lore-discussion

[peak escarp]

what is filoni style?

[brittle sky]

presumably referencing the specific style dave filoni applies to his various star wars properties

kinda an exagerrated, mimimally textured, clay like 3d model

[past copper]

The animation style used in Star Wars The Clone Wars, Bad Batch, and Tales of the Jedi/Empire

[peak escarp]

none of the above then

[brittle sky]

I'm wondering why the pixar model of the og shorts is off the table

[peak escarp]

yeah

I want Blizzard SFD style

[past copper]

Because Blizzard animation got as cheap as Pixar

[brittle sky]

idk man, that's like saying a league show had to look like the worst of league sfd, rather than fortiche

[past copper]

I'm not wrong tho. The original style the team used either got cut with the employees or too expensive and time consuming

And on a side note, Pixar has gotten cheap. Turning Red and Elio etc.

[peak escarp]

Turning Red looked good

I haven't seen Elio

[past copper]

I'm not saying Turning Red wasn't good

I liked it

But I'm just saying Pixar should settle on an animation style

[peak escarp]

it looks the same as all their other movies

[past copper]

Not really. Pixar has changed animation a lot over the years. Not sure why "bean mouth" suddenly became the go to

[brittle sky]

saying pixar should never vary in their stylization to match their subject matter is a wild take

but yeah, in this hypothetical, what they should do is something akin to their original in house style

[past copper]

No. A wild take is saying Pixar should make Toy Story 5-9

But back on topic. I'd take either 2D anime (like the Doomfist animation or fron Genesis)

Or the 3D style from Clone Wars/Bad Batch

[brittle sky]

it's a hypothetical on should, eliminating the in house style is an artificial constraint

they're already hiring a new team to do this, they can hire back people or hire on a team that can imitate that style.

[past copper]

Either that. Or since they're taking on a Talon controlled tone. Why not the new animation style that's being used in Maul: Shadow Lord

[peak escarp]

I don't think they should copy the style of another studio

[brittle sky]

i... you're just saying multiple versions of 'they should imitate the signature style of a different distinctive franchise'

[past copper]

I just mean what that style uses is a blend of CGI and the artistic, painterly aesthetic of Japanese art

It makes the animation darker and more fluid

Something to fit the Talon theme going into the game

[peak escarp]

I'd rather have a light/bright animation style, to match the optimism of Overwatch

[brittle sky]

weird you're not comparing that to fortiche or something, which is a much more distinctive and beloved version of the style then.

[past copper]

Brighter might be a stretch

With whatever is coming for Talon and Vendetta, I can see things getting darker

[brittle sky]

I mean, would be weird for a marketing stunt of what's probably either a single plot point or a one season theme to dictate the art style of a series I'd imagine they'd want to run for multiple years

[peak escarp]

this is just one arc

the series would still be focused on Overwatch

[past copper]

True. But it really depends on what Vendetta plans to do with Talon and Doomfist

Given how she is, I can definitely see her attacking Overwatch after taking over Talon. Dealing with any loose ends so to speak

Not making the same mistakes as her father or Doomfist

[peak escarp]

and Overwatch would win in the end because they're the heroes

[brittle sky]

the mistake of her father of... attacking overwatch?

[peak escarp]

and the story is about the heroes, not the villains

[brittle sky]

Or of doomfist of... going against overwatch head on and getting arrested?

[past copper]

Antonio made the mistake in thinking he's get away with his actions in bombing their base

[wise grotto]

And the allies he made
His biggest mistakes was the allies he had picked him dry once he died immediately

[brittle sky]

More seriously, talon hitting overwatch where they live feels like something you do to ramp up a season 3 to up the stakes once the heroes have gotten comfortable and fans have a standard to shatter. Neo ow barely got halfway through a season 1 of reorganizing to deal with the null crisis. This would be shattering a status quo we haven't even established properly, without any discernable stakes. Like even if ow's base got hit... okay? There's not like a loss of a financial or resource base, neo-ow is really just a bunch of overwatch alumns and a few new recruits all agreeing to pitch in and do stuff. They don't even have legal legitimacy yet. Narratively, it's shaking up a formula that's not even established.

[past copper]

Doomfist made the mistake in pushing Vendetta out and keeping her from taking on her father's mantle. A mistake that might cost him his life

[brittle sky]

Again, lot of personalizing on doomfist. Akande is pretty dubious as being the guy choosing that. She got her nepotism claim denied in a matter of days, right at his funeral. He didn't even rise to power until he killed the scourge sometime in the post Antonio shakeup.

[wise grotto]

Doomfist wasn’t in power of talon when he died

[past copper]

The only reason she might keep him would be to make Doomfist watch her succeed in leading Talon where he had failed or to keep him on for his strength and strategic mind. It would be a waste to kill him. But also a threat every minute he breathes

[past copper]

True. But he had many chances to approach her. Much like he did with Mauga, Max, and Gabriel

[brittle sky]

Also 'your mistake was not respecting the hereditary claim of a teenager trying to claim a position in a markedly cutthroat meritocratic organization by right of heredity'

[past copper]

Akande would have seen her potential at some point or another, but he never offered her an opportunity to join their ranks

Honestly, the real question there is why. Did he fear her potential or fear her presence would disrupt his newly designed Talon hierarchy?

[peak escarp]

he probably didn't see her potential

she was just Antonio's spoiled daughter

[past copper]

I mean, this is Akande we're talking about

[brittle sky]

And like, doing good in arena sports does not make a good talon member. I'm sure she'll reality distortion her way into a successful coup for the story and all that, but the one time she tried a real talon thing was to send goons to vaguely take over talon after df got arrested, then sit around drinking wine until they came back as failures.

[past copper]

Akande would keep a close eye on potential players in his game. To either use them or take them out

Much like he's doing with Sombra and Ramattra respectfully

[brittle sky]

take them out... he gave ramattra a blank check, the way the pve was aborted puts the narrative in a way where it went about as perectly as akande would have wanted

[past copper]

And Max. I forgot about him. I think it's a certainty Akande is finished with him

What that means for Max is more than likely... deadly

[peak escarp]

you say that like Akande sponsors every prodigy he comes across

[azure flint]

doctor six must be very happy with the recent activity in this channel

[peak escarp]

and Marzia wasn't a prodigy - she didn't have potential

she built herself into a weapon

[past copper]

Not saying he does. Just that to him, everybody is just a means to an end

That's probably the only reason he even keeps Sombra or even the loose cannon that is Mauga

[peak escarp]

also I recognize the irony in me saying this when Akande literally did sponsor a prodigy when he nominated Efi for the Adawe Grant

[past copper]

Their skills are valuable to him until they outlive their usefulness

[past copper]

More ironic is that he funded his personal counter

[brittle sky]

I think part of the reason Vendetta, as likely as she is going to have a coup plot that succeeds or whatever, isn't convincing is she fundamentally fails the (often overused, but fundamentally true) adage of 'show instead of just tell'. The narrative is telling us over and over she's a big scary new thing, but it's not willing to show that in a way that risks anything narratively. She destroys a big nameless robot in her hero cinematic, then in her comic she kidnaps and kills a nameless talon councilor - both of which are things introduced and immediately destroyed. Those don't land as stakes, because they're hypothetical, introduced and immediately removed.

Compare that to DF, who we've seen do clear schemes that pay off for huge devastation, when we see him fighting (in a fight he loses) we see him brutally take down several well established powerful characters (he wrecked the series poster girl). We see him roll with adversity. He loses plenty (he's a villain), but how he handles challenge and achievement is projecting his power, wits, and confidence. He doesn't have to insist on himself. Vendetta is doing just that, and that would be fine, if the narrative wasn't doing the same thing, and expecting us to buy into it.

[peak escarp]

Vendetta hasn't even done anything yet and I'm already tired of her

[brittle sky]

This isn't a new problem exactly - for all his posturing Reaper's kill count is effectively 0 outside goons, and their unwillingness to give a name to a single overwatch agent he took out in his whole 'reaping' is so wild it led to various conspiracies that he's faking being evil to infiltrate talon. You need to give real stakes to make us feel like actions land and speak for themselves.

[past copper]

I mean, so far there have been high stakes in the story

No matter how you look at it, new Overwatch hasn't teally won yet

They tried to protect the subjugated omnics from Ramattra and have thusly failed

Now whatever will happen with Talon, Overwatch might fail to stop when/if they face them in some way starting in S21

I'm starting to think the high stakes here will be with these kind of failures, people might begin rethinking the need for Overwatch once again

At least, that's how it felt from the Sojourn interview short

[shrewd pivot]

I find the discussions interesting here!
I personally don't think Doomfist was playing 4d chess or anything, Vendetta is yeah... just Antonio's daughter. I don't think Doomfist "fears her potential" or anything.

And the way Doomfist funded Efi, I find that a good example of Doomfist propping up what he finds to be "excellence", that he truely does believe in his philosophy despite that philosophy being obviously villainous.

[shrewd pivot]

Fully agree.

[shrewd pivot]

Also agreed...

[young dragon]

Doomfist likes a challenge and ambition in his people. But unlike his fight with Mauga, he’s not going to tie. He’ll lose. And unlike his fight against Winston, Genji, and Tracer, he won’t just be jailed. He’ll be injured and seemingly humiliated.

Which is fine. He’s been too secure for too long.

[soft carbon]

I heard that "devastation" in DF's voice lmao

[young dragon]

I wonder when Sanjay is going to factor into things. In an organization that values chaos, seeing an ordinary-looking Coucil Member who leads an Indian megacorp obsessed with order is strange and makes me consider what his role in the future will be.

[brittle sky]

Sanjay is, best we can tell, a middling manager at Vishkar, not its CEO

[young dragon]

Indeed. He's not part of the board, but seems to be a manager/upper manager.

Which makes me wonder if he either acts on their behest or on his own. He's a mystery, but we know he's somewhat immoral considering what he authorized in Brazil.

[keen summit]

My take is that to create a perfect world imperfections must be rid of, so dooms war us perfect cuz all the imperfect would be weeded out after which vishkar can come save the day

Im more curious if its sanjay or vishkar as a whole

Issue with vendetta taking over is that that in any normal story would be the end of her story, because that is her goal

[cedar shuttle]

Rightttttt I couldn't remember if those were the same thing or not hence the ¿?

[keen summit]

Very different

I dont think aatlis has any relevant things tho

[azure flint]

remember when they updated the meka map to add some text or wtv talking abt someone being stationed somewhere

what was that abt

[keen summit]

No clue

Didnt know that happened

Couldn't it just be dva tho? Now being at overwatch instead

[azure flint]

nah cuz i remember it was redacted

pretty sure

here we go this is what i was talking abt

[keen summit]

Ohhh

Yeah no clue

[lyric chasm]

Aurora seems to be loved there especially. And in Declassified they mention Helix having plans in Morocco. I don't know if there's any clues in the map itself tho.

[shrewd pivot]

Ramattra's voice line might hint at the fact Vishkar swoops in to rebuild areas after devastation caused by Talon activities. Vishkar probably profits from an easy way to look like a hero coming in to rebuild areas

[lyric chasm]

Symmetra confirms this iirc

[young dragon]

Considering what they did in Brazil, this seems likey. The same thing almost happened in the Sym and Zen story.

Basically Vishkar either causes or takes advantage of destructive opportunities to further expand their territory and land ownership.

[native agate]

vendetta killed doom ?

[young dragon]

No. Some people are hyping that up and making it almost a meme. But it does seem like she humiliates him and dismembers his arm.

[fierce moon]

why redact the cake options :(

[ripe cloud]

maybe it has something to do with black forest? since it's a map?

I dunno

[shrewd pivot]

My guess is that maybe it's a cultural flavor option or already revealed prior lore preference, that could reveal identity?
But it's very funny to redact what cake flavors lol so it's probably for a joke

[shrewd pivot]

Actually wait wait I think I know why I am so confused by the blackwatch genji thing.

After the Venice incident, Blackwatch was revealed to the world, which was the start of overwatch's fall. Genji was still Blackwatch Genji (as in, still mentally unwell) when the Venice incident occured.

Can someone tell me how many years after the Venice incident did it take for og overwatch to be disbanded?

Because if the Venice incident was 8 years ago in ow1, I think Chu confirmed overwatch disbanded around 5 years ago in ow1?

[peak escarp]

correct

[shrewd pivot]

Hm ok. I can't imagine Genji found peace within just a few months after the Venice incident? That's like, full life trauma. A lot to work through.

Ig I will have to look at when and where the Genji x Mercy moments occured to make a final statement. If it was right at the end of overwatch before being disbanded, it's not nearly as bad as if it occured like... less than a year after the Venice incident.

Also peep that concept Freja design at 1:24! (Atleast, I think? It's the same pose as another art but looks a bit different? It's blurry so idk)
https://youtu.be/IYsAssECbR4?si=RBCR6LY-LRUtXakR

I can't add a screencap of it to this channel, but it's right below Reaper's gun.

It... looks like her design had fur trim and not bare thighs? I think? I can't tell. I am on mobile but if someone can pull a higher def PC screencap maybe we can determine.

[ripe cloud]

zen is just that good

[shrewd pivot]

Bahaha yeah Zenyatta is pretty goated tbf.
Idk tho, even with Zenyatta and Symmetra it's more of a slow healing process.

[azure flint]

need a comic abt genji meeting zen

like him going from blackwatch genji to ow2 genji

[shrewd pivot]

We also need that canceled PVE mission 😔 🙏

Waiting nearly a decade to get Zenyatta lore only for his newly introduced bro to get more lore than Zen and having the Zenyatta cinematics canned hurts. Oof

But I agree, I would like to see bits of how the interactions with Genji helped inspire Zenyatta to become a traveling guru, and what kind of place Genji's headspace was in, how he reconciled with things.

[azure flint]

even a comic of him being saved by mercy and getting taken in by ow

js need a genji comic in general

[ripe cloud]

https://ibb.co/k2FKYtRY
this is 100% how it happened

[fossil wren]

Spotlight in 8 days

[lyric chasm]

if anything pve related id rather its something completely new than recycling whats been made in the past especially after revelations that they didnt know how to make pve interesting

[fossil wren]

Overwatch 3

😱

[edgy tree]

what do you mean I loved fighting against their uh 3 enemies spammed..... a LOT with a miniboss in between that were only difficult to deal with when most of them could 3 tap you I did kinda like the fact you could "neutralize" them by shooting specific parts like guns but at the same it did kinda negate any pressure they could put on you

[lyric chasm]

surely there were ways to make this interesting

by my very educated guess as a non developer /s

[edgy tree]

they could've actually introduced the chain effects like they showed in the trailers

like if u shot the head off the bot would wildly spin around shooting non stop hitting everyone

even their teammates

in the actual game it straight up did nothing they still walked and shot at you like they did before

they could've also made more than 3 common enemies

or even re-introduced guys like the Eradicator

[lyric chasm]

i wonder if the reason they struggled so much to make something interesting is because they wanted to open the missions to all the roster

when they could've just locked it to certain characters and then adapt the abilities and power to that specific roster

idk, im taking guesses, i have no clue what the real issues were

[edgy tree]

I'm preety sure it was it

trying to make stuff available to everyone heavily limited their creativity

like they coudn't make a less grounded mission because that would only leave like what? 4 heroes (back then)

and even when they forced a specific type of hero to be picked all they did with them is "x hero needs to press x button"

that's why I really don't buy into things with huge promises sure sometimes the game does release and it's good like Hytale but more often than not you just end up being dissapointed

and there's nothing worse than a game just failing it's playerbase like that overwatch is still trying to climb back up from that

[lyric chasm]

if that's the case it's a shame

it couldve been interesting to have more archives missions with different reduced rosters but I understand it takes time to create those, and it wouldnt have been viable

[shrewd pivot]

Even then, the main set up of PVE mission gameplay was rather boring. Mostly sit and shoot. I didn't find the fact nulltroopers were destructable that "revolutionary" either considering older games like Lost Planet 2 in 2010 had some very fun PVE moments with destructable enemies that felt x100 more satisfying to shred than ow2 PVE. Overwatch PVE wasn't all that dynamic.

I personally am sad we lost "hero missions" because that would have been a personal mission for each hero, a great way to introduce new players to the mechanics and lore of heroes.

[merry mason]

That’s not what hero missions were

[shrewd pivot]

It was an individual mission for each hero, no? Hero missions were one of the first scrapped things iirc

[opaque tundra]

I think it was just randomized PvE missions for fun

[shrewd pivot]

Really? Huh. Ok
I know there was discussion of modifiers for missions being changed over time or something like that.

Goodness where am I remembering that from, I just checked the wiki.

Pardon me! I am fully incorrect, thank you for correcting me.

https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/Hero_Missions

[peak escarp]

Hero Mastery should have been a tutorial for each hero that explained their mechanics and taught advanced techs

instead it was a scoreboard challenge

[azure flint]

true

no real mastery js speedrunning

[fierce moon]

i loved the speedrunning tbh, but yeah if you weren't interested in that it was kinda meh

[fierce moon]

I just thought it was funny but those are actually good points lol, maybe

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed

[jaunty oar]

fear 2 did this like 11 years ago im sure its possible

[edgy tree]

tbh you were mastering something...... the stage

[azure flint]

map mastery

[past copper]

Be honest, which Talon emblem is your favorite?

Personally, like the new one. Looks way more evil than the original

[brittle sky]

In a vacuum, second looks cooler. In context, it implies vendetta is taking the multifaceted multi purpose org and just... making it about her.

[edgy tree]

I like it when logos gain some complexity

[keen summit]

I like the new one, it looks more agressive

Fitting vendetta

[surreal jewel]

New one, ‘cause reaper.

[merry mason]

With the New one I feel like I don’t know where I should be looking

[fossil wren]

The original was simpler, I honestly really like the redesign

[shrewd pivot]

https://youtu.be/suqIekAIvH4?si=bxnIdGUM0-FEhqkm

NEW LOREEE

[plucky yew]

OMG

[shrewd pivot]

Widowmaker relying on medicine to keep her sharp/forget bad memories is new lore i think. Like we specifically now know its drugs and not like, brainwashing or something

[plucky yew]

did we always know that vishkar directly worked for talon

[shrewd pivot]

Yes

[lyric saffron]

YES

[shrewd pivot]

Sanjay was at the table, Sanjay is Symmetra's boss iirc, works for Vishkar

[plucky yew]

ahh

[lyric saffron]

DO YALL THINK MOIRA AND WIDOW WILL LIKELY GO WITH VENDETTA EASILY DUE TO THE EASY CONDTIONS

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Moira follows money

And Widowmaker follows the drug supply lol

[fallow mantle]

The new story 🔥

[lyric saffron]

this is going my way perfectly

[plucky yew]

i want more sombra lore

[shrewd pivot]

Reaper is someone she might have to like... idk im expecting Vendetta will threaten to kill Reapers family if he doesn't server her.

[shrewd pivot]

Emre is related to the eye conspiracy, the same eye conspiracy Sombra bumped into and was forced to go into hiding over. Sombra is trying to uncover more about the eye conspiracy

[plucky yew]

2 more animations before the new season, this is going crazy

[shrewd pivot]

I feel like Mauga would probably side with Vendetta as well tbh?

He is cunning, so he might play aloof to go under her radar but idk Vendetta might see through Mauga's bluff of ignorance

Also it's very funny to me Vendetta is like "I only spared you so you can serve me"

That implies once Maximilien helps Vendetta usurp Doomfist, Maximilien has much less value to Vendetta alive unless he really amps up his usefulness to her.

Lmafo Maximilien cannot catch a break. It would not suprise me if one day he feels forced to flee and then leaks all the Talon information to overwatch.

Also Maximilien's casino chip being an actual chip lmafo

[plucky yew]

ur right i didnt even notice

[fallow mantle]

I love how Maximilien's Pocket King story was basically him being like "oh my god I have to get out of here" and now he's like "oh my god I have to get back up"

[shrewd pivot]

LOLLL yeah

Don't worry guys Maximilien cannot die yet he has plot armor in the form of Maximilien vault. Can't kill the deal maker! /half joking (it's actually a reasonable excuse to keep him alive otherwise the vault doesn't make as much sense to have)

[brittle sky]

I mean, reading the short story version it implies max may have orchestrated this coup/civil war.

" Finally, the pieces were set, and the real game could begin"

[shrewd pivot]

True!

[median orchid]

New Lore dropped

[shrewd pivot]

I find it really funny Maximilien talks about the cruel and unworthy above him ruling because of luck and the labor of others, yet nepo baby malding Vendetta doesn't pick up on the fact that that's basically her LOL

[hushed jetty]

what do we THINK, chat

[median orchid]

This is pretty big if you ask me

[shrewd pivot]

Like it was very silly of her to threaten Maximilien as only being spared to serve her, because once Maximilien helps her usurp Doomfist, Maximilien being alive becomes much less valuable.

She is one of the cruel and unworthy ruling due to luck and the labor of others lmafo

[median orchid]

||Max has cut a deal with Max to take over talon if i understand this right||

[keen wasp]

can someone give me a one word summary of the new drop

[hushed jetty]

peak

a more accurate word perhaps is "coup"

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah

[keen wasp]

alr thanks

sounds about right for ow lore

[shrewd pivot]

Maximilien at sword point agrees to help Vendetta usurp Doomfist to rule Talon

[severe citrus]

That was awesome I hope we get more readingz like that

[edgy tree]

Moira just works for whoever pays her like Max said so yeah she definitly will just work with anyone sepecially if there's no condition attached like with overwatch

but yeah we can definitly tell Doom ain't just gonna die

[lyric saffron]

im only worried abt widow but i think its fine going this way rn

[edgy tree]

he might get forced out of Talon eventually

[edgy tree]

Moira might be Widows supplier

she does like to keep a close watch on her experiments

[keen summit]

Sp much story stuff lately i am pleased

[shrewd pivot]

Honestly it would be cool if this was all a revenge power play by Maximilien. Like, he was born innocent yet was unfairly oppressed/punished by humanity for actions he/other omnics had as a non sapient warbot. So in revenge, without ever pulling the trigger himself, Maximilien goes on to cause humanity to fight itself into squalor. Huge power play there.

[edgy tree]

yeah if only microsoft didn't screw over the animation side of overwatch

[keen summit]

Eh whatever

Atleast this way people see ut

[edgy tree]

story is cool but man would I have loved to see vendetta just burst into Maxes office

[shrewd pivot]

For sure

[fallow mantle]

So Max is part of the Conspiracy, was my takeaway from that story. I am sick so dumb so if that is not right someone pls correct me lmao

[edgy tree]

esp with how the models get made with much higher detail than in-game the sword would've looked sick

[shrewd pivot]

No eye conspiracy motif shows up though, so no proof Maximilien is connected to the eye conspiracy

[lyric saffron]

[fierce moon]

we're getting our cinematic next week lol

[keen summit]

Ik guessing at spotlight

Spotlight predictions, cinematic, emre reveal

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah considering we probably won't get "Dragons" style cinematics, I hope we get more PVE style cinematics one day, I prefer in game models over the 3d cell shaded stuff like the "La Lupa" cinematic.

[edgy tree]

Nothing is really confirmed atm all we know is hed oesn't really play sides

he just wants to keep his position in Talon even if it means screwing over his old boss

[keen summit]

I mean hecdid it before

Max just wants to keep living and keep in power

[fallow mantle]

I love Max sm

[brittle sky]

(if they're writing well, his speech would be him going 'see, we're the same' to her face, while the double meaning is 'you're another heiress chump I'm manipulating')

[keen summit]

Sadly emre wasnt mentioned

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah exactly, it just is funny how Vendetta doesn't agknowledge it at all lolll

[edgy tree]

Max most likely doesn't really know much about Emre

he just "did" random work for Talon

[summer sigil]

that new cinematic vid or whatever it is was so garbage

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, I get Vendetta's meant to be a wrestler heel "you love to hate her" kind of character but her 'nepo baby malding' deal will never not be funny for the wrong reasons to me lol

[summer sigil]

they spent half their budget on kiriko highlight intros💔💔💔

[edgy tree]

you can't expect much when Microsoft layed off the animation team

[shrewd pivot]

We got new lore tho, like with Widowmaker, so not full garbage imo

[lyric chasm]

nah they didn't

[summer sigil]

microsoft ruin everything bro

[peak escarp]

if you're not going to contribute to the conversation you should keep your thoughts elsewhere

[summer sigil]

um

No:3

[lyric chasm]

one can appreciate the audacity some have talking to mods lol

[shrewd pivot]

It's a lore channel here tbf, better to be on topic

Did you like the new lore?

[edgy tree]

About the token who do you think provided it to max? it has some purple on it so it could've came from Sombra since she's the one all about gathering info

[lyric chasm]

I was waiting on the compromising info on Olivia lmao

but im waiting on whats coming

I need the full picture

[peak escarp]

the short story Pocket King had Max loading data onto something - it was probably this chip

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I wonder what Sombra's thoughts on this will be! Especially with Maximilien recruiting Emre who is obviously connected to the eye conspiracy.

[lyric chasm]

it's implied he has comprimising info on all those presented in the image, so it's probably not gathered up by her

[edgy tree]

oh damn I missed that short

[lyric chasm]

I think Sombra's parted w Talon before hell broke lose (which makes sense with the Lucky Man story)

[peak escarp]

Sombra has always been doing her own thing

[edgy tree]

She wasn't really a "part" of it to begin with

[lyric chasm]

I just think she won't leave Sigma behind

[peak escarp]

she's not loyal to Talon

she'll try to manipulate Vendetta too

[lyric chasm]

yeah but she was more or less keeping close before

[edgy tree]

like all the other powerfull members of Talon she's just working for her own selfish reasons while getting funded by Talon

[lyric chasm]

now that Vendetta is around, and she needs loyalty

idk how shell fare

plus it feels like Sombra is moving on

and doesnt need them anymore

[peak escarp]

I want to see how Vendetta will deal with Reaper, since he was the one who killed her father

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah she didn't like official partner with, but definitely worked with Talon

[edgy tree]

there already were interractions between them

Vendetta said that her father got what he deserved

[quartz rampart]

Doomfist is cooked

That I know for sure

[lyric chasm]

I wouldn't be so sure

[quartz rampart]

Widow being a drug addict is new? Unless I'm forgetting something

[edgy tree]

yeah it is

[quartz rampart]

It's why her skin is still purple right

[edgy tree]

preety sure that's just a side effect of being a colleague of Moira

[quartz rampart]

Vishkar? Is he from symetras company

[lyric chasm]

nah its her heart and bloodsupply that makes it turn blue

[quartz rampart]

Ah, the drugs keep her from remembering she killed her lover than

And all the other shit she did as a sleeper agent

[shrewd pivot]

Same!!! I wonder if it's even possible to kill Reaper in his current state? Like my guess is that if Reaper cannot be killed maybe he could be imprisoned, (but that doesn't seem as exciting), OR have his family threatened as blackmail to keep him in line serving Vendetta. I can't really see Vendetta letting Reaper off the hook for her father's murder, Reaper would be blackmailed or punished in some way.

[edgy tree]

She did it conciously remembers it all

that's why she's taking drugs now to forget it ig

[static basin]

all the new cinematics are garbage imo

[edgy tree]

She said her father got what he deserved in game so it seems like she didn't really despise him for it

[quartz rampart]

I don't think despite her beef with reaper, she won't kill him

He's too good at his job to be rid off

[edgy tree]

her Vengeance mainly came because they took all that was rightfully hers

[shrewd pivot]

Usual mafia rules have it so that even a slight disrespect ends up in bloodlines being deleted. I would be VERY shocked if Vendetta doesn't punish/threaten Reaper in some way.

[edgy tree]

she might do that but won't try to kill him

[quartz rampart]

This is a teaser for the new season cinematic

[edgy tree]

if he even can die with the turning into dust at will thing

[quartz rampart]

We're getting top dollar 100%

[quartz rampart]

Oh she will fight him. Just so that the hierarchy is clear

[merry mason]

Viskar is the company name

[edgy tree]

The first seasons of the year are said to alvays be major game changers in a way

[quartz rampart]

Wait the whole company has a seat at talon?

[edgy tree]

just the boss

Who sym works for

[shrewd pivot]

It's more like lore bites imo?
It's similar to some of the old Twitter posts like the Maximilien interviews and Blackwatch interviews that were just audio logs

[quartz rampart]

Ahh, so the ceo

[edgy tree]

Viskar most likely benefits from it all though

[quartz rampart]

The previous CEO got killed in a car crash a year before it was publicly bought

100% the new guy did it

Then joined the talon council

[edgy tree]

bet he was a part of Talon beforehand

[quartz rampart]

Yup

[edgy tree]

It happens a lot where people of high status take over other organizations from the inside

[quartz rampart]

Vendetta will probably ask about upgrades for her hard light weapon

[lyric chasm]

its weird because I think Amélie likes what she does. But maybe she'd have wanted Gérard to survive some way.

like she's not brainwashed into liking killing, she just does

[quartz rampart]

She was all smiles assassinating the monk guy

[lyric chasm]

one could think she's being manipulated into doing that

[quartz rampart]

But the PTSD of killing the person you cared about the most is probably bad

[lyric chasm]

but it's her talking imo

[shrewd pivot]

Sanjay has a seat at Talon, who is Symmetra's boss at Vishkar.

Symmetra and Ramattra has a line that indicates Vishkar profits from destruction they can swoop into the rebuild as the "heroes"

The recent lore video outright confirms Viskar misses looking like the hero while making massive profits

[edgy tree]

she found out how the thrill of the hunt feels

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah which idk, it feels like if she was actually brainwashed with her true self fighting it, it would have differed her from Freja more.

Bc both are "thrill of the kill" femme fatales atp

[lyric chasm]

it would definitely take away from her character to say she was brainwashed into it. She's more interesting for having that contradiction at her core

Freja seems different to me

[static basin]

i miss the animated cinematics

[lyric chasm]

Freja has the thrill of the hunt, but she is convinced she's doing or has done good

Widow doesn't lie to herself

she knows she does wrong, and she likes it

she just misses Gérard

[quartz rampart]

Her and emre probably rejoin overwatch with how stacked talon is currently

[lyric chasm]

I hope they don't

they already did that with Mercy, which was nonsensical to me

[quartz rampart]

I mean emre isn't evil

[lyric chasm]

people have principles and they don't change them on a whim

[quartz rampart]

He's like the goodest guy from the og squad

[lyric chasm]

Emre, Freja and Mercy had their grips against OW for reasons

not just "they're the good guys I side w them"

[quartz rampart]

True but new overwatch is led by the goat

Winton

Even genji joined in so mercy coming to help too makes sense

[lyric chasm]

haha, nonetheless OW isn't free from all the geoplotical "red tape"

and maybe Emre and Freja don't want to try again

which I hope they don't

we need other factions or loners

[quartz rampart]

True, pull a soldier 76

[lyric chasm]

even on the "good" or "well meaning side"

[quartz rampart]

And be vigilantes

[shrewd pivot]

Also, Widowmaker being a perfect Ballerina (maybe pressured into it even) being brainwashed into being a femme fatale against her true will, is a subversion of the French film noir femme fatale that demonizes women with sexist writing (most women in the films are either pure ladies OR evil sirens). Plus it portrays commentary on free will which ties into overwatch's free will convos about omnics, systemic issues, etc

But I will accept current canon that implies Widowmaker simply had her serial killer awoken in her, that she chose to join Talon as lore indicates. Still, her sleeper agent brainwashing to me, implies it's more like... a person getting addicted to drugs and crawling back to the supplier.

[lyric chasm]

there's too mny vigilantes

imo Cassidy only just wanted to rejoin OW2 because that dude is LOST lost in life

but it's clear he isn't even convinced of his own place there

even though he joined again

that man is the definition of just going with the flow

but not for funsies, just because he's lost

and yet he knows first hand how much harm was caused by OW/BW and how its going to be difficult to have the organization be accepted again

[quartz rampart]

Null sector is pretty bad currently

[lyric chasm]

I need to listen to Sojourn's speech again because I don't remember how she defended their existence

[quartz rampart]

Basically omnic crisis 2.0

[shrewd pivot]

I mean? His name change lore arc implied he was tired of 'running into the sunset' that he wanted to face who he was and try to settle down and stop running away for once

[pure shoal]

ok so who is vishkar?

[quartz rampart]

The company

Sanjay himself is their talon connection

[fierce moon]

John Vishkar, newest hero coming next season

[quartz rampart]

Since he has a spot on the council

[pure shoal]

ooooh... of what

[shrewd pivot]

The company Symmetra works for, they own hard light technology that is used to rebuild cities etc

[pure shoal]

OOOH

[quartz rampart]

Yeah talon does terrorism, vishkar swoops in

Fixes shit

Gets paid

[pure shoal]

Ooooh shit thats cool

Im so glad that this season might be all talon lore

but im still pissed they never finished the main lore

[quartz rampart]

Doom fist has the entire group in a death spiral

[lyric chasm]

he's an alcoholic that jumps from opportunity or dead end to another, even tho he speaks about that "running off into the sunset" (just liek Ashe), his actions don't follow. In his voiceline with Doomfist he says that joining OW2 was his alternative to being passed out in random bars (and joking Talon is his 3rd option)

obviously interactions arent necessarily canon, but sometimes they convey ideas or dynamics

that's Cassidy's

[quartz rampart]

He saved echo for that reason too

At his heart he still wants to help

[lyric chasm]

I think he does, but he always feels out of place

he likes to help but her prefers others to be doing the good

that's conjecture on my part

[pale valve]

Who in the lore can actually beat Vendetta in a 1v1?

[shrewd pivot]

His comic did show he was trying to be better tho
And his story with recruiting Baptiste was pretty meaningful imo

[fierce moon]

no one #vivalalupa

[shrewd pivot]

More like lowkey #RamattraWasRight

[fierce moon]

ramattra is a fraudulent bum unfortunately

[lyric chasm]

in the missions reports he asks to be buried with his gun or something. To me he's still pretty much passive and ready to die doing something (good at least)

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, which is incredibly Spaghetti Western cowboy of him haha

[lyric chasm]

haha damn well it is

I think one interesting way his story could've gone is him parting from OW and joining Talon or the Conspiracy or something but to fix things, tbf that sounds like Reaper, but idk

I have lots of thoughts about that man

[lyric chasm]

he wasn't done justice

[pale valve]

I kinda agree unfortunately

Ramattra's design and personality are sick asl but he is VERY hypocritical

Also he keeps losing lmao, even Orisa flames him for it in one of their interactions

[lyric chasm]

that's kind of the thing with such extremist archetypes

but it wasn't doing justice to him

he should have never been presented as a hypocrite

never haved kidnapped those omnics

[shrewd pivot]

Awakened omnics are a finite generation being poached into extinction by humanity.
Ramattra has actually atleast succeeded in preventing omnic extinction, as subjugation helmeted omnics were not killed and had thier minds preserved for later release onto earth. Ramattra plans to wait out whatever catastrophic war Vendetta is bringing, basically letting humanity take itself out. Only then, when humanity goes extinct, will Ramattra release omnics back onto earth to live free from human oppression.

[lyric chasm]

and he just should have been defeated

[pale valve]

Yeah putting helmets on the omnics is crazy work, literally forcing them to conform to his ideology

[lyric chasm]

because he was right in some way, and to me it's kinda lazy storytelling (or lack of time or space to do it) to be having him be wrong

[fierce moon]

doom, then ram, then doom again, they just cant stop losing

[lyric chasm]

it was unnecessary. Have him be defeated, have omnics join him willingly.

[shrewd pivot]

It wasn't brainwashing, it was putting them into storage. His evil was not giving those omnics the choice to either choose to join his long Hibernation or live thier lives with humanity

[lyric chasm]

its taking away their free will nonetheless

[pale valve]

Imagine humans start going extinct and some extremist human takes you away from your non human family, kills them, and then forces you to stay unconscious until he gets the world he decided was better for you

Autocorrect doing it again

[fierce moon]

what'll he do when that doesn't happen though? and why doesn't anyone care enough to rescue the subjugated omnics anymore? i kinda forgot the reason overwatch gave ill have to reread soj's speech

[shrewd pivot]

He plans to release thier minds eventually, he took away a choice but thier sapient minds that have free will are still preserved

[lyric chasm]

as Abyssal put it, it's unfair and hypocritical nonetheless

its such a shame because you could just have had some omnics be convinced, and join him

would've done the job

[shrewd pivot]

More like, imagine if a critically endangered species has all its males killed by poachers so only females remain making the species functionally extinct, so a person choses to capture all the females from the wild to have them live in a safe facility to avoid poachers killing any more of the species.

Ie, what humanity already does with functionally extinct animals, like the Northern white rhinos, only two females remain in a safe facility and are currently being guarded with force to fight off poachers.

I see Ramattra as protecting a functionally extinct species, it just so happens that species is his people. It's not pretty, war and death happens to achieve his goals, but I honestly can't blame an awakened omnic trying to stop the genocide of his people. Humanity was killing off awakened omnics in canon.

It circles back to stories like Hammond's heroes ascendant story. It explores free will, sapience, and how people are just trying to survive.

Notably, Ramattra does NOT agree with Anubis. He thinks humanity should have destroyed Anubis.

[lyric chasm]

The thing is that what Ramattra and Null Sector blame on humanity is their mistreatment of their kind. All that to turn on omnickind when they express their own free will to keep living amongst humanity.

that's the hypocritical part, no matter how well he means it

[shrewd pivot]

Would you let a critically endangered species live in the wild around poachers, or would you capture them to start a breeding program/atleast live in a safe facility?

[lyric chasm]

would you take away the will and bodily autonomy of your entire in-group just in an attempt to protect them? That still makes you someone who takes away their free will and autonomy

[shrewd pivot]

Humanity is generational. There is no guarantee places like Numbani would stay as a safe haven for Omnics indefinitely.

[lyric chasm]

no all omnickind was suffering at the hands of humans

[lyric chasm]

we have no certainty of what he has done to them with the subjugators. And the simple fact that he did it in spite of their own desires puts him at the same level as humans who have mistreated omnickind

the problem isn't wanting to safeguard them, the problem is doing it to them even though they never consented to it

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah and that's the compelling part of his writing! He is a freedom fighter radicalized after TRYING pacifism, TRYING dogmatic approaches. Both Ramattra AND Zenyatta disagree with Mondatta's dogmatic pacifistic approaches. They both use force to achieve goals, Zenyatta is not a pacifist.

It's that Ramattra has lost hope in humanity, while Zenyatta has not. They are two sides of the safe philosophy coin. One is pessimistic on humanity omnic unity. One is optumistic on human omnic unity.

[lyric chasm]

Ramattra did not need to become hypocritical to have his point stand

I don't like the trope of undermining the radical/rebel type with hypocrisy

it's poor writing, it's saying "we're wrong but so are you"

which didn't have to be

Ramattra could've remained radicalized, and radicalized a few more, and be beaten. His principles and actions would remain pure and still a question to ask humanity and omnickind

[shrewd pivot]

Again, the critically endangered animals captured from the wild did not consent to being put into facilities either.

Ramattra was forced to make an impossible choice: from his view he could sit and watch as omnics were killed off one by one into extinction, OR he could fight at the CHANCE he could prevent omnic extinction. The codex and other texts implies Ramattra sees sapiemce as a curse and that he is ||suicidal||(Atleast, Genji makes this assertion about the creator of the reckless nulltroopers), but instead of killing omnics to revert them into warbots, Ramattra has decided to be the martyr figure that sacrifices so much to ensure a future free from human oppression for his people. He IS willing to die to ensure his people have a future.

[placid cradle]

Quick lore question about genji if anyone can answer. What’s going on Israel right now?

[lyric chasm]

animals aren't sentient. Omnics are. He took away their freedom, whether he meant good or not.

once again, what you're saying is right, but the bottom line is, he blamed humanity for something he then did

and the story didn't really convey well that omnics were drawn to extinction

neither that it was a bad thing to all omnics

[shrewd pivot]

Fully agree. Imo if nulltroopers only fired once fired upon, and did not harm children/animals whatsoever, it would have much better reflected Ramattra's ideals.

[shrewd pivot]

Irl animals absolutely are sentient???? Many are sapient too!
Dolphins, Ravens, octopus, Chimpanzees, etc are sentient AND sapient AND more intelligent than baby humans.

[lyric chasm]

what I mean by sentient is thinking the way we do.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of neuroscience and philosophy here

point is in OW, there's only three categories that have been deemed sentient (thinking like humans), it's humans, omnics/aurora and the animals like Winston/Hammond

and the entire debate Ram is having is about that, safeguarding his kind that can think and feel and experience harm the way humanity does

[shrewd pivot]

"Sentience" is being aware of self vs enviorment, like a dandelion is not sentient but a jumping spider is.

"Sapience" is an understanding of self, an emotional understanding that things are not the same as you. An Elephant is sapient, it has empathy and mourns the dead.

Adult humans are the most intelligent sapient beings.

Im a scifi nerd so I enjoy explorations of these concepts, it matters to distinguish imo!

[shrewd pivot]

I agree. I think Ramattra denying his people the choice is an evil.

At the same time, I can't blame him for trying to prevent the genocide of his people. He views omnics following Mondatta's teachings as lambs being lead to slaughter. It's impossible to kindly ask an oppressor to stop killing your people.

[lyric chasm]

I'm not a native English speaker, so I use terms that are more commonly used for such things. I don't think most people know the difference, and for most, "sentience" means what "sapience" actually conveys.

[lyric chasm]

to me it's another instance of making the radical/extremist a bad guy and I find it to be a shame.

[shrewd pivot]

Yes, overwatch often uses "sentience" when it actually means "sapience"

But to say humans are only "sentient" is very problematic. Humans are not insects, they carry complex emotions and understanding far beyond sentient animals.

[shrewd pivot]

I agree. I think it was botched writing in lore.

Unfortunately, many series end up demonizing freedom fighters fighting genocide in writing. :(

[lyric chasm]

it's a real stain on the story imo

[shrewd pivot]

I agree

That is why I was so motivated to do a ow rewrite one day, because I find Ramattra's story so compelling, but badly done in final writing execution.

[edgy tree]

not sure why he would join Talon tbh

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I feel like after everything Cassidy has been through, Cassidy would not side with Talon tbf

[lyric chasm]

not by ideals but to use them

but that would be too much of a strategic move

it's out of character

i mean, he is probably strategic

[shrewd pivot]

I don't think Cassidy would want to involve himself with Talon after his experience with deadlock and blackwatch

[shrewd pivot]

Very much so, between Cassidy and Baptiste, those two have great strategic understanding and intel

[lyric chasm]

I think there's a darkness in him that could've been used to take his story in alternative paths

he may have been young, but what they did in Deadlock wasn't something he had been a passive observer to

to some extent he was fine with BW too

[shrewd pivot]

Cassidy represents the sombre Spaghetti western cowboy. An outlaw, but not a super corrupt 'black hat'(villain cowboy in those movies)

He can still be a hero even if complex

[lyric chasm]

I mean in the hypothetical situation he would've joined Talon or whatever else

he'd have done it for justice nonetheless

or some personal sense of good

he's still described as someone that can be violent and efficient when he needs to

[shrewd pivot]

I think Ashe better represents the darker side to walk in Spaghetti westerns. She's the "a woman scorned" / "hag leader of a family gang" (Ashe is not a hag, it's a writing trope haha)

[lyric chasm]

I like the idea that they both were "ill intentioned", it's just that Cass wanted to settle down and Ashe wanted more

[shrewd pivot]

Same could be said for Baptiste tbh

[lyric chasm]

and Cassidy seems to struggle to part with things and people

even if it doesn't fit him anymore

[shrewd pivot]

I see the vision there.

Honestly it's the opposite in canon. Ashe wanted the deadlock gang to stay together. Cassidy left the gang for a better opportunity at Blackwatch

[lyric chasm]

Baptiste has more redemptive aspects going for him (or maybe it's just the medical status and several doctorates that are influencing me who knows)

[shrewd pivot]

Yep! Baptiste is a story about breaking the cycle of violence. But he still uses his Talon training, it's just as intel for Overwatch.

[lyric chasm]

I really need to reexplore that because it feels like he really didn't have a say in joining BW (or jail)

that or jail

[edgy tree]

wasn't it "join overwatch" or "jail"

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Reyes gave Cassidy the option to rot in jail, or join Blackwatch.

[pale valve]

Had a whole hour long class and yall are still here that's crazy

Also ashe has to be the pettiest character in the game lmao

[edgy tree]

him returning to Overwatch was his choise though

[shrewd pivot]

The deadlock gang has gotten out of jail before though, so really it was Reyes giving Cassidy the option to be more than a deadlock gang member at Blackwatch, or rot in jail waiting for deadlock attempts to get Cassidy out if possible.

Still, very much a threat from Reyes lol

[pale valve]

Well overwatch's jail SUCKS so there's that

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah

[pale valve]

Doomfist literally just punched through the wall lmao

With his bare hands

[shrewd pivot]

What dambe does to a guy. (Joking aside, I think it was only bc Talon helped him escape iirc that he went for it)

[ripe sequoia]

I’m pretty sure it was a Helix prison not Overwatch’s

[pale valve]

True

[edgy tree]

he did get help from Talon I'm preety sure

[pale valve]

No he literally just punched the wall until it broke, maybe they helped him afterwards tho

[edgy tree]

yeah it was Helix Securities maximum "security" prison

they gotta change the name of it

[lyric chasm]

Then again maybe he still willingly chose BW because he and Ashe knew they could attempt to break him out of jail. And that may be why she's mad, because they both know implicitly that he chose the option that wouldn't allow him to come back.

[edgy tree]

Reaper led the assault on the facility to free him

[pale valve]

Far enough into the future to create a device that can travel through time but they still use concrete in prisons

[lyric chasm]

but I remember an interaction w Ana where she said she 'saw' he 'felt stuck there'

idk if she meant Deadlock or BW

[pale valve]

Probably BW right? I feel like he enjoyed his time with the deadlock gang

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Ashe's short novel recontextualized the "rot in jail or join Blackwatch" offer Reyes gave, into "just be a deadbeat deadlock member or do something with your life and join Blackwatch"

[lyric chasm]

not enough to stay it seems

[pale valve]

He always says "things were a lot simpler when I was robbing banks with the deadlock gang"

I don't know if that's nostalgia or longing though

[lyric chasm]

nostalgia is a hell of a drug

[pale valve]

But he was sorta forced to leave I assume, and I'm sure his morals got to him

[lyric chasm]

he's fantsizing a time when he had control (retrospectively)

[edgy tree]

taking down trains is a bit less.... stressful than having to help stop an invasion

[pale valve]

Well there's no doubt he still liked Ashe and the rest of the gang, since they were kinda like his family

[lyric chasm]

I think that's it. His moral compass is a tad stronger than Ashe's

or those of the other gang members

[lyric chasm]

most of his recent interactions imply he still does, but that they all have moved on

[pale valve]

Yeah, Ashe just wants to be a rebel, joining something like overwatch would go against her whole ideology

Actually that reminds me

[shrewd pivot]

They also recontextualized Reyes' offer to Genji from "die here or help us take down the Shimada clan by joining Blackwatch" as it was assumed Reyes made the offer to Genji on the spot Hanzo attacked him

To later confirming that mercy saved Genji, then genji in the hospital agreed to join Blackwatch and being cybernetized.

[lyric chasm]

generally speaking, she doesn't seem to care about ideology

[ripe sequoia]

OW were after the Shimada’s?! That makes a lot more sense with the cass and 76 interaction about Hanamura

[lyric chasm]

what bugs me more is character like their hacker (Frankie) who was just there to get money and settle down and they ended up following along, only to hate Cass for sticking the original plan

[pale valve]

Why does ashe seem to not care about her bike anymore? She had an old interaction with cass in early ow2 that basically went

"I won't ask again Cassidy, where'd you leave my bike?"

"Not sure you wanna know..."

"If I find even a scratch on it Bob will use you for target practice!"

but more recently they had one that goes

"Hey Ashe, I'm feeling generous today. Think I might remember where I left your bike."

"I don't want it."

"What? You love that bike! You bluffing Ashe?"

"You know me, I don't bluff."

[edgy tree]

She doesn't want him to just give it to her ig or she's finally moving on from their times together in Deadlock

[fossil wren]

So... Widowmaker is an addict

[shrewd pivot]

She wants to stick it to her parents and family business. She is about sabotaging her parents company that she refused inheritance of bc her parents neglected her (BOB was the one to raise her as a teen) bc her parents wanted to use her like a pawn for the company. More than a rebel imo

[ripe sequoia]

I mean it’s an effective way to keep her loyal

[edgy tree]

She regrets that she killed him so she's taking drugs to help her forget

it's preety realistic ngl

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah the Shimada are a gang (Yakuza inspired), and Genji is basically a Yakuza heir kind of character Blackwatch used to take out his own gang.

This created a power vacuum which the Hashimoto overtook, which explains why Kiriko had to step up to defend the people from Hashimoto after Hanzo fled and Genji was presumed dead.

[ripe sequoia]

What’s next for widow?

[edgy tree]

she's most likely just gonna keep working for Talon

it's not like she hates killing

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Widowmaker is on that "take special drugs to forget past/stay sharp as an assassin, go killing, start to remember past, repeat" grind lol

Moira is also just going to side with whoever gives her the most funding for her evil scientist genetics research.

[edgy tree]

I woudn't be surpized if Moira was the one giving Widow her own specialized kind of drug

since she tends to ask her about her current mental state

[ripe sequoia]

You think Sombra could help her? I mean she has a soft spot for Sigma who’s in a very similar position as Widowmaker and Sombra is definitely defecting from Talon to track the conspiracy soon so maybe take Widowmaker with her and maybe give her to mercy or someone else

[shrewd pivot]

Moira does check in on Widowmaker's condition in spawn line voicelines, so it's probably the case Moira has something to do with it, yes.

Moira also works on Reaper in some way, as indicated by voice lines.

She also experiments on sigma it seems too.

[shrewd pivot]

Since canon seems that Widowmaker is actually a serial killer at heart choosing this life, Sombra probably does not feel that way towards Widowmaker.

Sigma is being manipulated by Talon, it's unclear if he was mentally well if he would work for Talon. Sombra sees Sigma as being used and abused by Talon so yeah she does care about his wellbeing.

[edgy tree]

He was doing good work making repulsors widely used

[lyric chasm]

She's tired

[edgy tree]

he's basically the only reason we see floating cars

he made the tech go from big expensive and hard to use to just common everyday stuff

[lyric chasm]

Yeah but she also didn't need to build an entire empire for it.

[shrewd pivot]

Oh I missed this, his comic where he meets to talk with Zenyatta has indicated he did not kill the omnics with subjugation helmets. The subjugation helmets preserve the minds of omnics. Think of it like taking a soul out if the body. The person's mind remains but the body left behind is just a husk now.

[lyric chasm]

I mean she could've settled

[lyric chasm]

Yeah but do we know the results first hand?

[shrewd pivot]

I would be shocked if Ramattra was actually killing omnics minds with the helmets after comic went out of the way to explain how the helmets did not actually kill the omnics minds.

[lyric chasm]

I don't mean I think he's killing them

I mean is he sure of what's going to happen to them

He still took away their bodies

[shrewd pivot]

Sigma was also using the Lunar colony for his gravity experiment, where Hammond made it clear the scientists on that base that created Hammond and the space apes are NOT ethical.

Sigma probably used the lunar base because on the lunar base laws are not the same. His experiment might have been illegal on earth.

Still, that doesn't mean Sigma should be used/abused by Talon

[shrewd pivot]

Yes, he collected the bodies because if a subjugation helmet is improperly removed from a subjugated omnic, it kills the omnic. Ashe's story showed us that improperly removing the helmet kills the omnic body completely.

It is 2 options: he has to collect the helmet+body to secure a life, OR the minds are secured once the helmet works and he simply is collecting bodies so omnics can awaken in thier original bodies later if they want.

[edgy tree]

I mean why would a guy all about harnessing the forces of gravity do stuff to animals?

it's something Moira would rather do

[shrewd pivot]

Going to a space "torture mansion" to do gravity experiments shows he is not ethical haha

[edgy tree]

not all parts of it could be about it or shared to everyone

sure someone like dr.Winston most likely knew about it since he worked with the Gorillas

[shrewd pivot]

The scientists joke openly about the abuse they do. It's globally known that the space station has different laws that ignore things like basic rights. I would be very suprised if Sigma did not have any idea about the immoral laws of the space station, considering he probably did his gravity experiment there because of the laxed laws

[edgy tree]

His stay was mainly there to aid with the installation of advanced low-gravity systems he could have known about things happening there thanks to the doctor

There is just no direct lore indicating Sigma was aware of the violent uprising or the ethical breaches in the experiments his mind was already fractured by his own black hole accident prior to the colony's downfall

[shrewd pivot]

It's not that he needs to know of the specific horrors, it's that the space station is globally recognized as having different laws.

It's like oasis, people know that Oasis has different laws

[edgy tree]

people also know what happens in Oasis

[shrewd pivot]

Like, you don't go into a country or station that has no secure human rights to do experiments without being atleast morally grey

[edgy tree]

the Lunar colony was a bit more discreate about the things they did

[shrewd pivot]

So is Oasis lol

My point is, Sigma is atleast morally grey because of his work on the Lunar colony

He might have thoughr he was doing something helpful with the experiment that failed! But he ignored the obvious red flags to pursue that gravity experiment

[edgy tree]

it is a bit easier to hide stuff on the moon tbh

[shrewd pivot]

I mean, it's not the hiding that is the issue

It's the fact it is globally known the Lunar colony has different laws

[edgy tree]

hiding things from the people working there or in the other sectors of the colony

the map we see is just a fraction of the whole thing

[shrewd pivot]

Sigma created technology that helped many people! But (because of Hammonds story making it canon that the world knows the space colony has different laws) that doesn't mean he is a purely ethical person.

[edgy tree]

what was he suppost to do stop the colony? he was just one random scientist

[shrewd pivot]

He made the choice to use the space colony as the location for his experiment, knowing the space station had different laws (aka the lunar colony is not an ethical facility because of lack of laws)

[edgy tree]

it was the only space colony on the moon

and he for some reason needed zero g to do his experiments

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah. And he probably justified his unethical choice to use the space colony as the location because he thought the gravity experiment would be worth it in the end. "Ends justify the means"

[edgy tree]

and they were kinda

he's the reason repulsors are cheap and small

[shrewd pivot]

Absolutely not bro is cursed with a scifi version of cosmic madness lol

[edgy tree]

he made a small itsy bitsy black hole mistake

[shrewd pivot]

He created all that grav tech before his gravity accident occured.

[edgy tree]

he was working on grav tech in the colony

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah but his gravity accident ultimately made him pay the price for his human hubris

There's a limit to how far "ends justify the means" goes until it's straight up evil like with moira

[edgy tree]

he came back with the finished results but then pushed his theory to the limits

came back to the colony to do his experiment that then failed

that's at least my idea of what happened from what we can kinda see in the cinematic

[edgy tree]

in the end he wasn't the one doing genetic experiments on animals or watching them happen

[shrewd pivot]

Sigma was written as pretty much good guy until Hammond lore recontextualized the lunar colony as obviously unethical and known as such globally bc of the laws being public knowledge

[edgy tree]

sure he was there and maybe? wasn't against it (not sure what he would do)

[shrewd pivot]

He was in the house with the bad guys, doesn't mean he did it, but he could have easily found another method for his work that didn't involve the lax lawed space station

[edgy tree]

I'm preety sure that's the only space station like that

would be weird to have multiple lunar colonies

to pick and choose from

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah, and he could have stopped at any time to pursue a better location for his work.

[edgy tree]

again just one lunar colony

there wasn't a "better" location

[shrewd pivot]

He had the money from his gravity tech that revolutionized the world to do work at a special built facility

Honestly, it still baffles me that Chu said Moira wasn't written to be an evil villain bc she is litterally doing eugenics experiments by torturing animals and human test subjects like herself and reaper lmafo

[edgy tree]

he most likely spent a lot of it on the black hole creating thing

• again he was there before he revolutionized the world

[shrewd pivot]

It's not that Sigma DESERVED his narrative punishment of the accident to happen, it's that in canon, Hammond's story recontextualized both Winston and Sigma into being morally grey characters

Like Winston has some major trauma issues if he saw Dr.Winston as actually a safe person, meaningful enough to name himself after Dr.Winston

[edgy tree]

he most likely just saw the good side of him

[shrewd pivot]

Winston was recontextualized from a hopeful optumist about humanity, to a guy growing up surrounded by abusive human scientists + Winston feels guilty he left Hammond for dead

[edgy tree]

I'd still say Sigma is on the better side of that spectrum if he has to be

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah Sigma is probably like, Mercy's situation or Torbjörn's situation

Morally grey for using the unethical facilities to do work that was helpful

Tho tbh Torbjörn is much more morally grey

[edgy tree]

"helpfull" was a bit of an understatement tbh

their work basically revolutionized the world in one way or another

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it was positive and helpful

[edgy tree]

he be a bit racist

or omniccist?

btw I love how these characters got complex lore and then there's Wuyang and his water college

[shrewd pivot]

Anti-omnic at the beginning yes. I like his arc from anti-omnic to pro-omnic bc it showed WHY someone might be anti-omnic, it was obvious it was about Torbjörn and not the innocent omnics. Torbjörn felt survivors guilt

[shrewd pivot]

Don't get me started 😭 😭 😭 😭 🥀

Wuyang should have been a campy Wuxia hero cinema reference like how Cassidy is a campy Spaghetti Western cowboy cinema reference. "Wuxia" genre stories are the pulp fiction stories created in China

But nope, westernized Wuxing to the point it might as well be a certain garbo wizard school house system 🥀

[edgy tree]

it feels like a watered down version of the shimada brothers story

and kid friendly

[shrewd pivot]

Mmm not really. It's more like Anran is outshing Wuyang even though Wuyang is trying his best

Hanzo was forced into a 'perfect leading' role too, but Genji wasn't trying desperately to keep up, he actively goofed off/avoided serious Shimada clan work

[edgy tree]

Wuyang does also goof off and that's why he didn't make it into fire college

the only reason he worked hard was that he failed at what he was suppost to be

kinda like genji is working hard now to fit his new role

[shrewd pivot]

It's different. Wuyang wants to not shame his family.

Wuyang's story is extremely ableist because of subtext :(

Wuyang is based on Guo Jing from "The Return of the Condor heroes". Guo Jing was developmentally disabled kid, unable to speak at 4 years old, clumsy, bad memory, etc and through Wuxing "cultivation" he learned how to do martials arts and control his chi and became a great Wuxia hero!

Meanwhile, Wuyang failed his entrance exams even though he tried really hard! The story boils down to basically: The parents are Olympians that got into uni that became prestigious. Anran is an Olympian that got into prestigious uni just like her parents. Wuyang tried, did worse on entrance exams (again Guo Jing basis, Wuyang probably has a disability), and now can only be a physical therapist. His family shames him for this, as well as his community. His heroic aspiration is to.... not bring shame to his family because he has a disability??? or atleast is not gifted like his family so they shame him?? He is fighting to earn conditional love???? His family is ableist because if excellence is the expectation/standard, even normal ability is deemed unacceptable.

[edgy tree]

ig I got the beggining of his lore wrong

though he was goofing off at first and that's why he failed

[shrewd pivot]

Nah, he is trying but also studying multiple disciplines like fire college martial arts (and making a weapon with Ming) that he's so tired he sometimes falls asleep in his normal water college classes

He is truely trying his best, but just like Guo Jing he might have a disability that impacts his ability to learn, or he just is simply "average" and his ableist parents make him feel guilty over that :(

It sucks bc Wuyang's "trying to 'earn' conditional love" is completely antithetical to Ashe, Symmetra, and Hazard's story. Especially with Hazard's story out right tackling ableism and the neglect that veterans face, I was very disappointed by Wuyang's story.

[edgy tree]

that's after he failed

[shrewd pivot]

Wuyang has very little agency in his story beyond him trying to "'earn' conditional love" and his motivation of being a famous hero that crowds love.

Like, if Wuyang was in Ashe's situation, he probably would have become the very pawn of the company that Ashe rejected 😭

[edgy tree]

I'm saying before he even applied to the college

[shrewd pivot]

Wuyang and Anran trained together to do thier best on entrance exams

[edgy tree]

I know he's working his ass off now I saw the cinematic

ik now double checked the lore when I first said it I didn't know exactly why he failed

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I feel bad for Wuyang lol he needs a role model that will provide unconditional platonic love to him. He has none from his parents and if he ends up living in Anran's shadow when those two join overwatch that would suck. Water boy is trying his best 😭

[edgy tree]

that's why I kinda found a similarity to genjis story of working hard after a heavy loss at FIRST

before being reminded of the start lol

[shrewd pivot]

Ofc no worries!

[edgy tree]

Anran at least is kinda nice sometimes

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah but she also falls into conditional bc the lines she says to Wuyang are pretty harsh

She def can grow into a healthy unconditional source of support but currently she still has a bit of that carrying with her from the pressures of thier parents

The fact she plans to join overwatch with Wuyang tho indicates she might be rebelling from toxic family conditional love, so that's good. She also sounds much more supportive in the more recent cinematic than the older comic.

[edgy tree]

you could only imagine how harsch they were to their first kid dx

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah :(

[edgy tree]

at least she's not a Hanzo

[shrewd pivot]

Anran and Hanzo have a similarity of being forced to be "a perfect family legacy" in that sense

[edgy tree]

yeah but how they ended up treating their younger brother was a wee bit diffrent

like almost murder kinda diffrent

[shrewd pivot]

Agreed, though Anran was not in a gang empire so lol

[edgy tree]

he did end up stabbing him tho

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah it was bad, Hanzo had thought he truely killed his brother

[edgy tree]

then decided to punish himself by leaving his clan just to find out he's still alive

at least now Kiriko brought some sense into him and he might end up fighting for the side of good

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah I am very happy Hanzo is getting his redemption arc

While i genuinely find the Hanzo and Kiriko interactions for redemption wholesome, I just find Kiriko’s reverence for the Shimada clan kind of unsettling for an "optumistic future" story. In a text story she shows reverence for the Shimada clan in almost like a "oh such good kings!" way? Like girl, no, you don't need a "good king" you need to get rid of the tyrannical monarchy system that allows for bad kings to happen lol

The Shimada clan are heavily inspired by the Yakuza, and in an optumistic future a cartel/mafia would not be "keeping the peace" while extorting locals. Bc that's what the Yakuza does, it's oppression and the locals do not deserve that.

[lyric saffron]

So ppl do we think ven will actually be talon’s new leader

[coarse pond]

lore expert needed - did Talon ever come to realization the double crossing Sombra did during the Infiltration cinematic ?

[coarse pond]

i’m not entirely sold yet but it seems the story is heading that way

[fierce moon]

the new talon logo is literally a wolf no shit 😭

[coarse pond]

[hollow oar]

yall wtf, what im taking away from the new lore comic is doomfist is canonically dead?? 😭

wtf widowmaker is a drug addict too 😭 talon lore drop is wild

[glad fox]

How do sigma and mercy know each other?

One of their interactions is him asking if they can meet after a conference and her saying that was years ago

Why would an astrophysicist and a doctor go to the same conference?

[peak escarp]

idk, science conference

maybe she was looking into his anti-grav tech for her Valkyrie suit and went to see him talk at a conference

[peak escarp]

no

[gloomy rose]

didn’t check the new story yet is it any good

[wooden drift]

Kinda neat

[hollow oar]

yeah mb i misheard something vendetta said at the start lol

[glad fox]

Did he have anti grav tech before his accident?

[azure flint]

old lore mentioned

hopefully this means they add the old cinematics to the story tab

[wooden drift]

Not even sure what this story tab even for... I guess it is convenient to get these new lore drops in there, but I feel like people just watch them on YouTube

[fierce moon]

Mostly to notify casual players who dont follow ow on socials

[azure flint]

or if u dont feel like going to yt

[wooden drift]

I guess..

[bitter scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-stretch-cat-stretching-xiao-hong-shu-cat-xhs-cat-gif-14842361337066058127

[shrewd pivot]

OHHHH there's a text version of the new lore i didn't see that, I'm silly sorry for being dense earlier
What the heck, the text reads so differently from the video voice over, the video really didn't do this text's mood/implications justice, this should have been a cinematic to show how vendetta picked up the token, etc

"Then Vendetta stepped onto the windowsill and vanished into the night.
Alone again, Max sat in the chair behind his desk. Finally, the pieces were set,
and the real game could begin"

Bro this is just another tuesday for Maximilien. Max in the text is so in control of the situation and vendetta sounds unsure/naive almost, swayed just as doomfist was. In the video this all comes off COMPLETELY different

Max is absolutely pulling strings here, that video did a very bad job of indicating that.

not the VA's fault, both VA did brilliant voice work (Max VA's "DON'T--let the suit fool you," in the video was SO good compared to the text of "Don't let the suit fool you."), it's the voice directors fault.

[gloomy rose]

yeah it was cool

[peak escarp]

he invented the tech behind the mag-lev rims you see on all the floating cars

[glad fox]

mag lev is not related to gravity though

[bold fern]

why do they want us to feel nostalgic about doom

🤔

[peak escarp]

it's a form of anti gravity

[brittle sky]

yeah, the video will definitely make people think it's all in vendetta's court, but the short story definitely makes it seem like this might be Max's game entirely. Which hey, Vendetta being the long prophesized 'max's champ' character, she just doesn't know it is a cool angle.

[shrewd pivot]

yeah! for sure. i much prefer the text's context

[azure flint]

watched the new vid finally

blizzard is cooking smth fr

would've liked to see max explain the other talon members' weaknesses or wtv

sombra's would probably be abt her identity
reaper his family maybe

[hearty citrus]

i dont like how its vendetta all of a sudden it could have been maybe ramattra doing something similar

[valid jolt]

Yooooooo, the comic and the voiced version even though having the same dialogue have literally different perspectives/context.

The comic/text version ends in a way that Max won, Vendetta didn't know enough and spared Max.

Like the comic is more about Max and not about what Vendetta is about to do next.

Am scared of Max more than Vendetta.

[rare trail]

yeah lowk she shoulda been set up more or smth

feels kinda last minutep

[valid jolt]

Text version having this "internal dialogue/thoughts for both characters" it changes how the story is told bruh.

[hearty citrus]

it fs is they have been having issues

ram would have been better for something like this and then they could have maybe vendetta team up or sum

[rare trail]

wait sorry i havent watched/read/listened to the new media, what are the differences between the different mediums of the story?

[hearty citrus]

absolutley

[rare trail]

yeah afaik ram kinda got shafted story relavence wise

i mean ram storyline really stalled with invasion tanking and just pve as a whole

[hearty citrus]

id say im more interested in max then vendetta

[rare trail]

i really like max

[valid jolt]

The dialogues are the same nothing is lost there, it's the thinking/internal monologue that both have, which is lost. In voiced version

[hearty citrus]

they cooked ram and he was the best character to come out of ow2

[rare trail]

ohh i see

[rare trail]

fr

rammatra reflections was peak

[hearty citrus]

the only reason i played ow2 or even started to

[rare trail]

idk they might not wanna get into omnic stuff because its a pretty loaded allegory to real life stuff

[valid jolt]

I suggest reading text version while play pausing the voiced version when there is a dialogue.

[hearty citrus]

they wont

[rare trail]

yeah

[hearty citrus]

i feel like when they add voices to something like that itll change up the interp of it no matter what

[rare trail]

and its hard to communicate effectively both peoples thoughts through voice

[valid jolt]

Anime and some TV shows do have internal monologue, it's usually not done while a conversation is happening so it's understandable.

[hearty citrus]

right

[rare trail]

yeah 100%

[azure flint]

have to check out the text ver of the vid soon

[rare trail]

its hard to have two people have internal thoughts while having a conversation and be clear about whos saying and thinking what

[azure flint]

what i got from the vid is basically max and vendetta are gonna exploit each talon members weakness to either get rid of them or make them submit

[valid jolt]

Yep that is correct

[hearty citrus]

vendettas whole thing is revenge

[valid jolt]

She gonna make talon scary again. Don't know how or when yet.

[hearty citrus]

max did say its just a group of greedy dudes now

[rare trail]

ok i read the story

i like it mostly

"How many assassins had attacked Max in this very office, over the years? Max
had never kept track. But his arc in Talon appeared to have come full circle. He
first met Doomfist here, when he sought to establish himself as leader, and now
Vendetta was here to do the same. But he’d managed to convince Akande to spare
him, to bring him on. And now Max would do the same with Vendetta. Always agile,
always a step ahead, no matter who he had to step on to save himself."

this section is lowk dumb tho idk

and just the premise of max knowing that someone is going after and has already killed two talon associates and like being so chill abt it??? does he not care about his safety like whT

AND so many assassins hes lost count have made it past his security??? how easy it is to kill this guy

i can accept doom and venture getting past, thats whatever, theyre named characters, thats valid

idk its a nitpick but like are we fr

[hearty citrus]

well his character since ive learned about him seems to be obv pretty selfish ad kinda like a cockroach just barely escaping by anyway he can

in a place where you got a bunch of ppl trying to slime u i would try to do a whole lot to survive too tho lowk

[rare trail]

i mean he says “It appears I wasted
money on all those new security measures.” which is like something but

[hearty citrus]

i mean that thing w freja too he just has money to splurge like that

[rare trail]

two massive windows in your main office where multiple assassins have already come into is insane

[hearty citrus]

anything to aura farm ig

[rare trail]

fr

[hearty citrus]

his character design is pretty fire the suit i always fw

[valid jolt]

He is chill, like always, he knows how to pull everyone's strings, how to make a deal in his favour, like he probably rehearsed this interaction without knowing if Vendetta would come for him.

[rare trail]

like overwatch is an illegal organization at the moment, why cant they just like capture max do they care about due process

[hearty citrus]

max is always calm and collected he knows his way around his world fr

[hearty citrus]

they have morals yea but id imagine not totally legal

[rare trail]

i meant they have morals but it means taking down talon to some extent

like are they above kidnapping to take down a major player of talon??

[hearty citrus]

think that could be blizzard trying to be patient and not change the story drastically

[rare trail]

idk it seems a little wack that someone as smart and cowardly as hes supposed to be has such lax security

i mean story needs to happen yada yada but like are we serious

[valid jolt]

Some kind of supreme court related to protection and stuff, decided that after the work in the null sector invasion, the overwatch is on hold, implying that they are not illegal anymore but can still be shut down.

[hearty citrus]

that genuinely does get me irritated kinda lazy but wtv

[rare trail]

“Don’t let the suit fool you. I’ve been in your position before . . . left with
nothing, after the Crisis,” he began. “I remember what it was like to toil in
silence while the cruel and unworthy sat in a palace they’d forged from luck
and the labor of others.” He turned his head to face her. “And I remember the
moment I took my revenge . . . although moment doesn’t quite encapsulate it.”

i really like this characterization

[hearty citrus]

the un or something our supreme court cant really do that

[rare trail]

i mean on hold means they wouldnt be allowed to operate

and where is that from ?

[hearty citrus]

isnt that from one of the videos

for ow

and the comics too perchance

[rare trail]

i mean united nations did make
overwatch illegal with the petras act ages ago so they do have power over them

[valid jolt]

The sojourn briefing the world, it's one of the voiced comics too wait let me find

[rare trail]

icic

[hearty citrus]

thats what im saying they are an international organization our supreme court isnt gonna hold up as well as the international criminal court

[rare trail]

ig that kinda tracks then

they gotta be on best behaviour

[hearty citrus]

ah yea

[valid jolt]

"atlas news report".
https://youtu.be/LwvFQhBSotk?si=B8Af2qKRbW5r4ZbV

[hearty citrus]

fs but still black watch did illegal things

[rare trail]

yeah us supreme court has no bearing on overwatch i dont think

[hearty citrus]

i would hope so lmao

[valid jolt]

It's like the world supereme court thing

[hearty citrus]

yea icc

[rare trail]

ion think that is a thing twin

[hearty citrus]

not supreme court but like globally recognized body for allat

un stuff

[rare trail]

i mean the icj is a thing but like thats different

[hearty citrus]

yea

i think the ow thing would be icc not icj

[rare trail]

i looked it up something called the international justice commission is what enscted the petras act

which is just like made up

ow only thing

[valid jolt]

*On standby.

So like be ready if bad stuff happens.
winton and soj have been recruiting since then

[hearty citrus]

yea icc real and icj real but icc would be doin sum like that

[hearty citrus]

im intersted in what ow is gonna do or learn

[valid jolt]

Where the lord warlord guy at, he knows every single thing about the galaxy in which overwatch is.

[hearty citrus]

no clue who that is

[hearty citrus]

nvm found him

[valid jolt]

Sleeping 😌 I guess, I just search filter by their messages in this channel for overwatch stuff. That person knows everything

Is Pluto a dwarf planet in overwatch world, they would know that.

[hearty citrus]

it would have gotten smaller so it would stay dwarf planet 😭

[valid jolt]

I just learned that, Maximilian gave overwatch strike team doomfist's location, which led to doomfist being captured. Which is what we see in doomfist origin story... Not the first time Maximilian helped someone take down doomfist.

https://x.com/i/status/1121504149734952961

[bitter scroll]

Wtf its goose

I thought u died

[peak escarp]

her

[shrewd pivot]

The dialogs have completely different reads though despite the punctuation and pauses.
Vendetta does not pick up the token in the video either. The text i think is the intended canon.

[peak escarp]

the difference in tone between the text and the audio version highlights why I prefer short stories and comics over animations

[shrewd pivot]

The way this makes sense: Maximilien is gambling. Prior stories shared that Maximilien is barred from gambling because omnics are barred from gambling. Maximilien is interested in betting, setting things up to watch others fall. Maximilien seems to be betting on the fact he can talk his way out of things.
He has a self destructive behavior in this way, which honestly? It makes sense (look at others like Ram who have self destructive behavior too, the trauma is not an easy thing). It also makes Maximilien extremely compelling as a villainous character imo.

[shrewd pivot]

I prefer good voice direction which overwatch has struggled with for a while now 😅 (the VAs do great work! I want to see that shine)

I often find overwatch text story writing "dry" save for a few stories like Hammond's thoughtless gods, etc.

But yeah I think if the read outs are going to be so vastly different from source text, I definitely prefer getting the text to understand the lore.

I also feel like the dialogs written for Vendetta in this new story text, did not take into account her Italian accent. Even without using slang, different accents will word sentences differently and have different pauses. It's an important thing to keep in mind when writing dialog for a diverse group of characters.

[shrewd pivot]

Also, sorry for yapping so much here lately. I really love overwatch lore and worldbuilding, and it has been incredibly fun seeing different perspectives, critques, hype, and all the corrections of lore i have misremembered or misinterpreted has been very useful (i really appreciate it!)! The sources too! Thank you for letting me participate, especially with new lore drops it's awesome to see others takes and lore connections made :)

[median orchid]

Its fine to me. Id yap as much as you if i had the self confidence to do so 😩

[rare trail]

idk if this view is really supported by the text so much

maximilean is clearly scared when vendetta attacks and his internal dialogue doesnt say anything about him liking the thrill of talking his way out of it and doing it on purpose and that wouldnt line up with adding extra security methods

[shrewd pivot]

the betting part or the self destructive part?
I mean the self destructive part as more like, "survival mode"
The gambling part conclusion comes from the fact that from Maximilien's POV text in the text version of the story, he compares Vendetta to various others assassins that tried to hurt him, and how Doomfist said the same lines that Vendetta did "what do you gain from this" almost like a 'hook, line and sinker' situation. Maximilien was written as being in control of the situation via his negotiation skills in the text version of the story. the audio video portrays maximilien completely at vendetta's mercy begging for his life.

[lyric chasm]

well, that's what we're all here for :3

[rare trail]

idk if i would agree that hes depicted as in control

like he is manipulating vendetta but the story takes its time in multiple places to say he is very close to death and at her mercy

"Max would need to speak fast if he had any hope of surviving."
"Max did his best to remain calm, to maintain some dignity despite cowering
on the floor."
"Max had been waiting for an opening to bargain for his life—but it seemed
no such time would come."

[shrewd pivot]

he is depicted as feeling confident in his abilities to manipulate vendetta by the end. especially with the final lines: "Then Vendetta stepped onto the windowsill and vanished into the night.
Alone again, Max sat in the chair behind his desk. Finally, the pieces were set,
and the real game could begin."

Maximilien is gambling with his life, betting he can use his manipulation skills to talk his way out of things. high stakes!

[rare trail]

gambling with his life wouldnt make sense with adding security measures

that interpretation doesnt line up with his actions in the story

[brittle sky]

He's playing it risky, but you don't say "finally the pieces were set, and the real game could begin" if you weren't pulling at least a bit of the strings.

[rare trail]

of course hes confident after hes already bargained successfully for his life, but that doesnt mean he knew that was going to happen

[shrewd pivot]

in the audio read out it comes off as a serious statement

in the text it's almost like "oh dear, yet another assassin has gotten to me, vendetta you're sooooo good you got past my high security you are sooo skilled" but like in a manipulative way to make Vendetta think she's won to win her favor

[rare trail]

i dont agree

[brittle sky]

(I mean also a callback to pocket king where doomfist barged in too, yeah?)

[rare trail]

and like

even accepting he planned and gambled for specifically vendetta

[brittle sky]

sidenote - still not over the text version calling her tall. She's like, eye level with freakin' Tracer, and while she's crouching, she's not crouching that much.

[rare trail]

why is he gambling with countless other assassins, and why did ALL of them hear him out

[shrewd pivot]

yeah i really doubt maximilien as an omnic, after all he's been through, would be sitting the open STILL. he trusts his manipulation skills to get him out of things. a lot of his character is using his soft skills as protection.

it's an ego thing

a gambling addiction

[rare trail]

"Tall and broad, her stance wide so
as to appear even more imposing, a wild mane of curls whipping in the wind. She
reached a muscular arm over one shoulder, and with a practiced swipe, the blade
of a massive sword extended to point directly at Max’s face."
i mean the vision might be like hes on the floor so she seems taller but like

vendetta is like kinda tiny relatively

[shrewd pivot]

Yeah vendetta is like widowmaker's height in game, so we can assume Vendetta isn't as tall as junkerqueen or anything

maximilien was on the floor at that time, so she would be looming over him regardless

[brittle sky]

You could say looming over him or even towering over him and we'd know it was a subjective thing. This says she's objectively tall and broad (y'know, the skinny lady who seems maybe 5'7, though that's in heels) big, and standing to look even bigger. Just a bit of a goofy oversight.

[shrewd pivot]

Widowmaker is tall for a lady tho

and Vendetta seems to be that height if not a tad taller bc she doesn't wear high heels

[brittle sky]

Nah, most of that is hair.

Eye level she's barely above Mei

[rare trail]

yeah the text makes her seem taller than she is

[brittle sky]

she... she wears heels

[rare trail]

maxi isnt the tallest guy himself

but like

[shrewd pivot]

really??? i had a friend show screencaps from the game with vendetta and widowmaker standing in emotes, vendetta without heels is near widow's height in heels

[rare trail]

vendetta wears heels in game no?

[brittle sky]

could be illusions of the first person pov, but she's pretty notably shorter in her eye line than widow, much less moira

[brittle sky]

yeah her battle sandals have heels for some reason (I mean doylistically we know, but watsonianly heels are not good in arena sand lady.)

[rare trail]

i mean they do that a lot for women in like movies and t vshows to make them seem taller but like tactically are we serious

or like just to make people seem taller like tom cruise or robert downey jr

but like, if they want her to be taller, they can just, do that....

shes not a real person like

[shrewd pivot]

i have. opinions on how they depict vendetta bc a "wild mane of curls". I get it. i get she's meant to be a she-wolf and "feral"(the writers words not mine) but it kinda sucks that the first canon roster character in overwatch with curls(even if the 3d model straightened her curls from her 2d curly hair art for whatever bs reason) has her curls portrayed as "wild" :( curly hair is just natural hair man...

[brittle sky]

Okay but if that was a purposeful bit where Vendetta is egotistically trying to not seem short even at the expense of mobility in her arena fighting that would be a choice. Don't think they mean that choice though.

[rare trail]

i guess they mean like a lions mane or smth liek gladiator type beat

but her hair doesnt look like

[brittle sky]

would we not count Venture's hair as curly? It's shorter, certainly, but definitely not straight.

[rare trail]

weird or different too much among overwatch hair

it kinda jsut has a lot of volume

[shrewd pivot]

compared to her 2d art that had curly hair, her hair has been straightened a lot. her forhead curl strands are all that remain. also, adding that "swoop" means her hair isn't curly because curly hair does not form shape like that. Vendetta has wavy hair now with the slightest curl, and most of her skins show her with straight hair.

I am sad they didn't go for the iconic italian curl, but a curl similar to sojourn's "barista" skin would have worked just fine imo. it's not like overwatch hasn't had skins with curly hair before so idk why they straightened her hair from concepts.

Source: I have 'goldilock' curly hair, Greek. my hair is like the biggest curls you can get before it is defined as wavy hair. on bad curl days it's still curly. on good curl days it's like goldilocks curls.

[rare trail]

righttt i was thinking there was a soj skin with like the curls in the front but i didnt remember the name

[brittle sky]

I mean her overwatch flashback skin her natural hair is less grown out/dreaded

(locced?)

[rare trail]

is her hair like

natural at all with all her implants

[brittle sky]

I meant its natural in its texture

[rare trail]

yeye ikwym i think i just wonder like

biologically or w/e

does it grow? or is it like wigs all th etime

i mean probably not wigs but like some type of head piece yk

[shrewd pivot]

yeah i gotta be honest this is now the 3rd time overwatch has decided to not go for curls, i think it's fair to call it texturism.

First (if you can count this one) is Mauga, because many Samoan people have curly hair (think of the hair textures shown in Moana)--technically straight hair isn't unheard of but i digress

Second was venture who had curly hair in 2d but the curls where nerfed to wavy hair in 3d model

Third is vendetta who had curly hair in 2d, but it was straightened in the 3d art and only the forehead curl strands remained. She absolutely should have had curly hair. It's iconic. Italian curls are even tighter coils than the curls she had in 2d art.

[brittle sky]

Captain Chase is the one I'm talking of, skin wise. And I think her hair might be natural? Her eyes, limbs, and organs are all extensively replaced, but her need for cybernetics came from largely issues with organs. Okay, autoimmune disease attacking her organs, so like, superlupus. While autoimmune disorders can cause the hair to fall out, I think she'd have to outright replace her scalp to get around that, so we can probably read that as her disease didn't attack her hair follicles and they're natural.

[brittle sky]

Texturism is a thing, but I also just think they struggle to render more shaped curls in their art style.

[shrewd pivot]

I think it's up for debate but i would not be surprised if she did not have natural hair anymore. in her cinematic, it's shown even her torso can be replaced so it's honestly up in the air if things like her head skin is replaceable too.

[shrewd pivot]

I get that take, but Barista Sojourn is perfectly fine curls. Overwatch can absolutely render curls in an overwatch style, they have already done so.

[brittle sky]

True, but it's notably only a few bangs tucked under a hat. Even Venture would be a bigger ask in terms of amount of hair you gotta shape.

[shrewd pivot]

Respectfully, this is the same kind of logic used to excuse not depicting afro textured hair, but thankfully overwatch does rep various afro textured hair styles from natural to locs to dreads in overwatch with Sojourn, Baptiste, Lucio, and Doomfist.

If fortnite can do it, overwatch can do it.

alternatively, if it really was a "large curly pony tail rendering issue" then they could have made Vendetta have short curly hair (many roman statues have this hair style) and have her wearing her gladiator helmet+poofy crest that she was shown with in her teasers

[brittle sky]

I'm not trying to excuse it. Just don't think it's malice so much as workflow not prioritizing it.

[shrewd pivot]

I get that! But workflow often does not prioritize diverse features because texturism/colorism biases has made foundations for only certain kinds of character designs. Lighting, sculpting, and texturing can be influenced by bias.
No hate intended towards you! I'm just passionate about the art field and rep

[brittle sky]

I'm fully agreeing with that on how priorities can reveal bias (because priorities are in effect bias - what you prioritize is what you prioritize)

[shrewd pivot]

yep! I mean overwatch has had a euro-centric sculpting bias that has thankfully eased over time. Wuyang's face and specifically nose isn't nearly as euro-centrically sculpted as DVA, Kiriko, Genji, and Hanzo are.
Some motifs are art styles (ie, the proboscis monkey male vs female dymorphism in disney characters lol), others are general biases that go across the whole art field like not depicting larger/rounder noses on South East Asian characters (Juno for example).

Don't get me wrong, i am VERY thankful that we have the hair rep we already do in overwatch! And the diverse faces we do have are so awesome.

I just think, just like all things, there is room for improvement in some areas.

[brittle sky]

I mean, OW in general has a bias towards eurocentrism/places with a substantive gaming market. We got a 3rd character from Scandinavia before we got to like... a third from the entirety of sub-Saharan Africa or the entirety of the Islamosphere?

[shrewd pivot]

yeah African NEEDS to be explored more in overwatch. South America too!

[brittle sky]

I mean south america at least got illari a few years ago. The last character from africa was... 2017? And they're about to have him be 'killed off' by an italian lady?

[rare trail]

no ones getting killed off ever gang

[brittle sky]

(last character from SWANA was 2016 with Ana)

[brittle sky]

sure, not actually. But still likely deposed and cruising under the narrative for a bit to focus on Venny's reign

[rare trail]

yeye

[shrewd pivot]

Emre is our first SWANA man on the roster tbf, but i fully agree we need more explorations of the area. Ig Oasis might play into it (sombra says eye conspiracy is connected to oasis)?

We did get Morocco lore, but I def want to see other places in Africa.

[brittle sky]

Honestly they should have just passed all the stuff they gave to the Collective to Oasis as the 'science guys', rather than immediately making them just bad guys.

[shrewd pivot]

I think what feels different about Doomfist vs Vendetta.... is that we got Numbani lore of Orisa+Efi AND Doomfist, so it felt more like worldbuilding for Nigeria in overwatch and not just a negative stereotype. Doomfist got to have characters to bounce off of for lore and world building.

As said before, Junkerqueen does most of Vendetta's tropes already (modern gladiator, wrestler heel, family vendetta, mob boss, evil tyrant). Vendetta doesn't have any connection to good guys in Italy to bounce off of like how Doomfist has with Orisa+Efi, so Vendetta feels like a negative stereotype. I have issue with the writers saying she's meant to be empowering bc of her emotions bc like. okay a lady from america showing her rage/short temper emotions as a villainess can be very powerful sure, but for an Italian woman having her rage/short temper and no-compromise mafia heritage is actually a really negative stereotype for Italian women lol. It's like how short buzzcut hair for white women can be empowering, but long natural hair for black women can be empowering. there's different contexts. and I feel they didn't really... take into account that Vendetta is Italian beyond the "roman gladiator mafia tyrant"

[shrewd pivot]

yeah it was interesting to see how the creators talked about oasis in art books. they specifically said they didn't want to depict the area as wartorn as many movies/pulp fiction did since it's an optumistic future, so they went 'utopia' route... only for lore to then make it an unethical science base creating mass surveillance 'minority report ai' with an illuminati eye conspiracy connected to it lmafo.

[brittle sky]

And like, it's okay to make a place nuanced! Have them work willingly with Moira... and then turn around and have them defend Lifeweaver tooth and nail, because both are to them maverick scientists trying to do worthwhile research! That's a consistent moral philosophy, and makes us think about both the good and bad side of celebrating science at all costs. But instead we made a whole new faction of shining bright science guys with no such moral complications (who we then give the markers of freaking libertarian seasteaders) to do the good science stuff with, so you don't have to have pesky thoughts. No, we have the good science utopia founded by this adorable old science couple doing all the good science, so we can leave all the bad science stuff to the... Iraqi House of Wisdom Sendup.

[brittle sky]

If her narrative ends up being straightforward (which the max story shows its potentially will not be), it does feel like having a less nuanced character without any interesting features under the veneer of having a 'no compromise' female villain.

Yes, female villains are too often made precious or broken or irrational because of the tropes we throw at female characters. But you can't claim you're throwing off the chains of female character constraints as a reason she's invincible and unbeatable, while still making the person meant to be a powerful crime boss and a match for doomfist sub thirty and adhering aggressively to female beauty standards (even when it doesn't make sense as a gladiator with a giant anime sword). She still screams being focused tested into the ground on her design.

[shrewd pivot]

yep. you summed it up perfectly lmafo

Project Titan (canceled mmo that then became overwatch) had players travel back into time at important historical moments to do hero work.
In overwatch, you can see famous historical places be almost a reflection of that, like how Genji + Hanzo's story could easily be a story from historical Japan.

I was expecting Oasis to be the epicenter for mathematics and research to reference the Islamic scientific golden age
Also, the tower at Oasis is like, a scifi twist on the tower of Babel or something. no idea what the tower is for but it wouldn't suprise me if it was for something big lore wise bc of the 'minority report ai' oasis has

[shrewd pivot]

yeah if anything, they should have made her a stout 'warrior princess' like, "little lady with giant weapon" trope to reference she's a mafia leader's daughter. She's not even a big lady with a big sword. she's a widowmaker height lady with a winston tesla canon sized sword. a big lady with a big weapon is Junkerqueen who is tall and has a big axe.

Honestly i have NO idea why we couldn't have gotten a dark-souls-eqsque omnic vendetta being forced to fight in the ring against VR suit mechs piloted by humans real steel style, have Antonio using omnic vendetta as a betting horse of sorts. that references how roman gladiators where often prisoners, and it can reference Pinocchio (And the chapter where he is stolen and forced to perform in a circus) which is Italian cinema instead of the mafia Godfather lol, all while still keeping Antonio's death important to Vendetta's story. Like. Vendetta didn't NEED to be a villain.

not saying vendetta had to be an omnic or had to be good, it's just. there's little sauce with Vendetta's character/design, her VA is the most compelling part bc her VA does very good work. Also yeah cool sword but how does a character with a dark saber not hit it out of the park design wise lol. as a "She-wolf" it almost feels like she should have had the talon assassin dual blades or wolverrine hardlight claws instead of the big sword.

[brittle sky]

The team is talented. There are very competent people working on all parts of these characters. My critiques is consistently for the executives and design leads that limit that creativity, usually to the most narratively digestible, broadly appealing (in both marketing and aesthetic senses), 'relatable' versions of what they could be.

[shrewd pivot]

yeah. but i think it's fair to say that the new team might have to grow into the space the old team held. Freja, Wuyang, Vendetta. they don't have the same charm/compelling design as heroes like Junkerqueen, Ramattra, Sigma, Sombra. Not saying every overwatch hero added after ow1 release was a perfect execution but my god i want more characters like Sigma, push the world building for what can be done in superhero scifi. I want more designs like Orisa, push the world building in an omnic filled world. etc

Sigma's origin short is still my favorite art piece from overwatch.

That said, i do enjoy Freja's chase lore, it is interesting to watch unfold. I just wish her visual design made more sense and connected her more to the scifi world of overwatch.

[wise grotto]

Imma be honest
I loved freyas including on a lore standpoint
Wuyang builds the world building for China despite being the second one we have neither Mei doesn’t exactly have much to do with her home country’s in universe stuff

[shrewd pivot]

That's fair!
And Wuyang's botched Wuxing rep is the issue, the premise itself of a cultivation school with wuxia refs isn't a bad idea, could have been absolute peak, could have been better than cassidy as a spaghetti western campy ref

[brittle sky]

I think the pressures from above are different. It's perhaps overly simple to say 'they gotta sell skins now', but it's hard to dispute that recent heroes have shown a hard lean towards skinny, conventionally attractive women who can fill out a variety of skins, and guys with their abs out. Overwatch's role as a super hero shooter always leans a bit towards that, but we're not getting Sigma, Orisa, Torbjorn, Bastion, Roadhog. Even Junkrat and Zarya seem beyond the pale. I'm sure the team is capable of and wants to do more gonzo designs (the promised 'one oddball'), but we just don't see that played out in their output.

[wise grotto]

Honestly I kinda like it
There’s heroes I still need more expansion on who’ve been here forever like Zarya

[shrewd pivot]

ABSOLUTELY. The change of monetization from buying a game to play, to now selling skins has absolutely impacted how they design characters.
one of the reasons i loved overwatch was the character design. Reaper? Peak. but they will most likely forego the gritty and fun shape use of characters and pursue designs that are "young supermodel humans showing full face with no visible disability, just armor" despite the fact most characters in overwatch, even the attractive ones, had some kind of mask, glasses, visor, or hat to cover the face in someway.

[brittle sky]

The idea of actually getting a jaded, 'broken bad' ex-ow agent is amazing. I just wish that grizzled, cynical persona wasn't immediately undercut by affection for a guy she's coded as having a romantic thing for, and that her character design actually reflected her being an intimidating bounty hunter as opposed to just... any adventurer. You could tell me she was a collegue of Mei's helping her investigate the Antarctic anomaly. Or someone saving local moth populations from deforestation, and I would think that makes just as much sense, if not more so, than her bounty hunting.

[shrewd pivot]

If you knew Wuxia or "cultivation genres" with Wuxing, you would recognize the Wuxing philosophy is extremely westernized and not relatable at all. Like, completely antithetical to Wuxing. For context, Wuxing is chinese alchemy and the foundations to many religions like Taoism. It's almost... offensive to misrepresent Wuxing to the point of antithesis because it's a core spiritual belief for many, especially in China. Many Chinese players have expressed disliking Wuyang's lore for this reason.

[shrewd pivot]

FULL AGREE. I LOVE that Freja is a jaded, 'broken bad' ex-ow agent! but extremely sad about the rest of that...
and yeah imo her boob window is passable maybe, but her legs needed to be geared up. Ashe, Cass, and Ana are all bounty hunters with armor. I saw a redesign that make Freja more severe and tactical looking but kept her colors and it honestly worked so well because it made her feel like a scifi metal gear bounty hunter, not a fantasy adventurer.
Freja reads as Overwatch's attempt at a "Lara Croft" (her belts even line up lol, not to mention clothing color), but i think Freja needed a more 'ice cold' glare look rather than the pouty femme that widow has going on (it fits widow's lore perfectly)

[brittle sky]

Give her a creepy moth mask! That's apparently her theme, and bounty hunters with creepy masks that dehumanize them into predatory figures are a grand tradition. Give her scars, or aging! You want her to be an ice queen, give her cracks, give the vibe of the aging primadonna gripping hard onto mastery or something. Use her visuals to tell us about her, and tell us something about her other than 'she's cool but not so cool she's unapproachable don't worry guys'

[shrewd pivot]

yeah! 100%

[merry mason]

Nah I think freja having a fantasy design fits overwatch more than giving her a tacticool design. The OW design philosophy seems to be translating myth and fantasy tropes into the modern world more than anything. It shouldn’t be at either extreme, but I’d say “Lara Croft but Scandinavian” is what they should be going for.

[shrewd pivot]

yeah i agree! But i think freja should have had her thighs covered as a bounty hunter from a cold region, and have her cape look less "magic cape" more "scif-y cape" imo. Like how mercy's wings are obviously 'scifi inspired by magic', Freja's cape looks like 'magic inspired by scifi'.

[merry mason]

Moth mask would go hard though

[shrewd pivot]

yeah iirc Freja was based on the "huntress" concept which had a visor. some kind of mask or visor could have helped a lot with her design

[merry mason]

Never thought about how most of the og heroes had something covering their face until you brought it up but yeah I think that’s what we’ve been missing in new heroes. They always show their face

[shrewd pivot]

yep. it's a shame really. Hazard especially should have kept a metal jaw lol.

[digital linden]

frejas cape reads pretty sci-fi to me, doesn’t it use mag lev technology? the one invented by sigma

overwatch is soft sci-fi anyway

[shrewd pivot]

yeah threaded grav tech or something like that

I feel freja should have had more of a grav plate backpack or translucent cape to ref holo/hard light.

[exotic osprey]

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Who died for our sins and rose from the dead to give us the free gift of eternal life and heal our bodies. You can ask Jesus for His gift.💯

[untold sparrow]

THE LOORREEEEEEE

[fierce moon]

What rank is this jesus guy

[brittle sky]

But she's not an archeologist or other such adventurer, she's a bounty hunter, and none of that outside maybe the crossbow articulate she's a bounty hunter. She's got a light moth motif, some cold weather gear (but also boob window and thigh highs and short shorts?), a breeze face tattoo/face paint. Someone described her once as putting the 'I fixed alloy' meme through overwatch's art style.

[twilit patrol]

We love lore

[untold sparrow]

I love more the most

I'm loving what they are doing with the vendetta arc as I am calling it

Or "Neo Talon" works too

[brittle sky]

marzy b's big birthday bash, brought to you by uncle max.

[half robin]

is echo lgbtq? i would love more awareness in this game <3

[merry mason]

My point is she doesn’t need to really look like a bounty hunter, it’s more an excuse for her to be an archetype of a Viking huntress, and not even how they actually may have been but how they’re pictured in the public consciousness.

If you think Viking huntress and you think sexy (and I don’t know about you but I do) then she’s gotta be sexy or the fantasy of that archetype hasn’t been fulfilled

Like how reinhardt wouldn’t work if he was wearing a more practical looking power suit instead of shining knight armor

And bounty hunters are a very romanticized profession so there’s a lot of wiggle room there anyway

[brittle sky]

Is the viking huntress articulated by... what the ruff and the face paint? She has so little allusions to nordic tropes, compared to the likes of other anachronistic characters like Rein, Cass, Genji, Hanzo, hell, Doomfist.

I honestly think she doesn't speak to hunter either, then. She's not a bounty hunter, okay so is she like a game hunter with that bow, ruff, and cape... or no, she's more of a sports competition marksman with those shorts and gloves...?

I don't have a problem if the archetype they're going for includes being sexy (though I'd argue too many of their characters, especially their female characters, prioritize being a safe sort of sexy and often a pretty similar sort). But if so she needs to have that sex appeal be in conversation with her deal and specific.

D.Va looks like a cute kpop idol mixed with a mech plugsuit person, because that's what she is - a celebrity turned celebrity soldier whose fight in her mech is as much propaganda trying to downplay the gwishin problem as it is actual battle effects. We can point to specific archetypes and inspirations, it all informs her character, and the kind of cute she is all feeds that.

Widowmaker is your classic black widow femme fatale. The careful positioning of a sniper tangles up with her spider motif of hanging on a line and this emphasis on a poised, almost contorted body, all putting emphasis on her body in its sleek, leggy features. That all adds in with her background in ballet - her outfit becomes almost like a costume, tight and emphasizing her deadly grace, with clear nods to her spider theme as a cold blooded killer.

You can say Freja is meant to be sexy, but what kind of sexy are we dealing with? How is her particular kind of sex appeal telling a story? Her messy hair and sporty getup could be about her being rugged and energetic, but no, she's played as calm and secure. Her writers call her an ice queen, but her face is young and rounded, with freckles and her nose stud speaking to youth. She's certainly not dangerous in her sex appeal as you might expect a hunter of any sort. You could tell me she's a plucky protagonist sent out from her cyber village to find a cure for whatever curse, and I'd believe you.

sex appeal can be a tool of visual storytelling, but generic sex appeal is too generic to tell that story, especially when some kind of sex appeal has been a tool you've been using consistently with your female cast.

[shrewd pivot]

^ I agree

[fierce moon]

really well written honestly yeah

[azure flint]

🧐

the iq of this chat has been raising by like 50 the past week

the ow lore is truly back

[errant sequoia]

i think this game suffers from too many half-baked ideas they should slow down on new characters

progressing a story by introducing new people every 2 months is one of the worst writing ideas i can think of

not to mention these designs 🤢

[peak escarp]

she is not, but Tracer, Pharah, Soldier, Baptiste, Lifeweaver and Venture are

[half robin]

Ugh…

[errant sequoia]

i think u could make the argument shes nonbinary coded

at least u could interpret her that way

[peak escarp]

she pretty obviously feminine

[half robin]

who are you to label her???

dont be those types of people.

[peak escarp]

she's also imitating her creator, who was female

[azure flint]

do not shitpost in lore channel please

https://tenor.com/view/i-robot-no-no-text-gif-1697004565875031511

[muted rivet]

so is genji and mercy canon or whats up w that

[azure flint]

yes

[dusk granite]

yo can someone answer this for me,
what does it mean that doomfist was formerly nigerian?
was it a fake identity or something? (no seriously, check the official overwatch website, IT LITERALLY SAYS HE WAS FORMERLY NIGERIAN AND NOW ITALY)

[peak escarp]

he was born in Nigeria and he grew up there

he currently lives/works in Rome because that's where Talon HQ is

his nationality hasn't changed

[azure flint]

do you agree vendetta can solo doom six

or is she gonna pull a fast one on him

to win

[peak escarp]

if she's as good as her legend says, she can beat him

[dusk granite]

it's starting to make sense why doomfist has no nigerian voicelines

[peak escarp]

there's a few heroes (all OW1 heroes) who don't have lines in their native language

Reinhardt, Torbjorn, Pharah, Doomfist

Symmetra, Lucio and Orisa didn't launch with native lines, but had some added later on

[azure flint]

will blizzard ever recast pharah

or do nothing with her

from now on

or work with her va on smth new and piss twitter off

[peak escarp]

not likely

[shrewd pivot]

Echo is a non-sapient ai that is self learning. She uses the face and voice of Mina Liao as a basis. As Echo learns, she probably will develop more personality. In theory if Mina Liao had been a man, Echo most likely would have presented as a man too bc Mina was a basis Echo used. But just like Orisa, Echo is not actually a sapient awakened omnic. She's like JARVIS, just ai.

If you want some canon sapient awakened omnics who are LGBT+: Lynx Seventeen uses they/them pronouns. "Nameless" from Null Sector, who was one of Ramattra's closest companions, rejects many aspects of human culture like name and gender it seems, uses they/them pronouns.

For more allegorical rep:
Aurora in Overwatch Declassified was confirmed to chose her own pronouns she/her. In Torbjörn's story arc with Bastion, Torbjörn went from calling Bastion it/its to he/him and seemingly Bastion went on to accept those he/him pronouns.

It can be inferred (because of Aurora) that most awakened omnics probably chose thier own pronouns too, which includes Ramattra, Zenyatta, Mondatta, Maximilien, Iggy, Susie, etc.

[shrewd pivot]

Easy fix if they actually gave a damn: write Pharah getting into an accident where she has to get new vocal chords. They could even add a slight robotic effect to the voice to sell the recast. That way the new VA doesn't have to re-record all lines, just record new lines under a robotic effect voice. Many series that had VA recasts explained it as a damaged vocal chords injury so lol nothing is stopping overwatch.

[peak escarp]

I don't think they'll recast her

I don't think they need to