brittle sky]

Kiriko was raised by her grandma who tended a shinto esque shrine to a local fox spirit. Her dad, the guy that makes anima weapons, made the weapons kiriko would come to use as a gift to his future mother in law, made to manifest their energy in an avatar resembling the fox spirit. Again, anima weapons are not super explained, but they're treated like tech, so it's a bit like he made a weapon whose avatar resembles a local belief, and people naturally conflate the technological avatar with the spirit it resembles.

[whole whale]

oh cool

[whole whale]

also just heard this, his ult voice line says "Protect us, kekkai" [idk what kekkai is], so prbly not kappa

[edgy meadow]

doing some surface reading online, Kekkai is a japanese-buddhist term describing a spiritual barrier

[crisp canyon]

The sanctuary part of the name I think is for ppl who don’t know this

[shrewd pivot]

Mizuki is based on a Kappa: his clothing says kappa, he has a shell like hat (or Kappa water dish ref), and his lore aligns with Kappa mythos (The mythos is that a Kappa gets it's arm cut off by an attacker, and becomes indebted to do labor or provide medicine to the attacker in an attempt to get it's arm back. Mizuki was forced to work for Hashimoto due to family debt, and currently he is missing and arm(he has a prosthetic arm), and he is a support)

"Kekkai" is a sacred space in Japanese, a divider between the mundane and sacred, somewhat similar to a holy barrier priests make that do not let demons cross. Kekkai in media are usually depicted as forcefields etc, which explains Mizuki's ult

Actually Kiriko’s torii gates ult is another kind of kekkai technically!

It's just signifies a sacred space, a boundary between mundane and sacred/spiritual

[fast flicker]

Hi everyone, I'd like to ask a few questions. To be brief, I've been writing a story about the Overwatch universe for over a year now, and I need some pointers on small things I might have missed or that I'm taking away from other parts of the already known lore. My questions are as follows:

• Is there anything else known about Italy aside from the Vendetta lore and what happened at Rialto?
• In what period do you think the story is set? Because I assumed that in OW 2 it was around 2077, while OW 1 is set between 2073 and onward, maybe even earlier, but at the moment it's set in 2071.
• Is it possible that to justify some plot choices, I can also use biology or other scientific elements for some things that might still seem unnatural?

Thanks for your answers.

[civic lynx]

I’m not the most knowledgeable on the 1st and 3rd questions but to answer the second I believe OW1 was set in 2075 and OW2 is 2 years later in 2077

[crisp canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/cyber-punk-2077-cdpr-cd-project-gif-11981266

[brittle sky]

What biology are you looking for? Between Moira, Biolight, sep, and notion a lot can be done with biology. What unnaturality we talking?

While most of Italy's lore was covered by its role for talon and/or related to vendetta (retribution, the colosseo), there is also the villa at malevento, said to be related to a cursed Renaissance painter Caterina Pastore.

[fast flicker]

ok thank you

[dawn topaz]

There are some cases of "magic" when it comes to stuff like Kiriko's fox or Zenyatta's floating and the Iris

[fast flicker]

If I have to compare like what is my vision is, most likely a thing equal with Resident Evil, i wanted to do something most original as i can... For the unnatural part is not that deep, at least in the first the thing is like more reliable on technology but aside from thing that can be related to Albert Wesker from Resident Evil, we are talking about Destiny 2 kind of thing, even if nerfed for most part

[fast flicker]

thank you, even if now kiriko's fox is out of the category somehow

[peak escarp]

my best estimates place OW1 in 2077 and OW2 in 2079

[fast flicker]

mh... Interesting

[brittle sky]

Well without knowing the details can't really say how off it would be from ow's norm, really.

[fast flicker]

yeah this make sense

[shrewd pivot]

1. not much about Italy outside of Antonio, Vialli, and Vendetta lore. You could look into surrounding country lore for inspo.
2. using Junkrat’s leap year + Ramattra build date + an Echo post iirc, my guesstimation is 2077 ow1, and 2079 ow2, and the current Vendetta arc likely moves the story forward chronologically now.
3. Overwatch has a hard "no true magic" rule, things are said to be advanced technology. However, there is still "superhero scifi powers" like Sigma with gravity powers. If it helps, overwatch uses pulp fiction genre refs from 1950s-1960s, as well as famous cinema and media references. There is also "dnd fantasy class but scifi" like how Ramattra is a DnD "Monk: Way of the Astral Self" but scifi. Using homages might help create believability. Reading the book "Overwatch Declassified" can give a good idea about worldbuilding.

[fast flicker]

Thanks, this was very helpful... Ugh, I just wish I had the chance to have someone read this but I know that would be asking too much, especially since it's not a comic but a pdf file

but thanks for the help you all

[round bramble]

Since when were Dva, Zarya and Orisa apart of Overwatch?

[dawn topaz]

Isn't it the fresh blood comic?

Cassidy goes around recruiting Pharah, Baptiste, Zarya and D.Va

[sturdy moss]

yea it is

[wise grotto]

Since cass recruited a bunch of people
Orisa was recruited separately and much more recently

Efi and orisa joined after efi made junies to protect numbani while she and orisa aren’t ther

[dry pebble]

How much we know about Collegues of Moira in Oasis, and how similar their affect on science within cruelty of Moira

[wooden drift]

Absolutely nothing, I presume

[dry pebble]

Other than interaction is criminal

[ripe elm]

Quick question, at what point before the latest lore drop did Ana, Juno, Orisa and Efi join the reformed Overwatch?

I assumed Ana was still acting as a mercenary, Juno was still exploring and Orisa and Efi were defending Numbani?

[shrewd pivot]

Ana was last depicted at the Xmas comic for a family reunion, not really confirmed to be working with overwatch at that time tho

Juno joined overwatch when she landed on earth, Mei is helping Juno to try and save the people stranded on Mars colony.

Orisa and Efi joined overwatch in an update post but it was explored in a heroes ascendant story! Junies keep watch over Numbani, so that Efi and Orisacan join overwatch.
https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24160202/correspondence-greetings-from-watchpoint-gibraltar/

[hushed shard]

have the devs given up on explaining how no one is "not using magic" when kiri can teleport and anran can burst into fire

[brittle sky]

I think those may be meant to be seen as metaphoric at least with anran (in the same say res is), and kiriko's might be an extension of her ofuda, which are confirmed to be anima tech.

[civic lynx]

I assume they’re either meant to be metaphoric lol the other person said or there just not canon like mercy’s Rez, dva’s self destruct and instant remech etc

I think the “no magic” rule is more so meant to mean they will never have a character that in lore just pulls things out of their ass and they explain it as being magic, not necessarily related to what they can and can’t do in game

[crisp canyon]

They should just say Magic exists tbh idec anymore

It’s not Jeff’s vision it’s Aaron’s vision now

[glad fox]

What's the lore explanation for suzu and ofudas

Or mizukis aura

[boreal oxide]

japan

[civic lynx]

I’m not entirely sure if those things exist in lore (especially mizuki’s heal aura)

[wispy star]

Tracer means alot me. Shes my Superman

shes so kind and loving.

[civic lynx]

Nvm Kiri’s ones do

[wispy star]

I LOVE Tracer

i anyone else to talk about her?

[quick folio]

ive been maining tracer since i was 8 lol

Guys i want to learn the full lore

How and where do i start

[wispy star]

omg thank you

i want us to be like like Arcane

[meager geyser]

The problem is not the existence of magic, but how blizzard is constantly denying it as well as people who believe them that Kirko and Mizuki don't use magic and are trying to do some mind gymnastics just to explain something that is clearly magic.
I don't think many people would be mad if they confirmed magic, but they have to do it.

[meager geyser]

She has a cinematic story video

[quick folio]

Nono not js tracer like i want the WHOLE lore

[wispy star]

is this a safe space to yearn for the "Zero hour" cinematic

[meager geyser]

Idk, some lore breakdown videos?

[wispy star]

i reallly want Tracer and Winston to be best friends again

[brittle sky]

I mean, I would be, since it represents giving up on the conceit of the setting to do some orientalism, all while imagining shinto not as a real world and complex religion with some bad implications if it's literally, actionable real but just quirky folk beliefs.

And given they're going out of their way to address mizuki and kiriko as fuelled by technology, I think just declaring it magic would be giving up.

[brittle sky]

There's no evidence they aren't?

[wispy star]

i meant as leaders. like Batman and Wonder woman

[crisp canyon]

Is there lore about why Kirikos voice got deeper this season

[brittle sky]

I mean given Winston is outright going behind sojourn's back to recruit children, I'm not sure he's leadership ready

[crisp canyon]

Ah hell nah Winston grooming

[wise grotto]

They never were the two leaders

[wise grotto]

“Children” wuyang and anran are the specific two I think children’s the wrong word

[crisp canyon]

Isn’t Anran like 25

And Wuyang is 19

[digital linden]

anran is 22

[dawn topaz]

spiritually minors

[quick folio]

i just found out they are siblings omds

[brittle sky]

Not a great look to hire college students into your currently illegal paramilitary.

[dawn topaz]

what??? What's next, Genji and Hanzo are brothers, too?

[quick folio]

no hanzo is his father

duh

[shrewd pivot]

Overwatch is superhero scifi, aka Captain America science fiction that seems like magical powers of superstrength, but isn't.

Overwatch confirming magic would destroy the point of scifi worldbuilding. If say, spirits can exist, omnic lore of a scifi rhetorical question of "do omnics have souls?" Is pointless.

If souls or chi or mana is proven real, that would mean specific faith systems would be "false". Athiest (Reaper), Catholic Christian (Soldier76), and Shinto (Kiriko) all have equal merit in lore and world building BECAUSE "one true religion" is never answered.

Also, Overwatch would just become magepunk if magic was proven true.

The fact Anima Avatar Weapons incorperate Japanese folklore story telling styles is really cool because it celebrates that genre without delegitamizing non Shinto-based story telling in lore.

Symmetra's Hindu kathak dances, Wuyang's Daoist practices, Reinhardt being a godfather to Brigitte with Christian knight tales of adventures, etc can all coexist with equal merit BECAUSE true magic is not canon in overwatch.

[hushed shard]

with all the tech and science in overwatch, such as moira being able to fade, reapers near immortality, sombras cybernetics, do you think its possible to go from a human body into an omnic one

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed, tho tbf Anran was trained for combat, the Fire college specifically trains in martial arts.

[shrewd pivot]

Transhumanism? Probably. Like, if say Sojourn slowly replaced all of her human organics with prosthesis, yes it's possible for a human to go from fully organic to fully robotic.

Omnic is a brand of robot.

If you are asking if an organic human can become an "awakened omnic", no, because the awakening was a one time deal

[meager geyser]

I just don't buy the "Anima Avatar Weapons" || (whatever tf that means) ||. They don't resemble tech at all.

[shrewd pivot]

If hardlight, and biolight, and inti warrior solar threading, and gravity tech(based on psionics and sacred geometry mysticism tropes), and Tracer's time accident can exist, hologram looking energy tech (Anima avatar technology could mean like Jung psychology "Anima/Animus" architypes like trickster god architypes, mother goddess architypes.... Kitsune architypes, Kappa architypes. Aka a "Persona" videogame reference) makes sense for the setting.

Overwatch is based on media references and homages, pulp fiction, and "fantasy class but scifi"

Genji is a Metal Gear Solid Raiden and Grey Fox ref for example

[meager geyser]

Idk, it all just feels like suspension of disbelief for me

[shrewd pivot]

And Sigma or Tracer isn't?

[meager geyser]

"No dude. Kiriko doesn't use magic! She uses Anima Avatar Weapons. How do they work? Where did she get them from? It's not important! It's all technology, bro!"

[meager geyser]

Yeah, you're right, but they always at least fit the theme for me

[shrewd pivot]

"No dude. Sigma doesn't use magic! Sigma had a gravity experiment accident! How does it work? Where did he get the psionic powers from? It's not important! It's all technology, bro!" i don't mean this rudely, just an example haha, all in good mirth

[shrewd pivot]

I agree. How come Brigitte can be a Holy Paladin without being a nun knight using holy water and calling upon a hologram of Saint Peter to use heavenly light to smite enemies, but Kiriko is basically the Shinto version of that?

[peak escarp]

it's so weird that some people will only believe certain unbelievable tech but not others

[shrewd pivot]

Like, i do LIKE the fact Kiriko combines old with new, but it's so /direct/ that it feels a bit off when Brigitte is romping around

[hushed shard]

closer to what i meant would be like (just an example), do you think itd be possible for a human to basically upload their consciousness into an omnic body, even transfer their brain into one, kenjaku style

[peak escarp]

probably not

[peak escarp]

Brigitte isn't really a holy paladin... what's holy about her?

[shrewd pivot]

Brigitte is extremely close to the WoW class Holy Paladin

[peak escarp]

I'd say she's more like the D&D Paladin type, which doesn't have to pledge to a divine source but can instead uphold an ideal

[shrewd pivot]

Closest would be "SOMA" videogame horror where it's a copy of a human, think like Ana wargod mythic skin lore.

[hushed shard]

i was just thinking it from how well the cybernetics in ow work, sombra just thinks about hacking and its started, soj just moves like a human, thought thered be some whacko out there crazy enough to try and move body, especiallysince moira is on the verge of death and as broken human limits, and reaper being near immortal

[shrewd pivot]

I didn't see a specific Paladin class in DnD that fit as close as WoW holy paladin did.

Brigitte's ult and aura healing etc. is very close to WoW's take on it. Brigitte's just uses light tech that looks like divine light, rather than actually believing she is calling upon divinity.

Meanwhile, Kiriko is a Shinto Shrine Maiden and believes in the fox spirit.

Brigitte does not believe she is calling on God's light to smite people haha

[peak escarp]

so then she's not a holy paladin

[shrewd pivot]

Brigitte is "WoW Holy Paladin, but scifi" like Ramattra is "DnD Monk: Way of the Astral self, but scifi"

No different than calling Lúcio a bard. He's not litterally a bard, he is a scifi take on a bard

[peak escarp]

you can just say Brigitte is a paladin then, no need to add the holy

[meager geyser]

That feels like looking for parallels where there are none

[peak escarp]

she's not based on the specific WoW class, she's based on the general concept of paladins, like Lucio is a general bard

I don't think Ramattra is based on that one specific Monk archetype either

the devs have compared him to a shepherd or Moses type

[shrewd pivot]

The specific class in WoW is called "Holy paladin" because there are two other options for Paladin, Retribution Paladin and Protection Paladin.

Just like Ramattra is not simple a DnD Monk class, he is specifically similar to "DnD Monk: Way of the Astral self" class

[brittle sky]

Holy is a subclass of paladin in wow

It's the support one.

[peak escarp]

the concept of a paladin exists outside of WoW

[shrewd pivot]

@Toxin @doctor

https://dnd5e.wikidot.com/monk:astral-self

Ramattra's kit is exceptionally similar to this concept

[peak escarp]

doesn't mean he was based on it

[brittle sky]

I think paladin is by this point a decently broad concept in media, but it isn't a stretch to say brig may have drawn inspiration from the play style and role of another blizzard property's take on a support paladin in specific implementation, even if all her powers are meant to be tech and metaphoric, not metaphysical.

I think ram being specifically astral self seems a bit looser/weaker personally, even if both play with ideas of manifesting the self outside self because both are descended from wuxia derivations of Buddhist practices.

[shrewd pivot]

While I respect your understanding of lore as "explicit only"

For inference based lore, reasonable association I might add:
It is unlikely they used DnD classes to inspire Lúcio (bard) to then come up with:
a monk architype that fits the Astral self being worn as armor similar to Nemesis form being a limited time ability, and the fact Ramattra specifically states in the Reconciliation comic that he views the body as a shell for the mind, without EVER reading about DnD: Way of the Astral Self".

Like im sorry, they confirmed characters use DnD fantasy classes as inspo.

It's not unreasonable to call Brigitte a "WoW 'Holy Paladin' class" if Lúcio is a "DnD 'bard'"

Holy Paladin out of context is confusing wording though, so pardon for my poor wording.

[peak escarp]

I dislike the comparison because it sounds like you're accusing them of ripping off a concept

concepts that are not unique to WoW or D&D

it's as bad as when people say "X OW hero is Y Marvel Rivals character"

[shrewd pivot]

??? It's how characters in overwatch are made, it's homage. Winston references planet of the apes, Genji is a "ripoff" of Raiden and Grey Fox, and that's not a bad thing, overwatch riffs on various media in creative ways. That's not a bad thing.

[peak escarp]

I know it's how characters are made

but your phrasing makes it sound accusatory

[shrewd pivot]

I agree. It's not one to one, never is.

[brittle sky]

Could you point to where you found the language accusatory, dismissive, or reductive?

[peak escarp]

wrong word

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, my accusation was that it's odd they made Kiriko such a direct religion reference while keeping Brigitte vague.

It's a known bias in superhero writing to let western countries have vague powers but then places like Japan has full on religious looking powers.

[peak escarp]

if OW heroes are not one to one with Marvel characters, then they're also not one to one with WoW or D&D classes

[shrewd pivot]

Yes, but there's inspiration. That's my point, they are based on something.

Winston's hero identity is based on planet of the apes for example

[meager geyser]

That's true. You can easily see inspirations, but that doesn't make them ripp offs.
The only exception for me is Black Widow, because there is no reason a spy known for seeking and close range combat would have a sniper rifle outside of overwatch

[shrewd pivot]

It's not a negative to be inspired, I adore overwatch for how it creatively homages media!

[shrewd pivot]

Overwatch 1 og Torbjörn was a "rip off" or "based off" of tf2 engineer mechanics

Videogames inspire eachother, it's not a bad thing, that's how genres are created.

[meager geyser]

Blizzard devs are getting inspiration from lots of different sources
Doesn't mean that Brigitte is a 1:1 holy paladin and she uses holy water to heal

[brittle sky]

That was exactly ultra's point

[shrewd pivot]

Exactly my point

Why is it that Brigitte gets to have that design philosophy but not Kiriko?

That's my point lol

[meager geyser]

Because for me Kirko is a symbol of everything wrong with blizzard

I don't like her

I'm petty

[shrewd pivot]

Kiriko falls into biased writing, as seen in other superhero media where for some reason Japanese heroes have "religious magical" looking powers while other heroes get to have more vague powers

And it's not that I MIND Kiriko being a combination of traditional with new age, that's cool! But it could have had the same design philosophy of Brigitte: more vague

Kiriko’s ofuda and suzu are akin to a Christian nun having in her kit holy water and a cross to scare vampires away lol

[dry pebble]

As we at it

Is there any D&D Archetype we can fit Moira in as Mercy

As i'm arleady aware she isn't based after any but i just wanted us to make some assumption

[brittle sky]

I mean Moira make some allusions to witchiness in the queen Maeve model, mercy is a holy angel so you could say cleric or other classes that more directly embody divinity

[shrewd pivot]

It's more vague for those two. Closest I found is WoW Priests, which has two subsets: one Light, one Shadow(cosmic horrory)

Moira has a mad scientist/alchemist trope

Mercy has a Valkerie and Guardian angel trope as well as staff using magics deal

[dry pebble]

Pretty fond of OW creating sci fi characters after D&D archetypes, keeps it unique

[meager geyser]

That's what I mean

It would be way better if they left Kirko vague, but instead the first line of her reveal story animation is:
"My family was always close to the fox SPIRIT and my grandma taught me the ANCIENT way of healing." without explaining it whatsoever.

You can only make one first impression

[brittle sky]

I think the trick is western stuff very comfortably fused sci Fi tech with their anachronisms (cyber knight, cyber angel, cyber paladin) and made the mechanism clearly technological. That's clearly less obvious with the shimada ecology.

[dry pebble]

But i'm happy they don't tend to stick into that in every Hero they release

[shrewd pivot]

I am fond of it too! It's cool to see how they spin "fantasy class" into scifi

[dry pebble]

Yeah, and some of them doesn't even seem to like they forcing theirself to present archetype

Like Lucio and Symmetra is way too distinct looking for the general archetypes they are based off (Bard and Wizard)

Learning Sym supposed to be a Sci fi Wizard was something funny to find about character

[shrewd pivot]

I think it depends. I like cinema references (Winston, Cassidy) and I like fantasy class riffs (Lucio, Ramattra) and but I dislike too vague tropes like Freja because her design isn't really... in line with overwatch's visual design philosophy. Hazard too, should have been pushed more to showcase body modder cyberpunk tropes

[dry pebble]

I definetly agree about Freja and Hazard

Like whenever i look into Freja i find her not fitting with the cast

Same applies to Hazard

[brittle sky]

I mean ow2 era cast in general is more compromised by a need to make marketable appearance and a flexible base for skins and collabs.

[dry pebble]

Emre too actually

[dry pebble]

Checked by American patriots

I'm not fully blaming them, but in this update forward the hero quality won't be that stable as it used to be

They arleady pushed themself to releasing complete 10 heroes

[shrewd pivot]

Lúcio is a DJ, and has general Bard AoE, closest is like Glamour Bard

Symmetra fits pretty well with DnD Conjugation Wizard tbf

[dry pebble]

No i meant about their look

[shrewd pivot]

Ohhhh yeah yeah I agree

[dry pebble]

For their kit its obvious

[shrewd pivot]

Symmetra's design was inspired by Portal weaponry

[dry pebble]

I also like when Overwatch pulls out Sci fi archetypes from different popular media

Like Winston is an obvious Planet of the Apes reference

Fuck this actually saddens me more how much miss Emre's character is

It could've been a Terminator inspired character whom God AI stole his body

[brittle sky]

We'll see. While I have complaints about the latest 5, I don't think they're a real drop in quality from the 3 a year, and my complaints are more playing it safe or playing it marketable over interesting or expressive, just a applicable to previous stuff as now

[peak escarp]

half of the first 5 were already known/expected characters

but there only seems to be 1 known character in the next 5

which has me interested

I've wanted a Hashimoto hero since they were introduced

[meager geyser]

They want to be as good as Rivals, when in reality the only people who care about the amount of heroes are those jobless guys that don't actually play any games, but hate on them on Twitter

You know, those guys who call every GOTY winner slop and every new shooter "Concord [number here]"

[dry pebble]

Funny enough Rivals is unbalanced as fuck

Even Rivals players giving thumbs down to it in Steam so idk what you on about

That's literally any other Pvp game who relies over releasing more and more heroes as possible

[meager geyser]

Did Marvel Rivals release 10+ heroes in a year?
Yes
Were all of them super unique and well designed?
Hell no!

[dry pebble]

Any other game releasing that amount of heroes in one year im talking about in one update

[meager geyser]

Ik
I stopped playing in season 1 and couldn't get back to it throughout the year, no matter how many times I tried.
It's just not fun to play, which is sad because I love Marvel and I love hero shooters so this game should be perfect for me, but I just can't stand it

[meager geyser]

Marvel Rivals always felt kinda sloppy to me. I can't explain it but it feels like one of those cheap, P2W, gatcha, mobile games.

[brittle sky]

Execution does in fact matter. There are some talented artists there and they clearly have plenty of backing and energy, but they seem like in their imitation of other hero shooters including ow they failed to grasp some fundamentals that made those work.

Visual clarity, audio cues, general readability.

[meager geyser]

HAVY on visual clarity
Marvel Rivals graphics are beautiful and would be perfect for a tv show or something, but it doesn't work for a hero shooter

[peak escarp]

people complain about OW's visual clarity, is MR worse?

[meager geyser]

It's like heaven and hell

[hushed shard]

absoulutely, i peaked gm 3 season in a row and once people start getting into a fight its just colour after colour after colour

barely know whats happening

[meager geyser]

Once there are two ults at the same time in MR you can't do anything except for smashing random buttons and hope you hit something

[hushed shard]

you have to rely on audio ques once that happens, really lock in and hear whats happening in the cluster of noise

[brittle sky]

Very much about just making each sfx look cool, not that it has minimal clutter or clearly articulates what it does and whether you should be concerned.

[brittle sky]

Just so long as you aren't critical health so they mute those

[meager geyser]

The fact that there are so many charters and skins that look almost identical is also not helping

[shrewd pivot]

Emre seems to have a "Bucky Barnes Winter soldier" kind of vibe to his character situation

[tawny rover]

since anran and wuyang are from fire and water college will there be a metal college student?

[shrewd pivot]

Content creators can monetize "guides to this new hero!" Which in of itself is advertising for overwatch

We don't need 6 heroes a year in 2027+ imo. 4 heroes would have been fine imo

[peak escarp]

one of the scientists of the Mars colony was a Metal college graduate

Juno mentions them

[tawny rover]

i mean like a playable character tho

[peak escarp]

probably not

[meager geyser]

On the side: I hope so

On the other side: I don't think I want 4 Chinese character

[tawny rover]

they don’t have to be chinese they can be a transfer student or something

[peak escarp]

not unless Wuxing University suddenly becomes more plot relevant

[shrewd pivot]

Ming is metal college as well, helped Wuyang make his staff

[brittle sky]

I hope we don't just keep going to the same well on all the characters, especially ones with nothing meaningful to say about the setting and no lore ties other than "can join overwatch or talon"

[tawny rover]

maybe like a omnic

[brittle sky]

Do we have evidence they even let omnics in?

[shrewd pivot]

5 elements in wuxing, that would be 5 Wuxing students + Mei + Juno (Singaporean Chinese)

[tawny rover]

idek but that kinda idea would be nice

also that’s a easy tank hero too

[meager geyser]

My hot take:
We don't need new heroes at all. The current roster is absolutely enough. Everyone can find something for themselves and with every new hero it'll be harder for new/returning players to adjust.
What we do need is more new (not stadium) maps.

[hushed shard]

wrong chat lol

[meager geyser]

XD

No, it's a very important lore mystery fr

[edgy meadow]

a lot of people say they want new maps then refuse to play on the new maps

they know (correctly) that new maps dont bring as much attention as new characters

so theyre smartly reallocating resources into the content that keeps people engaged

they also said theyre gonna do map reworks regardless which is a good compromise to avoid staleness

[tawny rover]

istg i’ve wanted to play that aatlis map or something like that whatever it’s called and i still Hvent been able to

[edgy meadow]

ye because refuse to try it with a burning passion

its unfortunate

but that kind of feedback is exactly why theyre dialing back on new maps

and its like

genuinely a really good map imo

aatlis is great

people just hate new things

[shrewd pivot]

I agree with you.

That said, Aatlis was not a quality map according to pro players and even lower ranked players. It's not because it was new, but because it was not as well designed to play on as other maps.

[meager geyser]

Altis is the only good flashpoint map

I always vote it

[edgy meadow]

im curious when did pro players give feedback on the map

genuinely, i have not seen that sentiment before

[shrewd pivot]

Ig i should say... people who HAVE played pro. Many streamers that have played pro explained there are too many entry points with the hallways, meaning a tracer will usually always have true advantage, very hard to defend points

Pardon my wording

[edgy meadow]

youre good

id still be curious who said that and when but im not expecting you go through the hassle if you dont want to

regardless that is a surprise

[brittle sky]

Drifting further into gameplay talk folks

[tawny rover]

mm lore lore lore mm

[edgy meadow]

not my fault this is the only good channel in the entire server

https://tenor.com/view/black-cat-cat-banana-hungry-void-cat-gif-16626119171143575104

but ill concede...

[crisp canyon]

Never back down never what

[meager geyser]

I like chatting here about anything off topic.
The rest of the server is just a spam flood.

[tawny rover]

lore wise yall think there’s gonna be a storyline soon on the infiltration or attack on vishkar

[brittle sky]

Generally from the lore side the cast is too lopsided to tell a story. Especially if talon is set to get busted and/or splinter. Just ain't enough of a rogue's gallery

[crisp canyon]

They’ll tell u take it general and it’s 8 ppl all calling each other pet names and trying to be as weird as possible to each other

[meager geyser]

You don't need every character to be a playable hero

For example I don't want Maximilian to be playable

He works perfectly fine as he already does

[crisp canyon]

It can be a little fun to mess around but act having off topic convo isn’t possible

[brittle sky]

I think we have the pieces with domnina being a more embodied part of vishkar's corporate or corrupt side, so the pieces are there for sym to either break from vishkar or (I think more interestingly) fighting for its soul. That said we don't have much evidence yet other than a mention of domina an sym making a rio trip soon.

[tawny rover]

also i need a map in swiss or wherever brig and torb are from

[brittle sky]

Not every character should be, 100%. But being playable is the easiest way for people to care about a character. We hear interactions and barks, they express in animation, and it make people curious to learn more. The most common thing people arriving here looking for more lore ask about is about characters. So an antagonist embodied in a playable character is going to be far more effective than a face we at most see in comics and side media some won't even see.

[meager geyser]

Fr, Gottenberg should be playable in PVP

[brittle sky]

Sweden. Gottenburg was in the works but its game mode (assault) got sundowned

[meager geyser]

They should remake it to hybrid or something

[crisp canyon]

True

[brittle sky]

Maybe it will. The pve map made it clear they had lots of assets ready. Though I'll continue to grumble at the outsized presence of northern and western Europe in the canon.

[crisp canyon]

Just bring 2 cap back, if we have to suffer with the other modes we can handle it existing from time to time

[meager geyser]

You know what map I miss?

Paris

Was it pain to play on?

Yes

Was it beautiful?

YES

[crisp canyon]

I miss volskaya

[brittle sky]

Hanamura, volskaya, Paris, hlc... Was there any other assault?

[crisp canyon]

Anubis

[meager geyser]

Anubis

[brittle sky]

Ah yeah the og temple

A real fun medley of lore locations.

[crisp canyon]

I think clash should also be in rotation 2 idc if there’s never a new map added for the mode but i I think it’s ridiculous to just have maps sitting around collecting dust just because they aren’t everyone’s preferred

There’s map voting for a reason now

[edgy meadow]

removing the maps that are critically hated is exactly the point of map voting

[brittle sky]

The hate of capture point play feels to me an artifact of the outsized role of pros.

[edgy meadow]

they have all the interest in the world to cut, change or remove highly hated maps to maximize players' engagement with the maps they like

theres a part of the playerbase that really really like push and flashpoint and hates payload maps, and a part thats the opposite

[crisp canyon]

Now arriving at kings row for the 10 billionth time

[edgy meadow]

im also burned out on king's row but people evidently like it

[civic lynx]

So called freethinkers when Kings row and/or eichenwalde are options

[edgy meadow]

it doesnt make sense for the devs to shove down maps that they know empirically are hated to overshadow maps that they know people like

[crisp canyon]

Kings row is peak but I’m sick of seeing it, I would love to hit Hanamura at least once in a day rather than play a pool of what like 15 of the same options everyday

[brittle sky]

Then you become the one vote for njc and win on the raffle to the dismay of everyone else.

[civic lynx]

I always vote for suravasa if it’s there, I don’t like the other 2 flashpoint maps

[crisp canyon]

I hate push and escort but I don’t mind flashpoint

I think push is probably the least competitive mode they’ve ever come up with

[brittle sky]

Push is my least favorite shape of play, and likely doesn't help its maps are generally pretty inert on lore.

[crisp canyon]

Push map diversity being where the hill is placed

[peak escarp]

Esperanca introduced the Collective and the Atlantic Arcology... but that's about it

[civic lynx]

Isn’t there some thing with like the wall in the background of Esperanca being made to combat climate change/rising sea levels but it’s never really been acknowledged

[crisp canyon]

“What if they played tug of war for ten min” that’s basically push

[brittle sky]

Most seem to be a city that they're just reveling in a pretty city with a throwaway line to one thing in the world (colosseo being a second robot gladiator fight pit, Esperanza and the collective, rusanapi and the inti), but their connection and role in the world of ow feel like almost an after thought.

[peak escarp]

yeah

[shrewd pivot]

P much, the lore was addressed in Overwatch Declassified

[crisp canyon]

Is there any Illios at all

Lore

[meager geyser]

I hate that defenders have only two spawns and there isn't a shortcut that lets them skip the third phase like on road 66

[crisp canyon]

Numbani second spawn being in another country

[brittle sky]

Kinda a tie to talon's interest in artifacts but by and large an early example of "pretty city first, overwatch location second"

[meager geyser]

Eichenwalde is a good design map to play on, but man, is this map ugly. This isn't something important for competitive play, but it makes an impact for me. Like ik that Circuit Royal is kinda bad (especially the second section), but I still like to play on it, because it's pretty

[crisp canyon]

One of my least favorite designs in the game is when a point has an object just to have an object in the center, like well in Illios I understand but drum in Busan is just stupid

[crisp canyon]

I think eichen is pretty

[brittle sky]

I mean it was designed for gameplay first

[civic lynx]

Eichenwalde is very… green

[meager geyser]

And gray

[civic lynx]

True

I like the castle section tho even if it is just grey and brown

[crisp canyon]

She’s very gorgeous to me 😔

Parisio is very green

[meager geyser]

Eichenwalde is also all destroyed. I get why it's destroyed and abounded, but it just doesn't vibe with me

[crisp canyon]

I guess I feel that way ab junkertown it’s so yellow and gross

[civic lynx]

Real

[brittle sky]

Does that mean new Gibraltar doesn't vibe with you?

[meager geyser]

Gibraltar never vibed with me

It was always kinda... Boring...

[crisp canyon]

New junk city at least has some distinct color

[brittle sky]

But does it being ruined and abandoned make it vibe with you less?

[civic lynx]

I do wish we had more than just 1 image of the original idea for a Germany map/eichenwalde since although it looks incredibly green it could’ve been interesting

[crisp canyon]

Blizzard hear my prayers and make Tokyo a hybrid map

[civic lynx]

Tokyo based on the one image they keep reusing is push, hybrid or payload imo

That image just has to be a place for a payload or bot to be going through

[crisp canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/jerry-beg-begging-jerry-begging-jerry-begs-gif-2276061705331276893

Pls no push

I want hybrid and control for Iceland

[civic lynx]

I think Iceland is control or maybe flashpoint

[crisp canyon]

I wouldn’t mind flashpoint just anything but another push map

[civic lynx]

I think the map is a prison in lore so I doubt it’s push 😭

[crisp canyon]

Now arriving at cell blocks 🤩

[civic lynx]

😭

[meager geyser]

That one image they used definitely suggest flashpoint

It also reminds me of Lijang Tower

[tawny rover]

since vishkar is more part of the story will there be a vishkar support

[crisp canyon]

I feel like it’s hybrid for Japan and control for Iceland and flashpoint for Atlantis arco

[civic lynx]

It’s not impossible but this year doesn’t seem to have one

[past copper]

Pretty good fanart for this collab, but I have qualms about 2 of them

I can see why some would say Genji as Robin, but I still think Wuyang makes more sense

Because his weapon is literally a bo staff

Next. While I respect the Jetpack Cat for Beast Boy... I think we can all agree Winston makes more sense since gorilla his Beastie's primary animal choice

[meager geyser]

Beats Boy should be Winston and Raven should be Moira

I'd be also nice to see Terra as Venture

[dry pebble]

Actually quite fucked up to imagine such a highly populated capital city being left to desolate in near future

[civic lynx]

I do wonder what the lore explanation for such a major city to be abandoned and left to rot would’ve been

[dry pebble]

Most likely due to crisis but any other reason also would be interesting

[civic lynx]

Whatever’s going on back here looks like more futuristic buildings similar to what we see in game today so I wonder if that was also abandoned or if for whatever reason the historic part of the city was left to be forgotten and everyone moved

[brittle sky]

I mean lw kinda

[dry pebble]

I do like to think Berlin was one of those cities that were sheltering most of omniums and shit compared to other cities in world