lore-discussion

[edgy tree]

Domina is working with them along with Emre and Freja

[nocturne rivet]

U r right

Emre can fight

Freja too

But i mean

Freja, emre n vendetta can win against helix n ow?

[edgy tree]

tbh Emre basically gave her all the info on that base

[nocturne rivet]

Dont forget soldier is somewhere

[edgy tree]

hard for them to lose this

[crude wharf]

Why dont they like

Just all go? With the fleet?

Literally what is overwatch supposed to do

[edgy tree]

cuz it's a big af military base with drones

[civic lynx]

It’ll be hard but imo with the S2 hero probably being the helix head of security, they’ll make talon screw up to make that character look powerful

[nocturne rivet]

REAPER RECONCILIATION

Ouuhh yeaaah boyyy

[edgy tree]

if they can win that fight without spreading out their forces thin they'd do it that way

[crude wharf]

Ig thats true

Idk, I feel like if they just went over themselves too, overwatch gets leveled

[gusty cloak]

do domina, symm, and LW know each other?

[civic lynx]

I’d assume so

Domina is like vice president of vishkar

She’d know LW as the biggest thorn in vishkar’s side

[edgy tree]

I mean.....

[civic lynx]

And sym would work for her

[gusty cloak]

cant wait to see their voice line interactions

domina is my favourite of all 5 heros announced

[edgy tree]

the only fully against Overwatch Talon memebers that are superhumans are Mauga,Emre(kinda) her and Domina which isn't even half of the Overwatch team

[civic lynx]

Same

[crude wharf]

I guess thats true but overwatch also has some shi like mei on the team lol

[nocturne rivet]

Cant wait for hammond making fun of all when he kills them

[nocturne rivet]

Mei is actually not useless

[crude wharf]

Considering Vendetta beat doom (lol), she's pretty damn formidable no?

[gusty cloak]

i reallllllllyyyyy hope the 5 heros releasing at the same time get their cinematics too. would be weird to drop 5 cinematics at the same time but still.

[nocturne rivet]

In the zero hour cinematic

[crude wharf]

She isnt but like

[edgy tree]

except we're talking about lore mei and her gun basically freezes the air

[spare flax]

I like the cat

[edgy tree]

she ain't a joke there

[nocturne rivet]

We see she create a icepulse bomb

[crude wharf]

What is mei doing against emre?

[nocturne rivet]

In like

[gusty cloak]

hammond and jetpack cat voicelines would go fire too

[crude wharf]

Mei just dies

[nocturne rivet]

20 seconds

[civic lynx]

Tracer has facial scarring in her new BP skin so I wonder who did that to her

[edgy tree]

Encase him in ice

[nocturne rivet]

the gribraltar attack

[edgy tree]

she created an ice ramp REIN COULD USE in less than a second

[gusty cloak]

mei's gonna cool emre's cybernetics and make them perform better

[edgy tree]

that shit durable

[crude wharf]

Ig that is true yea

[gusty cloak]

hope they make a cinematic outta that

[crude wharf]

You think she would be able to freeze Mauga?

[nocturne rivet]

She can stop his bullets

[nocturne rivet]

Winton exist

[edgy tree]

if u can't move ur body u can't break the ice

[nocturne rivet]

They will do

I mean

[edgy tree]

doesn't matter how strong u are

[nocturne rivet]

We see a short part in the spotlight

I think that is a full cinematic

[crude wharf]

But Mauga is actually quite hot internally

Though not sure by how much

[nocturne rivet]

But we only see a few seconds

[civic lynx]

The bit of Winston spotting the airships flying in is probably the cinematic intro

[gusty cloak]

and externally

[nocturne rivet]

Yiep

[edgy tree]

it might take a whiiile for him to break out realistically

[crude wharf]

True

[nocturne rivet]

In that time genji can attack him

[edgy tree]

ice doesn't melt that quickly

[gusty cloak]

im calling it: jetpack cat's gonna save everyone in that cinematic

[spare flax]

I have a feeling the cat is gonna be such a troll character

[edgy tree]

nah the cat will Attach to Vendetta and throw her off a cliff ending the invasion trust

[nocturne rivet]

i think is for casual player bro

She is not bad

[crude wharf]

Throws the whole fleet off the edge

[gusty cloak]

she already is. people are carrying around bastions and maugas in the air as fighter jets

they definitely have to add a timer to her tether

[nocturne rivet]

Dont forget bout dva bombs

[nocturne rivet]

Nah

[spare flax]

Which i am. And she looks fun to play with

[civic lynx]

Also I THINK with the cat you have to press a button to accept being attached to her

[crude wharf]

Jetpack Cat is literally just the gmod physics gun

[nocturne rivet]

Yiep

[civic lynx]

So things like dva bomb can’t be moved

[gusty cloak]

also isnt the infinite flight kinda busted for this game like what will rein do against her

[edgy tree]

She can grab player made objects like Bob and D.va bomb and players can ult while grabbed

[nocturne rivet]

Can be

U press the Q with dva

When u r already gripped

[civic lynx]

Unless she does it when being pulled already which makes it easy to see and avoid

[edgy tree]

nope she can just grab the bomb

[civic lynx]

If you see a big ass dva suddenly take off just move away from her

[spare flax]

Yeah i know that much I saw the cat grab cass and use his ult. Was pretty hilarious

[civic lynx]

Cass and soldier ult being airborne will be hell

[edgy tree]

she can deliver d.va bomb straight to the enemy team

[nocturne rivet]

Have u see the bastion with tank perk?

[spare flax]

I did and it looked amazing

[nocturne rivet]

And the cat movin he around

WITH A MERCY POCKET

Bro

[spare flax]

Lol this is gonna be fun. Even for the casuals

[edgy tree]

except for the people on the receiving end of the cat (esp rein mains)

low ranks already can't hit a mercy the cat is smaller and can speed up instantly

[spare flax]

Sheehs. Talk about bad aim 😅

[edgy tree]

Sombra might actually stop being banned as much lol

[spare flax]

True

[edgy tree]

(after they already nerfed her again but whatever)

[spare fox]

So obv Doomfist is still gonna be in the game

Do you think they'll have interactions with him

Like "hey aren't you dead?"

How meta will they get with it

[edgy tree]

he didn't die even in-lore

[pastel berry]

did moira make reaper what he is today?=

[civic lynx]

I think so yeah

[pastel berry]

and he

cant die??

[next moon]

I think he can’t die

[civic lynx]

I’d assume so

Moira could probably kill him since she’d know how

But normal bullets, explosions, impact etc would just temporarily stun him

[spark mica]

Reaper cant die, hes immortal, unless you just managed to kill every one of his atoms by vaporizing them

[civic lynx]

He gets seven shades of shit knocked out of him by Winston and the Volskaya mech and gets up soon after

[violet shoal]

sigma could probably with how he is

[spark mica]

Of course Sigma can

Hes top teir

Even other nerds nerdier then me powerscaled him as Number 1

[pearl halo]

Sig was so powerful they nerfed him with lobotomy

[spark mica]

If his mind wernt shattered umm

... what WOULD he do?

[pastel berry]

I lowkey hope vendetta and reaper fighjt

sure she will go for him

[spark mica]

Not really

[pastel berry]

he killed her dad?

[spark mica]

she gots bigger fish to fry then that

Yes he did but shes more focused on making Talon better rather then chasing that bum

If she did care, why did she go after Doom first and not Reaper?

Hello?

[pastel berry]

he did betray her and leave tho

[rare bridge]

yeah i agree

[spark mica]

Not really, more like he didnt like his leader, so he dumped Talon

[rare bridge]

he left because he didnt like the new leadership, he was never allied with her to "betray"

[spark mica]

Didnt do anything to harm them "Yet"

[civic lynx]

She (imo) doesn’t really seem that bothered CURRENTLY about reaper

She’s more so interested in feeding her ego and ruling the world

Once she has total power and control there’d be nowhere for reaper to go so she can just fold him out in public with the assistance of literally everyone

[spark mica]

Now this Assistance part can go two ways

A: ahh no every alliance leaves and its only talon left to kill him

[civic lynx]

Considering how vendetta acts, it would probably be she forces the allied groups to help with the threat of killing them if they don’t

[spark mica]

B: for some reason for no point, they're loyal and sticks to her

[spark mica]

Im smelling out most of them dont bother helping

[pastel berry]

he wioll jsut roam, solo now tho

[rare bridge]

tbh reaper is literally a stray now, also, widow left talon, so her medical treatment stopped, so there is chance for her to heal since she goes for regular medical treatment with moira to continue to slow her heart rate and supress bad memories, but now, whats gonna happen to amelie?

[pastel berry]

?

[spark mica]

Turns a new leaf, or becomes irrelevant (Super doubt this one)

[pastel berry]

hes one of the first charc in the game, think they got SOME plans..

maybe he doom somb join ow?

[rare bridge]

something kinda cool to happen is she gains back her old memories and angela helps to heal her and she joins overwatch lol

[spark mica]

Doom would NOT touch Ow

[civic lynx]

I think the plan with reaper will be he becomes an evil version of soldier

[rare bridge]

doom wont join ow, he is like the main enemy of them

[civic lynx]

He’s a vigilante but still does evil acts

[spark mica]

Sombra would...

[pastel berry]

wonder what he will do to get back in talon though...

maybe they join null sector? xD

[spark mica]

Nope

[pastel berry]

i just do not hope my man ram team up with vend.

[rare bridge]

widow might join ow, since it was not her decision to join ow at first

[civic lynx]

I personally don’t see null sector being relevant anytime soon

[rare bridge]

ram doesnt like humans

[civic lynx]

And when they are relevant it’ll be just to kill them off for good

[spark mica]

Hold on, theres like a 3% that might work but i doubt it

[pastel berry]

theres like 2 theroys, ram join vend or find doom.. idk xD

[spark mica]

Though there are some he dosent minds

[pastel berry]

But rams the reason OW came back, so sure vendetta pissed abt that

[spark mica]

Or Ram is useless like the past few years we had him

[pastel berry]

mf just started a war and dipped

[civic lynx]

Do we even know where the fight between doom and vendetta takes place bc that base clearly isn’t Rialto

Like why are they in the damn mountains

[pastel berry]

U think they will have a fight number 2?

She whopped doom, dont think he got balls to try again

ngl

even tho i love him

[spark mica]

He does have the balls

[civic lynx]

I think they’ll have a fight and doom kills vendetta

But he won’t return to talon as leader

[pastel berry]

makes 0 sense either dies, vendetta JUST came to ow, and doom been here for years

[civic lynx]

I think vendetta will die in late 2027 or spring 2028

[spark mica]

Or she just gets demolished and is spared

[civic lynx]

Her war will last all through this year and most of 2027 but she starts to lose allies as we approach Christmas 2026

[pastel berry]

U think?

[spark mica]

Yep, had enough to fight Genji, Tracer and Winston all on his own

[pastel berry]

that fight was PEAK

[spark mica]

and fight some of the strongest armies and won

[pastel berry]

i wonder if he lost here because he got cocky

[spark mica]

Its just the Iron fist got a bit rusty

[pastel berry]

how will he get a new glove tho

[spark mica]

Hadn't had a big fight since

[civic lynx]

Manufactured by a new faction ig?

[spark mica]

Steals the old one back or creates a newer one

[civic lynx]

Or he somehow gets the old one back when vendetta is busy attacking elsewhere

[pastel berry]

trueee they had 1 from museum

[civic lynx]

I hope they bring that museum from OW1’s reveal back into lore

The new story tab redesign has it in the background so they might use it for something

[spark mica]

Which museum?

[pastel berry]

i wished the fight lasted longer

first fight

monkey fought reaper

[spark mica]

I swear theres one people actively plays on

[civic lynx]

The OW1 reveal cinematic location

Where the kid lamps widow with the doom gauntlet

[pastel berry]

and the kid used the glove to punch widow

[spark mica]

It was like 4 minutes long

[spark mica]

I swear thats the Numbani map

[civic lynx]

It’s this place from OW1’s reveal

We never got it as a map in game

[spark mica]

oh, it had some slight similarities to the numbani one Mainly on the 2nd checkpoint

[civic lynx]

I think it’s just a generic what would a futuristic museum be like type of thing

And numbani’s one is a similar idea

This one seems much larger than numbani’s tho

[spare flax]

Isn't getting a cybernetic arm pretty easy in the time they live in?

[spark mica]

The only typa people that might give him one is MAYBE the Phreaks

If hes lucky

Ow aint giving them out anymore

and he aint just gotta idk, magicially recreate the old one by stealing that one?

[edgy tree]

dude Getting rusty is not just not punching someone while they're down and letting them grab their weapon again

He let her win that's just it

[wooden drift]

Still talking about this darn cinematic..

[pearl halo]

The cinematic incident

[wooden drift]

Ye, this shit will talked about in this channel for awhile like kiriko's age

[analog palm]

This channel is active again

[wooden drift]

We have so much lore, what did you expected?

[analog palm]

I used to pray for times like these

[analog palm]

Sorry its just been so long

[wooden drift]

We can finally do theories on what can happen next

[analog palm]

[wooden drift]

Just surprising that they pumping them down so much

And it's not even bad

[dense garnet]

I'm gonna start calling trash Doomfists in my team "cinematic Doomfist"

[wooden drift]

I called one bad doomfist like this and he was complaining about not getting healed

[dense garnet]

I think the Doomfist cinematic incident can be forgiven if they can deliver on Doom's development going forward

[wooden drift]

They definitely gonna do some cool shit with doomfist

[dense garnet]

He's gonna go train with the Tibetian Shambali monks

[wooden drift]

I trust them

Cinematic could've been much better and longer, but they probably had either time or budget constraints

[dense garnet]

Did they ever deliver on the whole thing with Talon confronting Zen?

During the whole Null Sector arc?

[wooden drift]

Yea, in the comic

[dense garnet]

Gotta catch up on that

[wooden drift]

In short rammatra wanted to talk with zen and wanting him to join him

They still not done with null sector, the plot focus is just on talon and vendetta

[pearl halo]

Fnaf ref? My bad ill go back to lore

[pearl halo]

Id say we all gotta rewatch and reread everything so we catch up once again

[analog palm]

Welp I got a lot of lore to get up to date on

[crystal saffron]

freja and emre is talon?

[wise grotto]

Yes

Although freya is an alliance made through money primarily

[glad osprey]

more ram lore more more

[crystal saffron]

i want war at gibraltar cinematic ngl

[pearl halo]

Yea

[crystal saffron]

would be so cool heroes fighting each other inside cinematic

[pearl halo]

Max paying them, and freja tagging along with emre

[crystal saffron]

+its event thats even affecting in game map

[pearl halo]

New gib looks cool ngl

[crystal saffron]

theyre hired?

[pearl halo]

They're guns for hire so yea

[crystal saffron]

not like fully joined

[pearl halo]

They getting paid, so for now hired

Until they dont get paid anymore

[edgy tree]

I'm preety sure Max forced her to join

they were said to be his "recruits" even though they're not not quite fond of him

[wise grotto]

Vendetta points out it’s an alliance made through money regardless
Without maxs money they wouodnt be there at all

[edgy tree]

The Freja cinematic shows she wasn't completly into it

even with money

[wise grotto]

Oh true and she still doesn’t look into it during the comic either

She’s more there for emre and the excuse she’s given them is money more likely

Vendetta is rather shallow of a person

[edgy tree]

Yeah I though so too

esp with them both reacting sorta guilty during the assault

Freja most likely is gonna try to save Emre from whatever is controlling him but the only way to do so was to join Talon

[wise grotto]

One hundred percent
She cares more about him then anything money could do which is why she took the job originally anyway

[light ruin]

Hey guys! Last time I played overwatch was when Jeff Caplan left the game.
What has changed in terms of Lore?
Is Omnic War still present or nah?

[civic lynx]

The omnic war recently was temporarily thrown out of lore, talon is now the main threat with vishkar, the deadlocks and Hashimoto being smaller but still important factions against OW

[light ruin]

Sad, I really digged an idea of mad omnics and that criminal omnic dude from comics

[civic lynx]

Doomfist is currently in hiding/assumed in universe to be dead and S20’s hero vendetta has taken over as the leader of talon

[quaint grotto]

my theory is null sector has to intervene with talon's conquest, Ram wont stand by and watch, talon now is going for everyone omnics included, they dont care who dies

[light ruin]

Aha, I see. really interesting

So currently it's OW vs Talon, with some of few smaller factions, but is there any mcguffin or ideological fight?

[wooden drift]

He said in the comic that he'll just wait up until humanity would finish itself. There's no need for him to intervene. He got what he wanted and now in the hiding

[civic lynx]

Vendetta wants world domination bc of her inflated ego and wants to destroy OW

[light ruin]

Quite basic, ngl. But at least something, I guess

[civic lynx]

Vishkar is an ally of talon and plan to exploit the countries talon causes damage to during the war

[wooden drift]

Well, we never had this type of villain in overwatch yet

[civic lynx]

The deadlocks have a shaky alliance with talon so vendetta can send a crew to steal something from helix security

The hashimoto are developing a new weapon for talon but may be sabotaged by one of the new heroes next season Mizuki

[quaint grotto]

he didnt, null sector retreated, their regrouping and reorganizing. he said "i fear talons problems will soon become the worlds problems" he hates humanity yea, but its omnics he cares about, talon no longer cares who dies in the crossfire of their conquest and Ramattra isnt the type of person to stand by, and watch as his people die faster than before

he isnt against working with humans as long as its in his interest either

[wooden drift]

He don't believe in co-existance with humans, that literally was said in the same comic

He doesn't want their genocide, but he wouldn't feel bad for them

[quaint grotto]

true your right about that

but im saying Talon is no longer going to pull their punches. omnics are gonna die to, and in even greater numbers than what ramattra was originally fighting against

even if he stood by and watched as talon would inevitably fall, his people would still be almost extinct by then

[wooden drift]

I don't even think they would comeback to rammatra this soon

[quaint grotto]

no definitely not

[civic lynx]

I think we won’t see null sector til 2027 or 2028 when talon fall

[quaint grotto]

this is seems like something for later on in this talon v overwatch story

[wooden drift]

They want him to be next big bad after Vendetta or even later

[civic lynx]

Vendetta’s talon is unsustainable and she’ll end up dead from OW outsmarting her

[wooden drift]

Nuh, she's definitely gonna get betrayed from inside out

Either by max or somebody else

[civic lynx]

Definitely possible as well

[wooden drift]

Max is a fucking rat

[quaint grotto]

they said their going to tell a new story with a beginning middle and end every year across the six seasons. i feel like it would make sense for null sector to intervene near the middle of the story when talon is at its highest

[wooden drift]

Even rammatra didn't wanted him

[quaint grotto]

thats also a possibility

[quaint grotto]

the deadlock gang seem the most plausible people to do so

[civic lynx]

I think they may reintroduce the fact that null sector is in fact not dead this year and reinforce ram has a plan and we will see it in the near future

But his plan won’t be realised just yet

[wooden drift]

Nuh, Ashe the last of people to betray someone

[quaint grotto]

this feels more plausible

[wooden drift]

I only see her do something against talon if Vendetta wouldn't keep her word or throws them under the bus

[quaint grotto]

i think it'll be more of a realization for ashe, vendetta will screw up and she'll realize it isnt worth allying with her as she burns down the planet

[civic lynx]

I think vendetta will somehow fuck up this mission to make S2’s helix head of security hero look powerful and intelligent and then it causes a rift between the deadlocks and talon

[quaint grotto]

the hashimoto will stick with her 100% unless its no longer in their interest to do so

[wooden drift]

I think junkers have more chances to betray talon, than these two

[civic lynx]

I agree

JQ doesn’t seem like the type of person to follow orders from someone who thinks they have more authority than her

At least not long term

[quaint grotto]

thats if mauga gets them on their side in the first place

[wooden drift]

They definitely gonna be forced to comply by something

[quaint grotto]

whats in it for them is a question to? what is JQ getting out of an alliance with talon

[civic lynx]

I think there’s a comic where JQ says it may be time for the junkers to go beyond just Australia so maybe talon would help the junkers expand their influence

But keep a very close eye on them so if they ever tried to act out or work against vendetta they can be swiftly dealt with

[wooden drift]

Nuh, she wants junkers to control Australia

That's kinda it

[quaint grotto]

they already do

[civic lynx]

They control the outback area idk if they control all of Australia

[wooden drift]

I mean have them on her side to have control over Australia

[quaint grotto]

that makes more sense

[civic lynx]

But if they do it would make vendetta’s life easier

She uses the hashimoto to control at least Tokyo

[quaint grotto]

i thought the entire continent was irradiated after the omnium explosion

or atleast affected

[civic lynx]

Coastal cities are unaffected

[wooden drift]

Nuh only parts of it

[civic lynx]

Sydney looks like all the other futuristic OW cities

Only the outback is irradiated and dangerous

[quaint grotto]

then the most plausible reward for JQ is for vendetta to help them conquer the coasts of Australia

[wooden drift]

Man, could've been such a fan map in game tbh

[civic lynx]

I think we’ll get it eventually tbh

It doesn’t make sense to keep just for a lucioball backdrop

[wooden drift]

I would love omnium map too

[civic lynx]

A few of the cities in aatlis’ timetables are in game or coming eventually (Atlantic arcology)

Maybe we’ll get the rest of them as full maps later down the line

[wooden drift]

They take their sweet time with new maps

[civic lynx]

New heroes seem to be their more enjoyable development focus

Tokyo and Iceland do seem like really unique and cool maps tho

And Atlantic arcology will be as well if they ever release it

[wooden drift]

Hope one of them would be either payload or hybrid, cuz it's been awhile

Push could be good too

[civic lynx]

Tokyo looks like push, hybrid or payload

The street the concept art shows looks like where a payload or bot would move through

Iceland and Atlantic arcology could be anything since the concepts are vague

[wooden drift]

Maybe Atlantic would points mode

With how open it looks like

[civic lynx]

Atlantic could be control like oasis so we can go to multiple parts of it

Or flashpoint

[brittle sky]

Maps take a lot of time, and given new maps are less popular in voting and ergo played less, often for modes they turn around and shelve, and they are inherently not profitable as you cannot sell skins for maps, the incentives seem to have fallen off.

[wooden drift]

Shame

[civic lynx]

Iceland like this could be anything

There’s no clear objective or path here

It’s just a cool image

[wooden drift]

Such a good concept art, gosh

[civic lynx]

I do want to know what on earth that mech or robot is tho

It doesn’t resemble anything we’ve seen so far

[brittle sky]

Including what might be the 2nd ever canonically dead ow agent

[wooden drift]

Mining bot perhaps

It really could be anything

[civic lynx]

And its head has been blown off so I wonder who did it

It must’ve been done with a high powered weapon to break through the wall behind it as well

[brittle sky]

It does resemble something we've seen

https://imgur.com/a/overwatch-heroes-confirmed-eihhl

Should be first image

[civic lynx]

Imgur isn’t in the uk 🫩

I think I know what you’re referring to tho

[brittle sky]

Well someone with image permissions go paste it here

[brittle sky]

There we go, thanks

[civic lynx]

Tbh

That might just be an early echo

Echo originally was more robotic

[brittle sky]

That was a common assumption, but clearly it's the same head lolling to the side

[civic lynx]

They reuse concept art for other heroes in this as well

[brittle sky]

Either they're reusing that concept art for something unrelated and new, or using that art to represent a character that would have been in the recall files

[civic lynx]

It’s just placeholders ig

For early OW1 heroes

[brittle sky]

It's also the first we saw of sojourn

[civic lynx]

I do wonder if any of the other ones shown here are concept art for heroes that never made it or did eventually

[brittle sky]

And the red tank while originally just concept art that would be repurposed over time into Reinhardt, is likely aligned with it representing the old ow agent wildebeest

[shrewd pivot]

Seems like Chinese speakers are pointing out Anran does not have a Chengdu accent, and neither character speaks in the local dialect. That makes both Anran AND Wuyang bad voice reps for Chendu bc of incorrect accents, which is really unfortunate :(

I know characters have had language or accent issues before, ie Zarya badly pronounced Russian, Mercy has the wrong accent, etc but it's sad that Anran and Wuyang are shallow Wuxia rep, bad Wuxing rep, and bad Chengdu rep. Especially when we have characters like Illari who are actively preserving parts of Quechua languages, I wish overwatch took the time to find appropriate voice actors for new characters instead of "its a foriegn language, who cares?" bs

[brittle sky]

Some are generic enough that they likely went nowhere. Two have been used in the ana comic (kimiko and mirembe) and one went in to be a character in a heroes ascendant story?

So like, plenty are just reused concept art and not intended for anything, but one became a hero, and three have been ascribed to minor characters in side media, so I would not be surprised if the proto echo was indeed interpreted to be a mech or robot affiliated with ow, whose shot wreck (body?) serves as the background for Iceland. Iceland is where a formerly overwatch super prison was located, maybe it was a jailer.

[civic lynx]

If it was a jailer it’d be interesting to see where they got something powerful enough to shoot the mech’s head off (if it wasn’t just something on their body/their normal weapon)

[brittle sky]

The heads not off

It's just dropping to the left.

The shot it did take was through the chest, presumably at the same point as that hole in the dam

[civic lynx]

Oh I never noticed that

[civic lynx]

Yeah if stood upright it probably would’ve been hit through the chest

[brittle sky]

Yeah that's the resemblance to the still image I was going off, not the general white and blue theme.

[civic lynx]

It does look near identical to the image in recall so it would be cool if Winston or any other existing or ex ow member mentions seeing it when it was operational when on that map

[brittle sky]

Presumably something real powerful. Given we have talon on a rampage, they could have artillery shot the big mech/robot to bust out prisoners they wanted.

[civic lynx]

If a talon operative (or someone they’d like to be an operative) is in there vendetta would definitely find a weapon with that level of power from vishkar or maybe even the one the hashimoto are making

[brittle sky]

Hashimoto tech seems to follow the shimada design (given they just stole the shimadas designer) of anachronistic weapons with energy effects, but maybe someone shot a spirit dragon through the chest.

[shrewd pivot]

BTW the blonde lady with dark skin might suggest we might get a hero from melanesian islands one day, as there are locals there that have darker skin with an independently occurring genetic trait of blonde to reddish hair.

(It's a guess in the same logic of how if we had an orange hair with pale skin portrait you could guess the character might be Scottish, Irish, northern European, etc)

I would love a Papua hero one day (most languages of any country, birds of paradise and Cassowary are awesome inspos to pull from) but since Fiji was mentioned in passing by Ana already that will be my guess if we ever get a map or hero.

[wise grotto]

The big top corner robot was one of the first designs for orisa

[civic lynx]

It was also for rein I think

[wise grotto]

We see him here to

[wise grotto]

He existed seperate from rein for a period

[civic lynx]

When he had this type of design

The ow book also says wildebeeste was an early rein so they might’ve only briefly considered them as 2 separate heroes before binning it

[wise grotto]

Huh
Honestly it’s funny how two heroes came from one dude and that dude never got finished anyway

[brittle sky]

Wildebeest is a lore character (a bit player in declassified), so while those designs are all early rein, and we have no indication they would be made a hero, they do exist as a separate hero in the world at this point and that separate hero profile using concept art from those early iterations could very likely represent that character.

[brittle sky]

Mirembe. Established character.

[shrewd pivot]

I mention that about Melanisian islands, bc there's a lot of diversity in African ancestry that rarely gets portrayed in media and I think it would be awesome to showcase heroes in a global roster with such traits!

To me atleast, Sojourn's og 2d design seemed to be referencing southern African ancestry bc it depicted her with epicanthic folds in her 2d art. There are indigenous groups in southern Africa countries that hold very old ancestry and have epicanthic folds which is unique to that group.

[shrewd pivot]

Ah right mbmb my memory is bad I woke up a bit ago and am having a hard time waking up fully lol
Still, even with a Luganda name she represents Melanisian islands traits

[chrome summit]

The mecha is for sure one of the new ones. Bottom left is Reinhardt (i think), bottom right is obv, the one in the middle is echo?

[civic lynx]

Bottom left just looks like a scrapped robot

[wise grotto]

Honestly one thing I honestly really like about soj is that
She’s been modified so much she doesn’t get to age normally anymore it’s just her hair

[chrome summit]

Early version of Bastion maybe

[civic lynx]

This year’s meka hero is linked to dva

So they wouldn’t have been in reunion

Probably wasn’t even an adult when OW was originally active

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I hope one day we get a look look at her and her twin sister side by side to see the differences. We only got that far away comic shot that makes it hard to tell details beyond hair color.

I am still VERY curious as to what Sojourn actually has left of her og body, because in her cinematic she had entire extra torsos. I wonder if it's like a metal skeleton spine she has underneath that can fit torso armor over, or if she legit can just... take off her head entirely and put it on a spare parts body lol dullahan style.

She is robocop refs, so I can't say for sure either way, skull+spine with armor over, or dullahan style.

The nervous system (eyes, brain, spine) is a seperate immune system from the body so I presume her autoimmune disease impacted areas outside the nervous system.

[brittle sky]

Notably she's got a Ugandan name but both her surname (atim) and sons name (kweku) are Akan people in Ghana, so she likely married someone from that region.

[shrewd pivot]

Ty for the info!

[wise grotto]

I imagine all she has is her organs left so it’s more so the torso probably opens and she uses it for spare parts

He hairs clearly real so her heads probably got the most real parts but there’s also a chance she doesn’t have any normal organs at all left to

And she can literally just have her head attached to something that keeps her functional as the bare minimum

Sojs physiology is one of the coolest things going for her and I need to know more one day

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah that's my guess too. Like a head+spine with organs and necessary prosthesis like blood circulating (she has no real heartbeat iirc). But it's hard to tell bc she might have gotten more prosthesis over time to the point she might just be a brain/skull using prosthesis spines. Her eyes are cybernetic after all, meaning she has replaced nervous system organs before.

[brittle sky]

Organs are what have definitely been replaced

[wise grotto]

Oh yea but how many of them
How much soj is inside there

Is she essentially almost immortal at this point

[shrewd pivot]

How much is left of her organic body more like it! Real Sojourn remains in her nervous system neurons (brain neurons, and bits of the digestive tract have neurons technically)

[brittle sky]

"her spine, heart, lungs, and most of her bones were replaced with cybernetics."

[shrewd pivot]

Oh I could have sworn we didn't get confirmation on her spine mb. Dang that means she might be dullahaning things.

[brittle sky]

That's wiki, which can be wrong but this would be a weird thing to mischaracterize or hallucinate. Doc has pretty operant knowledge of the sojourn book which def had the answer. I'd get her reference.

[civic lynx]

This is the only thing I can find on the website but I’ll try and find the book as well

[shrewd pivot]

I know writing for ow isn't that deep but heart beats can sync between two that are touching and helps with empathy between individuals, I wonder if writers thought of Sojourn's lack of heart beat playing into an emotional disconnect or if writers just did the "you don't have a real heart" bit with her sister.

[shrewd pivot]

Tbf it might be from the Sojourn novel, if not De:Classified

[gusty cloak]

I don't follow lore much but what happened to the null sector world invasion that ramattra launched? Was he defeated?

[civic lynx]

I believe he was forced to retreat due to OW successfully pushing him out of a lot of places but he has a plan to come back and complete what he started eventually

[peak escarp]

he retreated because he got what he was after

he uploaded 90% of all omnics into the cloud to wait out humanity destroying itself

[wise grotto]

At some point im sure when Antarctica returns as a map well get expansions on rammattra

[civic lynx]

I think Antarctic returns in S2 (April) so we haven’t got long to wait for new ram lore if they do expand on him with it

[shrewd pivot]

Also I will not lie I almost dropped ow entirely after reading Sojourn's novel, Sojourn deserved a better novel. What an absolute mess of an allegory (the anti-cyborg discrimination was treated like an allegory for racism? But she's only a cyborg because of her disability, so it's ableism as an allegory for racism???!)

I get Sojourn is robocop refs but Sojourn's story viscerally describes her body being brutalized, in detail unlike anything in the lore prior, not at all what I expected from an overwatch story about Sojourn. I think people went into that novel looking for more about Sojourn's outlook and struggles (with an optumistic future for her) not a gratuitous torture of her.

and writing her sister being glad about omnic nannies was super unsettling/ignorant bc even IF it is just robots, the TOPIC of servant nannies holds WEIGHT in black communities, and then later having Sojourn view that mansion they used as refuge as if the mansion was so cool without ANY semblance of context/history or unease/nuanced take on a black woman character's opinion on finding refuge in a mansion that represents the history of enslaved servants (master bedroom, etc). Nada, only admiring the intricate carvings.

Like idk they needed to do more passes on that story, it is not how I ever in my life would write a black disabled woman in media lol. I still love Sojourn's character bc disabled rep having empowering roles in media is very dear to me but yeah def could have handled her character better.

[dense garnet]

They're trying so hard to push the Omnic racism narrative

[dense garnet]

This made me think, what if the conspiracy is what killed Mei's team in Antarctica and not the snowstorm?

[shrewd pivot]

Ig that's why I am so interested in Emre's lore of being a cyborg but being remotely controlled by the eye conspiracy. IF canonically certain cyborgs can actually be hacked, that could maybe explain why Sojourn faced so much discrimination and why Genji was so self loathing. (Genji's "am I more omnic or man" bit always felt silly bc he has a Human brain, he is still obviously human lol)

[civic lynx]

https://tenor.com/view/woody-woody-toy-story-sora-kh3-kh-gif-27223516

[dense garnet]

I mean, it sorta reminds me of Raiden from Metal Gear. He too was cyberized like Genji and had trouble coping with it for a while iirc

[shrewd pivot]

Oh snap? you're right bc what if the eye conspiracy isn't just explosions??? What if the eye conspiracy or another god ai is involved with ow weather anomalies too???? That could be plausible honestly bc a god ai could very well have weather machines or something

[wise grotto]

That wouldn’t make much sense to me imo
There’s no hints at it and that would almost make her backstory less of her own

[dense garnet]

I mean I was moreso thinking that the Conspiracy would be an expert hacker so it can malfunction the sleep pods

[wise grotto]

Cause there’s no reason for Mei in particular to be left alive then

Infact there’s probably definitely less skillfull people that could have been left alive

[dense garnet]

I feel like everyone's gonna eventually be connected to the Conspiracy in some way

[wise grotto]

I mean more so the organizations are all gonna have someone directly apart of it

Imo
I think it’ll be Mauga in talon who’s apart of it

Not counting emre

[dense garnet]

I think it'll be Moira

Or Max

[wise grotto]

Moira’s too self absorbed

She doesn’t do tech stuff either she’s very very focused on the one part of her life

Mauga is known for disappearing whenever he wants and nobody can really stop him

[shrewd pivot]

I could see a sabotage of the arctic base sure, but idk if hacking works tho bc how would Mei's pod be the only one unaffected?

I presumed it was that Mei's team was cryofrozen way past the time they should have been and died as a result, Mei being the only survivor.

[wise grotto]

Not just how more so WHY

Why one of the most skilled scientists to leave alive

Why not one of the less capable ones who could survive but probably not thrive and be a threat later

[shrewd pivot]

I mean. Why not kill them all while they are cryofrozen...? Why leave any alive.

[wise grotto]

Exactly that to

There’s too many why’s without much reason there for it to be the conspiracy over just another horrible disaster for a backstory

Winston/hammond have the other horribly depressing backstory

[shrewd pivot]

I get the feeling the storm anomaly that isolated the arctic base was either a result of something bigger that causes anomalies(same one that is causing anomalies on mars), or yeah it could have been an intentional storm caused if some malicious group has access to weather machines.

[wise grotto]

There’s would just be far bloodier if animated gorillas vs scientists isn’t exactly a calm death

[shrewd pivot]

Well yeah! But it's more like, it's really easy to kill a cryofrozen target lol. Why would a malicious group leave anyone alive if the goal was to kill them all, just turn off all the cryo pods and make it look like an electrical short caused by the storm.

I get the feeling the only way it could be sabotage is if the storm itself was intentionally created, or if everyone but Mei was a target.

[polar osprey]

I always thought he was just doing odd jobs for more cash

[shrewd pivot]

He's very much the "live today like it's your last one" motto

[wise grotto]

He probably is but it also gives him@the chance to be apart of the conspiracy without any suspicion

[shrewd pivot]

I hope the eye conspiracy is more than just non sapient Chernobog God ai running things lol.

Like that's just Anubis again, but this time Chernobog god ai is organizing towards a future, instead of Anubis outright attacking to secure the future.

Well actually hm. Did the eye conspiracy exist before the awakening? If not, maybe Aurora awoke the god ai Chernobog, granting it sapience? That could be something that differs Chernobog from Anubis then.

That is, IF Chernobog even is the eye conspiracy lol

[edgy tree]

I think Doomfist is connected to it ngl

[edgy tree]

tbh Chernobog more or less accepted the fact he got shut off

would be weird for it to suddently be the reason Overwatch fell

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah my guess was, if the writers were smart: in a big twist Doomfist's forceful pressure to make humanity evolve fast, was actually to prepare humanity for a future threat indicated by the eye conspiracy. As in, he was pushing humanity to the next civ stage to have a chance at surviving the incoming threat.

Project Titan (MMO scrapped that became overwatch) involved players traveling back in time to important historical dates to do hero work, so if overwatch was aiming for an eventual MMO (crawl ow1, walk ow2, run ow3 mmo) it wouldn't suprise me if there was a larger threat to the world that made everyone, (Overwatch and Talon and Junkers and Null sector), group up to fight against. Easily something like terminator style of an anubis controlled future attacking our present, or something akin to Valorant with timeline invaders. Tracer already confirmed timelines exist in overwatch in De:Classified. And multiple timelines would explain an MMO with repeated player characters (ie, two tracers on a single team already have voice line interactions).

[edgy tree]

yeah Doom is really secretive and it woudn't be suprizing for him to know these things

him helping null sector to get the world battle ready would make a lotta sense besides the basic motto of "war = stronger people"

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I have to think Doomfist being recontextualized as "oh wait, he's evil and wrong but we can understand his ASAP approach if he's trying to prepare humanity as a whole for a bigger threat" villain would make a LOT of sense for his character

[edgy tree]

you could somewhat explain him wanting to lose to Vendetta as well with that

the world thinks he's dead and Talon still has a strong confident leader

[hollow oar]

im glad that emre's a dps because that means i get to play him, but honestly i feel like he would've been so much cooler lore-wise if they made him a support

[edgy tree]

nahhhhh

[hollow oar]

yeahhhhh

[edgy tree]

Tank would've made more sense than support if he wasn't going to be a dps

[tight bay]

i’m really sad doom fist got killed by vendetta

[edgy tree]

he tanked Freja bolts like crazy and caused serious damage

[tight bay]

rein would never

[edgy tree]

not dead

[tight bay]

rein is to cool to get killed by vendetta

[shrewd pivot]

Maybe!

Og overwatch was very much a consolidation of power, and when Overwatch fell a lot of harm filled the void. If Doomfist opposes Overwatch AND plans to prep humanity for a bigger threat, Doomfist would want earth to be independently strong, not reliant on only one group: Overwatch, to save the day. It works well into his philosophy.

[tight bay]

i really like reinhardt

he’s really cool

[foggy lynx]

Theres no way hes dead

[edgy tree]

also now that he's "dead" he can work on his plans in complete secrecy while Talon still has a strong leader

[hollow oar]

i mean ig i could see and understand tank, but i dont think he has the build for it. but going just by what he did in the comics, tank def makes sense
but having him be a support would be cool considering wasn't he on a search and rescue team when he was in overwatch? his skillset was helping people. and plus, it would be nice to have another villainous support

[edgy tree]

He got taken over by a murderous ai and made into a living weapon

doesn't scream "support" to me

[hollow oar]

actually wait yeah nvm i see your point now

[civic lynx]

He most likely isn’t

They wouldn’t have commissioned blizzcon artwork with him as the OW rep if he’s meant to be dead and buried

[edgy tree]

They just did the good old imply he died but don't show his body thing you see in movies

[shrewd pivot]

Arguably, Vendetta's "well oiled machine" might actually work against Doomfist's outlook though. Independently strong requires not relying on a single group to lead, and Vendetta suppressing new excellence (Vendetta would sabotage Efi, not fund her imo) this would actively weaken Earth if the bigger threat came in and took out Vendetta, leaving Talon members scrambling for the scraps.

Doomfist hates nepotism because that's not true strength (that can protect earth from a larger threat, if the larger threat hypothesis is true)

[edgy tree]

He will most likely stop whatever she's trying to do eventually

but right now her attacks on Helix and Overwatch are getting the world even more war ready

Vendetta is also militarizing territories with anti aircraft stuff

She's also working on her "gladiators" which are meant to be unkillable somehow like the old soldier program

[shrewd pivot]

For sure, Vendetta will be defeated by the end.

It would be hilarious if in the end Vendetta and Doonfist draw but Overwatch ends up capturing them both (according to Doomfist's plan). And Doomfist just KNOWS Talon will chose to break him out, and not Vendetta lmafoo

[edgy tree]

the 3 members that left with him (technically)

Max might actually get what he deserves finally

[shrewd pivot]

I have a feeling Maximilien is doing a power play. Like, manipulating humans into fighting themselves. My guess, He either plans to manipulate humanity into fighting itself into squalor as a power play, or Maximilien will flee and snitch on Talon to Overwatch.

[edgy tree]

Max's ultimate move: le snitch

[shrewd pivot]

I think that gives up a lot of power he worked for, but if push comes to shove he definitely will. He already revealed Doomfist's location once before to overwatch

[edgy tree]

and gave away info to Vendetta to save his ass

[shrewd pivot]

Yup

[edgy tree]

But yeah I could see the end of Vendetta just not having actual allies to help u out in need

[shrewd pivot]

Fits with the "interpersonal connections save" motif in overwatch

[edgy tree]

Doom had an actual relation with his team members

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah. I like Doomfist more as an antagonist bc his evil philosophy allows discussions about right and wrong. "That is wrong, but why is it wrong, how so? By defeating Doomfist doesn't he technically 'win' because the strongest are now leading?"

Vendetta is just, flat obvious evil, no questions, no debates. "Bloodline superiority is wrong. Yep."

[edgy tree]

Yeah Dooms views are not.... COMPLETLY wrong and the way he's going about it are EXTREMLY questionable but it's hard to call him completly evil like u can with Vendetta

it's not like he wants conflict to strenghten just himself and his group he wants the world to be stronger hell he's proud of Winston and Orisa in some of their interractions

[shrewd pivot]

I get what you mean, though Doomfist is absolutely completely evil villain, he is just nuanced evil and an evil that is community focused instead of individual focused. "Social Darwinism" is an evil villain philosophy that asserts it is moral to be violently ableist.

[edgy tree]

Yeah I do also see him as evil just much less than the other Villians we see

[dense garnet]

Doom's ideology is correct, it's just his methods that aren't

The Omnic Crisis is a prime example because that event made the world stronger with advancements of tech and the creation of organizations like Overwatch

[edgy tree]

But instead of trying to find a way to replicate smth like that a bit more.... peacefully he just went nah let's do ww4

[dense garnet]

At his core, Doom just enjoys being in conflict

[edgy tree]

I'd say that's closer to Mauga

[wise grotto]

Max and ramm secrete alliance is my wildest theory

[shrewd pivot]

Nah, meritocracy leadership based solely on ability, asserting excellence = worthy, means anyone with a disability will have no voice and be killed off. There's nothing wrong with wanting to uplift competent leaders, but leaving elderly, children, animals, etc at the whims of violent oppression is not a healthy society. Also, there will always be constant war with Doomfist's philosophy.

[dense garnet]

Even before becoming a member of Talon, he'd pick so many fights with people just to improve his skills

[edgy tree]

Ram hates Max

[wise grotto]

Ram is meant to wait and max is meant to push the chaos

[edgy tree]

He calls him the one omnic he isn't willing to save as he represents the worst in humanity

[wise grotto]

Didn’t say it was a good theory
And it being secret would at least make that part understood

[dense garnet]

I'm not even talking about Doomfist's leadership. Even in real life, you see examples of Doomfist's ideology come true such as with the Manhatten Project creating the atom bomb

[wise grotto]

I specified wildest csuse it’s such a slim chance of being true I’d be more suprised it’s right

[shrewd pivot]

I thought about that too, until Ramattra made it clear he sees Maximilien as a traitor to omnics. I feel Ramattra would only make a deal with Maximilien if it was dire, because Ramattra doesn't trust Maximilien to keep the wellbeing of omnickind in mind, only Maximilien's selfish interests. Maximilien would probably try to screw over the safety of the subjugated omnics if it benefited Maximilien well enough.

[shrewd pivot]

The atom bomb and it's impact on humanity was arguably one of the greatest examples as to why "social darwinism" is not an ethical philosophy

[wise grotto]

Oh true
I don’t think it’s very possible like at all

[dense garnet]

And despite that, it also invented nuclear energy, which I'm pretty sure is considered the safest power source today

[wise grotto]

The bomb came after the nuclear energy was discovered if I recall

The bomb was the bi product

[cosmic trench]

Did you all know that mercy is trans x

[wise grotto]

She isn’t this is a serious lore channel

[dense garnet]

Bastion is trans

He has like 3 configurations

[shrewd pivot]

The technology was also used to kill millions.
Social Darwinism is not an ethical philosophy. You get progress in certain areas but you get millions of innocents harmed to do so. "Ends justify the means" bs

[dense garnet]

I never said it was ethical

It's just effective

If it was somehow ethical, you'd see it happen more often, but obviously, creating wars is bad

[edgy tree]

forgor to mention that lol

[shrewd pivot]

It's a bit more complicated, harnessing power and using it for military weaponry occured within the same decade, but a bigger focus on harnessing the power for energy came later.

[wooden drift]

As in transformer?

[dense garnet]

Robots in disguise

[wooden drift]

Im more interested about what the hell is your pfp

[shrewd pivot]

There are more effective/ethical ways to get progress is what I mean.
Healthy cooperation to reach a goal first, is more powerful a tool for change than pinning every individual against eachother where sabotage can occur and slow down progress.

Besides, atomic bomb is a very heavy topic and not an ethical outcome. Nuclear weapons are not "survival of the fittest" atp it's mutually assured destruction if even one person does something stupid. Many games cover the topic, like fallout.

Even the Junkers in ow cover the dangers of "humanity's negligence" in that regard tbf

[wooden drift]

Ye, nukes are the worst thing we ever made tbh

[cosmic trench]

Dm me for more pictures x

[wooden drift]

N-no????

[wooden drift]

Wow, had no idea mentioning that one rule would automatically flagged me

[edgy tree]

Bruh there's people in the overwatch chat thinking they're gonna remove Doomfist from the game because of the cinematic LMAO

[wooden drift]

Thats silly

[wooden drift]

Some people are just stupid

Unfortunate that it's a loud minority

[cosmic trench]

Did you know that sigma isn’t even considered a talon agent

[wooden drift]

Ye, we know

[wise grotto]

He’s an experiment has been mostly the whole time

[cosmic trench]

Omfg dweebs

[wooden drift]

Well thats just rude

[cosmic trench]

Exactly he’s just viewed as a weapon

[wooden drift]

Let us nerd about the thing

[wise grotto]

They haven’t exactly been subtle about that

[cosmic trench]

I mean he’s still a person

People would just assume he’s like widowmaker

[shrewd pivot]

Broke: Bastion is transgender coded because transforming

Bespoke: Bastion is transgender coded because Bastion did not have any pronouns until Bastion met Torbjörn. Once Torbjörn stopped being anti-omnic and adopted Bastion, Bastion accepted he/him pronouns. Aurora canonically chose her own pronouns of she/her. Many omnics have nonbinary identities like Nameless and Lynx Seventeen.

Obviously omnics aren't human, but by definition of "not identifying with the gender assigned at birth" all omnics that chose personal pronouns are by definition "trans". Orisa is not this, for example, because Efi designed Orisa as she/her lady robot.

[edgy tree]

Actually speaking about Orisa

[shrewd pivot]

That's an interesting foil dynamic, yeye

[edgy tree]

how is she actually concious?

like Echo was made to copy people so it makes sense she'd act human be Efi made orisa and she acts like her own person

[wise grotto]

Soldier outright says it in a voice line and everyone other then sombra has treated him as such in game

[shrewd pivot]

Orisa and Echo are seemingly not awakened sapient omnics like how Zenyattai is, instead Echo and Orisa are ai like how Athena is ai.

[cosmic trench]

Preach

[edgy tree]

yeah but they seem strangely aware

well Orisa mostly

[wise grotto]

Yea I think they’re fully meant to signify opposites in as many ways as they can be

[cosmic trench]

Overwatch supports unethical science

[shrewd pivot]

Tis the future, Chaptgpt got better lol. Also Echo is self learning ai and learns from human behavior, itmakes sense she seems lively.

[wise grotto]

Even down to vendettas armoured arm is on the opposite side of her body as doomfist where

[edgy tree]

yeah I'm mostly talking about Orisa

[wise grotto]

Supported

Past tense

[edgy tree]

Echo still got that AI feel to her voice but Orisa shows emotions a LOT

[cosmic trench]

Still does

[edgy tree]

which is what gets me

[shrewd pivot]

Orisa is like Athena imo. It's just that Orisa interacting with Efi probably has her sounding more lively. Orisa in overwatch 1 was VERY "baymax"y

[wise grotto]

Overwatch currently doesn’t have any science branches at all
It’s literally just a crew of people called back by Winston or recruited by cass

[edgy tree]

Just looked more into her lore

[wise grotto]

Right now Overwatch is literally just a task force

[edgy tree]

She's a self learning AI unlike Echo that was made to mimic

[shrewd pivot]

(Looks at JPC) /j

[dense garnet]

Overwatch is more like a group of organized vigilantes

[edgy tree]

Which is a good reason for why Orisa acts so much like a child

[cosmic trench]

That still utilises those that have undergone unethical and experimental treatment

[edgy tree]

Though they aren't illegal at this point in the lore

[cosmic trench]

Basically if it helps them they have no issue to carry on using it

[wise grotto]

That’s not them supporting the things that happened in there past that’s just them having people who are actively working for them who’ve had bad stuff happen

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Orisa has personality modules that Efi can edit iirc.

I miss overwatch 1 Orisa personality 💔 I much preferred an optumistic baymax over a serious personality. Would have been very funny if ow2 personality was just a mode and afterwards Orisa would say "was that an effective intimidation protocol?" to keep the fun campy aspect of her baymax-y archetype. Ow1 Orisa represented childlike hope from Efi and it was very sweet.

[wise grotto]

No cause none of them are current in operation ruining lives

[dense garnet]

They said they were going to shut OW down again after the Null Sector invasion, but after the Talon raid, that probably won't be happening now

[cosmic trench]

Not all had bad things happen tho, what about moira?

[wise grotto]

Winston is like the only actual example rn in Overwatch and the lunar base is horrible

[edgy tree]

she still has her moments in interractions

[wise grotto]

Moira was disbanded from the original science division of the original Overwatch for her cruel experiments and just did more once she was with talon

[edgy tree]

Like her being sorry for cancelling beat or Mei talking about her growth

[wise grotto]

Nobody who dealt with Moira’s experiments are in ows team and ow would rather Moira be arrested then anything else

[dense garnet]

Blackwatch too

[edgy tree]

Yeah but the act wasn't uknow active at that point

[dense garnet]

Moira was a member of Blackwatch

[shrewd pivot]

True but she's way more unironically serious / stern in ow2.

[cosmic trench]

But they still use her creations and offer no support in returning them back to normal, they still use them

[edgy tree]

Ig Efi was forced to change her due to all the uknow

Invasions in less than 10 years

[shrewd pivot]

I think it's very fair to point out the og overwatch corruption. Tracer's accident, Moira's unethical science, Torbjörn ignoring Mercy's ONE rule to not use her technology for harm by Torbjörn making Ana's biotic rifle, Blackwatch Genji, etc

Closest thing to new overwatch is Winston chosing to remain with overwatch but that's his choice, and he was born out of unethical science, not willingly participating in it.

[wise grotto]

True but that was whine she was in that science division still and also still apart of t he old version of Overwatch

[wise grotto]

Her creations are reaper and widow

[dense garnet]

No, she was shut down, and then Reaper invited her to Blackwatch after

[wise grotto]

Those are the current people aside from Moira herself and sigma who are the people she’s affected

None of Overwatches current members are experiments of Moira’s

Genji has been modified and upgraded cyberneticslly a lot since the last time he even worked with Moira and has been improved drastically (and that wasn’t Moira’s handiwork anyway)

[cosmic trench]

Not just her creations alone but in general, soldier still remain changed and they’ve offered nothing to fix him back to normal

[shrewd pivot]

I think the most ironic corruption in og overwatch yet was Ana begging Pharah to not join Overwatch, but Ana directly recruited Freja who is the same age as Pharah lmafo

[brittle sky]

Hey, she at least let freja finish college

[wise grotto]

Soldier isn’t on current ow team and also literally wasn’t from moiras experiments

The scientist who made the super soldiers is in Australia

[brittle sky]

Victoria Naughton

[cosmic trench]

Idk why you keep bringing up moira

[wise grotto]

Soldier is currently still a lone wolf

[shrewd pivot]

"My daughter? Nonono. Someone else's daughter? Perfect." Like Ana, lady, what are you doing...

[wise grotto]

But also signed up to be turned into a super soldier

[brittle sky]

That was mostly a shot at winston "let's give a cheaky token to some college students while we are under ongoing ijc investigation"

[cosmic trench]

I’m saying that overwatch in the past was aware and funded unethical science, only now they claim not to support it, but they still utilise hero’s that are a result of the unethical science

[wise grotto]

You brought up the dude who’s not on current Overwatch to who signed up to just be physically augmented
There’s nothing morally corrupt about soldiers augmentations he was just given things that made him stronger and faster

[wise grotto]

THEY ARENT a organization anymore they’re not even the same kind of group

[cosmic trench]

Nothing wrong doesn’t equal it’s ethical

[wise grotto]

There a task force of people who want to better the world and fight forces like talon

[shrewd pivot]

LOOOOL

Sojourn: ...Whatcha got there.

Winston, with Anran and Wuyang: A smoothie

[wise grotto]

They’re literally only the same via a few members and name

Constantly comparing the current Overwatch having members who signed up for things and clearly aren’t wanting them changed as an example of current Overwatch funding unethical science doesn’t work

[shrewd pivot]

Correct. I hope the newly formed overwatch keeps this in mind and actively fights corruption.

[wise grotto]

Especially when your only direct example is soldier who isn’t on the task force

[brittle sky]

So the argument here is it is unethical to allow winston to be in the field, because his nature as an uplifted gorilla is the result of some of lucheng's unethical experiments on horizon? Sorry, late to the party, just wanted to clarify what I was getting into? Or is this purely looking at og overwatch's utilization of SEP vets and people (Gabe and Moira) who had been subject to some of Moira's experiments?

[wise grotto]

And also has literally nothing he wants reversed it would be more unethical to force the changes into him or Winston then to let them live there lives

[cosmic trench]

No but it proves that overwatch supported it in a time of need, what’s to say they won’t do the same again. Plus Winston’s lab is literally not legally regulated

[shrewd pivot]

Genji is on overwatch too, his cybernetics imo were an unethical manipulation of Genji to be turned into a killing machine.

[cosmic trench]

It’s only ethical because he didn’t cause harm but that’s a very fine line when conducting experiments that’s aren’t legally regulated

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed! Which is why I hope new overwatch takes focus to not allow corruption to grow like it did in og overwatch.

"War doesn't change, men must change." Kind of deal.

[cosmic trench]

Very true

[wise grotto]

Because they’re actively just a task force now not a world wide military operation they actively have no reason or way to do that

[cosmic trench]

But they could

[brittle sky]

Counterpoint: their next recruit is Vernand Sainclair

[wise grotto]

And like we know nothing about how labs are legally regulated in Overwatch

[wise grotto]

So everyone is always evil csuse they could choose to do the evil stuff then

That’s the argument

The same stuff that made them actively disband the first time to mind you

[cosmic trench]

No but they’re aware that people are victim to unethical science and do nothing about it

[shrewd pivot]

.....no. it's that "huh, og overwatch had corruption that ultimately destroyed og overwatch. What is stopping corruption from happening this time around with new overwatch?" Which is a very valid point imo

[cosmic trench]

Exactlyyy

[wise grotto]

What would they do
Specifically
We don’t have a reason to think things like the super soldier program was outright unethical either
We know moiras was but that was when Overwatch was a worldwide military group
Right now judging them by the possibility it’ll happen in the future isn’t exactly fair to what the current Overwatch team is

[shrewd pivot]

I would like to believe that an optumistic future overwatch doesn't make the same mistakes over and over and over again. I would like to have hope in humanity to improve, not be perfect, but to improve.

[edgy tree]

yeah... being told we either fix ur body but u work for us or u die wasn't exactly good for out cyber boy

[wise grotto]

The super soldier program we know like nothing about
Everyone from Winston’s tests are dead except him and Hammond and both are living as good of lives for eachother as they possibly could

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah. He was mentally unwell when he agreed in the hospital to the cybernetics. I would argue it was manipulation.

[wise grotto]

Genji is still being improved to be better off as he is now

[edgy tree]

Especially with Winston calling the shots

[wise grotto]

He’s gotten fully upgraded 2 times over now

Oh yea that’s the other thing the most ethical possibke persons in charge

[peak escarp]

Winston isn't in charge

Sojourn is

[brittle sky]

I think the first and one of the persistently most interesting questions of Overwatch the setting is "Is an organization like Overwatch a good ideas?" - it takes the saturday morning fantasy of highly powerful international organization with broad fiat and amazing resources, and speaks to both the things it was able to accomplish but also the issues it creates, the corruption and overreach its power seemed to inevitably lead to, and shows its legacy as decidedly mixed. Then it poses all the issues caused by its fall and vacuum.

I think overwatch the series has often shied away from the thornier parts of those questions, and often presented winston's foundation of neo-ow as an unalloyed good, on the grounds that because none of the troublemakers are involved this time it will be getter (a 'few bad apples' perspective). But whether we see the bad of overwatch as purely the result of flawed individuals' failures, and that the same system with better individuals will be better, or if there might be something wrong with the system or project itself is an area of valid and interesting discussion.

[edgy tree]

I'd say she's a part of their legal side

She didn't even officially rejoin ow

[peak escarp]

she's Overwatch's acting commander

[brittle sky]

That's a bit fuzzy though, I will say. Sojourn has tactical command and has assumed what seems like legal influence, but clearly Winston has some kind of authority to recruit new members

[shrewd pivot]

It killed most participants and was genetic experimentation on humans to create living human weapons that are physically stronger than the average human. Both are highly unethical. I get it was for drastic wartime, but within context of Captain America and the actual things such a story references about USA history, we can effectively say the super soldier program was definitely not "purely ethical".

[peak escarp]

Winston says he finds it easier to ask her forgiveness than to ask her permission, implying that he doesn't have the authority to send out invites without asking Sojourn

[wise grotto]

I was unaware of the deaths part at all

[edgy tree]

Or he just looks up to her since she was the commander

She isn't a part of Overwatch currently

[peak escarp]

I bet the legendary skin she gets will be called Commander Chase or something

[brittle sky]

Right, but how firm the chain of command is given he seems like he'll get away with it is somewhat wiggly

[peak escarp]

well she sure acts like she is

[edgy tree]

yeah we gotta wait for her to officially say it tho

[brittle sky]

Someone who has declassified on hand - was it just deaths, or were there also people left dehabilitated by it? I might be mixing up my super soldier stories.

[edgy tree]

rn she might just be trying to help out Winston

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed 100% very well put! That's why Doomfist being against Overwatch's "one global power" is very compelling as an antagonist. Sure he rules Talon, but he does so in a less organized way than how someone like Vendetta does.

"Absolute power corrupts Absolutely" kind of discussion

[brittle sky]

"There's just another crisis, guys, I just gotta stay in charge of Overwatch. Now if the galactic senate can just grant me a few more war powers..."

[shrewd pivot]

iirc only a few survived the procedure. Jack and Gabe were of the known who survived the super soldier program.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah ngl as much as I love "Thoughless Gods" as a scifi horror piece, MAN does that ruin parts about Winston.

Winston isn't a Gorilla that escaped his kind possibly suffering from genetic issues causing rage (that actively bullied him, meaning he def had to leave or he would probably been killed) overthrowing kind scientists, actively hoping for a better future with humanity, wanting to protect found family like Tracer and others. He's an abused animal test subject with rose tinted glasses (seriously, Stockholm syndrome, he named himself after Dr.Winston) about the abuse, living in guilt he left Hammond for dead in an act of cowardice. His hope that was so core to overwatch's magic is now recontextualized as #hopium and naive hope that causes more trouble than good by recalling and inviting agents like Aran and Wuyang against Sojourn's orders

[wise grotto]

Ok
I don’t think Overwatch is gonna even make it global organization level ever again though
Like
There’s nothing pointing to them actually ending up like that especially since son would absolutely despise the idea of doing that again

[edgy tree]

I feel like some of problems Overwatch faced later on was because of them deciding to just hide away Reaper and making him the guy who does the dirty work while putting Soldier as the face of Overwatch It definitly caused a lot of the Tenstion we saw later on

that was also when Moira did her experiments on him

[shrewd pivot]

Even if overwatch does not go global again, the IJC is funding freaking Helix to overtake Overwatch's global roles after og overwatch disbanded. Helix are guns for hire mercs, not ethical enforcement, especially after Helix is siding with Oasis security ai in Morocco, etc.

Overwatch just... allowing privately hired guns for hire to station the globe isn't very ethical of them. They should try to fix the harm done, and srt up better systems more resistant to corruption and maintain safety.

[brittle sky]

I think while that does shift our perspective, I think there are good parts of that - it raises how Winston's hope, while central to the themes of the story, can be misplaced or misinterpreted. It offers a chance for alternative perspectives (Hammond for now, though the teased Hypatia seems a ready source as well) to emerge. It speaks to the recurrent them of humanity failing to recognize humanity in whatever it can consider as inhuman.

Also sure would've been nice if they followed up on Horizon in more detail before introducing an entirely unrelated lucheng space crime, buuuuuut

[shrewd pivot]

For sure but
Idk, Winston's cinematic was so special as a hopeful future, contextualizing that cinematic as Winston just romanticizing his abuse/"glory days" that never existed really soils the optumistic future vibes of overwatch's setting

[edgy tree]

I alvays thought Winston was just treated better than the other Gorillas I mean why else would he not join the rebelion?

[shrewd pivot]

He was actively picked on by the other space apes. He was not accepted into the troop. Probably would have been killed if she stayed.

[edgy tree]

dr.Winston gave him his fav pb and his glasses that he continues to use later

[edgy tree]

oh yeah right.....

[shrewd pivot]

And Dr.Winston was not an ethical doctor, he worked on the space apes project and worked around scientists that actively abused the subjects as explained in Thoughless Gods.

[edgy tree]

maybe it was because he didn't hate humans? Experience the shared abuse the others did

[edgy tree]

Never said he wasn't

[brittle sky]

I think the implication was a lot of the most unethical measures was because they perceived the other apes as unreasonable or uncooperative, so the harsher measures came in as control and punishment. Winston as both obviously very intelligent and a social outcast would have been seen as more cooprative and they would have had no need to do punitive measures to.

[edgy tree]

YEAH

[dusk granite]

dumb question, is the hashimoto necessarily evil if Mizuki appears on team overwatch in the talon vs overwatch art

[edgy tree]

Mizuki leaves them

[brittle sky]

They are. His appearance there both represents he's infiltrating yokai for the hashimoto and they heavily foreshadow him switching sides by going native

[dusk granite]

i missed that detail wtf

[edgy tree]

The hashimoto said he wasn't "cut out for the job"

[dusk granite]

[brittle sky]

It hasn't happened yet, and the image was likely done just to balance out the picture

[edgy tree]

• he's hanging out with Kiriko and the rest which might be having a positive influence on him

[shrewd pivot]

"Never accept the world as it appears to be, dare to see what it could be."

Og overwatch: really beautiful optimism, a scene over earth from space, never lose hope.

Ow2 Thoughts Gods recontextualization: ends justify the means, Dr. Winston was doing unethical science because he thought the information from the abuse could be used to do great things. Winston is romanticizing past days of abuse, and "glory days" of overwatch that never existed.

[brittle sky]

but in their introduction they heavily highlight he will have divided loyalties between his hashimoto handlers and the yokai he's meant to infiltrate

[brittle sky]

I mean, in the 10 years since that cinematic I think public perception on charismatic tech visionaries who promise to break new ground and change the world, damn the consequences might be a little different.

[edgy tree]

Yeah we just gotta have to wait for them to leave

[wise grotto]

I don’t think Overwatch has the power to get rid of helix right now
Like at all
They’re a very small crew that’s about to hsve there actual home base destroyed whatever used to be there’s is far outside of there own power at the moment

[pearl halo]

It already got destroyed, and im guessing some are hurt

So cut their current man power in half

[shrewd pivot]

My issue is more so that Winston's optumism is painted as incorrect and harmful after Thoughless Gods

Prior in ow1 Soldier76 handled the "stop chasing glory days that don't exist" while Winston represented not giving up on the idea the world could be a better place (narratively written as true and strong and real in overwatch)

The Thoughtless Gods recontextualization makes it out that Winston is not strong, but weak for clinging to glory days that don't exist. That he is wrong to recall against Sojourn's orders even if Winston thinks its right. Especially with that latest audio vid, it feels like they are flanderizing Winston as the "lets get the gang back together!" Guy™

[pearl halo]

Also still no news abt soldier right? The dude still wandering the world

Same for hanzo

[dusk granite]

i think the last news of soldier was around with ana right

it was a book

[pearl halo]

Which was a while ago no

[dusk granite]

damn

[shrewd pivot]

Illari, Soldier76, and Sombra had a story, Illari "deletes"her people's records with Sombra's help to prevent inti tech getting into the wrong hands. Soldier76 finally let's go of Vincent.

[pearl halo]

Im gonna guess him and reyes gonna meet up in the wild lmao

[graceful dove]

It’s not that deep

[edgy tree]

There already was a book bout Hanzo

He's gonna work with Kiri

[pearl halo]

Oh to beat the hashimoto?

W ngl

[edgy tree]

Ana left Soldier

[shrewd pivot]

In overwatch 1 it was lol Winston's optimism was portrayed as strength to dare to have hope.

[pearl halo]

I think you mean optimism no?

[shrewd pivot]

Sorry typo!

[dusk granite]

ngl what if geiger was a actual hero

[pearl halo]

All good lol

[pearl halo]

Who is that again

[dusk granite]

junker who fought against jq to be junker king and lost

only appears in the cinematic

[pearl halo]

Junker healer when 🥀🥀🥀

[shrewd pivot]

Real.

[pearl halo]

The king before her right? Was a pos ngl

[dusk granite]

no no no

he's the skinny dude with red armor

[pearl halo]

Ooh i think ive seen him once

[dusk granite]

he got wacked in the head by junker queen's axe when she turned it lol

[pearl halo]

He looks cool af ngl

[brittle sky]

Last we saw him was the short story Lucky Man, where he at the guidance of Sombra met up with Illari and stole some information on the Inti Warriors from Oasis, which was contracted to extract data on the solar threading process. Most of it was reflections on his sense of duty and how that isolated him (including being the cause of his relationship with Vincent falling apart), and contrasting that with Illari with a similar sense of carrying a burden. His goals was still investigating the fall of overwatch, which at least Sombra portrays as related to the conspiracy.

Junkers are an easy source of funky looking guys. Just look at the promo fighters of the scrap yard. While I think that ecology deserves being returned to (and hopefully made into something of its own story rather than just fodder when we need bad guys elsewhere), I don't think they need to stick to just a named or preestablished character. Rather because it's such vibrant and wacky aesthetic they could make most characters work, so might as well do a character that has an interesting and unique role.

[woeful turtle]

DOMINA IS SYMMETRA'S MOTHER!!!

[jade linden]

Doomfist shouldn't have lost.

😭

[past copper]

Well, as Omnic Post thought of, and honestly as I figured myself

Doomfist might have underestimated Vendetta and he hasn't seen any real action in a while

The last time Akande was in a fight was in Numbani against Orisa and Lúcio and the help of Efi too

And even then, he clearly didn't fight them on the same level he fought Overwatch

Since then, Akande has been hiding while keeping Talon hidden in the shadows. Watching as Null Sector initiated their global invasion while foolishly allowing Overwatch to reunite

Say what you will about Doomfist, but we can all agree sitting back and letting your enemy reunite is a foolish thing to do

[dense garnet]

Doomfist's defeat makes sense. We just don't like that he was defeated by someone introduced into the lore 2 months ago with no build-up and satisfying impact

Maybe if Vendetta was added to OW2 a year or 2 ago, there'd be less backlash

[past copper]

Well, Doomfist hadn't fought anyone in like 2 or 4 years by thus point. All while Vendetta has fought and built up her own empire every day ever since her father was killed

[dense garnet]

Yeah but we didn't know she existed

They just kinda inserted her and her backstory in and just kinda had us accept it

[umbral sky]

If he was still dps he may still had a chance

[past copper]

In short. Doomfist sat on his ass acting cocky while Vendetta worked harder and grew stronger

[dense garnet]

Like I said it makes sense why he lost

But he still lost to someone who was only introduced 2 months ago with no build-up

She's, like, too new in the roster to have this big an impact

[pearl halo]

Vendetta is an OC made by somoene that had enough of blizz not moving lore

[dense garnet]

You don't just introduce a character and immediately dethrone the main antagonist with them

Ven should've been added to ow like a year ago

[pearl halo]

At least introduced in the story yeah

[past copper]

It's not like Doomfist was trying to move the story forward

[umbral sky]

I feel like bringing the retribution game mode from archives has some relevance now if they were able to

[pearl halo]

Tbf ow were sitting and chilling in gib too

No action from them either

[dense garnet]

Everyone was just chilling with their thumbs up their asses after Null Sector retreated lol

[pearl halo]

Null sector won btw

So they did nothing after a villain got what he wanted lmao

[past copper]

Bc what are they supposed to do? They don't know where Null Sector even is

And if that wasn't bad enough, the UN is looking to shut them down again. All bc they couldn't protect the subjugated omnics from being taken by Null Sector

[dense nebula]

Do we all expect for Vendetta to suck at leading Talon?

she does not seem to have the know how or intelligence to run Talon and keep connections happy

[dense garnet]

It's hard to tell from just her first day in office

But she knows how to use people

[past copper]

Not really. She's doing the smart thing by expanding Talon's reach, mobilizing to take out her enemies swiftly, and infiltrate heavily guarded locations to get whatever she wants from them

[dense nebula]

Well she lost her 3 best infiltrators

[dense garnet]

Because they're diehard loyalists lol

[past copper]

But got two better ones in Freja and Emre

[dense garnet]

And yeah Freja + Emre are probably better infiltrators than Widow and Reaper

Losing Sombra was a bit of a blow though

[dense nebula]

Better than the immortal guy who can go ghost?

[dense garnet]

Clearly not immortal if he lost almost all his fights so far

[past copper]

Reaper was on her kill list over her dad. You think he was gonna stay?

[dense nebula]

That’s not what immortal means lol

[dense garnet]

Immortal doesn't mean unstoppable either

But yeah, Reaper is sloppy

[past copper]

Would you stay in the same room with someone who wanted and can and will kill you?

[dense garnet]

I don't even think she cares who killed her father

[dense nebula]

You can’t kill Reaper

Like you literally can’t

[dense garnet]

Reaper can definitely die, he's just extremely durable

[dense nebula]

I’m pretty sure his healing factor is better than Wolverine or Deadpool’s

[past copper]

He isn't immortal. If you don't know what the word means, don't use it kid

[dense garnet]

I already said yesterday that Reaper's healing factor is worse than Wade's

Wade's healing factor is instantaneous and sometimes he doesn't even feel pain from getting shot or injured. Reaper on multiple occasions got physically injured and was forced to retreat at least once because of it. He was left limping after getting tossed around by the Volskaya mech, even if he eventually got back to perfect condition after the fight

[dense nebula]

Where’s this attitude coming from?

[dense garnet]

Also their healing factors work differently from each other's

[past copper]

From someone who has seen how immortality is depicted and knows what it means

[dense garnet]

Wade's healing factor prevents his cancer cells from dying. Reaper's cells are dying and being replaced all the time. Theoretically, you can kill Reaper if there's nothing to replace, ala disintegration

[dense nebula]

Doesn’t give you an excuse to have an attitude

[dense garnet]

But yeah tbh we'll probably never get to see the full extent of Reaper's healing factor simply because this is a T-rated series and Reaper's not gonna go around losing and repairing lost limbs

[past copper]

Then stop saying nonsense about Reaper being immortal

If anyone is "immortal" it's the omnics here

[wooden drift]

It just reaper didn't fought against anything g that can really hurt him to death

[dense nebula]

He is immortal for the fact that his cells regenerate too fast to die from old age

[past copper]

That's not immortality

[dense garnet]

It's eternal life

[dense nebula]

That is literally a form immortality

[dense garnet]

Kinda in the same boat

There are many forms of immortality

Eternal life is one of them

[past copper]

That's like saying he doesn't need oxygen when under water

[dense nebula]

What??

[dense garnet]

People with eternal life can still die, but it's still considered a form of immortality to not be able to die from natural causes

[wooden drift]

When did we started questioning reaper's immortality..?

[dense garnet]

And yeah afaik Reaper can't die from aging

[past copper]

Good for him. But looks like anything else can harm and kill him. So age won't kill him, but literally 99% of everything else can

[wooden drift]

I think you can only defeat him, but not kill

[past copper]

Which just proves me more right in saying omnics are more immortal than Reaper. Because they don't suffer the same problems humans and animals do

[dense garnet]

Yeah, but you're construting immortality with not being able to ever die. People with forms of immortality can die, I know this as an avid powerscaler

[wise grotto]

Ok reaper isn’t just true immortality
He’s effectively immortal but it isn’t true immortality

It’s really not that complicated

[past copper]

Okay, we're not getting into that since power scalers have proven to be basis

[wise grotto]

Your just blowing the nitpickyness of the term immortality out of proportion

[brittle sky]

I can understand the desire to write in a vendetta like figure both to symbolically shake up the state of lore (which feel stagnant because it has been in the real world, even if in universe doom as been making moves that seem largely successful) and because of a need for talon to act in a way not in character with doom's mo. I also understand the timeline of introducing a character and having her overthrow a well established power house with little to no difficulty as a little straining to believe.

I also think that vendetta seems largely intended to come across as bold and competent, but there's a definite read that she's showing a lot of headstrong, isolating, and even self destructive moves. I hope those elements are intentional and addressed as time goes on, because yeah, if we're expected to read her as leading perfectly she's not super convincing in that regard given How much she's burning every bridge she can find, working purely transactionally under the assumption no one would ever move against her, and generally assuming her own invincibility despite having no true loyalists or allies among the named cast.

[dense garnet]

Yeah they're just nitpicking at this point. There's 9 types of immortalities recognized by the community. Reaper would fit under "immortality via regeneration"

[past copper]

Riiiight. Whatever floats your boat

[wise grotto]

True immortality is a term used for characters for a reason your literally just being as picky as you can with the definition for the sake of it

Mr immortal is literally said to have true immortality in his own universe because of how odd the definitions get

[past copper]

And you're throwing around immortality for anyone

[dense garnet]

We've only talked about Reaper this entire time

The Omnics are the closest thing to immortal via eternal life, and outside of the Omnics, Reaper is the closest to being effectively immortal via regeneration

[jade linden]

Sure but he trains and even upgraded his stuff to fit his fighting style

[past copper]

Exactly

[wooden drift]

You literally called omnics immortal out of nowhere

[wise grotto]

Omnics also wouldn’t count as true immortality

[dense garnet]

Omnics are definitely immortal since they can't die from old age, but yeah

[wise grotto]

Cause eventually if the entire world was destroyed they’d eventually die out fully

[past copper]

Ram has literally called omnics immortal compared to humanity

[wise grotto]

There’s layers to it and one of the basic requires tons to be any form of immortal is to not be killable via old age

[dense garnet]

There's no "true" immortality imo. There's many forms of immortality and there are also instances where characters have multiple immortalities

[jade linden]

He is also a master martial artist and knows many forms, making him superior over Vendetta

[wise grotto]

Compared to humans meaning they don’t age

[jade linden]

Vendetta only knows how to use a big sword

[wise grotto]

All they need is a power source

[past copper]

And you know what? He's right to say omnics are immortal. They don't age, they don't get diseases, they don't need food or sleep or anything humans need

[dense garnet]

10+ years of training, she'd definitely pick up some martial arts

[past copper]

That's immortality

[dense garnet]

Plus I wouldn't be surprised if Ven has engaged in actual deathmatches

[edgy tree]

Foolishly allowing Overwatch to unite? He doesn't want them dead in the first place

he ain't Vendetta

[hexed hemlock]

Guys think doomfist died at Petra

[past copper]

Hell. Now Ram is banking on humanity wiping itself out so that omnics can live peacefully forever

[wooden drift]

Ye, I think they should've actually at least shown more of that training tbh

[dense garnet]

If Ram is hiding away, he should stay away from my comp games

[edgy tree]

He also let her have her flashback and grab her weapon again so it really doesn't feel like he actually tried there

[wise grotto]

Actually rhe omnics are technically less immortal then reaper is

Mondatta was shot and died

Best you can do to reaper is incapacitate him

[edgy tree]

Bro should've made a backup smh 😑

[brittle sky]

And vendetta is so sure she'll crush ow, she's about to convince the ijc to change its mind and legitimize them

[edgy tree]

Especially with the fact she's also raiding Helix at the same time

[past copper]

That's the only thing that can kill omnics. Well, kill their souls. If it were just a robot, no brainer to fix it. But omnics? They're not just robots

[wise grotto]

Nothing in ow is truely immortal csuse we don’t have the scope of a world to have that
Nothing will survive the heat death of the universe itself so all forms of immortality in ow are either because of lack of aging via cybernetics
Via being a robot
Or via reaped constant death and life cycle of every cell in his body

[edgy tree]

They didn't specifically NEED Overwatch in the invasion.... they sure as hell need them now though

[past copper]

Not if they fail to protect people

Null Sector has won so far

[edgy tree]

They did rescue a lot of Omnics

[brittle sky]

Very courteous of perpetual crisis events to show up to justify ow's existence like that

[edgy tree]

remember that they had to get back together mid-invasion

[narrow reef]

Do you think my theory about Sigma being an undercover Mossad agent could be valid?

[past copper]

That immediately were tracked down and taken by Null Sector

[wooden drift]

He's too insane to be anybody's agent

[edgy tree]

actually those were already captured

[edgy meadow]

they pretty much show us in the trailer that vendetta doesnt even have to deal with overwatch since it would have been disbanded officially anyway, but she wanted to because of her ego/arrogance/as a 'power move'

[edgy tree]

They had the headgear which Torb tampered with

[brittle sky]

Why are you taking that bait

[wooden drift]

I dunno

[past copper]

Clearly, it's not just the helmets Null Sector is relying on. Not if they're taking them too

[edgy tree]

yeah she could've waited for the world to "de-fang them" like she said before

[narrow reef]

But he could be only acting, didn't you think about that? He was very smart before the accident and his discovery could be highly funded by Israeli investors

[edgy tree]

The helmets take their mind they take the body to put it back in later

Torb says there's NOTHING there after the helmet is put on

[wooden drift]

But is Israel canon in overwatch?

[narrow reef]

Why wouldn't it be?

[wooden drift]

Cuz no prove that it exists

[past copper]

Either way, Overwatch failed to protect the omnics. Even Vivan basically stated this in her interview with the press

[edgy tree]

Which makes sense since they had to uknow get back together during the invasion and had an insufficient amount of people to do what was needed

[brittle sky]

Max realizing he replaced one overbearing boss with another, extra overbearing boss in real time is pretty fun.

[past copper]

Which now leads to the UN deciding if Overwatch should be shut down again

[edgy tree]

that's because the invasion is over

[past copper]

Because Overwatch failed

[edgy tree]

no just because the Invasion is over

[edgy meadow]

if vendetta didnt attack they probably would have

[edgy tree]

Them grouping back together was not legal

the act was still in place during the recall

sure they did help but that doesn't change the fact Overwatch activity was a crime that's why the un was deciding on disbanding it again

[wise grotto]

Not everywhere had this issue
Sym protected an entire city solo

With the least casualties in the world at a whopping 0

[brittle sky]

I mean the UN secretary straight up called them to tell them how illegal they're being rn

[edgy tree]

Yeah in the Winston pve emails

[brittle sky]

And I need to find and listen to those because I'm half convinced I recognize the va

[wise grotto]

The world still remembers the problems ow had back then the un was very mad at what they did

[edgy tree]

And Winston disregarding orders definitly did not help them out in the slightest

[past copper]

Symmetra isn't apart of Overwatch tho. So her actions aren't on anyone's radar

[wise grotto]

No but she’s an example that would defend them not being needed

[past copper]

Overwatch is being scrutinized due to their illegal activity and failing to stop Null Sector from taking the omnics

[edgy tree]

They weren't asked to help the omnics

that's not a real point against them

like it's just their ILLEGAL activities

[past copper]

No. But the world views it as "if they failed to protect them, what good are they as a whole?"

You gotta understand, citizens are very critical

[spark mica]

And dont forget their suppliers

[edgy tree]

Do u have to be reminded it was a small group of people that could help at one location that slowly grew during the Invasion

there was no real way they could do that it's just the illegal activities

[past copper]

Tell that to citizens being invaded by armies of killbots. Not me

[edgy tree]

is this even a real point?

[spark mica]

Yes

[edgy tree]

I don't remember their "failure" being mentioned

[past copper]

The point is, people are quick to turn against their heroes for whatever reason

[jade linden]

Yeah, 30+ years of training and fought 3 ow agents and almost won

Blud also defeated 15 of those OR-15 bots

[past copper]

They immediately turned on Overwatch after Blackwatch was exposed after all

[spark mica]

And honestly the reason why we got a No.2 of this franchise is because of the citizens

They terrorized Omnics, which Ram had seen first hand

[edgy tree]

Because they just assasinated someone?!?

[spark mica]

Honestly most of the bad things that happened in that universe were because of the general public

with some exceptions here or there

[past copper]

It was more over the fact Overwatch were keeping Blackwatch a secret and people believed they were abusing their power as a whole

[wooden drift]

Power scaling doesn't make sense in any media, man. Vendetta just bodied doomfist. It happens

[edgy tree]

and only lost to one specifically designed against him

[edgy tree]

The assasination did fuel the fire though

it was the first thing mentioned in the news

[past copper]

Yes. Along with media propaganda if we're bring honest

[edgy tree]

I'm preety sure Antonio was also a major figure that wasn't known as evil

so to the publics eyes they just killed some random good person for their own goals

[past copper]

What didn't help is that Blackwatch was going on unsanctioned missions that could be deemed as illegal and abuse of power

Missions that Jack either did or did not know about. Which would not sit well with the public regardless

[jade linden]

Exactly, cause Orisa was buffed to have fortify and spear 😭

[edgy tree]

She also single handely stopped a null sector invasion in numbani

that gal op