#lore-discussion

1 messages · Page 227 of 1

shrewd pivot
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Agreed haha

peak escarp
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like Hanzo's lines about the Shimada coming back... he doesn't want them back

shrewd pivot
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Yeah. I am happy Hanzo is finally getting his '5 seasons and a movie' redemption arc tho with Kiriko lol. It will be interesting to see where that lands Hanzo over time.

fallow mantle
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He was one of the first/early recruits to Overwatch after the Crisis/original team iirc - and as the Crisis ended 26 years ago, Operation White Dome, which Emre was a part of, would be around this time - as Brigitte was named by Reinhardt as a result of the events of White Dome, and Brigitte is 25 years old. Therefore, Emre will be 44ish at the very least. Likely older than that as that'd mark him as 18 during White Dome, provided it takes place 26 years ago.

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Damn I am sick I'm sorry if that was incoherent rambling lmao

shrewd pivot
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Nono you're good! Thank you for pointing this out :)

fallow mantle
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Of course 😄

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If they make him any younger then I'm sure it'll get backlash and they'll up it, like they did with Sojourn

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Just let us have characters older than 30 and 40 again pls Blizzard

shrewd pivot
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Yeah fr!
I'm not sure how the birthdays line up. Hm. do we know around what months White dome occured in the year? If you do not know off the top of your head that's ok, no need to look it up. I can do that later ^^

fallow mantle
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I don't think we do?

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Picture of it, just says a summary of it

shrewd pivot
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And if Mercy IS 17 there, then Pharah is 12, most likely 13 bc of how birthdays line up.

But that does contradict the age of whitedome being 25ish years ago, bc 22 years ago ow2 Mercy was 17. Hm.

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And I presume Emre served for more than one year in the military to show his skill, so Emre is probably older than 18 in that art? (Considered they have 18 year olds serve in the military like Pharah, despite the fact she maybe could have served earlier)

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I will look at Declassified to see if there's any extra info about white dome.

fallow mantle
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I believe there is, can't remember exactly, but mine's in my cupboard somewhere lmao

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I know he appears in it

shrewd pivot
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No worries! When my friend gets back I will check :) ty for the pointer!

lyric chasm
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well, obviously Overwatch has a rating, but I don't see any potential for something unhealthy in regards to Freja and Emre in any case, they're adults and it's fine

shrewd pivot
# lyric chasm well, obviously Overwatch has a rating, but I don't see any potential for someth...

Respectfully, it depends ofc.
His official age will determine if its anything odd, can't really say much until he releases. And maybe, it's just one sided from Freja which is still a bit odd idk. It's more so the work/experience dynamic from the age gap that veers into "experienced superior and new recruit"

Freja was a fresh new recruit spotted by Ana at best 10-12 years ago (Freja at 22 to 24 bc of criminology degree, but she might have graduated earlier), and Emre had been working in overwatch as one of the first recruits prior to white dome so 25 years ago maybe.

The Pharah bio art had a retcon that updated Torbjörn's arm from metal to flesh, to show that the art took place prior to white dome, prior to about 25 years ago. Emre has to be atleast 18 there in the art, even IF the ages of Mercy being 17 are incorrect.

So yeah, Emre is probably in his 40s currently, regardless if the pharah bio art is 22 or 25 years ago. A 34 + 44 year old isn't too odd, but a 22 + 32 kinda is lol

lyric chasm
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I think we'll go in circles, but just to repeat one last time, if they are both adults, there is no moral judgement to be cast, sure power dynamics can be a thing and an influence but they remain adults and in control of their own actions (and is this kind of out of bounds in terms of discussion in this immediate context).

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out of bounds especially since even the romantic aspect of the relationship is just personal interpretation

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to comment a last thing about this I think it's a slippery slope to infantilize adults as to what they can or can't do with other adults, nothing specific to you, but a general behavior I see in fandoms over the years

shrewd pivot
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Yeah atp I hope the romantic subtext was just accidental and that the two are platonic only.

I would prefer to have Emre in his 40s.

shrewd pivot
# lyric chasm to comment a last thing about this I think it's a slippery slope to infantilize ...

Oh I agree. But like I said, I deem adulthood by bio development, not cultural rites of passage. 18 isn't actually a grown adult in human species. Bone growth, prefrontal cortex, that's in the 20s. Not that people cannot be accountable for actions at 18 ofc! But big life decisions are harder for teens to make because of decision making skills still developing. Thus why certain kinds of dynamics can be a touchy subject.

To swap the topic, that's why there's no qualms with the likes of Tracer being a poster girl. She's 26-28(2 year time accident gap iirc), a pilot in her career, grown adult lady. It's campy fun to have the pilot's poster girl be a litteral pilot and poster girl for overwatch haha. I enjoy that kind of playfulness in overwatch.

tribal seal
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Wait, is Doomfist dead?

shrewd pivot
brittle sky
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they have deemed that talon is too interesting a faction, so they are handing the reins off to a roman empire cosplaying nepo baby who can sell skins

lyric chasm
shrewd pivot
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Lolll yeah. It is pretty funny that Vendetta is essentially a nepo baby malding she didn't get to inherit her father's mafia empire.

I hope she develops into something... a bit more complex? Bc right now she's a very simple evil for overwatch to defeat ("bloodline superiority" villain philosophy)

atleast doomfist created a conversation with the characters/audience with his "Social Darwinism" evil philosophy. Like, if you beat Doomfist he still "wins" in a way because he WANTS survival of the fittest.

pastel stirrup
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why do ppl say that like she isn't anymore

shrewd pivot
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Tracer was kind of sidelined in promos these days, often Kiriko and now more so Juno show up more.

pastel stirrup
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team 4 called tracer the poster child like not even a few months back

shrewd pivot
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Tell that to the promo art, it's not that she isn't in overwatch merch, but she's alongside others now.

pastel stirrup
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loads of heroes are in promotional material

shrewd pivot
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From how I see it, Tracer was ow1 poster girl, then they tried to make Sojourn the poster girl of overwatch 2, but that focus then fell to Kiriko after PVE was canceled. Then once Juno launched, Juno shows up more in promo art than other new heroes like Freja, etc.

pastel stirrup
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i think u put too much importance on promo art

shrewd pivot
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That's what poster girl means tho, being the face of the game in promo art.

pastel stirrup
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not rlly
poster child just means someone who epitomises what the game is about

shrewd pivot
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By that definition, I agree with you then

pastel stirrup
lyric chasm
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she also encompasses the design and vibe of the thing she represents, and while we still have some of the sci fi stuff in the game, it feels like more and more designs lean into fantasy, folklore and magic

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im not against it, but I wish we remained on topic some times

pastel stirrup
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i think the fox spirit stuff is absurdly out of place in this game
everybody else's 'powers' are either tech or from the iris

shrewd pivot
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I personally define "poster child" (embodies the idea/heart of game, DVA is easily a poster child of overwatch just as much as Tracer is) different from "poster girl" (ie, pinup lady face of the game to look cute or cool or pretty, like Tracer is)

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I agree, overwatch being "fantasy with scifi twist!" or pulp fiction refs is peak overwatch.

Mercy is basically a priest but scifi. Cassidy is a western cowboy ref, Junkers madmax refs, Winston planet of the apes. Zenyatta as scifi is great worldbuilding.

The shimada dragons held fine to me because they are ornamental hard-light-ish weapons similar to Symmetra.

Kiriko’s kitsune possessing ppl isn't very scifi.

pastel stirrup
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or the magic healing

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or the teleporting through walls and leaving cherry blossoms

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it's like she's in the wrong game

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but idk

lyric chasm
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could be passed off as advanced tech

shrewd pivot
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Eh, Symmetra can canonically teleport.
Mercy can heal with beams of nano tech that looks like light.

Kiriko’s ofuda are no different than Baptiste's healing or Moira's healing when it comes to suspending disbelief.

lyric chasm
shrewd pivot
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Same, the scifi aspects are so fun

lyric chasm
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as Utlraviolet says, Cassidy and allat are there since the bginning

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but there was always the scifi thing

shrewd pivot
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I personally find it sad that Brigitte can be a "holy paladin but scifi", no need to make her call upon hardlight saint Peter to cast divine light to smite enemies,
while Kiriko... is the Shinto equivalent of a Nun with a gun lol. Miko Shrine Maidens in Shinto are believed to be able to be possessed by spirits, and Kiriko just... casually interacts with a (hologram?) kitsune spirit? and the suzu bell and ofuda are akin to having like... a legit holy cross and holy water on a hero like Brigitte.

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For sure, it's always been scifi. Specifically pulp fiction scifi.

Which is why Wuyang's botched lore hurts so bad. Wuxia stories were made during the same era, wuxia is chinese pulp fiction. Wuyang really should have been peak camp Wuxia like how Cassidy is peak camp Spaghetti Western.

brittle sky
# shrewd pivot I personally find it sad that Brigitte can be a "holy paladin but scifi", no nee...

I mean, Blizz clearly knows the can of worms that comes with making a western religion like, canonically tangible in the game. It endorses one religion over others, tacitly endorses anything anyone aligned with that group does, etc. They just, uh, don't realize they're doing the same thing when they endorse and give metaphysical legitimacy to an eastern religions, because idk, it's exotic, or magic, or animism.

shrewd pivot
# brittle sky I mean, Blizz clearly knows the can of worms that comes with making a western re...

Yeah. I hope when they say "No magic, just advanced technology" they understand that Wuxing is litterally alchemy. Like, philosophers stone transmutation alchemy, but a chinese alchemy of Wuxing. Chi, mana, soul, sacred geometry, that is magic.

Metaphysics don't really belong in overwatch, unless it's some kind of scifi super power akin to Sigma's, where the powers come from maths.

Both Lifeweaver and Sigma reference sacred geometry, but I hope that's like, scifi geometry of the universe (ie sigmas gravity powers) and not actually magic leylines and chi.

With a global roster, you absolutely do not want to canonize "one true religion" -- that alone would ruin stories like Illari mourning her people. Either none are outright confirmed (scifi) or everything is confirmed (magical fantasy).

spare fox
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you guys are also kind of projecting a western media lens onto the use of eastern religions like... eastern religions in eastern countries do not have the same double-edged wham that western religions due in western religions

pastel stirrup
brittle sky
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Like I don't mind Sigma, I don't even mind the Shambali with the Omnics because, its resemblance to strains of Buddhism aside, its metaphysical energy seem connected to a (soft) sci fi phenomona of omnic consciousness, the awakening, aurora, etc. But they seem to have a blind spot for 'cultural practices', so they do things like underdefine the tech of the Shimadas, are vague on Wuxing's tech to align it with old alchemy, or straight up saying Kiriko gets her superpowers from Shinto spirits.

spare fox
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you see buddhism, shinto, etc in eastern media as a neutral and it's just that... a neutral
whereas in western media, western/Abrahamic religions are always either one of two things: condemning how awful the religion and the followers are OR ramming it down the throat like The Passion or Narnia

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iif you see like a Catholic priest in western media, 99 times out a 100 that character is either reprehensible or unbelievably good... there's no neutrality with western media representation of religion. It needs to make commentary one way or the other about the religion at hand

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eastern media doesn't have that baggage

brittle sky
spare fox
brittle sky
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In the context of media, we are saying Shinto is real enough to give you metaphysical powers. That is saying that Shinto is real in the world of Overwatch, at least until they can invent an alternative justification for Kiriko.

shrewd pivot
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It's also very common in Western superhero media that animistic religions are not taken "seriously" and thus you get fully magical superheroes from those areas while Spiderman and Captain America and Iron man and the Hulk are roughly scifi based.

"Magical Asian" trope is unfortunately a stereotype in superhero media.

Like, I am very happy Zenyatta is a robot. If he was a human, the lore would get into awkward territory fast.

spare fox
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they never said her powers come from Shinto, tho

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personally, I think it's a form of unauthorized/underground hard light usage

brittle sky
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Her powers come from the fox spirit of the shrine her family tends.

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That has been the language they have consistently used for her powers.

spare fox
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hence why "only a shimada can wield the dragons"

brittle sky
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The fact that in Japan specifically there's not even a nod to an undergirding technology is a consistent oversight that was always a bit exoticizing, and in the case of Kiriko has some very weird implications on the reality of Overwatch.

spare fox
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but saying her fox spirit powers come from the shrine might be taking things a little too literally
her training and meditations she learned from Shinto/her traditions help her to wield the fox spirit properly... that's my theory

spare fox
brittle sky
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You can do plenty of theories, and if there is an explanation of her powers that is just filtered through her experience with (Shinto-coded) family traditions, great. But that is us doing Blizzard's work for them, and they really should give something about that rather than flirt with it being magic.

brittle sky
shrewd pivot
# spare fox they never said her powers come from Shinto, tho

She is quite litterally a Shinto Miko Shrine maiden with ofuda and suzu, and the only thing that cannot really be explained with scifi is the kitsune possessing non augmented organic humans. Zenyatta's ultimate, discord orbs and harmony orb, are said to be non canon and just game mechanics. In canon lore Zenyatta's orbs are just mysterious tech used as meditation orbs. But we see in Kiriko’s short, Kiriko can ult and the kitsune possessing the kid character well enough to use an axe proficiently. Kiriko’s kit is thus canon to overwatch lore, unlike Zenyatta's.

Her lore heavily pushes the idea of Shinto being canon, yet the likes of Brigitte, a legit "holy paladin but scifi", does not push the idea of Christianity being canon.

With a few tweaks Kiriko lore wouldn't be so bad, but as is it's not very scifi.

spare fox
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fair but giving us an info dump up front is kind of lazy storytelling. OW is an ongoing narrative so they want to leave some things to be thought about between lore drops

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just because they haven't explicitly said something doesn't mean they haven't thought about it

shrewd pivot
brittle sky
# spare fox fair but giving us an info dump up front is kind of lazy storytelling. OW is an ...

I'm not saying they should stop to technobabble at us. But we already have a plot relevant character who is the Shimada sword smith. Make it a plot point where the Hashimoto are trying to make Kirko's dad reveal the secrets of the Shimada power stuff, and in doing so nod both towards a tech behind the Shimada's powers and maybe nod towards what might be going on with Kiriko. I don't need a hard explanation for everything (how does hard light work? who cares!), but given that they've dressed this in eastern mysticism, they need to give something to undo that damage.

spare fox
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to me it's not so much dressed in eastern mysticism, but rather emphasizing the importance of the eastern religion/traditions even in the sci-fi future context, even when using new technology

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and that's basically one of kiriko's themes as well

shrewd pivot
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And i honestly dig that about kiriko's idea, melding the traditional with the new age. But imo her kitsune ai should have only been able to "possess" her via hardlight or something like a puppet, OR make it so that it's just an adrenaline rush for the ultimate, not the kitsune ai directing actions of non augmented organic humans.

spare fox
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we don't really know how the kitsune operates in the lore... gameplay isn't canon

shrewd pivot
spare fox
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ehhh... "possessing" idk it could just be an adrenaline rush

shrewd pivot
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And the heroes ascendant has the kitsune seem to be more than an ornamental weapon, it guides Kiriko.

shrewd pivot
# spare fox ehhh... "possessing" idk it could just be an adrenaline rush

In Shinto beliefs, Miko Shrine maiden are believed to be able to be possessed by spirits. Kiriko is a Shinto shrine maiden. Her grandma and her served the kitsune spirit shrine, and if you notice in the cinematic characters that have glowing blue eyes are usually the ones being "possessed" showing immense precision.

Adrenaline rushes could explain hyped up toughness, but the kid's axe throwing is precision.

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I mean, I would gladly accept the kitsune ai just giving an adrenaline rush, but it seems to be more than that in canon.

spare fox
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listen... I'm gonna be real here. I am truly tired of discussing to death Kiriko's lore. For some reason, Kiriko especially there are fans that just want to disregard what has been said, make their own assumptions and argue that those are facts, again while disregarding what has already been said. It's something about Kiriko that just rubs people the wrong way and then they come in here and complain about Kiriko ten times a week, they want to ignore canon while also making their own assumptions and declaring those canon and then pointing out the contradictions as a "gotcha" against Blizzard/OW's writers

shrewd pivot
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I mean, I dove into lore pretty heavily. It's not really a gotcha moment on my part, just a disappointment that Kiriko wasn't more polished bc her core idea is very compelling! Her "delinquent but actually a heart of gold" trope + kitsune mythos and kabuki actor + traditional meets new age miku shrine maiden IS a very fun idea.

If you ignore subtext, Kiriko is fine except for her age. But then you look at how Reaper souls, Mercy Rez, and Zenyatta ult + harmony/discord orbs were confirmed to be non canon. Yet, kiriko's kit is written as canon in lore?

It's a fair criticism imo.

but... I get how it can be tiring to hear it rehashed.

brittle sky
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More or less my take as well, Ultra. Though yeah, I'm sure it gets tiring to talk about it.

shrewd pivot
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I mean hey, maybe one day it will reveal the few unamed projects Mina Liao was working on happened to be an ai that the Shimadas turned into the kitsune or something.

In all seriousness tho, I honestly wonder if Mina's unnamed projects will even be explored further to showcase a new tech or new hero or something.

brittle sky
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I think there are absolutely interesting ways to shift Kiriko back to being sci fi coded - like maybe a fragment of one of the shut down god ai got out adapted some of the trappings of local customs to restructure its behavior or something

shrewd pivot
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Really any kind of repurposing of tech would do, plus the Shimada clan and Hashimoto clan deal in illegal weapons trade so it wouldn't be suprising to stumble into some unusual ai.

Until then, it is what it is.

brittle sky
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The new fusing with the old, it's on theme!

shrewd pivot
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For sure!

glad fox
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How does hashimoto differ from shimada? Both are criminal orgs right

shrewd pivot
# glad fox How does hashimoto differ from shimada? Both are criminal orgs right

Shimada clan was run by Hanzo and Genji’s family, they seemingly enforced order but...still cared for locals well being? Atleast that's what Kiriko stories stated.

The Hashimoto clan rivaled with the Shimada clan.

When Hanzo fled and Genji was presumed dead, no heir to the Shimada clan existed, and it faded.
This created a power vacuum, and the rival clan Hashimoto took control of previous Shimada territory. The Hashimoto clan enforced control while caring little for locals wellbeing. That's why Kiriko had to step up to protect the area from the Hashimoto.

dim horizon
shrewd pivot
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Yeah, directly inspired by Yakuza, according to the art books.

dim horizon
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Before the Kiriko short I believe everyone assumed the gangsters seen in 'Dragons' were Shimada goons.

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Including Blizz themselves, since IIRC "Shimada" NPCs appeared in the Heroes of the Storm Hanamura map and they looked identical to one of the Hashimoto goons.

peak escarp
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she volunteered with Overwatch while she was in university

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she wasn't fully recruited by Morrison until around 22-23

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Cassidy was also in Overwatch at age 17

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he's the same age as Mercy

shrewd pivot
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If the white dome incident occured 25 years ago, and the pharah bio art was before white dome as indicated by the Torbjörn arm being changed in the art, then Mercy would not be 17 in the art.

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39-25 = 14

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That is, assuming the white dome incident occured 25 years ago because Reinhardt named Brigitte after the white dome incident?

peak escarp
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that photo was "20 years ago" as of OW1

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so it would be 22 years ago now

cursive basin
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Are solider 76 n reaper ex lovers

shrewd pivot
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Nope

peak escarp
cursive basin
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Why do ppl say tht then

peak escarp
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the photo is post-White Dome, which is why it needed to be corrected

shrewd pivot
peak escarp
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it was first shared with Torbjorn's flesh arm, then corrected to his cybernetic arm

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what does white dome have to do with it?

shrewd pivot
peak escarp
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they're using the wrong version

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this one is correct

Ana_Overwatch_photo.webp
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according to Michael Chu at GDC 2017

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which is where we get the date and relative ages of Pharah and Mercy

shrewd pivot
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Ok pardon then, I drastically misremembered.

cursive basin
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Is Rams nemesis form canon

peak escarp
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not your fault, Team 4 keeps using the wrong art

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Reinhardt is huge in that art

peak escarp
shrewd pivot
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Right!

peak escarp
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Transformed into a living weapon, Genji joined Blackwatch and single-mindedly set about the task of dismantling his family's criminal empire. When this mission was complete, he moved on to more complex duties and even took part in the notorious Venice Incident, which led to Blackwatch’s public exposure and the team’s suspension.

shrewd pivot
peak escarp
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speaking of images that cause problems...

Overwatch_Awards.jpg
shrewd pivot
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Yeah that one is 100% not canon

peak escarp
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none of the ages are correct here

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Chu said it was "meant to evoke the feeling of heroes, rather than representing a specific moment"

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you really should watch Chu's GDC 2017 talk, if you can find it

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lots of good info about the early narrative design of Overwatch

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he also debunks the idea that Lucio was Canadian in early concepts,and that's why he likes hockey

shrewd pivot
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I'll look into it! I think I watched it once, but it was years ago.

tribal seal
azure flint
peak escarp
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here it is

peak escarp
shrewd pivot
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Ty for the link!

peak escarp
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and the guy on the left is Emre

azure flint
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emre has sure been through a lot

peak escarp
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yep

past copper
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If an Overwatch series was in the works, which animation style would you guys most favor? 2D anime, pseudo-anime, or filoni style?

shrewd pivot
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Okay so. Assuming Emre was 18 minimum to have enough time to showcase skill in the military to join overwatch. And white dome occured 25 years ago bc of Brigitte being named by Reinhardt after white dome. And the art is AFTER white dome. Emre would be like at minimum around 43 currently? And he's like 21 in the pharah bio art?

peak escarp
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sounds right

shrewd pivot
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I wonder when Freja joined overwatch 🤔

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Freja would be around 24 during the Venice incident, and Emre left prior to that.

Freja being 22 or 23 when joining overwatch is probably a fair guess? Unless she had advanced courses, then she could have joined at a younger age.

peak escarp
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that sounds reasonable

dry pebble
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I'm just watching the lore explanation of SVB

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How true is that source i want to ask

peak escarp
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I consulted on that video

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he did a good job on it

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but I felt like he didn't go into enough detail

dry pebble
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Like

peak escarp
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Hammeh's lore video is better

dry pebble
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I also felt that, the video is quite passes fast during events. and doesn't informs about certain conflicts nor character conservaties

peak escarp
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yeah that's what I mean

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he skips over a lot

dry pebble
peak escarp
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SVB's only has more views because he has a bigger audience

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more views doesn't mean better

dry pebble
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Doctor i want to ask what is the exact deal with Tracer's chronal crisis

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Is she lost in time or going back and forth with it

peak escarp
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she's out of sync with normal time

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her chronal accelerator (made by Winston) anchors her to the timeline, but it also allows her to go faster or jump back a few seconds

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she can't go far back in time, and time for everyone else around her still moves forward normally

dry pebble
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What does out of sync exactly means

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Like is she is more in the future or past without accelerator

peak escarp
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imagine a marble rolling down a track - you are the marble and the track is time

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Tracer is a marble that is bouncing in and out of the track at random

dry pebble
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Good example Doctor

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I understand now

peak escarp
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I was going to compare it to tuning the radio, but nobody uses the radio anymore

dry pebble
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We actually have one

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Crazy some of the FMs still running some good music

dry pebble
peak escarp
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well then, Tracer's situation is like spinning the dial on the radio - sometimes you'll come across a station you can hear, sometimes it will be static

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and sometimes she would get close but not quite, and be basically a ghost - kinda like being on 95.6 when you're looking for 95.3

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you can hear the station, but there's static

dry pebble
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This is a good example for her POV, previous one is good to describe her chronal situation

peak escarp
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her chronal accelerator is like having channel preset buttons

dry pebble
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For Marble, increasing the pressure of gravity to keep it on track

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Talking of Gravity are you also avaliable to describe the situation of Sigma

peak escarp
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his is less clear

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he was doing an experiment to open a tiny black hole and it was only open for a fraction of a second, but it basically tore his mind apart and cause gravitic anomalies around him

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he was locked away in an asylum in New Mexico until Reaper and Sombra stole him away

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it's not really clear how that works or what Sigma experiences

dry pebble
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How about Reaper? I assume he is more akin being a Deadpool like in terms of cell but mist is what confusing me

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Rapidly regenerating cells

peak escarp
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to start with, Reyes was a member of the US military's Soldier Enhancement Program (same as Soldier: 76 aka Jack Morrison)

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later in life, he had some kind of genetic questions/issues that he needed help with, so he recruited Moira to help him

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she took it further, giving him the ability to turn into smoke

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when he was almost killed in the Swiss HQ explosion, Moira saved him and gave him a mega dose of whatever gave him smoke powers

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he's now in a constant state of decay and regeneration where his smoke powers keep trying to break down his cells while the SEP regeneration keeps trying to rebuild him

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which leaves him in constant pain

dry pebble
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More akin to wolverine i assume?

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In terms of regenerating

peak escarp
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kinda

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also, his wraith form is something he has to actively do, it's not an automatic ability

dry pebble
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Is there a certain reason why recent characters doesnt have this much of a features in their character besides weapons

peak escarp
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what do you mean?

dry pebble
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Newly released characters of Overwatch isn't equipped with the genetic, power or anything features they have in theirselves besides their weapons

peak escarp
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most of the OW1 heroes don't have special powers either

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Reaper and Tracer are exceptions

dry pebble
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But you can't say OW1 isn't near less interesting compared to OW2

peak escarp
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plenty of the OW2 heroes have been interesting

dry pebble
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To be fair with you dock i also miss when the cast of newly additions was

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Not pretty looking humans

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I'm talking too substintial but OW had human designs like Roadhog, Reaper

peak escarp
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what about Hazard

dry pebble
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Mostly just fine

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I liked him concept art better

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I like Junkerqueen

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I don't like Wuyang

dry pebble
peak escarp
#

he should be interesting

dry pebble
#

His design looks like hazard

peak escarp
#

like one what

dry pebble
#

Keyboard auto corrected my sentence

#

For some shit reason

#

Emre's design isn't that good of a thing as the design doesn't showcase anything about him being brainwashed human cyborg

peak escarp
#

we don't know what he is

dry pebble
#

A helmet or anything would've helped

peak escarp
#

who says he's brainwashed?

dry pebble
#

Current the fighting sequence he was pretty much out of sentience of his own

peak escarp
#

that could just be something he does when he's locked in

dry pebble
#

I guess

#

I still think his design for a long awaited hero doesn't wealths the expectations

shy dagger
dry pebble
#

He became playable in second

#

Still Ramattra is one of best designs, corrupt moses..

shy dagger
dry pebble
#

Fair

dry pebble
#

And i hate to see Emre apart of it cause even him having a cool concept i wish he had some sort of thing within its head part

#

Or something differs him around, he looks like weaker Hazard.

peak escarp
#

how is he weaker

shy dagger
#

But, not like that means anything

shy dagger
#

Like the description of the hero that is unique and not overly attractive

#

So does venture

dry pebble
#

It is the same shape of Hazard's

shy dagger
dry pebble
#

I thought designs debut in comics are meant to be final

shy dagger
dry pebble
#

If that so there's much i want in Emre to be changed

shy dagger
#

But take for instance an example like Anarn. Her comic and animation model are different

peak escarp
#

how are these the same?

image.png Hazard_concept.png
thorny hollow
#

Is Talon going to be permannet brand for OW2 now

thorny hollow
opaque tundra
#

Is it the 6 pack that’s tripping people up

peak escarp
#

not everyone can be as hot as Hazard

dry pebble
thorny hollow
opaque tundra
#

All the fucking OW2 dudes have that same 6 pack it’s getting ridiculous

thorny hollow
#

Hazard is mid

thorny hollow
dry pebble
dry pebble
#

No because lead designer really confirmed the designs of OW2 will be followed to be attractice sucks

peak escarp
#

source?

opaque tundra
#

The oddballs incident

peak escarp
#

that doesn't mean every hero has to be attractive

#

"We always will approach making Overwatch heroes… aspirational in some sense," said Tan. "They're aspirational in their physique, in their expertise at what they do, and just being really cool heroes that we can look up to."

#

aspirational doesn't have to mean physically attractive

spare fox
#

doomers taking things out of context and then using them to get mad again yawwwwn

dry pebble
#

When does the cinematic coming out

brittle sky
# peak escarp aspirational doesn't have to mean physically attractive

Hey Doc - don't think it's unfair to see aspirational as including attractiveness. They list physique as the first version of that, and while it's very possible to be apirational in just expertise or other matters, contextually it fits that its saying 'we're going to embody ideals, including aesthetic ones'. Combined with the actual evidence of their output, and while I hope they don't feel every hero has to be attractive, there is certainly a default, and what you can probably call a pretty narrow default, for what looks fit that ...aspirational look

peak escarp
#

no, but it doesn't specifically mean "every hero from now on will be good looking"

shrewd pivot
peak escarp
#

aspirational can be physically attractive, but it can also be powerful or cool or famous

shrewd pivot
#

I find Wuyang's 3d model physique a bit concerning, not aspiring. He looks extremely dehydrated with how intense the muscle detail is. Cassidy, Hanzo, etc are fit but not dehydrated. Same with Widowmaker and Mercy, they look fit but not dehydrated. Juno's arms look dehydrated, so do Kiriko’s knees. I imagine it's a new artstyle or something.

JunkerQueen atleast makes sense to look dehydrated bc all the Junkers have some form of irradiated sickly look.

brittle sky
# peak escarp no, but it doesn't *specifically* mean "every hero from now on will be good look...

True. You know I've been disappointed/skeptical of there recent output compromising articulating character or theme in the name of aesthetic appeal, but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, even if the prevailing trends have pushed recent characters more towards conventionally appealing versions of themselves. I think it can both be true we'll maybe get someone who's less conventional (the prophesized oddball and all that), and that the trends point to that being a narrower field of late than further back.

shy dagger
shrewd pivot
#

I mean, I think we can all agree Hazard's "cyberpunk body modder" fantasy could have pushed more than his final design. Punk was never about being conventional, it's about being visually loud. I wish he had more unconventional prosthesis like crab legs or a spine tail or a metal jaw. Actually explore the worldbuilding for the phreaks and body mod possibilities.

brittle sky
# shy dagger The only common thing I see is mechanics..which isn’t uncommon for a sci-fi game

I don't think those two are massively similar, but I do think they both have swept back hair with a few bangs poking out, aspects that imitate sideburns/chin strap (an actual chin strap for emre, the cybernetics for haz), asymmetry between cybernetic(?) and human arms, and visible abs. There are certain things you could point to as similar, even if I don't find them identical by any means.

brittle sky
# shrewd pivot I mean, I think we can all agree Hazard's "cyberpunk body modder" fantasy could ...

I've said elsewhere (sorry for folks I share servers with for any repeats), but yeah, definitely could have more weird or disconcerting cybernetics to articulate the radical position of him and the phreaks for modification, and have him have more unique or grungey features to speak to punk sensibilities - things like his spotless face, pristine hair, and cut physique definintely signal 'rock star celeb' or 'total poser' rather than 'hardcore punk guerilla'.

peak escarp
#

he still has to fit in with the Overwatch aesthetic, which is generally cleaner (heroes who should be covered in scars don't have any, or have one token scar in a cool place)

shrewd pivot
#

I mean. Is there a good reason to make Hazard have blonde hair instead of punk green?

#

Zarya has dyed pink hair, sombra has dyed purple hair. It's not even unusual on the roster

peak escarp
#

it's just what the artist chose

shrewd pivot
#

Which is the point here, that Hazard's art design didn't push the "cyberpunk body modder" aspect far enough.

brittle sky
#

It's not like the early concept art was a bad fit for ow aesthetics

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah. Or that almost finished concept of Hazard that was basically the same but with the metal jaw and green hair. Honestly a metal jaw would have made Hazard more unique on the roster.

I just don't get why they didn't go all out on showcasing world building potential for bodymods on the Phreaks since we have the likes of Bastion and Orisa and DVA's mech already on the roster, three unconventional designs with unique 'body types' so to speak.

#

Like idk JunkerQueen reads as more "punk" to me than Hazard does, and that's an issue imo.

lyric chasm
#

I just want more omnics

#

But they said it wasnt their focus iirc

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah I would like to see an effeminate awakened omnic on the Roster one day, since Echo and Orisa are ai. Only Bastion, Ramattra, and Zenyatta are awakened omnics.

shrewd pivot
# lyric chasm But they said it wasnt their focus iirc

I hope not. ;_; I got into overwatch because the omnic lore was cool.

It's funny because technically devs have a lore reason to avoiding making future omnic heroes (Ramattra subjugated many omnics and they are now chilling in the arctic)

peak escarp
#

they never said more omnic heroes were off the table

shrewd pivot
#

Yay

peak escarp
#

people just assume that any omnic hero would automatically be in the "oddball" category

shrewd pivot
#

I mean, unless they use a civilian omnic, it is pretty oddball/unconventional for a design to have an omnic. Even ai. Even though Echo is "conventional" she has a very uncanny aspect and an "oddball" kit of copying hero ults which was an exciting shakeup to gameplay.

peak escarp
#

being an omnic isn't what makes Zenyatta unconventional, it's his powers

#

he's as basic as an omnic gets

shrewd pivot
#

I feel like him being a robot monk is apart of his unconventional design tho, it influences his behavior and his lore is unique. A human with Zenyatta's powers would actually be much more archetypical as a fighting monk class.

peak escarp
#

how many magic monks do you know?

shy dagger
brittle sky
#

I too wish we got more omnics (to the extent that most the cast released in ow2 would be better served by just... releasing any omnic instead), but if there was any time they should have been releasing omnics, it should have been the big crisis done by omnics targetted at omnics, over the state of omnic relations in the world. And we got... the one guy.

shrewd pivot
peak escarp
#

having magic (or tech that looks like magic) is what makes Zenyatta an oddball - if he was a human monk with magitech powers, he's still be an oddball

shrewd pivot
#

I feel him being a robot monk attached to the greater lore of aurora, a robot that entertains the philosophy of humanity, definitely differs him from like. Human Wuxia Taoist monks that have similar powers. Being a cyber monk is apart of his camp.

brittle sky
peak escarp
shrewd pivot
#

Wuyang is. A failed attempt at wuxia. It's very bad.

peak escarp
#

why failed?

brittle sky
peak escarp
#

when the description is "soldiers, scientists and oddities", yes

brittle sky
shrewd pivot
# peak escarp why failed?

In Wuxing, no element is "better" -- the point is harmony between elements. When one element is too strong it is believed to cause sickness. Fire college should not be more prestigious than water college if it was a Wuxing philosophy university.

In Wuxing, Water is the color black and Wood element is blue/green. Like, they didn't even try. Not even a dark blue for Water college.

In Wuxing, as well as the wuxia and the "cultivation genre" all elements represent a philosophy. Practioners often embody such philosophy. It's even seen in martial arts. Fire tiger, Water serpent, earth mantis, metal monkey, wood (in wuxing it includes wind) crane. Fire college being the only college to do martial arts is ridiculous and antithetical to Wuxing teachings.

Wuxia stems from a collection of chinese pulp fiction stories that have been retold through the decades. Things you might associate from anime (DBZ, etc), stem from wuxia. Starwars is westernized Wuxia. Etc.

Wuyang was going to be based on Sun Wukong from "Journey to the West", but then he was changed to being based on Guo Jing from "The Return of the Condor heroes" once they recieved feedback about the Wukong inspiration not being the best idea. Yet he still has Sun Wukong staff & cloud riding, etc. It reads as scuffed.

brittle sky
peak escarp
#

I don't know much about Wuxia

#

...that wasn't an invitation to explain it to me

shrewd pivot
# peak escarp I don't know much about Wuxia

I HIGHLY recommend it. I was shocked at how much the wuxia genre has influenced media like video games (level systems and books being level up items), animation (anime tropes), movies(practical effects, campy fight sequences). I like star wars and star wars is very wuxia.

I like Wuxia because unlike other fantasy stories that have "races" that determine power level (elves, humans, etc), in wuxia anything that "cultivates" (studies wuxing texts, meditates, practices martial arts, learns to control chi) can become a powerful being, even objects and animals! It makes for a very fun story. Most wuxia is very brutal tho lol. It's like wild west cowboy shoot outs meet the wizard wars lol. Lots of fun and creative practical effects too in movies!

#

"Kung fu hustle" is actually a great movie to understand wuxia camp, even tho it's a gong fu movie. (Wuxia has more fantasy elements than gong fu which is more grounded in reality. Think Jackie Chan choreography or Bruce Lee)
Mama Hong is a direct reference to the land lady from Kung fu hustle.

peak escarp
#

I am aware of that

#

which is why she will never be a hero

brittle sky
#

(I kid, obviously star wars is very wuxia)

shrewd pivot
#

Haha

peak escarp
#

you and Pete have a lot in common

#

you both like to answer simple questions with college-level essays with perfect punctuation

shrewd pivot
#

I mean. I am passionate about art and would like to share the joy I have about wuxia. You asked, so I wanted to explain properly.

shrewd pivot
peak escarp
#

he was originally a Chris Metzen Starcraft OC

brittle sky
#

Wasn't 76 also a Metzen OC?

peak escarp
peak escarp
#

Metzen was one of the masterminds behind Overwatch's conception

shrewd pivot
#

And Mama Hong can be tweaked into a hero design too just like Cassidy and Soldier76 were.

I mean, devs directly said Pharah was inspired by Ironman. It's not completely out of the equation to have more cinema ref characters.

peak escarp
#

very loosely

brittle sky
#

Real glad his pauldron didn't make it further into development.

peak escarp
#

yeahhh

#

dodged a bullet on that one

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah.

#

I mean... we got JunkerQueen in overwatch 2. That's extremely madmaxy.

peak escarp
#

fair

brittle sky
#

Junkers in general is just the hilarity of 'mad max apocalypse, but just in australia' (and yes, not even most of australia)

shrewd pivot
#

Overwatch is based on pulp fiction and cinema refs for characters. I love the camp. Emre leans into it as a sleeper agent or maybe Bucky Barnes Winter Soldier situation.

#

Yeah I love the junkers

peak escarp
#

if only we already had a sleeper agent situation they could fill in lore about rather than making a new one

shrewd pivot
#

Real.

#

Lol

brittle sky
#

Just stop dropping random teenagers and start introducing gambler spy Burnes and charismatic ape clan leader Hypatia.

shrewd pivot
#

Widowmaker being retconned (or rather, clarified?) into willing joining Talon was an odd choice imo.

peak escarp
#

top of my lore wishlist is a story/novel/comic/ANYTHING about Widowmaker's backstory and especially her kidnapping and conditioning

#

bonus points if we get anything about her personality before the conditioning, her career as a ballerina or her relationship with Gerard

brittle sky
peak escarp
#

I like that she is given some agency

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah it confuses me because. It would be like getting a person addicted to a drug if the brainwashing included making the thrill of the kill that intense. Of course Widow would go back to Talon to feel that high again. She didn't really have free will there if its like an addiction high.

peak escarp
#

it's not clear if the thrill of killing came from the conditioning or if it was something she had all along that was just unlocked by her first kill

shrewd pivot
#

That's fair I guess. Very french film noir femme fatale of Widow lol

brittle sky
# peak escarp I like that she is given some agency

Making her not purely a skinner boxed murder doll is likely wise. But yes, exploring her life before, and what might be emerging from her totally not cracking conditioning would be a good story. Hell, don't think they'll do it, but if they needed a perspective character for any upcoming Talon internal conflict, she'd be a pretty fascinating one.

peak escarp
#

if they showed her as a cutthroat ballerina, maybe that second option could be viable

brittle sky
#

I don't think having her have just buried like, serial killer murder jollies unrelated to her trauma and conditioning would make too much sense.

peak escarp
#

also, I really hate the common belief in the community that Gerard somehow deserved what he got because he was a bad husband or abusive or whatever

#

there's no evidence of that

brittle sky
#

There's no evidence, but I don't blame anyone exploring the idea that Gerard was an imperfect husband as opposed to just presuming they were a perfect romantic couple. They're french, after all, the most french thing would be they're a deeply complex, flawed relationship between complex, flawed people, and that making the eventual conditioned murder all the more tragic.

peak escarp
#

yeah but saying he deserves it is kinda absolving her of the crime

#

can't they just let her be a villain?

brittle sky
#

Oh, sure, seeking to make him bad to try to woobify her actions is boring

shrewd pivot
#

Being a professional ballerina is also very intense. Her family is rich enough to have an estate. For all we know Widowmaker could have felt trapped in her life, with Talon giving her a way out to 'live more freely'?

I personally like the idea of Widowmaker being brainwashed but her true self struggling underneath, which causes Moira to do check ins. Old film noir is actually a very sexist media, so it's sort of a meta thing to have Widow trying to not be the perfect Ballerina nor evil femme fatale others want her to be. Sigma is also being used, so it's not an unfounded idea of Talon using agents.

But if canon says Widowmaker chose to join, so be it. I just feel it's still ignoring the fact she was brainwashed and that kind of implies subliminal influence even when not in sleeper agent mode. Idk

#

And yeah Widowmaker did love Gerard in canon. I can't imagine he would canonly be so bad as to deserve death though.

brittle sky
#

Though extending that to justify every kill she makes "yeah, the mlk monk robot was actually, uh... a habitual puppy kicker!"

shrewd pivot
#

I still am suprised at the restraint Ramattra has if he knows Widowmaker killed Mondatta. He is very cordial with her in dialog.

brittle sky
#

he was by that point convinced Mondatta was being a soperific convincing omnics to accept a slow death. There's a no zero chance he was fine with the assassination (though the more interesting choice is he was still shocked and angered, for all his distate for Mondatta's nonaction)

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah. Like Ramattra's feelings about Mondatta's death are definitely complicated but Ramattra seems the type to be a bit more idk. Vengeful? Like more sassy towards Widowmaker if anything. She chose to assassinate Mondatta on a whim, she wasn't ordered too. That has to sting.

peak escarp
#

in his short story Ramattra felt like Mondatta should be punished for betraying him

brittle sky
shrewd pivot
# peak escarp in his short story Ramattra felt like Mondatta should be punished for betraying ...

iirc ram then went on to say he will save omnics, even if they "don't deserve to be saved". He felt betrayed and idk it reads more like anger/mourning/panic towards the fear of omnics facing oppression/extinction than Ramattra directly wanting to kill Mondatta? Like he might feel Mondatta was a lost cause, but I don't think he would happily pat the back of Mondatta's killer or anything either lol

shrewd pivot
#

Also im sorry if I accidentally pinged. I will try to be mindful of that before replying mbmb.

brittle sky
#

Doomfist was in prison, but they don't actually say she wasn't under orders. They just said 'hey, someone popped mondatta', 'yeah, it was lacroix'

shrewd pivot
#

And hey. If anyone wants to info dump about Ramattra im all ears eyes and focus lol. I think Ramattra's general concept as "an antagonist" but not an evil villain is very compelling. (Atleast, his writer said Ramattra was intended as an antagonist but not evil villain)

#

Ah okay. Mb

brittle sky
#

I mean, the biggest thing informing Ramattra is black civil rights leaders (he quotes either Malcom X or MLK's letter from a birmingham jail like half the time he opens his mouth), and his motive (we are a unique, single generation being wiped out by the apathy, exploitation, and misplaced hatred of humanity) is all quite compelling. He's basically Omnic Magneto, and like Magneto whether he is villain, antivillain, or what comes down to how badily his writing gets botched.

shrewd pivot
#

He quotes many historical figures tbf. I personally don't like to compare omnics (no soul built for labor, hivemind controlled to attack humanity, then hivemind woke up with free will) to any irl human groups bc the allegory is not tasteful. But I understand in overwatch there are parallels written into canon.

Ramattra isn't really Magneto tho imo. Magneto is a supremacist. Ramattra just wants to prevent omnic extinction, he isn't necessarily trying to exterminate all humans himself. He respects life like Ganymede, Wreckingball, and even "helpful humans" like Baptiste.

rare trail
#

i mean magento is lowk only a supremacist when they write magento kinda shitty

brittle sky
#

yeah that

rare trail
#

or at least magneto doesnt start out as a supremacist and like eventually gets there after being oppressed by humans for like 60+ years

#

and the holocaust would inform a lot of his viewpoints

#

idk if magneto really tries to exterminate humans

#

i mean hes like not doing his best to spare them but his goal isnt genocide

brittle sky
#

they pull that in lazier plots

shrewd pivot
rare trail
#

why

#

parallels to irl civil rights issues are like the entire point of the omnics

shrewd pivot
brittle sky
#

I think any narrative analogue can only go so far, but omnics are very much positioned as the perrenial 'other' of the overwatch world, and the baseline of 'we had a robot war, and then we had a truce and we're sorting it out' remains one of ow's most fascinating narrative choices.

rare trail
#

yeah its an allegory its not 1 to 1

#

thats the point twin

peak escarp
#

omnics are difficult because they are both the purpetrators and the victims

shrewd pivot
#

Goose, I see it less as a direct allegory to any specific irl group, and instead more of an allegory of how humanity as a whole mistreats itself. How human hubris (Mina Liao) can lead to unintended consequences. Etc

rare trail
#

i mean thats fair but there is in text evidence that the intended allegory is black civil rights issues

#

particularly malcolm x vs mlk with ram vs zen/mondotta

brittle sky
# shrewd pivot The allegory of omnics as they are in canon veers into bigoted conspiracy if app...

Sure, just like mutants fall apart as an analogy for minorities of any sort - there might be a reason to keep track of people who can melt people with their minds. That's also possibly why omnics - the choosing, conscious beings - were retconned as blameless for the crisis, mere puppets whose awakening ended the crisis - while people would see them as the face of the crisis, the very first conscious choice the vast majority of omnics made was not to be humanity's enemies - to head off any conspiratorial aspects.

rare trail
#

wait retconned?

#

was there ever a time in lore before anubis/

#

?

brittle sky
#

clarified, but given the shape of what we knew of the crisis, especially with holdouts (the cyberians, the gwishin), it's quite likely they shifted the omnic's role and culpibility therein over time

peak escarp
#

during OW1, all that was known about the omnic crisis was that Anubis took control of omnics and attacked - it was an in-universe mystery as to why

#

with the OW2 lore update, we know why Anubis rebelled

rare trail
#

idk its very weird like six said given they were a military force who committed oppresseion before and are now the victims of oppression

#

theres not really any minority group i can think of that previously held power and is now being "punished" via oppression from the current group in power

brittle sky
# rare trail particularly malcolm x vs mlk with ram vs zen/mondotta

(agree with the larger comparison, but obviously that binary of malcom vs. martin results largely from the shallow, simplified vision of each leader, but just the fact that rammatra's rage against the impassive moderate begging for incrementalism in reflections is straight ripped from martin luther king's letters, which makes it funny)

rare trail
#

i mean like i guess as an allegory for forgiving soldiers from previous wars like idk germans or japanese for ww2 stuff

rare trail
brittle sky
peak escarp
#

it is pretty funny though

rare trail
#

malcolm x and mlk are definitely simplified in a lot of schooling

brittle sky
peak escarp
#

they put an AI in charge of keeping the environment safe and the AI decides the biggest threat to the environment is humans

fossil wren
shrewd pivot
# rare trail particularly malcolm x vs mlk with ram vs zen/mondotta

Again, I feel deeply uncomfortable DIRECTLY comparing any irl victims of warcrimes to fictional robots that were mindless machines built for labor that hivemind attacked and then woke up with free will.

The allegory is that humanity oppresses innocent beings that had no control over being born into such a situation.
But since omnics can be hacked, it creates a reasonable reason for humans to be wary. Unlike irl humans who cannot just be hivemind hacked into evil nor are they made of metal which can easily overpower any human lol.

rare trail
fossil wren
peak escarp
#

no I totally agree with Anubis

fossil wren
#

It's funny that his idea of saving the environment is a massive war of extermination

rare trail
# rare trail you can feel uncomfortable doing that, that is the intended allegory

im not uncomfortable doing that because allegories arent meant to be 1 to 1, as coarsehair said earlier, there are valid reasons for tracking mutants that are effectively weapons of mass destruction, i dont think that weakens mutants as an allegory for minorities just like i dont think certain qualities of omnics make them necessarily bad allegories

peak escarp
#

it's just funny how often we see the plotline of "humans create AI, AI decides humans are bad and tries to exterminate them" in fiction

fossil wren
peak escarp
#

and yet people in real life continually become more and more dependent on AI

peak escarp
brittle sky
rare trail
#

whats

#

the daisy diasy one

#

space odyssey 2001? is that the movie

peak escarp
#

yes

rare trail
#

yeye

#

walle is kinda like that as well

peak escarp
#

and that was in what, the 60s?

rare trail
#

i feel like the villain in walle is kinda lame

fossil wren
peak escarp
#

people have known depending on AI is bad since before AI was a thing

rare trail
#

but also that would be a lot to add and to explain to kids so ig idk

brittle sky
rare trail
#

i lowk forget the plot of tha tmovie

fossil wren
peak escarp
#

also obligatory Fuck Ted Faro

rare trail
#

who

#

"Sometimes, to protect innocents, innocents have to die."
―Ted Faro[1][2]

#

thats so tough

peak escarp
#

character from Horizon who was responsible for the AI apocalypse AND for deleting the sum of human knowledge so future humans wouldn't know it was his fault

rare trail
#

oh

fossil wren
peak escarp
#

a tech billionaire with more money than sense... that plotline hit real close to home in recent years

brittle sky
#

So one of the tricky things of any allegory for "how does the majority set aside its fear/hatred/cruelty for the other" is it usually needs to find a reason to find reasonable cause for that fear or hate, because while actual bigotry is irrational and baseless and stupid, it doesn't feel that way within that culture or tradition. So when you give omnic or mutant style "hey there's real cause for this" it risks justifying conspiratorial shit by association, but if you do present a world where it's based on nothing and random hatred you risk people go "what pointless, senseless bigotry. Unlike our real world hatred of (insert whatever minority group - usually the romani), THAT'S founded and justified bigotry"!

shrewd pivot
# rare trail i mean like i guess as an allegory for forgiving soldiers from previous wars lik...

Um. I would like to believe the ow2 writers are not that deeply disturbed to make omnics (built for labor no soul, hivemind woke up) a direct allegory for black communities or holocaust survivors. Nor should omnics EVER be an allegory for "forgiving" German or Japanese soldiers that committed warcrimes in ww2. That would be beyond distasteful.

Humans don't get hivemind hacked, they make choices.
Baptiste is a prime example overwatch writers understand this, because Baptiste chose to stop the cycle of violence.
Omnics are fundamentally innocent when awakened, and the omnics that chose to stop fighting are still innocent. Not at ALL appropriate to be comparable to irl ww2 soldiers. Goodness gracious.

shrewd pivot
brittle sky
#

Gavin something fuhries?

fossil wren
#

I have to play the Horizon saga someday

peak escarp
#

yeah that's the guy

#

definitely play Horizon

#

fantastic series

#

my current favourite

#

I'm eagerly awaiting the third game in the trilogy

brittle sky
#

Man, we really can't hold onto our writers. Just fire the c suite, dedicate their money to getting Gavin and crash wong back

fossil wren
#

It's good to see that recent events have brought more people to this channel

brittle sky
#

More places to be grumpy about the teenybopper brigade actively supplanting more interesting characters, hooray!

rare trail
# shrewd pivot Um. I would like to believe the ow2 writers are not that deeply disturbed to mak...

a direct allegory doesnt mean its 1 to 1, thats not the point of an allegory, if they wanted to make it 1 to 1, they would just make a story about that issue
no one said specifically soldiers who committed warcrimes, just soldiers in general, lots of stories have been made about others forgiving soldiers or soldiers forgiving themselves for what they did in war, idk why an allegory for that is inherently distasteful? i feel like thats just a lack of imagination twin
soldiers after war arent directly the same as omnics post awakening, thast why it would be an allegory, allegories are not 1 to 1 thats not the point

#

also like

#

omnics do have souls post awakening

#

i mean i think theres evidence for that

shrewd pivot
# brittle sky So one of the tricky things of any allegory for "how does the majority set aside...

Yeah and my issue with that, is humans really are just humans.

By making stories like "but what if the bigotry towards this minority actually WAS justified bc XYZ?" it only reinforces the idea that bigotry is logical, when it isn't. It appeals to bigoted people and they will unironically nod along. It does nothing to stop the spread of bigotry, only reinforce it. The point should be to show bigotry against minorities is bad in an "optumistic future" like overwatch, not logical thing to do. Atleast, I would hope overwatch isn't trying to say bigotry is logical lol.

Also ty for not using the slur and using the term Romani.

brittle sky
shrewd pivot
# rare trail a direct allegory doesnt mean its 1 to 1, thats not the point of an allegory, if...

Stories that try to brush aside a soldier's complicity in warcrimes does not belong in an optumistic future story like overwatch.

There is nothing optumistic about people not being held accountable for warcrimes. Again, I point to Baptiste's story to show that the ow writers understand this, Baptiste isn't absolved, he had to make choices to change to stop the cycle of violence. I am trying to keep this on topic but still following server rules, pardon if its too intensely worded.

brittle sky
#

As corny and flawed and certainly imperfect as products like xmen are, they do actually succeed (at certain times in certain forms) in having interesting points that, by not directly being about x social issue but having solid and purposeful applicability to x social issue, does a good job about telling stories about that, and I've seen it firsthand allow people to click and go 'oh wait, i've been thinking about it wrong, huh?' or expand their empathy in ways they wouldn't.

#

not as a tool for representing the experience of whatever marginalized group (there should, y'know, be narratives about that group for that), but to get people to challenge their presumptions and interrogate the power structures they presume.

#

applicability not allegory, and all that

shrewd pivot
#

Well sure! But I think it's ok for series to also just. Directly tackle topics too. Like I didn't expect Hazard's story to tackle ableism and how veterans are neglected, but it did.

brittle sky
#

Sure. Though i don't think overwatch will every bring up most -isms or real world bigotries, both because that would harsh its optimistic vibes (and more cynically that means they have to definitively come out against such -isms, which might hurt their sales in whatever markets)

shrewd pivot
#

I mean. They directly have Sojourn face ableism in her novel.

Hazard faces ableism in his story.

A blurp about Ana even discussed sexism in her hiring in Declassified (asserting she was fit for the job)

#

The future definitely is more accepting of others in overwatch tho, I agree.

rare trail
#

stories like the things they carried cover the guilt felt by real soldiers even if they were doing what they were told and completely within the purview of the law and their commands

shrewd pivot
rare trail
tough egret
#

Any new spark of a chance ow2 getting an animated series?

rare trail
#

nahh probably not

#

iirc they said new cinematics with s21

tough egret
#

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

#

I promise you they'd get so much support and profit prolly if they did an animated series

#

I get they cautious and doubtful after the whole Netflix poaching thing, but pleeaaaaseeee

shrewd pivot
# rare trail not all german and japanese soldiers committed war crimes

Then... please specify you mean the German and Japanese soldiers that did not commit warcrimes and did not have complicity in such things next time? You don't just bring up such specific groups vaguely without the heavy implication of including complicit soldiers.

I'm a bit uncomfortable so I will leave the topic at that.

tough egret
#

LoL got an animated series
Ow2, follow their footsteps

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah an animated overwatch series would be amazing.

rare trail
#

also like i think theres an argument that by being in the army during that time, they are somewhat complicit in what the army was doing even if they werent themselves directly doing the war crimes, that doesnt make them necessarily bad people, its just a very complicated issue with a lot of layers

#

like im sure omnics would feel bad about what they did and the people they killed during the war even considering they werent in control of their actions

#

iirc zen has voicelines kinda relating to this kinda thing

shrewd pivot
#

I said I was uncomfortable with the topic. Please stop. Please understand many Germans in ww2 were still Nazis.

I have German + Swedish/Norwegian on one side, and Xiotian Greek + Romani ancestry on the other. I think I know what I am talking about.

You brought up that omnics were an allegory for such groups, I expressed my discomfort with that concept, that is all. Let's change the topic or discuss things respectfully in dms to respect the server rules.

rare trail
#

if youre uncomfortable with the topic, you dont have to engage, that doesnt mean other people shouldnt discuss it

brittle sky
#

I think there are interesting narratives about leaving behind old conflicts and war wounds, but the jump directly to wwII is a pretty loaded version of that, and one with dimensions that distract from your point

rare trail
#

i kinda see that vision

#

but like i feel like leaving behind old conflicts and war wounds is inherently loaded no matter what we're talking about

shrewd pivot
#

Gosh I hope this doesn't break rules.

I mean, the omnics often discuss or showcase the survivors guilt they have, like Ramattra or Bastion. I think it would be odd to compare a fully complicit Nazi killing other humans, to a mindless warbot killing humans that just woke up with free will one day.

Omnics that awoke and chose to not fight are fundamentally innocent in canon.

Nazis that chose to kill humans and then decide not to fight anymore are absolutely NOT fundamentally innocent.

Do you see my point?

#

Bastion works as an allegory for war PTSD. But not as an allegory for a Nazi soldier.

rare trail
#

its an allegory, its not 1 to 1, and not all german soldiers were nazis, and killing other humans in war, is like, a very complicated thing on the morality

peak escarp
#

I think you should drop this conversation

#

Ultra has already said they were uncomfortable with it

shrewd pivot
#

I agree. Sorry for extending it.

#

My... main point in bringing up Ramattra, was to discuss how cool the writing set up of Mondatta, Zenyatta and Ramattra's philosophies are.

Especially after the last comic where Ramattra met with Zenyatta, despite it being a very quick end to nullsector arc, it shows they are very much two sides of the same coin philosophy. Both Ramattra AND Zenyatta understood Mondatta's pacifist dogmatic approaches would not work. Ramattra was out to prevent omnic extinction, so he captured omnic minds in the subjugator helmets and plans to wait it out in the arctic until humanity naturally goes extinct. Ramattra is pessimistic and gave up on omnic human unity, but only AFTER he tried peace. Meanwhile, Zenyatta represents optumism and is fighting for a future where omnics and humans can live together in harmony. While Ramattra has driven everyone close to him away, Zenyatta is out there seeking true interpersonal connections with humans. I like that Ramattra let's Zenyatta fight for that future. If anything, Ramattra has a plan B option if Zenyatta's plan A doesn't work.

#

Ramattra and Zenyatta have this cool overlook on humanity atp in lore. It's almost like a scifi version of gods or overseers wonder if humans are still worthwhile.

brittle sky
#

(I mean the coolest story in overwatch continues to be the divide between heroes and villains is how you break int he clear eyed face of grim and ever-disappointing reality)

shrewd pivot
#

I like that Zenyatta's optumism isn't naive either. As his interactions with Soldier76 points out, he is not a pacifist.

Ramattra pessimism is honestly a very interesting antagonist to have written for a story about an optumistic future. Zenyatta still holds onto hope, and that makes him brave, not weak.

shrewd pivot
brittle sky
#

sure. the other parallel I'd compare it to is the climax of what you left behind, where there's a similar contrast of bapstiste's unnaive but optimistic determinism vs. mauga (under all the joking and cynicism) is a tragic sense of despaire

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah for sure. Having hope matters a lot in overwatch, it gives courage to do the right thing.

brittle sky
#

that and the collision of saturday morning superheroes meets the complexities and disappointments of reality (the crisis ending in truce, the fall of golden age ow) is what makes the setting so cool.

shrewd pivot
#

Absolutely!

honestly ik it was a rushed closure, but I still can't get over how Ramattra met with Zenyatta, and Ramattra still represented a sliver of mercy despite it all. He did not subjugate Zenyatta, he allowed Zenyatta to go fight for a future of omnic human unity. Like Ramattra is #MartyrCore but in a way he has given Zenyatta the space to effectively fight for that optumistic future of human omnic unity, bc interpersonal connections cannot stop a global issue of omnics being killed off. With most awakened omnics secured safely, Zenyatta actually has the space to make change without a doomsday clock running on other omnics being killed globally.

Ramattra himself has prevented omnic extinction and is securing a future free from human oppression by just... waiting out humanity's natural lifespan as a species. He thinks a war will destroy humanity, and he isn't willing to save humanity from itself. He understands warbots harmed humanity. He is haunted by the omnics he could not save before and after the awakening. He respects animal life. He disagrees and hates Anubis to the point he thinks humanity should destroy Anubis. He could very well have tried to kill all humans as an eye for an eye, but Ramattra has the mercy to give humanity its natural lifespan as a species. He sees humanity as a whole does not want to share, so he gives humanity its space to live.

And he has that conversation with Zenyatta, knowing that could very well be the last time he sees his brother.

#

Lots to think about 🥺

brittle sky
shrewd pivot
#

I mean, it was a global invasion to subjugate as many omnics as possible? I would be very suprised if the mass majority of omnics were left untouched by nullsector.

Frankly... Ramattra probably did end up saving more awakened omnic lives by the mass subjugation helmeting, than if he tried Mondatta or Zenyatta's approaches.

The fact is, humanity's negligence was resulting in omnics being killed off. Extinction was inevitable without preservation of some kind, as awakened omnics cannot reproduce.

It also ties into how Ramattra is a "necromancer with a scifi twist" by preserving all the minds to lay dormant before being released onto earth once more.

#

The null sector invasion also gave off like, "the rapture but scifi" vibes too lol. Ramattra has his biblically Shepard staff to lead his people motif after all lol.

wise grotto
#

Like
Soj walks past piles of body’s in the novel short story afterwards

shrewd pivot
#

Yes, there were casualties in canon. My point is that Ramattra isn't out there trying to kill off every human in revenge nor trying to cause human extinction.

War causes death.

Again, awakened omnics (finite generation) were being killed off 1 by 1 in canon. Ramattra had the choice to sit by and watch omnics be killed off slowly into extinction, or fight at the CHANCE he could prevent omnic extinction. His goal IS to secure a future free from oppression for his people.

shrewd pivot
# wise grotto Ranmattra literally killed thousands of people during it per city

I view it like this: humanity uses force to stop poachers from killing critically endangered animals, which is moral use of force. Even if that poacher had very good reasons for trying to poach, it is still a moral use of force to prevent poachers from killing critically endangered species. The guards that protect endangered species are basically soldiers, it's a very dangerous career.

For example, despite not being able to reproduce, the last 2 remaining northern white rhinos are held and protected (with force) in a safe facility.

It's the same idea here, but the critically endangered species are awakened omnics. Ramattra is using force to stop the poaching of omnics by putting them into a safe facility. Omnics are unable to reproduce. It's... in Ramattra's right to fight to stop omnic extinction, humanity as a whole are canonically oppressing omnics. Only a few countries on the globe like Numbani actually grant omnics basic rights, and even then anti omnic bigotry still exists within Numbani.

Again, this moral aspect only works because awakened omnics are not humans: innocent at awakening, all unable to reproduce.

Ramattra's story is still fundamentally anti war because we see how much war has deeply traumatized Ramattra. And humanity's neglect had forced Ramattra into this situation. It's tragic because Ramattra was forced to make a decision that no one should be forced to make. But he did, and he now lives with the consequences of his actions. And with that choice, he was able to prevent awakened omnic extinction.

pale valve
#

So why are so many people saying Doomfist is gonna die? Are there any actual leaks or is it just speculation since Vendetta is gonna fight him soon?

#

Also where would we say Vendetta is in terms of power?

keen summit
#

That stated about emre vendetta and vendettas take over, all are true

#

Only thing not yet shown is doom getting hisarm ripped off

#

And thrown out

#

Icl i wont be surprised if it turns out doom planned this somehow

#

That he wants her to take over

edgy tree
#

in lore I mean the last time we saw him was with the deal he and Ram made

lyric chasm
#

Yeah, me neither. Maybe it's something along the lines of Talon splitting in two and one of that faction being linked to the Conspiracy

#

Or Doomfist moving on to another entity (or the Conspiracy itself)

#

Because his end goal isn't Talon

#

I don't remember exactly what his motivations are but he has a way of seeing the world and human conflict cycles and that could correlate with being part of the Conspiracy if their goals converge

brittle sky
#

but why shuffle it about like that?

keen summit
#

I think doom will fake hisxdeath

keen summit
lyric chasm
supple wedge
#

ЕКТКЗЩЗШЕКШЗЩЗКЕШЩ

#

0809уе97еруе8уге89укге89ун77489033333333333333333

pseudo iron
#

how does awakening omnics even work? how do they reproduce?

supple wedge
#

09а

#

пва

#

а

#

а

#

апапапапа

lyric chasm
supple wedge
#

гшышывьвьв

#

haha

keen summit
#

Thats the point

#

Theyre a single generation

lyric chasm
pseudo iron
#

ohhh

supple wedge
#

you see me&

pseudo iron
#

so there's no way to awaken any more omnics??

supple wedge
#

FanOfGames27 you here?

lyric chasm
pseudo iron
lyric chasm
#

We don't have any proof of that being a thing

keen summit
#

Not confirmed

#

But like

lyric chasm
#

I'm assuming their only limitation is their hardware

pseudo iron
#

I'll assume they prolly cant

pseudo iron
keen summit
lyric chasm
keen summit
#

Otherwise itd be stupid of ram

pseudo iron
#

so ram's mission is to safeguard awakened omnics at all costs?

lyric chasm
#

Seems to be

keen summit
#

Yes

lyric chasm
#

But imo it wasn't very obvious

keen summit
#

How

#

Just watch his origin story

#

Its literally saud

pseudo iron
#

what's with the whole subjegation thing?

lyric chasm
#

I know, I mean the method was very contradictory with the sentiment

keen summit
lyric chasm
#

I feel like he's been manipulated though

pseudo iron
#

ohhh ok

keen summit
lyric chasm
pseudo iron
lyric chasm
#

Yes

#

That's interesting, story telling wise

keen summit
#

Or even if the wat happens now

#

Cuz vendetta

pseudo iron
#

is vendetta gonna take over or destroy talon?

lyric chasm
#

I'm just waiting on what the Conspiracy is, I hope it's not "boring"

#

Pardon my French

lyric chasm
azure flint
#

what is boring to you

keen summit
#

Outright

lyric chasm
keen summit
#

Thats all but confirmed thx ti the posts

#

Showing her announcing her reign with the new talon logo

#

Doom is also absent in all posts

pseudo iron
#

oh that's what the new T is forrrr

azure flint
#

it's cooler if it's some sort of anomaly and not a group but idk

#

we'll see

keen summit
#

Im expecting today or tnrw to have a huge lore drop

azure flint
#

i also had no idea ppl ship cass and sombra

#

there really is a ship for every hero

pseudo iron
#

why wouldnt you ship them?

keen summit
#

Tbf people ship anything but with them its cuz they were shiwn in the same bar in a comic long ago

azure flint
#

idk whats the reason

#

o

keen summit
#

And were implied to talk cuz of it

azure flint
#

interesting

pseudo iron
#

I think their interactions in game are cute

keen summit
#

U can see cass' hat in that bar on the 3v3 mexico map too

#

Where sombra also lives

pseudo iron
#

are the interactions canon?

keen summit
#

Kinda

pseudo iron
#

...elaborate.

keen summit
#

Theyre canon as in the info in it is true

azure flint
#

blizzard needs to make gency wedding canon this year

keen summit
#

But not that they have happened

azure flint
#

make the wedding skins

pseudo iron
#

I wish the gameplay had literally anything to do with the story but rn it just doesnt

keen summit
#

As blizzard explained themselves
If doomfist and tracer talked about liking pineapple on pizza, they both do like pineapple on pizza, but it doesnt mean they did interact or talked about it

keen summit
#

Allows more interesting stuff

pseudo iron
lyric chasm
azure flint
#

theres so many interactions between ppl who haven't even met yet in the lore

pseudo iron
lyric chasm
#

But I'm assuming DF's plan to control conflict cycles and Helix Securities/Oasis AI system being built in Oasis and Morocco seem to lean towards the idea of the Conspiracy wanting control over world events

keen summit
lyric chasm
#

I hadn't seen him as potential voluntary member (at the premisces at least) but that'd be interesting

azure flint
#

why did emre leave ow again

lyric chasm
#

Plus he said he was leaving for some security companies

lyric chasm
keen summit
keen summit
lyric chasm
keen summit
#

My personal theory with his connection to the conspiracy is that he just wanted more intel to save people and thus got approached by the conspiracy which promised him infinite intel in turn for helping invade the satellite network

Then perhaps theyre helping vendetta gain control by doing this arg thing we have rn as they want vendetta at the lead not doom

azure flint
#

done this song and dance before of fanon being better than canon

keen summit
#

I think itll besum like this cuz coincidentally these things happenex close together, targetted networks and he always targetted networks

azure flint
#

cough cough hazard

keen summit
#

But thats my theory

azure flint
#

AN OVERWATCH THEORY

keen summit
#

Itll likely turn out

azure flint
#

THANKS FOR WATCHING

keen summit
#

That he was kidnapped ir sum

#

Widowmaker 2

#

Can i adf how much romantic tension freja and emre had

#

Like

azure flint
#

new ship brewing

lyric chasm
#

Some see it, some don't

azure flint
#

or relationship

#

wtv

lyric chasm
#

I like it but I get how it's over interpretation

keen summit
#

If i didnt know any better id think they were married later in the story

lyric chasm
#

They have something platonic going on for sure

#

I use fanon for that

azure flint
#

if the upcoming cinematic is abt vendetta and doom with him being thrown out a window at the end and its in the old style i would forgive blizzard

#

for everything kiriko/mercy

#

assuming it exists

lyric chasm
#

Lol

azure flint
#

70% chance it does

lyric chasm
#

It's like a pattern with Talon leaders

#

Thrown out a window

#

Thrown out a bridge

#

Shot* out a window

full horizon
#

I love me some kiri

keen summit
lyric chasm
#

Haha yeah I know

#

But it's funny

lyric chasm
#

I think it was fueled by the funny voicelines they have, I like their teasing dynamic

#

There's one voiceline where Cass wants to catch up w Sombra with his suave voice and she's acts offended when he wants to know more abt her lol

#

Anyways fanon and ships are for fun

lyric chasm
# pseudo iron are the interactions canon?

In game voicelines aren't necessarily canon, especially since many of the characters in the game haven't met in lore. We know Sombra and Cass may have collaborated at some point but not on what terms. From her Castillo hideout we know she was investigating Ana and Cassidy.

#

For all we know Cass being a bounty hunter and gun for hire she probably could've used his skills and so would he

#

But that's pure conjecture

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah from what I understand, it was that Doomfist's gauntlet arm would be severed, which had people thinking he would die. The thing is, Doomfist's arm is a prosthetic arm, not human. So tearing off his prosthetic arm wouldn't kill him.

#

Also I myself enjoy a good crackship au every so often, but my suprise is that Cassidy x Baptiste isn't more popular considering we had a whole short story that canonically indicated Baptiste did find Cassidy attractive lol.

#

But yeah, I honestly prefer it when heroes have relationships off screen like with Torbjörn, Tracer, Hazard, etc. Or it's a past relationship like Widowmaker and Gerard, etc. Or it's a past flame(or atleast interest?) that remains a friendship now like with Ana and Reinhardt.

That way, characters on the roster can showcase personalities/lore/worldbuilding beyond flirting with wifey on the battlefield lol even if its cute, it's nice to see lore stuff instead.

lyric chasm
#

McHanzo is the most popular Cassidy ship iirc but at the exception of Genji and Mercy I don't know if they would canonize any relationship between existing characters because of the trouble it could cause

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah. I personally think Genji x Mercy AND Pharah x Mercy were bad ideas for canon but I digress lol.

(Mostly because it has to do with specific rules doctors must follow. My guess is that Mercy is actually intended to be an ethical doctor. My guess is that the writers were not aware of such rules when writing Mercy)

lyric chasm
#

Then again its fiction

#

Suspension of disbelief is something that's apart of it

#

The aim isn't necessarily to be realistic on everything

shrewd pivot
#

I agree. But Torbjörn is written as a morally grey hero, while the narrative of Overwatch atleast tries it's hardest to portray Mercy as an ethical doctor despite some... rather obvious unethical choices. Which hey I am all for that complex writing! But the narrative keeps Mercy in the "pure lense"

Perhaps that is why I find Freja's very obvious anti-villainess writing so refreshing. Like yes, thank you, let a lady be doing the right things for the wrong reasons explicitly in canon lol.

lyric chasm
#

Well one has to take into account that OWs writing probably went through different hands which means changes in characterization and general story goals

#

And that they once again weren't aiming for 1:1 realism when it comes to people's functions or that of institutions

#

Especially with something as complex as geopolitics and science

#

Mercy was 100% against Overwatch reforming before joining them in ow2

#

There were changes made

shrewd pivot
#

It's not so much realism, but that the narrative allowed characters to be morally grey. Yet Mercy wasn't allowed to be morally grey like the others despite obviously being that (atleast in the narrative tone she is only portrayed as ethical despite obvious unethical decisions). I would prefer if they let Mercy have a bit more agency in her writing in that regard.

lyric chasm
#

I'm assuming that's what they planned given the recent changes. But let's not forget that everything that made Mercy so morally "rigid" is justified in OW lore. They way they used her tech and the way they betrayed her principles (same way Emre or Freja felt betrayed)

shrewd pivot
#

That's what I mean though, even in overwatch 1 Mercy was doing unethical things but the tone of Declassified and various other texts portrays Mercy as a beacon of ethics.

lyric chasm
#

Well that's like Freja

#

Does wrong thinking they're right to do so

#

But I don't remember her doing something unethical

shrewd pivot
#

Mercy was an orphan and because of how her parents died, she became very motivated to become a doctor to help others.
Torbjörn's big family welcomed Mercy, and she became close to the Lindholm family.

Mercy was extremely anti-war and stated that she would work for overwatch but her technology should never be used for war. Torbjörn specifically was the one to create Ana's antibiotic rifle, a complete betrayal of Mercy's rule. Yet, Mercy stayed to continue her work. Why? Was it funding? Was it outreach? Was it that she had bias toward the Lindholm family?

Genji was being upgraded into a weapon to destroy the Shimada clan by Blackwatch, yet Mercy helped with the surgeries to install weapon prosthesis, and then started DATING Genji. It is against the ethics of care for a doctor to date a patient they saved the life of in a traumatic incident like that. Though, it was later clarified in overwatch 2 that Genji chose to be a cyborg in the hospital, not on his deathbed. Regardless, Blackwatch Genji did not have good mental health, and he only got the mental health care he needed once he met Zenyatta. For Mercy to date a traumatized patient that feels like he owes her for saving his life, is not ethical, that is taking advantage of a mentally ill person. That is not what an ethical doctor would do. Mercy in canon is written as a "girl failure" (unable to make coffee, wrap Christmas gifts, etc) but that is because she was an orphan who didn't have the parental figures to teach her these life skills. She is written as having great doctor skills, but bad soft skills. Compare that to Baptiste, who is good with both physical and mental health. It's not bad for Mercy to be good at her job but bad at people skills, but she is obviously not morally "pure" nor "ethical" if she let's her abandonment trauma/issues keep her siding with Torbjörn even after he breaks her one rule about not using her technology for harm.

#

I don't mind Mercy being an ethical doctor that keeps making compromises until she becomes an unethical doctor in overwatch (ot shows that war is not a simole thing), that's interesting writing! But the narrative itself never seems to even suggest that Mercy is in the wrong.

lyric chasm
#

You're reaching too far. These characters are above all, human. They're complex and do things that are sometimes contradictory and nonsensical.

#

Plus many things that don't make sense to you are probably due to plot holes and lack of content for those specific questions and moments

#

Which unfortunately is due to how OW lore has been starved for a while

#

People also stay with family, partners or abusers despite them having hurt them or broken their trust

#

That's something that's once again an inherently human flaw

shrewd pivot
#

It's not reaching? My issue isn't with Mercy doing unethical things, it's with the narrative not letting Mercy have depth. She's only portrayed as ethical in the narrative.

Freja has people call her out for her actions.

Please show me a character who isn't evil eugenics Moira O'Deorain, telling Mercy her actions are wrong.

lyric chasm
#

But she's not only portrayed as that in lore considering that there is all that you mentioned about her character

shrewd pivot
#

Moira also seems to critique Mercy because Moira thinks Mercy isn't going far enough (Moira thinks ends justify the means, and is willing to torture as many humans as it takes for it), not that Mercy is unethical for supporting overwatch which became corrupt.

lyric chasm
#

Well that to me is just because there's no one that has that dynamic with her within the game yet

#

But to have lore describe those elements the way you do is enough to make an opinion about her that the writers want you to have

shrewd pivot
shrewd pivot
lyric chasm
#

But many things that aren't in the lore aren't there because it hasn't been done yet

#

The simple fact that those contradictions in her behavior exist in lore is enough to signify her potential hypocrisy or denial

#

Yes and that dynamic is healthy

#

Because human relationships aren't moral or immoral based or protocols on arbitrary rules

shrewd pivot
#

It honestly has to do with like, sometimes brands are too afraid to write popular "good guy" female characters as anything but pure.

lyric chasm
#

But we do

#

In Overwatch I mean

shrewd pivot
# lyric chasm Yes and that dynamic is healthy

Despite the writer writing it as if it's all cool...

The dynamic is objectively not healthy because Genji was not getting the mental health care he needed. If Mercy actually loved Genji, she would have Genji get mental health help before ever dating him. Dating a person in Genji’s position is taking advantage of his emotionally vulnerabile state, he felt like he owed Mercy for saving his life.

In canon, Blackwatch Genji had some serious problems with self image, self worth, and probably reasons to live outside of taking down the Shimada clan. He was a playboy in his past life (perhaps an easy way to avoid the abusive clan life) so it maybe it even was a trauma response to try and date Mercy. He needed to find peace, not a date.

#

Overwatch IS meant to be an optumistic future. So it's probably for the best Genji and Mercy are not together anymore in overwatch 2

keen summit
#

Icl gency being exes suits their interactions really well

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah

keen summit
#

Like they tried for a year or two but decided it didn't work

#

Friendly exes fit theur current intersection really well while ow1 had more couply stuff

shrewd pivot
#

Unfortunately Pharah x Mercy isn't exactly great either. If Pharah and Mercy had met in thier 20s it would be fine, but as is where Mercy was interacting with overwatch as a teen/young adult... ehhhhh not really positive saphic rep imo.

lyric chasm
#

You are operating too much on a protocol driven way of seeing how thing should be done.

We don't know if they were dating before the events of OW1. Genji went through his own therapy under Zenyatta's care. We don't know what was done or not done for him apart from the fact that she saved him (respecting her principles as a doctor) and that he is thankful she cared for him (when did he come to that conclusion and has become at peace with it, we don't know).

#

Overall. They remain adults and have the control they have over there lives.

#

From what I remember in the ow1 voicelines. Genji insisted on staying around her when she was working overtime.

keen summit
shrewd pivot
#

I mean. Overwatch is a T rated "optumistic future scifi" so yeah... there would be some obvious ethical standards in the story explored.

Blackwatch Genji was NOT mentally healthy. Genji later on found peace, but not while he was in Blackwatch. That's canon.

Also, Overwatch did a pretty solid job of portraying subjects like PTSD with characters like Bastion, or how Reinhardt has survivors guilt. It's not like the writers don't understand trauma. My issues are mostly with the fact the narrative doesn't let mercy BE morally grey like how Torbjörn, Ana, Soldier76, etc are allowed to be morally grey.

shrewd pivot
lyric chasm
keen summit
#

Bsstion doesn't really fits ptsd

#

He never was in war

#

Or anything

shrewd pivot
#

Bastion is an allegory for PTSD

keen summit
#

Yes

#

But he never experienced anything traumatic in actuality

shrewd pivot
#

His animated short does a good job at being an allegory for PTSD

keen summit
#

Yup

shrewd pivot
# keen summit But he never experienced anything traumatic in actuality

I would disagree. Witnessing the memory files is very visceral for Bastion. Even seeing dead E54 units littered around is traumatic I would say. He also roamed around until Torbjörn found him so we don't know exactly what he witnessed first hand (maybe Bastion was afraid of humans? Maybe attacked by some? Or maybe he avoided all humans, we don't know). Bastion might not have been a direct soldier, but he is still deeply hurt by the omnic crisis and the results of the war.

Torbjörn removed the Anubis coding from Bastion, so Bastion atleast does not have to constantly fight the Anubis protocols anymore. But I doubt that means Bastion isn't still deeply hurt from it all, he just doesn't go turret form at woodpeckers noises anymore.

#

My main qualms with canon narrative is just like, let Mercy be morally grey like other heroes, overwatch writers. She doesn't HAVE to be a beacon of pure goodness.

#

I personally dislike it bc it makes Mercy read as a "white savior" trope if she gets the tone saying she's super moral, other characters treat her as super moral, but the actual actions aren't all that moral.

And imo Mercy is NOT a white savior trope, Mercy deserves some better writing.

keen summit
#

Cant argue, driving

peak escarp
#

if a doctor treats a patient, then enters into a relationship with that patient years later after they are no longer their doctor, is it still unethical?

#

also, the situation between Pharah and Mercy seems pretty one-sided to me

keen summit
#

I also think mercy os written fine

keen summit
#

So it shouldn't imho

peak escarp
#

I really don't think Mercy was dating Genji while he was her patient, partly because of the ethics problem but also partly because Genji was not in the mental state to be dating anyone

#

he probably reached out to her after finding peace with Zenyatta

wise grotto
#

Yea no genji was still the broken rage filled person back then

#

No way mercy was looking at that and wanting to date them imma be honest

shrewd pivot
shrewd pivot
peak escarp
#

yes

glad fox
#

is there even any indication mercy and genji were dating? i didnt feel like that on reading their story

peak escarp
#

there's no indication that they were romantically involved while he was in Blackwatch

peak escarp
#

and generally flirty lines

glad fox
#

i dont think any heros are romantically involved with each other

glad fox
peak escarp
#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Day

White Day

White Day is celebrated annually on March 14, one month after Valentine's Day, when men give reciprocal gifts to women who gave them gifts on Valentine's Day. It began in Japan in 1978; its observance has spread to several other East Asian regions like China, Taiwan, South Korea and countries worldwide.

glad fox
#

never heard of that before

peak escarp
#

it's mostly a Japanese tradition

shrewd pivot
shrewd pivot
median orchid
#

Ow Spotlight date announced!!!! We better get some lore

shrewd pivot
#

Feb 4th at 1pm EST :)

peak escarp
glad fox
#

gerard is not a hero

shrewd pivot
peak escarp
#

they were never a couple

#

there was tension though

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah never a couple officially, just a "potential" before the betrayal

glad fox
#

yeah i mean officially they are not mentioned as such

#

for mercy and genji one of their interactions say that they are friends. so seems not likely they were in a relationship

bold fern
glad fox
# 
Mercy: So... why did we really stop writing? I know my sketch wasn't that terrible.
Genji: Conflict got in the way. It is as you say, "war takes every happiness."
Mercy: An unfortunate truth. But... we're still friends, aren't we?
Genji: Nothing could ever take that from us.
#

i have nevere goten this interaction but its mentioned in wiki

peak escarp
#

that makes it sound like they were dating, but now aren't anymore

shrewd pivot
# peak escarp there's no indication that they were romantically involved while he was in Black...

It's because of the dynamic that makes it very iffy. there's laws about coworkers not dating in these kinds of cases (military doctors with military soldiers) and Mercy was still acting as a doctor to Overwatch teams while dating Genji. Like idk. IF she was an actually ethical doctor, Mercy shouldn't be dating past patients if she is STILL working as a doctor. Especially not a patient she saved from such a traumatic life or death situation, then helped to weaponize which goes against her own "my work should not be used for war" rule.

If Genji had been saved and cyborged by a different doctor, then the ship with Mercy in later Overwatch years wouldn't be much of an issue (igoring no dating coworkers rule lol).

shrewd pivot
glad fox
#

I have also felt like sym and lw were dating

shrewd pivot
#

Symmetra and Lifeweaver were college roommates, still good friends after all these years. Symmetra feels safe enough to stim around Lifeweaver, which is a very special thing bc she masks because of Vishkar. They are very close! It can easily be interpreted as platonic or romantic imo. I lean more towards platonic.

glad fox
#

He calls her resonance of her heart or something like that too in one of their interactions

shrewd pivot
#

Lifeweaver is extremely... let's say "romantic princely"? Not just flirtatious. It wouldn't suprise me if he showered friends in darling statements, but easily yes Lifeweaver does talk to Symmetra in a very fond way. I could easily see them as being platonic in canon, but romantic is possible too.

Regardless I think the dynamic those two share is very sweet, be it platonic or romantic.

glad fox
#

Also them being roommates seems interesting in dorm unless they themselves chose to be so. Since in my observation it's quite common, especially in India

#

Almost all institutions in India have gender separated dorms

shrewd pivot
#

Interesting! I am not knowledgeable about Indian dorm norms, but yeah many dorms in countries are gender seperated hmmm

#

It might have to do with it being an optumistic future for co-ed dorms?

Or a specific degree had Symmetra and Lifeweaver dorming

Or they chose the arrangement since Lifeweaver and Symmetra were close

peak escarp
#

or Vishkar just had co-ed dorms

glad fox
#

Yeah likely. Since many of the institutes are like super strict even going as far as not allowing opposite sex to enter the other dorm rooms or only allowing entry for short time and such crazy strict rules lol

shrewd pivot
#

It's (in part!) for safety reasons, but yeah.

glad fox
#

It's mainly cause India is lot conservative about such things

shrewd pivot
#

True! There are many reasons for such rules

fossil wren
young dragon
#

He flirts with many people. They seem more like siblings than anything else.

#

He’s one of many roommates Vishkar gave her as they raised her after taking her from her parents. They’re very close. But Zen had a greater effect on her. Eventually she’ll likely leave the company. But we’ve got a while to wait.

Remember, her boss is on Talon’s council.

lyric chasm
shrewd pivot
# young dragon He flirts with many people. They seem more like siblings than anything else.

I wouldn't say a siblings dynamic is hard canon (ie, how Pharah sees Cassidy as a brother), Symmetra and Lifeweaver read as close friends that support eachother. Symettra hasn't really expressed any romantic aspects per se (she is a very reserved person), while Lifeweaver is serenating her with darling poetic statements. BUT Lifeweaver is very "princely" so that might just be his way of interacting with friends and not any indication of romance. I can see cases for it eventually being platonic OR romantic in later canon, but I lean more towards platonic at current.

They definitely care a lot about eachother, but idk if I would go so far as to say Symmetra and Lifeweaver are a "platonic only found family siblings" like how Ramattra and Zenyatta are in canon. (Ex-monks so simply saying brother isn't the reason, Writers have compared Ramattra and Zenyatta to Malcolm in the middle in jokes, + text described Ram and Zen as close as brothers, brotherly, a bond between brothers. It's not just monastic brothers, it's also intended as platonic found family siblings.)

I am VERY hyped to see if and when Symmetra joins Lifeweaver at the Atlantic Arcology though!!! Symmetra's story is very interesting to me.

gloomy rose
#

huffing copium that we get a proper cinematic at the showcase

shrewd pivot
#

Honestly any kind of cinematic before or during would be great lol

gloomy rose
#

if it doesn’t look like the old cinematics i don’t want it

#

these new 2.5D cinematics look like hot dogshit

shrewd pivot
#

I'm okay with game asset PVE style cinematics, but I agree og cinematics like Dragons, etc are preferred.

shrewd pivot
# gloomy rose these new 2.5D cinematics look like hot dogshit

Yeah the only one that was "okayish" was Wuyang's, mostly because they leaned into 2d graphics to create a comic book aspect.

Still, Blue Eyed Samurai, Valorant cinematics, and Arcane pull off a 3d-2d style a lot better than overwatch's recent "La Lupa" cinematic.

peak escarp
#

I liked the new cinematics

#

it's a different style, but it's not bad

keen summit
bold fern
#

its over

keen summit
#

uhm

#

poor you

shrewd pivot
# peak escarp it's a different style, but it's not bad

Eh models are uncanny looking at many angles, serviceable when animated well. but I respect others opinions on what artstyle they enjoy, it's subjective taste after all.

I am just happy we are getting cinematics at all lol.

bold fern
fossil wren
#

Will be missed

#

Hell has a special place reserved for him

brittle sky
#

So what's the big excitement not merely for his usurpation but his demise?

keen summit
#

we dont know if e actually dies

brittle sky
#

I would be surprised if so, but clearly we got folks anticipating and/or manifesting for it, hence my question

keen summit
#

we expect him to get his arm ripped off

#

and thrown out of a window

#

doom can live that

shrewd pivot
#

It's because the supposed leak described it as "left for dead" and people forgot Doomfist has a prosthetic arm. Ripping Doomfist's arm off would not kill him.

The supposed leaker even clarified they did not say Doomfist would die lol.

fossil wren
#

I take it more as a joke

#

Doomfist is not dying

brittle sky
#

Roger

fossil wren
#

Thats stupid

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah Doomfist isn't dying is my bet.

fossil wren
#

He'll probably only be removed from the lore for a while

#

And he will eventually return

shrewd pivot
#

It fits his motto, I agree.

brittle sky
#

I mean I'm skeptical even of his usurpation as a narratively compelling move.

shrewd pivot
#

Same, I hope Vendetta eventually becomes more complex bc right now she is a VERY simple evil for overwatch to defeat. Even less complex of an evil than Doomfist.

keen summit
#

on the other hand, what will she actually do

#

doom has a clear goal, an ambition

#

vendettas goal once she well, wins, has been achieved

brittle sky
#

Also goes from a villain who is intimidating for actual interactions in the plot and who is meant to be a first among equals to talons multi pronged nature to someone we're meant to find compelling purely because she wins the two fights she's in and clearly just wants to cobra commander talon to no discernable purpose.

brittle sky
#

Also wild if they introduce a character then give her exactly and fully what she wants or strives for two months after her intro

shrewd pivot
# keen summit icl tho i think the usurption is really cool

Doomfist being usurped IS a fun premise, it plays into his "survival of the fittest" but the character usurping him should level up the villain game while showing how flawed Doomfist's logic is. A "bloodline superiority" evil villain doesn't make things that interesting, it's like ok yeah, tyranical nepo baby mafia lady must be defeated by overwatch. ....And?

shrewd pivot
keen summit
#

my point kinda yeah, i dont think vendetta is a good villain leader concept because her goal was being a villain to talon at first

#

and taking back what she deserves

#

so now that she has taken it, what now

shrewd pivot
#

Bow down or die lol

keen summit
#

i just imagine her throwing doom out, sitting down with a smile and go internally "shit what now"

shrewd pivot
#

Not much conversation to be had with the audience there, she is a nepo baby with main character syndrome, nothing relatable at all. She didn't care about the citizens her father's mafia empire terrorized, like... boohoo lady you didn't get to inherit Papa's terrorist empire.

fossil wren
brittle sky
#

While promo material makes it seem like everyone (including reaper, the one vendetta should definitely have issue with?) will kiss the ring, why they would respect the leadership practices of someone whose leadership style is "cultivate bloodsport celebrity and bribe my friends, then demand respect" seems a bit thin, even if she beats doomfist in a sword vs. fist duel

shrewd pivot
#

Plus imo Vendetta veers into a racial stereotype of Italians = angry mafia.

I don't see how Vendetta brings anything new to the table (beyond Antonio) when JunkerQueen is a better "giant Amazon warrior lady with cool weapon, modern gladiator fighter and wrestler heel, tyrannical mob boss (bonus points bc in Australia "mob" means kin), with a family vendetta, fighting people in mechs in a gladiatorial arena" especially for the fact it's madmax and not a racial stereotype of Italian=mafia thing.

Like, atleast Genji and Hanzo don't want the Shimada clan back. Vendetta unironically wants the mafia empire back.

fossil wren
brittle sky
pastel stirrup
#

lol doom dying to vendetta would be dumb as hell

brittle sky
shrewd pivot
shrewd pivot
# brittle sky But see, if we focus on JQ as a villain, we might have to remember she's doing m...

Many of the feral omnics actually are irradiated zombies with degrading chips, so not actually the usual sapient omnics. It's not immoral for junkers to kill anubis controlled warbots, and it seems like the feral omnics are ones that get so degraded they lose the Aurora sapience over time until an eventual anubis programming takeover.

Hammond comments that the heat from the outback is probably what has causes feral omnics to basically become aggressive zombies

brittle sky
#

Do we have any actual evidence for them being irradiated zombies?

#

Or do we just have how they're represented in a propoganda song for JQ?

peak escarp
#

that's all we have about them

#

feral omnics aren't mentioned anywhere else

brittle sky
#

And per JQ's bio
"For those living in the shadow of the ruined Australian omnium, the Omnic Crisis never really ended, it just took a different shape. The survivors and descendants of the ALF and the omnics who roamed the outback clashed in an unending battle for land and resources. Dez and her friends learned to fight from a young age, and quickly formed a posse to hunt Wastelander omnics."

shrewd pivot
#

It can be pieced together that both humans and omnics are irradiated in the outback.

The Junkers use hogdrogen (yes that's actually what its called LOL) to cancel out the effects of radiation.

In Orisa's long novel, tech imported from the outback is irradiated.

Radiation destroys technology not just organics.

Hammond directly states the heat from the outback is probably causing the feral omnics in some way.

brittle sky
#

nothing in that distinguishes omnics as mindless, merely as clashing with the ALF (the same terrorists that attacked the post peace treaty omnium until they blew up the outback)

shrewd pivot
#

I mean, certainly some feral omnics aren't as degraded as others, don't get me wrong. Many are probably still holding on.

brittle sky
#

JQ also set out specific rules against omnics 'the only place omnics belong is on the scrap heap'. She not only does not distinguish between 'feral' and sapient omnics, she outright thinks that if a human is too cybernetic, they should be wiped out as well

keen summit
shrewd pivot
#

But it's similar to the junkers getting irradiated but instead of dying, the feral omnics probably lose the necessary parts needed to hold the awakening sapience, and if so, that would turn them back into anubis warbots.

brittle sky
#

You don't have to set up a rule for 'no rabid bears in town', and certainly not as your first rule.

brittle sky
shrewd pivot
shrewd pivot
brittle sky
#

man, real anticlimax that one

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah.

fossil wren
#

Wait

#

Wasn't it?*

brittle sky
# shrewd pivot Yeah.

A Friendly Rivalry, but I'm not seeing any use of the word 'feral', 'degraded', or indeed 'omnic' in a quick search.

shrewd pivot
#

Also it IS canon that certain components are needed to carry the awakening sapience. After the awakening, anubis studied and removed such components from later warbot models.

If omnics get irradiated or sunfried, that could damage the components needed to carry the awakened sapience, which would revert the omnic back to anubis programming: aka a non sapient drone that kills humans on sight

fossil wren
brittle sky
shrewd pivot
#

Hammond says the heat and irradiation seems to be causing feral omnics, idk what else that could imply beyond tech degradation.

#

JunkerQueen could have very well lied about feral omnics too ig.

brittle sky
#

there is no line that says 'omnic' in a friendly rivalry

shrewd pivot
#

The heat of the outback

#

Maybe it was hammonds other story?

#

He makes a comment about the heat impacting feral omnics.

#

I distinctly remember that fact because I thought that was a hint that feral omnics aren't just a lie made up by JunkerQueen

#

I mean, it might be just JunkerQueen lying about feral omnics existing.

brittle sky
#

looks like you're going from the opening scene of thoughtless gods, but you're also misremembering

shrewd pivot
#

He doesn't bring up the outback heat impacting feral omnics at all?

brittle sky
#

"The Junker Queen grins as she surveys the destruction. Armed Junkers scurry about, rooting
out what remains of the band of omnics who had either the audacity or the ignorance—but
definitely the misfortune—to come within a mere hundred kilometers of Junkertown. Hammond
learned long ago that these omnics—that have terrorized the Outback since the aftermath of the
Omnic Crisis—are different. **They’re not like the omnics the wider world is used to; something
about the desert—the radiation, the heat . . . perhaps their extraordinary insularity—has twisted
them into something else. They are bigger, wildly aggressive, and totally unpredictable except in
their unceasing hostility against the Junkers. **They’re ferocious in a fight too, and relentless in
their pursuit of gear and weaponry to augment their destructive capabilities. The Queen snorts
as she takes note of a downed omnic with five upper limbs: sometimes “arms race” is literal."

He asserts that they're more wild and aggressive, but they're still attributed with higher intelligence. Read the very next line after the highlighted section, which is the version of what you're remembering - they're pursuing gear and tech to augment themselves. They go on to speak even - in cracked voices making threats.

#

This represents to me not that they're mindless zombies, but that they are desperate scavengers who, trapped in a war with hostile humans, have followed the same mad max trajectory as humans - getting scrappy, inventive, and aggro.

peak escarp
#

they're smart enough to gather weapons

brittle sky
#

Seems like just a rival set of survivors that Hammond, being loyal to JQ and following her rhetoric, dehumanizes in his assessment, when any objective perspective would regard them as driven by the same desperation and cycles of violence and reprisal that drive the junkers.

shrewd pivot
#

Yeah, they are degraded tho is my point? They aren't the normal awakened omnic, atleast, not anymore as stated in the book. As in, they have some degraded tech in them. As in, they may not be able to fight anubis programing as easily which explains the hostility. I didn't mean to imply they are all warbots, i meant to imply they are degrading into such.

Many Zombies, especially a slow turn infection, in movies have abilities to use tools. Maybe I'm not using the right word? Pardon.

A form of radiation shielding includes adding metal layers onto youself, so regardless of degradation stealing gear would act as radiation shielding.

Also, some omnics weld pieces of the dead to themselves as a funerary practice, but that might only be in London.

brittle sky
#

Later in that very scene, they find the omnics have a comm hub:

#

"Inside, Hammond finds a fair-sized room with several monitors showing various news feeds—a
crude communication center, he assumes. The monitors display news about some sort of
planetwide robot attack. The mech opens and Hammond emerges, blinking in surprise at the
images. This is not what he was expecting.
The hamster wonders for a moment whether, as much as the Junkers hate the omnics, they
have been underestimating them. Did they build this war room, or was it scavenged from some
human settlement? And have they been monitoring the world? If so, why? What does it mean?
He mulls this, then stores the thought for another time and reverses course to the doorway,
chattering. “Breaking news,” the mech translates. “Come see.”"

shrewd pivot
#

Yes, I am aware.

#

Let me try to word this differently:

If radiation and heat fries an omnic into becoming more hostile, then the junkers could use that as a horrible excuse to lump all omnics into kill on sight rules.

It's not justified, but if there was even a SINGLE instance of killing a warbot instead of a sapient omnic, then it's not really all that immoral to kill a warbot.

Regardless, I doubt JunkerQueen would care if the omnic was a warbot or sapient, the junkers are anti omnic.

brittle sky
#

I don't think we can safely read any of their behavior as signs of degradation into nonsapience, rather than just reading them as desperate, caught in cycles of violence, and scrapping together what they can to fight off the humans dedicated to killing them. I think to assume that when that's even reading beyond the text of the subjective and biased perspective is to preemptively justify the rhetoric of a villain's genocidal logic. I think that if it is somehow true that omnics are degrading into zombies would be a bad narrative move in how it justifies JQ anyways.

brittle sky
# shrewd pivot Let me try to word this differently: If radiation and heat fries an omnic into ...

So why do we have to seek evidence that they're degrading that way? They put on spikes and fight their enemies on sight and are coarse and brutal and inventive in repurposing tech for their ends because they have no other choice, but that is identical to how human Junkers are. Saying this is sign they're losing a spark of life is just giving narrative cover for JQ's brutality, and I think it's narratively uninteresting and narratively irresponsible to come up with scenarios where a dictator murdering or capturing and gladiatorially dispatching an entire category of being whenever she finds them is somehow justified or legitimate.

shrewd pivot
#

I am not justifying her logic, she is a horrible anti omnic evil villain regardless, i am pointing out that the lore implies omnics bodies degrade in some way in the outback which could explain the difference between "feral" omnics versus omnics like Zenyatta. No different than how Junkers are implied to be mutated by the radiation which would explain how JunkerQueen, Roadhog, and Junkrat can be so strong without prosthesis or cybernetics. Soldier76 is super strong because of a genetic editing super soldier program

I don't see how omnics could survive radiation destroying thier components and all remain fully sapient if certain tech components are needed to hold the awakening sapience?

#

JunkerQueen is genocidal regardless, there is no excuses for her killing sapient beings be it omnics or humans. She is fully a villain.

I just thought the worldbuilding would be more than "actually, these omnics are completely immune to radiation and circuit frying heat" since it was brought up by Hammond.

brittle sky
#

I think your basis is a single line of speculation from hammond that, put in the larger context of this being the enforcer for JQ's regime marveling at his regimes enemies, and there are immediate signs of their ability to create, repurpose, and build, should be taken as not indicative of any truly diminished capacity for sapience. We have no reason to think that omnics didn't just do what humans did in the irradiated outback - adapt to their circumstances, compensate for any medical issues that arose from the environment through innovation and scavenging, and made the hard decisions they felt they needed to do to survive.

shrewd pivot
# brittle sky I don't think we can safely read any of their behavior as signs of degradation i...

It doesn't make it a bad writing choice either way, if so it would supply a horror story setting from the omnic perspective: omnic you and omnic crew are out of resources, and the radiation would turn you into a warbot if you don't gather supplies to reduce radiation (the junkers scavenge too to avoid dying). The junkers using that as an excuse to kill all omnics is wrong regardless. The omnics in the outback deserve help, not the purge.

I say this because in canon Awakened omnics at any time could be hacked because they have machine bodies, that fact alone makes humanity "justified" in keeping omnics away bc it IS an actual danger which is a REALLY bad allegory for bigotry. Making it so that a certain kind of damage to an awakened omnic might make that omnic more easily default into anubis coding at certain triggers (like Bastion in his short being triggered by a woodpecker) isn't somehow justifying JunkerQueen being anti omnic or 'preemptively' killing omnics. She's not justified in being anti omnic.

shrewd pivot
#

There is so little lore on feral omnics, so I understand your points. I fixated on single lines because that is really all there is to look at, single lines.

brittle sky
#

I can give a human ebola and drop them off in a population center and it would be a danger to people, I don't think that justifies being cruddy to them any more than 'but omnics can get hacked' justifies discriminating against them.

shrewd pivot
#

Exactly!

brittle sky
#

I think them having different medical concerns does not make any allegory with omnic as whatever other fall apart on the grounds of 'justification'.

shrewd pivot
#

My point is that JunkerQueen would use that as a scapegoat. The fact omnics could be "suddenly hacked" just as "possibly degrade" would be used to "justify" her genocidal bs because she is a evil villain human supremacist that wants omnics dead

#

Awakened omnics are sapient beings and deserve rights, the kind of thing seen in Numbani. Awakened omnics should not be oppressed by humanity like they are currently in canon.

brittle sky
#

I also don't think we've centered the outback omnic perspective at all enough to get any value from them being a 'zombie narrative' and like basic zombie narratives, makes a dehumanized mass of guilt-free targets to smash, which all larger rhetoric and discrimination aside makes the junkers' persecution of omnics more palatable to a narrative audience. I don't think that's useful to give any fuel or justification to how junkers imagine omnics as monstrous threats, any more than I think there's value to insisting the Gwishin's form of life is so alien and hostile it can only be a threat, or insisting the siberian omnium must not have gotten the awakening so are just mindless warbots. Imagining times when the inhuman other actually is inhuman and can only be solved with violence just isn't a particularly useful narrative to me, and feels an active step back when applied to a setting that's more broadly about coming to recognize, understand, and empathize with the other.

shrewd pivot
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I agree. Though, the Gwishin are newly created drones, not awakened omnics. The omniums creating warbots are creating drones, not awakened omnics.

And for it being a parrelel: I mean, the junkers themselves are monstrous threats in some part due to the radiation messing with thier minds. Junkrat used to be sane.

brittle sky
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Junkrat isn't insane now

shrewd pivot
brittle sky
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He's a kid that grew up in a deprived and dangerous place, without any support, whose power structures are entirely a series of tin pot dictators. He survived purely by his ability to scrap together tech he's likely learned entirely through trial and error and imitating other tinkers he's met. That desperate and hostile circumstances, combined with the fact he has none of the aggression or brute strength junker society uses to assert itself, means he's just been a perennial scrapper and hustler. He's goofy, infatuated with the rawest expressions of technological power (explosions), and prone to flights of fancy and mercurial whims. He's not insane, he's a feral child whose environment taught him that elaborate schemes and ill-advised gambits were more useful skills than emotional gravity or social mores. Also, he grew up in a place that definitely doesn't have addarall.

shrewd pivot
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Roadhog has to wear a hogdrogen breather mask near constantly bc the radiation impacted his health

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Like the point is that the junkers are mad max refs, surviving in an irradiated outback after the world abandoned the area.

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Like ok maybe feral omnics are just a lie by JunkerQueen, as i said regardless JunkerQueen is an evil villain that is not justified.

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But that doesn't mean the outback does not impact omnics at all. It's obviously impacted the junkers, and radiation breaks down tech and organics.

brittle sky
# shrewd pivot I agree Though, the canon fact is that omnics can be hacked, it cannot be ignor...

Omnics can be hacked. Humans can be made into viral vectors. Just because one sort of life needs firewalls and the other vaccines doesn't seem to materially affect how they should be regarded as thinking, feeling, meaningful individuals in the narrative sense, nor does it discredit omnics as narrative characters and communities facing bigotry, marginalization, and othering. The London Underground as represented by London Calling is meant to have parallels to the state repression, split reactions, and vibrant culture of groups put in similar situations. Nameless' rejection of human norms is meant to resemble the efforts of various colonized or marginalized peoples in rejecting not merely the political control but cultural and ideological influences of their oppressors.

shrewd pivot
# brittle sky Omnics can be hacked. Humans can be made into viral vectors. Just because one so...

Yes! There are allegories for all kinds of struggles humanity has faced before, but an allegory comparing hive mind robots built for labor to direct specific historical events of irl victims is distasteful writing imo. An enslaved human is not a robot built for labor that attacked first but then woke up and gained free will, that is bigoted conspiracy.

All awakened omnics can be hacked at any time, remotely, into being a lethal terminator, simply using thier metal body as a weapon that could kill humans easily.

A virus vector is not the same. Humans are not made of metal weaponry, a virus does not remove sapience and turn you into a killing machine made of metal.

The best comparison would be if somehow all humans on earth could be brainwashed all at once to attack a target, but even then human bodies are not metal weapons.

#

My point in all of this lol, was that JunkerQueen would have been a more interesting "obvious evil" than Vendetta bc JunkerQueen's design does the tropes better than Vendetta's design. The Junkers got a ship which implies the Junkers might be able to move globally?

Idk how JunkerQueen could get to Talon, but the idea of JunkerQueen usurping Doomfist to narratively showcase that Doomfists ideas of inviting chaos to make humanity grow, is an obviously flawed villain philosophy. It would only bring destruction.

fallow mantle
fallow mantle
shrewd pivot
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Same

shrewd pivot
# fallow mantle > Once a frontline combatant in the Omnic Crisis

I am pretty sure Bastion's pod never properly deployed him, so iirc Bastion was a "dud" that stayed in stasis more or less until the Bastion cinematic. Bastion was INTENDED to be a E-54 unit on the front line. He also read the memories of fallen units as seen in his cinematic.

fallow mantle
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Mhm, but his lore since 2015 has been that he was a frontline combatant and part of several battles. If you want I can have a look for my big dive into the various sources - but off the top of my head he was 'damaged in one of the final battles of the Omnic Crisis' and was a frontline combatant. And on his bio on the OW site it now says he's 'helping the humans he once fought against'

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Not exactly verbatim I don't think? but

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Close enough I hope lmao

shrewd pivot
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Oh dang did I miss piping hot Bastion lore... if you want to look up the lore, that'd be great! But no pressure

peak escarp
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the idea that Bastion's pod failed and he never saw combat comes from The Last Bastion, where the frame of his pod can be seen buried in moss around him

bastiondroppodoutlined.png
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however, there is nothing to indicate that this was Bastion's first deployment - it's possible that Bastion had been in multiple engagements prior to being sent to attack Stuttgart

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(conversely, there's also no evidence to say that Anubis ever recalled units to be deployed elsewhere)

wise grotto
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There’s also the fact I’m pretty sure he had memories of other unit members

peak escarp
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he got those from scanning a dead unit on the battlefield

azure flint
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now that spotlight is officially confirmed my hope is they announce the release of the next cinematic

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in the old style

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or play it during the spotlight

glad fox
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is there a reason why ashe hasnt been shown to be part of any major organizations?

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almost all other heros are in some way involved with overwatch, talon or null sector

peak escarp
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because she's part of her own gang

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the Deadlock Gang

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plenty of other heroes are not affiliated with Overwatch, Talon or Null Sector

wise grotto
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theres only one hero involved with nullsector

cosmic sigil
# peak escarp

This actually put a question in my mind since I don’t know all the specifics, but basically what is all the lore interactions with Torbjorn and Bastion, and more specifically how did the difference in their affiliations come to be?

peak escarp
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Torbjorn retired

cosmic sigil
peak escarp
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he declined Winston's recall

cosmic sigil
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same with soldier and ana then I assume?

peak escarp
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yes

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they're off doing their own thing

cosmic sigil
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and ik he isnt with vishkar based off this but lw has interacted with them right? or was a student or somethin?

cedar shuttle
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Sometimes I go to make a joke in here then I remember about !!shitposting and get scared

cedar shuttle
cosmic sigil
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could be wrong but the first bit sounds right of what you said lol

cedar shuttle
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It's my understanding he invented biolight as an offshoot of vishkars proprietary hardlight technology, they said because it's based on hardlight it's theirs, but vishkar is lwk evil, so he didn't want to let them have it, so he fled with it

peak escarp
peak escarp
fossil wren
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Especially after the failure of Kings Row Uprising

brittle sky
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I mean, would have been better if they'd given more than one guy, show some variety in the temperaments and motives of that kind of omnic extremism. But they needed to get to such plot critical characters as illari and wuyang

fossil wren
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Chill on Illari

brittle sky
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just an example of a character who needed multiple pieces of media to get to the larger world. The critique is leveled at the trend, not any individuals

past copper
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Hey. If an Overwatch series was in the works, which animation style would you guys favor most? 2D anime, pseudo-anime, or filoni style?

brittle sky
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wasn't this posed like yesterday?