lore-discussion

[shadow mica]

off

[shrewd pivot]

Joking aside, it's more like... big statement by Vendetta to take out Overwatch HQ to make Overwatch look inadequate on the world stage, but also, very scary implications that Talon has a space launch facility under thier control atm.

[shadow mica]

Guess pharah got her hair dyed for some reason then

[shadow mica]

fair to argue that the space launch facility is definitely not serviceable anymore if you look at the updated gibraltar map

[brittle sky]

carefully fails to mention she inflicted 0% casualties

[shadow mica]

Fika is missing in the after mission part of the new comic

huge

[brittle sky]

So are bast and mercy, but until we get proof positive of their dead bodies bumdetta arc remains.

[shrewd pivot]

True, but there's still like. A denial to overwatch for that space launch tech then.

And there's maybe left over tech that is a huge loss that Talon can recoup.

I presume Athena was able to lock down all important info before Winston took Athena with him....?

[shrewd pivot]

😭 bumdetta im laughing

[shadow mica]

is bast really in ow

[brittle sky]

Yeah he joined on the ironclad mission

[shadow mica]

fair enough

[shrewd pivot]

Lmafo yeah. Though I think Vendetta has a voiceline with Reaper that suggests she enjoys 'playing with her prey' so to speak? Obviously heroes won't be killed unceremoniously in a comic, but i think taking overwatch HQ is a big enough hit. I'm just suprised Talon actually was able to secure the area.

Echo and Genji should have been fine working together, Echo especially...? I don't get why Anran rushed in to save hardlight mimic and Cyborg ninja guy. Saving a different hero that was nonaugmented would have made more sense...? Idk who could be on base but even Anran saving Winston makes more sense imo bc Winston would be in trouble if too many bullets hit him. For Genji, Genji can parry and escape atleast and Echo should be able to maintain position with Genji.

[shadow mica]

was gonna say he might be just in ironclad but I didn't play pve

still curious what is going to happen to Illari in the lore

[patent moth]

hes officially joined overwatch

the post pve cinematic makes reference to that fact, and ingame dialogue references it as well

that, and his updated character bio on the website says so directly

[shrewd pivot]

I'm wondering what the world stage will think of this defeat against overwatch. It's a humiliation and paints overwatch as a dangerous thing to have "on standby" bc Overwatch can be targeted and defeated, now that Talon controls Gibraltar

[brittle sky]

I mean 'playing with her prey' seems virtually identical to the time she sent like 2 goons to try to knock over talon for her when doom got arrested.

[edgy meadow]

oh hey so she gets a full comic

[shrewd pivot]

I would hope they moved away from that kind of writing, since "Vengeance Comes" had her writen with show don't tell competence

[brittle sky]

ehhhh that was still mostly telling, just less abstracted

[shrewd pivot]

Yeye! As much as it's nice to see, a text story would have been nice too... i want little details seen in those text stories (I am greedy for lore)

[shrewd pivot]

Fair, but it seemed a nudge in the right direction. No plot armor in that comic, set up interesting strategies for later payoff, etc. Vendetta having a big meeting moment with a dramatic reveal at the end made SENSE atleast

Like, Vendetta SHOULD be a villain you love to watch scheming, that's her kind of character trope.

I noticed Anran has bandages on her legs in comic. Should have been in base design imo, I still can't take her bare legs design seriously lol

[left granite]

Saw the new comic/lore drop in the game and ||Where's Bastion?||

[shrewd pivot]

||Jetpack Cat, Bastion, Mercy|| were not shown in the comic. I don't know where ||Bastion might be||. Maybe someone else knows and can answer?

[uneven apex]

Hello, we are looking for a coach to help train our team for an upcoming tournament. Overwatch2

[lone atlas]

you should go check #old-coach-list or #1429233023919984780

[mighty vigil]

jetpack cat found dead in gibraltar with 17 gunshot wounds

[shrewd pivot]

9 lives!... er, 8 lives!

[left granite]

I assume they might all be onboard as they can't draw that many people on the ship.

[shrewd pivot]

Could have done a panel showing them tbf since they showed Ana, but that's possible

[idle flame]

lfd anything +18

[edgy meadow]

i think they just got lazy lowk

thats just the vibe im getting

if something happened to these 3 theyd day something but maybe im wrong and we'll get more info soon

as for something else interesting to talk about

the cat has a new minor perk in game called "Ulterior Motive"

https://tenor.com/view/baby-corn-cat-kitty-kitten-car-gif-5001398765930812235

it just gives the cat more fuel for healing allies but

feels very deliberate

[shrewd pivot]

Bastion ought to be with Brigitte or Torbjörn or at Overwatch HQ? Or Bastion could be heavily damaged and is being repaired.

Mercy could be anywhere tbf

JPC was probably at base when Talon attacked...? Or was with Brigitte...?

And yeah it will be very funny if JPC ends up being like... a spy, or something really unexpected haha

I think the funniest outcome would be an intelligent Fika pretending to just be a regular cat bc Fika likes the pampered life Brigitte provides lmafo (housing, food, water, compliments and catnip pfft)

Oh. It's just an error

JPC, Mercy, and Bastion were meant to be in this comic

Not the fault of the artist imo, people forget things, it's the backcheckers that messed up. The backcheckers missed it and should have addressed it.

[shrewd pivot]

also wait... are the New Era skins not canon? Shouldn't Overwatch agents be wearing those outfits like Sojourn and Genji and Tracer? Or will that happen later

[brittle sky]

Vendetta is going to show up, give tracer an itty bitty face cut, then rip off genji's jaw.

[shrewd pivot]

Unless Genji gets beaten to a pulp, I imagine the jaw upgrade must have happened prior to the New Era, and we're just seeing what's underneath his ow2 mask for once...?

[edgy meadow]

were they ever said to be canon

[shrewd pivot]

I mean... I would assume they are canon? Why make themed skins for your own lore and it not be canon...?

I dislike the Moira skin so hey if it ends up not being canon that's a W by me but yeah.

[digital linden]

probably been mentioned but i had no idea ana joined new overwatch omgg

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah! Ana was last seen in in the xmas comic iirc, presumably she stuck around...?

[cunning copper]

-doomfist gets defeated in every significant battle he fights in against overwatch despite being portrayed as strong and being the leader of the faction that directly opposes overwatch
-ramattra has his uprising crushed by a disorganised, illegal overwatch and his story arc is pushed out of the picture, sojourn asks : "null sector had a foothold in so many cities. why withdraw your forces now?" insinuating a soft defeat for null sector and Ramattras temporary retirement from operations

why is every well written, cold and calculated villain in overwatch just a punching bag for the good guys?

[shrewd pivot]

PVE was canned, so the plotlines got shoved under the rug it seems

Doomfist will def return imo, and atleast Ramattra is a "set aside" rather than fully written off

[cunning copper]

this is moreso my complaint and frustration of how villains are treated in overwatch

[shrewd pivot]

I agree! Doomfist and Ramattra deserved better plotlines imo

And Doomfist did beat Tracer and Genji tbf

I am just kinda saddened of how it all went down

but hopefully his return will pick up the pace in quality of writing

[brittle sky]

I mean arguably you can see ramattra as fully winning. He got like 90% of what he wanted. All overwatch accomplished as stop him from getting ot omnics in certain cities.

like... it's not really a 'win' that ram left those cities, Ram just wasn't interested in conquest or elimination.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah. I feel like the PVE would have delved into that aspect more, but eh. Atleast things are moving along. Sucks that it was handled how it was tho (rushed)

I personally am interested in seeing Mauga and Junkers bc it will probably be some fun interactions
I am also interested in seeing how Mizuki lore plays out long term

[edgy meadow]

its just Overwatch Rush not ow3

[pastel stirrup]

i wish vendetta was more enigmatic in retrospect if we're going with the same plotline
like ofc i wish the choreography and such in the short was better and doom actually fought how you'd expect him to, but like imagine if her beating doom is the very first thing we see her do
and she actually keeps her helmet on, doesn't say anything and we get the reveal at the end

[shrewd pivot]

Probably won't be all that canon-adjacent, and the game seems to be selling buyable lootboxes towards a Teen audience, which is p much teen gambling on mobile, which is scummy imo. I recommend playing it f2p if you do play. Seems like it might be similar to a pokemon unite experience?

[pastel stirrup]

i think it would've been somewhat better received this way

[shrewd pivot]

yeah the IDEA of Vendetta isn't bad per se (minus her negative cultural stereotypes), the idea of this Caesar Star wars style villain could have been really engaging, it's just not implemented very well imo

[half pike]

Still developed by blizzard

[shrewd pivot]

oh for sure, i just mean the gameplay seems to be: if you enjoy pokemon unite, you might enjoy overwatch rush

[half pike]

It looks more like the Diablo games’ gameplay style than pokemon unite tbh

[shrewd pivot]

ah ok. i was looking at the controls and ui set up mostly. I haven't played Diablo mobile so I'll take your word for it

[half pike]

Anyways, free to play style will always be my recommendation. I wouldn’t spend money on games that can get deleted without notice.

rest in peace, Nier3:Reincarnation

2021—2024

[half pike]

Valve’s Mindset 101 😉

[round bramble]

SO does Anran feel remorse for litteraly burnning people alive?

I get Talon are the bad guys but that's still very messed up

[civic lynx]

Why has the old lead writer just randomly given a fun fact about tracer 😭

[latent lark]

alot of people are confused thinking Ana joined overwatch when in reality it seems she just showed up as reinforcements

[shrewd pivot]

this has been known for a while about Tracer's pistols! It was a really neat detail in her ow1 design :)
The reaper comment is a joke, obviously

[crisp canyon]

Didn’t everyone know that’s how tracer reloads

[civic lynx]

I didnt 😭

I assumed the spinning bit that comes out of the sides when she’s reloading was creating bullets

[pastel stirrup]

idk how ppl only find this stuff out now
we literally see her do it in the museum cinematic, she does it in several emotes

[shrewd pivot]

if people don't watch the cinematics often, or if they are new players, it's an easy detail to miss :)

[spare fox]

why is everyone saying that OW is going to Antarctica for their new base?

like... why would they they couldn't get there for 9 years because of a friggin storm, it's not going to be the new watchpoint

[broken eagle]

To be honest im curious about where they colud go

[spare fox]

I used to think the Arcology but now I'm not so sure about that... maybe one of the other watchpoints

[broken eagle]

The one of watchpoints is most realistic options

[shrewd pivot]

i think people are assuming the Antarctic map rework is hinting that?

I don't see it either spooky, i don't think overwatch will reside at the Antarctic base.

And Jason, yeah it does make sense a watchpoint could be a base but not ecopoint Antartic imo

[civic lynx]

From the theories I’ve seen it’s bc vendetta is very unlikely to know it exists since it’s been unused for years (probably decades at this point) and she wouldn’t exactly be thinking about conquering Antarctica anytime soon to accidentally stumble upon them, could probably bring ram back into lore as well since he’s in the same region

[shrewd pivot]

that seems like a lot of work to get to the Antarctic base though...? And Overwatch would stumble into Ramattra there probably, idk i see overwatch going to a different area for the meantime.

[civic lynx]

Based on the background they used for Mei’s mythic demo new things have been installed at the base, possibly by ow?

Unless a new faction or null sector are using it to do things since it’s abandoned and OW are busy fighting a war I don’t see how new things just appear there unless OW’s surviving members are forced to flee there

[spare fox]

idk I think Antarctica is too remote and hard to get to to be a base. And it's not like they're hiding from Vendetta

[acoustic ice]

it's over for echo if it's true that conquest affects the lore

[spare fox]

I don't think it's going to affect the lore, probably just some cosmetic stuff on maps I think

[civic lynx]

They’re definitely teasing something related to the event

[spare fox]

or cosmetic things in the interface

[civic lynx]

Personally I think it is echo but that’s not certain

[peak escarp]

I think it will just be map changes

[spare fox]

and MAYBE different voice interactions between characters/on maps

[peak escarp]

like putting more Talon flags around

[spare fox]

like I could see them recording 2 different sets of voicelines and going with one or the other based on the outcome

[shrewd pivot]

Watch points:

Watchpoint: Gibraltar (Gibraltar) Orbital launches -- Talon took this one over

Watchpoint: Grand Mesa (Colorado, United States) Weapons development -- we will get a hiest arc here

Watchpoint: Grímsvötn (Iceland) Select offender prison and weaponry confinement -- a new map set here with the big hole in the wall and robot

Watchpoint: Kisangani (Democratic Republic of the Congo) Information security
Watchpoint: Okeechobee (Florida, United States) Land reclamation and restoration
Watchpoint: Kerguelen (Kerguelen Islands) Biological studies
Watchpoint: Xining (South Korea) Societal analysis and documentation, as well as monitoring and targeting omnic integration efforts worldwide

[weak violet]

I noticed that Ram, Zen and Bastion were in Mei's video, plus they got a spray of them together, It probably doesn't mean anything, but it was curious, i got pictures but can't send them

[shrewd pivot]

my guess is that the map may be updated to have some kind of null sector detail or hint, since Ramattra has gone to the Antarctic

[spare fox]

I think if they're going to a watchpoint, it would probably be one of the ones not mentioned in Declassified, just a feeling

[civic lynx]

If they don’t end up moving OW to Antarctica I can definitely see them using the Iceland watch point since it’s becoming a new map later in the year

[shrewd pivot]

yeah that could work tbh!

[shrewd pivot]

😭 Overwatch makes a new home, Vendetta immediately blows it up x2 lmao
I am curious what caused the hole though!

[civic lynx]

I assume the robot being destroyed in the concept is from vendetta once again attacking them or something that was in the prison breaching containment

[shrewd pivot]

that big robot with a hole through it's torso on the iceland map, is a concept art design of Echo, probably not the same thing in canon anymore but still notable

[weak violet]

The what now

[civic lynx]

This big ass white thing laying against the wall

[weak violet]

When was this

[shrewd pivot]

inb4 mina liao had a giant prison-guard project as one of the unnamed projects

this was a tease for the new iceland map

[civic lynx]

Revealed at spotlight this year as one of the new maps coming soon

[shrewd pivot]

It's a map of Watchpoint: Grímsvötn (Iceland) Select offender prison and weaponry confinement
same place that held Akande iirc...?

[civic lynx]

The Tokyo concept from last year also appeared again but without any new things added

[shrewd pivot]

pure speculation but that left most hero could be a an escaped prisoner from the new iceland map...?

usually they have a character relate to a new map

[civic lynx]

Would make sense tbh

[spare fox]

a lot of people are suspecting Hivemind

[shrewd pivot]

hivemind would be goated to have on the roster one day

i do wonder what trenchcoat omnic will be then

[civic lynx]

Ig they could be linked to a map for next year or an existing one that we need more info on him to work out

[shrewd pivot]

i have to presume it's some kind of detective based on the trenchcoat and cane...?

might be looking into the eye conspiracy or some kind of mystery

[weak violet]

I wish he'll be something more interesting than a detective, we already got Sombra to be looking for answers

[shrewd pivot]

an omnic dandy though WOULD be peak....

[civic lynx]

I think a detective makes the most sense based on that silhouette he looks like spider noir inspired

[shrewd pivot]

i just hope trenchcoat omnic doesn't become the gumshoe sojourn was supposed to be haha. maybe an xfiles dynamic between the two? or something idk

[civic lynx]

I also wonder if them hiding his arm/hand that I assume is holding his main weapon or some sort of object behind S2’s character was deliberate to keep us from knowing too much or just them trying to fit them all into a small template

[shrewd pivot]

i listed my list of ideas prior so i wont reiterate it all but yeah trenchcoat omnic interests me bc im hyped for what the story will be for trenchcoat omnic

[weak violet]

He'll release the Mauga files

[shrewd pivot]

yeah hard to say if there's anything there or not, i wouldn't be suprised if the cane was the weapon in some kind of inspector gadget or 007 james bone device way

[shrewd pivot]

Actually hm.
Thinking about it now, Emre was forced by the eye conspiracy to visit security satellite sites, right?
And Emre is being urged by the eye conspiracy to work for Talon.

Overwatch Gibraltar has space launch pads. Either Talon just claimed that tech, or at minimum Talon destroyed Overwatch's ability to use that tech.

Maybe the eye conspiracy has something to do with denying space access?

[pastel stream]

do you have any theories as to what might happen to echo if the event is related to her?

[spare fox]

hmm wellll here's some spitball-theory I'm throwing out there.
So the Iceland Detainment WP (I can never and probably will never remember that name ffs) map has that white robotic thing that look like it's basically dead, right?

so that robot, it looks to have a lot of the same design as Echo... and according to Declassified, Dr. Liao had 2 other major projects that are still classified (the other 3 being Echo, aurora, and Athena)

so I wonder if that white Iceland robot was some kind of guardian AI of Dr. Liao's, and it was attacked to get data/info/tech that will eventually be used to capture Echo. I wonder if they used it on Athena when taking over Gibraltar, if that's the case

OR if Echo is their next target and whoever it is (Talon? the Conspiracy?) is just getting all the data/tech they can of Dr. Liao's

[chrome oak]

@barren vigil

@barren vigil

How do u feel about the Echo Cas lore drop back in 2019

[spare fox]

Actually, and I'm pretty sure you weren't asking me, but in Reunion, Cass picked up Echo when she was on the way via train
It makes me wonder: who sent her, where was she going? where was she coming from? and why?

I wonder if she was set to go to WP Grand Mesa when she was intercepted

and if that's what Talon is after

[pastel stream]

oooo that’s interesting, if you’re correct what do you think would change game wise? like would they somehow change echo?

[spare fox]

I have no idea what would change game-wise. Maybe cosmetic changes to maps and like I was theorizing earlier, some interactions and map voicelines

[barren vigil]

Hello shanze, thank you for asking! In my opinion, the echo-cass lore drop of 2019 is one of my favorites. Ashe is one of my favorite characters so seeing her was far more exciting than the appearance of Cassidy and echo, although I do enjoy those characters. My biggest disappointment with this particular cinematic is that Ashe loses the altercation, resulting in her becoming even further irritated with Cassidy. However I do believe that her loss makes plenty of sense character-wise, as her overconfidence and long history with Cassidy created a less than favorable matchup against him. All in all, even though I wish I could see one of my favorite characters putting on a better performance, I love this cinematic and I hope we can see more like it in the future.

[spare fox]

I wonder IF Talon gets Echo and she's corrupted somehow, if they'll (temporarily) change her voice/voicelines

not her whole VA, but different recordings of the same lines with a different tone - like how they did with Talon!Mercy

[heady wigeon]

I have a theory/ pitch for Reaper and Solider 76

We know with Overwatch being attacked by Vendetta that means everyone needs to be hands on deck

[chrome oak]

Wow YodaMungus This take is awesome! I see what you mean, as Ashe is one of your favorite characters, I understand why that cinematic brought you to feel how you currently do. I recall being excited but also very intrigued when Cas revealed Echo, and i really enjoyed playing her back in the day.

[chrome oak]

Yes i wondered those exact questions back in the day too... I always wanted them to come out with more lore about her introduction as it always felt a bit vague. Also, that's a great point, what if she is what Talon is after and what if she becomes corrupt...

[river merlin]

Is illari and symmetra top 5 strongest characters in lore?

[brisk forum]

def illari idk abt sym that much tho

sigma is definitely the strongest

[river merlin]

is illari like number 5 prob

doom echo zen sig ahead of her?

[brisk forum]

sigma yes he literally has to power to control gravity and create black holes

the only thing limiting his power is talon, moira and the fact that hes just straight up crazy

echo probably too, cus of the duplication

doom's strength is unsure atm after the battle with vendetta

[shrewd pivot]

That's a really interesting idea!
It would be very interesting if some one or some group out there was trying to get access to all of Liao's tech/projects. That would create some good suspense and intrigue to unravel who is doing that and why.

Huh...? https://x.com/owcavalry/status/2031569994388066776?s=46&t=Yih3kGo92m1F2RIijJKAuw

Overwatch Cavalry (@OWCavalry)

Mizuki Face Model Updated in #Overwatch ⛓️

Surprisingly, Mizuki has received updates to his unmasked face model before Anran, now featuring a sharper and wider jawline.

What do you think of the changes? 💭

X · Mar 11, 2026, 3:16 AM

Ig that's a Canon Mizuki design change lol?

Friend sent me the links.
I uh.... I thought Mizuki was intentionally designed to have a lankier look. Ig not...?

I mean hey if they are updating models, please make Vendetta's face/skull larger, her face doesn't look like it's attached to her neck properly because her face is so tiny.

[heady wigeon]

I’m…not sure why my post got muted

Perhaps it was too long

Oh well…I don’t really have the energy to add everything back

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah auto-mod kicks in if a message is too long! I ran into that issue before 😔

[heady wigeon]

Oh well…there goes the pitch I guess

Anyway

I heard some theory about Winston potentially being kidnapped by Talon when they attacked the base.

Would be cool since an overwatch leader—far less a leader—hasn’t been kidnapped by talon. Would they go so far as to somehow corrupt him? I seriously doubt it.

[shrewd pivot]

Winston is shown in the comic with the overwatch group though :o

[heady wigeon]

Nvm

[peak escarp]

looks like we have an answer to Kiriko's fox spirit

https://x.com/UniwatchOW/status/2031563131495796927

Jetpack Uniwatch (@UniwatchOW)

New hanzo and Kiriko interactions @OWvoicelines

This one is REALLY important, as they go over the anima weapons and how they were forged

Her ofuda are actually a gift to Kiri's grandma as an offering to marry Kiri's mom. awww

▶ Play video

X · Mar 11, 2026, 2:49 AM

it is tied to the ofuda

still doesn't explain how she can teleport, or address the issue with her age

[wise grotto]

I mean didn’t they literally just retcon the art and say kiris mom brought her along to the lessons not trained her at the same time

[peak escarp]

the art isn't the problem

it's that her age in her bio doesn't match the description

When she was twelve years old, the head of the clan, Sojiro Shimada, was assassinated by the rival Hashimoto clan.

Sojiro was assassinated 14 years ago

12 + 14 = 26, not 21

[wise grotto]

Oh so they’ve still missed a single spot

[shrewd pivot]

Ohhhh finally Kiriko answers

Mizuki can teleport too, so i presume it's Anima avatar tech that allows for the tp?

[peak escarp]

I guess... but she didn't have the ofuda when she was a child, her grandmother did

[shrewd pivot]

If the kitsune comes from the ofuda, maybe the kitsune ai can tp objects and people?

Also that's so sweet and solemn that the ofuda was a gift for her grandma, aw....

[paper gazelle]

Oh lmao then ig I'll take it they were in some other part of the dropship that was unseen in the comic, like the cockpit 🤣

But I'm actually also surprised about Ana being in there too

[peak escarp]

artists frequently make errors

[paper gazelle]

Fair

[spare fox]

it's not that surprising, she left Jack's mission so maybe she's there now

[paper gazelle]

So she has somehow rejoined Overwatch then, rather than that being an error by the artist?

[peak escarp]

could be either

[paper gazelle]

Yeah

But regardless, now that she's in the comic and read-aloud, I heavily doubt the devs will say "oh sorry folks she shouldn't be in there, please download the rectified version"

[peak escarp]

maybe she stuck around after the Christmas party

[paper gazelle]

That's what I'm guessing too

[peak escarp]

it's plausible for her to be there

now, if Soldier was randomly on the dropship for no reason, I'd be skeptical

[paper gazelle]

Yeah that'd be even stranger

[shrewd pivot]

I wonder if Japan will have anything to do with where overwatch finds refuge after the HQ Talon takeover. Atleast, it seems like the story is meant to progress towards that due to the horned hero who is probably Hashimoto, and Genji saying his commander might not let him leave to help Kiriko...

[paper gazelle]

Then they might recruit Mizuki?

And also Kiriko but she also might need to stay behind to lead the Yokai

[shrewd pivot]

Idk if Mizuki will join overwatch or just the Yōkai gang tbh

[spare fox]

they specifically said at the spotlight that Mizuki will join OW

[shrewd pivot]

Ah ok! Ty for the info

[paper gazelle]

Oh yeah right, no wonder I had that impression, thanks

[spare fox]

yeah, Hanzo and Kiriko on the other hand... I wonder about

[paper gazelle]

Or perhaps some Overwatch alignment/partnership for her

[spare fox]

I'd be shocked if Kiriko doesn't go to OW, because like... Kiriko

[paper gazelle]

Hanzo definitely more of an idk

[spare fox]

yeah I could see Hanzo staying behind and working with the Yokai

[wise grotto]

Hanzo meeting ow would be a shock situation

Last time him and genji met it didn’t go well

[shrewd pivot]

I could def see the Yōkai gang being against Talon bc of Hashimoto support, so maybe Overwatch would ally with what they can get in dire times like this?

[paper gazelle]

That's what I'm thinking yeah

[spare fox]

it all depends on if the Hashimoto are defeated (enough) or not, I'd imagine

[shrewd pivot]

And imo it's hard to say Overwatch would like... welcome the Yōkai gang bc technically the Yōkai gang are vigilantes and not "official" if that makes sense, so there's probably bad optics on the world stage for Overwatch to fully welcome in that kind of thing

[spare fox]

with Kiriko/Hanzo we could have another Dva situation where "Dva wouldn't join OW, she's got to defend Korea from the gwishin" and then she joined

[peak escarp]

technically Overwatch are vigilantes too

[paper gazelle]

^

[shrewd pivot]

Overwatch has to get IJC permission to act though, right?

[spare fox]

tbh I don't think it's that deep. Like yeah they're not going to get Reaper and Vendetta but common reformed criminals, I think it's gonna be cartoon logic, you know?

[paper gazelle]

After the Talon attack? Maybe

[peak escarp]

the IJC gave permission after Overwatch had already saved a few cities from Null Sector

it was a "you're suspended but we kinda need you right now so fine you can stay" sort of deal

[paper gazelle]

Now I'm curious whether that would happen to D.Mon as well or not

[peak escarp]

and now that Talon is a huge threat to the world, the IJC won't mind taking on a few more vigilantes

[shrewd pivot]

Right, it just seems the Yōkai gang are like, not officiated like other groups might be, and considering the og overwatch fell due to what the world saw as illegal vigilante stuff, I could easily see it being an overwatch alliance with Yōkai gang for a mission but not like, 'oh all Yōkai members are overwatch agents now' kind of deal?

It's not that the Yōkai gang are bad, it's just the political hoops that og overwatch had to go through, I imagine it still applies in some way

Unless Talon is just really really really bad atm, so world nations give the go ahead to do whatever

[spare fox]

idk maybe their specialties outweigh their crimes

[paper gazelle]

Well idt all of the Yokai would be admitted into Overwatch

Key members would more likely be, I reckon

[spare fox]

this also kind of reminds me of how on TV and in movies, you'll see someone like a detective or someone who's a "good guy" going to an already locked-up bigger "bad guy" for help against a different bad guy who's on the loose

I'm sure there's a more succinct trope name for it

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, isn't that bad optics for overwatch though? They just lost thier HQ, and "vigilante behavior" is what brought down og overwatch, so overwatch just accepting in Yōkai gang members without any official routes might have the world stage seeing a reoccurring pattern or something...? idk

[spare fox]

maybe but like, plot and rule of cool I imagine

[paper gazelle]

"An enemy of my enemy is my friend"

[shrewd pivot]

Oh for sure, I get what you mean

[spare fox]

it's not that serious of a world, yknow?

[paper gazelle]

That said, they'll need more help, so why not an alliance/partnership?

[shrewd pivot]

That's what I mean... og overwatch fell due to corruption. Neo overwatch needs to not make the same mistakes, plus neo overwatch are under even more scrutiny than before because of og overwatch mistakes

I wouldn't want it to be a "red vs blue" situation, I would expect some world stage optics like in og overwatch, to impact Overwatch's ability to do things. It would be interesting to see how neo overwatch navigates such things, and what makes neo overwatch different from og overwatch.

[shrewd pivot]

I mean.... declassified kind of held overwatch to a regard enough to get overwatch disbanded. That's a very pertinent part to overwatch's story.

[spare fox]

ok, I see what you're saying, but I don't think the 'politics' are going to play much of a part, seeing as how the story is more action-focused

it's like "Why would the Avengers/Catptain America work with the thieves in Guardians of the Galaxy since they were criminals" it's just for the sake of story

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I am thinking like, alliance for a mission with the Yōkai gang. The usual cartel style missions seen in such action media.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah and that's what I call bad writing. Declassified and well... The entire set up of overwatch's recall, made a big stink about the world stage's opinion on overwatch.

Notably, Gabrielle Adawe didn't think overwatch should be a forever thing.

To entirely ignore that lore, would be missing the point of overwatch ip

I would hope Vendetta isn't just doing explosions on screen and it becomes a red vs blue thing. Declassified made it clear overwatch wasn't free from the global stage hoops heroes have to jump through to do the hero work.

That's the whole reason Sojourn was picked to be leader, because she was the level headed leader they needed atm, someone who can navigate all that kind of stuff.

[spare fox]

it's not bad writing, it's entertainment
If they decide it would be cooler for Kiriko to join Overwatch (like they did for Bap), they're going to do it. They're not gonna pull out a rule book and be like "oh well, rules are rules!"

if that's what they want (and I'm sure they do) they'll make it happen

[shrewd pivot]

Let me rephrase: I think it's poorly quality writing to ignore prior lore to 'make plot happen' because that means there are no stakes, because things just... happen.

[spare fox]

ok, but they already have Baptiste, Lucio, Cassidy, Genji... all of them are criminals too

[shrewd pivot]

Yes?
Lúcio is obviously not in the wrong.

Cassidy and Genji are blackwatch and therefore would be under higher scrutiny.
Baptiste is hiding his past as far as I remember.

I just meant overwatch as an entire organization might be delicate in how they ally with the Yōkai gang, similar to other media where gangs are involved in operations

[spare fox]

not to mention Rein, Ana who were vigilantes and Winston/Tracer/Mei for answering the recall

[shrewd pivot]

Yeye, the IJC has approved Reinhardt being on missions, along with the others during the null sector attacks

It's about the idea that neo overwatch with It's big restart, doesn't make the same mistakes og overwatch does, so it might involve Sojourn being more by the books in that regard.

As in, I can see overwatch working with Yōkai gang to help take down Talon endorsed Hashimoto

But idk if the entire Yōkai gang would be publicly welcomed into overwatch as public agents

[peak escarp]

Sojourn might try to be by the books, but Winston has already shown that he is willing to go behind her back for the greater good

[shrewd pivot]

Yep!

[spare fox]

I'm sure the writers will make it work to get Kiriko and potentially other "criminal" characters to join OW if they want to, they're not going to just not

even if it's just a handwave like "ok the IJC approved it so"

[peak escarp]

the whole message of Overwatch is "the world could always use more heroes" - they're not going to turn down heroic characters just because they work outside the law

[shrewd pivot]

I think it will be interesting to see how neo overwatch navigates all that is what I am saying. It would be poor quality writing to just ignore the prior established lore of overwatch being under a magnifying glass by the world stage.

Well yeah, heroes don't have to be IN overwatch to be heroes

Kiriko right now is a hero, and will continue to be one regardless if she joins overwatch or not

[peak escarp]

I think you're holding the writing of Overwatch to a higher standard than they've shown so far

[spare fox]

I just think you're being way too rigid

[shrewd pivot]

(this is in reply to Doctor) Then what's the point of declassified....? It's not like overwatch lore is "red vs blue"

I honestly worry if that's the quality bc uh... Ramattra arc can't be "red vs blue" and it's shown that Ramattra isn't inherently happy with Talon either

[peak escarp]

what do you mean by "red vs blue"

[shrewd pivot]

By red vs blue I mean like, rigid "obviously good guys every good guy joins (blue overwatch skins) vs obviously bad guys all bad guys join (red talon skins)" -- the idea all factions MUST be Overwatch OR Talon, no possibility for third parties (ie, Phreaks being third party)

Like tf2 red vs blue, football red vs blue, the idea there can only be two teams.

Again, Gabrielle Adawe didn't think overwatch should be a forever thing, so it's not like overwatch is an inherent "good best option" -- obviously so since og overwatch fell due to corruption. Neo overwatch needs to change up some things lest they make the same mistakes og overwatch did.

[edgy meadow]

mizuki practiced his mewing

https://tenor.com/view/horse-mewing-mogging-sigma-brainrot-gif-11578561155013280151

funny change

[spare fox]

no, I meant rigid as in the rules must be followed at all times or else it's bad writing... when reality rarely ever works like that and the fact that stories don't either is what makes them interesting

[shrewd pivot]

I don't find it interesting when stories have random things happen that don't logically make sense within that worldbuilding. (Ie, Vendetta is nonaugmented, still no explanation for how she survived a giant robot hit to bare skin, that's plot armor not good writing/design. If any normal human can tank a gut punch from a giant robot, what's the point of cyborgs or upgrades?)
Creatively working within limitations creates very engaging stakes and fun choreography in fights! Ignoring past worldbuilding is bad writing imo.

That's why Mauga and Junkers arc will be so fun to see, we know Mauga is extremely cunning and strong, and JunkerQueen is extremely ruthless and hard to win over. We can expect it to be a very entertaining back and forth of JQ cinematic humor with Mauga's a great day humor, maybe a gladiator ring fight, and big personalities clashing. There are stakes there, and consequences if the negotiations go poorly.

[regal heath]

I hope they start opening "magic" or mystical powers up to non-Japanese characters. I know Sigma has super powers, but his powers aren't mystical or magical in nature.

Imagine a Gandalf-like wizard DPS. That would be so cool.

[regal heath]

Mewzuki.

[shrewd pivot]

Sigma references cosmic horror "forbidden knowledge that drives mortals mad" media + "sacred geometry" mysticism, with his gravity powers being superhero scifi.

I don't mind culture intertwined with tech, illari and Hanzo have fun takes imo

[regal heath]

Doesn't Illari use tech to harness solar energy?

[shrewd pivot]

Yes, solar threading (seems to be some kind of added prosthesis), inti warrior technology

[regal heath]

Hanzo summoning dragons can't be as simple as hard light technology, because the animation shows the dragons emanating from his bare, organic arm.

The Iris being "real" is also something I want to be true. That would make Sigma saying he's met the Iris be more ominous.

[shrewd pivot]

It's from Anima avatar technology. Kiriko’s dad creates a weapon, then adds the anima avatar tech to it.

Mizuki weapon, Genji dragon blade, Hanzo storm bow, and Kiriko’s ofuda that creates kitsune, are confirmed to be Anima avatar technology

[regal heath]

And what about Mizuki's curse then?

[shrewd pivot]

The Iris is "real" in the sense that there is some phenomena (yellow glowing light contruct called the Iris) left behind at the Shambali temple.

Sigma might have meant:

A) Sigma met Aurora (Aurora left behind the Iris after she sacrificed herself during the awakening)

B) Sigma saw the Iris during his gravity accident

C) Sigma was just confused

[regal heath]

I think it would be difficult to advance the plot around Ram and Zen without adding more credence to the Iris.

[shrewd pivot]

The Iris is an actual thing (the glowy yellow lights at the Shambali temple)

it's if the Iris is an actual afterlife ("we are all one within the Iris") or something is what is up for debate.

[shrewd pivot]

Unclear, but possible it's just paranoia,

Or some group that targeted Mizuki's family making it look like bad luck

[shrewd pivot]

Apologies, I just realized my message was poorly worded, I was answering Doctor but used the word rigid, pardon for the miscommunication on my end. I reworded my message to be more clear, sorry about that /genuine

[past copper]

https://youtube.com/shorts/ZjkYLIIICpY?si=I-je-I7AFLtFyScF

I find the Mauga and Roadhog interactions funny

Wonder if we get stuff like that when Mauga gets to Junkertown

Personally speaking. I would not be too shocked if Mauga met Junkrat and Roadhog once before

Between his missions for Talon and those two going on a global crime spree, anything is possible

[regal heath]

I love Mauga's character. Charismatic Sociopath.

[slim wasp]

https://vxtwitter.com/ruramme/status/2031632274060394948?s=46&t=vzyexn6-XZvt--tEuV5pSw

mel (@ruramme)

this comment really spoke to me

QRT: AquaDefiant
@ruramme Winston goes out of their base to their little mailbox and turns to his right and we also see ramattra walk out of his base to also get mail from his little mailbox

vxTwitter / fixvx · Mar 11, 2026, 7:24 AM

[cunning copper]

(so he's not a total loser which would be even worse for the perception of doom strength wise)

[cunning copper]

check the punchline. (no pun intended)
punching bag for the good guys

i mean. the bad in overwatch aren't really threats if that makes sense up until now with gibraltar gone which was right after vendetta took over

up until recently we've never really seen the main antagonists threaten the existence and/or power of overwatch

i think this ties into a deeper point which is the fact that I don't think overwatch can kill off characters which are heroes

why doesn't ramattra want conquest and or destruction and chooses to back out right as overwatch starts to weaken? because it's convenient for the plot. DUUUH.

[brittle sky]

(of hiring two teenagers who looked cool on the news)

[brittle sky]

I mean in the defense of the bad guys, overwatch just became a thing again.

[brittle sky]

I mean they also established before that he wants something more nuanced, and the perception he was looking to wipe out humanity in some kind of reverse racism thing was just people presuming the widespread attacks equalled that.

You can argue there's doylist reasons behind that, but there was already doylist reasons for why ram would choose a goal that involved sending out waves of thousands of bots you didn't have to feel bad about shooting into the world to enable pve in the first place.

[shrewd pivot]

"doylist" is such a useful word ty for teaching me that one, your vocabulary is very insightful /genuine

and yeah i am. very glad Ramattra was given nuance, i myself was surprised Ramattra was willing to let humanity live out it's NATURAL lifespan, I could have easily seen Ramattra ushering along a doomsday(not directly killing humanity, but causing inhospitable conditions for humans) had they gone further in pve. (I presumed this a possibility because Ramattra was willing to ally with Talon to begin with)
I personally think the canon outcome of "ramattra refuses to save humanity from itself" is a really interesting set up for Ramattra

but yeah, Doomfist was #PotentialMan, i would argue that was in part because PVE was canned, Akande and Maximilien were shown discussing some kind of deal in the trailers

I just hope when Doomfist comes back, they let him do some interesting "philosophical discussions" within the story. In Efi and Orisa's long novel, we got some of that, and while a rather weak implementation of that idea, it did carry potential to have Doomfist be this really fun "5d chess" kind of villain that heroes have to navigate lest Doomfist 'win' because he believes "the strong should rule the weak"

[shrewd pivot]

I highly doubt overwatch will move into ecopoint Antarctica but i am loving the memes

[past copper]

As we get closer to the end of season 1, we get more lore in the Talon vs Overwatch event

Perhaps we'll see where Overwatch is forced to hide until they can devise a plan against Talon

[digital linden]

aren’t there other watchpoints they could regroup at?

that might be too obvious though

[past copper]

Most watchpoints are under security by Helix

It's very doubtful they'll just let Overwatch come in, even with Pharah on their team

Not to mention, based on what Vendetta has done so far to two cities

[civic lynx]

https://x.com/last_ow_skin/status/2031460053434417506?s=46

Days Since Last OW Skin (@Last_OW_Skin)

It looks like 2 more stories are coming soon for Overwatch ROT: S1! I can't wait to see what other stories there are to tell now that every new hero has gotten a story update/introduction!

X · Mar 10, 2026, 7:59 PM

I assume second to last is talon at Gibraltar then the final one reveals s2’s hero?

[past copper]

Safe to say, Overwatch isn't gonna be able to hide for long. Talon has eyes and ears everywhere

[spare fox]

yeah I really don't think Overwatch is hiding from Talon

they just need to find a new base and regroup

I do want to bring up a totally different piece of the lore, however: Mizuki and his 'curse'

I wonder what Venture would have to say about his 'curse', y'know? especially since they seemed interested in Ana's cursed artefacts especially

but curses are so intrinsic to burials in basically every culture ever

I wonder if they (Venture) would be able to give him some hope to break the 'curse'

[meager geyser]

Have they specified what this curse even is?

Does it kill him or give him bad luck or what?

[spare fox]

it's nebulous at this point but he's convinced his family is cursed

now, I don't think the curse is an actual thing in the lore, mind

I think it's part of his character and what drives him, but not an actual thing like the Iris or the Conspiracy

[shrewd pivot]

that would make for a good voice interaction!

[acoustic ice]

wtf there is hope for echo,,,,

[digital linden]

i rlly hope it doesn’t effect the real lore

the red skin is just cooler though

[shrewd pivot]

I think it would be interesting if it was like... for a minor lore aspects, but i hope it's not huge lore implications bc they stack the rewards in obvious ways (like the week with Domina) that would create the illusion of choice haha

[shrewd pivot]

this is cool! I enjoy when heroes reference cultural media tropes like this :)

https://x.com/redtapeinfake/status/2031818115374297452#m

🏳️‍⚧️ Radiant Red 🏳️‍⚧️ (@redtapeinfake)

the actual reason she eats so many donuts is a reference to japanese mythology, Kiriko would be considered possessed by one of Inari's kitsune, which we can gather from her kitsune being blue and white (though Inari's are pure white), and kitsune possession induces sugar cravings

X · Mar 11, 2026, 7:42 PM

[shrewd pivot]

here's my take for canon adjacent outcomes in the ow brackets lol

illari i think could disable or destabalize hardlight technology in theory since in the text story she was able to mess with the electricity in the base, some kind of EM powers
Domina can float and is longer range than Zarya
Emre with chernobog ai takeover could probably overpower illari

[shrewd pivot]

huh... just was shown this. It really does feel like Anran and Wuyang are like, vent art writing plots...? And while that writing absolutely can be meaningful and relatable, I don't think it's always a plotline fit for every ip. Overwatch is based on pulp fiction and movie references. Wuyang and Anran are supposed to be Wuxia heroes, but the writers and designers have failed that, it's westernized botched vague notions of Wuxia and Wuxing, while the """Wuxing university""" is a blatant allegory for college pressures Chinese youth face. which is... not positive rep imo.

Anran has a bleak story, and is traumatized, thinking she has to take care of others and be perfect, and seemingly... /overwatch/ will save Anran from her toxic culture upbringing? we have had bad upbringings before (Cassidy, Genji), but none where Overwatch has to teach a hero their traditional culture is toxic.

DVA i think is a very good example of critiquing East Asian societal pressures and toxic East Asian culture aspects while still presenting a fun campy role model/positive rep. DVA is Korean and unapologetically effeminate AND strong AND a pro-gamer, all while being a true hero dedicated to keeping others safe while the rest of the MEKA squad seemingly go along with the 'idol life' stuff. DVA working hard was deemed as a positive quality, but not in a "sacrificing is good, actually" bc she was only working hard to SAVE LIVES from gwishin, and not one where it's bleak-- DVA's story is still very optimistic despite the serious odds kind of story. And in ow1 DVA wasn't made to wear ooc outfits for base design, DVA's design was a media reference.

I think it was maybe... a really big miss to have only an extremely negative portrayal of Chinese culture in overwatch world building thus far, because Lucheng is a RIDICULOUSLY evil company, now pair that with Wuyang's and Anran's connection to traditional Chinese culture being a complete negative: The Ye sibling's parents are emotionally abusive "tiger parent" stereotype, Anran doesn't enjoy traditional fan dancing despite that being her whole theme, Anran as eldest daughter was made to raise Wuyang as a child which maybe IS relatable but IS very bleak, Wuyang (based on Guo Jing who has a developmental disability) is unironically shamed by ableist parents/community. Where is the Ye sibling's agency? They 'escape' to Overwatch only because they were indoctrinated to 'prove themselves' not because it was a real choice they took to CHOSE a better path, like with Cassidy, Baptiste, even Ashe denying her parents.

Like seriously the fact Ye siblings story can be summed up as: "parents were olympians. Anran is an olympian and got into prestigious uni, Wuyang didn't get high enough scores, became a physical therapist. His community shames him for not being an olypian, while ALSO shaming Anran for not raising Wuyang well enough." is wild. Ashe had more guts at 18 to reject her emotionally abusive parents, so idk. Feels kinda odd to have Wuyang and Anran be so... 'indoctrinated' into what is just overwatch's 'regular chinese culture' (keep in mind, Hanzo and Genji were in the freaking YAKUZA, ofc that would be indoctrination. Wuyang and Anran are in chinese college culture allegory). Compare Wuyang and Anran, to other heroes like Kirko and Ashe whole stepped up when they were young defying traditions yet still being a character that celebrates cultural genre media.

ig i will have to see how Anran and Wuyang's story ultimately ends, but it would kind of suck if the overwatch take on Wuxia heroes aren't about Wuxia tropes AT ALL, and are all about critiquing toxic chinese culture without any celebration of Wuxia genre. like. why make Anran and Wuyang Wuxia genre heroes atp? Wuxia media is super super fun, overwatch has camp celebrating all kinds of media tropes, why can't wuxia be the same badass fun as other genres?

[crisp canyon]

Illari diffs emre anyday

[shrewd pivot]

Emre with chernobog ai controlling is op tho haha

[lean violet]

anyone here genuinely know a shit ton about overwatch/overwatch lore

[crisp canyon]

Clanker will face the sunrise

[shrewd pivot]

i might be able to help but @peak escarp is the person to ask

[lean violet]

no no no very basic i just need someone who can answer my questions

[shrewd pivot]

sure I can try to answer! what questions do you have?

[shrewd pivot]

This kaplan interview is actually wild. Idk if this would apply to lore channel, but it helps put context to overwatch's pipeline of how lore is made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9rF1CSSh-w

Kaplan had some. uh. eyebrow raising statements, to say the least.

[edgy meadow]

oh wow this is like

new

[shrewd pivot]

yeah just came out today

[edgy meadow]

ill have to watch it later but we already lowk got that jeff was a big component to the downfall of the game come ow2 release

[shrewd pivot]

i disagree with. so many statements made in that interview it's not even funny. They straight up are being nostalgic about crunch.... "crunch" is a cute name for worker abuse, and the fact they look back like it's 'fond memories' wtf that's a toxic work environment, not healthy.

[twilit patrol]

This came out of nowhere

Wild

[shrewd pivot]

the comments about being a lead, like. extremely obvious statements about empathy like it's profound....????? I'm sorry???? I work in engineering and this kind of ego fueled culture Kaplan is talking about, is actually a fireable offense.

the fact Kaplan preferred small teams bc "there's a weird thing that happens, just a human nature thing, the less you interact with somebody the more you sort of become alienated from them, and vilify their point of view. you tend to look at what they do with skepticism rather than trust and belief in them." is actually wild to say. It's not "human nature" it's apathy.
Like yes, i get it. yes, big unhealthy teams pit sections against eachother. But if coders are saying "the artists just don't get it!" that coder is NOT a good team mate and should not have that job because they cannot collaborate.

But if his way of leading teams ONLY WORKS with small teams, lest there be 'human nature' that builds actual hostile apathy, that just means you do not have the infrastructure to support a healthy work environment.

[edgy meadow]

when you remember how overwatch as a game first came to be, this explains a lot

https://tenor.com/view/sea-lion-sea-lion-sealion-spinna-gif-6572328635488597288

[shrewd pivot]

yeah

[edgy meadow]

good to know i have even more reason to hate jeff

[shrewd pivot]

no wonder the mmo squandered. Kaplan also phrases things in this interview so terribly, he absolutely had someone coaching his wording when he was the face of overwatch

[edgy meadow]

opens video
'Rust is the most pvp thing in all of pvp'

ye i see what you mean about the phrasing

even the interviewer highkey just said 'i dont know what that means'

crine

[shrewd pivot]

also, electro shock therapy being presented as neutral and 'situational' by Kaplan??? excuse me???? genuinely unhinged to say and an unsafe practice during his time.
Jeff to me seems like a person with mental health issues that did not get the help he needed :(
Which was pretty much my exact experience with the media industry when i worked in animation. many people who struggle with addiction. lots of crunch (worker abuse). go figure...

[twilit patrol]

Aaron Keller my beloved

[edgy meadow]

dawg 😭 this fucking video

im crine

[shrewd pivot]

the interviewer and kaplan talking about basic empathy like it's profound leadership tips is frying me

[edgy meadow]

they start out the section talking about him getting the job in blizzard by finding an old copypasta he made where he ''''gave feedback to devs of the game'''' (he called them [[r word]] chimps and told them to get their heads out of their asses)

[twilit patrol]

Did he share his opinion about how is the game today ?

[edgy meadow]

actually crine

[shrewd pivot]

what year was this Kaplan, bc the r slur was def a slur 20 years ago. 🤨

[edgy meadow]

this was when kaplan no-lifed everquest

everquest released in 1999

so at earliest this was 1999

likely later

[shrewd pivot]

ah ok, it probably had less weight then...? (was used to mean idiot, it evolved into a harsher slur over the years). still, not... great.

[crisp canyon]

Idek if Kaplan still works in a public space

I kinda just figured he retired

[shrewd pivot]

its a 5 hour long interview, still watching

also
"you should always listen to what people have to say and try to make that idea work" -- this was presented as a "big learning moment" as a new lead. I'm speechless. That is.... common sense????? hello????
You should always listen to what people have to say, period. if you don't know what someone is saying, you don't know what they are even communicating to you. they might be offering a better idea during creative brainstorm sessions!!!!!!

"try and make that idea work" without ego-- no, because some ideas have bad context and should not be included. you get bigoted stereotypes with ignorant takes on media being "how can we make that work" (WoW has some rough negative stereotypes)

"try and make that idea work" with ego -- your ego has to be huge if you think your take on nonessential aspects in art are somehow superior to anyone else by default.

[twilit patrol]

Yeah it's long and there are no subtitles so I can't understand everything

[shrewd pivot]

I'll let you know then!

[twilit patrol]

Thx

It's crazy that it's been 5 years we didn't see Kaplan and this podcast came out of nowhere

[shrewd pivot]

yeah

"but please understand it's what makes me who I am, that work ethic. I enjoy it," followed up by "some of my fondest memories are from those WoW crunches" is actually bewildering

"work ethic", and it's unhealthy burnout paces??????
I am autistic, so i fully understand being hyperfixated and being a flow state of work, when I work I work a lot of hours, but this is just. so gross idk. no one should be looking back on crunch culture (worker abuse) fondly. Kaplan might have been having fun during those wow crunches but his coworkers certainly were not.

[twilit patrol]

What the hell

[shrewd pivot]

yeah like. on one hand i GET what Kaplan is trying to say, he is passionate!
on the other, it's so so so obvious he has ego and this... very limited view on things? (the 'profound' treament of basic empathy learning lessons as a lead...) i'm just seeing a ton of red flags, i would not want him as my lead lmafo. no wonder things went south.

[twilit patrol]

So it's worse than I imagined

[crisp canyon]

Oh this interview is recent?

I thought it Stone Age

[shrewd pivot]

honestly i think microactiblizz is messed up to begin with, the media industry isn't really known to be a healthy working environment to begin with....

yeah it's new, came out today

[twilit patrol]

Yeah it released 3 hours ago

[fallow mantle]

Damn his actual reason for leaving Blizzard, poor guy. Wtf that's evil

[crisp canyon]

And when Kaplan announces a new hero shooter next week

[twilit patrol]

Wait what did he say

[fallow mantle]

Hold on

[fallow mantle]

He was called into the CFO office and told

"If you don't make X amount with a recurring revenue of Y and Z, we're going to lay off 1000 people and that's going to be on you" so yeah I can see why he left tbh

The numbers were beeped out

[shrewd pivot]

so he didn't leave bc he disagreed with the direaction of overwatch? it was purely for not meeting metrics?

[fallow mantle]

Weight of the company wanting to prioritise making money over what he and the team wanted to do

It's spoken about from 4:08:00ish

[shrewd pivot]

i haven't watched far enough, do they speak about pve?

[fallow mantle]

I made it from 4:08 to 4:20 but now I sleeps

Uh basically he says...

People have a misconception he wanted it to be just PVE, he says he would've loved the PVE but the priority was always the pvp because of how huge the crowd was, and that it'd be harder to bring in solely PVE players, and corporate kept taking away PVE stuff because they wanted to make money off th pvp stuff. He was happy doing the events like we used to have, so stuff like

The events, lore drops, heroes, etc

But corporate pushed back and tried to reshape it and he felt his control was lost

[shrewd pivot]

so pve wasn't his choice of focus at all? who decided ow2 to have a pve mode?

[fallow mantle]

Ended up leaving due to the threat of blackmail and people losing jobs due to impossible goals. Apparently overwatch league was originally meant to be bigger than the NFL, and he returned to work one day and billionaires had signed up to take over teams and he was like 'wtf????'

[edgy meadow]

from what he said in the interview the main reason he left was basically that the decision making started to be dominated by business and finance people

[fallow mantle]

I'm paraphrasing, but my takeaway was, he wanted both to have a spotlight. But pvp was always the main priority and PVE was the additional

[edgy meadow]

which

sure we already had that impression

that seems fair

[fallow mantle]

Yeah thank you that's right

[shrewd pivot]

yeah it's from gross ceo trying to pump up ow league to make money...

[edgy meadow]

he cited overwatch league as a moment when the executive mindset shifted from using it to promote the community to making money out of the league, as a catalyst to this change

[shrewd pivot]

ig i will wait to watch it but im confused, i thought the goal was: ow1 pvp crawl, ow2 pve walk, ow3 mmo run

[edgy meadow]

basically they just tried to selll owl teams to billionares

which makes sense given that we know from other accounts they actually did this

hell we even know that Elon Musk was one of said billionares who had interest in buying owl teams at the time

[shrewd pivot]

especially with gambling on esports being allowed now... yeah it was a scummy move to try and make money that way

[crisp canyon]

The Weeknd owned Toronto defiant at one point

[edgy meadow]

that does sound like the Bobby Kotick mentallity so

[crisp canyon]

Owl bigger than the nfl is crazy, e sports is never gonna have the appeal of actual sports

[edgy meadow]

i sympathise with Jeff in this account of the story

[shrewd pivot]

gambling on games can actually outcompete football betting. the mobile game market is a huge cash cow. still, very stupid what they did with overwatch league. set a lot of people up for failure.

[shrewd pivot]

anyone who had to interact with kotick has my sympathies :/

[crisp canyon]

But owl wasn’t ever going to be mobile, there esp wasn’t a market for e sports betting when it kicked off, if anything it was more based in the kind of pseudo millennial culture of e sports is gonna be massive cause it’s big in Asia, but that relies heavily on the audience to want to watch, esp now with how twitch took off there will never be something like that

[shrewd pivot]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/1rr7d2r/jeff_kaplan_interview_discussing_overwatch_why_he/ here is a link that has text about what was covered in the comments

[twilit patrol]

Tysm

[shrewd pivot]

yeah exactly. some rich idiot's idea of 'what's hip' involved with lootbox gambling leading to esports gambling. i won't discuss the heavy situation but yeah.

[crisp canyon]

He said tracer is his babygirl still and I respect that

I wonder if that’s why she’s been sidelined, almost as if they feel like tracer is representing the past of the game by sticking around as the poster girl

[shrewd pivot]

Tracer represents overwatch's optimism scifi imo and is a very iconic character.

also... i'd much prefer a grown woman character (mid 20s) getting fanservice as the postergirl for overwatch, thanks.

[edgy meadow]

i did not get to this part of the video yet, im crine;

"During development on Titan, someone had run an official fake democratic naming exercise by putting options up on a whiteboard and pretending they actually wanted people’s input while already having their own preferred choice in mind and steering toward that choice. Overwatch was one of the options for a police-type faction in Titan, but it ended up getting the most votes so someone took it as kind of a middle finger to this person who had pretended to value feedback. Jeff basically stole the name for his new game as an act of rebellion against them."

[crisp canyon]

If that was the case I could kinda understand why it’s shifted towards Kiriko because she was like the launch hero for 2, and it makes sense going forward to have this new mascot represent the game

[edgy meadow]

So ts is how the name of the game got chosen

https://tenor.com/view/sea-lion-sea-lion-sealion-spinna-gif-6572328635488597288

unserious behavior

[shrewd pivot]

it's not even because overwatch is a military tactic???

oh my god

[crisp canyon]

The interviewer of this podcast I feel is very awful at his job

[shrewd pivot]

"overwatch" like overseeing big brother, bc it was a cop faction in Titan????

[crisp canyon]

He is not provoking much meaningful conversation or inquiry

[past copper]

I can see why people saying Jeff leaving was one of the best things to happen to the game

[edgy meadow]

ye bro just kind of sat on the chair and let jeff yap for 5 hours

[edgy meadow]

That seems to be the case

😭

[shrewd pivot]

"you continue to speak with so much humility," is he though.... is he.... (Kaplan has obvious ego)

[crisp canyon]

I woudlve liked to hear more honestly ab his thoughts on how the game is now, and where he thought the rough patches were, something he would’ve done if he still there, thoughts on the new heroes

[twilit patrol]

Yeah same

[edgy meadow]

Kaplan is probably deliberately staying away from that and I think thats for the better

[crisp canyon]

And bro is just sitting there like “that’s crazy”

[twilit patrol]

I wonder if he was actually in favor of 5v5 or against it

[past copper]

He can't say nothing now that the game has gone further than he would have got it

[shrewd pivot]

im laughing bc in lore overwatch is basically still a global cop faction if you think about it.

[edgy meadow]

i think it would be extremely awkward if Kaplan's sincere thoughts were that the game is ass right now and he shittalked the game, for everyone involved

conversely, I think the team probably dont want or really care to aknowledge Kaplan

[shrewd pivot]

i wouldn't assume it's only Kaplan than is an issue tho lol

[crisp canyon]

I feel like there was something about him being a driving force for 5v5 but honestly 5v5 was awful long term until perks came along so I feel like it may have been reverted to the main gameplay if he was still there

[edgy meadow]

its an oversimplification but i get what you mean

it definitely feels like it changed drastically from the vision in Titan

[shrewd pivot]

i haven't gotten far enough in the video, so i shall see

[edgy meadow]

one of the things I do personally really enjoyed about the interview was giving a lot of details about what Titan was aimed to be and why itfailed

it was meant to be an MMO that only came to exist bc blizzard at the time was fully and utterly convinced WoW was gonna die off in 5 years (which is funny on its own)

[twilit patrol]

I don't think 5v5 was awful long term

[edgy meadow]

characters in Titan were gonna be "secret agents" rather than full time heroes - half the time, aka during the day, your character would be part of a life-simulator gameplay loop that had heavy inspiration from animal crossing and games of that time

where your character would do regular shit

[crisp canyon]

5v5 was pretty rough for tank players for the first two years I would say

[edgy meadow]

and during the night youd belong to a class with a shell of over-the-top abilities that you would upgrade

[shrewd pivot]

i think we knew that from leaks or something long ago, but oooo i can't wait to hear about that first hand

[edgy meadow]

i wont spoil too much about that bc that was honestly a really interesting part of the interview

[shrewd pivot]

from the leak, it was time traveling heroes, had a 'superman vs klark' mechanic with a normal day job and a secret hero nightime where you go to important moments in history to do hero work

[crisp canyon]

Eventually ppl just accepted for what it was but it def only got better and put the whole 6v6 convo to an end when perks got to the game imo that saved 5v5

[shrewd pivot]

6v6 still had better tank experience tho imo

[edgy meadow]

ye thats what jeff is sharing

[twilit patrol]

I've been tank main since 2017 and I prefer 5v5 by far

[edgy meadow]

quite literally he said that they had a Sims gameplay designer in the lead of the 'during the day' stuff

[crisp canyon]

Bans also drastically helped the whole counter meta that was happening before that

[twilit patrol]

The game needed something new yeah

Perks is definitely one of the best additions

[shrewd pivot]

5v5 puts all the pressure on one tank, and if your tank isn't great you lose. in 6v6 there was atleast one other tank to help

[crisp canyon]

5v5 isn’t really something that’s new tho

[shrewd pivot]

also off tanks lost thier vibes once it was one tank only in 5v5

[twilit patrol]

I'm talking about perks

[edgy meadow]

also this is extremely funny, first red flag on Project Titan - one of the big ideas on the game was that, unlike every other MMO which split players into servers, every player would be put into one global scale server

https://gifconvert.vxtwitter.com/convert.avif?url=https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/HChrtb3awAAP4EA.mp4

[crisp canyon]

There’s no way u preferred going against prime Mauga 😭 in 5v5 with no perks or bans

[edgy meadow]

ts is so fucking funny

[shrewd pivot]

oh that would not work lmafo

[twilit patrol]

I'm not saying that I loved prime Mauga lmaooo

[edgy meadow]

youd think the people who developed WoW would know that

[twilit patrol]

I never had an issue with 5v5

[shrewd pivot]

see, that's why you can't be saying "let's see if we can make that idea work" bc tech coworkers should have been "uh, not possible."

[twilit patrol]

Mauga's kit clearly does suck

[shrewd pivot]

"these artists just don't get it!" is a reasonable response to 1 global server haha

[edgy meadow]

all of this was thought out while making a brand new fucking game engine to design the game

so it wasnt even on tested infrastructure

[crisp canyon]

Some of the tanks you couldn’t really play without getting rolled on, like ball wasn’t even designed to be in 5v5 and fucking Orisa could snipe you with a spear and push you into the next match with it

[edgy meadow]

they had to design the infrastructure in real time to make a global sized server

[shrewd pivot]

who let them cook

i had redflags of echo chamber from the beginning of the interview, that approach of making "instrastucture real time" for a global sized server is very much echo chamber induced

[edgy meadow]

'we would have GTA-style real-life driving for players to move between the big cities we designed'

[twilit patrol]

Most of tanks were designed for OW1 yeah but they changed them. I remember when Ball was reworked and it improved his quality of life very well

[crisp canyon]

Yeah but it took them like a whole year after 5v5 launched to do so

[edgy meadow]

i dont think even modern day hardware can do that reliably for most MMOs

[twilit patrol]

Still waiting for Reinhardt to get a similar rework btw

[crisp canyon]

I still don’t think ball is designed to be a solo tank

[shrewd pivot]

yeah... i could see a loading map BETWEEN cities, but there ought to be separate servers. I assumed bc there was time travel in the leak, the mmo would have "timelines" aka servers LOL?

[shrewd pivot]

DVA as an off tank in 6v6, feels better than solo DVA in 5v5 tank tho....

[edgy meadow]

'...so fast forward we shut the game down in 2013, it was one of the most painful design experiences ive ever been on. But all the way back in 2009 [after starting development in 2007] I already knew the game would never be able to ship in its current form'

https://tenor.com/view/disappointed-gif-6926056175290310705

4 years???

[crisp canyon]

Rein was another who genuinely awful at first 2 when it launched

[edgy meadow]

and you goofy ahh team did nothing

[shrewd pivot]

good god

[edgy meadow]

you had 4 years after realising the game was fucked in its current iteration

and you just let it ride

the fact he didnt get fired in 2013 just for wasting 83 million dollars and nearly a decade of work time is a miracle

[shrewd pivot]

yeah after the ow2 pve getting canned, i could see scummy corpo being like "look at project titan, we can't have this happen again, metrics people metrics!"
like the higher ups were bad do not get me wrong, but drifting 4 years on titan is very bad

[twilit patrol]

Honestly Rein was pretty fine when OW2 launched but they released so many heroes for 3 years and his kit didn't age well. It's outdated and needs a small update.

[crisp canyon]

I liked that off tanks were more supportive for the shield back in 6v6, I wouldn’t have minded if 6v6 continued if tanks were split into sub roles and each tank had to be one of them

[shrewd pivot]

yeah a "shield tank" + "off tank" would have worked nicely

but apparently the player % better suit a 5v5 set up, less % of players play tank...

[peak escarp]

this doesn't sound like lore talk

[twilit patrol]

True actually

[crisp canyon]

They’re not being serious in the serious channel either

[shrewd pivot]

yeah, pardon. ill move back to lore

[twilit patrol]

It's been a great talk though

Gonna go sleep

Gn

[opaque tundra]

If you think about it we were still talking about the lore of Overwatch

[shrewd pivot]

nah i was talking 5v5 vs 6v6, that's not lore

[peak escarp]

how so

[crisp canyon]

True

[shrewd pivot]

no haha

finally getting to project titan section of the interview

i need an overwatch mmo....

Titan reminds me a lot of firefall mmo tbh.

2005-2006 starts Titan dev ideation.
late 2007 got really started in Titan dev.
2008 Kaplan joins Titan dev team.
2009, Kaplan knew the game could never ship.
2010 Kaplan thinks Titan has to shut down.
Shut it down in 2013.

Kaplan says the titan failure comes down to "leadship, team leadership, myself included"

83 million dollars wasted overall, and 4 years knowing it wasn't going to work.... yeesh

ok his philosophy of "don't hire until you feel like this won't ship" is a terrible idea. obviously the other way, as titan hiring too many pointlessly is bad, but you should be able to have the infrastructure in place to onboard more employees if the need arises. expecting it to always remain small, sets up things for unhealthy work environments later. the "small team only" is very much "crunch culture" :/

Kaplan was expecting his career to be over after the Titan failure.

dual wield pistols, duel G18s from modern warfare 2, "infinity ward" inspired tracer's pistols 3:34:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9rF1CSSh-w

ok yeah Titan to overwatch naming is. very lackluster lmafo

3:39:46

[spare fox]

yeah instead they pivoted to OWL and appeasing balance bros, just sliding the dmg per bullet and cooldowns for like 5 years instead of investing in new content rip

[shrewd pivot]

yeah... atleast the 5 heroes plus all the other heros this year catches us up from the pause of hero releases ig...

[edgy meadow]

i do genuinely think investing into the game of overwatch rather than treating the project as the 'crawl' is a good thing.
The problem obviously comes from the executive collapse of the leadership which is when the game got into the stagnated period between pve development to current day

[edgy meadow]

also like lets be so fucking fr do we really think the team behind this clusterfuck of Titan could justify making a brand new pve game within 2 years after making a game

this is, at best, comically wishful thinking

[shrewd pivot]

"bright hopeful future" and "a future worth fighting for"
"overwatch a world tour of places you want to go to", aspirational locations
"bright hopeful version of that could look like" and he names Oasis?????????????????

ig visually it's nice but lol Oasis is not hopeful

[edgy meadow]

also im noticing a very weird trend throughout jeff's talking points

he's a big big fan of MMOs but he refuses to stick on a single project and really help a live service game grow and grind over a long period of time

[shrewd pivot]

yeah...
he directly states it was them asking to not be canceled, a begging to be believed in to create a product, slapped things on 'mobile' to appease the 'move to mobile' focus at the time

[edgy meadow]

he keeps jumping from different ideas and visions

which to me projects lack of focus

[boreal oxide]

nymble ir from phantasmal flames

[edgy meadow]

they were just done wasting 7 years of work and he already thinks about making 3 completely different types of games while trying to pitch a project meant to save his team from getting fire into oblivion

[edgy meadow]

sure that makes sense

[shrewd pivot]

Kaplan only calling Cassidy his old name.... 🧍like he says the name multiple times, no mention of the new name at all. the interviewer had to add an image to indicate it was cassidy.

the one good thing about ow1 was the simplistic pick up and play idea though, i must admit.

[edgy meadow]

there was a lot of good about ow1

which is why i fundamentally disagreed with his insistance to move on from the game so quickly

and again

seeing the clusterfuck of titan its no fucking surprised ow2/pve fell flat on its face

[shrewd pivot]

pardon, i meant the one undeniably good thing kaplan leaned INTO for ow1, was the simple "pick up and play" idea

[edgy meadow]

ah

ye that makes sense

lol

[shrewd pivot]

pardon my poor wording! you're all good it was mb

ow2 was pitched in 2015, before ow1 launched in 2016

"this was all just bullshit" for set dates he pitched to his bosses??????????????????
4:04:10

the dates her were just bullshit?????

[edgy meadow]

i mean ye that makes sense

as i said before

overwatch was a scramble

making another game within 2 years after that

on a brand new engine

is at best child-like optimistic

[safe cedar]

Ho

[edgy meadow]

of course its bullshit

[safe cedar]

Holis

[shrewd pivot]

i'm sorry but that is fundamentally incompetent to pitch the game with actual set dates, and then Kaplan is like "this was just bullshit" "you might as well etch it into stone" no duh???????????????????????

this just seems like Kaplan making all the mistakes of Titan again with ow2. wth

the way he describes it so nonchalantly too???? "the executives started getting really angry with us, that overwatch 2 was slipping slipping"

How was he allowed to be in charge for so long if he was so obviously not competent in leading?

[wise grotto]

Because he was in the tech industry and a higher up he could get away with incompetence for plenty of time

[hard quartz]

hallo

[shrewd pivot]

he is literally doing the thing he said you shouldn't do--making it out like "oh this group just doesn't get it!"

he is making it out like the team was whining about ow2, "oh my god you are overscoping the patches, why are we doing this halloween event, we should start focus on overwatch 2. we shouldn't be this focused on the live game. which was fucking nuts"

no duh Kaplan, riding the live service game while REFUSING TO EXPAND YOUR TEAM SIZE TO GET OW2 DEV GOING IN THE BACKGROUND WHILE THE LIVE GAME GETS UPDATES would cause issues holy crap

he just talked down to devs who rightfully said "hey, we need to ship this ow2 game" wth

it's absolutely Kaplan's fault for not managing the team properly because you can't just ride the live service wave while neglecting the ow2 promise you made to executives

baffling choices

[edgy meadow]

i wonder how many people are going to be clouded by nostalgia and not realise that Kaplan is basically admitting that this was his fault

[shrewd pivot]

the thing is, he doesn't even think he is admitting it. He doesn't realize how bad this interview makes him look.

his small team philosophy might work for him because it's "comfortable"(echo chamber, and less work to manage on his part) but he's not properly doing his job to actually manage and set up future success. fueled by ego.

all those people lost their jobs bc Kaplan was making these baffling choices

Kaplan says Overwatch League had good intentions, that is. false.

okay i feel for those 1000 people fired, the management failed them, shame on CFO Dennis Durkin for that cutthroat punishment and shame on Jeff Kaplan for leading them terribly.

[peak escarp]

I don't know how lore-relevant it is to rant about Jeff Kaplan

[shrewd pivot]

pardon, I'll only mention lore related aspects of the interview.

OHHHH the interview is bc jeff kaplan is making a new game. and he advertises it at the end of the interview
welp. that explains things

[crisp canyon]

2

Since we’re off topic in here alr let’s talk about how a cyberpunk collab is likely in the near future, and who would get what

Me personally I think Falco cass, Lucy Sombra, Kiwi Moira, Illari Rebekah, Maine Doom, Dorio Zarya, and idk who David would be there Isn’t anyone who fits him

[shrewd pivot]

david hazard lol

collabs have the collab owner chose which heros, so it's not lore based really

finished watching the interview.
welp. atleast we learned how overwatch got it's name ig. more specifics about Titan too.

i really wonder what the new team will do with overwatch bc an overwatch mmo would be nice to have one day, and i wonder if the "next 10 years" planned for overwatch story will integrate into an mmo or what

[crisp canyon]

I hate this idea mainly because hazards face is nowhere near David

The others could act strike resemblance

[untold zealot]

You could do david sombra

Js

Or tracer

@shrewd pivot

[shrewd pivot]

i jokingly say david bc of the beefed up form, looks like Hazard. Sombra already got Lucy cyberpunk-esque skin tbf
That said, i am hoping we get some "cyberpunk body modder" skins for hazard one day bc the phreaks have a lot of room for design creativity and i wish hazard push that design aspect more

[crisp canyon]

We just need young fit Latino character to be added for David

[brittle sky]

Oasis is massively hopeful. Just later writers focused on making it dystopic because nuance is icky.

[shrewd pivot]

i was in part referring to the Oasis ministries(ow2 tbf) and Oasis ai-minorty-report tower(ow1) so i think even in the beginning there was dystopian vibes.
I mean, he was talking visuals but still it's this idea there is a super science laws-free area that is dystopian for appearing like an "oasis"

[azure flint]

anran lore vid was cool

lowkey thought anran was gonna die and use her revive ult when she got tired or wtv

also nice to see zarya in action with ow

[past copper]

I mean, she clearly doesn't actually die to do that

Much like Mercy can't actually resurrect someone or how Hanzo's dragon doesn't actually kill

I guess from a logical perspective, Hanzo's dragon strike only draining a target makes sense

Leave your target too exhausted to defend themselves from your next attack

[keen summit]

david hazard or V hazard works well, hell make hazard a maelstrum member

[median orchid]

Make doomfist Adam Smasher

[meager geyser]

Lucy Kirko
Rebecca Juno
Kiwi Mercy
David Genji
Maine Reinhardt

[meager geyser]

It's sadly an Edgerunners collab

Not 2077 collab

So probably no V or Johnny

[visual field]

yup

[leaden swallow]

CYBERPEAK?????

Elden ring collab too

I need both

Ramattra Adam smasher skin and radahn sigma skin

I would explode

That’s not why I’m hear tho

Here

Holy

I’m cooked

Does anyone know if my boy sigma gonna get freed soon? Vendetta locked up a mentally disabled person. That’s not right

[civic lynx]

I’d assume he’ll be freed at some point during season 2-season 5

Sombra is keeping a close eye on him and talon so I think whenever there’s an opening for her to get him out she’ll do it

[leaden swallow]

Extremely rare sombra W

[keen summit]

my fav idea for them tho was emre, i forgot the name but his burst rifle works perfectly for one, siphon could be unity, then his ult instead has johnny

[meager geyser]

idea for who?

[crisp canyon]

Edge runners was better than 2077

[meager geyser]

Oh hell nahh

Edgerunners pacing was so bad

[crisp canyon]

As compared the game that spend maybe 4 hrs of gameplay in a prologue and unskippable cutscenes

Then getting maybe 2 hrs to do some quests and then I alr have the option to end the game

[crisp canyon]

What ab the pacing was bad?

[meager geyser]

God forbid a game has lots of content. You want to play it, or speedrun it?

[keen summit]

different

[keen summit]

edgerunners was great

[crisp canyon]

Lots of content shouldn’t be optional tbh in game like that

[keen summit]

2077 is amazing too, edgerunners is a great story that couldve been more. the pacing is off cuz its meant to kinda be off that it goes from 1 to 100

[keen summit]

this also isnt an issue

but lets keep it back to ow please

[peak escarp]

yet again I show up and Lore Discussion is not discussing lore

[keen summit]

happens

[peak escarp]

it seems to be happening a lot lately

[crisp canyon]

The most lore discussion happens is when someone has a question and it gets answer and they go thank you and don’t show up in here again

[keen summit]

think its a mix of lore getting more focus so talks start here and then it dgoes to other topics, my guess atleasr

[keen summit]

or powerscalers

where we have to explain a thousand times that we dont know what sigs limits are so we dont know

[crisp canyon]

Legit giving us one lore piece a week what else is there to say

[keen summit]

.... thats really good compared to most games mate

like

[meager geyser]

The show just too fast. There was no time to build up any characters. David has his change off screen and he's such a different person that you would thought that you would think month have passed when in reality it's like one and a half week. Idk how people were saying that they were crying at the ending. I didn't have time to get attached to these characters enough.

[keen summit]

thats kinda the point

[meager geyser]

I really liked edgerunners, but it could've been better

[meager geyser]

wdym?

[keen summit]

the point is to show how quickly it can just die out

how someone can go from just a rando to a legend and die

[keen summit]

btw where did you get that it only was a week

[peak escarp]

there's nothing wrong with the channel going quiet

[meager geyser]

I heared it on social media during a discussion. Tho maybe it isn't true

[crisp canyon]

They established David and the characters perfectly, I’m not gonna get into the details of it all but it would long post but they didn’t rush anything they gave you exactly what you needed

[peak escarp]

casual conversations should be taken to #general-discussion

[keen summit]

yeah i agree

[crisp canyon]

General discussion moves at the speed of light sometimes

[peak escarp]

the discussion channels are separate for a reason

[keen summit]

but most convos here are uhh, bots, powerscalers, confused people or just people who wanna ragebait

[crisp canyon]

Currently they’re talking ab covid not being real in Overwatch serious

[meager geyser]

That channel is just oversaturated. People can have 8 conversations at once. It's not as bad as #overwatch but still

[crisp canyon]

Viro lowkey the only one carrying lore discussion in here

[keen summit]

i prefer bringing lore discussion to overwatch serious

[crisp canyon]

Where would we talk ab covid not being real tho

[peak escarp]

more like dominating

[keen summit]

probs in an asylum.

[peak escarp]

why would covid not be real in Overwatch?

[crisp canyon]

That’s a question for the serious chatters

[keen summit]

thats an interesting but basically impossible question

what is an adjacent question, do omnics get "virusses"

[crisp canyon]

We need answers in how omnic human relationships work

[peak escarp]

Sombra infected the omnics of Numbani with a virus in The Hero of Numbani

[keen summit]

truth, we know they exist but like, how do we count it

[keen summit]

ah right fair

also how do we account for genders for omnics, do they just chose it or are they assigned one at manufacture?

[crisp canyon]

No daughter of mine will be dating a clanker

[peak escarp]

they seem to choose them

or not choose them, in the case of nonbinary omnics

[keen summit]

yeah i think so too, but then ram seems like the type to not like the idea of pronouns

cuz of his whole hating humanity as a culture or group

(not as in he'd be anti lgbtq)

[crisp canyon]

Jk Rowling Rammatra

[keen summit]

he actually is pretty considerate about pronouns

i think ram is one of the most mischaracterized chars in the game

for how the community sees him

[meager geyser]

I don't see how else could it work. Like imagine Anubis just looks at the manufacturing line of war machines he just created and goas: "Boy, boy, boy... Hmm... Girl! Boy, girl, girl... Idk, non-binary."

[peak escarp]

yeah

[crisp canyon]

There are non binary Omnics

[keen summit]

thing is certain omnics clearly have more "feminine" or "masculine" builds

not all seem like the types to mod themselves either

[crisp canyon]

Zen having a twink build

[peak escarp]

mass manufactured omnics likely don't have an assigned gender, unlike Echo and Orisa who were specifically made by their creators to act and appear female

[keen summit]

wasnt there also a motherly caretaker omnic in rams thing?

[crisp canyon]

Should Omnics really be non binary if they’re built on binary code

[keen summit]

yknow what six
im curious
who do you think is the most misunderstood or misrepresented hero in ow by the general community

[peak escarp]

besides the parts that look like hair, she doesn't look very feminine

[peak escarp]

Sigma

100%

[keen summit]

yeah i checked it aswell as was like yeah no that aint

[peak escarp]

everyone overhypes Sigma

[keen summit]

my vote goes to ram but sigma is there aswell yeah

as in people usually do get what sigma is about but people seem to overglaze his writing

[peak escarp]

they see him as this world-destroying god held back by his own brain

[keen summit]

ive been saying this in OWS aswell, we dont know what sig can do + his writing is overrated

[peak escarp]

if he snaps everyone dies

[keen summit]

sigma is one of those heroes where im like
concept good
writing as in consistency, great
writing in general, well hes just kinda there

[peak escarp]

when really, he's just a scientist with brain problems who can also manipulate gravity to some degree

[keen summit]

i keep having to explain that we have ONLY SEEN HIM LIFT SOME ROCKS

[peak escarp]

even Vendetta sees him as a weapon when I really don't think he's that dangerous

[crisp canyon]

But he creates black holes 🥸

[keen summit]

he doesnt

he did once, in a lab, which was controlled enough to not affect earth

when he was in space

[peak escarp]

half the community thinks Tracer can go back in time and that Zarya also creates black holes

[keen summit]

i also think people overglaze dooms strength alot too
lots are saying "well vendetta shouldnt even be able to defeat him at all!"
id argue theyre pretty close. its just the way doom lost that was bs but its so clearly a fakeout

[crisp canyon]

Doom fans when he’s 0-2 in lore

[keen summit]

vendetta v doom is basically a 1 touch fight if they both actively would want the best way to kill the other.
doom lands one punch vendetta is dead
vendetta when she cuts right once, doom is dead

[keen summit]

icl its very clear doom lost on purpose

[crisp canyon]

And he comes
Back as mf doom

[keen summit]

if doom actually fought well vendetta would need to just, cut him, but now vendetta could be pridefull and mimic how he killed her "kill"
they made a post with doom falling saying "see you next Fall"
what is in fall? blizzcon, where doom is the ow rep
we still dont know what the energy source they stole was for

basically its setting up blizzcon doom returns takes talon back

[crisp canyon]

Doom rework for blizzcon

[keen summit]

maybe, but could also be the catalyst for next arc

vendetta starting the seeds of global warfare when doom then goes "finally my war :)"

[crisp canyon]

What if they introduce someone picked up the gauntlet and it wasn’t doom

[keen summit]

vend wouldnt allow it

she keeps it in her base

she likes it as a prize it seems

vendetta is legit the embodiment of Pride

[crisp canyon]

Who’s to say a thief hacker wouldn’t want that for herself

[keen summit]

i dont really see a reason why sombra would help doom icl

[crisp canyon]

It wouldn’t be help him

[keen summit]

people are saying that, same with reaper and widow cuz they defected

[keen summit]

i also dont see a reason for sombra to want it icl

except for wanting to know what makes it strong

[peak escarp]

I don't think Doomfist lost on purpose

[crisp canyon]

Idk maybe she can learn something ab it or it’s a key point for the next arc if she isn’t really gonna be at play in this one

[peak escarp]

but I do think he underestimated her

he didn't take her seriously as a threat

[crisp canyon]

I agree

I don’t think doom is smart like that

[keen summit]

i do think that with all my reasons, the way he lost seemed to intentional. he couldve won if he didnt kick her instead of yknow punching

if they made him actually lose cuz he underestimated her it kinda hurts his character of being a mastermind a ton

[crisp canyon]

“And the next part of my plan vendetta will take the gauntlet and throw me from several stories high in the mountains”

[keen summit]

• itd go against his phislophy cuz vendetta is an embodiment of conflict makes you strong

[peak escarp]

Doomfist isn't really a mastermind though

[keen summit]

his title is litterally mastermind in game

i think they want him to be that in story

[peak escarp]

then they should write him that way

[keen summit]

i agree

[peak escarp]

what grand plans has he done besides breaking out of prison?

[keen summit]

he is implied and shown to be a mastermind mid combat, but then again decided to try and stationarily punch a rocket boosted angry monkey who leaped while running

[peak escarp]

my point exactly

[keen summit]

i think and hope for his character that the "plans" will converge into it cuz that makes the most sense rn

[peak escarp]

they might call him a mastermind, but he's kinda dumb

[keen summit]

icl both sides work

cuz if they wanna lean more into the whole smart side like with genji tracer fight parts, then him losing on purpose using vendettas pride, works
but he also underestimated a running monkey with rocket boost and a punch lined up for him

[crisp canyon]

I honestly didn’t even know that was his nickname

[keen summit]

doom is always meant to be a mastermind so i do hope theyll make the whole
starting a war (through vendettas pride in this case)
energy source (for better doomfist?)
letting vendetta run wild by faking his death

that would show him as actually kinda calculating + you could piece it together making it less of a copout

[peak escarp]

he's very... Saturday morning cartoon villain

[keen summit]

itd kinda break the entire illusion of him having very good battle skills above all else if he just went oh no i underestimated a lightsaber which has shown to be mega powerfull

[keen summit]

my issue is that dooms writing is so hit or miss icl

i think doom has alot of good parts in writing but then because the story stagnated for so long they just didnt know what to do so they made im just, there

[crisp canyon]

He also lost to horse

[peak escarp]

he didn't underestimate her weapon

he underestimated her

[keen summit]

thats fair tho

like

orisa is mad strong if you think about it

[crisp canyon]

Vendetta slays volskaya mechs?

[peak escarp]

why do people call her horse

[crisp canyon]

Centaur build, the galloping

[peak escarp]

she's not a horse, she an ox

[keen summit]

again im aware, but i still believe this feels really odd for such a "high battle iq" character

[peak escarp]

she's got horns

[keen summit]

its also shorter to say

[crisp canyon]

It’s just her community nickname

[peak escarp]

it's still dumb

[keen summit]

i think its cuz people just accompany horse more with females ig?

[crisp canyon]

Still need a horse skin for her

[keen summit]

ox usually people think instantly of like strong big man from what ive seen

[crisp canyon]

She also has horseshoes of sorts on her default

[peak escarp]

call her cow then

[keen summit]

true

[peak escarp]

it's shorter than horse

[keen summit]

it also doesnt help that she got that horse voiceline in ow2 tho

well kinda horse voiceline with hanzo

[crisp canyon]

They also took away the horns from her design in o2

[peak escarp]

although calling someone a cow is pretty rude

[keen summit]

yeah

[keen summit]

but icl this kinda makes sense cuz like if orisa lost to doom, what does she even exist for

basically tho my opinion on doom is that he has really good writing MOMENTS
but was held back by the whole, story didnt really move for a while so they just, didnt know what to do with him

so instead of yknow, doom getting to do plans n stuff we just got him.. asking for an energy source but we still dont know what he needs it for. sending people on missions, but whats the reason wheres his war?

[crisp canyon]

Given new light on the situation we can blame dooms inn activity on owl

[keen summit]

so i hope for the writers that they didnt legit make him just underestimate vendetta this much and that he actually planned it, though maybe that he did underestimate her in that he didnt expect her to cut his doomfist off

[crisp canyon]

We can blame everything on owl

Except for team eternal cause gotta rep the country 🇫🇷

[meager geyser]

We haven't seen Akande win a single fight outside of defeating the old Doomfist.
He lost to Winston
He lost to Orisa
And now he lost to Vendetta
Doomfist is a powerful character that exists only to show that there are other powerful characters in this universe

[wise grotto]

The first example he also dogged the fuck out of tracer and genji in the same fight

[meager geyser]

Yeah, the fact that it took three people to barley take him down is impressive

But like

He still lost 😭

My point stends

[crisp canyon]

Is tracer really a feat

Widow also beat her

[meager geyser]

She didn't beat her

She tricked her

And run away

Subtle difference

[crisp canyon]

I would say that’s still beating if she accomplished her mission

Tracer lost

[wise grotto]

Well when your talking about winning and nearly killing her vs shooting someone else and tricking the person

These aren’t comparable

These aren’t the same kinda feats

Widow didn’t without looking rip tracers life saving technology off her chest while she’s teleporting around widow

[crisp canyon]

I fear this is still winning in both circumstances

Tracer was going to have that happen in the widow situation if she didn’t recall

Widow was going to get a kill no matter what with that shot it’s not like she mistakenly hit mondatta, she had them lined up perfectly

[wise grotto]

I mean regardless
They are not comparable feats

Just
Objectively
Ripping tracers thing out while she’s teleporting around without looking takes far more skill then tricking someone into making a decision to dodge or die

Doom didn’t leave a decision to be made

It was just done

[crisp canyon]

Its not ab skill tho its ab winning and thats what they both did

[wise grotto]

When your talking about who won a fight This scenario does matter
Widow wouodnt hsve actually managed to shoot traver because she could travel back there
Widows situation left traver with a choice lose the fight or don’t
Widow killed someone seperate that is not the same as what doom did

[crisp canyon]

It wouldn’t make any sense to compare skills of widow and doom because they’re based entirely in different things widow cannot just grab tracer with one arm and doom cannot snipe and calculate a shit like widow

[wise grotto]

This is like comparing someone dodging a dodgeball and it hits the person behind them to /someone getting shot with a cannon ball

One of these is actually beating the person the other one is avoiding the direct fight to finish a task

[crisp canyon]

Did tracer accomplish anything she set out do against widow?

If not that’s a loss for her

[wise grotto]

Your argument started with using the widow tracer thing to put down the doom tracer thing cause “is it really that impressive”
And yea objectively it’s that impressive to win a fight against tracer without even looking at her

Widows wasn’t a winning a fight
The FIGHT part is what makes these different

[crisp canyon]

Yes because what have we been shown that tracer is actually an impressive threat?

[wise grotto]

The goal of one situation was to win a fight the other was to prevent something from happening

[crisp canyon]

They literally fought

[wise grotto]

Do you conceptually understand how hard it would be for someone to pull that off

[crisp canyon]

Realistically yes in the world of overwatch where tracer has no real accomplishments in feat no

[wise grotto]

The goal was not for them to beat the other or kill
Doom against those three that was the entire goal of both sides was to beat the other

[crisp canyon]

Tracer wasn’t trying to beat widow?

[wise grotto]

Tracer can dodge bullets being able to catch and grab the mf who dodges bullets is objectively impressive

[crisp canyon]

Tracer also went down to venom mine

[wise grotto]

She also dodged a bullet which her speed would he like literally everything about how impressive catching her would be about

[crisp canyon]

There isn’t anything ab tracer i believe you can bring up that makes her impressive combativley other than she’s just fast and you believe she is

[wise grotto]

Your choosing to focus on as many things to argue against instead of the super simple part that explains for

Believe she is she literally teleports
Instantly in bursts
You objectively can’t move faster then teleporting from point a to point b instantly

[crisp canyon]

She saw widow 3 feet away from her line up a shot at her pulse and recalled

[wise grotto]

There’s also the funniest part about that fight is genji who’s got massive feats and he made genji look even weaker in the same fight

And you can’t even make any bad faith arguments against genji

[crisp canyon]

I’m not talking ab Genji it’s ab tracer why r we pivoting?

[wise grotto]

You started comparing non comparable feats from the start

[crisp canyon]

Genji would be more impressive because he’s trained his whole life to fight, came back from the dead and learned among monks and blackwatch redirected hanzo strike there’s much more you can say ab him than tracer lol

[crisp canyon]

They literally both beat tracer, and you made it ab the skills of them both

[wise grotto]

You brought up. A situation that is so significantly different in context and evrry other way
Just to put down how impressive it is what doom did to tracer

How am I not supposed to compare the things when brought up as a comparison

[crisp canyon]

Because there’s nothing that has happened with tracer to make it seem like she’s some combative expert at using her abilities that’s insanely hard to outsmart which is was what doom and widow did to win

They fought and she lost both

[wise grotto]

And these are barely comparable aside from wording on what the outcome was

Like there are so many factors that make these very different contexts and situations

No matter how tracer lost her last fight if you watch what was happening with her vs doom the amount of speed it would take to do that without looking

Is what makes it an impressive feat

[crisp canyon]

Tracer would be 0-3 if that kid didn’t pick up dooms gauntlet in a museum

[wise grotto]

One could say the same about widow being 0-2 if mondatta wasn’t involved in the fight entirely

[crisp canyon]

If mondatta wasn’t involved she wouldn’t have been there 😭 what r u even saying

[crisp canyon]

Also saying doom wasn’t even looking is a stretch I just watched that back, she was going in a complete circle (clockwise) around him and he was calculating her movement by looking at her and put his arm out to where she was jumping to next

[boreal oxide]

mondatta

[shrewd pivot]

For reference:
Bull is male
Ox/Oxen is neutered male used for work animals
Cow is female

Orisa is a centaur trope, centaurs are horse + human hybrids

Orisa has "split hooves" so she is not a horse,

Orisa would be based on African Animals, a Water Buffalo (iconic animal symbol + one of the most deadly animals in africa) is more so how I see Orisa imo, Sturdy.

[boreal oxide]

got kirked

[shrewd pivot]

Mondatta was nothing like that.

For Doomfist, his writing was poorly implemented but I think he was intended as a "Saturday morning cartoon + fighter game villain" in the sense that his villain philosophy is outlandish but his strategy skills is what makes him ruthless. Dambe is a hardcore martial art, and takes live time tactics to pull off. Doomfist shows that off well.

He def is misguided, but I found his character to atleast be a fun villain to pit against others, as his philosophy had him negotiating to show off philosophy to the audience.

Doomfist is a campy villain just like Reaper is a campy villain imo.

Sigma def is a reasonable "weapon" to keep imo. Even if he can only float small objects, it's still potentially lethal in a way unlike others.

Sigma has "in theory" potential for destruction similar to Illari's powers imo.

Honestly though after seeing the interview I have to wonder how much of character design was coincidence and how much was vaguely slapped together.

Like, Cassidy FEELS like spaghetti western cowboy movie refs. That's intentional, surely.

But now I wonder if Doomfist's kit is actually based on Dambe rules or not. Because it DOES match up with aspects of Dambe martial arts (his ult sending him to the sky, impossible to "kill" aka win a point against him in Dambe, and Orisa's new ult grants a "kill" aka point in Dambe, Dambe fighters earn points by knocking the opponent to the ground)

Surely, there's actual lovingly crafted character designs right it's not all just coincidence like the name Overwatch was, right.

Like, Domina for example has storytelling in her kit design. Hoping that sort of thing continues to be seen

[pastel stirrup]

tracer has beaten genji in sparring sessions
see uprising comic

she also solo'd like a dozen+ king's row omnics all shooting at her simultaneously in london calling issue 1

[flint thicket]

I am looking forward to what lore we are getting for season 3.

[pastel stirrup]

even ignoring both of these tho, malkk's way of judging a character's power level is just really flawed because it seems to rely almost entirely on a character's feats, and not enough on common sense and basic deductive reasoning

[crisp canyon]

Sparring is key there

[crisp canyon]

The fast superpowered character took down street level goons

[crisp canyon]

What exactly is common sense and basic deductive reasoning I’m lacking here, it seems more like ur trying to power scale on assumption rather just what’s been shown, she’s stronger than omnic goons but weaker than doom and widow none of this would not contradict each other

[shrewd pivot]

Again, powerscaling isn't really applicable to Overwatch. Overwatch uses characters to tell a story. Tracer losing to Widowmaker is a story moment, because in theory Tracer could easily defeat Widowmaker with her time blips.

Not taking sides here, just. Powerscaling doesn't really work with Overwatch

[meager geyser]

Tbf Overwatch never had deep and creative villains.

Talon is just a terrorist organisation that doesn't have any actual goal outside of being evil and Vishkar is just an Evil CorporationTM

Rammatra was very interesting, but he got retconed out of the story

I'm interested about this whole "eye conspiracy" tho

[brittle sky]

i wouldn't call him retconnined. Just story edits cut his pve event short and they're clearly focusing elsewhere for at least the foreceable part of 2026

Talon I think doesn't have unified goals because it was just like a wework for individual villain goals (Doomfist wants chaos and conflict to strengthen humanity against existential threats, moira wants to advance humans scientifically/biologically at all costs, reaper wants to enact some vague sense of true justice), but suffers from the fact they didn't focus on that many councillors, and the default for councillors was just 'get money and power'

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah overwatch is more so "campy" villains (JQ and Widowmaker and Reaper for example)

but Ramattra is a favorite antagonist of mine, omnic lore tends to have a bit if heart to it imo. Ramattra was pushed under the rug for later, not per se retconned like Coarse stated.

[shrewd pivot]

Same here!!! Very excited to see Emre plotline unfold.

[meager geyser]

I don't consider Junker Queen to be even an antagonist and totally not a villain

If "the eye" will also turn out to be "HAHA! It's too late overwatch! We have successfully conquered the world without anyone noticing and there is NOTHING you can do about it! Every world leader is under OUR control! Now if you excuse me, I have to go back to my villain lair to plot in the shadows. Emre! Finnish them!" I will loose faith of ever getting a good overwatch villain.

[brittle sky]

Junker Queen is 100% an antagonist, and arguably the most villainous playable character

Her entire point is to set her up as an antagonist to Roadhog and Junkrat, who while not heroes themselves are placed more protagonistically, and she by contrast is the tyrant who embodies the corruption of Junker society. Just because she's inconsistent with being antagonistic due to how mercurial she is and she had a cinematic starring her does not make her not an antagonist.

As for villainy, she is a warlord who bullies every person beneath her, laughs at the idea that her rule means she owes junker society any goods or services, and prioritizes her number one rule and apparent motive as massacring a minority population of sapient life.

Just becuase she's often played for laughs and 10 years ago could talk about being a slightly less corrupt leader than the previous junker ruler does not erase that.

[cosmic crest]

She is not, lmao

[brittle sky]

She really is. Like in terms of impact she definitely has not done the most harm, but given equivalent powers, she is the character that would do the most harm, with like... maybe only Vendetta coming close? Even Vendetta doesn't seem interested in a genocide.

Which is what Junker Queen would do, given absolute power. Genocide and then oppress everyone else to her personal whim.

[shrewd pivot]

She really is one of the most evil villains. She is madmax, fully anti omnic across the board, cut throat survivalist willing to kill anyone who betrays her rule.
Odessa Stone is named after Odysseus, who led like 600 men crew to thier deaths just so Odysseus could return to his family.

JunkerQueen is very much "Greek hero" in the sense that a "hero" in Greek mythos is not a noble good guy, just someone who survives great trials.

Her core motivations are basically directly genocidal, definitely evil villain

[crisp canyon]

Junker Queen would solo doom

[brittle sky]

not talking powerscaling here

[crisp canyon]

I’m not either

[brittle sky]

then you may need to clarify the context and meaning of 'x solos y'

[past copper]

Here's a clarification. If Mauga beats Junker Queen, then you know Doomfist would beat her

[pastel stirrup]

?
it's still a fight
if the lore instead showed genji beating her in the sparring session you would 100% use that as evidence for why she's weak

[pastel stirrup]

^^

[crisp canyon]

No because it’s sparring, no one wins in a spar really, do I go into training room on the game and say I’m winning cause I killed a bot

[pastel stirrup]

how is this equivalent to genji and tracer practising fighting each other

[crisp canyon]

What viro said theoretically tracer would beat countless ppl with her abilities but that’s clearly not the case time after time

[crisp canyon]

Because it’s practice u just said so urself?

[pastel stirrup]

do you practise against fourth graders in basketball if you're a d1 athlete

[crisp canyon]

No but they practice against ppl who also aren’t d1

[pastel stirrup]

ur making a baseless assumption that tracer is far weaker than genji based on nothing but feats

just like u think tracer would lose if not for the kid at the museum lol

[crisp canyon]

That wouldn’t be baseless then

[crisp canyon]

Quite literally were losing until that happened

[pastel stirrup]

how does tracer losing to widow and doom (who genji also lost to) make her far weaker

than genji

[crisp canyon]

Do you know Genji lore?

[pastel stirrup]

yes i know genji lore

[crisp canyon]

If u do this would be self explanatory

[pastel stirrup]

no it isn't, as far as i know he lost to hanzo
just some dude with a sword xd
he's weak asf

what feats does genji have that make u think he's stronger than specifically tracer

[crisp canyon]

Redirecting hanzos dragon strike and defeating him, training under zen, being enlisted for blackwatch etc tracer is literally pilot who got time cursed and then became an agent

[pastel stirrup]

what about beating hanzo makes him stronger than tracer?

or training under zen

or being enlisted for blackwatch

[crisp canyon]

U just said urself Hanzo is stronger than Genji even if ur trolling, ur not making a gotcha argument there’s more to state genjis battle prowess than tracer

[pastel stirrup]

"more feats = stronger character"

classic power scaler L

[crisp canyon]

I mean yes? That’s typically how it works

[crisp canyon]

U trying to make a case for tracer but haven’t mentioned anything ab her actual being that good which i think is pretty telling of this all

[shrewd pivot]

Tracer's time powers theoretically give Tracer the edge to beat any cyborg human in a fight.

Genji is a trained assasin.

Tracer was "beaten" by Widowmaker in the cinematic when Widowmaker killed Mondatta.

Widowmaker is a trained assassin.

Again, it fully depends on context of the situation for the fight, you cannot say for certain if Genji could always beat tracer or if Tracer could always beat Genji. In some situations Genji would win, and in some situations Tracer would win.

[pastel stirrup]

ur just biased abt what you consider battle prowess because i give u uprising and u say 'doesn't count'

but then somehow 'training under zen' counts as points for genji

unreal

[crisp canyon]

U didn’t give me uprisings you named a comic where she fights street level goons and said that was proof enough

[crisp canyon]

It’s really not unreal

[pastel stirrup]

i gave u 'uprising' the comic in which we see her beat genji

[crisp canyon]

Isn’t it called London calling or something