lore-discussion

[little elbow]

BRB

[shrewd pivot]

I'm still messed up about 13% of humanity gone being the deaths prior to Overwatch starting... (I had forgotten the context of the 13%) Assuming ow1 is 2077 and ow2 is 2079 (or atleast 2070s), depending how many days into the crisis the 13% was, by the end of the crisis (it lasted 2 years) it could have easily doubled to 25%+ of the global population in 2050s, gone.

:( that's more % than the global deaths from the bubonic plague... dang...

9-10 billion is the estimate for global population in 2050, so 25% of 9-10 billion is around 2.25-2.5 billion gone... yeesh

[little elbow]

Wanna go into a VC and talk lore

[shrewd pivot]

I can :o

[little elbow]

Gonna mess around with Emre and see if I can get some new voice lines

[shrewd pivot]

Which vc?

[little elbow]

Looks like they are all full 🙁

Opp gotta go

Sry

[shrewd pivot]

Ur good

[broken eagle]

image Freja's reaction when she sees someone she looked for years just for them to fuse with a force controling them

[slow timber]

in the lore who is the richest

[wise grotto]

Maximillian or domina for named characters

[brittle sky]

Torb is a sleeper here too. Man sits on a massive sum of patents and a venerable career as a legendary engineer.

[wise grotto]

While yea he’s not a made out of money corporate overlord money bags
Or moneybags McGee Maximillian

[ancient stag]

Luciooooooooo

[edgy meadow]

predictions for cat lore tomorrow

[azure flint]

idk

would like more mizuki lore actually

[brittle sky]

That's what, week 4?

[spark mica]

Okay not trying to sound stupid

but why is Vishkar not that good of an company again

hello?

[queen spear]

they fund wars etc so they can rebuild cities in their design afterwards

basically corrupt and gentrification

they made a deal with vendetta that they have full construction rights for anything talon destroys for example

and they stole lucios technology without paying him anything etc

[spark mica]

Damn these guys are assholes

the only reason why i thought not is from the one interaction with zen

[spare fox]

Their original founder and creator of hard light who died in a car "accident" had a more generous, humanitarian view of how hia hard light tech would be used

[spark mica]

like how OW (I think) Saw Echo should be used as her own instead of just a weapon

Also another thing

I like how Lucio can casually ask someone who had sent an army to rio whats his faveorite animal

BUT

When it comes to domina SHE has to ask

wow

[keen osprey]

Wait I just found out Ana may have joined back the overwatch team?

based on lore, Ana Amari may have officially returned to the Overwatch fold effectively rejoining the new team led by Winston, though her reintegration has been quiet.

The Lost Ghosts Transition (Late 2024): In the Lost Ghosts short story (September 2024), Ana explicitly tells Soldier: 76 (Jack) that his vengeful path is a "haunting" waste of time and that she intends to do more than just fight ghosts. She leaves him to pursue his vendetta alone, signaling her return to a proactive, protective role.

The Together Comic (Christmas 2024): Ana is seen returning to Watchpoint: Gibraltar in the Together comic. She is present for the Christmas gathering with Winston, Tracer, and others, confirming her alignment with the new Overwatch.
Where she also says to Pharah "It's good to be here, Habibti..."

she has been largely sidelined tho.

in the Together comic, she is shown to have returned but she is not currently acting as a central leader or "strike commander" like in the old days. She has rejoined to support them, but for now, she is a supporting character in the broader story rather than the main focus.

so Ana is back with the team, but she has shifted from being a "haunted soldier" to a mentor/supporting figure in the new Overwatch structure?

---

Also who agrees that because of those new interactions Soldier, Sombra and Illari will all form together to go against the Conspiracy. And maybe free Sigma too.
Also thanks to some interactions between Sombra and Venture they might join as well

If anyone wants the links of those interactions lmk

And i was unaware Zenyatta doesn't align with Shambali anymore, i though he still was with it full time

And did anyone else notice the mission under Talon side in the upcoming event called "Junkrat" with the description being "The Junkers are known to wreak mayhem. We can use this to our advantage"

[shrewd pivot]

Tbf iirc the ironclad patents are made available world wide to use (freely? Affordably?), and Torbjörn would be getting money from Ironclad to continue his work, also Ingrid's inventions probably brings in money too. He has many kids, and lots of tech, so I imagine he has a good amounts of income to support that

[shrewd pivot]

Ana feels like she might not be an official active overwatch member anymore, just a retired agent that still supports from the sidelines if I understand correctly?

[keen osprey]

seems like she is part of the group but isn't acting as an agent?

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, it is notable that Zenyatta is an ex-monk, both Zenyatta and Ramattra disagree with Mondatta's dogmatic pacifist approaches.

[keen osprey]

Yeah! I was new to this part of lore of his, thats cool

[shrewd pivot]

Zenyatta was inspired to become a traveling guru after Zenyatta's experience with Genji.

Zenyatta rejects dogmatic pacifism, and Zenyatta is focused on interpersonal connections (traveling guru, has helped Symmetra for example) while using force where necessary to protect innocents (Zenyatta can beat genji in spars).

[keen osprey]

Yeah! Okay then what I had in mind aligns with this

[shrewd pivot]

Also, just obligatory mention: Ramattra, Zenyatta, and Mondatta are platonic only in canon. Official writer joked about Mondatta, Ramattra, Zenyatta, and Genji being like Malcolm in the middle (blood brothers) so I'd like to imagine a writer wouldn't compare lovers characters to blood brothers lol, so Ramattra and Zenyatta are platonic.

For Ana, I think it we will have to see how she interacts in the end, but maybe it's something similar to Torbjörn in PVE retiring but still being supportive?

[keen osprey]

WHO WOULD SHIP THEM

i fear somebody

bro is like shipping genji and hanzo

[keen osprey]

yeah! i guess so, we will wait and see

[shrewd pivot]

😭 most of the Ramattra fandom unfortunately... and many overwatch lore accounts are Ram x Zen shippers... it's hard to be a fan of canon Ramattra when most of the fandom flanderizes Ramattra as "Mecha-||Hitler||" or ships Ramattra with his canon platonic only brother...

[keen osprey]

💀 💀 💀

Ramattra x D.va is the way to go

Zenyatta x Myself

[shrewd pivot]

I compare Zenyatta and Ramattra, to something like Genji and Kiriko. Not biologically related, but still platonic only found family in canon

[keen osprey]

yeaaah toooo

[shrewd pivot]

Shipping isn't canon anyways, so we can discuss something canon related haha

[spare fox]

my dude you are taking it way too seriously... and how the fandom is right now is NOTHING like how bad it was back in 2015-17.. those were WARS. Just let people ship and if you don't like it, move on. They're fictional characters

[keen osprey]

SOOKY I HAVE QUESTIONS

SPOOKY*

I am back to annoy you

[spare fox]

ok

[keen osprey]

peak

[spare fox]

you're not annoying you're asking legit questions

[keen osprey]

can u read all this and next messages and tell me if it aligns with you

[spare fox]

yeahhh I just don't know atp I'm right there with you. I can say - obviously - that Ana's views more or less are going to align with Overwatch, BUT not sure what she's "officially" doing

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, I know. I would be 100% fine if people actually tagged content so i could effectively block content, but they don't and I get flashbanged by untagged content constantly and my OCD has triggers so lol, it's understandably annoying. Tagging is an accessibility feature, not a 'politeness', I Wish fandom ppl understood that...

I was a fan in 2015-2017, trust me, I remember the days WidowmakerxTracer fans wanted that ship to be canon LOL thankfully we have Tracer x Emily instead as canon.

[keen osprey]

Okay!! tysm :)

cant wait to know more about Symmetra her interaction with Kiriko gets me excited

• Kiri: With a boss like yours. No wonder your company's so explotiative.

• Sym: Not all employees share her values.

• Kiri: Okay. What are yours?

• Sym: They are still a work in progress.

🙏

I also need to know abt Mauga and Junkers

and what will happen with Sigma

[spare fox]

mannnnnn the Talon/Junkrat story pt though! I know obv that Vendetta is going after the junkers as allies BUT like... I specifically want Junkrat in Overwatch 😭

[keen osprey]

omg i cant wait this much i rather cry

[keen osprey]

YEAHHH THATS SUCH A SAD NEWS.

I HOPE SOMETHING HAPPENS

[spare fox]

I THINK that Sym still stands FIRMLY with Vishkar's founder's message. She legit thinks a big company's resources CAN make a difference BUT she diverges with them on what they're doing. BUT she doesn't want to jump ship because that would be "throwing the baby out with the bath water" - I think I want her to rise in Vishkar's company and change its course to truly make a difference with Vishkar's resources

[digital linden]

do you think we’ll ever discover who the leader of the conspiracy is? i feel like it’s not chernobog, they’re more just being used by them

[spare fox]

rather than just leaving them because on principal, then how can she help people with her talents?

[shrewd pivot]

Would overwatch accept Junkrat as a member...? Like yeah Baptiste and Cassidy who did bad things were recruited but Junkrat is a global heist terrorist (as in, terrorist for funsies) and overtly anti-omnic

[digital linden]

but i also imagine it being a council system

[keen osprey]

yessss omg i so agree with this

[keen osprey]

true! but

we also hear new voicelines with lifeweaver

where they both say they work really well togheter

so maaaybe?

[spare fox]

YES they do BUT the difference between LW and Sym is that Sym came from literally nothing. Vishkar is EVERYTHING to her. LW having the ability to leave is a privilege she doesn't have... and she knows that Vishkar's tools and money CAN do some good. She doesn't want to leave - in my opinion - because she believes she would do more good attempting to right the ship, rather than just abandoning it

that's what I theorize she's going to want to do

I think just up and leaving with LW would be weak

[shrewd pivot]

I think that story would be interesting. At the same time, if Symmetra becomes VP or CEO and acts as like "oh Vishkar is now good bc Symmetra is leading :)" that plot direction ignores the fact Vishkar doesn't need a "good king" -- it needs to get rid of the system that allows bad kings to exist, and Symmetra leading doesn't fix that.

I wouldn't mind if Symmetra works up the ranks but I honestly think she could do her best work at the Atlantic Arcology, out of Vishkar's toxic enviorment and acting as an ambassador to help guide Vishkar/start a system that keeps Vishkar in check long term

[spare fox]

the only real clue I have is that there's a voiceline with Domina (I think?) that mentions how the shareholders adore Symmetra

and the fact that Symmetra has actual real talent with hard light

[keen osprey]

in Symmetra we trust😭 🙏

[spare fox]

I personally think Symmetra's journey is going to be more about finding her voice and learning to lead and speak up

[keen osprey]

yeaaaa

and my poor baby sigma

[spare fox]

not that it's going to be easy - esp w Domina and Sanjay

[keen osprey]

please sombra save him already i cant look at him like that

who picked Talon is an opp

dont talk to me

[spare fox]

i picked OW first and once I finished I did Talon just to see the story bits there

[keen osprey]

samee

but now im back in ow

i aint giving up on big winton

even tho im Italian

and vendetta makes me proud

but i kinda hate her

She gonna be Ceasar 2.0

she gonna have everything and then loose it all

the fate of italians

[shrewd pivot]

Ig I just hope Symmetra's story is more nuanced, bc Symmetra was forced to mask her entire life by Vishkar, that is very traumatic for autistic people to do. I would hope Symmetra gets to eventually have a space she can feel safe in and decompress, then go back to doing her work, so a double agent against Vishkar fits that, lets her meet up with Lifeweaver.

Ig it's bc Vishkar's whole profiting comes from monetizing destruction, so creating more work opportunity is a financial motive, which explains Domina's alliance with Vendetta.

The Ironclad on the other hand, make patents free. I don't think Vishkar's corporate structure of "rebuilding for profit" should last bc it is oppressive, it should go into free patents of hardlight technology to help the world (fits the creator's wishes) or atleast become an open educator of Vishkar architects to support new technology advancements without a hard profit motive (maybe Vishkar works with abassadors and sponsorships to keep Vishkar in check).

[spare fox]

again, for your last point, there have been LW-Sym interactions about Bhatt, the founder of Vishkar

so she is aware of his original mission

it's kind of analagous a little bit to Blizzard lol

not that Blizzard-MS isn't a huge company for-profit but it deviated from its original mission, then it was righted again and thrived

[keen osprey]

Spooky i dm you one second again!

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Symmetra will def uncover the truth! (I bet there will be some big reveals that impact Domina too)
My main point was that I hope the plot doesn't turn into "and Vishkar finally has a good king, the end :)" as if that solves any actual systemic issues Vishkar has by profting off of destruction.

[spare fox]

ok but my point is that Sym could do more good by gaining a leadership role at Vishkar and putting an end to Vishkar's problematic practices - and actually doing some good - rather than just leaving Vishkar and simultaneously allowing them to continue their destruction-for-profit AND losing every resource she has to do any good for the world, which is her goal

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I get that! She shouldn't just leave to let Vishkar fester.

I personally wouldn't want Symmetra's story to be purely in Vishkar, I think her being a double agent (working up the ranks to uncover the corruption) and then being a whistleblower (after she uncovers the real truth about the creator's death, after she gets up the ranks to record the corruption) would be a good way to get Vishkar to change. The issue with Vishkar is oppressive hierarchy + a financial incentive to find more destruction to rebuild.

Vishkar doesn't need a good person as a leader (bc who leads after Symmetra? That still allows for corruption), it needs a long lasting system that keeps Vishkar in check-- be it a shift in financial incentive away from monetizing destruction, or a collaboration with abassadors/sponsorships that help prevent that runaway "destruction for profit" issue that Domina is currently showcasing

[spare fox]

that just leads to "who keeps that 'system' in check"?

[shrewd pivot]

Og overwatch handled such topics of corrupt systems with good intentioned people leading to collapse, so I hope the writing for Vishkar doesn't end up being flat

[spare fox]

and then that lead to OW having too much power and influence and then it fell

[shrewd pivot]

Shifting Vishkar's financial incentive away from destruction for profit would be a way to help mitigate long term corruption, atleast. If that core systemic issue in Vishkar is not even touched upon that would be ignoring the elephant in the room lol -- Ironclad lore directly deals with such topics, so it would be odd not to do the same with Vishkar in some way

[shrewd pivot]

Right. So Symmetra's story being basically that, would do her character writing a disservice imo. She wouldn't actually be helping people long term, she would just be a "good king" deal

I had discussions with others here that made me realize Symmetra's story DOES do best when she doesn't completely flee Vishkar, so I think the best way to keep Symmetra's hero fantasy as a "sabotuer agent" is her going from sabotaging Vishkar competition (being a part of Vishkar corruption), to her sabotaging Vishkar's corruption as a double agent (rejecting Vishkar corruption). A whistleblower Symmetra arc would be very dramatic and fun to witness imo

[shrewd pivot]

Also also, I was looking through Yokai related to bad luck and honestly...? I am suprised Mizuki wasn't in the end based on a nekomatta "or that seven generations would be cursed due to killing a cat, it is thought that the legend of the nekomata was born."

Mizuki also comes from the Hashimoto, white tigers. A black cat nekomatta theme (unlucky, death motifs, transforms into a human, twin tails) would have fit Mizuki well, especially since black cats in Japan are lucky symbols. Hm

He currently has a Kappa motif (Kappa drown people/horses, in mythos a Kappa gets it's arm cut off, and now indebted the Kappa does labor or provides medicine. Mizuki has a shell like hat, chains people down, provides support, and is indebted to the Hashimoto with a 'missing arm' gauntlet or prosthetic arm)

[bitter relic]

Im interested in watching ow lore but dont know where the hell should I start

[merry mason]

Sort by oldest on Overwatch’s lore playlist on YouTube

That’s how we watched the lore

[shrewd pivot]

The youtuber "Hammeh" has good lore videoes

[bitter relic]

How could vendetta beat doom with his fist

Like isnt it the strongest weapon in the world or something

[merry mason]

Well I guess not

[wise grotto]

I mean doomfist hs lost to. Robot built to beat him it’s not unreasonable to think both 10 years of training and doomfist going “losing here causes more chaos and war which means more people adapting to conflict”

[fathom grove]

Didn't doom basically do nothing for like 10 years or smth, isn't that also part of it?

[edgy meadow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/395993166878343169/1460268108114825450/image0.gif

[spare fox]

doom was complacent and Vendetta trained and worked her way up fighting

keep in mind that just because the Doomfist gauntlet is the most powerful weapon, it's not an "I win button"

[edgy meadow]

doom just didnt see her as a threat when he should have

[spare fox]

after all, Doomfist lost to an upgraded security drone/droid (Orisa) and the power of music and friendship, too

[edgy meadow]

he barely wanted to have a council meeting about vendetta

btw for anyone curious i finally found a comprehensive video of all the new interactions (excluding those of the new characters) https://youtu.be/nabx5QLVCrc?si=dTGGWwXXyfyu0X6W

theres quite a lot of new stuff

[median crane]

add BABYCREAM#2945 if plat or gold. Need one

[brittle sky]

Doom basically backed the entire Null Crisis, and he's only been out of prison ~2 years in game. Any claims he's been doing nothing is just projecting the game's inertia onto him.

[fathom grove]

Fair enough true true

[fathom grove]

Now that you mention it good point he's lost to a lot sillier than Vendetta actually lol

I mean I never minded him losing to Vendetta like most people did but im glad to see people are actually committed to making a good case for why he lost that

[brittle sky]

I don't mind him losing the immediate fight (physical altercations are not strictly numeric matchups, power scaling is incredibly silly, etc.), but I do think the time table, minimal legwork leading up to it, and insistence on Vendetta's invincibility and resulting lack of real friction in the narrative present make her larger rise to take over the faction a little incredible. As in, not fully narratively credible.

She showed up, wanted to fight Doom with a sword, Max pointed out she needed to do more than fight Doom with a sword, she did exactly one of the things he mentioned, then she fought Doom with a sword and it worked.

[edgy meadow]

not without consequence

if she was more willing to be diplomatic sombra and widow might not have left the organization

i do agree that her being a recent addition does mean there isnt enough legwork for this sort of shift

but i think its coherent narratively

and notably i think theyre doing a good job comparing and contrasting vendetta's and doomfist's mentallity as leaders

doomfist lost bc his ego got in the way of his ability to assess the threat, and with how inflammatory vendetta's actions are, she might eventually begin to face the same problems

[pure solar]

Are Emre and Freja doing it on the dl ooooorrrr

[edgy meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/shut-up-shush-shh-ok-bird-gif-17679708

[sand veldt]

So what’s the lore behind Mizuki?

[brittle sky]

I would have appreciated a little more establishing the state of Talon for us to read more into Doom's oversight beyond him saying 'this could have been an email' in the cinematic. Also to convince us that the Talon-Null Sector alliance was actually a bad look, as opposed to exactly the sort of thing Doom would have wanted (which it really seems like given how it went down thanks to the aborted pve).

Like ideally I think give us Vendetta in Freja's slot, have us sit with her campaign against Talon in the background across the previous year. Let us sit in the status quo and feel it out before immediately overturning it.

[brittle sky]

Comes from a very unlucky family with the (likely somewhat self-fulfilling) notion they're cursed, his last family member got super in debt before his own demise to the Hashimoto clan (the rival Ninja/Yakuza crime family to the Shimada who run the Japanese underworld since the Shimada's fall), Mizuki got taken in as a ward to pay off hsi family's debts and trained as their agent. Sent to infiltrate the Yokai, Kiriko's group of teen rebels fighting agains the Hashimoto, and has very mixed feelings about betraying a group of cool teens.

Also met Kiriko's dad (the guy making all the seemingly magical weapons, currently a captive of the Hashimoto) and his sickle and its weird powers come from him.

[sand veldt]

Do the shimada brothers know about him?

[sand veldt]

Hope they keep it as mysteriously magic powers and don’t hit us with the “hard light”

[brittle sky]

Hanzo has met him during his ongoing work with the Yokai, and is described as not trusting him, but neither know of his ties to the Hashimoto.

[brittle sky]

It's been described as 'Anima' material, so it will likely be described as something other than magic, and not described as vaguely hard light. How soft the sci fi gets is yet to be seen, but they're definitely making room for it to be techn, not actual magic.

[sand veldt]

Damn

[brittle sky]

I mean, 'Japan just has magic' would be a pretty weird bit of worldbuilding.

[sand veldt]

I mean we already have dragons and ninja fox girls

[edgy meadow]

thats a valid point, but its also where I understand their desire to not linger in the status quo any longer than we already have in the last several years

[brittle sky]

Sure, we have all sorts of anachronistic trappings and very soft sci fi, but it's not like we go 'and reinhardt is powered by the holy grail' or 'and then cassidy summons custer's ghost to high noon the enemy'

[brittle sky]

Sure, that's why I said swap her out within the time table we already had, not extend the runway.

[sand veldt]

Honestly those two concepts sound cool af

[dense garnet]

Yeah but that's not this genre

[brittle sky]

I'm not saying you can't have weird magic setting playing in those tropes (Deadlock is right over there) but Overwatch's ethos is engaging with a futuristic and sci fi explanation for its wackiness. Winston isn't an ape that wished on a star, he's a genetic experiment.

[dense garnet]

High fantasy mixed with sci-fi has always been a weird concept

[sand veldt]

Deadlock is cool I admit

But I’m a ps5 player unfortunately

[sand veldt]

Hey, warframe did it well

[dense garnet]

Subjective

I don't like Warframe lol

[sand veldt]

Any reason?

Anyway. Overwatch chat

Is Mizuki a good guy or not

Like, at core

[dense garnet]

I'm a stickler for mixing sci-fi and fantasy

[cosmic sigil]

was bad to start

becoming possibly good

[sand veldt]

How would you prefer it to be done?

Without saying “not at all”

It’s been a genre for a while now

Hell, League does it

[dense garnet]

Yeah I just don't like it

[sand veldt]

But you like league?

[dense garnet]

Sorta

[brittle sky]

He seems sympathetic, is only working with the baddies out of coercion, and practically screaming from the rooftops how he'll eventually go good.

[brittle sky]

Just an example of like, you can do an urban fantasy/modern fantasy setting, but it should be that. Or you can even mix the two with destiny's whole deal. But you shouldn't just shift genres every time your setting goes to Japan, or give up on being sci fi because you can't be bothered to come up with a tech explanation.

[dense garnet]

I think League has a neat idea of magic Vs. science being a central point of focus within the story

Once it gets to more cosmic ideas I kinda just tune off

Same reason why I never really got into superhero comics that much either

[thorny moon]

I know what kind of man you are

[brittle sky]

Is it? Like arcane toyed with it for a moment but the binary broke down pretty immediately, and its science is mostly just material based and systematic magic rather than like, bloodline magic.

[silent linden]

What am i?

Damn no gif

Can i lile get embeded i been in this server since 2021 mod

You can trust me

[edgy meadow]

overwatch always strayed and floating between different settings and tropes and combining it into a cohesive world, i think its part of the charm

id certainly appreciate an explanation for anima tech, and we might get it once the inevitable hashimoto/mizuki comic comes out since we know its going to feature toshiro

[silent linden]

What is blood line magic

[silent linden]

Did you finish season 2 of Arcane?

[dense garnet]

No, but I sorta knows what happens in it

The whole Viktor stuff

[silent linden]

I actually dont even understand what happened to Viktor plot lineb🤣

But i like it

[brittle sky]

Sure, but the shimada arc has always been the one they didn't really anchor within the sci Fi as much. Like again, the anachronism is constant. It's just here where the tech was inadequately explained or flavored as tech.

[sand veldt]

Ekko my goat

I was hoping the mysterious sorcerer was Ryze

[brittle sky]

I mean, I for one like they tied it into their own story rather than just reference an entirely random character otherwise irrelevant to the plot.

[little elbow]

Emre lore drop anyone?

[silent linden]

When is the new update drop

I assume qe are getting new comic every week?

[edgy meadow]

yes

a comic should drop today

and it should be about the cat

if the weekly global event names are a hint

(which they are)

[dense garnet]

3 hours probably

[sand veldt]

Who’s your fav league character?

I don’t play the games but I love the worldbuilding

[shrewd pivot]

It's more so that Doomfist underestimates interpersonal connections (Winston having EXTRA MOTIVATION to hurt Doomfist after Tracer was hurt, Efi and Orisa + Lúcio working together, etc)

Doomfist is competent and he doesn't underestimate foes, he underestimates the interpersonal connections and the consequences of disrupting interpersonal connections. Antonio's and Vialli's death impacted Vendetta's interpersonal connections (her dad dying, her legacy insulted, etc) and now Vendetta has EXTRA motivation to hurt Doomfist. I just wish the writing showed this better and allowed both heroes to be competent in things they had shown competence in prior (ie, Doomfist would have heard Vendetta running in the dark)

I am looking forward to future writing quality tho bc the recent comic had the "show don't tell" writing Vendetta needs, and it's only uphill from here imo

[dense garnet]

Poppy and Tristana

[sand veldt]

Ryze and Ezreal

Oh and Kaisa

[shrewd pivot]

That's more so bc overwatch is a "pulp fiction + cinema references + fantasy class with a scifi twist" -- I believe writers when they say "no magic just advanced technology that seems like magic." Hardlight is scifi, it could have EASILY been mage punk but overwatch took the scifi route for hardlight

I also recently learned that in DnD, Lawful vs Chaos is about community unity (lawful) vs individualism (chaos). It's not actually about rule of law Order vs anarchy Chaos like I had presumed lol (I am learning about DnD rn)

This makes a LOT of sense if overwatch is inspired by DnD. Doomfist outright wants Chaos and is very individualistic focused, while Orisa and Efi and Numbani is all about community unity and Orisa being an airport traffic security guard vibe of sorts

[sand veldt]

We don’t have enough good magic based games

[dense garnet]

Orisa is lawful good, Akande is lawful evil

[worthy rose]

Do you guys think while the talon vs overwatch war is in its peak while both sides are exhausted rammatra is gonna third party like hell and try to reign over everybody with his omnics

[sand veldt]

What even happened to ram?

Did vendetta backdoor him too

[dense garnet]

He achieved his goal and retreated into hiding

[worthy rose]

No rammatra went on passive mode

[sand veldt]

I thought his goal was human extinction

[worthy rose]

But i feel like he might third party the war and try to gain liberation for his omnic kin

[worthy rose]

In the interaction he said vendetta is already doing that for him

[sand veldt]

“Yall are such idiots I don’t even gotta do anything lmao”

Ram, probably

[dense garnet]

His goal is to stop omnic oppression by any means necessary, and to have other omnics rise up for the fight. In his case, that means kidnapping omnics and brainwashing them

[sand veldt]

I love ram so much

I found a fanart once of him and Ultron dapping each other up

[worthy rose]

"Of course. I will gladly stand aside whole you goad humanity to tear itself apart" rammatra and vendetta said he stepped back

[silent linden]

Ram is honestly the most interesting addition to overwatch and they havent done anything with him

It may be hot take but every character since ram feel exist as industry plant to buy skin

[civic lynx]

https://fixupx.com/playoverwatch/status/2023805396792553907?s=46

Overwatch (@PlayOverwatch)

Can Brig’s old plans turn into a future full of paw-sibilities? 🐾
︀︀
︀︀Join Matilda Smedius, the voice actor behind Brigitte as she tells the story of how Fika became the one and only Jetpack Cat in our newest short story, ‘Project: Jetpack Katt’ 🛠️

**🔁 5 ❤️ 45 **

▶ Play video

FixupX · Feb 17, 2026, 5:03 PM

[sand veldt]

I hope his mythic is a wizard who can turn into a golem

That would be sick

And fitting, what with the staff

Most of the mythics seem fantasy or mythology based

We’ve got an angel, Zeus, Thor, Oni

[shrewd pivot]

So Jetpack cat is just... one of Brigitte's dreams? Jetpack cat in game doesn't exist at all in canon? Fika in canon is just a seemingly normal cat, and Fika in game is entirely noncanon to the lore?

What a shallow way to implement Jetpack cat into overwatch. Might as well be two entirely different characters from different series.

I like the writing for Brigitte, her being a squire writing her ideas is very cute, and a celebration of that inner child getting to make your ideas come to life is definitely a joy in being an videogame artist creating and sharing videogame art/stories with others, but JPC doesn't add anything to overwatch this way. Atleast Fika in game isn't canon to story lol, I am glad Lion King style intelligence isn't a baseline norm for animals in overwatch.

[dawn topaz]

kill it with fire

[civic lynx]

This is meant to be the cat’s origin story I think

[shrewd pivot]

True, but I think this further implies Fika JPC is very much a dream/idea rather than an actual overwatch agent atm

[civic lynx]

The website mentions she makes the jetpack later

[dawn topaz]

Now he has plenty of time to pursue his real goal...

Hana Song 😌

[sand veldt]

Who?

[dawn topaz]

D.Va

[shrewd pivot]

That's crackship lol
In canon, Ramattra and DVA would not date

[sand veldt]

Oh that’s her real name

[sand veldt]

Filthy flesh bag

[dawn topaz]

They would if Overwatch had good writing 🥱 /j

[sand veldt]

Didn’t that ship spark because Dva complimented bob or smth?

And everyone started going “ROBOT FUCKER”

[shrewd pivot]

Not the point. Ramattra doesn't hate humans. He hates humanity's negligence and based on his line with Baptiste, is open to human supporters

[dawn topaz]

^

[sand veldt]

He has a line with Bap?

[dawn topaz]

Baptiste: You sure you want me keeping you alive? I am a human, after all.
Ramattra: A helpful human would certainly be a welcome change of pace.

[sand veldt]

Ram can indeed be kind jokes aside

Like how he offered to help Bastion collect twigs for his birds

I love that interaction

[dawn topaz]

Ramattra shows that he does not mind humans plenty of times, his interaction with Venture is also rather neutral

Ramattra also does not vibe with "race traitors" like Maximilien given his interaction with Freja

"He cares nothing for our people and lives only to enrich himself. I suppose you have that in common."

[sand veldt]

I suppose material greed is also something ram naturally hates

He was a monk after all right

Gameplay aside is there a reason ram doesn’t have the same powers as Zen?

Since they were trained in the same place by the same person

[dawn topaz]

I assumed his purple aura was meant to be discord-ish

[sand veldt]

That’s what I thought but then I got told it was just nanobots and the purple was coincidence

I’d prefer it to be discord though

[median hawk]

Ram saving Doomfist is my dream

[shrewd pivot]

There's an overwatch artist that has done comics for overwatch, that draws DVA x Ramattra and made it popular. The content as a crackship is fine, but i learned context and I felt uncomfortable. ||I personally dislike this artist bc that artist got the Illari/Kiriko ship name "sunshrine" from a GenjixHanzo shipper on twt (and the artist still uses the term Sunshrine to this day and interacts with dark content accounts) and the artist has a trend of shipping petite pale women with monsters (full on animal body dragons, as well as masculine larger dark skinned characters) which personally makes me uncomfortable as it's a "defiling purity" fetish with youthful petite paleness as that 'purity' fetish. ||

The artist had issues with ignoring features of characters in art, but HAS gotten better at representing facial features (recent Ramattra Zenyatta comic showing different nose types) and not giving everyone same face as was seen in Wuyang's comic where his older teach had same face as younger students, or the Christmas comic where same face was applied to the families.

DVA x Ramattra is fine as a crackship, but it should not be canon, it wouldn't make sense story wise and it would ruin DVA's character imo. We have Hazard x Susie which is a much better rep imo.

[sand veldt]

I agree with all of this

But what kind of twisted person would ship the Shimada brothers

[shrewd pivot]

Apparently the person that invented Sunshrine as a term, that the overwatch artist still uses despite this being pointed out.

[sand veldt]

I’d definitely accept Emre and Freja as canon though

I don’t know the lore so what’s up with Kiriko and illari? Is it an age difference?

[merry mason]

I don’t get the problem with them using sunshrine the rest I agree is weird

[shrewd pivot]

I don't want Emre to be written taking advantage of a new recruit in og overwatch days (22 vs 32), it honestly would be poetic for it to be a one sided crush from Freja

[sand veldt]

I thought they were similar age and close friends

[spark mica]

Ahh finally my language

and at least you see it too brochacho

[sand veldt]

I wanna see Ram and Zen reunite in a fully animated cinematic

Or just see ram fight in one

[shrewd pivot]

||The overwatch artist actively interacted with a GenjixHanzo shipper to get the name Sunshrine (artist asked for shipname reqs, and is using that suggestion to this day). As an artist professionally drawing for a T rated series, it's not appropriate to platform incest accounts in the fandom.||

[dawn topaz]

D.Vattra is...problematic media? 😔

[shrewd pivot]

Emre is currently 44, Freja is currently 34. That age gap isn't necessarily bad.

The issue is, I don't want an og overwatch Freja(22-23 new recruit) x og overwatch Emre(32-33 seasoned agent) to be mutual romance bc that dynamic feels more like a mentor student situation. It seems it's canon Freja probably had a romantic pursuit of Emre based on subtext, but no subtext thus far has suggested Emre feels romantic towards Freja.

[sand veldt]

Getting friendzoned by a hot possessed dude must sting

[shrewd pivot]

Nope! Just the artist that popularized it.
DVA x Ramattra is fine as a crack ship, enjoy your fandom :)

DVA x Ramattra should not be canon tho imo, it ignores facets of DVA's ethics, I don't think DVA would forgive Ramattra for killing/engagement when DVA was a MEKA member

[sand veldt]

Wonder if Emre knows he’s got Chernobog in him

[sand veldt]

DVAs ethics and not rams?

[shrewd pivot]

Ramattra doesn't hate humans, but I see no particular reason he would fall for Hana in canon. DVA is about protecting her people, but since she sides with overwatch it's no different an antagonist than any other overwatch member vs Ramattra's Nullsector.

DVA though, canonly would absolutely not forgive Ramattra for the Null Sector assault so I said DVA's core ethics are ignored.

[sand veldt]

Yeah lol true

I can’t tell whether she meant Bob was cute as in attractive or

Cute as in

Aw, helpful robot

[shrewd pivot]

Well, BOB is cute c: Lil bowler hat.

Lúcio has a line suggesting romance between him and Iggy (omnic), and Hazard x Susie is a thing, so it's not unreasonable to take the BOB line as showing DVA wouldn't be opposed to dating omnics. It could also just be DVA saying "awww cute!" and not indicative.

[sand veldt]

I don’t actually know who suzie is

Although I love Hazard

They haven’t done much with his lore

I hope that changes

[dawn topaz]

I get where you're coming from, and I do agree that it's best as fanfiction (because canon sucks ;P) but I could see it working out if there was some sort of redemption for Ramattra, but that would lean back into fanfiction for how the characters COULD grow in the future

[sand veldt]

If there’s one person who could make ram see sense

It’s the one person he actually loves and cares about

His brother Zen

I once saw some art of them standing looking at each other in a ruined street and I can’t seem to find it again

It was amazing though

They have a very magneto and professor X dynamic

[shrewd pivot]

Maybe. I just cannot see DVA forgiving Nullsector's attacks, she is the one MEKA member SUPER 24/7 dedicated, and willing to risk her life to protect her people from gwishin. There's a lot of trauma there, so idk I can't see canon DVA entering a relationship for someone who knowingly endangered and killed innocents. I think she's better off having a civilian love if she ever has one, it would allow her to relax :)

[sand veldt]

I love ram and him finding love would be cool but

Idk

It doesn’t suit him

[shrewd pivot]

Ramattra doesn't need romance to 'fix him'

[sand veldt]

Exactly

Side note

I see way too much ram and zen ship art

Do people forget they’re brothers? Or at the very least see each other as brothers

[dawn topaz]

Right, I should specify that I mean I can see her forgiving him on a neutral layer realistically, less of a relationship

[sand veldt]

Ram is the most redeemable villain by far

He’s fighting for his people

Vendetta is well, fighting for a…

Yk

Doom is just fighting for the love of the game, really

[shrewd pivot]

The shippers claim bc esports accounts made shitpost memes, it's canon. It's not...

[pastel stirrup]

am i the only one that thinks the jpc lore is terrible?

i thought the cat would've been genetically mutated like winston or hammond. instead brig just adopts some regular stray and thinks "you know what sounds like a good idea? let me strap this fucker to a jetpack that she can fly around and fight alongside ow with because she seems special"
is brig unhinged?

[sand veldt]

Is she unhinged?

Have you seen her father?

What about rein? She grew up close to him right?

I wouldn’t call either of them normal or sane

FOR THE CRUSADERS

[wicked carbon]

what side is Venture even apart of, Overwatch, Talon? or are they just there wandering or something 😭

[pastel stirrup]

wayfinders

[sand veldt]

Ventures just chill bro

Annoying as fuck in game but chill

[wicked carbon]

yeah no I love Venture, my favorite dps easily was just curious what they even do lore-wise

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I agree. There were ways to handle JPC being a non genius like Hammond and Winston, but so far Fika lore is really..... uncreative? Like Hammond is a shitpost but he is still integrated into lore with Thoughless Gods as a deep story. JPC is a shitpost and her lore is "doesn't matter, she's a meme haha look guys JPC is finally here! It's not that deep" :| like ok... people don't come to overwatch for shallow stories.

[wicked carbon]

I feel like not every character has to have giga lore, there are already sooooo many characters, although I feel like JPC/Fika is hiding something

[dawn topaz]

Makeout with Juno, Rival Mauga, uhh...be awesome...

[sand veldt]

Why does juno annoy me

I’m not even kidding, it’s a mystery to me

But I hate her

[wicked carbon]

Juno is just really bland imo

[shrewd pivot]

Wayfinders society. The wayfinders... seemingly let Oasis take in the Vanadium find? So Wayfinders seems very... morally grey as a group.

[shrewd pivot]

No giga lore needed, but if Fika ends up just being a normal cat, it breaks the point of having genetic experiment animal characters in the first place. Why need lore justification for Winston and Hammond, when the next character could just be a normal dog like Murphy?

[pastel stirrup]

even if they reveal later down the line that the cat is actually really intelligent, it doesn't erase the fact that brig made the decision to give her a jetpack without knowing

also what ultravioart said

[dawn topaz]

Don't worry, we won't get any animal characters for the next few decades

We'll instead get...5 more Kiriko flavors

We have Space Kiriko and Fire Kiriko so far

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I get using maybe military animals (Efi's novel had cyborg military dogs) but Winston is RIGHT THERE... Hammond lore showed us Winston's lore is all about humans abusing animals in experiments for human purposes. I don't think Winston would be okay with child soldiers nor animal soldiers bc of his background, I don't think Winston would be comfortable endangering Fika by placing her in any dangerous situations. If it's just a fun service work animal deal, ok. But not battlefield.

[silent linden]

He is a meme character

[shrewd pivot]

Unfortunately she is...

[silent linden]

Let just stop pretend he is serious character contribute to the lore

Oh yeah she. I forgot

[peak escarp]

that origin story is exactly what I expected it to be

"here's a weirdly smart cat, I'm gonna build a jetpack for it"

[silent linden]

Hell i argued overwatch hasnt add a character that is serious since Ramattra

[pastel stirrup]

are we seriously comparing everything between ram and new season 1 to jetpack cat bro

[edgy meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/jaejoongxd-bat-cute-eating-banana-gif-10852133524311780151

[shrewd pivot]

Do you think Fika in canon story is on the battlefield in dangerous situations?

The story is probably an origin short no present day, but the bio says Brigitte did build a jetpack

[peak escarp]

probably not

[pastel stirrup]

the jetpack itself is too dangerous lol it doesn't rlly matter

[dawn topaz]

Domina "I skin Chinchillas to show that I am evil"

[pastel stirrup]

#lore-discussion message
being a shitpost character doesn't mean nonsensical lore that breaks the world's logic is suddenly a good thing

[sand veldt]

Domina a bitch

[dawn topaz]

It's also just weird considering everyone else is very much meant to push the story forward

people whine about vendetta beating doomfist but it's pretty much the only way the story could move forward

[shrewd pivot]

I hope not.

Idk it just feels so odd to implement a beloved character concept JPC in a way where in-game Fika fully understanding human speech and fighting in dangerous situations is not at all canon whatsoever to the story. This also opens the door to overwatch having human child characters bc Fika's intelligence seems to be child like, not an adult like Hammond and Winston.

Even Zenyatta canonically can fight so it's not completely ooc for Zenyatta to be on the roster. Mei shows she actually uses her ice tech in canon. JPC... might as well be Brigitte's imaginary friend put into the game

[peak escarp]

they would not add a child soldier

[dawn topaz]

Before this "reset" to season 1 the story was very stagnant

[peak escarp]

cartoony animals is one thing, but they would not cross that line

[silent linden]

Im just curious what logic did he break that other hasnt break

Im sorry she. My bad

[shrewd pivot]

So Fika isn't a child intelligence? Fika is as intelligent as an adult human? Fika seems to be a smart cat thus far, limited communication but still child like.

[pastel stirrup]

regular pets cannot operate jetpacks bro

[dawn topaz]

D,.Va is the closest you'll get to a child soldier

[silent linden]

Like kiriko LITERALLY WIELD MAGIC in world where they explicitly say not magic

[shrewd pivot]

Illari lol

[pastel stirrup]

nobody here likes kiriko bro

we all think kiriko sucks too

[peak escarp]

but she's not a human child

[silent linden]

And wuyang WENT TO WATER COLLEGE

[peak escarp]

intelligence level doesn't matter

[pastel stirrup]

water college is pretty goofy but at the very least it's tech and not magic

[shrewd pivot]

Canon confirmed her Dad made Anima tech for Genji, Hanzo, and Mizuki. We can speculate that Kiriko is using Anima tech too with the Kitsune

[silent linden]

[silent linden]

That's bs. Considering they reference the spirit fox as her ancestral power

[silent linden]

Then explain genji and hanzo

[pastel stirrup]

confirmed to be tech

[edgy meadow]

i was wondering if jpc lore drop would fry this channel

[silent linden]

How is it tech if only a shimada can wield the dragon

[pastel stirrup]

"how is my phone tech if it needs my fingerprint to be unlocked?"

[peak escarp]

only the Shimada clan had the tech (until the Hashimoto stole the guy who makes it)

[silent linden]

Except it is not the same? Because that same dragon also hurt Hanzo.

[pastel stirrup]

💀 it's a weapon bro ofc it hurts

what difference does that make

[peak escarp]

the dragon is basically a shaped energy blast

[dawn topaz]

Gun with a fingerprint lock

[silent linden]

@pastel stirrup im just why are you ok handwaving literal magic with explanation of tech but "smart cat is too much"

[pastel stirrup]

because it's literally not magic
and the cat is a REGULAR CAT

[silent linden]

[peak escarp]

probably not 100% normal

[shrewd pivot]

Winston has lore about legally fighting for his rights/personhood because of his intelligence level + prior foundations of Aurora establishing personhood for non-human intelligence.

If Fika is on par with a human child's mind, that's playing a child soldier--This could open the door to playing heroes with children's minds, no matter what species.

It's no different logic than how you can justify awakened omnics like Susie being akin to an adult and not a child.

[silent linden]

[peak escarp]

she seems more intelligent than an average cat

[pastel stirrup]

fine, a cat that seems special wtv
it doesn't rlly matter

they're not explicitly genetically enhanced

[peak escarp]

I have no idea what you're going on about. All I said was that Overwatch will not introduce a human child as a playable hero - it's not about intelligence level, it's about not endangering a human child

[pastel stirrup]

and even if they reveal later that she was, brig doesn't know that yet

[shrewd pivot]

Well yeah. That's why we didn't get Efi as a playable hero.

[sand veldt]

Tech and hard light doesn’t explain Zens powers

[peak escarp]

Zen's powers aren't canon

[sand veldt]

…

That’s just lazy writing

[peak escarp]

he can float while meditating, that's about it

[dawn topaz]

pretty sure children dying in videogames is frowned upon

[peak escarp]

Lucio's healing isn't canon either

[pastel stirrup]

bro blasts music while fighting for the love of the game

[sand veldt]

Zens powers being canon would be way more interesting though

[shrewd pivot]

Devs confirmed these are game mechanics and not canon: Zenyatta discord orb, Zenyatta harmony orb, Zenyatta ult, Reaper soul orbs, and Mercy rez.

In canon, Zenyatta's orbs are meditation orbs, and in canon Zenyatta mysteriously floats (not due to gravity tech)

[sand veldt]

Doesn’t have to be magic

It can just be like

Idk

Some kind of chi

“Energy manipulation”

[shrewd pivot]

No chi pls

[pastel stirrup]

we know it's because of the iris, so has smth to do with the awakening i think

[sand veldt]

If you’re talking about religion

It doesn’t have to be religious

I mean he’s a monk so his would yeah

But in general

[shrewd pivot]

If you're talking scifi, adding alchemy makes it magepunk, not scifi.

[sand veldt]

That’s one thing I don’t get

Wasn’t iris just a robot too?

[shrewd pivot]

The Iris formed after Aurora's sacrifice (the awakening)

[sand veldt]

He’s just floating there…mysteriously!

I wonder

Does ram just take him being able to do that in stride?

“Oh my brother floats…anyway”

[shrewd pivot]

LOLLLL actually idk when Zenyatta gained his floating abilities in canon, but it would be hysterical if it was like, one day while meditating in a group Zen just started floating and all the Shambali monks were like "!!!!!!!!"

[pastel stirrup]

yh the iris actually has a real origin, it's this big established mystery central to omnic sentience that we've had since the start of the game
it's way less contrived than just randomly introducing 'fox spirits' for one hero on a whim

[sand veldt]

Zen is the messiah

[edgy meadow]

i think this is one of those cases where you just have to accept that the suspension of belief ultimately allows you to enjoy the media and narrative more than overly thinking about every specific detail - especially since its likely they a) did not think about ts yet, b) are intentionally keeping it mysterious for now and plan to dig into the details at a narrative-relevant point later

[sand veldt]

I hope it’s the latter

I love lore and I know it’s a hero shooter but

Still, it’s not like they can’t write good lore

[edgy meadow]

if they plan to explain anima lore, theyre gonna do it with the mizuki/toshiro story 3 weeks from now

[fierce moon]

so anran rez is canon hmmmmm

[shrewd pivot]

Valid. We still don't know how Reaper keeps his mind intact when going mist form, etc etc lol

[edgy meadow]

if they dont do it then, im just gonna assume its a 'dont think about it' type of suspension of fantasy

[shrewd pivot]

Unsure. Mercy comments on Anran's rez, so it's probably more like the 'canon rez' we see in the ow2 announcement cinematic, where Mercy heals Mei with a glowy touch.

The Vermillion bird is also notably a very lucky symbol, and since Anran pushes through injuries to reach her goal, it might be more like that than litterally reviving from the dead.

[sand veldt]

So, the iris

[edgy meadow]

ye its always been a symptom of overwatch merging different settings and media stages together into an interconnected greater narrative

[sand veldt]

She’s some kind of Cosmic sentience now?

Like the Force?

[edgy meadow]

its why shit like the wuxing academy fits right into the world of overwatch

[sand veldt]

I like how zen just tells Lucio to Stfu in one of their interactions

[shrewd pivot]

If it was written as a proper pulp fiction ref it would ☺️

But yeah real talk, a Wuxing college using scifi weapons idea does indeed fit into overwatch.

[shrewd pivot]

Unknown in canon. My guess is that it's properly something similar to Ghost in the shell, since Aurora is a heavy reference to Ghost in the shell.

The MC in ghost in the shell sacrifices individuality by "uploading into the net" which is like some scifi internet thing

Also if Anran was meant to be a leg brace user rep, she's not very good rep. She's using a minor compression knee brace.
There's knee/leg braces that have a fan-like mechanism for the joint, they could have used for her design to create a 'bird-like scales on leg lines' design.

[edgy meadow]

anyway on the topic of wuxing academy, i just found out about a new interaction we got this season that i quite appreciated

[brittle sky]

what are we on now? Got lost in the weeds catching up where we... got mad at ships?

[sand veldt]

What are the academies again?

Isn’t there a wood one

[sand veldt]

Hope we get an Earth guy

[brittle sky]

corresponds with the 5 traditional chinese elements

[sand veldt]

Any speculation on who the next characters are?

[shrewd pivot]

Ngl having Juno's family involved with the Wuxing college is like 😅 ok...

Regardless, maybe Juno's tech (her parents invented her tech) incorperates some Wuxing tech?

[brittle sky]

helix security chief and/or deadlock gang member frankie, relevant to upcoming heist on the helix facility
likely a hashimoto or yokai, relevant to the new tokyo map and hashimoto/yokai/shimada conflict
almost definitely d.mon

that's the next 3 heroes. Remaining 2 silhouettes are less speculated

[sand veldt]

Who tf is D.mon?

[brittle sky]

one of d.va's teammates in the MEKA squad.

[sand veldt]

Guy or girl

Or neither

[brittle sky]

Girl, best we can tell

[sand veldt]

Any of the upcoming characters male?

I just like playing male characters that’s all

[brittle sky]

The omnic in the fedora looks pretty masc

[shrewd pivot]

Possibly the trenchcoat omnic, dressed masculinely atleast

[sand veldt]

The who

Wonder what his deal is

[brittle sky]

Second from the right

[dawn topaz]

Damn D.Mon gained some weight

[sand veldt]

He looks like spider man noir lmao

Wonder what his abilities are like

[brittle sky]

they will likely have to shrink or streamline the model, as I recall back in the day devs mentioned her mech, beast, was too big to fit into all the doors.

like the torso alone seems the size of tokki in the original concept art

[dawn topaz]

okay yeah, that's a tank if D.Va was a DPS

[sand veldt]

Judging by the silhouettes all these characters minus omnic noir are female

Damn

[dawn topaz]

guy on the far left could just be fruity guy

never say never

[sand veldt]

Like Seer from Apex

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah actually now that I look at it.

Left most, androgynous so maybe a man but maybe a lady

D.MON is a lady canon

Horned character probably a lady

Trenchcoat omnic probably a man

Drone character probably a lady

Unless we are getting more nonbinary rep or masc lady rep, my bet is Trenchcoat omnic is probably the only man character coming.

The sniper on the left looks very lean bc cyborg/omnic, my guess a lady but ig could be a man (or nonbinary ofc)

[brittle sky]

I mean, where do you fall on playing enbies?

[dawn topaz]

kind of bummed that they went with her over any of the other pilots when her mech is just...big melee

[sand veldt]

I play everyone

I just prefer to play male characters

[dawn topaz]

King lowkey the goat

[sand veldt]

Venture is cool but I’ve never tried them

[brittle sky]

I mean, even with this wave, this gender split won't be as bad as it was going the other way in ow1.

[sand veldt]

The female character I play most is Orisa

[dawn topaz]

Singijeon has a more interesting sillhouette to me, I could see King being a DPs with the leaner MEKA

[sand veldt]

King?

[shrewd pivot]

Emre is our first male dps in a while (if you count Doomfist)

[dawn topaz]

King, real name Kyung-soo Han, is a member of South Korea's Mobile Exo-Force.

[sand veldt]

What was the last male dps before Em?

[dawn topaz]

Doomfist

[brittle sky]

Her mech is definitely the most 'normal' of the bunch, though I think anyone's going to need to distinguish themselves from being 'another d.va' in terms of personality

[shrewd pivot]

...Doomfist haha

[sand veldt]

Jesus

[dawn topaz]

To be fair, look at the launch roster

[sand veldt]

Ideally we’d have an even amount of both genders with several other reps

Might be because female characters tend to sell more skins

[brittle sky]

In terms of overall split, there was more dudes than women for a loooong time, and by a pretty solid margin. As much as I mistrust the motives, I don't mind if there's a femme majority for a bit.

[sand veldt]

Although im looking forward to that sigma skin

The purple one with the hood

Peak

[shrewd pivot]

Tbf Overwatch was leaning towards an even split of male vs female characters on the roster, so they had to add more female characters like Ana, Sombra, Ashe, etc

Actually, let me count now the ratio

[sand veldt]

Speaking of sigma

[dawn topaz]

8 male dps, 5 female dps on Overwatch's launch (ignoring the defense role)

[sand veldt]

Is it just me or is he sounding more lucid in his new voice lines

[dawn topaz]

and until Overwatch 2 we only got 3 dps added

with Sombra, Ashe and Echo

[sand veldt]

I mean he sounds pissed off

But still lucid and not dreamy and vague like usual

[dawn topaz]

though now the male/female ratio is 9/13 with Venture on the side

[sand veldt]

What if we lowk got a male vampire character

To justify it we can give him the morbius treatment of “vampiric scientific disease”

Could be a good dps

[dawn topaz]

Ehh we already have Moira as the Morbius character

speaking of which, are the new talon and overwatch skins canon to the lore?

[sand veldt]

I don’t even know wtf moiras powers are in lore

Gas?

[dawn topaz]

she can suck your life energy away

[sand veldt]

Mizuki is cool af and I love his design

He just needs a buff

[dawn topaz]

Is he part of Kiriko's gang? I don't really care for him

[sand veldt]

Kind of

[sand veldt]

Why not?

I’ve seen people complain that he’s edgy

Like reaper, hanzo, genji, ramattra don’t exist

[dawn topaz]

His design isn't anything I care about, and gameplay wise I prefer other heroes

It's honestly rather funny how different older heroes feel in comparison to the new ones with crazy new abilities

[sand veldt]

Some Old heroes are still stronger

Like bastion

the new ones are just more unique I guess

[dawn topaz]

Back in my day you had your shotguns, you shot people, and you could turn invincible for a few seconds to run away/teleport. Your ult was spinning around.

Now? You have alot of gimmicks, which isn't a bad thing, but it's different

[dawn topaz]

this, exactly

[sand veldt]

Like Mizukis chain

Or anrans self revive

[dawn topaz]

They have a bunch of quirks to make them more different, but it does end up making them bloated

I still need to catch up on the lore, I stopped caring around the time Freja released...

Apparently Vendetta is the daughter of the guy Reaper killed during Blackwatch, neat

[sand veldt]

And she recently somehow beat the shit out of doom and took over talon

She’s also the reason Sigma is slowly getting angrier and more lucid

Which seems like a very very bad thing

[dawn topaz]

Apparently Widow, Reaper and Sombra left Talon

Which is...a choice, atleast for Widow

[sand veldt]

I can understand Sombra

She seems like the kindest

Idk about widow and reaper

[dawn topaz]

yeah, and Reaper killed Vendetta's father so...probably not that good to stick around

Widow is weird though, there are hints of her growing independant, but I feel like that should be explored more before she just...leaves

Especially since Moira is still around

[sand veldt]

Was she brainwashed into loyalty?

Widow I mean

[dawn topaz]

yeah

neural reconditioning

[sand veldt]

She hates being referred to by her old name correct?

Also

What tf gonna happen when sigma fully regains his mind

And he is PISSED

[dawn topaz]

Iirc she is very conflicted, she does feel bad about her husband, but she also felt a certain thrill at his death

until Moira dulled her emotions

[sand veldt]

I don’t think anyone is capable of stopping a lucid sigma

Not alone anyway

[dawn topaz]

Mercy:

insert that stupid Mercy gif

[sand veldt]

Which one?

[dawn topaz]

you know the one, where she descends like a saviour

[sand veldt]

Ah

lol

Sombra was fond of him right

Treated him kindly

[dawn topaz]

yeah-ish

[sand veldt]

Whats with reaper though

What’s he up to?

[royal light]

Hiiiii

what are they talking about?

[brittle sky]

someone's catching up on recent lore

[sand veldt]

Indeed

Reaper used to be a good guy right?

Did he ever lose anyone?

[brittle sky]

in what way?

[sand veldt]

Is there a reason he went evil apart from his own pain?

[arctic moat]

nah he has a wife and child somewhere in mexico

[brittle sky]

...in LA

[arctic moat]

my bad

la

[sand veldt]

They’re still alive?

[arctic moat]

yeah

[brittle sky]

yep. He watches them sometimes

[sand veldt]

Do they know he’s

Well

Him?

[arctic moat]

no

they think hes dead afaik

[sand veldt]

Damn

[arctic moat]

in the ow headquarter destruction

[sand veldt]

Overwatch does tragic villains pretty well huh

[arctic moat]

i think bro is just angry at the world

[brittle sky]

Disillusionment with overwatch's methods, a belief that more extreme and violent methods are needed to achieve real justice in the world. Doomfist apparently convinced him that achieving that would be easiest through Talon. And then all of it gets twisted by Reaper's chronic pain and anger issues. That's the best vision we have of his current motives, per the short story Code of Violence

[sand veldt]

I wonder why he didn’t kill moira

She’s the reason he’s in constant pain right

[arctic moat]

theres a voiceline that implies he plans to

tells moira "your time will come"

[sand veldt]

Moira isn’t tragic is she?

She’s just a bitch

[arctic moat]

yeah she just kind of wants to push the limits of human evolution

[sand veldt]

So she decides her first test subject should be a highly trained ex black ops member with anger management issues

Very smart

[brittle sky]

I mean, you can spin her as having tragic aspects

[arctic moat]

she experimented on herself before anyone else we know

[brittle sky]

She's literally trying to end death with her experiments, and racing against her own mortality that is heavily implied to be shortened by her own experiments done on herself.

[arctic moat]

yeah voiceline with ram right?

[brittle sky]

Sure, though a previous one with mercy has implied something similar

[arctic moat]

but i think thats also definitely not her only motivation i think she also just wants to see what she can do

[sand veldt]

Love her one with sigma

“It ThRiLlS Me DoCtoR”

[brittle sky]

"I'd rather wait a century for progress, than enact the harm you have done."
"How wonderful, to feel entitled to patience."

[shrewd pivot]

23 Lady (+Echo+JPC? 25)

21 Lad (+Bastion+Ram+Zen? 24?)

1 nonbinary (Venture)

Heroes are listed in alphabetical order.

I know Bastion, Zen, and Ram might be "Lad" catagory but because Nameless explained omnic lore of how some omnics view gender, it might be that awakened omnics have a different understanding of gender as a "human" thing. Even Aurora chose her own pronouns, integrated herself into human culture.

Orisa was designed by Efi to be a lady robot. And Echo can copy anything, she just uses Mina Liao as a base.

Depending how intelligent JPC ends up being, she could self identify as a lady. For now, she's Ganymede/Murphy catagory imo.

[brittle sky]

I mean, just because gender is culturally conditioned and made up doesn't make omnics choice to deploy or not deploy them any less meaningful. This is not a chromosone check

[sand veldt]

I thought ram and zen at least are definitely masculine

[brittle sky]

Bastion has consistently been using he/him pronouns since OW2

[sand veldt]

I love how there are no toxically masculine characters in ow

[errant narwhal]

Is there any place I can learn more about Emre? He’s really interesting but I can’t find much on what happen to him.

[sand veldt]

He’s possessed by a glitching god ai that somehow has energy powers

[arctic moat]

you can learn that here

[sand veldt]

The god ai is named Chernobog

[errant narwhal]

Ohhhhh

[brittle sky]

that's notably a fan theory

the chernobog thing

[sand veldt]

As far as I know he’s not aware of the possession

[arctic moat]

his online bio when decoded talks about chernobog who was the finnish god ai of global security

[arctic moat]

nah it comes from his online bio

[errant narwhal]

I mean I remember his eye from sombra’s cinematic

[sand veldt]

I mean one of his spawn voicelines is “Host Reactivated”

[errant narwhal]

Wondering if they’re gonna do much more with that

[brittle sky]

To clarify

[arctic moat]

the first and last parts are caesar ciphers and when decoded lead to that

[brittle sky]

I don't doubt the chernobog theory. But because it's just fans putting together the pieces, we don't know a lot of details - whether it's possessing him remotely, is inside him, if some or all of chernobog is contained in him, whether its doing this on purpose as part of a plot of its own or is a tool of osmething else.

[sand veldt]

My only question is why he’s supposedly a bad guy

[errant narwhal]

I don’t think he is

[sand veldt]

Chernobog was a good guy

[arctic moat]

program forces him to work with talon

[brittle sky]

While he does not remember the details of how he got like this, he seems aware of something blacking him out and using his body, certainly.

[sand veldt]

But why?

[arctic moat]

thats all we know

[sand veldt]

Chernobog helped people

It liked them

[arctic moat]

no idea

[sand veldt]

It’s last words were “I’m sorry. I understand”

[shrewd pivot]

Ofc! It's not about dna here, just gender identities (cultural self identification). I feel weird doing "masc vs femme" as the catagories bc we have masculine women and effeminate men on the roster. The best way to answer "what is the gender ratio on the roster?" is with identities of the heroes. Winston self identifies as a boy gorilla, so that's Lad catagory lol. JPC is unclear if she's even smart enough to do that, so I placed her in Ganymede/Murphy catagory.

I am mentioning Nameless, just because Ramattra uses he/him, does not mean Ramattra identifies as a man. Maybe he does, probably he does, but with Nameless lore it's not hard canon that Ramattra sees himself as a man.

Venture uses they/them, so it shows us nonbinary identities exist forefront in the roster.
There are nonbinary people that use he/him but are not men. so I placed Bastion, Zenyatta, Ramattra, and Echo as robots that chose personal expression, unclear if nonbinary or binary gendered.

[sand veldt]

When they shut it down

[arctic moat]

yeah it did

[errant narwhal]

Could’ve got corrupted when he went in that mission

That must have led to the reason he works with Talon

[arctic moat]

just a theory but maybe it backed itself up in one of the many things it left behind and went insane like anubis in the years since

[sand veldt]

That’s a good theory

Sad though

Idk why

[sand veldt]

I really like Chernobog based off this one line

:(

[arctic moat]

or maybe the chernobog is just being used as a kind of catalyst for the program because of the advanced ai and something else is behind it

but i think thats unlikely

[sand veldt]

Wonder if we’ll get any more god ai connected characters

What if we get an Anubis equivalent to Emre

Probably never but it’d be so cool

[brittle sky]

I think taking that out seperately (and not even including Orisa in there) skews your breakdown of the split of characters' general gender presentation.

[arctic moat]

theoretically anubis shouldnt be able to do anything like that because its in containment unlike chernobog

[sand veldt]

Ah damn

Are they the only two?

[arctic moat]

we know the names and functions of 4

[sand veldt]

Chernobog, Anubis

Who are the other two?

[arctic moat]

Macaria in connecticut

[sand veldt]

I know Chernobog was based on security and safety

Goated

[arctic moat]

and Xibalba in mexico

[sand veldt]

What’s their functions?

[arctic moat]

Marcaria was communication

Xibalba was energy

but i dont think they were shut down like chernobog

[shrewd pivot]

Orisa was designed to be a lady robot by Efi. Orisa didn't chose her identity nor pronouns, she was programmed with them.

Bastion, Ramattra, Zenyatta, and Echo were not intentionally designed like Irisa was to be a lady, these 4 characters decided thier own self expression. Awakened omnics choose thier own identities, and Echo happens to copy human behavior with Mina Liao as a base.

[brittle sky]

God AIs were universally shut down, quarentined, or otherwise sealed off in the panic after the crisis

[sand veldt]

Xiabalba could be playable as an Emre equivalent

[arctic moat]

i heard something the other day that they were placed in containment at the atlantic arcology

[sand veldt]

I guess

[arctic moat]

no yeah they definitely arent in operation still

[sand veldt]

So is Rams arc complete

[arctic moat]

its on hold

he has the kidnapped omnics in vr chat right now

[sand veldt]

I’m wondering

Why’d they shaft all the old characters in favour of vendetta?

[arctic moat]

because of the choke with the pve

they would have wanted a new story to restart with

break the curse type

[sand veldt]

True

[brittle sky]

I think isolating 'chose their pronouns' seems an arbitrary, even kinda accidentally bio essentialist. Like, are we saying no human chose their identity for themselves?

[sand veldt]

Stadium is one of my favourite additions

Can’t wait for ram to be added

They should add more characters who can transform

[arctic moat]

goku

[sand veldt]

I hate him

Only because of his fans

The amount of utter meatriding he gets is crazy

I’d probably like him if that didn’t happen

[crisp canyon]

I have a theory that the December hero is going to be Mondatta

[sand veldt]

Yo hold up

As in, the one that got sniped?

Was that mondatta

Or are you talking about Zen and Rams mentor

[crisp canyon]

Yes, it’ll be revealed mondatta never act died, and it will lead into year 2 being ab the omnic crisis again

And that’s who the omnic in the teaser is

[sand veldt]

I don’t remember him being into fedoras

I might be mistaken tho

[crisp canyon]

To disguise himself

I was just thinking that it would make some sense if each new character this year is expanding on an existing hero/faction

[arctic moat]

yeah no

willing to eat my words if beyond all odds youre right

but no

[crisp canyon]

U would’ve said the same thing ab the cat last year

[arctic moat]

i would have but mondatta is dead

[shrewd pivot]

Not at all! The opposite! Humans chose thier identities. Being a man and living as a man has nothing to do with body parts.

In science, animals are defined by biological anatomy. I don't think a pet cat can self identify as a woman lol so JPC is "female cat" as a pet would be defined, nothing more than that. Ganymede is a male bird, etc.

It would be weird to catagorize based on "male, female" to answer "what is the gender ratio in overwatch?" especially when dealing with Venture or really any character under bc unless we see medical records in canon lol it's unclear if characters are male, female, or intersex.

So the best way to catagorize "what is the gender ratio in overwatch?" Isn't by body parts, isn't by masc or femme self expression (Lifeweaver for example is more effeminate than Zarya), but by personal identities.
Venture is nonbinary, Tracer is a lady, Soldier76 is a man, etc.

Nameless explains that some omnics view gender as a human thing, so for all we know Zenyatta took he/him pronouns for human culture integration and is nonbinary. It's not hard canon that Zenyatta identifies as a man.

[arctic moat]

that has never been a "possibly dead" thing like it has been with doomfist

its a "mondatta is dead" thing

[crisp canyon]

Could be totally wrong and it’s just an omnic hazard rolls with in his gang which also makes sense

[sand veldt]

I once saw someone say and I quote

“I’ve seen tracer get piped so many times I forgot she was lesbian”

[crisp canyon]

But it would be interesting if mondatta was explored on more, or even Anubis does something like possess what was once mondatta body

[shrewd pivot]

Here is the chart @brittle sky with better wording, mb for the miscommunication

[arctic moat]

theres been nothing suggesting omnics can be "reanimated" like that i am 100% sure it will not be mondatta

[peak escarp]

most people just go with whatever gender they're assigned at birth and don't even realize they have a choice

[crisp canyon]

That’s true, it probably is more likely to have it be a phreak

[brittle sky]

so what... 22 vs 21, and if we include robots and omnics that seem to have some self-identification in play, something like 24 dead even.

[crisp canyon]

I kinda wish we were getting a junker this year but maybe they’re saving them for something, we also still don’t have a expansion on pharah and ventures groups but maybe that’ll come next year if they focus more on Anubis

[brittle sky]

Helix has good odds of getitng a hero next season,

Given they touted up a helix security chief a lot on a tablet, and the new character is likely going to be related to Season 2's focus on the heist on Helix.

[crisp canyon]

If the rumors are true, the next hero is a member of deadlocke and newly talon with Ashe

[sand veldt]

What if we have a junker King

His mythic is Odin instead of Zeus

[brittle sky]

People are speculating Frankie, sure, but I think a Helix hero is at least as likely. For one, there's nothing really tying Frankie to that Silhouette, other than the fact the Deadlock gang will be vaguely part of the heist and one defaced part of the map has the name. Like, the silhouette outright contradicts what we know about Frankie, and the aesthetic is way more 'high tech security officer' than 'part of a biker/cowboy gang'

[crisp canyon]

It could very well be that hero on the far left but I think that’s probably Maximillian tbh

[brittle sky]

Now you're just trying to put names to faces

[crisp canyon]

Heroes go thru changes when initially conceptualized, Sombra used to be Japanese before they decided on a Latina background

[brittle sky]

Possible, but we're shooting for Frankie based off very little, a map easter egg, and that requires ignoring a tangible and obvious bit of lore hinting

[crisp canyon]

I think if deadlocke and Ashe join talon that’s pretty reasonable to focus on, and expand there giving deadlocke new tech from helix is a possibility to still align with Frankie

[shrewd pivot]

Right! To explain my semantics:

The word for people who identify with gender assigned at birth is cisgender.

The word for people who do not identify with gender assigned at birth is transgender.

That means awakened omnics who chose thier own genders are technically transgender, no one assigned them genders. "No gender" omnics arguably are the cisgender omnics in this case.

Binary gender is the 2 options of: 100% woman, or 100% man. Nonbinary gender is a gender that isn't those 2.

Furthermore, Irl many cultures around the globe have more than the binary 2 genders, and thus assign nonbinary genders to babies at birth, who grow up living as those nonbinary genders.That person would be cisgender and nonbinary.

Aka, not all nonbinary people are transgender, but many are. That said, Venture is most likely nonbinary and transgender.

[sand veldt]

If a lucid sigma is the next big bad

Fr who’s gonna stop him?

[crisp canyon]

Sombra

[sand veldt]

I hope you mean talk no jutsu

Jutsu

Why tf did autocorrect do that

[brittle sky]

I think that's finding hoops to jump through to justify something post hoc. It's possible the silhouette is Frankie or another Deadlock member, but we're not really given much actual information implying that. And yes, Deadlock will be relevant to the story about the Heist on Helix's facility of Grand Mesa. But also, Helix, the faction being heisted will be important to that arc, does not have any characters representing it at this point, and there's a datapad outright toutting the arrival of a new security chief, the person that would be opposed to the heist.

[crisp canyon]

But we’ve also had characters introduced that don’t join the roster until years after we see them even if they added a helix agent

[shrewd pivot]

Excluding JPC, Echo, Orisa, Ramattra, Zenyatta, Bastion:

22 lady (+Orisa,+Echo+JPC, 25.)

21 lad (+Bastion,+Ram,+Zen, 24)

1 nonbinary

If overwatch was trying to go for global gender ratio rates, there would be slightly more ladies than men on the roster. And we would need atleast another explicitly nonbinary hero alongside Venture.

[crisp canyon]

To me they showed off the drone for a reason, so ppl who pay close attention to lore would recognize it

[obsidian axle]

I was sifting through the silhouette of the next characters they’re releasing

…they’re adding two more East Asian characters

Unbelievable

[crisp canyon]

Why is that unbelievable

[obsidian axle]

D.mon and that person with the Oni headgear. What happened to representation?

We have 1 black woman in the game

[peak escarp]

representation shouldn't be a checklist

[median orchid]

+1

[obsidian axle]

hmm, what does it mean to you?

[crisp canyon]

If rumors are true next season there will be a new black woman

[crisp canyon]

Not a generic white man or woman

[obsidian axle]

But that means you’re okay with a cast of all white it’s non-generic people

[peak escarp]

it means they shouldn't add specific identities just to say they have them

[shrewd pivot]

More like disappointing. We really don't need more human Japanese heroes atm when for example entire areas of the African continent haven't had Roster heroes yet. I would love more Japanese heroes down the line ofc, it's just... yeah.

[crisp canyon]

No? Tf

[median orchid]

Venture right?

[obsidian axle]

I think you could’ve phrased that better, I was being facetious

[peak escarp]

representation also doesn't mean every hero has to be from a new location

[obsidian axle]

But what does that mean?

[shrewd pivot]

Venture isn't a token character imo... Venture just happens to be nonbinary....

[brittle sky]

I mean I think or biggest split at release was like 5 more lads than ladies on release, so we're not even close to that yet. Don't know if we'll even hit that if the rest of the year is as skewed as it is. And if we do, then hey, let the ladies get a slight disproportion in their favor for a bit. Guys had it plenty.

[median orchid]

She couldve been done better IMO. Like Tracer is a well done Bisexual charecter.

[crisp canyon]

Rage baiting

[shrewd pivot]

I am fine if overwatch is aiming for a global population % ref tbh.

[shrewd pivot]

Lesbianphobia and enbyphobia aren't cute to joke about :( please stop /genuine

[hushed jetty]

huh!

[obsidian axle]

I couldn’t care less about character’s sexuality because that’s not like a visible feature

[median orchid]

Uhh?

What joke?

[obsidian axle]

Junkrat and Mercy could be gay for all I know

[crisp canyon]

But that’s representation…

[obsidian axle]

sure, but physical visible representation is more important

[median orchid]

Im not a big fan on how Venture is implemented

[shrewd pivot]

Tracer is canonically a lesbian, and Venture is canonically nonbinary and canonically uses they/them pronouns.

[median orchid]

Yeah I know that

[crisp canyon]

Both are important

[median orchid]

And Tracers sexual identity is implemented much better Imo

(#1 Tracer fanboy here)

• Self report

[shrewd pivot]

I am interested in overwatch creating heroes based on pulp fiction and famous cinema and global cultural hero tropes. Humanity is diverse, so I think it's okay to say it's cool to see a global roster represent many parts of the globe :)

[obsidian axle]

Anyways, we’re still missing heroes from Iberia, Southern Africa, East Africa, Rio De La Plata + Brazil, Central Asia, the Caucus

I can think of so many places other than Korea China and Japan :/

[brittle sky]

I don't think it should be a crass checklist, but if you're committed to showing a variety of heroes (which they explicitly are) and trying to go for a more vibrant, varied world than just whatever is easiest (which I believe they implicitly are or were), then just focusing on concentrations in america, western and northern europe, and the 3 east asian countries with the largest gaming markets is failing to do that. The skew is undeniable, and lines along what's easiest fore western devs to imagine and what's most marketable to western and east asian markets.

[hushed jetty]

in terms of diversity and Spread of our heroes' national identities i do think it is a little odd how many goddamn east asians we have now, but yknow.

[crisp canyon]

Brazil?

[median orchid]

I guess Asian charecters sell well in media idk

[obsidian axle]

Oh true

So just Rio de La Plata then

[brittle sky]

Central Africa, SWANA writ large, Central America...

[median orchid]

If they wanted like actual representation they would add a Ace charecter (Which they wont do because sex sells)

Give me and like the one other Ace guy some rep plz

[hushed jetty]

I feel similarly about almost all the spanish speaking characters, or even just characters with Latino heritage, being specifically mexican

except for illari

[obsidian axle]

Gran Colombia, Central America, Central Africa, Siberia

[crisp canyon]

I can agree there are places to explore but East Asian women aren’t a standard in media to say they aren’t representation anymore

[hushed jetty]

central american hero would go CRAZY

[obsidian axle]

this!

[hushed jetty]

team 4, give me a belizean hero and my life is yours

[obsidian axle]

That’d be cool!

[median orchid]

Isnt Baptiste central american then? Is Cuba and the rest of the islands classified as Central america?

Im not sure tbh

[hushed jetty]

i think haiti is considered north america

[obsidian axle]

We’re also missing a Cuban hero i think since we have a Havana map. How about an Icelandic one next?

[crisp canyon]

That’s the Caribbean

[hushed jetty]

or like, caribbean i guess

[median orchid]

Alr

The more you know

We likely are going to get a Finnish map atleast

With Chernoborg and all

Maybe a Finnish hero

[obsidian axle]

I just hope this doesn’t become the norm 🙁 I don’t usually care about diversity but Overwatch’s identity has always been tied to being such a global game

[shrewd pivot]

Venture is nonbinary, it's not treated as some big token thing. The only thing Venture does is make a corny "they slash them!" joke but that fits the goober personality. I like that Venture is allowed to be portrayed as more masculine, as most nonbinary reps are effeminate or effeminate leaning androgynous.

I dislike Venture's handling bc Venture is Indiana Jones pillager searching for treasure and mummy curses trope, instead of Venture being hard focused on being a hero by getting artifacts back to local communities and protecting omnic artifacts when no one else will, etc.

[obsidian axle]

More than being touching or nice I just find it so cool that we get to see so many nationalities

[hushed jetty]

the thing is with heroes' national identities is that like. you do sometimes have to make their national identity part of your character, otherwise you are in fact checking off boxes

[crisp canyon]

It’s still a global game

[hushed jetty]

i bring up illari again, her being peruvian is CRUCIAL to who her character is and it could not be removed without meaningfully changing her

vs for example, like. hazard? i guess? whk has a scottish accent but thats about it

[median orchid]

Yeah and Moira

[hushed jetty]

and moira yes
at least she speaks gaelic

[median orchid]

Moira is just Irish for Irish sake

[brittle sky]

Certainly, to an extent. It's this thing where you shouldn't just make a character a stereotype of their country, but you also want to express and celebrate their identity. So I think characters should have a spectrum - some are characters who just happen to be from where they are (because thats how many people are), while others lean into what make the culture or place they come from unique.

Like the pitfall of saying 'they shouldn't just randomly be from a place' is then people go 'well, they're not super Irish here, not really any one thing here, so guess we should just make them American'.

[hushed jetty]

this, too, is fair

[median orchid]

Make a pie chart. Like a good portion of the important heroes (Atleast lorewise) is either: A) American B) Japanese

There is Germany and Sweden too but otherwise? Basically one rep per country

[crisp canyon]

4 Americans 4 Japanese 1 German and 2 Sweden

[median orchid]

Yup

Mostly one-offs. Its not a big deal but a funny detail (Atleast for me)

[obsidian axle]

*soon to be 5 japanese

[median orchid]

So like 20% of the 50 heroes are like the most generic nationalities ever

[brittle sky]

Scandanavia is pretty outmoded in the cast. 2 swedes, an unrelated norwegian, a major plot figure with finnish coding. All in a region of the world whose combined population is less than... the 18 most populace countries in Africa have individually. Which isn't to say they need to perfectly match population statistics to be 'representational', but does speak to how cultural awareness is pretty desynced from the realities of the world.

[crisp canyon]

And there’s nothing wrong with that mind you Europe in general is a bigger roster than Asia in this game

[obsidian axle]

also can we get more oddballs lol i’d love to see more characters like Jetpack Cat

[shrewd pivot]

There's also something... not very hopeful about making new hero designs with the financial incentive to sell skins, bc then biases get leaned into like ableism, colorism, ageism, etc...

[obsidian axle]

👆

this

[obsidian axle]

True, but the game is made by Western and mostly white devs so this makes sense. Thankfully, they’ve moved away from those character design choices

[shrewd pivot]

Like Anran is not good disabled perspn brace user rep imo, she's just wearing a vague compression brace armor accessory, but someone who constantly sprains thier knees would be using a more heavy duty brace. There's no creativity to include disability aids in her design like there are with other characters.

[brittle sky]

But like... why should Asia be so overwhelmingly Japanese (5, soon) and Chinese (3 1/2) and Korean (2, soon). The rest of east asia gets... 1 1/2, south asia has 2, west and central asia get bumpkis

[crisp canyon]

Why we are acting like it’s only ever gonna be east Asia 😭

[obsidian axle]

girl cause this year alone they’re gonna add 4 east asian characters in total

[crisp canyon]

There’s also just more lore in general for Japan

[obsidian axle]

Like imagine they add four european characters

[crisp canyon]

Acting like east Asia is standard for media

[obsidian axle]

it kind of has become that tho….

[crisp canyon]

Not really

[brittle sky]

but like... they make the lore. They can make lore elsewhere.

[crisp canyon]

Yeah just abandon this part for another

[obsidian axle]

oh also i don’t mind more chinese heroes since China is so diverse

[brittle sky]

I mean, they just did. They've been alternating between chinese characters and europeans exclusively the last few years

[obsidian axle]

Fair fair

i did complain about Hazard as well

[crisp canyon]

They added vendetta and no one complained ab her being European 😭 but ppl hear East Asian and its whole other thing

[obsidian axle]

She’s the first southern european we’ve had

[shrewd pivot]

Los Muertos has yet to be touched but people love the aesthetics (imo we don't need YET another Mexican hero tho so soon). There COULD have been more lore in South East Asia considering Manilla cybertech company. Ultimately it's a /choice/ to focus on Japan and not other Asian countries

[obsidian axle]

I’m not treating Asia as one continent, and i won’t treat Europe as that either

East Asia is analogous to Scandinavia or central europe or eastern europe

[crisp canyon]

Maybe they just haven’t gotten there yet in the story

[brittle sky]

Oh no, I complained about her, and the general trend of 'we need to represent every ever smaller european country for true rep - what do you mean there should be a second subsaharan african human on the cast? We have one already and he's doing just fiiiiine.'

'no need to check on him, he's fine, we swear.'

[crisp canyon]

Italy being a smaller euro country lol

[obsidian axle]

it’s like the 3rd most populated cmon

[brittle sky]

Missing the point there

[crisp canyon]

I think there should be more characters but having more East Asian characters doesn’t mean representation just stops or it’s the standard

[brittle sky]

That we think 'well this is a huge and culturally distinct country, of course it needs proper rep!' may be true, but we're doing it disproportionately to the countries we regard as familiar or as 'important', and that, to most westerners, is going to skew us to America, western europe, and 3 east asian countries

[crisp canyon]

Like I would like to see a lot more Native American characters instead of just Illari

[brittle sky]

(and pharah. Halfway. proooobably post hoc)

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, to excuse an Italian hero, there's Italian and Greek maps, I would rather Italy than a country we already have covered on the roster. I am happy with Turkish hero, we don't need a Greek hero imo bc the general area is covered now.

I think we needed non European non Mediterranean countries getting explored instead tho... again, entire areas in Africa and South America

[crisp canyon]

I’m not counting pharah until blizzard can assign an indigenous identity to her

[median orchid]

Africa doesnt really seem to exist in the eyes of blizzard anymore lol

I guess there was Doomfist and Orisa yeah

And Pharah and Ana if you count them

[crisp canyon]

Egypt is in Africa so yeah

[median orchid]

But like Southern Africa

[brittle sky]

Egypt, while technically part of africa as a landmass, is part of the (equally diverse, equally neglected) SWANA cultural swath, and they're just as starved as subsaharan africa (they got emre as a treat, kinda sorta)

[crisp canyon]

Emre is Turkish?

[median orchid]

An hero from Madagascar would be fun to see

Or like anything from Southern Africa

Like below the Equator

[shrewd pivot]

Numbani is basically scifi Yoruba-land mythology, and Egypt is Anubis ai lore/scifi Ancient Egyptian mythology. (I hate the incorrect Sphinx face btw lollll that nose sculpt is not correct)

I want to see other African cultures explored, there's a lot of rich culture and mythology to be inspired by.

[brittle sky]

Or eastern, or central, or even just non-Nigerian West Africa. We distinguished between a dutch, a german, and a swiss, after all. Why does any huge region of Africa have to contend with scraps?

[median orchid]

If they do another African charecter Id bet money on them making a South African charecter

Like its the most prelevant country down there

[obsidian axle]

a colored south african?

[median orchid]

Well, on the Southern side of Africa

[obsidian axle]

would be so cool

[crisp canyon]

Can you say that?

[median orchid]

Yeah not like a White British colonist as the South Africa rep 💀

[obsidian axle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds

[shrewd pivot]

For note: colored is the self identifying term that group uses in South Africa.

In the USA, colored is a slur

[obsidian axle]

yeah this

[brittle sky]

Watch as they do an Afrikaner and then never touch africa for another 10 years

[median orchid]

The ultimate bait & switch

[obsidian axle]

😭

I wish they’d aged up Ifi

But idk what she would even do she’s just smart

[median orchid]

Brain gun

[obsidian axle]

go on…

[median orchid]

Brainwaves or something to shoot people with

Idk

[brittle sky]

I mean there's a character whose powers are 'having money' and 'ratting out his boss to whoever threatens him with violence' and people are convinced he's about to be a character.

[median orchid]

maybe I really should go sleep

[grave saddle]

Mushroom character = Cinema

[shrewd pivot]

Efi is like an artificier "battle smith" DnD class using the iron defense robot to do her battling for her, but with a scifi twist :)

[obsidian axle]

MECHA IFI

[median orchid]

They could do that if it was like Remote-Controlled like some sort of Ready Player One type of deal or something

[shrewd pivot]

Well, more like Efi makes a robot that can do things on its own

[median orchid]

Or just put Efi in a mech suit lol

[obsidian axle]

Oh that’d be cool

[crisp canyon]

I hope the next junker is aboriginal since rat was supposed to be

[obsidian axle]

[civic lynx]

This could be cool and maybe could allow Maximilian to become (technically) playable as well with the same remote control idea

[median orchid]

Opens a lot of doors

[shrewd pivot]

That term is unfortunately not great, saying "indigenous Australian" or a specific tribe name is better, from my understanding

[median orchid]

Like Im pretty sure it would be like 100% feasible with OW tech

[crisp canyon]

?? I’ve met with natives in Australia they use this term themselves 😭

[median orchid]

Yeah they are always like refered to as the Aboriginals.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it's not a word to use unless you are one or are fine with the term, kind of deal. I have Romani ancestry so it's akin to the g slur kinda.

[crisp canyon]

What 😭

[median orchid]

Ethnicity lore dump

[brittle sky]

I mean plenty of Native Americans call themselves Indians, but still doesn't mean non-natives should walk around using that term by default.

[median orchid]

The Indian term gotta get confusing nowadays with like India being a country and all

Most Gen A dont know what a Indeginous American person is

[shrewd pivot]

I have had people who are indigenous Australian heritage inform me of this, so I will trust them on not using the term default, and instead saying a specific tribe name or "indigenous Australian"

I mention my Romani heritage bc the g slur is similar in contexts, sorry I was just trying to explain.

[brittle sky]

I think getting an indigenous australian would be very cool, especially as someone both affected by the apocalypse but maybe a step outside junker culture. After all, it's a bit rich that the ALF was fighting because their 'land was stolen', when they seem to be a bunch of survivalists, megaplot farmers, and the like.

Just get an indigenous australian, then an omnic from the region, and you got a full cast for a local ecology storyline

[crisp canyon]

I have never heard this before used as a slur or derogatory it literally means indigenous Australian by definition

[median orchid]

Junker support?

[crisp canyon]

Like it’s literally the same as Amerindian

[median orchid]

Huh actually Googled it up. Seems like its actually Offensive / Racist nowadays

Thanks Wikipedia

Its got its own section on the terminology

[shrewd pivot]

From my understanding it's bc its a term used to generalize a wide group of different cultures applied by colonizers, so many prefer different wording, but many self identify with the term too! So it depends, and it's best to not default to it from how it was explained to me.

[grave saddle]

Someone proficient in the study of radiation 👀

[median orchid]

"While some preferred the term Aborigine to Aboriginal in the past, as the latter was seen to have more directly discriminatory legal origins, use of the term Aborigine has declined in recent decades, as many consider the term an offensive and racist hangover from Australia's colonial era. - Wikipedia

I guess its true then

[crisp canyon]

Aboriginal and aborigine are different words tho? Are they not

[median orchid]

Yep

Reads so on the article. Its a preference thing

[crisp canyon]

I said aboriginals not the other

[median orchid]

Shii

Reading Comprehension sure tanks at night

[shrewd pivot]

As for junkers, Fitch might be indigenous Australian ancestry? I mean, any could be ofc, but just noting

[crisp canyon]

It even said when I googled that aboriginal is more politically correct

[shrewd pivot]

I was told both terms bc the second one was derived from the first. It's not wrong to refer, it's only if that person is cool with the term, from my understanding

[crisp canyon]

Then I feel like equating to a slur doesn’t make sense

Even the flag is recognized as the aboriginal flag and the political movement is recognized by non Indigenous Australians as the aboriginal embassy, which is named by the aboriginal people

[shrewd pivot]

I was told both terms are touchy, so not to assume.

I mean. Yeah in the USA there's still official Indian American groups and certain historic groups of black rights.

It's about using the terms if that person uses the term for themselves. I was told using a specific tribe name was preferable, and then indigenous Australian if unsure. Pardon my wording, I just wished to help!