lore-discussion

[shrewd pivot]

You... are aware of the situation of the English Pharah VA, right?

Cartoons have recasted VA's for less. So respectfully, I disagree.

But yeah I don't think they'll recast the VA though.

[peak escarp]

yes I'm aware

I'm also aware that it was a while ago, so if they were going to recast they would have done it already

personally, I think cancel culture goes too far

[shrewd pivot]

I don't think it's appropriate to have, especially for an Egyptian-First Nations lesbian character in a T rated game, being voiced by a VA that refused to agknowledge the existence of warcrimes against colonized groups. It's not a "one side" situation... it's a fact that no warcrime, no matter who does it, should be ignored.

I don't want to break any server rules, so I will leave it at that.

[azure flint]

thats deep

[median orchid]

I personally couldn't care less what people think about other subjects. I love her performance as pharah. Just like Doctor said, cancel culture goes a bit too far in most circumstances.

I:E, I can enjoy the works of JK Rowling without caring about her politics or such.

Im not here to debate politics ... But changing Pharas VA would be a bad move.

[peak escarp]

let's not get into this topic

[median orchid]

Yeah this is a lore channel, not the political debate channel.

[shrewd pivot]

Not debating politics, no worries.

As someone who has worked in the media industry and had to quit bc of actually unsafe people, I assure you that giving a extra platform/extra money to specific people does indeed make an impact. Nothing wrong with exploring art without funding it ofc. Like, it's important to read media from the past for example to understand history, to understand how a genre came to be, etc!

To curb this back to lore: It's funny bc like. Overwatch directly handles the topic of cancel culture in how og Overwatch fell (edit: directly with Freja) lol. Not 'canceled' for completely unfounded reasons either, og overwatch did have corruption. Sojourn explores it decently imo. What i like about the new overwatch, is that it seems like an attempt to address the issues og overwatch had. Optumistic future and all that.

[brittle sky]

Reinhardt gets cancelled

[median orchid]

Actually good point. Never noticed that the fall of Overwatch ORG was because of cancel culture.

[ Insert The More You Know GIf ]

[shrewd pivot]

Well, Freja is written as seeing it as cancel culture. Like, unironically.

She thinks the people unfairly punished overwatch/all agents associated with overwatch because of a few bad apples more or less.

[brittle sky]

One quick note and a less quick note:

In terms of LGBT rep, a popular interpretation of Iggy, Lizzy, and Lady (the punk omnics from Londong Calling) is to read them as something that might be called LGBTQ, namely that they were more genderless or even vaguely masc (in the way of zenyatta or mondatta) models that chose to identity, present, and even modify themselves to be more feminine. Not confirmed, but in line with their arcs of embracing individual expression and self-modification.

As for Echo and Orisa, it's a fine line because if they were simply sapient they would demean Ram's whole arc (you stupid idiot, we could make more omnics all the time! A ten year old did it!) not to mention Aurora's whole deal. On the flip side, I think pointing to playable characters - characters that think, express, feel, are effectively, and declaring them nonsapient is both narratively uninteresting and kind of leads to sketchy territory.

If we start litigating x character as 'nonsapient', that is, 'not really, actually aware', it gets messy how we regard them as characters. If Orisa and Echo aren't sapient, how do we not count Bastion because his cognition was a warbot seems different? Do we start considering whether Hammond is sapient or just highly intelligent but still dominated by animal impulses? Are we litigating Winston's immortal soul?

It's all fiction, none of them are real, but within the fictional world I think it's a dangerous state of mind to look at something that thinks and feels and acts remarkably like humans do and go 'nah, not aware' when by all purposes they are self-aware. Echo and Orisa can think of themselves as themselves, and think about the world and situation around them with themselves in mind. These aren't chatbots simulating the next word you wanna hear, and using narratives to practice the ability to go 'that's not conscious' to something that is functionally identical to conscious feels like a bad muscle to flex.

Oop, responding to this.

[brittle sky]

Like, Echo is naive about the world, still forming her personality, and largely navigates life by imitating people around her. Congratulations, we just described every human child. Orisa refers to protocols and programming, but she's clearly forming opinions on her experiences, choosing what parts of her behavior to engage in. That sure walk and talks like a mind to me.

At a certain point if we narrow what functions of a mind qualify you as sapient becomes an impossible metric, because not all human minds work the same. One of the great narrative ironies is that for all the wariness around omnics as this great other, at least civilian model omnics are psychologically 100% indistinguishable from humans in how they think, conceive, and live (there is doubtlessly differences in sensory perceptions, and we know they can approach calculation different, but by benefit of being written by humans with human qualities, the likes of Zen and Ram and Iggy and Susie have nothing making their personhood or mind actually different in its function from humanity (it being digital can be treated differently - subjugated, hacked - and appear to manifest some kind of energy expression with the shambali stuff, but that gets to physical housing and structure of the brain, not the structure of the mind)

[shrewd pivot]

These are very good points!

But it actually IS important for Echo to be non-sapient ai because of lore context. In a text story with Mina and Echo, it confirms Mina created Echo after Aurora as an Ai project that skirted the current laws of ai. Mina couldn't make any more attempts at sapient ai because if laws made after Aurora and the omnic crisis, but she COULD make a self learning ai. There were laws barring what kind of ai could be made, and Echo had all the safety measures to follow the laws "technically"

I personally see Echo as having the ability to developing into a different kind of intelligence, sentience, and eventually sapience. Something completely foriegn to human experience OR awakened omnic existence. But still important and worthy of respect all the same!

All awakened omnics are confirmed to be "alive" sapient like humans are. So if Bastion is an awakened omnic, he is confirmed sapient.

Athena ai is not sapient iirc (Jarvis style), and neither is Orisa (baymax style). I don't think it's a bad thing to have non sapient ai robot characters because it explores that scifi wonder what being alive actually means! It creates awesome discussions just like these! Echo especially, she's so human but technically an advanced piece of technology that carries the "echo" of Mina's life long goals, as well as all the experiences Echo has and continues to gain.

I personally just wish we had atleast one effeminate awakened omnic on the Roster.

[brittle sky]

I mean, if we're saying Echo is perpindicular to the matter of sapience, what essential internalities are we saying Orisa is missing?

[shrewd pivot]

In Orisa and Efi's long novel, Orisa simply has a personality core. Awakened omnics loose aurora's awakening sapience when destroyed, and Orisa was created from the corpse of a refurbished OR14 model. It's the shell but not the 'brains' tech that could house sapience.

[brittle sky]

Wasn't my question. What experience of thought and mind is missing from Orisa?

[shrewd pivot]

Aurora's awakening / tech that holds Aurora's awakening. Orisa doesn't have that iirc, it's just the chassis of an OR14 with new 'brains' tech (not awakened) placed inside

[brittle sky]

Not what origin point. What capacity is Orisa's mind and personality lacking.

[shrewd pivot]

Ohhhhh okok

irl things like organic memory formation, etc, requires quantum mechanics. Irl, sapience requires quantum mechanics. Thus why Aurora was a quantum mechanics "miracle" made Aurora the first sapient ai/robot.

[peak escarp]

the OR15s were built after the crisis - Orisa's chassis wouldn't have the spark of Awakening anyway

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah that's true!

[peak escarp]

the OR15s were the successors to the OR14 models that were created before the crisis, but it's unknown if any of them were Awakened (or if they were like Bastion units and couldn't be Awakened)

our Bastion is a unique individual who recieved the Awakening despite both being deactivated at the time and supposedly lacking the correct components

which is why Torbjorn took an interest in him

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah

[peak escarp]

I'd really like to see where that goes

maybe it will lead to a new generation of omnics

[shrewd pivot]

Like, chatgpt is not sapient. Orisa is like an LLM model.

[brittle sky]

I mean, I think it's very possible warbots could awaken in some way, it was just messier or didn't result in as immediately recognizably human minds (like with our Bastion). Or maybe our Bastion is a special special boy.

[shrewd pivot]

It's not that ai can't be sapient, it's that aurora's awakening is the only confirmed ai sapience in overwatch.

[brittle sky]

Okay, but Orisa isn't a chatbot. A chatbot is an algorithm determined to calculate the next word you want to see written.

[peak escarp]

the text says that warbots made before the crisis lacked the components, and any robots/drones made by Anubis after the Awakening were also made without the components, just in case

[brittle sky]

It's pure prompt response. The whole point of the personality core is Orisa is not merely saying what you want to here, or responding by an elaborate phone tree, but is calculating, understanding, and learning.

[brittle sky]

That's from the in-world book though, yes?

[peak escarp]

yes

[shrewd pivot]

Well, atleast in canon, Orisa isn't sapient like Aurora is tho, that's for sure.

I would be horrified if non-awakened omnics were actually sapient in some way, humanity would be enslaving non-awakened omnics then.

[brittle sky]

So it could represent an in-world misinterpretation of warbots. It's written as a subjective and potentially (unintentionally) unreliable source

[peak escarp]

possibly

[brittle sky]

Much in the same way that its analysis and accounting of the god ais probably isn't the whole story, even if the facts its recounts are individually true.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it's actually very possible that the only reason Bastion survived is bc he wasn't surrounded by triggers like the other Bastion units were. If Bastion was booted up in a war zone I think he would have defaulted to anubis coding bc of the triggers like gunshots etc

[peak escarp]

I think it's better for the story if Bastion is special

[wind hornet]

I just wanna comment and say it’s so funny that the main chat is blowing up currently, and you guys are just in here having a calm genuine discussion. It’s nice lol

[round bramble]

Why do they treat Omnics at humans? Are they psychotic?

[brittle sky]

I think the more interesting option is if rather than Bastion just being a mutant, warbots got a kind of awakening, but had enough behavioral irregularities that humans struggled to recognize it. Recognition of other kinds of personhood is definitely something of a theme in overwath, and I think having to grapple with a whole swath of sapience humans failed to recognize would be an interesting narrative, and leads to interesting questions about things like the gwishin or the cyberians.

[shrewd pivot]

Awakened omnics atleast, are definitely just as alive as humans are. So imagine if a human mind was put into a robot body, and that's... kind if what an awakened omnic is! Awakemed omnics are alive, not just machines.

[round bramble]

Nah, they're just programmed to act alive

[brittle sky]

C'mon bud, don't eat the onion from the bit machine.

[round bramble]

I can excuse magic dragon powers and time travel

But not sentient robots

[digital gale]

ACTUALLY!

[shrewd pivot]

🥀 the only reason I don't want this to be the case (your theory is entirely possible), is because that would be so so so tragic for Bastion to be a survivor out of pure luck and have to live with that horror omg,,, Ganymede you mean the world to me ty for saving Bastion lol

(Can you tell "The Last Bastion" is a fav cinematic of mine lol)

[brittle sky]

Also makes the 'sweet idina' line more than a throwaway - because there's a world where OR14s as warbots got a kind of awareness but were too rigid in mental structures to express that or reject commands, OR15s refurbished from the same core so had the same buried spark, and by giving Orisa the personality core and other upgrades Efi effectively gave Orisa the means to translate that awakening into something that could be expressed as human-like communication and behavior. Moira isn't just referencing Orisa's predecessors, she would be tagging the through line of the spark of self that finally got expressed fully in Orisa. Massive overread? With 99% certainty. But I like to find the interesting interpretations when I can.

[peak escarp]

be careful feeding the trolls, we don't want them to stay

I'm off to bed

[shrewd pivot]

☝️ genetic marker initiated ornamental energy weapons, and chronal disassociation (we love scifi superhero camp here)

[round bramble]

What

[shrewd pivot]

The shimada dragons are canonically energy weapons (think like Symmetra's tech kind of) not magic

[round bramble]

That's manky

[shrewd pivot]

It's fun!

[brittle sky]

Oooh, adding fuel to the throughline of awakening - "Originally put into service before the Omnic Crisis, the OR14 "Idina" line of security robots was built in Nigeria's massive manufacturing omnium. After the war, they were taken out of production, along with many of the other models used during the Crisis. Twenty years later, Numbani revived and recommissioned the OR14 program to protect the city from external threats." - Language used makes it seem like OR15s could be working from the same core parts, including whatever pieces of processing the OR14s might have held the spark.

[shrewd pivot]

Ehhh Moira doesn't do robotics but perhaps a narrative foreshadowing if you want to say that.

I personally think the "no magic, just tech" rule means no souls exists bc Reaper souls + Mercy rez was confirmed by devs to not be canon and just be game mechanics

[brittle sky]

And as we see with our Bastion, warbots can experience periods of dormancy without necessarily losing the spark.

Not regarding spark as a metaphysical construct, just a simple term for whatever cognition the awakening provided.

[shrewd pivot]

Bastion was in standby/stasis, not damaged. I feel like Aurora's gifted awakening is a fragile thing, so if an omnic ceases functions completely it probably loses the awakening. Any new omnics created (like all new parts new) do not have the awakening

[brittle sky]

But none of the language either with the OR14s or OR15s speak to full destruction. Like we know omnics can take a hit without losing the awakening, and omnics can upgrade their chassis without harming the spark.

Like, Omnics would not be part of the Phreakz if altering themselves would kill them.

[shrewd pivot]

I would look to the long novel that has Efi explain in detail parts of Orisa's creation. To me atleast, it didn't seem like Orisa had the awakening.

[brittle sky]

On the specific point of Moira not being a roboticis - it's def not her main area of study, but she does have an interest in zen. And we have:
"Sombra: You stopping in to see Max? I love how you make him squirm.
Moira: Mm, it's amusing. I don't even experiment on Omnics.
Sombra: ...yet?
Moira: laughs Yet."

[shrewd pivot]

Omnics can completely alter thier bodies, it's the "brain"(specific components, not even all of the brain) that is the delicate part.

[median orchid]

Yeah I wonder how much Ram ramattra has

(Wasnt that a sombra Interaction?)

[brittle sky]

And what if Orisa's brain (the part that formed core programming) was intact from OR14 to OR15 to Orisa? After all personality core is not necessarily the sum of her mind, could be just like bolting a prefrontal cortex onto the extant Idina brain.

[shrewd pivot]

I really wish I could emoji reply to messages in this chat lol.

Yeah it was a sombra line.

[median orchid]

yeah

[brittle sky]

Wasn't the sombra line her doing a RAM joke?

oh wait

[median orchid]

Ok ... So what I looked at, a avarage person has 2,5 petabytes of random access memory (RAM) Not like RAM sticks but brain stuff

[brittle sky]

I misread

you said exactly that

[median orchid]

So each omnic has like millions and millions of Ram each to match human inteligence / sentience?

[shrewd pivot]

Don't quote me on this, but I don't think orisa has any of that brain. iirc, it's legit just the shell body, not the brains of the OR14 that was used.

[brittle sky]

My partner owns and has read that book. I can ask her later

[shrewd pivot]

IF Orisa actually does have sapience tho, it's incredibly messed up how Efi tweaks Orisa's personality core... it's a whole plot point of Efi tweaking and testing and tweaking again, but can't get it right, then Orisa shuts down for a bit iirc?

[brittle sky]

What's a bit of narcolepsy among friends

[shrewd pivot]

What's a bit of lobotomy more like it. Though, I suppose Torbjörn WAS able to remove the anubis coding from Bastion, so who knows lol

[brittle sky]

Nah, lobotomy is permanent damage.

[shrewd pivot]

Something like that. A quantum computer with a neural connection set up (<Aurora ig would have something like that) would look very different from your conventionally pc tho lol.

[shrewd pivot]

It's some big personality core tweaks Orisa goes through, regardless. The novel reads kinda "spy kids" esque so I feel like a lighthearted baymax approach was what they were going for.

Also, it would be incredibly weird for a near 11 year old kid to be in charge of an adult level sapient mind like that. I prefer Orisa (atleast initially) being non sapient bc Orisa represents Efi's hopes and dreams, like a walking imaginary friend.

That said, I do suppose that even if omnics awoke with "basically adult minds", it would take them a bit to catch up to actually being adults. Ig omnics are awoken to a mind comparable to an adult human with amnesia?

[brittle sky]

Hey, spy kids vibes isn't exactly antithetical to extremely messed implications

[shrewd pivot]

True that lol

[brittle sky]

I mean, coming out of a warbot you can still get iron giant vibes of 'learning how to person from a kid'

[shrewd pivot]

For sure. I just think like. A kid can care for a puppy, a raven even. Not a random amnesiac 30 year old lol. And omnics are basically that.

[brittle sky]

Sure, but warbot cognition seems at least somewhat different from humans and civvie omnics, so the analogue may be different

(also, a plotline where the phreaks recognize orisa as an idina derived model and kidnap her to go digging in the deep recesses of Orisa's mind for old war memories sounds very metal, because phreaks are the exact kind of punks to decide that orisa's personality core and time learning from efi warrants brainwashing without digging up the oldest, most traumatic memories of the model)

also, notably if not super relevant, omnics do remember pre-awakening (that's part of why the crisis haunts them), in a fuzzy dreamlike state, per a zen voiceline.

[shrewd pivot]

Hm. True. But that all depends on if Orisa even has that OR14 brain still.

Honestly I think with current lore set up, i prefer Orisa as a baymax simply bc it fits Efi's childlike hope. It's playful and fun and Efi loves Orisa just as much as if Orisa was sapient anyhow, so if it ends up that Orisa IS sapient later on, no harm done.

[median orchid]

💀

bro

where is !!shitposting when we need it?

[torn shale]

this is part of ow lore

[median orchid]

Woah

[wise grotto]

I mean the reason bastions kinda weird is the model he is doesn’t exist anymore and he didn’t. Wake up until long after the anubi program was locked up tight

[edgy tree]

I feel like artificial sentience is a biiiiiit more believable than magic spirit foxes building things out of thin air or magic flying dragons that can actually kill someone

[peak escarp]

the dragons aren't magic

supposedly the fox isn't either, but they haven't explained it so I'm not convinced

[lost wedge]

I think Doomfist's death is going to be a fake-out, most likely, if the leaks are true.

[merry mason]

Oh yeah 100%

[lost wedge]

That would be some fire lore.

Vendetta takes over Talon, then Doomfist comes back to get his getback.

[merry mason]

Wouldn’t make him less of a bum

[lost wedge]

True

[merry mason]

I thought of him coming back to reclaim the throne but like the only outcomes are: he comes back and stays and vendetta becomes just a blip on the timeline so what was the point,
He loses again and he graduates from bum to megabum,
Doom and Ven keep getting back at each other like spy vs spy but that would be goofy

Maybe he’ll just make talon 2

[lost wedge]

Yeah I think the best bet is doom making another Talon and vendetta makes a new name for her reign specifically

[lyric chasm]

I stand by Zenyatta's words of "magic (being) science we don't yet understand". That's my cope.

[lyric chasm]

Maybe he got into the Conspiracy

[brittle sky]

It does put the existance of the two characters in mutually exclusive territory if they both just wanna be in talon.

Granted, Vendetta defines talon as 'my personal empire i have exclusive rule of', which is just a less interesting org than 'a council of different evil people pursuing different evil ends', so like... i hope her reign isn't a permanent intistution of the story? Because like all she's offering is a strong but schemey person who directs Talon, and we already had that de facto in Doomfist, I don't think a more formalized or inflexible structure really adds much to the story.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I agree. My one hope is that since she views her father's actions as doomed, and she seems like she wants to lead Talon "differently" in some way, that means she will actually reorganize Talon in some complex compelling way that ultimately leads to Talon breaking into pieces that Doomfist can come back to scoop up.

The mafia is a racketeering gang, that keeps control by threatening locals into submission and bribing officials to look the other way, all so the gang can profit. If Vendetta really is mafia, she might try to make Talon less of a "funding excellence" group like Doomfist has it, and more like a well oiled machine that will have Vendetta as a Ceasar-like figure, tyrant dictator with massive wealth and control over an empire.

And just like the Roman Empire, once it becomes too big, it will collapse into pieces that villains fight to get the scraps of.

Doomfist keeping Talon with an obvious hierarchy of Akande at top bc he won his place, but ultimately "loosely" connected actually makes it so Talon as a "causing chaos to make humanity to evolve" force will survive long term. If Talon was a well oiled machine villain empire, it's easy for Overwatch to trace who and what are involved with Talon, easy to prosecute and jail away. Talon isn't exactly easy to full pin down, villains involved could still get away.

[brittle sky]

Yeah, Talon as a more conventional syndicate, much less some kind of underworld state... like what are we gaining out of that? Peopel tout that a Vendetta led Talon is more likely to just kick in Overwatch's door and... what do we do with that? Gives us an excuse to get around to killing of Rein, but after that what?

[spare fox]

that's true, it's similar to how DF is just... a blah leader for Talon

I hope we do get a better idea of what a Vendetta-lead Talon will be

because yeah, OW is going to fight Talon but they're much more of an underground org than that

they more pull strings and line their pockets

[sturdy heron]

What’s cassidy’s story

[spare fox]

Honestly, I don't think they're going to go that deep with Talon's motivations

I think they're probably going to keep it on like shonen-anime/saturday morning cartoon level rather than going super crazy with deep dark motivations

[brittle sky]

I mean, they don't have to get grim dark, but having motives other than 'be a menace' make for more interesting behavior.

[brittle sky]

Grew up as an outsider in american southwest, joined a biker/outlaw gang called the Deadlock Gang (one of the founders along with Ashe), got busted by overwatch (reyes specifically, I think?), recruited into blackwatch as a sort of plea deal, did some work for that (he's characterized as the most moral of blackwatch, which was otherwise black ops/espionage/hit squad). After ow fell apart he kind of served as a bounty hunter/drifter. When ow started reforming at the start of 2 he (following Ana's advise) recruited a new wave (Baptiste, Zarya, D.Va, Pharah) to join neo OW, seems to be something of a senior role thanks to her experience even as he insists he's not sticking around for the main org?

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah nothing too grimdark, but I'm expecting a little sauce to the way Vendetta will reorganize Talon, because imo the eye conspiracy being core to Soldier76's story (and the conspiracy being tied to the downfall of og overwatch) paints a picture of some kind of big reveal that's a bit more serious than a lighthearted Saturday cartoon story. So, because the conspiracy will probably be kind of serious, i wouldn't be suprised if Vendetta gets a little bit of "the godfather" cinema treatment in how it's serious-dramatic, but nothing hardcore bleak for sure i agree.

[brittle sky]

I mean, OW's basic story is a saturday morning cartoon that collided with reality

[spare fox]

Yeah I meant in terms of what Talon's motivations are under Vendetta

It's going to be along the lines of selling illegal weapons and making vishkar rich and stuff

[livid tangle]

No way vendetta has canonically killed doom in the lore

[kind ore]

Judging by the recent events in Overwatch, I wonder if Blizzard is reading my mind

[peak escarp]

not yet

[kind ore]

I had been writing a spec screenplay for an Overwatch miniseries involving Talon's collapse and downfall and a new faction rising to take their place.
I started hashing this out before Vendetta was inteoduced

[peak escarp]

and also probably not - it's more likely to be a fakeout

[sturdy heron]

Thx

[spare fox]

I'm predicting it's going to pan out that everyone - including the audience - believes that DF is dead, then later down the line we'll get some hints that he's still around somewhere, getting stronger, making more allies

idk or he'll escape to space

we still have no idea what he was doing up there

[gaunt frost]

I'd be very surprised to find out Vendetta beat doomfist, not that she's not strong, but Doom is like top three most powerful characters in the setting so that would be a bit jarring

[peak escarp]

he'll probably underestimate her

[rare trail]

top 3 lowk overrating him

[gaunt frost]

That does not seem like something he'd do, strength is what makes somebody respectable in his eyes, and being a gladiator would definitely grant her at least enough respect to be worth a good fight

[rare trail]

winston and orisa have both beaten doom before

i remember having a solid top five but i forget what they were

[gaunt frost]

Outside of those 2 who else would you say?

[rare trail]

mighta just been orisa winston mauga reaper doom for top five

not necessarily in that order

sig sym and weaver also but like they aint done nothing in lore yet

top 3 reasonable for doom actually yeah

orisa and winston beat him & mauga tied and reaper is like idk

[gaunt frost]

Not to say it isn't true, I'm just unaware, what has reaper done to be that high?

[rare trail]

reaper always loses but also like he needs to lose

[rare trail]

he cant die kinda

hes shown to be pretty powerful hes jsut mostly been matched up against like winston and other people who have to win

[gaunt frost]

Yeah true, but like you said he is low-key a jobber

[rare trail]

he couldve smoked out soldier and ana in his comic he just didnt want to

[rare trail]

i mean yeah but thats kinda just plot idk

and like he was fighting winston

[gaunt frost]

Ok, that's something, although aren't those characters both like slightly superhuman at best?

[rare trail]

uhhh

soldier is

ana is just like a good sniper

but hes def enhanced from moira

i forget whos close to reaper

i had a tier list a while ago but i dont remember it now

[gaunt frost]

I know mei got to be in the lowest tier, sis was not made for this fighting shii 😭

[brittle sky]

power scaling is useless, No contest occurs in a vacuum, and contests in narrative are fully subject to the narrative

[young dragon]

76 and Reaper (Soldier 24) were also both part of a government military program to make super soldiers. Gabriel’s DNA was apparently always weird and Moira was partially brought into Overwatch to stabilize his condition.

[wise grotto]

No reaper is more so
He can’t be killed but the dudes got a temper and because of that he doesn’t use his power calmly and fucks up regularly

Just ragebait reaper and he’s fucked

[rare trail]

established power levels are important for stakes

if mercy beat doomfist in a fight it would damage the narrative and break cause and effect

like yeah, if the writer wants mercy to win, she will win, but it would destroy the concept of stakes and make the audience understand that events dont occur in the story in a logical progression, they just happen because the writer wants them to

and yk if anything can happen at any time because the writer wants it to, that makes people lose investment in the story being told

[peak escarp]

I always think it's funny when people accuse the writers of "making it up as they go along"... "making things up" is kinda in the job description

[azure flint]

the 2 is basically confirmed to be removed soon

how will this affect the ow lore

[glad fox]

Has sigma actually met iris or he's just rambling?

[rare trail]

as we understand it the iris isnt a thing you can meet if i recall correctly

[azure flint]

rambling

the iris is basically god

but also not a god js an anomaly

[glad fox]

Zenyatta doesnt argue with him on that for some reason

I guess that's just zen being zen

[peak escarp]

it could mean he met Aurora when she was alive

or it could mean he's seen the anomaly in the Shambali monastery

[peak escarp]

it won't really affect the lore

I've been calling it "Overwatch" this whole time

[brittle sky]

I think how much we read sigma's experience as delusion and how much as his consciousness splices space/time/realities will remain ever unclear

[brittle sky]

Only in so far as to give a sense of what is uphill or not and the vague idea of the 'logic' of power. Quantification of power, much less thinking that will determine what a narrative fight's outcome will be, is a fruitless venture.

[peak escarp]

on paper, just looking at their skills, Reaper should wipe the floor with Winston... yet both times they fought, Winston won easily

that's the power of plot armor

[fierce moon]

so happy about this tbh

[glad fox]

Has he even been there?

[rare trail]

ideally, in something thats well written, established power levels should determine a fight outcome, and if power levels dont line up with how the fight is narratively supposed to go, something should be done to "buff" the character whos supposed to win

[rare trail]

characters needing plot armor is a sign of bad writing

i think that it kinda matches up with reapers character him losing to winston by his arrogance, although hes kinda like cartoonishly so

power scaling for power scalings sake between universes is just like yapping for fun, but understanding power levels within universes is important for stakes

if a weaker character needs to beat a stronger character for the story to work, there should be a reason for their victory other than plot armor

[brittle sky]

What? A crunch of strict power is both narratively boring and also not how real fights work. You can be the most skilled fighter of all time, and circumstances mean it may just not go your way.

[rare trail]

that is my entire point? if someone is a better fighter but they need to narratively lose, set up the circumstances so that makes sense in the story

[ruby ridge]

they CANNOT get rid of doomfist

https://tenor.com/view/puppy-dog-cute-gif-19453917

[rare trail]

like at the end of jedi fallen order, cal needs to escape vader, but that is a very tough task since vader is the chosen one and one of the strongest beings in the star wars canon, so the writer sets it up that cal has backup that help to distract vader, and cal runs away as much as possible from vader, and the entire fight is set in an underwater base so that cal can escape to where vader cant follow

the power scaling between cal and vader is important here, and if they simply fought and cal won, that would have significantly damaged the story and messed with any future events where cal is in danger, because the audience would now understand that he is capable of doing whatever, whenever the plot demands it

[brittle sky]

Power should be a thing the narrative takes into account, the same way all details needed for verisimilitude and causality should be taken into account. But the act of power scaling - grading all characters on a strict curve of 'if they fight who win' and makign that the dominant grade to determine stories is incredibly silly, because outside of like, preassigned duels, final destination no items does not exist in the world. We don't go 'well the american military is 9000 power and the viet cong are a measly 250 power, so the outcome if they fought should be obvious'.

While relative skill or ability can be part of a narrative of a conflict, narratives outside of, idk, the more shonen-pilled of shonen almost never just compare two numbers. Like, going to Star Wars, the final fight between Syril Karn and Cassian Andor the idea of who is a better fighty guy or is stronger is entirely irrelevant to their fight. Its about their contexts, goals, what their clash says about the dynamic between them and what that means for their respective narrative arcs. And because they're both humans who may have skills or experience in combat but are still humans who say, go down if you hit them with a rock right, the conflict is much less about 'who is the stronger' and more about 'what's going on with these people'.

So yes, relative power can pose a challenge or wrinkle in a conflict, but only when that would be preeminently relevant. DBZ style 'who's the strongest' narratives are some of the most static ideas of narrative generally and conflict specifically.

[half robin]

what would ventures neopronouns be? would it be xe/xem? or xe/xir?

[gaunt frost]

Winston beat Doom in a fight, who's consistently one of the most threatening characters in the setting, and also he almost lost to reaper in one of the fights

[gaunt frost]

I don't think anybody's going on something as strict as a character who slightly stronger than another should win the fight 100% of the time, but if Ana won a fight against mauga, I'd need some damn good reasoning as for why

[brittle sky]

At what, arm wrestling? Just tranq the man, his doubled circulatory system means the drugs hit twice as fast.

[gaunt frost]

Would the tranq even pierce him? Bullets seem to just bounce off his skin

[gaunt frost]

Why would it not just be they/them?

[half robin]

idkk im just asking ;-; she could have neopronouns ;-; ;-;

[brittle sky]

honest slip, or proper trolling now?

[half robin]

honest slip, that my bad 😔

[azure flint]

trolling btw

[edgy tree]

It's not like Winston ever called the new group "Overwatch 2" so not really

I'm honestly fine with them coming back to just Overwatch since Ow2 was only meant to exist for the pve mode

[keen summit]

zen is known for being strictly neutral

hes the type to go when someone said "I HUGGED GOD" "amazing, did he hug you back?"

[final salmon]

It would mean that they are processed twice as fast actually since his blood filtration is faster.

So they would wear off faster.

[lyric chasm]

it's a consequence of them putting focus on the lore again, it gets rid of the unecessary division

[lyric chasm]

it's like religious faith irl, some think they've heard it some don't, it's a very subjective thing

but I guess I believe he did, it's just that his mental state gives the people in OW an unreliable perspective

[gaunt frost]

Even when people say crazy off the wall, or straight up rude stuff he just responds in the most enlightened way

[gaunt frost]

But isn't the iris an omnic specific thing, or was that just my understanding of it?

[lyric chasm]

I don't think we know, there's people doing the Shambali pilgrimage despite being humans iirc

[gaunt frost]

Oh, okay that is interesting

[lyric chasm]

And if you want to make conjecture about it, radiowaves aren't something only omnics can hear, who knows if it didn't affect humans too

some of them at least

that's headcanon territory though

if anubis or aurora had had an influence on humans we'd have known

[gaunt frost]

I don't know how I didn't think of it until now, but you mentioning both of them in the same sentence makes me realize they're kind of equal and opposite forces for omnic sentience

[lyric chasm]

definitely

which also probably means they're at risk of it happening again

unless said otherwise

[gaunt frost]

They even alliterate with one another, it's pretty in your face now that I've realized it

[lyric chasm]

I'm almost certain that Soldier's most recent short story (with Illari) mentions his ex partner making research on rocks that isolate against radiowaves

[pastel stirrup]

if anyone says this what they mean is prolly that the new stuff sometimes doesn't take existing lore or pre-established rules of the setting into consideration

[edgy tree]

ekhm kiriko ekhm spirit energy that definitly isn't just a way to justify magic

[brittle sky]

Imagine if they were just going strictly from a single document written in like 2014, and any deviation was seen as a betrayal.

[glad fox]

Do all shambali monks have balls or zenyatta is unique in that sense?

I haven't seen others depicted with them

[peak escarp]

the orbs are a meditation tool

Zenyatta gives one to Symmetra to meditate on in Stone by Stone

[shrewd pivot]

On the topic of power scaling:

Only focusing on raw power or even strategic skill is fundamentally missing the point when it comes to a story like overwatch being an "optumistic future"

Writing should still MAKE SENSE, ie Human Emily shouldn't be able to randomly hold up an entire mountain to save Tracer lol. But the idea that "a powerful character couldn't be defeated" yet due to a situation the writing creates isn't out if the question either. Sigma could easily 1 shot Doomfist. Does that mean Sigma will in canon? Probably not.

Reaper can theoretically beat most heroes bc of his superpowers, but because of the narrative Reaper didn't beat Winston for example.

Still, it would be interesting to see a tier list of powerscaling "potential" in that it's not indicative that the hero WILL beat another, but that the powers are more op. Like, Sigma is more powerful than Soldier76 for powerscaling "potential" but Soldier76 in canon could be able to beat/capture Sigma simply for the fact Sigma is mentally so out of it/distracted.

[shrewd pivot]

That's more so a critique of Overwatch not setting up well defined longterm plot points (ie Kiriko lore not making chronological sense, it feels like "they just made up things along the way" without taking into account implications or the big picture) rather than it being a critique of creating fiction as "making up ideas" lol

Same with having Sojourn's age having to be changed to be older to fot lore, it feels like they didn't take lore into account (just "made things up along the way without context/consideration")

It's out in the open that overwatch 1 writers were more loose with writing, and imo, as with any long term franchise, that's not really a good method of creating polished story telling. Atleast having a well defined begining, middle arcs, and end goal is necessary to create a satisfying story. Otherwise you get shallow imitations of hype and foreshadowing of "more to come, stay tuned!" Without any real payoff.

For example, the ilios plotline of Talon stealing greek statues since ow1 lingering for years only for Venture to have trailers averting that anubis artifact and then... it never gets mentioned again???? What does the anubis artifact even do? Why was it in GREECE in ruins? There are ways to push the story forward without creating anticlimactic answers/threadlines that get unceremoniously shoved aside. Like, The fact Junkrat’s treasure ends up being simply a flying ship confirmed unceremoniously in a short story???? Super anticlimactic, and unsatisfying to have that as the answer after all that intrigue/hype was built around Junkrat’s "mysterious" treasure over the YEARS.

[pale valve]

How is Vendetta so strong?

Like, she's casually cutting behemoth level robots in half with her sword and having no issues

[shrewd pivot]

I have no idea. It is not hinted at nor confirmed in canon that she is augmented like Maiga nor mutated like Soldier76. Yet she somehow tanked a giant robot arm hitting her bare skin torso with no broken spine????

[pale valve]

Exactly lol, there is no way a regular human is surviving that without some kind of lasting injury regardless of how much they train

[shrewd pivot]

If she had spinal armor, then it could be explained away. But there isn't any.

It breaks lore if she is a nonaugmented normal human tanking robot hits like that.

Like. I would better believe Zarya could tank a hit like that, than Vendetta lol

[pale valve]

Seriously, Zarya is known as the strongest woman on earth and yet Vendetta's feats really look better

Maybe that's bc blizzard hates Zarya though

[shrewd pivot]

JunkerQueen, as all the junkers are, are heavily implied to be irradiated/mutated humans, which can canonly explains the super strength they all have.

Again, Soldier76 was in a genetic super soldiers program, Winston is a genetically modified gorilla, so genetic mutation from radiation is fully on the table to explain how JunkerQueen could tank a hit.

Not Vendetta tho. No indication of augmented organs like Mauga, no mention or visuals of prosthesis like Doomfist, no Armor like Mercy or Pharah, nor any mutation mentioned like Soldier76 or JunkerQueen.

[pale valve]

I don't get why this can casually be such an oversight either, they already established the power scaling of the characters, and had explanations for literally every single character before Vendetta, and now she's supposed to be beating doomfist? Cmon

[shrewd pivot]

If Vendetta truely is skilled in combat, strategy can beat power. Same goes for Doomfist, with strategy he can beat power.

It's not inherently out of character for Vendetta to beat Doomfist in a fight, but Vendetta ought to atleast showcase strategic skill to out maneuver HIS power and skill when she fights Doomfist. It better not be a lazy one shot from Vendetta that beats Doomfist, bc that's just giving plot armor to Vendetta and not allowing her character to shine. Doomfist has been beaten by Winston, and had a tie with Mauga without weapons. Doomfist isn't unbeatable, but in every fight Vendetta is personally in, she wins.

Vendetta has no indication she is an augmented human in canon. We have yet to see Vendetta get brutally beaten in a fight(not even a bruise from that robot hit), only her brutally beating others. She's supposed to be this amazing strategy gladiator fighter, but we haven't seen much skill depicted without plot armor (no idea how she tanks a hit to bare skin for example, that's plot armor).

Please blizzard, show us her strategy against an opponent that can actually beat her without plot armor bs.

[pale valve]

Doomfist has been show to have one of the highest battle iqs in the verse, Vendetta has pretty much just shown brute force

That's not to say she doesn't have high battle iq, they just haven't really shown her having as much yet

Also why is Illari just completely absent from the lore

She's been said to be one of the strongest characters there is and yet we get literally nothing

[shrewd pivot]

She was recently depicted in a story with Soldier76 and Sombra, hinting the eye conspiracy might have something to do with Illari's accident.

[shrewd pivot]

It's bc she’s currently low profile, chasing down the group/people responsible for her accident. It seems to have been a set up.

Ana similarly was "out of lore" and Soldier76 as a vigilante was too

[pale valve]

I guess that aligns with her interaction with Sombra in the game where she asks for more information and Sombra tells her she should chill (she does not)

[pale valve]

Oh that wasn't just a bad accident? That's crazy work, those people are dead asl when Illari finds them

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah that's my issue. If she has great strategic skill, why did the writers not showcase it more? That kind of thought process during fights is super engaging to see!

[pale valve]

I agree, her story vid with Maximilian also shows that she's a bit unstable

[shrewd pivot]

It's hinted that bc Oasis has something to do with the eye conspiracy, and bc Oasis is involved in Runasapi map (genetics sector on runasapi map, studying info on inti technology that Sombra helped Illari "delete"), there might be a connection. Eye conspiracy was already confirmed to be related to the ow HQ explosion that had Jack Morrison and Gabriel Reyes presumed dead.

[pale valve]

Doom is calm and collected so I feel like he genuinely has every edge he can in a 1v1 against her (besides power I guess? It's so unclear)

[shrewd pivot]

My guess is that Vendetta will use the element of suprise and her raw power (the sword ult is raw power) to sever Doomfist's gauntlet off him, then fight Doomfist when he is disarmed. (The arm that has the gauntlet is fully prosthetic, severing that arm will not kill doomfist)

I just feel like a cheap suprise one-shot with no suspense or strategy build up, would do a disservice to Vendetta bc we haven't gotten to see any of her "quick thinking in combat" like her comics imply she has.

But even her adverts portrayed her as "suddenly disappearing" ppl

And the interaction with Maximilien was a cheap shot "element of suprise" that caught Maximilien in a vulnerable position

Damn I just realized.

JunkerQueen could actually probably fight doomfist bc of her magnetic gauntlet that would render the doomfist ineffective ir atleast less effective.

....why is it Vendetta doing all this usurping, and not JunkerQueen who just got access to a flying machine? Lol

[pale valve]

Well we did see that Doomfist takes time to adapt in his fight against tracer and genji, so getting caught off guard in any capacity might be bad for him

If she manages to get some good hits in early, it'll be a lot harder for him to get better throughout the fight

[shrewd pivot]

Tbf even with prior knowledge, genji and tracer were entirely new enemies with unusual powers, I think Doomfist did an incredible job fighting all considering.

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed, Akande missing his arm and doomfist would be at a great disadvantage against a highly mobile Vendetta with that raw power sword. Doomfist would not only be weaponless, but completely off balance for any acrobatics if not incapable bc the doomfist might be the reason he can jump so far to begin with.

[pale valve]

But we saw that he can be overpowered by brute force (primal rage Winston)

So it's hard to say

[pale valve]

We do know that he managed to tie in a hand to hand fight against mauga so I can see him still putting up a good fight

[shrewd pivot]

That's no weapons tho, and Akande without a weapon vs Mauga with weapons would probably mean Mauga wins.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, maybe Vendetta represents that kind of "raw power rage" once again

Akande without his arm, without the doomfist, completely caught off guard,

Against vendetta with her sword and jump jet acrobatics

If Vendetta starts with a cheap suprise shot to disarm doomfist, it's very much possible for Akande to lose to Vendetta without it being ooc.

But if Vendetta announces herself dramatically first for a revenge monolog, reveals her location, even if doomfist is caught off guard, it would be much harder for Vendetta to win without the element of suprise to ensure a disarming of Akande. That would require convincing fight choreography that shows Vendetta has great on the spot fighting skill to out maneuver Akande. If instead it's a big announcement from Vendetta and then a simple one shot on Akande, it will be plot armor bs yet again for Vendetta's writing.

[wise grotto]

Junkerqueen doesn’t have any reason to
She’s already successfully usurped the person she wanted to originally

[rare trail]

vendetta is kinda unreasonably strong for being a regular human with a beefed up weapon

like if we look at other powerful chars like doom winston reaper orisa mauga they have some sort of armor or genetic differences from the average person

i mean vendetta has armor but not complete

idk all characters kinda have the problem of could they tank a gunshot because if they can thats insane and if they cant why not just shoot them

[slow wasp]

I think its just a case of characters being unable to aim half the time

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed. Vendetta having spinal armor/prosthesis would fix most issues lol

[buoyant elk]

https://tenor.com/view/saliba-gabriel-arsenal-arsenal-saliba-football-gif-3107691553792685689

[shrewd pivot]

Arguably JunkerQueen is a villain all about being anti omnic (killing all omnics), anti backstabber (to her), and ruling with an iron fist.

The junkers feels abandoned by the world, and if the junkers found out Talon funded null sector, I could see reasons for JunkerQueen to want to over take Talon to attack overwatch/the world.

Also, the junkers represent a different kind of chaos, and would invite a discussion on what kind of evils Doomfist's "social Darwinism" evil philosophy welcomes.

Regardless Vendetta and JunkerQueen cover many of the same tropes.

[gritty burrow]

whats the timeline for overwatch

[wise grotto]

She and them haven’t once expressed want to fuck with the test of the world except for Junkrat and hog
Generally the junkers are there own society and they very clearly like that
She’s actively a less horrible ruler then the original leader of the junkers
And nobody ever fucks with Australia anymore the only reason they’re heavy anti omnic is the state of Australia is caused exclusively by the omnic crisis but they aren’t invading anywhere to kill any

They’re chaos is very self contained and for good reason
It’s like having a section of the world run by mad max rules whine everyone else if normal as long as they do t start any wars with others they’re fine
They don’t exactly have the infrastructure to win a real war

[rare trail]

yeah 100%

reading her comic seeing her get smacked by the robot just to be like fine?? really took me out of it

like i understand that shes a very good gladiator and all but like idk

like as of right now i dont think shes stronger than someone like genji for example but shes likely going to beat doomfist

idk power levels are kinda inconsistent in overwatch in genearl

[shrewd pivot]

Fair enough! The junkers do want to be left alone. I was just thinking since JunkerQueen has lead them into missions like searching for Junkrats treasure, she could be a possible reason for Junkers exploring outside the irradiated outback one day. Junkrat and Roadhog have gone on global crime sprees too, but fundamentally the junkers are very isolationist, I agree.

The only thing that should be pointed out is that the junkers are anti omnic to the point of wanting to kill all omnics and it's not just because of the omnic crisis. It would not matter if the omnic was sapient or non-sapient, the junkers would kill any omnics no questions asked. The Junkers are villainous for being anti omnic, there's really no more excuse for them being anti omnic than it is for junkers to kill other junkers. They are madmax and not ethical.

[shrewd pivot]

It's not 'power levels' that are the issue (good strategy can out do raw power), it's the worldbuilding inconsistency.

Soldier76's athleticism in his old age is explained by mutation from the super Soldier program. Mercy and Pharah and even Reinhardt have armor to protect thier human bodies for air maneuvers.

Vendetta has no explanation for why her spine didn't snap in half when the giant robot arm hit her bare torso.

[rare trail]

idk i think a characters "power" can include intellgience and strategy to an extent

like part of doomfists strength is his intellgience and adaptability thats shown off in his origin

[shrewd pivot]

Power scaling can't really help determine who wins a fight if both characters are highly tactical, or if a super tactical character goes up against a raw power character.

[rare trail]

ehh idk

[shrewd pivot]

Again, Sigma could solo the entire roster.

[rare trail]

i wouldnt say that

[shrewd pivot]

But there are many contexts in which Sigma could be captured or beaten despite Sigma being able to litterally gravity crush anyone into pancakes where they stand.

[rare trail]

erm citation needed

[shrewd pivot]

Sigma controls gravity.

[rare trail]

how much twin

hes never done anything past like lifting small stuff in lore

[shrewd pivot]

Enough to actually levitate things

Sigma canonically floats and canonically has gravity powers

[rare trail]

does he canonically float ?

[shrewd pivot]

Yes

[rare trail]

where

[shrewd pivot]

Litterally in his origin short. Gameplay.

[rare trail]

gameplay has no bearing on anything lore related

and im like 95% sure he doesnt in origin but ill rewatch just in case

[shrewd pivot]

He probably(?) canonically has a singularity in his brain, as indicated by scans of his brain.

Sigma is able to control the gravity of the area around him in canon.

[rare trail]

okay in his origin some shots kinda indicate hes floating maybe but its heavily stylized and pretty weak evidence

[rare trail]

guh

[peak escarp]

Sigma's origin story is highly stylized and shouldn't be taken as strict canon

[rare trail]

sure, i can accept that hes able to somewhat control gravity around him, this is shown in code of violence, but full control isnt something thats really been established

[shrewd pivot]

". In their custody, De Kuiper slowly gained control of his powers. Now, gravity moved according to his will, and he was closer than ever to achieving his life's goal. But the same experiment that had opened his mind had also fractured it, and he struggled to keep the pieces together.

De Kuiper continues to develop his powers in hopes of unlocking the secrets of the universe, unaware that Talon is using both him and his research."

https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/heroes/sigma/#subject-sigma

[shrewd pivot]

He is using gravity powers in his origin short, and is depicted as floating even if its abstracted.

The text states he can control gravity/has gravity powers, Regardless.

[rare trail]

i dont really agree that shes depicted as floating

[peak escarp]

yes, but we don't know the extent of his powers

[shrewd pivot]

So it's not canon he uses his gravity powers to float?

[rare trail]

like sure the stretcher falls into the background but it also disappears in a different section of the short

[peak escarp]

can he just levitate things, or can he crush them? what's the most he can lift?

[rare trail]

he might float in code of violence? idr but i dont think so

[shrewd pivot]

If his floating isn't canon, this is implying he is walking around Talon barefoot. I really doubt that lol

[peak escarp]

it's hard to place Sigma at the top of the power scaling tree when we don't know the parameters of his powers

[rare trail]

we havent seen his everyday outfit at talon in lore i dont think

[shrewd pivot]

All it takes is a gravity push in the brain to kill organics or a gravity push on certain parts to short circuit omnics.

My point is that he could easily solo anyone on the roster with gravity powers. But just because he has tremendous power, does not mean he WILL actually win every fight. That's why powerscaling isn't helpful in lore like overwatch, it's worldbuilding that matters.

[rare trail]

idk if its fair to say he has the control to actually do a gravity push inside of something he cant see like that

[peak escarp]

he seems like a pretty timid man, I don't think he would choose to fight at all

he'd probably try to defuse

[rare trail]

the only thing hes done is a relatively simple action of lifting spheres up iirc

[peak escarp]

power scaling arguments often ignore character/personality

[rare trail]

yeah a lot of them assume bloodlusted chars or whatever which is pretty lame

[peak escarp]

I once spent a boring day at work thinking about who would win in a fight between Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne (in a scenario where neither knew the other's secret identity and both were trying to hide their talents)... in the end I couldn't come up with a plausible scenario for them to be fighting in in the first place

[shrewd pivot]

Okay then let's talk reaper.

He can mist and choke someone. He can slip into any area that is not airtight. he can put a shotgun to the dome of anyone if he can get close.

Echo, she can deplicate various weapons with hardlight.

Etc

It's context that matters more, so saying that powerscaling is inconsistent in overwatch isn't correct imo. It's the worldbuilding that has issues, like how can Vendetta survive the robot arm his to bare torso if she's just a regular human? That's not powerscaling issues, that's world building issues.

[rare trail]

powerscaling is a part of worldbuilding

[peak escarp]

abs of steel

[rare trail]

consistent power levels are important for stakes in the story, and i think overwatch lore hasnt been the most consistent in all their stories

[shrewd pivot]

It's called bad writing (plot armor) to have a character illogically survive an otherwise lethal hit within worldbuilding.

If that logic doesn't matter, then there is never any stakes, and Mercy might as well lift entire cars with a pinky atp bc anything can happen.

[rare trail]

yeah

part of scaling a characters power is their durability, and if thats broken it damages the story

[rare trail]

which tbf theres like almost 50 playable characters and dozens of different authors so its hard but like still it kinda damages the narrative

it shouldnt feel like whoever the writer wants to win will win even if that is realistically always the case

[shrewd pivot]

Maybe you could give a character a "stats page" but a simple power level tier list doesn't work. Because junkrat could blow up Zenyatta and win, or Zenyatta could drop kick junkrat and win lmafo.

[rare trail]

junkrat has zenyatta in the bag twin

not even close

[shrewd pivot]

You forget, narratively junkrat is comic relief and thus gets the wile coyote treatment that could allow silly but wise Zen the dub. ☝️ that is truely the plot armor

Also it's canon that Zenyatta beats Genji in sparring. So again, it's context that matters.

[rare trail]

tier lists do oversimplify power levels to an extent, but i think theyre a useful resource for judging broad strokes sometimes

[shrewd pivot]

Ig. I just find general "stats" more useful than any overall powerscaling tierlist.

Sigma, Illari, and Echo imo are on top of like a "potential damage output" tier list. Illari's accident is nothing to scoff at, controlling gravity outdoes Zarya's weapon, and Echo can turn into any hardlight form.

Doesn't mean Sigma, Illari, and Echo WOULD always win against opponents tho.

Which is my main point in all of this lol

[tight bay]

i think reinhardt is really cool

[wise grotto]

Sym having what’s essentially a lowkey greenlanterns ring feels like it should be mentioned

She can create a fully functional army at will

And Lw can create a forest

Lw af minimum (to be considered enough trees to create a forest) must be capable of making THOUSANDS of them

[azure flint]

LET THOSE WHO WORK FOR TALON BEWARE MY POWER

SYMMETRAS LIGHT

[static bay]

Can someone here explain to me, how Vendetta beat doom.

allegedly.

[hushed jetty]

she hasnt

[hushed jetty]

she's in the process of trying to undermine him

[marsh crypt]

“She was the leader of the Deadlock Gang who were only a threat when Cassidy was a member. There is literally a cinematic where Ashe, the entire Deadlock Gang + fucking Bob all jump Cassidy at the same time and Cassidy not only soloed them effortlessly but afterwards he tied all of them to the payload and sent them down the road. Including the remains of Bob, who is now completely dismantled.

Then you can look at in game references. Cassidy says his life was simpler when he was working with them rather than Overwatch. In the Bank vault on Dorado when you spawn in as a defender, you don’t see a bunch of dynamite or whatever Ashe carries around littered all over the place. Instead, it’s full of Hogdrogen canisters.

Ashe also grew up rich as fuck. She had her future handed to her on a silver platter from birth but threw it all away so she can play cops and robbers and be so bad at it that the entire gang she trained + an 8 foot tall Omnic hulk got soloed by one man who used to be her ally and she doesn’t even have enough money from heists to buy a bike.

You can get from the dialogue that Overwatch is actively in pursuit of all kinds of criminals. Talon, Null Sector, Roadhog, but never once do they mention anything about what a threat the Deadlock Gang poses. Moira actually calls Ashe out and says “aggression is no substitute for ability.”

Meanwhile, look at the other 2 heisters in Overwatch. Junkrat and Roadhog, 2 homeless bums from the Australian outback, are so prolific in their craft that they literally scaled the entire world in a global heist spree in just a few days. Kiriko asked JUNKRAT how he pulled off all his heists. Not Ashe. Pharah pressed ROADHOG for stealing all of Helix’s valuable items. Not Ashe.

And lastly, there is an interaction where Junkrat mocks her for having just a single stick of dynamite. Instead of rebutting him or defending herself in anyway she just called for Bob like the fucking Little Prince from Clash Royale”

Damn, someone roasted the fuck out of Ashe on the reddit sub lmao ^

[peak escarp]

they're not wrong

I don't think Ashe is that bad though - Cassidy is just that good

also, Ashe's criminal activity is very regional, and she probably doesn't target Helix property, whereas Junk and Hog do crime internationally and definitely target Helix holdings

[jaunty fossil]

is angela the only one who realises amelies been brainwashed?

[jaunty fossil]

THEYRE DRUGGING HER TOO MY BABYYYY

[hollow spire]

can someone recap everything important that happened after invasion

if not that's ok ill end up just watching the storytimes and whatnot to catch up

[edgy tree]

Ram retreated to the antarctic omnium after nabbing a lot of the Omnic population

Hanzo got a reality check and might start helping their community/join ow

Vendetta is doing her Talon takeover which might lead to Doom being removed as the Leader of it (not die like many ppl are saying)

which Max seems to benefit from as he managed to keep his slot in Talon

Wuyang and his sister join overwatch

[hollow spire]

THANK YOU SO MUCH IM STILL LISTENING BTW AAAAAA THANK YOU

[edgy tree]

Emre which was part of the original overwatch strike group seems to be possesed by the conspiracy in some way and going around destroying communication stations

and Winston is giving away more invites to Overwatch even though Sojourn told him not to do so

and Overwatch seems to not be illegal anymore

[hollow spire]

hooray

[edgy tree]

There's honestly been a lotta stuff goin on recently

can't wait for the Spotlight as the first season of the new year brings in a LOT of changes (hopefully not the season 9 kind though)

[hollow spire]

IM SUPER EXCITED

[hollow spire]

THANK YOU SO MUCH BTW THIS IS SUPER APPRECIATED

[median orchid]

Yeah this is the most hype I've been about Overwatch since first seeing the animations

[brittle sky]

Correction - not part of the original strike team. Early full org recruit ala sojourn

[clever anvil]

so is Doomfist dead?

[brittle sky]

No

And most serious people don't think he will be killed

[clever anvil]

why tho

[peak escarp]

because it's a waste of a character

[clever anvil]

they can still keep him in the game

[peak escarp]

it would be better to make it look like she killed him, but instead he goes underground for a while an resurfaces later to take back Talon

[clever anvil]

maybe doing something like Ramattra from Apex

[peak escarp]

I know they would still keep him in the game

[brittle sky]

Because there's no real reason to? Just disposing him outright just cuts off any narrative potential.

[clever anvil]

ofc

[clever anvil]

would be cool to see someone from the heroes killed

[brittle sky]

Eh, maybe they'll use this arc to kill off rein since they were plot blocked from doing that for the invasion arc like they so clearly wanted.

[clever anvil]

maybe

[peak escarp]

killing an Overwatch agent would certainly make Vendetta more evil

[clever anvil]

yeah fr

would make her a lil more interesting

[brittle sky]

And ow is in a legal gray zone. UN threatened to enforce Petras during the invasion but didn't. Sojourn is trying to parlay their work in the null crisis to gain legitimacy, which is why she didn't want Winston to go around recruiting teenagers.

I think the coup arc feels very new coke even without killing off doom. Saying doom is real dead would just make the insistence of it all the worse.

[hushed matrix]

If the next stadium tank isn’t rammatra I’m sueing overwatch

[marble crag]

while we’re at it my boy needs a mythic skin

[hushed matrix]

If the next stadium tank isn’t rammatra I’m sueing overwatch

[hushed matrix]

He knows ball

[lyric chasm]

eh they just hate her. I understand critcizing a character, but doing it while understanding the character's lore is better. Ashe was ignored by her parents all her life, she built an empire in spite of them and her desire to have loyalty from everyone is just a consequence of her being abandoned as a child. It hurt her even more to lose someone like Cass because it seems like he understood what she needed and was a good friend to her. As for the bike, it's not about getting a bike, it's getting THAT bike. The one they repaired together.

[lyric chasm]

Especially since Doom is an interesting character storytelling wise

it's nice to have different factions with different goals challenging each other

[fossil wren]

I honestly think that if an Overwatch agent were to die, it would probably have to be Reinhardt

[marsh crypt]

Not a good justification imo😂 ignored by parents but rich af cmon now that’s a pretty common story for rich kids

[lyric chasm]

she didn't use her parent's money to build the gang though

but she used the gang's money to bail herself out, ill give you that 😂

I wasn't trying to defend her entirely and say she's not responsible for her actions, but that she's not just a bored person who cosplays misery

she had everything, but at what cost

[lyric chasm]

leave the old man alone 😭

[brittle sky]

I mean, with his death brig would prolly finally get her ow2 model

[brittle sky]

i mean, what does it mean for a character to be 'justified'? Like, do we dislike a character when they're not acting with perfect necessity? Yeah she went off to do crime stuff in response to her parent's neglect, and plenty of neglected kids don't found a gang, but we're not a jury determining her culpability, we're an audience ingesting her story.

[lyric chasm]

especially since she didn't use any of her parents riches to build what she had

i mean sure, she stole them

but it wasn't handed to her

she grew up rich but with little human contact to support her and love her

her parents lied to her and made her believe they'd disinherit her after years of not caring about her, it's not surprising to me that she'd have a reaction like she did

I assume somewhere down the line there must have been discussions between the members about whether the gang should continue existing (like there was in the Deadlock Rebels story) and maybe that was subject of contention between her and Cass and maybe others, and that's what you could blame her for, but that wasn't because she was a rich person cosplaying as someone suffering

[brittle sky]

What blame or judgement are we even rendering here?

[lyric chasm]

I was reacting to this https://discordapp.com/channels/94882524378968064/180471683759472640/1467398210703327314

[peak escarp]

Ashe started the gang in the first place because her parents were disowning her, so she decided to just take her inheritance herself

it's revealed that the disinheritance was just a bluff to get her to wise up, but the damage was already done

-# oh wait you said that I can't read

[lyric chasm]

(is ok)

[brittle sky]

Okay but that does make like 2 characters (both female?) whose motives are 'getting their inheritance the hard way'?

[peak escarp]

still, it was a dick move by her parents and they deserved what they got

[lyric chasm]

definitely

if people want to criticize Ashe, they can just criticize what she's been doing for 20 years lol

although we don't know what it really is

I wish we knew more about the gang

from Cass' days to now

[lyric chasm]

who's the second one?

[peak escarp]

surprised they haven't had an interaction between Ashe and Vendetta about it

[lyric chasm]

aaaah

I keep forgetting about Vendetta

[marsh crypt]

Yeah i’m saying its kinda lame😂

[brittle sky]

But what does lame mean in this context?

[marsh crypt]

Like I don’t think it makes for an interesting character lol

[brittle sky]

Sure, feel what ya like. Honestly Ashe's role seems to be a solid mix of 'lady with a history/grudge at Cass' and 'Unaffiliated Jobber villain', neither of which feel like they need too heavy of pulls.

[lyric chasm]

the recent changes in her interactions with Cass are welcome though

she seems to finally be moving on

it also highlights how maybe Cass wasn't always the best around her at they grew older (idk)

anyways, more lore is welcome too

[brittle sky]

Sure. I'm just saying not all characters have to be tentpole lore pillars.

[wise grotto]

I mean they both kinda sucked I think that’s the point of there stories
Cass improved eventually
Ashe never aimed to so she never really did

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, Ashe fundamentally rejected her role as a pawn in a company that did not love her and treated her like an object. She rejected 'earning conditional love' and embraced the concept of unconditional love/loyalty with the deadlock gang. That's why the deadlock gang is found family, but once you betray the deadlock gang, you're out.

Considering Ashe is a southern belle from a rich estate profiting off of selling weapons, I think it was a pretty good idea to make her reject her parents so severely considering the whole... context there. It would be very messy to portray Ashe's parents as anything other than villainous.

She falls into "a woman scorned" trope and that one female character trope seen in a lot of westerns. Idk what it's called exactly, but idk like.... Tulip from "The preacher" kind of falls into the same vien?

Regardless, Ashe is trying to screw over her family business so she's a villain as an outlaw sure, but it's an interesting exploration of how profit/'public image' over human connection ruins families and creates broken hearts.

(Looks awkwardly over at Wuyang)

Yeah imagine that, rebelling completely against 'earning' conditional love from parents more worried about saving face in front of others than your well being, rejecting the impossible standards. Haha, imagine that, huh.

[edgy tree]

ig I got it wrong since he was part of the overwatch group (he even was in the pic)

[brittle sky]

He was in that early pic but that was golden age overwatch, not the crisis response strike team

[lyric chasm]

I thought he was, I should read Declassified again

[edgy tree]

Yeah I was talking about Golden age ow

[brittle sky]

For sure, just distinguishing because other people were conflating that

[teal wraith]

whats ur guy's least favourite piece of lore?
mines the fact that roadhog actually hates junkrat, not in a "haha i hate him but some part of me cares", no, roadhog hates junkrats guts and would rather ditch him which js broke my heart when i found out

[elfin bane]

what

is that true

[lyric chasm]

I call bs

[pale valve]

me when I lie

I have proof

[teal wraith]

its true

[pale valve]

I just can't send images

[teal wraith]

literally look it up

[teal wraith]

sadly yes

[teal wraith]

google

[lyric chasm]

shitposting isn't allowed here 🙂

[teal wraith]

hows that shitposting?

im js asking which piece of lore u guys dont like and i shared mine

[lyric chasm]

if you can't justify yourself here and bring the sources ill consider it shitposting

[pale valve]

Check your dms

[teal wraith]

ive been proven wrong

my question still stands tho

whats yalls least fav piece of lore

[brittle sky]

What... What was sent?

[lyric chasm]

comic page

that denies what they say

would be nice to have people back up what they say instead of a poor "google it"

[brittle sky]

Gotcha. Yeah, roadhog's misanthropy is there but it's not exactly convincing, particularly compared to his actions. Both broadly and specifically in his alliance with junkrat

[lyric chasm]

that's why I was susrprised

I read most of what I know on the lore about a year ago so its all fuzzy in my head sometimes

but I was like 'maybe I missed something'

but it's pretty obvious Roadhog might act all tough and stuff, he cares about Junkrat and he's a softie at heart

[peak escarp]

wouldn't say he's a softie, but he's not as cold-hearted as people think

[lyric chasm]

yeah, i'm not good at picking words

[wise grotto]

I mean he’s literally offered by junkerqueen a high ranking spot if he ditched the rat
He’s there because he cares and wants to be he’s technically not even kicked out just he’s kicked out IF he’s with Junkrat

[brittle sky]

Friendly rivalry's reduction of junkrat's treasure from something that could change the paradigm of the outback in some meaningful way (something with the omnium, maybe with the omnics themselves) to just keys to a door to a ship, and then jq just immediately claims it. Actively suborns the junker ecology from being one with tensions within it (wasted land clearly sets junkrat and roadhog as protagonists and the queen as antagonist) to just the junker queen is gonna be a menace with an airship and all other junkers are vaguely beneath her. Bonus negative points for implying that junkrat and roadhog might rejoin the fold of junker society.
OR
The existence of the collective as a blemishless alternative of science guys to oasis and the resultant simplification of oasis to a clearly villainous faction. You took the utopian vision of a swana country (one of exceedingly few times ow touched that whole stretch of the world!) that the modern west stereotypes as backwards and insisted no no they only do the bad science stuff. The good science stuff is done by a European philanthropist on a goddamn seastead.

Bonus negative points for it's one role is sheltering lw (which again, oasis' one thing was supporting controversial scientists, don't give us two separate ones for scientists we like and scientists we don't), a character whose role in the plot is belaboring the point that vishkar is bad and being an excessive voice of critique of vishkar the plot didn't need (she's already questioning and drifting from vishkar in stone by stone) in a weird holier than thou way, tipping the scales on the already lopsided "moral dilemma" in sym's arc even further.

[wise grotto]

Isn’t the only actual bad scientist Moira who is one of the higher ups at this point of oasis

Makinf it a European person showing up and fucking everything up more then it possibly could have been

Which is very accurate

[brittle sky]

But rather than show that range (say by having them be the ones who protect lw the good science guy), everyone else is faceless and largely uncharacterized and are defined like being the villain soldier and illari fight in lucky man, doing panopticon contract work in Morocco, or being the crime targets of the phreakz (who we like). They are only being deployed in an antagonistic, complicit, or villainous light, and they made a whole new faction to be the "good" rogue science faction.

[craggy thistle]

Do you guys think the one of this year heroes clould be the jetpack cat? I think it will be cool!

[peak escarp]

no

[craggy thistle]

Ok lol I see haha

Is just that i want more animal heroes. That is all hehe

[brittle sky]

I think there are interesting routes (both horizon and otherwise) that can achieve nonhuman animals as characters, but the nature of the setting should make them actually fit the themes and logic of the setting. A pure whimsy or non sequitur without justification can't really be done here like with a fantasy setting.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, and I doubt they would do something as silly as "giant hamster" again, considering they said Hammond was sort of the extent to how silly an overwatch character could be

Also can someone dm me the lore proof that Roadhog doesn't hate Junkrat?

Something that was kind of noticeable, is that Junkrat became more of a verbal punching bag for Roadhog and JunkerQueen in ow2 lore. (I had thought Roadhog begrudgingly would miss junkrat's company so he sticks with Junkrat, but the recent heroes ascendant stories showed that Roadhog really isn't that soft on Junkrat. Like, it genuinely seems the Junkers kinda roast on sight with Junkrat lol it's pretty mean spirited)

[brittle sky]

I mean... basic readings of subtext?

[peak escarp]

you can think someone is an idiot and still care about them

[brittle sky]

The fact that their partnership seems in any way intact after Junkrat has (seemingly) lost his big means of paying Roadhog out the 50% after the Junker Queen jacked their entire storyline

[peak escarp]

maybe he doesn't care about getting paid anymore

[brittle sky]

I mean regardless of if he cares or not for getting paid, its indicative that his motive for sticking with JR are not (or at least have become not) purely mercenary

[craggy thistle]

Totally get this! Is just that I think the concept is amazing for a non fantasy setting still

[wise grotto]

The phreakz where there to cause anarchy and steal a very specific piece of tech
We have no reason to think that set of scientists was doing anything nefarious at all
Just working with a very weird fluid

[wise grotto]

Yea
Especially with Roadhog being directly offered a way back into junkertown and deciding against it
Despite him probably definitely being paid decently since jq respects him a lot

[spare fox]

Yeah whatever roadhog did to JQ, she's seemed to have forgiven him - or forgotten

but his friendship with Junkrat is kind of the only humanity Roadhog has left

that said, I also wouldn't be surprised if the two of them split up narratively - Roadhog staying in Junkertown working for the Queen and getting some peace and quiet, while Junkrat actually puts his talents to productive use elsewhere (OW maybe?)

1. there's always the "someday I'm gonna leave you" remarks from Roadhog to Junkrat
2. Junkrat has no way to pay Roadhog anymore. Not that Roadhog doesn't care about Junkrat, but really there's no incentive to keep him alive
3. It becomes increasingly clear that Junkrat does not belong in Junkertown, yet his voicelines more often than not point to how he does want a bunch of friends, etc

basically, I could see an amicable split up between the two of them - still being friends but going different places

oh yeah and probably unrelated, but Roadhog, Sojourn, and Soldier are the only ones who have been in an omnium (other than the omnic heroes)

[wise grotto]

In an omnium?
Ok I’m missing some level of knowledge of the lore

[spare fox]

in Sojourn's novel, Sojourn and Soldier infiltrate the omnium with Dr. Liao. Roadhog was in ALF and they went into the omnium as well, causing its destruction

[glad fox]

Is mercy's resurrection a canon ability or just gameplay mechanic

[peak escarp]

we see how it works in Zero Hour

Mei is incapacitated, Mercy gives her a burst of healing to get her back up

so it's canon, it just doesn't work like it does in the game

[brittle sky]

I think any work for the queen would be redundant to Hammond's role

Like any breaking up of the rh-jr duo would be splitting them up before they've really done anything of narrative import. Any status quo has just been in the assumptions of the game and the minds of fans.

Then again they're likely shaking up the "status quo" of doomfist's predominance in talon despite the narrative not doing anything with him either.

[wise grotto]

That
I’m still not really sure what the omnium is that just tells me who’s dealt with one again

[peak escarp]

an omnium is an omnic factory

the size of a city

Junkertown is built on the ruins of one

[teal wraith]

thoughts on my glorious king emre??

[glad fox]

I guess the hero's don't actually die when they are killed but just get knocked out. Hence they respawn back

[glad fox]

He's frejas glorious emre

[teal wraith]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797341242685128715/1454211561689452606/Untitled_video_-_Made_with_Clipchamp_9.gif

[stark flax]

Is he the hot one in the freja comic story thumbnail on the main menu?

Looking evil and shit

[teal wraith]

yes

exactly

sub 3 freja next to hot glorious emre

pfft

[stark flax]

[teal wraith]

im really excited to see what happened to him

like bro js starts tweaking and murding people

[stark flax]

Glad Blizzard finally moving forward with their lore for Overwatch then

[teal wraith]

not rlly, feel like theyre ruining the lore now

also comics where not what we asked for

we asked for a movie or show

[stark flax]

I'd like a cinematic for next new champion though, tired of the still frame stuff

[teal wraith]

same!! im tired of 2d cinematicsss

https://tenor.com/view/cat-typing-screaming-cat-gif-9133294485287951157

emre deserves better

[azure flint]

if the evidence provided is legit and concrete

we are getting a new cinematic soon

in the old style

[stark flax]

Don't get my hopes up like that

[pale valve]

Vendetta vs Doom in that old style might kill lore enjoyers on the spot

From sheer peak

[azure flint]

ong

https://tenor.com/view/genji-overwatch-doomfist-winston-gif-22654033

this but with vendetta and 3d

[teal wraith]

doom snaps vendetta in half like a spaghetti noodle canon

[ripe pawn]

Another reason she should’ve been 6’8 with a guts sword and sam sullek build

[teal wraith]

yes

[hard spindle]

True actually

[rare bridge]

guys why is amelie blue

[grand wedge]

Slower heart rate.

[stone root]

Guys I havent watched the cinematics can someone recap them for me

[hard spindle]

Doomfist is the goat

[stone root]

Fair enough

[gaunt frost]

Is JQ entirely anti-omnic, or just anti evil omnic, like null sector type stuff?

[gaunt frost]

Is nepotism worse than thievery?

[brittle sky]

Incredibly anti-omnic. Like, not only wants to kill every omnic she meets, but also kill any cyborg who isn't majority human.

[gaunt frost]

Well in his defense it seemed like at the end of his comic his parents realized that just because he's not fire clan (or whatever it was called) doesn't mean he can't provide value/be something great

[gaunt frost]

Oh yeah, I do remember that one voice line she has with sojourn where she asks if she's more robot than human or something to that effect

Also, how much robot actually is sojourn, and what got her there?

[brittle sky]

Autoimmune disease

[gaunt frost]

Oh, okay

[brittle sky]

required much or her organs to be replaced, and a lot of her limbs and eyes were also subbed out

[peak escarp]

she had her first surgery at age 13

along the way she decided that since she had to replace her limbs anyway, might as well get upgrades

[azure flint]

upgrades people upgrades!

[lyric chasm]

My point was that she wasn't doing this because she was bored or cosplayed misery.

[stark flax]

I just wanna say your profile is very aesthetic, I saw Juno and then pretty clouds and stars

[rare bridge]

hahaha thanks, sadly its a free nitro trail tho 🙁 , it will end soon

[stark flax]

rip, very aesthetic still ✨️

[rare bridge]

i see

[shrewd pivot]

Popping in to clarify, I mean that Roadhog and junkers in general have been written as pretty mean spirited towards Junkrat. Roadhog makes some choice comments too. I accept it as canon but early days ow1 did make it seem like Roadhog was in a kind of "would begrudgingly miss Junkrat's company" dynamic duo with Junkrat (plus the treasure)

Idk, I just remember the recent voicelines + heroes ascendant stories being pretty harsh on junkrat lmao

Not that I heavily pity junkrat or anything, it was just a notable writing shift from ow1 to ow2 imo, it seems like the junkers kinda hate Junkrat lol

[rare bridge]

also guys did anyone see the newest storytime, (i forgot the name) the one which vendetta talks with max, , i saw a teaser of vishkar there, you guys think sanjay might be added as a hero?

https://www.instagram.com/p/DUEIazqDVPV/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[shrewd pivot]

I recommend reading the text of this story! I gives some important hints that Maximilien is scheming something

[cold lily]

secret pig bashed charlie krik and they created the watch that they put over there wrists a overwatch you could say

[keen summit]

They talked more of vishkar as a whole

Its possible but then again emre who is likely the next hero wasn't mention

[rare bridge]

ya emre is very likely also, some say anran is possible too

[keen summit]

Anran is basically confirmed as a hero next year

Theres a chinese lime with fire

But haxards line was leaked months before too

Emre is super likely as next hero especially with all the talon stuff

A dual release could be cool

[edgy tree]

She's also not against cybernetics and seems quite happy to have them which suprized Genji in their interraction about it

since uknow he needed a whole spiritual journey to get used to them

[rare bridge]

yeah, but that rarely happens, but it might since they keep on labelling 21 as a "major update"

i heard you can find anran's voicelines in games files

[keen summit]

You can

Echo has a new chinese line

[edgy tree]

the first season of a year consistantly made major changes to the game

like seasons 9 heathbar stuff

having a dual release woudn't be suprizing tbh

[keen summit]

i just find it unlikely with the whole

dps anran

i think honestly emre and vendetta were swapped much akin to mauga and ramattra

[craggy thistle]

Hi gm! So this is not a theory but i will love to see a mycologist in the game !! (Mushroom scientist ^^)

[keen summit]

it could happen

cant really add more than that

[wise grotto]

Pretty sure soj is like
Almost entirely cybernetics at this point

Her face has spots to take off the outter skin sections on her own head
So I’d imagine there’s not much of anything about her that’s still natural

[craggy thistle]

Yea is just something I will like to see like i said

Hehe

[pale valve]

their ult just makes everyone start hallucinating lol

[craggy thistle]

Haha yea that will be dope

[brittle sky]

While I think both enough time has passed without looking like they were riffing and the staff has likely rotated enough to not have such associations themselves, a reason we haven't gotten a mycologically themed character before is likely that an early short lived rival of overwatch had a mushroom healer in its cast.

[fallow mantle]

Story time

https://youtu.be/kQR0S4jxDKM?si=5j1oLAbRXq5SQ7so

[edgy tree]

damn too late

[azure flint]

https://youtu.be/kQR0S4jxDKM

embed

[fallow mantle]

Years later and I still can't embed 💀

[azure flint]

this one moves a little more

[fallow mantle]

Domina is cool

I like her

[azure flint]

they actually pumping these out so fast wtf

blizzard is locked in rn

[peak escarp]

it's the start of a new story arc

they gotta set the scene

[shrewd pivot]

Honestly Vendetta feels like she should have released closer to when Stadium launched? It wouldn't suprise me if they switched hero releases around

[keen summit]

For me it feels as if they wanted to do this start of year so switched it

But couldbe been hype if vendetta wasn't playable when this was happening so we got hyped for her release

[edgy tree]

u can ask for the ability to do so

[fallow mantle]

Like Ramattra with Invasion

[fallow mantle]

Who've I gotta poke

[edgy tree]

"modmail"

top of the members list

[fallow mantle]

Thank you

[keen summit]

Yup

They were swapped

[fallow mantle]

Yeah I remember all the invasion trailers hyped him up a load as if it was our first time seeing him since Storm Rising...when we got him 8 months before 😭 imagine if they'd been able to stick to their desired release plans

But tbh the Mauga hype was... Hype

[keen summit]

Yea

And i think emre and vendetta likely were swapped

They mightve been like we should have en out

[fierce moon]

did they forget to post this one on the website

[azure flint]

yk i thought this season was pretty boring for the start of a new era of ow but when i started thinking abt it just being the prelude to it

it made more sense

they just laying the groundwork first

[keen summit]

I mean

[fierce moon]

everything starts next season yeah

[keen summit]

Id not call a sudden menu change boring

That was sick

Most lore content we have ever gotten in a few months too

[azure flint]

it was boring for the most part but stuff is actually happening now

[edgy tree]

not the servers burning alive during that dx

[azure flint]

at the tailend of the season

[keen summit]

Its insane how much we are getting

[edgy tree]

they sent out like 40 battle pass codes that got instantly claimed

I was stuck in queue so I didn't even get a chance to try to type them in xd

[native hazel]

ok so 10 new heroes for 2026 im excited

ok so this new vishkaar person is basically a symmetra and ashe fusion

fun

[past copper]

Anran, Emre, and Domina. Our first three new heroes of the year

[peak escarp]

Domina, Emre and Anran are likely to be the next three

not sure of the order

[past copper]

Pretty sure Emre is first up

And he sticks me as a tank if Anran is dps

Domina, I wonder if she'd be a dps or support

Unless they can make her unique from Symmetra and Lifeweaver to make her a tank

I only really think she might be a support hero since that's where Sym started out at release of OW

[peak escarp]

she's got robot arms like Ramattra's nemesis form

[wise grotto]

What does domina look like

[hollow spire]

new lore yessss

hork hork hork

[untold sparrow]

This is getting spicy ( the lore)

Only one more lore drop left

[keen summit]

I think domina might be support

But it does confirm Sanjay wasn't acting on his own

Cool

[next yacht]

Really? Wow

[untold sparrow]

Yep

[next yacht]

I hope they soon do more stuff for rammatra.

[untold sparrow]

I bet it's the doom fist fight

[untold sparrow]

BAHAHAHAHAHAH

[next yacht]

Id love to see this

[untold sparrow]

HAHAHAAH

hah....

[next yacht]

Its a tall order

[untold sparrow]

they've closed that story

[next yacht]

IM SORRY?

[untold sparrow]

Yeah that is what the one animated comic was. A closing story, and also the null sector retreating

One story ends, another begins

[next yacht]

Yes but, it shouldnt be finished? What about the omnics he captured?

[untold sparrow]

That is true, but I think they are trying to stray away from it

OMG VEN MADE A DEAL WITH VISHKARR

[next yacht]

That disappoints me, when I started playing ow2 and played tank, rammatra was so compelling for me

[next yacht]

In the new video?

[untold sparrow]

oop: spoilers

poof

[next yacht]

Its fine,

Though I am bummed they closed his story

[untold sparrow]

Yeah she met with the head of vishkarr

And offered a place at her "table"

[next yacht]

Im still happy they are doing any lore at all

[untold sparrow]

She is gathering allies to have in her new order

[next yacht]

The most caught up i am is after she met up with Maximilian

.the chip thing he gave her and such

[untold sparrow]

Fair

[next yacht]

They have teased a couple new chars, I've heard that there could be multiple heros releasing this year

[wooden drift]

Well, he said that he's first part of the plan has been completed. Obviously they aren't done with him

[untold sparrow]

Yeah but I still think they are trying to stray away from it

[brittle sky]

A vice president. Important, but not a singular head

[next yacht]

Of course, I loved thinking how cool it would be to see rammatra fight overwatch in a animation or depart from talon

[untold sparrow]

Ah ok

[next yacht]

Good to know

[wooden drift]

Well he did one of those at least

[brittle sky]

And this being a company, they have lots of those

[untold sparrow]

Ye hates the OG talon

I bet he'll join ven's talon

[next yacht]

Shown in the comic with zen, if im not mistaking

[brittle sky]

Very important though. Senior management, and granddaughter of vishkar's founder

[next yacht]

That'd be cool, but id wonder if their interests would align?

[brittle sky]

I uh... Really doubt he'd go for vendetta

[untold sparrow]

Yep

[next yacht]

Im guessing he will depart from talon as a whole

[untold sparrow]

True it'd go against his morals

[wooden drift]

One of the reasons he left talon was because of Vendetta's bs

[untold sparrow]

flop

[brittle sky]

I think the reconciliation shows ram very much washing his hands of all talon squabbling. It's not like he was in talon, just kind of aligned/sponsored by them.

[fierce moon]

i am so here for the sanjay slander

[brittle sky]

And I don't think a human declaring she was making an empire with her as uncontested imperator will appeal to ram. Ego and martyr complex aside he does not like rulers, and certainly not a human one.

[untold sparrow]

Is he an anarchist?

[next yacht]

All he wants is to free his people, because he got his fair share of omnics, he might give a news broadcast to humanity again one of these times against hurting omnics, all speculation on my end

[untold sparrow]

Why not just continue the story of ram then?

It...doesn't make sense to me

[next yacht]

I love Ram's story, I guess it's just me wanting more

[wooden drift]

Probably cuz they wanna do something new and then return back to rammatra later

[next yacht]

That'd be nice,

maybe they will make more missions for story mode?

Soon

[wooden drift]

It was half confirmed in that comic too

[wooden drift]

Heck no, it flopped

[next yacht]

Gee I wonder why, a price tag for 3 whole missions

[wooden drift]

Even if it was cheaper it is still really reparative and boring

[next yacht]

Agreed

It would've gotten a lot more money if they added more chars

Better missions and such

[peak escarp]

imagine having to pay money for things

[next yacht]

Though your right, I doubt they will add onto the story now

[wooden drift]

I would much prefer if they maybe made single player plot heavy overwatch games

[next yacht]

What?

[wooden drift]

Like spin-offs

[next yacht]

That'd be amazing

[peak escarp]

someone was complaining about having to pay for the story missions

as if paying for a product isn't a normal thing

[wooden drift]

I think LoL had something like this

[next yacht]

Not complaining, stating who would pay 15 bucks for something 3 missions

Im a little broke so It might just be me

[wooden drift]

Well it gives you coins and skin too

[next yacht]

Lol?

[wooden drift]

So, it's something

[wooden drift]

League of Legends

[next yacht]

Fair point,

[next yacht]

Ohh mb

[wooden drift]

Oh, wow, I'm actually surprised that they never made any talon pve missions. Weird that they never thought of it

[peak escarp]

there were a couple in OW1

or do you mean missions where you play as Talon?

[wooden drift]

Yeah, that

Like how ow1 had those

But, I guess sigma being the only talon tank would make him kinda overpowered in pve modes

[peak escarp]

not all PvE modes had a tank

Retribution was 3 dps 1 support

[wooden drift]

Oh, yeah, forgot about it

Still surprised that it didn't happen in any shape or form

Could've been a neat little mission about talon

[peak escarp]

I guess they didn't want us to play as the badguys?

[fallow mantle]

Yeah I'm assuming they're gonna do a cinematic during the Spotlight event tbh

[wooden drift]

The only logical place tbh

No way they shadow dropping something this massive

[wooden drift]

Or they just didn't think of it

[shrewd pivot]

Just read the text version of the lore video today. It read completely different. Vaira comes off as manipulative(her lateness was probably intentional as a power move) and coy(fiery one comment was playful) but in the video she comes off as classist(drivers comment comes off like a personal flaw, seeing servants as less than and that the lateness was an accident) and judgemental("fiery one" comes off a bit rudely)

[wooden drift]

Bruh, Vendetta gets easily manipulated twice already, what the heck

[shrewd pivot]

Oh Vendetta wasn't manipulated with Vaira in the text story imo, Vendetta forced Vaira into a corner woth blackmail to accept Vendetta's terms.

It's just Vaira came off completely different mood wise in the text vs the video we got

[wooden drift]

Oh, okay

Would've been kinda funny, if she got tricked to twice tricked by her allies

[edgy tree]

idk why ppl get the idea Vendetta is being manipulated I only saw the vids and she seems preety in controll of the situation

esp the blackmail in the 2nd one

[limpid inlet]

Yeah

[shrewd pivot]

Also wtf was the "first name is intimate" bs.

Italy uses name days, tons of people share the same name (ie Maria) and therefore nicknames (Mary) is common. The government officials use full government names, but it's very common, especially in mafia movies, to have the Mafioso call someone by thier first name if not a nickname given by the Mafioso to indicate the Mafioso is in power + a terrifying casualness to his power.

In South India, it's very common for superiors to use the first names of subordinates, otherwise sir/ma'am/ji.

If anything, Vendetta was being extremely formal, and Vaira just offered to be treated as a subordinate or equal to Vendetta by offering her first name, it wasn't "intimate" at all.

Using "Miss.(last name)" is incredibly West European eurocentric as a formality too, and the text pointing Vaira and Vendetta having the same ettiquite??? India and Italy have entirely different ettiquite standards, does this imply Overwatch is officially Western European eurocentric in upper class? That the upper class use Western European ettiquite language and English for global negotiations?

Or did the writers forget to do any research into Indian and Italian culture. :/

[shrewd pivot]

In the text version of Vendetta's interaction with Maximilien, Vendetta was absolutely manipulated by Maximilien.

In this story, Vendetta sees through Vaira and manipulated Vaira. Vaira doesn't manipulate Vendetta in the video nor the text imo.

[peak escarp]

in a professional/business setting, it's polite to address people by titles/last names - Vaira asking her to use her first name is unusually intimate for a business meeting

[edgy tree]

Hard to say she was completly manipulated though he knows the ins and outs of Talon and she needed the info just feels more like they both got what they wanted rather than one side using the other

unlike in this story where Vaira got blackmailed into doing what Vendetta wanted

[limpid inlet]

I mean it’s the 2070s

A lot could change no?

I mean the world today is probably quite Eurocentric to some degree

[peak escarp]

Vendetta was giving her respect by using her surname

[brittle sky]

Jen definitely wrote a mildly (mildly) flirty tone to the ven-dom encounter

Definitely an interesting contrast where while vendetta portrays herself as an upstart challenger, her coalition (her as old talon heiress, the financier kingpin, the big corporation whose rep is both a heiress and downright described as aristocratic) all seem very classic elites. Heck, if emre is being dragged into this and is set as a pawn of the conspiracy, adds up to big ol' illuminati feelings.

[shrewd pivot]

The " Miss Singhania” " part is what I meam. It is not written as "Ms. Singhania" or just a last name "Singhania", is very polite in Italian. "Ms." is entirely different from "Miss" in Italian, and in English ettiquite too.

Unless the writers don't know grammar...? Uding the word "Miss" implies Vendetta is using a polite Miss, not a formal Ms.

Additionally, Vaira is from India and Vishkar is South Indian, in South India formal work enviorments have superiors calling subordinates by first names. It is not uncommon to say "Ms. Singhania" but "Ma'am" or "Singhania-ji" indicates you are working for Vaira. For Vaira to tell Vendetta, "please call me Vaira", not only indicating Vaira is to be treated as subordinate (South Indian ettiquite), but to an Italian a government first name is still incredibly formal. Italy uses name days from Catholic practices, so many people named "Maria" exist. If a "Maria 'Mary' Anna Russo" asked to be called Maria, it's friendly but still formal in Italy, bc no joke only like policemen use your full government name. If "Maria 'Mary' Anna Russo" asked to be called Mary, THAT is intimate.

For all the talk of ettiquite Vendetta has, it feels like no research was done into actual cultural ettiquite nor upper class ettiquite

[peak escarp]

they probably didn't

[merry mason]

The answer is the overwatch writers don't think that hard about it

[peak escarp]

nobody but you would notice

to the average English speaking reader, it reads just fine

[shrewd pivot]

My point is,Vendetta sucks as Italian rep 😭

Ana has better (not perfect) rep, they take into consideration cultural aspects for Ana.

Vendetta's rep so far is on par with having a Japanese hero mess up using basic Japanese honorifics.

I don't need 1 to 1 realism, bit Vendetta doesn't feel Italian at all, the only Italian aspect is her VA, and much if Vendetta's dialog is not written with an Italian accent in mind.

[peak escarp]

it probably wasn't

the writers aren't experts in language or etiquette

[shrewd pivot]

Meanwhile, Genji's VA iirc actually helped translate lines better, they got Illari speaking Quechua, Mauga had a real Sāmoan artist to design his markings.

It's not like every character is great or perfect rep, but they had some thought put into cultural rep. And I think it's reasonable to expect cultural rep/research to get better over time with overwatch hero releases, not worse.

Vendetta feels like a stereotype (rage short tempered Italian lady who is Mafia) with nothing Italians or Mediterraneans can relate to in her depictions beyond her accent.

[merry mason]

I gonna be honest, you inspect this story much more closely than it was ever intended to be.

[peak escarp]

overanalyzing things is this guy's MO

[shrewd pivot]

Sombra ARG kind of asked people to look at the story closer

Also, it's not bad to critique a franchise if it's goals are to create global rep on the roster

[peak escarp]

plenty of heroes are stereotypes

[merry mason]

most really

[shrewd pivot]

Many are, but the point is that Cassidy is a celebration of spaghetti western pulp fiction camp, not a negative stereotype with little southern rep.

Overwatch is by FAR much more mindful than other blizzard ips ofc, but like

I don't think it's controversial to say, dang Lucio really SHOULD have had Portuguese lines day one, not as an update/afterthought

[merry mason]

and the ones he has arent even that good

[peak escarp]

Junkrat is also a bad stereotype

and a few heroes don't have much of their culture involved in their character, like Venture and Pharah

inconsistent writing has been an issue from the start

[wise grotto]

Tracers also a big stereotype dialogue wise the va was asked exclusively to sound “more British”

[shrewd pivot]

I just. Idk

Doomfist vs Orisa+Efi feels like worldbuilding for Overwatch's Nigeria while pulling from Yoruba culture and mythos (Numbani is basically scifi Yoruba-land, Doomfist is a Dambe fighter, Orisa is an Orisha festival costume but scifi aka basically a Golem story but scifi) so it feels like fun camp and worldbuilding. The idea that a young Nigerian kid full of hope building inventions can help fight off an evil villain that represents "social Darwinism" and brutality, that is overwatch camp.

[wise grotto]

Unironically what they asked her

[wise grotto]

Ow current actual writing team is like brand new again
Like
They’ve at most been here less then 6 months

The old writing team was either already gone or Microsoft slaughtered it

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Tracer's accent is absolutely played up, but it falls into "camp" more so than genuinely mocking of accents imo? But I fully understand the criticism

[wise grotto]

I’ve generally seen a couple British friends hate tracers accent heavily

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, and as new writers, you looked what lore you are adding to, it's your job to write things that match the ip you are working for.

[wise grotto]

Unlike heroes like hazard who generally is loved

[wooden drift]

Dude, I have a feeling you're being kinda insulted for other people, relax

[shrewd pivot]

Hazard's story is very good I agree

[wise grotto]

And making mistakes when your essentially handed a shit ton of things and told to get to going HARD on it

It’s like being dropped into a shit show and being told to sort it out fast

It’s gonna take some time for the weird parts (especially the old writing teams mistakes with kiriko) to actually get patched out so to say

If time isn’t given you get stories like borderlands 3 where the quality of story changes drastically so often that parts of it don’t even feel like they’re the same story’s

[shrewd pivot]

No? I am explaining that Overwatch uses camp in a way that plays with and subverts stereotypes in hero designs.

For example, Zarya was actually pretty subversive as a female "strongman" with bright pink hair, playing off of Russian stereotypes of women being dainty(Zarya has a dainty nose) but also strong (Zarya is the worlds strongest woman, making a negative stereotype into something campy and fun). Today, Zarya doesn't really stand out as much anymore bc of context, many other games have represented strongman women.

[azure flint]

#retconkirisage2026

[wise grotto]

They just need to change a 1 into an 8 or 7

[peak escarp]

[wise grotto]

That’s all there

[wise grotto]

Zaryas still a very cool character as a Russian body builder who’s generally just really sweet
Those characters are consistently loved in every piece of media there in Zarya still stands out to me csuse of her design

[azure flint]

deliberately make her mention her true age somehow

to fix it

ez

[peak escarp]

you're supposed to stop when the horse is dead

[wise grotto]

She never only stood out csuse she was “unique” as a stereotype
She was the pink haired Russian strong woman that’s all it was

[wise grotto]

The rotting corpse must be beat again

[azure flint]

yeah pretty much every hero was designed as "this is x and this is what their abilities are, they also come from this country" i feel

and just sprinkle in some things abt their country

[wise grotto]

Vendetta from the get go felt aggressively anti tradition
Like her outfit for a gladiator alone drives that aspect home there’s not a traditional thing about any of that
Her swords fancy and tech filled to cheat
And despite being a gladiator shed very clearly rather make alliences and build up an empire before fighting then outright fight

[pastel stirrup]

i think tracer's va does a great job and im british
i also have a british friend who agrees

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed! I am just discussing the general use of camp/subversion in ow hero design

Like, Reaper is "an angel with a shotgun" grim reaper named Gabriel from Los Angeles. Overwatch isn't meant to be taken fully seriously lmafo, but it does have serious stories within regardless. Like, the drama between Reyes in Blackwatch and Jack and Ana and Reaper's beef with overwatch is played pretty seriously.

My point is, because of worldbuilding Doomfist doesn't feel like an overt negative stereotype of Nigerian men. Imo, due to worldbuilding Vendetta feels like an overt stereotype of Italian woman.

And with how they handled Reinhardt's design/lore, I would have expected them to understand why "my Roman empire" mixed with "The Godfather mafia empire" doesn't exactly sit well to be "overly dramatic" about considering Italy's history. Vendetta being a "rule of cool" villain within the context of her supposed to be representing Italy as an Italian hero, it's like... okay... they DO realize abstracted depictions of evil tyrants like Darth Vader wasn't just for aura farming right? That star wars is a space opera, so scenes of "grandiose" authoritarian displays of power are meant to represent evil corruption and devil's temptation, not "aura farming rule of cool, look at that BIG SWORD"?

Like, Vendetta basically has a light saber (dark saber) sword, and uses opera music in her trailer. I would have expected her rep in her writing to be better than "look at nepo baby mafia lady be dramatic and have plot armor"

Doomfist atleast got defeated on screen before lol

[shrewd pivot]

My point was that, Zarya had a cool design that also did some campyness and subversion. Overwatch heroes aren't just "cool design" there's a little more thought into showcasing a heroes trope/story through design. Like, Junkrat shows his story through his wild animations and injuries. He COULD have just been a body model similar to Soldier76 with all limbs in tact, but Junkrat’s campy design helps make his character memorable

[shrewd pivot]

And every day I am thankful they changed Junkrat’s design from the concepts, because he might have been an indigenous Australian based on the designs he had from the early concept art. It would have been a VERY negative stereotype.

Junkrat today reads as a madmax trope + Wile coyote humor kind of deal, more so than an intentional malicious stereotype about mental illness

[peak escarp]

most people complain that he's not Australian enough - not much of an accent, mostly just a bad stereotype of what Americans think Australians are

[azure flint]

https://tenor.com/view/emoji-gif-21920724

[shrewd pivot]

...? Is this channel not to be used for discussing lore.

[shrewd pivot]

That's a fair criticism. The junkers are mad max, so that's an extreme trope. And depicting Australians as Crocodile Dundee or madmax is a negative stereotype Hollywood often has. It's bc the pulp fiction from Australia IS madmax that I think the junkers existing is a fun thing bc overwatch has other ridiculous pulp fiction heroes like Widowmaker, Tracer, Cassidy, etc.

I do think it would be really nice to see more of Australia outside of the radiated outback, but idk if we will get another Australian hero considering there are 4 junkers on the roster already if you count Wreckingball.

[wise grotto]

Roadhog is the indigenous one out of the two of them but like Australia isn’t a. Normal location in world any@ore truely so

[shrewd pivot]

The outback is irradiated, but many Australian cities seem to be normal.

The junkers are just madlads lol

[wise grotto]

Nepo baby wouldn’t really be a good word for her she’s the exact opposite
Her father died and she literally had to go from the ground up

[peak escarp]

she wanted to be a nepo baby and is throwing a tantrum because she can't

[wise grotto]

I@mean she was literally taught her family was super rich and powerful and all this will be yours type shit
And then when he died this world that her entire life was built on was picked clean by the people who supposedly helped her father and she was abandoned

[shrewd pivot]

She's a nepo baby malding that she never got to inherit her father's mafia terrorist empire, Talon took that from her.

She didn't have to be a villain nor pursue the mafia family business, but she believes because she was born into a certain bloodline, she DESERVES power. She plans to take back her inheritance and expand her empire.

[peak escarp]

something something divine right of kings

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah p much

Doesn't suprise me considering irl the Mafia is pretty much a cult, religion/spirituality plays a huge role in the "honor complex" the mafia carry.

[peak escarp]

there are similarites between Vendetta and Ashe

[wise grotto]

She was literally taught that it isn’t entirely her coming to that conclusion
Nepo baby just wouldn’t be the word as she is currently csuse she did have to actively work to get something

Doom is ironically more of one

[peak escarp]

his family tried to distance themselves from him after he rose to power, even changing the name of their company

[shrewd pivot]

"Nepo baby" is in reference to inhereting power due to family ties. A nepo baby can still be worthy of the role, the issue is that they gained the power due to family ties(or think they DESERVE that power due to family ties).

[brittle sky]

Like.. whatever she was disinherited from her response was to get the training and opportunity to go into professional sports. That's not someone truly destitute has the scratch for. I doubt she faced anything like real hardship.

[shrewd pivot]

The difference between Ashe and Vendetta is that Ashe rejected being an object and pawn to parents that did not love her. Ashe plans to take down her family's company. Ashe thinks her family's company does harm and needs to be publicly ruined, as revenge against her parents.

Vendetta is fighting to reclaim her heirloom, and genuinely is pro-mafia. She wants to rule an empire better than Antonio did.

Not even Genji or Hanzo still actually are pro-Shimada clan. But Vendetta is very much pro-terrorist organization that her father held, she wants to build it better than he had managed.

[gloomy rose]

haven’t checked the new thing yet but damn we are getting a LOT of lore drops suddenly

cautiously optimistic that means they give a shit about the story again

[shrewd pivot]

She probably did have to risk her life fighting to earn money, but once she got the contacts and power, it was more like wounded pride that is upsetting her.

The fact Maximilien compared himself to Vendetta lmafooooo, it's so funny bc the hardships of an "innocent at awakening" omnic surviving essentially targeted genocide from humanity to then integrate into human society to learn how to control humans, is not a hardship at all comparable to a 18/19 year old mafia daughter having her terrorist empire stolen from her bc her dad was murdered by Blackwatch so she becomes poor(?) so she goes to win gladiator fights for prestige and money.

[shrewd pivot]

Same!!!

[brittle sky]

"poor"

[shrewd pivot]

I think she did loose her inheritance so idk how poor she actually was.

Tho tbf maybe her family could have helped her? Idk tho I don't recall any lore saying she relied on family after her father died.

It would be hysterical if Vendetta actually did have some great aunts/uncles/cousins but she was just so mafia-grindset-focused she dramatically denies or scares away any help lol.

Final thoughts:

Vendetta might use Vishkar shield tech in her attack to usurp doomfist, based on the text story

The text story also unceremoniously writes Sanjay off. I don't mind him going to the side or anything, and I def want to see his superiors, and I get it's from Vendetta's perspective in the text story, but if Sanjay actually is a "pathetic worm/incompetent" type, it makes Symmetra's lore worse if she couldn't see that in Sanjay, and it makes little sense to have Sanjay be a seat at the Talon table if he really is that spineless/incompetent as a representative.

[digital linden]

i love domina already

[brittle sky]

Alternatively Sanjay as beleaguered middle manager makes him infinitely more fun than him as mastermind

Like we saw in stone by stone he's not even necessarily unsympathetic to sym's more reformist impulses.

Him getting the dirty work of talon liaisons or sabotage in Rio might indicate he's regarded as disposable, not critical.

[glad osprey]

is doomfist really going to die

[brittle sky]

Almost certainly not

Deposed is still on the table

But killed off feels like an unlikely move as well as a bad one

[peak escarp]

I'd be very surprised if Doomfist is killed

I'm expecting a fakeout

[glad osprey]

I mean there's no chance vendetta kills THE doomfist

[brittle sky]

Would be a bit weird to destroy the signature aspect of Doom's kit

[craggy thistle]

True

[fallow mantle]

Doomfist joins Overwat

[wise grotto]

She lost all of it really
It is the whole point when he died there family’s stuff (which we only know of him and her) was picked apart and taken away and she was ditched so it’s likely she essentially had whatever she personally still had and had to work her way back to it all

[shrewd pivot]

Oh he doesn't need to be a genius/mastermind, just competent. Even if its some kind of corpo evil competence.

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah that was my guess, she lost her inheritance and was poor. Idk how bad it was canonically tho, considering even past relationships from the work Antonio did would give Vendetta an edge at getting opportunities.

[limpid inlet]

Yeep

[slim wasp]

https://x.com/atutcha/status/2018361875835019689?s=20

Atu🕷️آتو (@atutcha)

That’s how she talks to her new boss btw

X · Feb 2, 2026, 4:32 PM

is doomfist fucking dead?

wdym new boss

or is this just some implied/fan fiction

[shrewd pivot]

Doomfist is not dead, Vendetta will usurp Doomfist

[fierce moon]

vendetta took control of talon

widowmaker works for talon

[shrewd pivot]

Also I just realized, because lore often reflects the hero kits in some manner,

If Vendetta is using a hard light sword and is now using Vishkar shielding technologies, that might be the "reason" Vendetta's ult does true damage and ignores shields? Maybe she has the blackmail/intel to render certain hardlight tech useless, like shields.

[wise grotto]

I wouldn’t be suprised if she had someone develop technology specifically to bypass through vishkars own shields and upgraded the sword to boot

[brittle sky]

She gains a hard light shield, gets juiced from Moira tech, goes full tank. Doomfist, usurped, goes back to DPS. Periodically, whoever takes over talon goes tank

[shrewd pivot]

DPS to Tank pipeline...

And yeah that would explain a "true damage" hero like Vendetta, since her whole thing seems to be about fighting dirty, blackmail, etc to get raw power. 'Who needs survival of the fittest when you can just buy power?' Kind of deal ig? Idk

[wise grotto]

Survival of the fittest realistically doesn’t exactly disclose using dirty tricks
Cause at that point if you win you where more fit to win anyway

Fighting for honour or belief in the honour of fighting is different then survival of the fittest

Survival doesn’t care about honour it jsut cares about who’s left standing at the end

[azure flint]

does vendetta say "i am the wolf" or smth for her ult

[shrewd pivot]

True, but (atleast, from my understanding) Doomfist would be the kind of villain to fund Efi because he sees potential in her excellence. Vendetta would not, she would probably actively suppress any possible threats. Doomfist wants humanity to evolve through conflict. Vendetta just wants to rule.

[azure flint]

i actually dk what the new heroes say in their ults when they dont speak english

[wise grotto]

Doomfist only cares about strength
And beloved conflict creates strength

Vendetta cares about power

They just simply are contradictory

Doomfist only makes allies yo csuse more conflict to create more strength from the survivors

Vendetta wants to be that strongest one

[shrewd pivot]

There are subtitles you can turn on in game to get the exact text. I think there's translations of the foriegn language hero lines into English on wikis.

“Arriva la Punizione!” Translates litterally to: “Punishment is arriving”, or "Retribution comes" like Vendetta says in English

[wise grotto]

Probably my favourite part of vendetta vs doom

The way they see strength is completely opposite and makes them even without the history clashing views

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah
Doomfist believes in "social darwinism" aka through conflict the strong will lead, survival of the fittest. Doomfist funds people he sees excellence in to further that goal because he believes "through conflict, we evolve"

Im just trying to figure out what exactly Vendetta means narratively if her philosophy of "i rule absolutely" dictatorship usurps Doomfist's "social darwinism"

Ramattra was a pessimist about unity, which is a good antagonist for "optumistic future, have hope!" Overwatch. Doomfist too, represents a bleak wartorn future philosophy, a good "big bad" for optumistic future #HaveHope Overwatch to battle.

Vendetta is just straight up evil tho so idk what is really being said there that Vendetta usurps Doomfist. That Doomfist's philosophy invites the worst of humanity? Idk

[wise grotto]

If someone outright beat vendetta I don’t think she’d be able to argue against that honestly
But vendetta beating him would unironically prove his own idealogy hilariously

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah exactly, which makes Doomfist a more complex villain because if you defeat him, he technically still "wins" bc he believes the strong should lead.

[wise grotto]

Vendetta just views things as an “I win or lose and I hate losing”

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah she's very one note right now. I hope they explore how she will reorganize Talon.

[wise grotto]

I like the more “I win or nothing” villains when contrasting more depth filled ones csuse
There another one you can’t really prove wrong csuse if they lose
Yes they lost you won and you played there game as well

[wise grotto]

Same
The line of dialogue between her and widow made me interested in her a ton

The “you not needing praise is why I will praise you” can be cool to explore

[brittle sky]

I mean the smart way to play the scenario would be if they emphasized the chaos of the null crisis, emphasize the disorder and how the resultant panic leads certain sectors to seek anyone offering order, even if it's a monster offering a cruel and oppressive order. So far it's been the money people - max and vishkar - who go running to vendetta because doomfist's tactics feel unstable (max), and they feel they can safely profit and control vendetta. The remaining projected defections are supposedly motivated by money (Moira) and someone dependent on control and patronage in the form of drugs (widow).

[wise grotto]

Vendetta also knows she can control these people because she will actively help anyone’s goals who help her own
Doomfist just wanted to keep the chaos going without any care for who helped him

Vendetta on a personal level is more attached to who she views as ally’s

Which is why others would ally with her

Vendetta plans to repay loyalty at a cost and doomfist was indifferent you either helped him or didn’t

[brittle sky]

Nah, she actively sees her allies as serfs and minions. It's not aid, it's patronage and leverage to her. She seems like the better ticket only because she promises to make the trains run on time, but she nakedly views it as bread and circuses to secure her reign.

[wise grotto]

We haven’t seen her betray anyone to
Reallt confirm this
She won’t see them as equals hit doom only sees them as tools to keep the way he wants the world to run going

Doom would ally with Junkrat if it meant causing more war and destruction

Vendetta being very Mafia esque
I doubt she’d be one to not follow through with massive promises and compromises
She expects loyalty and nothing less

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, I can easily predict that Vendetta will create a Talon empire that gets too large and too vast to mange, so it fractures like the Roman Empire and villains scramble to claim the scraps. She will probably be betrayed like Ceasar was in some way, probably Maximilien since his namesake (Maximilien Robespierre) and the fact Maximilien seems to be scheming something in the text version of the story with Maximilien and Vendetta.

[brittle sky]

And vendetta would happily give junker queen everything she wants if she thought she could bring her to heel.

[brittle sky]

I mean I'm more prone to compare vendetta to the last guys who tried to say they'd build a new Rome rather than Rome itself.

[wise grotto]

She’s exactly like a mafia and will run a system like a mafia where eventually the person in charge will have to watch there back all the time to try to stay safe

[brittle sky]

I mean that's always been talon.

At no point was it not a den of vipers

[wise grotto]

Yes but doomfist didn’t run it like one

[brittle sky]

I think he did actually. He just revelled in the counter schemes rather than tried to crush his rising competition

Obviously he kicked vialli off that very short bridge

[wise grotto]

Mafias are ran for power
Doomfist wanted to make world in his vision talon was just convenient
Vendetta is intensely mafia esque

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah. But idk i feel like overwatch would do best not to make Vendetta inspired by that group, and instead stick with a historical mythos aspect of the she-wolf and ancient Rome. Just like how Brigitte is a modern day squire etc. Lots of heroes are history refs due to mythos/pulp fiction

Reinhardt to me is enough that I can say "ok yeah they probably don't understand the culture/history enough to handle the topic mindfully"

And like... The Mafia hated the regime because it challenged thier control and authority. It would be... odd to combine that group WITH the mafia for Vendetta's inspo. It would be misunderstanding Italian history and making a really rough stereotype of the worst things Italy's history has to offer.

(I don't wish to break server rules, but I hope this is ok to discuss as Vendetta is pretty obviously Roman mythos inspired.)

[brittle sky]

I mean, she's also dictator-y. She's just power and her own indulgence. We can say that is mafia like because that kind of self serving monster rises well in organized crime, but it's not a uniquely mafia thing. Mostly the comparison to the other thing comes with her shallow invoking of Roman aesthetics to imitate its sense of power and how the moneyed are considering her a controllable bet. I don't think there's ideological resemblance beyond her strongman desires and some vague grievance driven return instincts.

[shrewd pivot]

And yeah, Vendetta having a "chosen one"/"bloodline superiority" outlook is very on par with the mafia. Like idk i hate to be that guy "the mafia is not an aesthetic" lmafo, but the mafia has some of the worst crime. It's a racketeering cartel ran by people that believe they are there by God's will. It's not a silly thing like movies make it out to be.

Vendetta also pulls from the she wolf, the mythos of how Rome was founded. Lots of mythos about the tyrants of that era to pull from.

[brittle sky]

Though the Mafia does try to imitate the movies about themselves in some occasionally silly ways