lore-discussion

[shrewd pivot]

Unfortunately I think the "shallow involking of Roman imagery" is just bad writing (breads and circus gladiator fights), not intentional coding. They don't take into account her Italian culture / Italian accent well when writing for her, as the recent text stories indicated.

Irl mafia threatened the godfather film maker bc some events were "too realistic" iirc. Like, afraid that there was a mole.

Sopranos too iirc

[brittle sky]

One of the recurrent points of the sopranos is that mobsters also were constantly imitating the godfather because they think it makes them look cool.

[wise grotto]

Yea no the mafia was a bunch of backstabbing superiority complex t people at a certain point

Which damn vendetta fits into that

[shrewd pivot]

🥀 idk. Italian=mafia is such an overdone trope. I would have loved an Italian opera singer or Italian puppet threatre or Pinocchio story inspired omnic. Puss in Boots even.... (jet pack caaat)

For context, Pinocchio and Puss in Boots are Italian fairy tales

But, I AM hype for lore tomorrow (maybe another lore video drop) and on the 4th for spotlight.

[brittle sky]

I mean we were setting up for a haunted ghost story deal with the malevento lore way back int he day.

[shrewd pivot]

For a roster hero, I mean haha

[brittle sky]

And again, overwatch often grabs for shallow tropes as its baseline. The japanese character are all related to a ninja-yakuza clan. Australia's doing a mad max. Its french character is a femme fatale ex ballet dancer, its big faction in mexico is super into dia de los muertos. In its twin tasks of finding striking, immediately intriguing imagery and trying to globe trot for its inspirations, it falls back on tropes that are often clunky.

[shrewd pivot]

Also I can't link it, but a friend said some overwatch writers were getting into fallout writing? Fallout has some interesting inspo for overwatch if so, like Maximilien's info chip... if its not just a coincidence of "poker chip" and microchip lol

[brittle sky]

getting into which fallout writing, and how?

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, usually it's baseline "camp" or "pulp fiction" and then gets fleshed out if we are lucky lol

[shrewd pivot]

The fallout game series, I don't think the overwatch writer indicated which fallout game.

Fallout portrays various philosophy factions and critiques each one, it's themes are anti war. "War, War never changes,"

"War never changes, men must change"

Etc

[brittle sky]

I just hope if they ever get around to a hashimoto character they use the more insurgent gang status to be less anachronistic than the rest of the cast.

[brittle sky]

I mean that's wildly different writing every game

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah which has me a bit iffy. Like, Breaking Bad influenced Maximilien (overwatch writer confirmed Maximilien was inspired in part by Gus), and Reggie and Claire are just Saul and Kim as omnics lol. I hope whatever influences from fallout onto overwatch aren't mid

[brittle sky]

and most of them don't really have meaningful insight into war, besides its baseline folly of being a war-driven post-apocalypse

[wise grotto]

I mean
Max is super rich moneybags robot
That could just be super simple symbolism

[shrewd pivot]

Fallout series as a whole is pretty anti-war as it shows the horrors of war, the factions represent philosophies that come from wartime (the game critiques all philosophies to make the player sit and think about what actually IS right and wrong). Fallout New Vegas had some compelling stories from the bits I saw.

Idk too much fallout lore tho, but I do know there's a good bit of overlap in topics between Overwatch and Fallout.

[wise grotto]

Fallout lore is very anti war generally csuse its world only exists because war kept going and going until it was easy to push countries into the extreme options

Which happened to be “fuck it”

But fallout also actively is definitely anti capitalism very directly

[shrewd pivot]

Oh for sure! It's that his writer had made comments about wanting to write a whole season for Maximilien, that Maximilien was inspired by Gus from breaking bad, etc. Maximilien is easily a blink and you miss it sleazy broker, but his lore actually explores interesting facets of omnic lore and worldbuilding.

[wise grotto]

With the sheer amount of uber corrupt companies

[wise grotto]

Mhm
I still want him in game

I wanna play as sleezy mcmoneybags

[shrewd pivot]

Lol same, maybe if Maximilien ever feels forced to flee Talon we could get the arc that could make Mr."pacifist" playable as a hero.

[wise grotto]

I wouldn’t call him a pacifist

[shrewd pivot]

Also VERY poignant that Zenyatta(narrative good guy) is a traveling (ex)monk guru and NOT a pacifist, while Maximilien(narrative bad guy) is a "pacifist" and is sleazymcmoneybags.

Overwatch asserts 'pacifism' both in Maximilien's case and Mondatta's case, is not effective. Zenyatta and Ramattra do not agree with Mondatta. Ramattra for sure does not agree with Maximilien either.

I use air quotes because Maximilien calls himself a pacifist in his story, lmao

He may not ever pick up a gun himself, but Maximilien is absolutely not an actual pacifist. But he describes himself as a pacifist.

[wise grotto]

He’s as much of a pacifist as the head of vishkar would be

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah

[brittle sky]

fallout (at its best) critiques power, and the concerns that plague it leads to cycles of conflict. While the folly of lore is a foundational notion, I'm not sure I'd say it portrays the horrors of war beyond the basic nuclear apocalypse all that much.

and will maintain that max's head minion would be more intresting than max as a playable

[peak escarp]

isn't "war never changes" a quote from a movie? I feel like I've heard it somewhere else

[wise grotto]

In the games itself I’m pretty sure

[azure flint]

fallout 4

original quote

[wise grotto]

And I mean the games occasionally tell you about the wars all the time including like an actual video of two soldiers executing a random civilian and laughing about it

[azure flint]

but pretty generic quote so

i wish blizzard gave us more serious looks into what the omnic crisis was actually like

[shrewd pivot]

I saw Craig Boone's story from fallout New vegas in a video, it was rather nuanced and explored the horrors soldiers create and then live with, the horrors caused in war. Huge trigger warning for the warcrimes described, if you look into his story, but. Yeah. His story makes you think about the harm war creates, the broken people it leaves behind, and the ethical questions of taking life.

[shrewd pivot]

The Genesis shorts gave a very visceral look even with the... limited 2d animation. The scene of Bastion units storming a beach and firing on human beach goers (iirc all ages?) really cemented the omnic crisis as extremely dark times for humanity.

[azure flint]

like that scene from the last bastion

[wise grotto]

There’s also the mill sector witb soj walking past piles of body’s after what happened in Toronto

[azure flint]

need more of that

[wise grotto]

Null sector not mill

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, it was bleak.

I think something like around 13% of humanity was wiped out by the omnic crisis? And overwatch is set in the future, like 2070+ probably so the global population would be much larger than it is today, so easily 1 billion casualties.

Imagine 1 in 10 people, gone. Globally. After only two years.

And certain countries were hit harder than others so a 1 in 10 isn't all that accurate, some places like the Phillipines were hit very hard while places like Portugal had defenses. Entire nations had to rebuild.

[wise grotto]

Yea
The bull sector people were more prepared but it was still horrible

Everything from mass causalities to (Dubai?) the city sym protected facing none csuse she was just that good

[brittle sky]

null crisis was also not intended as primarily wiping people out. It seemed willing to cause destruction to further its access to omnic populations, but it was not intended to be extermination in the way the omnic crisis seems to be.

[keen summit]

Idk if domina will be a hero yet tho

[fierce moon]

she'll be revealed at spotlight

[keen summit]

Ehhh

I honestly hope they dont release her yet

I love vishkar but it'd be cooler if we get some hype for her first

[azure flint]

3rd hero for this year

trust

what are ppl saying is gonna be emres role? dps or support?

[keen summit]

Tank

Look at him

If domina is this year shes probs supp

Cuz emre cant be support basically cuz hes way taller than freja, has tons of armor, a big arm cannon and a pistol too

Hes shown no supportive capabilities in his new form

So tank is most likely

If anything though even if they now do reveal all heroes for next year atleast we got introduced first this time

But i didnt notice the big armor she has for domina

And 4 arms?

Cuz she had a normal roght arm earlier

[azure flint]

doc ock in ow

[pale valve]

If doomfist can use a whole doom gauntlet without losing his real arm Vishkar gotta be trolling their employees

And before yall say "that's not his real arm it's a prosthetic" there were 2 doomfists before him

And a normal KID used it on Widowmaker lmao

[keen summit]

???

What are you yapping about qith vishkar

[brittle sky]

what are you talking about? He looks... maybe a quarter head taller in the one time we get them standing on an equal level, his actual silhouette is sleak other than one shoulder pad (look at his narrowness in the big going dark mode panel compared to even narrow tanks like jq or zarya), and the bulky arm cannon manifests in and out. Easily in the realm of a squishy's hitbox.

Honestly, I could see the argument for dps (given how obviously aggro he is) or support (he's a combat medic by training, and the aggro could manifest as an aggro mode or tempo you work around and heal between), and while tank is technically possible (and we're due), he doesn't demonstrate any real tanky abilities.

[keen summit]

Getting shot at alot and being in an explosion isnt tanky?

[gloomy rose]

whyyyy are maugas guns stolen from overwatch??? he’s a fucking heavy from talon, who already have double chainguns??? does the OW team know their own lore??????

[keen summit]

Not to mention that freja is always hunched over while we see Emre only standing up in the comoc

[azure flint]

freja has scoliosis

[brittle sky]

Comparing them talking when he goes to leave, the difference isn't big.

[keen summit]

Doesn't matter for model though, lw model was taller than jqs for example

Cuz shes hunched over

If he stands straight

[brittle sky]

could be a bunch of ways it's off model. But if we're going by the visuals of the comic, I'm not convinced it's got the bulk to warrant a tank.

[pale valve]

Vishkar forces their employees to remove one of their arms to get a robotic one

No way that's actually necessary

[keen summit]

Was it ever stated to be forced?

Hell it seems lw has a gauntlet

Its called a gauntlet too

[keen summit]

Honestly i frankly disagree, his arm cannon, armor and pretty big frame especially if he'd be standing upright

[bitter scroll]

Discusionnnnnnnn

[wise grotto]

He literally ripped them off of something and repurposed them for himself the mini guns the heavy’s from ow hsve are built for a real person to hold
The ones Mauga has and wanted are built to be mounted and fired

This is pretty self explanatory honestly
Mauga wanted bigger more chaotic and powerful guns
Mounted ones thag can light someone on fire fits that bill better then standard issued ones for heavier soldiers

[wise grotto]

Only there engineers because the arms are all essentially literally how vishkars engineers get to do most of anything the technology is built to be apart of the person itself

[wise grotto]

They are arms but it’s a thing you have to willingly go through to become an engineer of vishkar

[grand wedge]

But Vaira didn't. She has a full set of two mechanical arms on top of her two flesh ones.

[wise grotto]

Viara might not be an engineer or architect since she might just be an executive member

[wise grotto]

That is not flesh

That is 1000% a mechanical hand

[steep hollow]

if i had a nickel for everytime an OW tank ripped a weapon off of somethign and repurposed it as their primary weapon in gameplay i'd have two nickels. weird how that's happened twice

[merry mason]

Reread that

[wise grotto]

I ontop of her two flesh ones

One of those is clearly one of the architect hands visibly
So unless they are gauntlets and some architects just remove there arms for no reason at all
Or the artist actively wasn’t told about her arms

[wise grotto]

Who’s the other one

[steep hollow]

Zarya! Her plasma canon is ripped from one of the Volskya Industry robots, iirc

[wise grotto]

Oooooh
Honestly makes sense for Zarya

[steep hollow]

Funny it's her too, since her and Mauga exchange dialogue about being weightlifters, etc.

For being on opposing sides, you'd think they'd hate each other more. Seems like a one-sided respect thing from Mauga

[merry mason]

I think it’s totally likely that it’s an oversight but

1. We see her right hand is flesh in the first illustration.
2. In the second illustration her right hand is prosthetic and her left is organic
3. The text clearly says she has two robotic arms.

So either:
The artist forgot twice in a row that both arms are robotic, or
She has four arms.

While it’s possible it’s an oversight I doubt it since she’s 90% likely to be a new hero so they would already have tons of concept art for the artist to reference plus the managers would probably be very anal about getting their soon to be iconic character right.

[grand wedge]

yes it is her mechanical arm

she has two normal arms, two mechanical

she builds light with the mechanical one

she didn't have her flesh ones replace by a mechanical one like Symm did

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HALyuEYX0AE3HH3?format=png&name=medium

oh i can't post pictures anymore

[peak escarp]

I got you

[grand wedge]

thanks!

[peak escarp]

yeah, Vaira has 4 arms

[grand wedge]

also, it is said that "One of her robotic arms at her back reached forward with precision" - that's all we have about her tech/arms

[merry mason]

Yeah also note that they “frame her silhouette” which would be weird word choice if they were just a normal amount of arms in their normal place giving her a normal silhouette

[wise grotto]

Yea she has two giant mechanical ones you can see the things both floating behind her somewhat out of view

They most likely remain floating there at all times

Otherwise there’s just@two floating useless items and they’re refusing to show us her actual second set of arms

Saying she has two robotic arms would be weird to point out a member of vishkar having any unless they stood out massively and two floating srms behind the lady who already floats would be much more notable to look at

Would it also not be cool and badass as shit to give the new two giant floating arms posed up behind her to reallt drive home she’s supposed to be a much more intimidating and imposing member of vishkar then Sanjay was

The way it lights up the circular part makes them look like giant shoulder guards on something floating behind her

[merry mason]

But that also got me thinking, how does she fit into doors?

[wise grotto]

I mean they float so probably fairly easily since they can move around freely around her

The better wuestion is how does most of the tank cast fit indoors

Maugas massive

Does he just break through the wall every time

[merry mason]

probably

[wise grotto]

actually Mauga would definitely do that

That is painfully in character now that oce said it

In her case they probably float or can be fully deconstructed at will and she just has them on as often as she can

Vishkar is t exactly alien to that it’s like Syms entire thing is how effective she is at using the arm to create things

[grand wedge]

it feels like her arms/wing would be a bit like Echo's : not connected with a joint, just...hovering or something?

she may have something attached to her spine tho

can't wait to see her whole model

[brittle sky]

Has there been a character with a non-contiguous model like that before?

[grand wedge]

Echo, Lifeweaver flower on his back?

Wait, actually, it could be like Lifeweaver tech on his back

except the petal flowers are those big wings thingy, and her arms

[wise grotto]

I mean that would still fall easily under the gimmick or the vishkar being able to create things and also dismantle them

For ingame models that change we have ramm echo mercy bastion and technically winston

[brittle sky]

Either of those non contiguous on the actual hurt box?

[wise grotto]

Echos hitbox copy’s another hero

Ramms hitbox changes constantly
Mercy’s changes when ulting

Bastion has 3 fully different hitbox@including one of only 2 moving head hitboxes

Balls head and arm/leg hotboxes disapear as well

So it wouldn’t be unreasonable to have a hero who’s hitbox changes however in actual gameplay if she’s a tank I’d imagine her arms would stay out at all times

It would give her a VERY interesting hitbox with how much I’d imagine those arms would move

[brittle sky]

I was more asking if anyone has hitbox with gaps. Purely in terms of how floating they might be

[wise grotto]

I’m assuming they’ll be directly behind her so if echos don’t have a gap hers probably won’t either

[fossil wren]

Spotlight tomorrow

[merry mason]

don't wanna be a doomer but if she has four arms there's a non zero chance they were counting her as the oddball in that one interview.

[wise grotto]

Honestly if they do count her
I’d say having a lady with two giant floating arms following her around is pretty odd

[brittle sky]

Okay but in the context of when the oddball statement was made it'd be wildly off base

[wise grotto]

True
Honestly they call a lot of stuff oddballs

I can’t remember but I think it goes everywhere from Hammond to venture or Mauga as “oddballs”

[brittle sky]

The assurances came when fans interpreted an interview line as confirmation they were only making pretty, marketable characters with none of the wild swings of Hammond. An elegant gorgeous CEO who has a vehicle or conveyance of cybernetics isn't a break from that anymore than dva isn't a break from that just because she drives a mech.

[shrewd pivot]

It's so grover if so. Multiple mech arms in the context of Hindu Indian characters, is no different than mech angel wings on Valkerie/Christian angel Mercy. It's a campy religious motif, and don't get me wrong a setup like Wraith from deadlock would be sick!

But overwatch's oddballs are characters with unconventional body types and unconventional designs and unconventional lore that expands worldbuilding possibilities. Like Winston with the Lunar Colony, or Orisa with Numbani, or Torbjörn with the Ironclad + Bastion inventions.

Vaira would be a return to the fun creative overwatch designs people know and love (Genji, Ana, Reinhardt, etc) but not an "oddball" by overwatch standards since our most basic og is Soldier76 who is a balding genetically modified super soldier who was chasing the ghosts of glory days as a vigilante.

[wise grotto]

I honestly kinda hope she’s like this cause it is fun and creative
It reminds me of Amara from borderlands 3

[shrewd pivot]

Also I was looking into things, and Gabriel Reyes IS canonically Mexican, correct? (Mexican-American by the cookbook lore)

Someone had said writers confirmed Reyes was Afro-Latino but I am unsure of that.

Also, Danza de los Diablos(Dance of the devils)/Danza de los Diablitos(Dance of the little devils) is from indigenous Boruca culture in Costa Rica, it holds historical significance (dancing in masks to scare away colonizers), so I must assume overwatch was implying Reaper is Boruca heritage? It would be a little odd for him to dance such a culturally significant dance if he wasn't connected to the area/culture in some way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danza_de_los_Diablitos

[wise grotto]

Who mind you is a fairly shallow idea

[brittle sky]

Canonically Angeleno and Chicano, yesh. Lucio is confirmed afro-latino, dunno about Reyes.

I'm gonna take a stab and say the danza de lose diablos was likely not intended as a purposeful reference.

[wise grotto]

Reyes has been part Mexican like the whole time he’s just also American

[brittle sky]

Okay, point of order - he's not 'part' mexican, in that we have no evidence he has heritage other than chicano/latino/hispanic. If he turns out to be mixed heritage that's different, but he's just an american of mexican descent as far as we can tell. That is incredibly common in his native LA. Just like venture isn't part mexican or half mexican, they are of mexican heritage, even as their nationality is canadian.

just like soldier isn't half irish, or baptiste isn't half african, or tracer isn't half saxon. heritage is not the same thing, nor incompatible, with nationality or cultural origin.

[azure flint]

why does the blog say "the part you play in the next big story"

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-ishowspeed-yeah-right-ishowspeed-yeah-ishowspeed-right-ishowspeed-stream-gif-2870397197282141259

we voting if vendetta kills doom or nah

[brittle sky]

I mean, winning tokens through play to vote on the outcome of story events would be hilarious.

[shrewd pivot]

It's a dance where people dance in masks to scare off attackers, it's very pertinent to Reaper's design.

They did research into Roadhog's cultural skins to depict it more accurately. Pharah is... a bit messy in rep. Mauga had cultural research for his marking designs. Illari seems to have had cultural research done into her presentation.

Symmetra's Kali skin was actually rejected by Hindu temples, it's not an appropriate skin to have if Symmetra is meant to be respectful rep.

I really hope Reaper's dance is not them being ignorant, because having Reaper dance a spiritually significant dance of indigenous people in Costa Rica resisting colonization, as a Mexican cop character turned lethal force grim reaper. Uh... that's a "it's Latino, same thing right?" Bs + a dirty cop archetype dancing a spiritually important tradition he has no relationship with is... bad.

[brittle sky]

By all evidence reaper has been referred to as mexican, which is not costa rican. Not broadly latino, mexican. And there's a chance they designed reaper before they pinned down who was even behind the mask - the earliest biographic material was sans any mention of reyes.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah the cookbook seems to make that distinction! Sombra is Mexican culturally for sure, while Reyes is American with Mexican heritage influencing some "Americanized" versions of Mexican food.

[brittle sky]

I think declassified specifically said his family has been in LA for generations after coming from Mexico.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, it seems like Gabe's human design was a later addition considering Reaper's skin is pale in all reaper iterations.

[shrewd pivot]

I'd believe that! It probably did.

Hmmm

Ig then Reaper's dance might simply be this, which has Afro-Latino ancestry implications

https://travelnoire.com/mexico-la-danza-de-los-diabos

[wise grotto]

I’m glad Syms skin was bad rep I thought it was just me thinking it was mid as hell design wise and uninspiring

Like “why’s the cultural skin so ass on you in particular”

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it was very culturally insensitive

[wise grotto]

I still can’t tell if I hate the dragon ones more for sym but that’s different

[shrewd pivot]

I'm just wondering about Reyes dance bc either he's Afro-Latino from Mexico (but no confirmation on him being Afro-Latino), or he is Boruca-Mexican(Fits Latino heritage confirmed)? Or the devs are extremely ignorant and made something worse that the Symmetra Kali skin by making a Mexican dirty cop character dance a spiritual anti-colonizer dance from a culture he has no relationship too. lol.

[wise grotto]

I think the sym kali skin would still be worse there

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah optics wise, Symettra skin is certainly worse.

Context wise, Reaper dance would be utterly disrespectful.

[wise grotto]

Yea
I find Moira depressing for the Irish part
I want a real Irish hero

Not someone who occasionally speaks the language but otherwise is as non Irish as possible

Like
The Scottish In me is happy as hell

The Irish In me is glaring still

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah that's fair.

Moira representing a banshee/malicious fae is an interesting villainess though I must admit. And I would much rather her be the eugenics evil scientist with "unnatural fae" vibes than if she was a different heritage with particular history.

I like that Moira can touch such dark topics in a future scifi, without it being a direct mythos-ifying of irl historical criminals.

But I def get wanting other aspects of Irish culture being explored in overwatch.

[brittle sky]

I mean she's actually someone that defies a lot of easier stereotypes or archetypes while, as ultra said, hitting some queen maev vibes.

[shrewd pivot]

I think the problem lies with the fact the roster will be limited, so not every area gets the Doomfist (villain) + Orisa (hero) treatment to make it feel like worldbuilding, rather than a one sided villain (Widowmaker) or one sided hero (Tracer) outlook.

But yeah, I totally get wanting better Irish rep. At the same time, I wouldn't not want Moira to be on the roster, she adds so much to the lore and visual design potential on the roster.

[wise grotto]

True but
I think Irish and Scottish culture very much craves the “WHOOOOO STEREOTYPE” so that might just be me

[wise grotto]

Oh no I love Moira
I just find her a weak Irish rep specifically

Otherwise she’s incredible lore wise

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, she's a polyglot scientist working around the globe, very much raised in but not steeped in Irish culture for rep.

[brittle sky]

I also note that the notion of moira being a eugenicist is... A little weak? Like she deals in genes, that's the main model of her experimental. But she's using it as a playground of super powers and alterations towards a goal of scientific advancement, and I don't think she has expressed any interest in like, making the ubermensch. Compare that to Victoria naughton, the person behind the super soldier program, who is characterized as regretting that there's no evidence survivors of the program passed along their advanced capabilities to offspring.

You can still say tying unethical genetic research, a practice which inherently invokes eugenics in popular consciousness even if not explicitly eugenical in its goals, to a person from a country that suffered direct under colonial rule using scientific racism and it's malthusian antecedents is a bit gauche, but I mean, do you guys not want Genevieve O'Reilly hamming it up?

[wise grotto]

She wants to push human evolution to the absolute furthest it could go and gave herself a time limit by using herself as a testing ground as well

She doesn’t wanna make a new race she wants to be able to manually evolve people

Reaper widow and herself are 3 prime examples

[shrewd pivot]

It's not obvious at first glance, but Moira is doing genetics research by torturing animals (deemed as villainous, notably the irish hare is the national animal and Moira experiments on rabbits) and human subjects(sigma) and she is so extremely confident she even experimented herself (her decaying arm). She is a "ends justify the means" evil genetics scientist trying to cure diseases sure, but torturing people unethically to do so. She follows anyone who gives her funding, be it Doomfist or Oasis. No ethics + genetics research = eugenics.

Overwatch is a scifi future, and animal testing is highly ineffective irl for most human disease information. Using human subjects or human lab grown organs (easy to do in a scifi future) would be a more accurate choice if Moira wanted to get reliable results. She believes humans should be genetically modified to "improve" humans, as her technology grants not just healthcare but super powers in some way.

[grim knoll]

overwatch should ask the comm what they want in the lore

[median orchid]

The new drops that are coming out along the spotlight list a new Zarya skin called "New Era".

I looked into it and the skin is clearly Overwatch organization themed featuring the blue color scheme and the Overwatch logo. could this be or mean something?

Like new Zarya lower of her fully joining the Overwatch organization?

[shrewd pivot]

Oh I just saw that skin, it's a bit uggo lol. But yeah probably indicates an overwatch regrouping to fight the Talon threat i assume?

[median orchid]

Yeah gotta be something

[brittle sky]

Sure, but that doesn't speak to the specific motives and perspectives that drive eugenicism, in the way we get very overtly with naughton.

[peak escarp]

what is Boruca-Mexican?

as far as I'm aware, Reyes is Mexican-American, born in LA

he doesn't look afro-latino to me (compare him to Lucio, who is Afro-brazilian)

[wise grotto]

So they fucked up the art then?
Cause it shows her hand afyer mechanic but doesn’t show here another Arm and the only things we see is the giant things floating behind her

[shrewd pivot]

Boruca is the name of the indigenous group in Costa Rica that created the Danza de los diablitos/Danza de los diablos.

The Boruca people's tradition went on to inspire the Afro-Latino Danza de los diablos tradition in Mexico.

Reapers dance emote is Danza de los diablos, it's a spiritual dance where masked local people dance to scare off attacking colonizers.
So either Reaper's family line is Afro-Latino heritage from Mexico, Boruca + Mexican heritage from Mexico, or the writers messed up and gave a Mexican dirty cop character a culturally/spiritually significant dance he has no connection to, and shouldn't really be performing.

[shrewd pivot]

She might have a set up like Wraith from deadlock. Full human body, with two mech arms connected at the shoulder.

Not much different than Ramattra's nemesis form set up.

[wise grotto]

True but I feel like they’ll mainly go for the huge floating arms to make her not just rammattra but human

Unless this art isn’t accurate with her

[shrewd pivot]

TBF she is covered in shadow, so it's hard to say for certain.

[brittle sky]

Those big corners behind her make me think there will be a larger apparatus and distinguished from nemesis form by being either a conveyance while she sits or a floating thing, rather than an exoskeleton like nemesis

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it's very possible! She probably has floating arms. But even if its floating, it's a giant pair of arms, and I can't post images of Wraith, so I used the best text comparison I could think of atm, Nemesis Ramattra.

[wise grotto]

She also does float we know thag for a fact

So she might have an apparatus that she floats on for sure it just feels like it would make se de

[hard reef]

they better not kill off doom

[shrewd pivot]

Ngl if its just floating tech that makes Domina even less of an oddball imo?

bc her human body (which will be a main hero design focus) is just a normal human, not oddball. So not even a design that is oddball like DVA showcasing the mech a ton.

And it was established Vishkar architects have one prosthetic arm to control hardlight. So if Domina shows us that you can keep your human body and use floating tech, then either that's a new tech invention, or all Vishkar architects are forced to cut off thier arms and replace them with prosthesis for no reason.

[shrewd pivot]

They won't imo, Doomfist isn't actually going to be killed, just defeated.

[brittle sky]

The 'cut off an arm' is speculation off the fact sym's is prosthetic

[shrewd pivot]

Lifeweaver's is too, no?

Even if non canon skins remove his prosthetic arm, or comics forget it add it(or maybe do not detail it enough to show it's a prosthetic arm with a human looking design), his hand has holes and joints in it that CAN'T be armor over flesh, it's a prosthetic arm like how Symmetra has. Lifeweaver is shown in his origin short working for Vishkar having that prosthetic arm.

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/xDqnAR

You can see that his finger joints cannot be a human hand underneath, and the center of his hand has a hole in it too deep to be organic.

[wise grotto]

Only early architects don’t csuse they essentially haven’t earned it (like Syms early ones)

[shrewd pivot]

https://blz-contentstack-images.akamaized.net/v3/assets/blt2477dcaf4ebd440c/blt1304d88705fbf47a/64236a72bad30b6ff457346c/lifeweaver-01.jpg

The Vishkar architects all have one prosthetic arm as well.

If they actually retcon vishkar architects as simply wearing armor and not prosthetic arms, that would be a terrible move imo. Symettra is physically disabled rep with a prosthetic arm, and so is Lifeweaver.

[grand wedge]

Symettra is autistic rep

and you've got mitliple disabled heroes, like

[shrewd pivot]

Symmetra is autistic rep AND missing limb prosthesis user rep.

[grand wedge]

Junkrat, Genji, Sojourn, Hazard

[wise grotto]

If they retconned it now it would make the architects significantly less interesting

[grand wedge]

I don't think it is mantatory for Vishkar employees to swap a limb to work for them?

[shrewd pivot]

Exactly

[wise grotto]

Soj is a bad example nothing about her at all isn’t cubernwtic

[wise grotto]

To be an architect yes
They’re the higher ranking most important people in the company

[grand wedge]

sorry : auto-immune disease rep then

[grand wedge]

where is it written?

[wise grotto]

Well we’ve seen people who’ve been forced to work for vishkar not have them like Lúcio

[grand wedge]

Lucio didn't work for Vishkar

his father did

and not an architecht

[wise grotto]

The architects are stated specifically to be the ones who have the arms

Which sym has a lore skin showing this off

Before she became an official architect

And we see it’s just a glove

[grand wedge]

and LW was a student, not and architect

doubt they cut off arms of their students?

[wise grotto]

He was a student him having access to make such a vastly powerful thing like hardlight was done after that period
He was a student the same time sym was

[grand wedge]

so, this is your supposition based on visuals

it is not explecitly said anywhere

it's okay to speculate and such, but don't state this as facts then

as we can see : there is tech that can give you extra arms without having to swap up limbs to have the tech. Symmetra did, Domina didn't.

[wise grotto]

Check the wiki

[grand wedge]

wiki is FAN MADE

[wise grotto]

The wiki for it has an image with a bunch of unnamed architects in the background from official art

[grand wedge]

and some people just put their headcanon in there interpreting things

hence : where is the source that said : "they required their architects to give up an arm to have a prosthesis."

[wise grotto]

Fuckin ask what kinda thing I’m telling you to check before you just immediately put it down and maybe wait

You can see ALL of the ones in the background have an arm that’s very much similar to the same including lw himself

So we’re gonna assume they just only grabbed a large amount of people who had a prosthetic on the same side as Lw just to make the photo look cooler

[shrewd pivot]

Junkrat had prosthesis out of necessity after blowing things up(good visual story telling, nice to have, but not inherently positive prosthesis user portrayal), Genji was used as a weapon and struggled with self image (his prosthesis is not a positive thing), Sojourn is really nice rep imo bc you don't often see dark skin prosthesis rep (stuck without updated prosthesis tho, bc robocop refs, and her novel had bad writing imo bc it used ableism(anti-cyborg, aka anti prosthesis user) as an allegory for racism), and Hazard's design was sanitized to have less unconventional prosthesis use and removed his wheelchair silhouette (unlike Zenyatta who is wheelchair cosplay friendly by design)

Symmetra excels at her craft and elegantly represents prosthesis use without it being something inherently negative like with Genji or something to "hide" like with Cassidy's cloak covering his robot arm. Symmetra was taken advantage of if she was forced to have a prosthetic arm, but regardless Symmetra is positive prosthesis user rep because of how her prosthesis is shown directly in her kathak dance motions that have a focus on hand gestures. Her prosthesis use should remain canon.

[wise grotto]

It’s (especially directly stated for lw) what allows them to control hard light (or hard life) in the first place as effectively as they do

The issue with the lady is angles show her hands different and either they
Drew the wrong hand as the prosthetic
Or forgot to draw the robot hand in the shots angled from behind but not from infront

But THOSE SYMBOLS are seen above a vishkar archived arm consistently

[grand wedge]

Genji litteraly couldn't walk after his fight with Hanzo, hence why he agreed to have this body? So he could walk again...

[wise grotto]

He was also given the body to be used as a weapon
Which is what they just said

[grand wedge]

ok

i'll leave you to it then

[wise grotto]

But like
If the prosthetic isn’t required this@image especially would be weird as hell

Cause like “ok so you just decided to amputate 11 people for fun”

Identical prosthetics I. ONLY the architects of the group

[grand wedge]

They didn't amputate a child

come on

gauntlet are things that exists

[wise grotto]

But are not capable of as much as@the arms are hence why sym only had it before she became one of the higher ranked architects

which is very clearly shown through skins

And is why lw designed his arm the way it is for better control over his specific way to use hardlight

[shrewd pivot]

He got upgrades with weaponry to join Blackwatch to take down the Shinada clan. His robotic body caused him great distress, and he only found peace after working with Zenyatta. He was built for war by adding the prosthesis, his prosthesis isn't just robot legs to walk. Blackwatch genji had one human arm. Overwatch Genji has two prosthetic arms.

[wise grotto]

Also Sanjay having them as well although his is also a custom made one specifically much like most seem to be

[shrewd pivot]

Vishkar literally blew up a building to sabotage a competitor, Symmetra's comic. It wounded innocents. Vishkar does not care about amputation of kids, they actively used hardlight sonic weapons again Lucio’s community (sonic weapons can deafen people) and Vishkar is stated to be happy to profit off of wartorn areas if they get to look like the "good guys" helping rebuild.

[wise grotto]

Vishkar has done multiple bad things they’re a company thag cares more about profit and reputation above ALL else

[shrewd pivot]

Yep

[wise grotto]

They have the money usually to keep things under wraps which is why vendetta knowing it all and having her power pretty much makes them willing to work with her without much fuss

[grand wedge]

I am telling you that you are speculating on a picture. Yes, Vishkar could totally do something that drastic, but no, it hasn't been stated anywhere in the lore resources that we have access to that it is mandatory for all architect to replace an arm for a prothesis. That's all.
Have nice speculation

[shrewd pivot]

It's not speculation, it's inference...

Not explicitly stated, but highly implied. Because Lifeweaver's prosthetic arm is litterally impossible to wear over an organic hand because the finger joints leave no room for human fingers. Symmetra canonically has a prosthetic arm.

Vishkar architects are portrayed with prosthetic arms.

[wise grotto]

So why talk about lore if you only ever wanna care about the solid stuff objectively stated
Most lore in most forms of@media implies there meanings and things because just outright telling people usually isn’t received well
Ever actually
If we’ve NEVER seen an architect without one except for exactly one specific drawing done and only at one angle csuse Domina has it at the other angle

[grand wedge]

he has both hands in the Together comic tho...

[wise grotto]

None of the people who have the arm could be wearing it as covers over there arms csuse of the joint parts

[shrewd pivot]

The comic lacks detail (for all we know it's a prosthetic hand that immitates the look of an organic one), and unfortunately it's not uncommon for mistakes because the recent Moira comic portrayal forgot to draw Moira with her mutated arm. Moira canonically has a mutated arm, and Lifeweaver canonically has a prosthetic arm.

[wise grotto]

The sprays that lack stuff have also@lacked Moira’s things
And the other parts of lw that are clearly modified including the mods on his feet

Like he’s got mods on his legs that disapear in some art

[grand wedge]

this comic is highly detailed tho...

[wise grotto]

It’s just inconsistencies and mistakes in art

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I hate when they just. Ignore the prosthesis in skins. Unless it's a past lore like Cassidy in the past having both human arms, I don't like them removing prosthesis in skins.

[wise grotto]

Not even just skins sprays will ignore key details occasionally as well

He has a spray that literally only has the head attachments

[shrewd pivot]

Not detailed enough to show texture, there are fake hands that look real but are prosthesis. Again, Moira was drawn without her mutated arm when she talks to Freja. That doesn't mean Moira's arm is suddenly cured and not mutated anymore canonically. It's a mistake.

[wise grotto]

Sigma doesn’t have his cybernetics which are mainly used to keep him controlled (especially the head ones) in that same comic

[azure flint]

this lore shit serious

[shrewd pivot]

I mean. Imagine having a visibly disabled character suddenly be retconed as "able bodied just wearing armor" lol.

What's next, are we to say Mei wears glasses for fashion and not for poor eyesight? Can we NOT infer Mei canonically has poor eyesight, just because it's not outright confirmed in text she uses glasses to see better? I think it's a bit ridiculous to say "Mei has eyesight issues so she wears glasses" isn't canon (she is animated putting on glasses in her cinematic when she wakes), so implying Vishkar architects don't use prosthetic arms, when the arms have robot finger joints in 3d models, is equally odd.

[wise grotto]

Genji also drinks through his mask and cass has a normal hand but not the arm part

Lws one of a few little inconsistencies in this
So unless Lws arm is just really badly designed

Which for it to be consistent in all except a single comic panel and sprays(which are known for being inconsistent like the pale and white junker Sym spray)

[shrewd pivot]

Deadlock/Blackwatch Cassidy skin has two human arms, but it fits his lore because he lost his arm later on. Otherwise most skins with Cassidy keep his robot arm, as it should be.

[wise grotto]

On a side note I need a skin of Moira from the together comic now

[azure flint]

are they ever gonna explain how cass lost his arm

10 year mystery atp

[shrewd pivot]

Overwatch Declassified mentioned it iirc? It was an accident that occured when Cassidy was in Blackwatch iirc?

[lyric chasm]

I have no recollection of that being mentioned in Declassified

I swear I would've remembered if they did

[shrewd pivot]

I remember it was some kind of mission statement I think Reyes was involved on that mission too?

Maybe im misremembering let me find the source

[lyric chasm]

He had a human arm up until the King's Row uprising, which is when BW were only him and Reyes operating illegally (BW was banned)

I'm assuming he probably lost his arm after that

[shrewd pivot]

I swear I remember seeing some kind of blip text about Cassidy losing an arm, hm.

Well, I might be misremembering, pardon.

[lyric chasm]

no problem

I took a look and I can't find any mention of it

at least not in Declassified

I wonder if they had a justification for it or it was just "cool looking"

ig theyll have to come up with it eventually

or they don't find it necessary to the lore

i'm fine with that, gives me more leeway for writing haha

[shrewd pivot]

I recall it being something kind of mission blurp, like a paragraph with ui around it. Maybe it was a Twitter post? I genuinely don't know, I apologize if this is extreme misremembering on my part.

Actually wait if Uprising was 7 years ago in overwatch 1, then Uprising is 9 years ago in overwatch 2.

The Awakening occured around 26 years ago in overwatch 2.

26-9= 17. Ramattra, and all other awakened omnics, were awakened for only 17 years at Uprising.

(Omnics probably awoke with adult-like brains (omnics did not awaken with infant brains), so kind of like "adult human with amnesia". So awakened omnics are not mentally 17 at Uprising, more like idk mentally 27 or something, still that's rough.)

[lyric chasm]

Yep, but I don't think age is relevant in omnics the same way it is in humans, because to our species it defines one's brain's maturity, but omnics don't have our biology

[lyric chasm]

no harm done

[wise grotto]

Omnics developed collective consciousness at once from a program
They didn’t need to develop the same way a human would do it’s kinda more as. Less complicated then we would ever be

[lyric chasm]

i too want to know more about the cowboy with spurs and no horse

no ranch

just a poser

[wise grotto]

Like they just started with knowledge on a lot of things personalities and mostly just being functioning people

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, I would say an Omnic that is only awoken for only a few months is still too naive, but an Omnic awoken for like idk 15 years is easily adult level because omnics don't have infancy/childhood where the brain develops, omnics are 'awoken' with near fully developed adult minds, seemingly.

[lyric chasm]

I'm assuming only hardware would be holding them back

for the rest we can assume they started with the brain capailities of a fully grown adult

and the rest is only dependent on whether they wanted to gain knowledge of certain things or not

like humans can

[wise grotto]

See we don’t actually know how they where from the get go
We just know they’d essentially have all there experienced up till that point whatever hardware they have and a full amount of conciousness
Most omnics we see are a similar model csuse it was used for doing regular things a lot in the world

We have no actual ground for how they adapted just that they where now regular people immediately put the gate

Just omnics

[shrewd pivot]

Human adults that have full amnesia need time to learn/relearn (and Zenyatta calls his past memories dream like), so I assume omnics would need time to find themselves.

I only say this, because Hazard x Susie is canon and overwatch has shown civilian omnics dating.

I also think scifi worldbuilding is neat lol and the discussions on lifespan and life stages is interesting for scifi. (How does a species without childhood navigate the world? Etc)

[wise grotto]

They probably would but many would have had knowledge from normal programming
Many also went to be monks and live among themselves for the first while to figure things out

[lyric chasm]

We can assume they function like Echo did, if Liao's report are anything to go by, they may have the same neuron system in their brains as any of Liao's creations, but Liao herself was never able to recreate another Aurora

Echo did take some time to grow

[shrewd pivot]

And she's been in stasis, so even though she is 14, she hasn't lived 14 years.

Same with Bastion, we don't know exactly when Bastion woke up right? Bastion probably did NOT live for 26 years awoken like other omnics did.

[shrewd pivot]

I would argue Echo might be a different set up bc laws were put in place after Aurora. Echo is self learning ai, but probably not the same set up Aurora had, otherwise Mina would have gotten into trouble breaking ai laws.

[lyric chasm]

true

[wise grotto]

Echo is just a self learning ai she isn’t actually fully sentient she’s just as close to sentient as you can be

Bastion is a much less intelligent robot then most would be and less advanced so@he’s kinda stuck needing to learn more then most ever would have

[lyric chasm]

What I meant to say is that if omnics benefitted from the same hardware as all of Liao's creations, then we could compare their learning capabilities over time to Echo's, but Ultra reminded me that when Liao created Echo, she had important restrictions

I'm assuming robots like Bastion or Bob must have had some kind of basic hardware that allowed them to have the necessary pathways to feel things because it seems like they gained the ability to after the crisis

I wonder if they'd be able to speak if given the abilities to

although in the case of someone like Bob I don't know if he would actually speak, seems like he's been used to being mute

whereas Bastion expresses himself however he can

Liao also name drops the company that does the neuron networks for Echo and such in her reports iirc

[shrewd pivot]

The Aurora awakening is sapience on par with humans if not more so. Bastion housing the awakening implies he is just as sapient as Zenyatta, it's just that Bastion is more limited in expressing himself (talking, etc)

Sapience like the kind humans have, requires intelligence.

Aurora's sapience allows for free will and decision making with empathetic understanding of the self and others. The Last Bastion cinematic shows Bastion does have some level of intelligence. We see Bastion chose to stay with Ganymede in the forest at the end which is an expression of empathy/free will, and Bastion is also depicted being curious about nature (curious observation is a sign of intelligence), as well as regretting/being scared after gunning down the area in the forest after the Woodpecker triggered him (empathy to the living things he had hurt).

[lyric chasm]

I just rememberd I should use that for a fic

[shrewd pivot]

In the PVE codex, we see how Echo and Bastion communicate. Echo in text is shown using words like a human would, while Bastion in text is very much 'robot' because he communicates through programming code.

Additionally, Bastion DOES technically talk, he is just communicating with Ganymede with whistles. Bastion is a robot so it wouldn't suprise me if he has decoded the calls Ganymede makes (many bird species not only have alarm calls, but grammar. This means sound order and context creates meaning, it's not just the sound itself. It is a type of language.)

Also fun fact, in Mandarin Chinese, thier version of "its all Greek to me" is "its all birdsong to me" which makes Bastion pretty funny,

and in both Cantonese and Mandarin Chinese it is "it's all Martian to me" which makes Juno a rather fun play too.

[lyric chasm]

I love learning about transcription through languages in translation. I used to have a "translating humor" course in college, and it was quite the exercise.

[shrewd pivot]

WAIT LOLLLL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_language
Okay so "Martian language" in Chinese is like Leet speak (Like how DVA is Leet speak for Diva) where Chinese characters are combined/used to have multiple meanings, it's very punny.

Juno's name is litterally Chinese "Martian language" Leet speak, because Juno is the goddess/spacecraft and "Ju No" in Chinese is "Vermillion promise"

Thus the part Chinese Martian's name is "Martian language" Leet Speak in Chinese, that's brilliant LOL why didn't overwatch explain this better? The VA explained the Ju No part but not the pun of "Martian Language" in Chinese.

[peak escarp]

cultural appropriation is nothing new when it comes to cosmetics

just look at all of Mercy's LNY skins

[shrewd pivot]

I believe that's bc those player regions like Mercy and enjoy the skins, Reaper's single dance emote isn't actively appealing to indigenous Costa Ricans or Afro-Latinos in Mexico lol

But yeah, atp Mercy might as well be canonically Wasian with the skins she has lol

And they never walked back the Symmetra Kali skins despite official Hindu community condemnation of the depiction.

[wise grotto]

Unfortunately for cosmetics to be changed or done something over there needs to be major backlash

[peak escarp]

I don't think it's any deeper than "this is a Mexican dance, let's give it to the Mexican-American hero"

[wise grotto]

Like the one skin witb the weird hanzo hair or the Roadhog massive hun skin

[shrewd pivot]

Now it makes me wonder why they dressed Venture in a traditional Inuit parka in the collab instead of a Mexican poncho.

[wise grotto]

“This is a Canadian hero let’s put them in the native to Canada people’s outfit”

[peak escarp]

what skin has them wearing a parka?

[wise grotto]

I think they might be referred to the avatar collab skin which
Is as basic as “venture digs in the ground lets give them tophs outfit”

[shrewd pivot]

Which is ignorance because it's a spiritual dance that is performed by specific groups, not "all Mexicans" and this dance specifically has connections to Afro-Latinos and the indigenous in Costa Rica. Like it's weird they do research into Roadhog's cultural skins and Mauga's pattern design, but then messed up with Reaper's FIRST proper dance emote.

[shrewd pivot]

In the overwatch collab with the restraunt

It depicted heroes in traditional cultural clothing: Lofeweaver, Kiriko, DVA, Wuyang, Hazard, etc

Juno wore a waitress outfit and Venture wore a traditional parka which is from Inuit culture

[peak escarp]

that's just art, not a skin

[wise grotto]

On the restaurant collab probably literally went “ventures canadian lets out them in a parka”

[peak escarp]

and yeah, they're Canadian

[wise grotto]

That’s not the same department of ow at all though

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it's a blunder then, Venture should have had a poncho from Mexico

[wise grotto]

But parkas are kinda somewhat normal in Canada most people just own more modernized ones

[shrewd pivot]

It's styled like a traditional parka, not modern day parka

[wise grotto]

It’s not really a blunder as much as they gave venture the Canadian outfit without any regard of care for any of it

[peak escarp]

it's nice to see Venture's Canadian side represented, since their Mexican heritage gets a lot more attention in their voice lines

[wise grotto]

I wasn’t even aware the collab existed so I don’t think much care was actually put into it

[shrewd pivot]

I deem that a blunder, they represented Lifeweaver, Hazard, etc with traditional clothing.

[peak escarp]

Venture is also represented with traditional clothing

I don't see the problem here

[sand veldt]

Who or what is the iris and why did sigma go insane when he met it

[craggy thistle]

Dude I am so hyped that even if they do NOT reveal them (jetpack cat) I am aleady drawing a cat for the base of it lmfaoo

[peak escarp]

the Iris is Aurora's consciousness turned into an anomaly, and Sigma didn't go insane when he met the Iris

[shrewd pivot]

Nah, Giving Venture a traditional parka as "traditional Canada clothing" without Venture being canonically indigenous first nations, is like giving Ashe Moccasins as "traditional USA clothing" when she's not canonically indigenous heritage.

[wise grotto]

Oh it was a Japanese caffès choices
Not only was this not blizzard capable of being the one in control but Japan is decently well known for understanding next to nothing about the western cultures EVER

[peak escarp]

it's still traditional clothing

[sand veldt]

Aurora?

[wise grotto]

I’m willing to bet if I get to see hazard it’s just gonna be also wrong or not even Scottish in particular

[sand veldt]

And I thought iris is the reason Sigma was insane

[peak escarp]

watch Genesis

https://youtu.be/PIYMn8eDskg

[sand veldt]

Dude I came here to talk about lore not to get directed to a video

[peak escarp]

the video is the lore

[shrewd pivot]

I presume it's an oopsie then and not a hint.

Juno isn't wearing Vietnamese clothing(labeled "mars") and Orisa was labeled "Africa" instead of "Nigeria" or "Numbani"

[wise grotto]

Juno’s outfit comes from 1950 America diner things

[peak escarp]

it explains everything about Aurora

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Juno's is a reference to route 66 imo

[wise grotto]

Yea it’s an oopsie because japans not the most considerate of western culture accuracy’s

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, Hazard's was pretty decent.

[wise grotto]

Hazards is like
A kilt and leather jacket

That’s all I can see and that means pretty much nothing

It just isn’t a traditional outfit it’s more referencing the idea of one much like ventures would he at that point

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, Hazard's is no differently stereotypical than DVA's outfit in the collab

[peak escarp]

so Venture's is just an oopsie but Reaper's has to be a hint?

[wise grotto]

Oh it’s just NOT traditional though
Dvas at least definitely has roots in it hazards is like a normal dudes outfit

[shrewd pivot]

Venture is a collab with another company

Reaper is direct reference in the game, devs have control over that.

[wise grotto]

This really just looks like a “Japan not caring much about western culture and just doing there idea of it”

[shrewd pivot]

And the other heroes wear cultural clothing too, it's not super duper formal for all of them, it's just a cultural clothing rep

[wise grotto]

Yea but hazards could just be
A dude from Ireland or Scotland or jsut any culture that has a kilt

Ventures hilariously is more accurate csuse it’s at least the right country

[peak escarp]

Hammond must be Japanese then, since he has a sumo emote and sumo has important cultural significance to Japanese people

[wise grotto]

Hazards is non specific

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah the choices for Venture made me cringe lol. Maple syrup pancakes and tacos, but the menu had fries. No poutine? No flan or tres leches?

[wise grotto]

Like
This isn’t very serious but hazards is just not even a specific enough to work you could give Moira the same outfit

[peak escarp]

they called it poutine, but it lacked cheese curds

[wise grotto]

Again japans glorified version of cultures is usually what they care about in these

A Japanese American burger meal you get at a restaurant isn’t even remotely an actual burger as example

They’re called hamburger steaks more often

By anyone slee

Else

[shrewd pivot]

Ohhhh that's hysterical.

[wise grotto]

This isn’t much deeper outside of “Japan doesn’t care that much”

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, but idk it was nice to see Freja, Kiriko, DVA, Lifeweaver, Wuyang, Hazard, Illari, and even Orisa(atleast, her clothing) having cultures shown for a collab. Just wish it was handled a bit better, would have been cool for Juno to have Vietnamese culture instead of the diner thing.

And I agree about Hazard being 'generic' but it's hard to say without a larger picture, I think only a few characters got full body art right?

He has Scotch pie instead of Haggis atleast lol

[wise grotto]

Yea no it was pretty much not gonna be very accurate or good cause it’s Japan
No real reason to have any higher expectations

[shrewd pivot]

Wait i just saw this.

Are you actually comparing a shitposting genetically modified hamster character doing taunts seen in video games (he isn't doing the actual shiko motions that is used in Shinto beliefs to purify the ring by Sumo wrestlers),

to a human character who is American with Mexican heritage acurately performing a spiritual indigenous dance that is solely about scaring away colonizers?

Or are you doing a leetle trolling

I think it's ok to discuss WHY reaper got that dance emote. It's either implying heritage for Reaper, or overwatch did a big oopsie by giving Reaper that emote.

[peak escarp]

it's a little trolling, a little pointing out that having a cultural emote doesn't necessarily mean anything

I honestly don't think it's any deeper than "Mexican dance for Mexican hero"

[shrewd pivot]

They gave Pharah regalia skins, then went on to clarify she was half First nations, her dad is First Nations, Coast Salish iirc.

[peak escarp]

they gave Roadhog two Maori skins yet they adamantly refuse to confirm that he's Maori

iirc they never confirmed her father's tribe (only that he's from the PNW), but the art style for her skins is Coast Salish, so the math adds up

[shrewd pivot]

The writers also did research to find an appropriate name and unironically landed on "English" as a last name because of that.

[peak escarp]

the writer of Declassified

not specifically the Blizzard writers

[shrewd pivot]

Roadhog heavily implied to be of Māori heritage, his first name and skins. But iirc he's born in Australia

[peak escarp]

many Maori are born in Australia

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah

I just meant canonically he was born in Australia iirc, he didn't move from New Zealand to Australia iirc

[peak escarp]

correct

I mean, not like we really know anything about his youth or background

but I assume when the writer said "Roadhog is Australian" that's what he meant

[shrewd pivot]

Doesn't mean he isn't Māori heritage, it's heavily implied because of his name and traditional Māori skins.

You wouldn't make a non Māori character wear traditional tattoos https://www.pinterest.com/pin/1113515076593839456/

[peak escarp]

I like to believe that under his mask, Mako has Ta moko

[shrewd pivot]

I have yet to see a fanart that depicts that, that would be a really cool design for Roadhog if overwatch ever wants to desecrate the mask mystery in the future

[peak escarp]

all the unmasked fanart I've seen have given him deformities and/or tusks

[brittle sky]

He's the last hard masked guy standing

[peak escarp]

likewise all the unmasked fanart of Reaper have him demonic, deformed, covered in eyes, etc.

[shrewd pivot]

I've seen some fanart that give him 'underbite' canines when he smiles but nothing extreme like that.

[peak escarp]

we do (almost) have a canon face under Reaper's mask

[shrewd pivot]

Unmasked reaper is albino deadpool looking (major scarring) in my heart ❤️

[peak escarp]

although I bet his scarring has gotten worse since then

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah probably. I can't imagine speaking has been getting easier for him, it probably hurts to breathe and talk. He does experience chronic pain, as his voiceline indicates with Moira.

[peak escarp]

I liked that headcanon even before it became canon

[shrewd pivot]

Same, it just made sense for his situation

[peak escarp]

also any scenario of heroes experiencing phantom limb syndrome

[shrewd pivot]

Oof yeah.

Though, that just gave a vivid image of Junkrat screaming bloody murder when he thinks his foot got stepped on/shot or something, but it didn't because he has a peg leg there, and even his peg leg remained unscathed. So it's some kind if dramatic "AHHHHHHH-- oh im ok." Pft

[peak escarp]

I wonder if having more advanced cybernetics makes those feelings better or worse

since a cybernetic arm functions like a real arm, but it's not your flesh

and according to the Sojourn novel, they don't have the same range of sensation (which Sojourn used to her advantage)

[shrewd pivot]

The level of phantom limb pain would depend if there is touch feedback in the prosthesis (that exists irl today!)

It also depends if the prosthesis is a 'crank' activation (like a wrist bending to make a prosthetic hand give a thumbs up) versus a thought activation (the nerve that would control the finger directly connected to the corresponding part of the prosthesis)

The more 'direct' sensory information your brain gets from a prosthesis, the more your body incorporates it in your body map. That sense of being able to tell where your hand is without looking is called "proprioception". The brain's "body map" is the reason phantom limb pain exists.

People born without a left arm usually do not experience phantom limb pain for a left arm.

[peak escarp]

I imagined it was more like the type that is powered by muscle impulses in the surrounding muscles, or maybe even hooked directly into the nervous system

more advanced than we currently have

they still owe us the story of Cassidy's arm

they should also answer the question of whether Vishkar architechs all have forced prosthetics or if they just wear gauntlets and Symmetra is a special case

[shrewd pivot]

For Sojourn's cases, it can be explained that her prosthesis is 'out of date' and not top of the line, so sensation would not be on par with organic sensation.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah.

Like, it's not a bad thing to have hardlight be a very hard thing for organic life to control so you have to use a soecial prosthesis to weild it, it would explain why Lifeweaver's biolight is so sought after.

[peak escarp]

it is notable that all the architechs seen here have it on their right, while Symmetra's is on her left

also Blizzard, give us the names of his family, and everyone's family

I need names for my Father's Day/Mother's Day tribute posts

I guess I can add Emre's parents this year

[shrewd pivot]

In India, the left hand (POV, so Symmetra's prosthetic hand) is the 'unclean' and non dominant hand. In India, people eat with the right hand, handshake with right hand. I presumed the arm choice was commentary on Symmetra one: not being symmetrical, and two: the unclean hand has significance as a prosthetic hand for her, given to her by Vishkar.

I am also very suprised they never directly explored caste discrimination with Symmetra. Because the Vishkar architects are obviously Bhramin, and Symmetra is written as possibly an Untouchable caste or Sudra caste, given a chance by Vishkar to work amongst Bhramin caste. That would explain why she feels to indebted to Vishkar if they 'looked past' caste discrimination.

[peak escarp]

all the mothers and fathers we have art for

-# except Mr. and Mrs. Ashe, because they're assholes

[shrewd pivot]

Lol real

[peak escarp]

oh I can update it for Vendetta too

I was specifically looking for art of the parent and their child together

so this will work

[shrewd pivot]

Also is it just me, or did that La Lupa cinematic flashback scene kind of imply Antonio might have killed his wife (or Vendetta's mom)? The she-wolf is a mother to twins in mythos, and the wolf also represented fear for Vendetta. Antonio kills the big wolf while Vendetta watches holding a wolf pup. I wonder what happened to Vendetta's mother, we don't see the mother at all iirc.

[peak escarp]

and yes I include Bob because he was more of a parent to Ashe than either of her actual parents were

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah BOB helped raise Ashe, he counts as Ashe's guardian/parental figure.

You know, hm.

If Antonio really did kill his wife/Vendetta's mother (I mean, I presume he married Vendetta's mother but idk) that would explain why Vendetta has fear turn to rage, why she's so desperate to not 'fail' the mafia life, childhood trauma of seeing her dad kill her mom would do that. Antonio haunts her even after his death, Yeesh. (And yeah, not uncommon for mafia to kill family that step out of line, even a spouse)

If this isn't the case, I just wonder what happened to Vendetta's mom because we haven't seen her mom at all.

ALSO also, the she-wolf is a mother to twins, so either Vendetta has a sibling we haven't seen yet, or Vendetta will mentor (two?) people under her when she rules Talon, is my prediction.

[brittle sky]

I can't really see either

[peak escarp]

the inspiration doesn't need to be taken literally

[brittle sky]

I wouldn't have minded they have taken the inspiration more to heart earlier in the process (antonio could have had an older kid, or vendetta could have been a sister or widow or something), but that's just because I think the cast would benefit from a wider array of female archetypes and a wider range of ages. They don't got to circle back and try to force it now that they've already done things in a different direction

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, my guess is that Vendetta represents the she-wolf that nurtured the twins that went onto (atleast one did lol) found Rome so there might be a twins motif or family killing motif of some kind of mentorship she does towards someone else.

Otherwise her Roman mythos she-wolf motif makes zero sense

Unless Vendetta being a she-wolf means nothing and it's just a random idea slapped on her (which is... possible. Freja's unique necklace seems to have zero lore and is just a pointless accessory to reference Freyja having a necklace mythos)

But that kinda. Sucks a lot to say she's the she-wolf but then not do ANYTHING with that.

[brittle sky]

I mean I think there's a loose thing - the she-wolf imagery is associated with the foundation of empires, something that is her goal. I mean she does very silly things with her wolf motif ('a wolf hunts alone' is the single most wrong thing about wolves, up to and including the alphas study), but I think the association with mythic rome's foundations are enough.

[shrewd pivot]

I mean. JunkerQueen got to be more mythologically Odysseus and Herculean feats, than Vendetta gets to be a she-wolf if the only thing she-wolf about her is founding an empire. That kinda sucks for writing, Vendetta is incredibly shallow lore wise (very simple evil for overwatch to defeat) and character design story wise (as a non augmented human she illogically survived a giant robot hit to bare skin, her-she wolf motif is barely incorporated, etc) thus far, and that's not exactly a good thing if she's meant to be the new big bad for overwatch.

Again, doomfist isn't peak writing or anything but he's much more compelling as a villain to "have hope, optumistic future" motto than Vendetta is.

Idk im trying to find reasons to be compelled by Vendetta but I can't find any beyond the hard light sword bejng kinda cool and her VA doing cool voice acting. I don't gaf about the new big bad Vendetta bc her lore is scuffed and the writing is all tell don't show. I gaf about Doomfist and Orisa+Efi. I gaf about Mauga and his bluffing and connection to Baptiste. I gaf about JunkerQueen, she was a great villain to add. I gaf about Moira, also a great villain to add.

I don't gaf about Wuyang either because his lore is scuffed, and Freja to me is kind of a nothing burger bc she does little with elevating the scifi world building but atleast her lore is showcasing og overwatch corruption and Emre.

Hazard was very compelling lore wise to me, I was just disappointed by his design being santized to look less cyberpunk body modder.

I do feel like Domina/Vaira might be more on track with overwatch characters elevating scifi world building tho, and I am compelled by her lore because Vishkar lore impacts many characters on the roster and Vaira is the granddaughter of the founder, the founder who was seemingly killed so his technology could be profited from I am guessing. I wonder if Domina will be the reason Symmetra will defect from Vishkar and join LW at the Atlantic Arcology? And idk it wouldn't suprise me if Vaira/Domina or her parent was the one to kill the founder to get the rights to profit off the technology. It would be a big reveal and something that could take down Vishkar if it ever got out to the public. That, or the founder's death is a part of a grander conspiracy or something.

[brittle sky]

more interesting thatn sym defecting and joining some other faction (something she was on track to do before lw, and was on track to do without dom) would be staying within the vishkar system to try to wrest it back towards an original vision of the founder, even it meants opposing the executives (who include the founder's own descendants).

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, Symmetra could go from 'secret agent spy for Vishkar' to 'double agent against Vishkar' and still keep her hero fantasy.

I would just think it to be not very optumistic if Symmetra has to live in a very unhealthy enviorment for the rest of her life, masking so she can maintain authority in Vishkar to fix Vishkar.

Ideally, Symmetra would get the chance to eventually feel safe stimming in public. Not being afraid of being visibly autistic. It's incredibly tragic that Symmetra only feels safe stimming in front of Lifeweaver. Stimmimg is how autistic people regulate thier bodies, express themselves, and find joy, stimming is a coping tool autistic people use and Vishkar denying Symmetra the ability to feel safe stimming is an evil.

Symmetra definitely has done wrong things, but she is working against the indoctrination and guilt she feels with feeling like she owes Vishkar for saving her.

She should have an arc that allows her to redeem herself by working against current corrupt Vishkar in some manner, imo.

[brittle sky]

I think her leaving to whatever is a non story. That can be a story end, but avoiding conflict in the name of optimism actively erodes narrative

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, Symmetra can still work to take down Vishkar from the Atlantic Arcology, no? She has insider intel on Vishkar, and would make a good double agent. I am also wanting to see more lore about the Arcology, like what kinds of ais are held there.

[brittle sky]

The comfort of characters should not be a reason to tell a less interesting story.

Just stepping off to vaguely oppose her old bosses (by what, grassroots corporate terrorism?) among the seasteaders doesn't engage with what makes vishkar interesting (the tension between its utopia vision and legitimate capacity to do good and its ruthless methods, corporate motives, and imperial effects).

Just extracting the character we like from a faction we don't is just seeking moral flatness to the setting. It's like making the phreaks suddenly decide new overwatch is pretty tubular and they should team up, because we broadly like the phreaks and broadly like neo ow

[shrewd pivot]

Vishkar is fundamentally corrupt tho, it's not actually reasonable for Symmetra alone to change. Vishkar needs to be taken down for it's crimes, and then hardlight probably given to some kind of patent system similar to the Ironclad.

Torbjörn got to go from anti omnic to pro omnic, from bejng apart of overwatch to retirjng to be with family, I don't see that as a bad thing.

Vishkar is presenting Vaira/Domina as tied to the founder who Symmetra is looking into why he died, I presume some drama will occur there regardless.

It would just be unsatisfying for Symmetra to remain in limbo in vishkar, it will eventually paint her as fully corrupt for chosing comfort with vishkar over standing up to do the right thing. If she tries to work within vishkar to change things for the better, ok ig but Symmetra has to mask to do that. As a double agent, atleast Symmetra gets to decompress outside yknow? It also lets Arcology lore be explored while Vaira/Domina (i assume she will be a hero) explores more vishkar lore.

[pseudo iron]

chat

is the wiki a good place to find overwatch lore

[merry mason]

Eh not really

Ppl just straight up lie on there

[grand hedge]

Is it just me or is overwatch focussing a little bit more on lore? The last couple of media pieces seem lore related and its been sort of frequent

[wise grotto]

They hired a full brand new team to exclusively focus on lore not long ago now

[merry mason]

They’re ramping it up for the announcement today but we’ll see if it lasts

[grand hedge]

Looks like a good day to start getting into it

[wooden drift]

Im so giddy for that cinematic

[grand hedge]

im catching up with the cinematics cause i didnt care about lore for the majority of my playtime but recently gained intrest and im now watching and reading as much as i can. It looks intresting

[wise grotto]

Again they literally hired a full team exclusively to work on lore for the Long term

[brittle sky]

I will retain my deep disinterest with both the moral simplicity of just sending sym into the world and surrendering vishkar to just be the corrupt playground of vaira. Stories don't have to be reasonable, or fair, especially when it's about making a better world.

And torb's arc and him not rejoining overwatch was clearly to isolate rein as the last of the old guard still in the game (y'know, before killing him off) and required them to drop the interesting original motivation (looking into the mystery of people misusing or misappropriating his weapon tech). It wasn't a happily ever after, just a position for the null arc.

We have someone on the arcology. We can explore the collective's nft based economy or whatever through him. We do not have anyone who represents the utopic promise vishkar pushed (even or especially if we read that promise as purely a lie), actively there to dig things up the underbelly, or insist it becomes what it pretends to be.

Disillusion and wandering off your friend's crypto commune is easy, and frankly rather small in its hopes. I want to see them be bolder than that for sym. She's one of like 5 characters left with moral complexity. I don't want the writers to squander that, and I'm far more interested in her making moves that are narratively and thematically interesting than what is "right" on a logistical or pragmatic level.

The main guys think getting like five super cops to punch the bad guys is what will save the world. Actually reasonable went out the door from the jump.

[brittle sky]

I would definitely be careful not to assume that equates to this frequency of lore all the time. I think even with whatever extra team it's very likely they intensified the output a good deal to ramp up to today's stuff.

[grand wedge]

Oh, btw, to the person who was arguing about LW arm : I got the confirmation that it is, indeed, a gauntlet.

Lifeweaver has both his arms.

Not a prosthetic

[brittle sky]

Following up on that: the copy pasted vishkar architects - also covering about as his gauntlet would?

[wise grotto]

So it’s just a really shittily designed gauntlet then

Csuse
No human arm should be capable of fitting and moving in something shaped like that

Actually thag makes like all the architect arms that have been looked at in any amount closely aside from Syms to kinda suck as gauntlets

[peak escarp]

Pharah's suit also has joints that shouldn't fit a human body

it's artistic license

[mossy vale]

Fr, rein also is a normal human size under the armor as shown in the cinematic, but the game models are well..

How do I post images here

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/744903041974665236/1468619526345330730/image.png?ex=6984ae04&is=69835c84&hm=71411f340bebcf2831a3510e23448be6e77ab4db8204f109ff2c49ebf8e1ea63&

Wait I think I got it

[wise grotto]

Pharahs is well communicated that it’s just a suit
The fingers hsve ball joints on lw which just
Doesn’t work

[wise grotto]

You need regular to post images

[mossy vale]

Basically the game vs lore models are diff I feel like

Ah

[wise grotto]

True but in every piece or art those ball joints also exist

They’re even on dominas fingers

And the only other times a hand has ball joints like thag in the game is on prosthetics like syms

So this just feels like shitty design to know they’re gauntlets

[mossy vale]

Yeah I thought they had robotic arms

I thought LW was missing a hand because of the ball joints

[peak escarp]

that didn't stop people from thinking she had robotic arms/legs for a long time until it was debunked

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4k5v5y/pharahs_comic_confirms_shes_missing_limbs_and/

people also thought Hanzo had robot legs because his ankles are so thin

[wise grotto]

In those cases they’re reaching hard csuse nobody else’s prosthetics are identical to
Thin ankles
And armour

Ball joints have only been on robots and prosthetics (apparently aside from two people who have 0 reason to have ball joints there)

[peak escarp]

so it's a bad design then

not the first and not the last

[grand wedge]

nothing said about the Vishkar architects, i can only confirm Lifeweavers tech is a gauntlet

[brittle sky]

Roger.

[wise grotto]

Yea that’s pretty much what i was saying a shitty design that shouldn’t have been done especially if it’s only done otherwise on robots or prosthetics

[glad fox]

What is the reason that roadhog wears a mask but junkrat and junker queen dont

The explanation I see is to filter radioactive air, but wouldn't that affect them too?

[spare fox]

It's to consume that gas that contracts radiation

[wise grotto]

Yea

That’s why he twists it on when he uses take a breather

[languid kindle]

is kiriko married?

[spare fox]

No

[languid kindle]

her surname was originally yamagami

but she changed it to kamori

[spare fox]

She changed it to hide

[languid kindle]

oh

right

[brittle sky]

We don't strictly know what hogdragen is doing for roadhog

[brittle sky]

Yeah she just took on her grandmother's surnane

[languid kindle]

oh

[spare fox]

Just that it's treating the effects of radiation... not sure why the other junkers don't use it. Maybe they're just crazy

[wise grotto]

I mean we know Junkrat is

[glad fox]

Also are the junkers like mutated in some way? I have not seen that mention but they seem superhuman

[wise grotto]

Hog comes from New Zealand so he might not be used to it

[wise grotto]

Most characters generally seem superhuman I’ll be honest

[brittle sky]

Per visual sourcebook, gotcha.

[brittle sky]

I don't think we see any evidence of visible mutation. If your guy named Geiger isn't a mutant, you probably don't got mutants.

[glad fox]

Who's geiger

[lyric chasm]

tbf it feels like the lore has always been both capable of complexity and sometimes also very childlike/cartoon-like morality

[wise grotto]

The town counter

[spare fox]

It's kind of a dystopia kitchen sink sci-fi.... sometimes it's awful sometimes it's "lol two headed cow tastes good"

[grand wedge]

Geiger is the guy JQ saved by pushing him oout of the way while the giant magnet had him pined down

[lyric chasm]

the rating probably doesn't help in elevating the lore sometimes

[spare fox]

I disagree, the T rating and optimism/silliness are endearing and unique

It's not just another grimdark dystopian future

[lyric chasm]

Well, there are ways to handle mature themes, and having a mature rating doesn't mean it would have had to be all grim and dystopian

[brittle sky]

Kinda burying the lede there that she fought him first.

[brittle sky]

That dual mode has been there from the beginning. At its best it takes the cartoon morality, throws in a lot of complications and nuance, then finds a final hopeful cord. Other times... Less so.

[peak escarp]

I like that Overwatch has an optimistic setting

there's already enough media about grimdark futures

[shrewd pivot]

You know what? I respect that. I suppose I was invested because I personally find Symmetra to still be morally grey even if she leaves Vishkar now bc she has done very harmful things and then must actively pursue undoing further harm to actually be a "hero," (like, it took her years to finally realize things, she actively blew up that building in her comic, she saw issues vishkar created but still 'justified' things)

But I totally get where you are coming from. It IS valuable to have Symmetra remain with certain morality complexity by not leaving Vishkar, and that alone should suffice keeping her there to explore that philosophy of hers.

Your point about Torbjörn retiring being a set up for Reinhardt to go sacrifice himself (and perhaps Torbjörn even changes his mind after?) that, is a very good one.

Ty for the discussion, your points were well made and explained and I respect that! Definitely gave me a lot to think about.

[shrewd pivot]

Oh dang. Can I get a link to that? Not that I don't believe you (I do), but I like to have sources saved and would like to see context/exact wording if that's ok.

[grand wedge]

I cant, but i'm in the Creator Programm, i asked about LW arm if it was prothetic or gaunltet, they said "gauntlet" and they direct quoted the comic.

and asked if i could share, and i could 🙂

[brittle sky]

Sure. But I think pursuit of moral simplicity can often weaken that optimism. See: taking oasis as a hopeful vision for that area as a thriving place of culture and science and leaning into its dystopic aspects exclusively because of their association with Moira.

[wise grotto]

I wish they’d not model ball joints for fingers on gauntlets then
Now all of vishkar except sym looks a tiny bit stupid

[shrewd pivot]

The Junkers DO use hogdrogen, it's called hogdrogen because it's "hogged" so much by the Junkers. There's a story where Roadhog has to sell scrap to Junkertown to get hogdrogen iirc, it seems like Roadhog was living in the outskirts and had to use extra hogdrogen to counteract radiation poisoning, while the junkers that stayed within Junkertown had better access, before Roadhog teamed up with Junkrat.

and technically... yeah metal plating DOES help shield against radiation. It wouldn't suprise me if parts of the outback were actually more radioactive than certain parts of Junkertown. (Obviously the core where the meltdown occured would be more potent). The wind can carry radioactive materials for miles and that fully contaminates and local water sources.

I would be suprised if the super coral that spread across the globe, hadn't reached Australia's coasts and is maybe interacting or protecting the oceans from extreme radioactive poisoning. Iirc the supercorals actively process pollutants.

[shrewd pivot]

Okay, thank you.

Could you do me a mega biggest favor.

Can we get confirmation on if Ramattra and Zenyatta were intended in canon to be "monastic brothers dynamic" AND "familial found family siblings" dynamic? Like how Genji and Kiriko are intended in lore as platonic-only found family, Ramattra and Zenyatta do actually see eachother as familial brotherly in some fashion, right?

I don't care if Ramattra and Zenyatta instead are simply monastic-"brother" only in canon, I am just very curious what the intended canon is meant to be there.

Also I am looking at Pharah's overwatch 1 design, I am not seeing anything that couldn't simply be armor? Her small ankles isn't anything new since Hanzo has very small ankles too. And in overwatch 2, they made it even more visually clear that Pharah is wearing armor not prosthesis.

[merry mason]

Well people thought hanzos small ankles were indicative of prosthetics too

[shrewd pivot]

And once they confirmed it's organic, it shows it's stylization no different than characters having giant hands lol

[merry mason]

Also I don’t see how a monastic brother couldn’t be a a adoptive-ish brother I thought that was the point of calling each other that?

[merry mason]

Yeah but before then

[shrewd pivot]

The Lifeweaver confirmation is very shocking to me because it's impossible to have robotic ball joints like that and fit a human finger underneath it.

The elbow and knees can be large jointed armor, but tiny fingers cannot have entire ball joints like that for armor.

[wise grotto]

I WAS RIGHT ABOUT THE ARMS LETS GO

[merry mason]

Plus I like the idea that all architechs have to sacrifice a limb and if they can just wear a glove it’s like 😒 okay

[shrewd pivot]

See, from canon I always read Ramattra and Zenyatta as a dynamic that can't be anything other than platonic.

Mondatta, Zenyatta, and Ramattra read as a platonic only dynamics in canon, because while yes it's monkhood, it's also a found family.

Mondatta reads as a strictly Master to student dynamic to Zenyatta and Ramattra. And Ramattra and Zenyatta read as strictly brother like in both monastic senses and familial found family senses.

Like, how Pharah sees Cassidy as a brother, Zenyatta sees Ramattra as a brother too kind of deal.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah. Yeah.... it becomes much less interesting imo if Symmetra is the only one with a prosthetic arm.

But yeah, Lifeweaver is canonically a gauntlet, not a prosthetic, it seems.

[wise grotto]

Same
Now it’s just kinda like “well t he architects just make there own weapons like any other group in the series they just have a theme”

[merry mason]

Like why did Sym do it then?

Just don’t

[wise grotto]

she lost an arm during the omnic invasion

So the prosthetic was on the opposite side as every other architect

Which I assumed the unique part was gonna be opposite hand
Not only prosthetic

WERE GETTING A NEW YOKAI GROUP MEMBER YALL

[shrewd pivot]

(Looks at the Colosseo gladiators being turned from humans using VR suits piloting robot bodies(poster) and omnics(chariot, statues), to being retconned into mostly WWE human wrestlers wearing armor.)

Haha hey guys imagine if we explored yet another human group wearing armor like Reinhardt's crusaders do or Pharah's Raptora suit or Mercy's Valkerie suit. Scifi prosthesis integration? Nah that's only for Sombra and Genji and Soujourn getting prosthesis out of survival, and the Phreaks get to have the fun instead: but you can't be TOO unconventional body-modder about it, Hazard can't have a metal jaw or maintain his wheelchair silhouette with crab legs. 🥀

Like cmon mannnnn overwatch ip has amazing worldbuilding potential there lol. If we can get a genetically modified genius talking gorilla and hamster, we can get some unconventional prosthesis/tech use (Reaper, Sombra, etc) instead of yet another able bodied human wearing armor.

[wise grotto]

Ok I’m sorry I think hazard is an insanely good design for a punk body modding character

[merry mason]

Where you get this are there leaks?

[wise grotto]

IGN posted early and deleted the post

Big big whole thing about the new update and year to come

I have the roadmap image saved

[merry mason]

Ok don’t tell me

I want a surprise

[shrewd pivot]

His design was extremely sanitized compared to concept exploring art and iterations prior. There's a design that looks just like his current day design but it had green hair and a metal jaw, but felt the need to give him blonde hair and a human face.

[wise grotto]

Ok

[wise grotto]

I honestly hated the jaw

[merry mason]

Hope it’s raccoon guy don’t say if I’m right or wrong

[wise grotto]

Like
Geniunely disliked the jaw in ever way it looked like it was going out of its way to look like a borderlands character with the jaw

[merry mason]

I think the main problem is his biggest most inhuman modification in on his back where you can’t see it

[wise grotto]

I’d agree but you see it constantly and he’s only got one arm that’s even usable

[shrewd pivot]

His phreaks logo tongue tatoo legit has a one eyed skull (implying one cybernetics eye) with a split jaw or spiked jaw. Him having a metal jaw would have made him unique on the roster, like how roadhog has his mask.

[wise grotto]

Regardless I just hated how the jaw looked imo

[shrewd pivot]

And a plain human chin was the better option over changing the metal jaw to look better?

Punk has NEVER been about looking conventionally attractive, it is about being visually LOUD and self expressing.

[wise grotto]

I have only seen the huge metal jaws look good on characters meant to be imposing and cruel

Otherwise they just look ass to me@and just never mesh with a character

[shrewd pivot]

And that's the point. He looks like a "Phreak" but he isn't a monster.

[shrewd pivot]

Tell me why JunkerQueen looks more punk than the official cyberpunk body modder character. Hazard should look more punk than the junkers do.

The idea that looking unconventional = bad guy is antithetical to overwatch's whole thing of not judging a book by its cover. A hero can look like any one or anything. It can be a freaking talking space gorilla, a regular joe shmoe like Jack Morrison, a robot built for war like Bastion, or even a small child like Efi with Orisa being able to stand up and protect Numbani, etc.

[wise grotto]

Haz looks like he came from cyberpunk
Junkerqueen is a@madmax character

Again I did emphasize this though
I personally hate the huge jaws in characters like that

[shrewd pivot]

Hazard looks like a poser punk (aesthetics, not punk philosophy), not a real punk. Dying your hair blonde is not punk buddy 😭

[shrewd pivot]

I mean. I get it, you hate the idea, but don't you think his prosthesis as the BODY MODDER character could have been pushed further atleast? He's not doing anything Doomfist (weapon arm, abs) and Sojourn (human skin prosthesis) and Genji(acrobatics/built in weapons prosthesis) and Junkers(Hazard has less punk outfits) haven't already covered, besides the glowing spikes.

[shrewd pivot]

That is hysterical btw.

[merry mason]

They do it every time

[median orchid]

Games journalists not leaking anything challenge Impossible

[fallow mantle]

oh hell yeah

cinematic 🔥

[dusk granite]

what a way to go, they handled his death perfectly

[keen summit]

Mauga was excited

[fossil wren]

RIP DOOMFIST

GG

[median orchid]

Hell yeah

Cinematicsss

[fallow mantle]

THAT CINEMATIC WAS AWESOME

[keen summit]

Emre gameplay

[fallow mantle]

way better than the leak made out

[edgy tree]

Doomfist got nerfed so hard wth

[wise grotto]

I feel like the care that hazard isn’t as normal punk asthetic is (to me) makin it less punk if he was

[median orchid]

No way

[keen summit]

I love this

[median orchid]

Story based seasons and stuff

[fossil wren]

WE WON

[median orchid]

WE ARE SO BACK

[fossil wren]

WE WON

WE ARE SO BACK

[edgy tree]

She just cut the most powerfull weapon like it's nothing dx

oh that's cool 5 hero releases at once

[fossil wren]

NO WAY

[edgy tree]

I'm guessing it's all the new guys we've seen so far

[frail hare]

racism and favoritisim

[hearty citrus]

10 new heroes Jesus

[edgy tree]

also I'm glad they didn't actually kill Doom I was hoping they weren't gonna do that

[fossil wren]

SHE IS A TANK

TANKS MAINS WE WON

[edgy tree]

WE are gonna see all the new heroes at the same time rn

[keen summit]

HELL YEA

[edgy tree]

Hitscan tank with good poke

and segmented shield kinda like mei wall

[weary quarry]

I loved Mauga expressions and moira being nonchalant lol

[edgy tree]

Her ult ain't gonna get countered by suzu

that's really nice

[bold fern]

@keen summit

[edgy tree]

Eyyyy I called it

[bold fern]

:(((((((

[edgy tree]

cybernetics

[bold fern]

:(((

:(((

[edgy tree]

Emre is piloted (also dps)

[bold fern]

:((((

[edgy tree]

burst fire like Bap

[keen summit]

SOMBRA ARG

DID YOU SEE THE CONCEPT ART

[edgy tree]

he ain't dead at least

[keen summit]

Uhm

[edgy tree]

Ur talking about the conspiracy?

[fossil wren]

WE ARE

SO BACK

GG DOOMFIST

THANK YOU FOR DYING

[keen summit]

Yup

[edgy tree]

that was in her trailer as well

Emre got hela ult lol

[keen summit]

Ik but

[median orchid]

We got a hashimoto hero

Talon aligned

Mizuki

[bold fern]

he cant die that easily

[keen summit]

The ult too

Hashimoto

[fossil wren]

HASHIMOTO HERO

NO WAY

[edgy tree]

yeah We didn't really see him hit any rocks

bro was just gone

[median orchid]

We are so backk

[edgy tree]

Oh his primary fire bounces of walls

[median orchid]

Omfg

The CAT DRONE IS REAL

[edgy tree]

he has cagefight on one guy as a cooldown

Anran dps (ofc)

[median orchid]

I CANT WITH THE CAT CONTROLLED DRONE

[bold fern]

ppl thought i was insane

[edgy tree]

I mean why th would they kill off Doom

[bold fern]

we getting doomfist skin right haha

[median orchid]

Wait ... Watchpoint giblartar had a Red paint scheme

[edgy tree]

Anran can set people on fire

[median orchid]

Talon took over?

[edgy tree]

Mauga synergy fr

she has an invul ability that deals damage to enemies

[bold fern]

sombra and widow look worried

moira not so much

[edgy tree]

her ult can res her if she dies during it

[bold fern]

mauga uhh

hes his own thing

[edgy tree]

and makes a fire explosion

[bold fern]

reaper not sure

[median orchid]

The cat is real

[bold fern]

so only 2 ppl care for doom

[wheat maple]

THE CAT

[edgy tree]

he only cares about excitement

CAT

CAT OVERWATCH

[median orchid]

The cat is a stray that Brig gave a damn jetpack to

what ...

[edgy tree]

Upgrades

[bold fern]

cat

catt

cat

cat

[edgy tree]

it's a flyer support that can grab other people????

she can pick up rein and drop him off on someone

she can also grab enemies with her dash

freest enviromental kill

also new hero each season

[keen summit]

Os that

Soundquake

[spring fable]

Wait r we killing off doom first?

[keen summit]

In the back

[edgy tree]

There are sub roles now

[median orchid]

Excellentt

[edgy tree]

THEY ALL HAVE NEW PASSIVES

[median orchid]

PERKS

[edgy tree]

nope he just fell off the building

[median orchid]

No wa

[bold fern]

yeah i dont think tanks are gonna have fun

[median orchid]

No way

The choose your side thing was real

[edgy tree]

mini battlepasses

[edgy tree]

You want to play Rein?

Into the killzone for you

[median orchid]

Lore based skinssss

[spring fable]

OMG 5 AT ONCE???

Wait wtf

Have they been secretly cooking

[median orchid]

Oh god

They gave Mercy another Mythic

[edgy tree]

Ig they don't care about the less popular heroes lol

watch kiri get her 2nd mythic skin next season

Main menu getting a full on rework

[median orchid]

Yep

They dropping Hero origin stories with the update

I saw Emre origin story in the main menu teaser

[spring fable]

Okay these designs feel more

Done

Not OW1

Bit

They feel different from each other

More texture and better placed color

Am i wrong?

[edgy tree]

ofc they reset comp again dx

[bold fern]

yall happy while my goat is cooked

of course

anyways

kill jetpack cat

[edgy tree]

Crimson weapon skins

[bold fern]

it looks good

[edgy tree]

and Crimson doom skin for getting to diamond

[median orchid]

END OF THE MATCH VOTING CARDS

Theyre back

[edgy tree]

U can vote for players like before

U can be gratefull(toxic) without using chat now ig

[bold fern]

well at least we get compensation

[median orchid]

MORE ANIMATIONJS

Talon attacks Watchpoint giblartar

[edgy tree]

Talon on the attack now

[weary quarry]

Dude

[median orchid]

Aand the 2 Is gone

[edgy tree]

no 2 anymore

[weary quarry]

Sig has to be in that cinematic they previewed

[edgy tree]

I hope the overwatch esport lootbox has the league skins

oh cool they Upgraded their engine

lighting and physics are better

even stuff like leather u can interract with

[median orchid]

We. Are. So. Back

[edgy tree]

we'll be able to play Anran tommorow

(the playtest thing)

[wooden drift]

So, doomfist is definitely alive, huh?

[edgy tree]

yeah

They did the good old Throw someone off from a great height thing just to reveal they were helped at the last moment thing

if Doom was gonna die there they'd show him hit the rocks or Vendetta would uknow.... finish him off

[wooden drift]

Doing resident evil 5 shit..

[junior panther]

the doomfist runback gunna be so peak i already know🙏

[edgy tree]

I still don't get how She won that though lol

unless Doom just let her win

[wooden drift]

Doomfist had his Ls before

[whole junco]

Alright, I don't forgive them, but it doesn't seem Doomfist is dead. I truly do think the end of the year will be Doomfist either retaking Talon, or in some way defeating Vendetta.

[edgy tree]

He did also 3 v 1 with Genji,Tracer and Winston at the same time and almost won

[wooden drift]

At least they're making new omnic hero finally

[junior panther]

well he is one of those "im always two steps ahead" kind of characters i think, like lex luther

[edgy tree]

I was thinking about that

[wooden drift]

And he got his ass beaten by orisa

[edgy tree]

Maybe he wanted to appear dead to idk work with Ram on smth

[junior panther]

thank god they are doing cinematics again

[edgy tree]

She is the unstoppable Horse lady

[bold fern]

DOES THIS MEAN OVERWATCH IS BACK?????

[junior panther]

wheres the gif

[edgy tree]

......

[lyric chasm]

it has been back for a while

[edgy tree]

YES

[bold fern]

YESSS

OWWW

[edgy tree]

I mean.....

[weary quarry]

Maybe Doom lost on purpose

[junior panther]

after the new cinematic, i think ow might be back

[weary quarry]

[wooden drift]

I dunno, why would he ever wanted to get his hand cut off

[edgy tree]

I woudn't say it was "good" tbh they were slow to do anything (at least we know why now)

[sand veldt]

Wonder what sigma was doing during the fight between Doom and Vendetta

[fossil wren]

No, Now the reign of talon begins

[weary quarry]

Ez to get a new one

[fossil wren]

On his lab

[weary quarry]

Sleeping

[wooden drift]

In his own little world talking with fairies

[fossil wren]

Sigma is merely a living weapon for Talon

[edgy tree]

"the most powerfull weapon in the overwatch universe that's unreplicable"

[sand veldt]

“What’s that noise? Fighting? Nah, it’s the melody”

[hearty citrus]

Sigma would beat doom and vendetta two v one prolly

[wooden drift]

Oh, yeah, a lot of the cast don't have arms

[edgy tree]

cut by a random ahh sword

[junior panther]

lmao

[sand veldt]

What if he’s not dead

[weary quarry]

Temu doomfist

[hearty citrus]

He might come back

[sand veldt]

What if it’s just the lore justification for his newest rework

Healfist

[junior panther]

doomfist training ark where he learns to be just as strong without his fist

[bold fern]

this proves he has the same iq as his mains

[wooden drift]

He's not dead, they did cliché falling off the cliff

[weary quarry]

Doom lost his arm, literally was 'cast' down, prob comes back with a cloak and hood on

[hearty citrus]

He punched thru a wall without the gauntlet he’s gonna be a monster if he’s back

[edgy tree]

his entire thing was that he lost his hand and coudn't participate in what he liked doing anymore (preety sure it was boxing)

[wooden drift]

Unless you're from Disney, you're surviving it

[sand veldt]

They also said “defeated” specifically avoiding the word dead

[edgy tree]

which motivated him into doing the whole Talon thing

[weary quarry]

TRUE

[pale valve]

Ok guys

[hearty citrus]

once again ramattra and cool heroes are cast aside

[bold fern]

can we at least get black suit doom as skin

[edgy tree]

He was preety strong without it

[sand veldt]

Also

[weary quarry]

No doubt we will

[sand veldt]

Where the fuck is ramattra

[lyric chasm]

1. didnt loose both shoes 2) no corpse. Rules of fiction dictate hes not dead

[hearty citrus]

They shot him in an alley

[edgy tree]

In the Antarctic omnium

[sand veldt]

Best written character btw

[azure flint]

WOOOOOOOO HOOHOOOOOOO THAT CINEMATIC

WHAT WE THINK

[hearty citrus]

Exactly the only reason I played ow was for ram

[weary quarry]

PEAK

[pastel stirrup]

that cinematic was ass im ngl

[edgy tree]

They alvays make skins from what they show in cinematics

[wooden drift]

He literally said in the comic that he'll be hiding untill humanity kills itself

[hearty citrus]

For a team that had 200 ppl wiped it was good

[weary quarry]

Finally got more talon members in 3d

[pale valve]

Doomfist is at the bottom now with nothing left and he'll see what life is like for the "weak" right? Do we think he'll finally see that it's not so easy? Maybe become a good guy?

[sand veldt]

Well

Fair lol

[pastel stirrup]

lmfao

[edgy tree]

aka Vendetta does her thing xd

[sand veldt]

Wasn’t his entire lore point that he started at the bottom?

[bold fern]

https://tenor.com/view/nub-cat-nub-silly-cat-depression-depressed-gif-5883714320658611738

[sand veldt]

Isn’t that the entire drive behind his character?

[weary quarry]

Winston might confront Sig in that future cinematic

[pale valve]

Not in the world he created

[past copper]

To EVERYONE who said this game was dead. Mahahaha eat your heart out

[pale valve]

TRUE

[edgy tree]

His entire thing is becoming stronger through conflict

[sand veldt]

Surely winton wouldn’t beat up a schizophrenic old man

[wooden drift]

Well he's philosophy always was ''conflicts makes you stronger". He's gonna be fine

[edgy tree]

He's happy about this

[median orchid]

This feels like watching Zero hour again

[pale valve]

I don't wanna see ANY overwatch haters playing the game lmao

[hearty citrus]

Saw the hello kitty collab and literally went 6 for 6 on my guesses

[weary quarry]

Surely

[past copper]

They subtly hinted at the return of PvE

[pale valve]

Sure but wouldn't it be kinda lame to just bring him back as a stronger bad guy

[junior panther]

yoo with the silhouettes it looks like theres gunna be a new oddball character

[edgy tree]

ehhhh

[hearty citrus]

The fucking cat

[pale valve]

There was a cat

[hearty citrus]

Are we deaduzz

[wooden drift]

I dunno seeing doomfist rocking Vendetta's shit would be fire

[edgy tree]

they already revealted them

[hearty citrus]

5 of them

[edgy tree]

hell all the 5 heroes we'll get in 6 days

[past copper]

I'm pretty that huge one is the mysterious Soundquake

[wooden drift]

I want this omnic character so much

[pale valve]

Ok but isn't that just

Vendetta beats Doom
Doom becomes stronger
Doom beats Vendetta
Vendetta gets stronger 😭

[wooden drift]

I prey its dps

[heady dock]

I hope they have enough time to flesh the new heroes out

[hearty citrus]

Better be a cool ass neon genesis evangelion type mech hero

[edgy tree]

That is his philosophy

[silent linden]

Love how there is no vendatta dialogue with reaper...you know who kill her father

[past copper]

Making it a new season 1 with 5 new heroes. Crazy

[edgy tree]

there is?

[wooden drift]

There is actually

[silent linden]

I mean in cinemstic

[hearty citrus]

You don’t belong here or sum like that

[pale valve]

You're missing the point that's just boring

[wooden drift]

A shame that reaper's kill voiceline is lame

[weary quarry]

Ill take a guess that Doom will reappear as a fighter in the colosseum

[wooden drift]

I expected something like "nostalgic"

Reaper could've said something cooler

[junior panther]

NEW TANK with HOLY JUGS

[wooden drift]

He said at the begining that they should've killed her

[fair halo]

don't worry guys, he'll come back as DoomKick

[hearty citrus]

I have a feeling some of the agents are gonna resent her and do some plotting on the side while working under her

[edgy tree]

Like father like dauther

[bold fern]

doomshotgun

[past copper]

Doomfist definitely not dead. We ain't seen a body and this ain't a Disney villain death. Vendetta... if you failed to kill him... Akande will retake his place

[fair halo]

doomprimaryfire

[hearty citrus]

Doomfart

[wooden drift]

Reaper definitely leaving this shit with sombra

[bold fern]

what if doom lowk just had a hidden son or daughter

[hearty citrus]

Idk about sombra prolly widow

[bold fern]

who knows what he does

[edgy tree]

yeah Sombra is definitly against the whole kill everyone shtick

[pale valve]

Also Doomfist literally became a good guy in an alternate universe (mirrorwatch) so it's not like it's impossible

[past copper]

I'm afraid of how Vendetta will treat Sigma

[edgy tree]

Widow has mutual respect with Vendetta in game so not sure ngl

[hearty citrus]

Wasn’t allat like a gag

[slow wasp]

Do yall recon doom is actually dead or did they just "kill" him off so they can bring him back as a reworked character later?

[edgy tree]

Most of us yeah

[hearty citrus]

It still wouldn’t be sombra so might just be him and some other dudes

[pale valve]

He just seemed to forget that he struggled and the only reason he got out was because of a literal overpowered handout of the strongest weapon in the verse

[wooden drift]

He's alive, man

[pale valve]

And he STILL lost to vendetta

[reef glacier]

Cinematic is DOOKIE, Akande should've NOT lose that easily!!!

[edgy tree]

Sombra ain't really into causing chaos

[slow wasp]

100% but ig for the story, it has to have happened

[edgy tree]

that's more of a Mauga specialty

[past copper]

Play Doomsday sound track Doomfist will return in Overwatch

[weary quarry]

It looked like only Sombra was scared that Doom lost

[hearty citrus]

It’s crazy how vendetta has barely been around for that long and already beaten one of the strongest heroes in lore and took the whole story for herself

[slow wasp]

Still anoyed moira didnt get any lines. As much as I love her VA, shes definitly too expensive to just have on hand 😭

[wooden drift]

I was happy listening a little bit of doomfist and reaper. So, I'm super happy

[wooden drift]

Or she's busy. She isn't really voice actor

[past copper]

Avengers: Doomsday sound track Doomfist will return in Overwatch

[edgy tree]

oh wait I did just notice it Widow and Sombra were looking at eachother after that

[low python]

so is doomfist going to comeback to smoke out vendetta?