lore-discussion

[hushed jetty]

i feel like ram would be more chaotic good no

[desert yacht]

i moved junk more to the left than i originally had him

[tranquil orbit]

The human genocider 😭

[rare trail]

idk about good

[desert yacht]

he is launching a worldwide invasion to try to kill billions ??

[tranquil orbit]

We talking abt the same person here?

[rare trail]

hes killed hundreds of innocent people

[hushed jetty]

Good as in his intentions are "good" for omnics at least

[tranquil orbit]

He also incapacitates omnics tho

[true rock]

Are ana and widow swapping stories?

[desert yacht]

good for omnics diabolically evil for everybody else

[hushed jetty]

yeah, but he at least Thinks he's doing good

i wouldnt call that evil aligned

[tranquil orbit]

Doomfist thinks he's doing good

[hushed jetty]

ok fair

[tranquil orbit]

Almost every convincing villain does tbf

[desert yacht]

numerous terribly evil people think they're doing good

[hushed jetty]

but he's certainly not lawful

[desert yacht]

are you saying doomfist is a good aligned character

[hushed jetty]

i'd call him maybe neutral evil then

[tranquil orbit]

Ram is defo lawful

I can agree w that

[hushed jetty]

how so

[tranquil orbit]

He has strict principles

[desert yacht]

bc he's fighting for omnics

he's not genociding humanity for the sake of genociding humanity

he's doing it to liberate his people

[hushed jetty]

ok fine i can see this

[hushed jetty]

that's not what lawful means

[tranquil orbit]

Like ram is v much a social justice kinda villain and only wants to fight on a certain set of terms

Someone like junkrat on the other hand doesnt care what he has to do

[desert yacht]

doomfist is in a similar boat where trying to plunge the world into a massive war is inherently evil

but he believes doing it will strengthen humanity once more

[tranquil orbit]

Id say doomfist is pretty lawful evil asw

[desert yacht]

since humanity's greatest achievements technologically come from wartime

[tranquil orbit]

And dey say chivalry ...

[desert yacht]

shit like radar aircraft

[tranquil orbit]

The fact that doom acc accepted a draw w mauga when fighting him tells u that hes lawful

[desert yacht]

someone doing very evil things for a purpose/code that they believe in is the definition of lawful evil

i got a bit lazy with characters like echo ana weaver genji

[tranquil orbit]

Weaver id put deep on chaotic

He's a vigilante isnt he?

[hushed jetty]

no?

[tranquil orbit]

I swear he's wanted

[rare trail]

hes wanted

[tranquil orbit]

But then again it's vishkar

[hushed jetty]

not for being a vigilante

[rare trail]

idk about vigilante though

[desert yacht]

weaver is on the run from vishkar

[hushed jetty]

lw as chaotic/neutral good makes sense to me

[desert yacht]

he isnt a vigilante, he's protecting his creation from vishkar

bc they'll try to abuse it

im not familiar enough with weaver's backstory and motives

[tranquil orbit]

He definitely has a code of not wanting to sell the biolight tech

[hushed jetty]

i wouldnt call that a code

[tranquil orbit]

Under any means

I mean it's something

Junkrat wouldve sold it the second he got it 😭

So yh maybe like semi chaotic neutral

[desert yacht]

no he's definitely good aligned

[tranquil orbit]

I was thinking abt the verical axis moreso

[desert yacht]

he's not protecting biolight bc it's his he's protecting it for the good

[tranquil orbit]

I agree he's defo good

[desert yacht]

oh

thinking about his dynamic with his parents

he def wanted to break free from the order n structure they wanted for him

and do his own shit

so im definitely bumping him into chaotic decently

[tranquil orbit]

Yep thats him in general

Not one for rules for the most part

Outside of some moral restrictions

[desert yacht]

i think if a character is in new overwatch you have to dock a ton of lawful points from them

like i would've had pharah at max lawful

but like joining new overwatch is inherently extremely chaotic

even if she is a lawful presence within the organization

it's actively going against the law

[tranquil orbit]

Pharahs a weird one because despite the fact that shes been around forever they still havent rly fleshed out her character enough

[desert yacht]

no i think her alignment is definitely fleshed out

[tranquil orbit]

Beyond being ana's daughter

[desert yacht]

esp with her interaction with kiri

[tranquil orbit]

Idt thats canon

She hasnt met kiri in universe

[desert yacht]

obviously

but this is how she's react

in this situation

even if it didnt happen in canon

it demonstrates her character

[tranquil orbit]

Maybe but then why join colebif she acc follows this

Obvs theres the fact shes anas daughter

[desert yacht]

it shows character growth

[tranquil orbit]

But thats what i was getting at before

[desert yacht]

her view is changing

yeah i'll update that

[tranquil orbit]

Kinda? It's not like either is an inherently wrong view

Plus it didn't take much if it was just cole showing up imo

[desert yacht]

it shows that she's realizing that in order to protect the world and do what she needs to do she can't continue staying within the confine of the laws which she originally believed she had to do

[tranquil orbit]

But it was mostly ana wasnt it

[desert yacht]

i mean cole and ana are two of the most influential figures in her life

she's obviously very very morally conflicted about her choice

[tranquil orbit]

Yh but once again i dont think it rly took much nor was fleshed out tbh

[desert yacht]

and shown from her documents after completing liberation she wants to act as a force of lawfulness in the new overwatch organization

[tranquil orbit]

Shes a v neglected character in general imo

[desert yacht]

creating rules and structure within the organization

[tranquil orbit]

This is true

[desert yacht]

i think this is literally the process of her character being fleshed out

she's immensely struggling with her relationship with her mother

and is experiencing a ton of inner turmoil

[tranquil orbit]

Thats what im saying i feel like outside of ana and the fact she likes order and functionality

[desert yacht]

bc she's being pulled at from numerous different sides

[tranquil orbit]

They havent rly done all too much

The same could be said abt lots of the ow characters tbf

[desert yacht]

they were def going to but then the handling of pve happened

[tranquil orbit]

But i think pharah it's esp bad because shes v reliant on other characters to make her interesting

[desert yacht]

i dont think so

[tranquil orbit]

Like pharah w ana ... v cool

Ana on her own is way more interesting

[desert yacht]

i think her entire dynamic as the only person in new overwatch (unless you count sojourn) who is actively very conflicted with the morality of their decision

brings a lot to the table

[tranquil orbit]

One thing i think could be interesting if how some of these members react to baptistes background

We know cole and tracer know abt his talon membership

[desert yacht]

she's entirely believed in the old overwatch method of enforcing security and good through law and good and this is being challenged by new overwatch

[tranquil orbit]

But i think if theres someone who wouldnt trust him itd be pharah

[desert yacht]

i dont think tracer canonically knows unless cole/bap shared the info

[tranquil orbit]

I think sojourn does it a lot more effectively

[desert yacht]

the tracer interaction is if tracer knew

[tranquil orbit]

Cole probably wouldve kept it to himself I think

[desert yacht]

sojourn actively distances herself from new overwatch her view isnt being challenged

she's making an alliance with 'new overwatch' but wants them to disband immediately iirc

[tranquil orbit]

Sojo u mean?

[desert yacht]

while pharah is actively engaging herself in the new organization

yes

pharah is committing to new overwatch while sojourn is not

i think that level of commitment makes a big diff

[tranquil orbit]

For me it's a lukewarm approach that doesnt rly make for anything interesting beyond some pve jokes abt messing up the facilities

If pharah had sojourns approach

Id be way more interested

[desert yacht]

bc they never had a chance to develop it

[tranquil orbit]

Just because theres more of an actual conflict that could play out

[desert yacht]

then it'd just be a carbon copy of sojourn's dynamic

you dont need both characters to have that dynamic sojourn already covers it

[tranquil orbit]

Maybe but it doesnt excuse pharah being lukewarm tho

No problem rly w 2 ppl having similarish beliefs

[desert yacht]

having someone younger actually within the organization be conflicted about it allows for a very different perspective

[desert yacht]

there is nothing showing that sojourn's character is changing

she's teaming up with new overwatch as a means to an end and then she wants them to disband

pharah is actively having her beliefs challenged by joining and is having her character developed

[tranquil orbit]

Winston does seem to want to convince her tho

Tbh if we're hedging predictions i think sojourn ends up staying

Otherwise she wouldve been written more at a distance like torb

[desert yacht]

idk maybe winston wouldve come around to convincing her

but sojourn's belief is more rooted in overwatch as an organization is flawed

and pharah's beliefs are in her own personal view on what justice is

so it's still diff

[desert yacht]

she's def going to stay with overwatch until the end of the war

where she differs is that she wants overwatch to disband immediately after the war

while pharah is likely struggling much more with that concept

bc her innate beliefs of justice are being challenged

while i dont think you can say the same about sojourn

[tranquil orbit]

Im saying that she stays because she knows that theres always something just around the corner

Like after ram then what ... theres still doomfist

Sigma

Who knows what vishkar is cooking

I dont see sojourn leaving as she claims she will

[desert yacht]

obviously

[tranquil orbit]

But it is more up in the air as weve discussed which acc makes her interesting to talk abt

For pharah ... not so much

[desert yacht]

i think pharah actually joining new overwatch from the start and actively struggling with her belief is a different angle from what sojourn is going through

and it's a healthy difference

[tranquil orbit]

The way they improve her is by rly making sure ana is left out of her story for a while

Like no references

No dialogue lines

[tranquil orbit]

Just let her breathe a bit on her own and we get to see more of this

[desert yacht]

if you move pharah more to a distanced perspective like sojourn she's just sojourn 2

[tranquil orbit]

Not necessarily theres nuance to be had

[desert yacht]

i agree her departure from ana in new blood suggests this angle

[tranquil orbit]

She doesnt need to be as bland as she is now otherwise shes a sojourn clone

[desert yacht]

along with her interaction with ana

ana says what she wanted for pharah shouldve never mattered in the first place

[tranquil orbit]

U can find a middle ground by creating more conflict and character moments that exercise said differences

[desert yacht]

i'd like to think that suggests that she's going to be moved away from ana

[desert yacht]

idk i just looked back at the pride month special as you are

it's literally a one on one conversation between pharah and bap

where she alleviates his tension about his path of redemption

and establishes a friendship withh im

[tranquil orbit]

i need to reread that tbh to make an opinion

i dont remember the exact dialogue

[desert yacht]

yeah he's still struggling with it but

[tranquil orbit]

but my intial reaction is that being part of talon is way different compared to anything else

[desert yacht]

idk there's a lot to unpack here

[tranquil orbit]

i yhink the key thing is that SHE still doesnt know

and thats his own reading of the situation

if i was to imagine how itd play out i think shed feel rly torn abt her trust being broken

[desert yacht]

yeah he gets the vibe that she wouldnt care from the air of his interaction esp since she's so close to cole who also started out as an outlaw

[tranquil orbit]

once again tho it's different when talking abt talon

[desert yacht]

it's diff but i think she'd give him a chance

[tranquil orbit]

i hate to bring it back to ana but they literally shot her eye out 😭

it just wouldnt be convincing if she didnt care at all (for me at least)

[desert yacht]

i think she'd care but still give him a chance

[tranquil orbit]

i also imagine a lot of pharahs opinions on talon were formed when she was quite young ... grieving for her mother after she disappeared likely makes her quite polarised

[tranquil orbit]

i think bap would like to think shed give him a chance

would she? im not so sure

itd definitely require something extreme

acc nah i take that back she probably would but yh itd just require bap to do something serious to regain her trust

i think cole is also a bit easier for pharah to be familiar w ... she was a kid when he joined and also deadlock gang mainly did heists iirc

[desert yacht]

bap was handpicked by 2 of the biggest influences in her life

i think she would trust cole and ana's judgment

[tranquil orbit]

it depends if they wanna acc make her have her own opinions on things in this situation

personally i feel like it's more realistic for her to be distrusting

[desert yacht]

i think she has no reason to distrust 2 of the most well meaning people she knows

[tranquil orbit]

thats not how it works irl tho for most ppl i feel

childhood traumas tend to rub further than opinions of ppl who youre quite distant w in adult life

not to mention i feel like personal opinion comes first in this situation

like if she was constantly around cole and ana rn then maybe id agree more i think

[worthy rose]

So.

Considering on how the new pve writing team got laid off from the layoffs

I wouldn't say this in a celebrating way because nobody should get fired regardless of their how bad their work is to the community

I'd suspect we're gonna have less twitter pandering with Pharah?

and she can be her own genuine character for once in the lore instead of being placed to just chase the annoying support hero's tail around, considering the writing team wanted that to happen especially one guy who kinda...got into the thing a bit too much if we're gonna say it in friendly terms, Gavin his name was

I don't consider myself a shipper or anything like that

But this kinda ruined what an interesting character she could be going forward unless they make a new lore comic with her and the team and stuff.

[peak escarp]

I didn't see much Twitter pandering with Pharah

just fans making up their own stories for her

[worthy rose]

Oh I meant like

the pve log stuff

[peak escarp]

that didn't seem particularly out of character

[worthy rose]

Ah then my bad

but anyway. So the writing team is laid off which means pharah can be put less in a position of whatever they were trying to do with her originally

I don't know if I should feel happy about folks losing their jobs

I'm a fan of pharah myself, maybe Twitter is getting too much in my head

just not much of a shipper person

Besides maybe mchanzo lmao

[peak escarp]

there's not much in the game supporting any of those ships

people are just hearing what they want to hear

[worthy rose]

and about pve being scrapped-

how do you think we will be getting a continuation of the lore?

[peak escarp]

in comics and short stories

[worthy rose]

and will this era of Overwatch actually end?

[peak escarp]

same as we did before

[worthy rose]

I'd think a Netflix TV show (similar to arcane or edgerunners) would do em well

[peak escarp]

maybe

but those take a while to produce

[worthy rose]

Arcane and edgerunners fixed the reputations of those games

So maybe I'd think the investment can be worth it

[peak escarp]

League already had a good reputation

[worthy rose]

Oh lmao

[peak escarp]

nothing to fix there

comics and short stories are fine

[worthy rose]

So the next comic can be genji saving zenyatta then

that'll be fun

[peak escarp]

I hope they still show the cutscenes for those missions

it would be a shame for all that work to go to waste

[worthy rose]

Hmm...maybe like super short shorts?

Or a teaser for the comic

That can be utilized to prepare some hype

it's like

genji comes in flinging his stars

He and zenyatta have an interaction as the rest of overwatch comes

Then as Genji jumps into the screen

It cuts to the cover of the comic

available 6/20/24

[golden oak]

I don’t think mercy having max’s pin means anything, I think they just reused models
Look at doom skin, they gave him Ana’s hat and soldier’s outfit

[peak escarp]

not exactly

and even if it is reused models, they could have removed the pin

[golden oak]

Pharah is so out of touch in this interaction btw

[golden oak]

They forgot to remove the Egyptian eagle on Doom’s hat 🤷‍♂️

[worthy rose]

I wanna ask the doc somethin.

So what are your top 5 wants in the next season in terms of skins

Like

what'd you think

would have an interesting lore

if switched around

[peak escarp]

idk

mirrorverse isn't canon so it doesn't matter

[worthy rose]

I honestly thought it'd be a good idea to have JQ as part of vishkar

imagine her having nice long hair like her metal skin

and she's just clean

[peak escarp]

we've already seen most of the skins anyway

[worthy rose]

Reaper 76 and Vigilante Reyes

hehehehe

that's gonna be sick

[desert yacht]

I mean yeah she’s kinda cringe for that but if anything I guess it sets up character growth

I think it’s funny that she tagged along with new ow almost on a whim and as soon as she got to Gibraltar she’s like holy shit these people actually need me or nothing is going to get done around here

[golden oak]

Vishkar Lucio

Evil Lucio would be funny

[worthy rose]

Kiriko needs a script change.

[worthy rose]

Bro has violin music instead 💀

[worthy rose]

She shouldn't be coming off as this smug sarcastic bitch

Sorry for my language

But

You've seen her in the cinematic, right?

[peak escarp]

these aren't the same model

[worthy rose]

even in the new comic where she and hanzo fight that Japanese clan

she felt more noble and honorable

than she felt ingame

[golden oak]

Well it doesn’t change the fact that it has Egyptian coat of arms on it

[worthy rose]

For once I was fine with the fact the annoying teenager saved my main 😭

[lavish vessel]

I love how he looks in this skin so much, he’s so cool

[golden oak]

I’m actually on kiri’s side here because pharah is wrong here because it’s not that easy to change laws

[peak escarp]

it's a good look for him

[worthy rose]

Do we have a chart on who's roles got switched?

[golden oak]

They could’ve just placed an overwatch logo there

[worthy rose]

Because does that mean Sym is the JQ?

Or smth

[golden oak]

Or Junkrat

[peak escarp]

it's not really role swapping

it's just faction swapping

[worthy rose]

But ana shot out widows eye this time around

And tracer is the new sigma, most likely Talon manipulating her time travel powers

[peak escarp]

Doom, Widow and Sombra are Overwatch
Rein, Brig, Tracer, Mercy and Ana are Talon
Symmetra is Junker

[golden oak]

Pretty sure Ana has still an eyepatch there

[golden oak]

Zen is null sector

[worthy rose]

Idek but widow has a cybernetic eye, shot out from Ana most likely

[desert yacht]

is anybody not on kiri’s side here

[golden oak]

No, Ana got her eye replaced voluntarily

It’s probably just an enhancement

[worthy rose]

man ana be taking Ls for real

Even in alt universes

@golden oak

Wait

Check dms.

Because I don't got photo perms

[golden oak]

I’m afraid all the mirror skins have been shown already

[worthy rose]

Oh I meant the ana design

She didn't lose her eye

[golden oak]

Ik I’m just saying

[worthy rose]

Oh lol

[golden oak]

Btw, was Baptiste skin on theme?

[worthy rose]

No, he's the off-theme outfit

Every bp has two off themes

[spare plover]

I was gonna say bap and sym but ig junker could be the opposite of vishkorp

[worthy rose]

I was hoping for a junker queen that's part of vishkar

she uses weapons created by vishkar

Like their trying to make a new generation of a warrior with Daz

(Daz is her name btw)

Sorta like trying to replicate the Soldier 76/Reaper serum

[lavish vessel]

Dez

Short for odessa I’m pretty sure

[worthy rose]

Yeah dez

@lavish vessel

But yeah, imagine this being jq's role change

she'd probably be a more mentally organized super soldier of some sort

[lavish vessel]

It could be cool, I’d love to see how good her axe looks made of hard light

[worthy rose]

What would her warriors cry be for that ability lmao

would she say "get up maggots, time to move" instead of that other word

[golden oak]

“Move it or you’re fired”

She would be mobbing queen

[worthy rose]

YES

@golden oak

wait wait

"You want an arm of yours chopped off? Move out!"

[golden oak]

Doesn’t make sense

[worthy rose]

Reference to how everyone in Vishkar chops off their arm after getting a job application

Happened to sym and lw

[golden oak]

We know sym has a prosthetic but others may just wear a glove

I think Vishkar swapped with junkers is supposed to be like chaos vs order

[worthy rose]

LMFAO

we're gonna see a mentally civilized

junkrat

and a lw who shoots scraps

[golden oak]

I think they already shown all the skins we’ll get for this theme

[worthy rose]

Oh no

They did have a wave 2

for each theme

[golden oak]

Because they showed a lot

[worthy rose]

we gotta wait until the mid season update

there's more skins for that theme possibly

Happened for starwatch I believe

Yeah it did

[golden oak]

All starwatch skins were shown in season trailer I believe

[worthy rose]

If that's it...man.

Yknow what they could've done?

A mentally stable sigma

[golden oak]

Not 100% sure of course but I just doubt we’ll get more bc they showed a lot in the trailer

[worthy rose]

If more role reversals are done,

Would you think we'd get a hanzo and genji switch?

[golden oak]

We didn’t get more skins from Greek mythology or starwatch

Or any other theme

[worthy rose]

Thought we did for starwatch

Because it was the

Oh wait

it was just good guys first

Then bad guys second

[golden oak]

This could either go genji being in talon and Hanzo… somewhere
Or genji being normal and Hanzo being cyborg
Or both

[worthy rose]

Hanzo being in overwatch,

Genji probably being defeated and brought back by Talon

that'd be sick.

The sort of arc you'd see of that compared to the Dragons cinematic

[golden oak]

Idk it’s a tricky swap, probably why they didn’t do it

[worthy rose]

would be insane

[worthy rose]

I know that's just

A reaper thing

But the Swiss hospital explosion never seemed to happen

[golden oak]

I low-key wanted talon soldier but I have a lot of soldiers skins already so whatever

[worthy rose]

Reaper 76 soldier

[golden oak]

Reaper overwatch Skin is just blackwatch Skin

Unless he would have the strike commander suit

[worthy rose]

Vigilante Reyes.

He'd probably have a dirty outfit

Of some sort

An all black coat, shirt, and pants

like imagine nick fury's outfit on Gabe

[golden oak]

Ngl I kinda wanna see how Reyes would look like in current age

[worthy rose]

Oh god I'm imagining it

Fuck

Uwqojwjqbshee

[golden oak]

Because whenever there’s a skin showing his face it’s always the young version

[worthy rose]

They want to keep it a mystery

it's kind of a meme

You may have seen his past, but the mystery of who he is now is hidden

[golden oak]

Not entirely, there’s a spray that shows a bit of his current face

[worthy rose]

Oh

[lavish vessel]

Oh that’s sick, I’ve never seen that spray

My favourite reaper skin too

[tranquil orbit]

Whilst i do agree w u i dont think most of thr fanbase likes to read 😭

[peak escarp]

that's their problem

get literate

[tranquil orbit]

So i think as long as they ignore cinematics the lores still gonna have the reputation of bejng dead

[tranquil orbit]

I wanna agree but their opinion matters 😭 blizzard follows pockets

[peak escarp]

the lore community likes the short stories and novels because you get more internal thoughts and worldbuilding than with comics/animation

[tranquil orbit]

Idt they need to be mutually exclusive ... i think it's just an issue of how they allocate their budget

1 pattern i noticed is that they mostly tend to have 1) big action set piece

[peak escarp]

short stories are also faster to produce than comics and both are much faster than animation

[tranquil orbit]

2. at least 2 in game characters featured

[peak escarp]

which is why we get fewer animations

[tranquil orbit]

Yh but my main fear js that they dont gain much attention

Like baptiste has so much interesting stuff in story form that most ppl dont know abt

For example

So thats why im thinking maybe they should consider releasing a few more of them asw if possible

It might draw in some new lore fans which might then in turn boost the short stories and comics

Like ibr i think after all the damage pve did they need to do more to get ppl interested in the lore again

[echo monolith]

Doomfist

[craggy cipher]

Ok so like the new season 10 trailer just released a few hours and it gave us new lore about the mirror watch universe and here are some things that probably need to be realized

Did doomfist ever leave his wife?

Is lucio apart of vishkar now?

Was widow the one who got shot in their eye?

Was ana brainwashed instead of widow?

And where's moira

Why are junker queen and symmetra's role reversed?

[peak escarp]

what wife?

[peak escarp]

we haven't seen JQ, she might not even exist in Mirrorwatch

we haven't gotten any lore for this AU

[spare fox]

they're not doing mirror universe for all the heroes

just some of them

like they've been doing all the events

[twilit patrol]

He had a wife?

[peak escarp]

no

[rocky ferry]

Did doomfist ever leave his husband?

[peak escarp]

he was never married

[golden oak]

Doom’s only love is martial arts

[hushed jetty]

i need to see inside mauga's head so bad

i NEED to see how he thinks

he needs a short story ASAP ‼️

[wind wind]

mans a real one

[loud cosmos]

lifequeefer uses the power of his rose toy to heal allies! 😊

[native gulch]

Queefer

[tacit yoke]

the lore actually so good whoever did it I hope you got a raise and also the voice actors

🤡 ow players: i refuse to put money and support ow devs

like if ur only supporting them

[hazy stone]

hey

so

[golden oak]

I’m afraid they got fired (not voice actors) alongside many other employees when the laid offs happened

[leaden galleon]

Who is they?

[hushed jetty]

the lore people

[leaden galleon]

So all the narrative designers? They got laid off?

That's not accurate

[opaque tundra]

Yeah there’s still narrative designers there. It would be impossible to create heroes without them

[tacit yoke]

did they go bankrupt or something I thought this game doing well

is it flopping like apex

oor new team

[keen bolt]

prob quit i wouldnt wanna work there either

[tacit yoke]

wasnt blizzard cancelled once 🤣 yall let that go fast

[spare fox]

I mean the house has been cleaned and changed owners since

[tranquil orbit]

It's merger activities

I dont want to say normal because tbh the reason why they were laid off was microsoft saw how pve was an absolute drain on resources and wasnt having any of that

It's sad because it means lore is unlikely to rly get any proper investment until theres proven interest again

There are still some narrative designers but it's v limited compared to before

We need a comeback so bad 😭

A good start would be announcing who's replacing gavin as lead - as far as ik still no news...

[worthy rose]

Gavin is disgusting

god

I know it's rude to say good riddance for a job layoff because nobody deserves that

but the way he treated people?

we just need someone who was experienced in the ow1 writing to come back then we'd be fine, as well as someone who doesn't have somewhat of a weird way of thinking and blocking people instantly who may disagree where he was taking the story

Because they would know these characters better than the new gen ever will

I want the lore to feel more like how overwatch 1 felt, right now it feels a bit

Less like you're seeing a large group strut their stuff and express things among each other (that's what comics and shorts are good for)

that's the problem PVE posed to me, like I love the mode don't get me wrong

But with the diverse sets of character selections

we don't actually know what's the canon teams that went out and did these missions

besides Sojourn in toronto

that's why I really liked Ironclad, it was the four heroes and that was it

we know these interactions are very canon and not coincidental

sorry for typing too much lol

[leaden galleon]

?

[worthy rose]

I may have to explain in dms

It's probably not supposed to be in here

[worthy rose]

Also about this

[leaden galleon]

There are plenty of valid criticisms for the direction he took with the game's story and characters but everyone has only said good things about who he is as a person

[worthy rose]

I want more of what we saw

In zero hour

[worthy rose]

Oh. It was more like Twitter stuff

He basically blocked anybody who disagreed with his ideas

And he had a pharmercy ...ick.

To put it in sfw terms

[leaden galleon]

I know about the whole controversy with him and popular ships

[worthy rose]

I'm not a shipper but I don't think we should have those types of people touch characters alot of people correlate with

[leaden galleon]

Did he actually block people?

[worthy rose]

Yep.

[leaden galleon]

Yeah I don't care at all for ships either, I'd prefer the people in charge of the game's story to not fixate on them

[worthy rose]

but yeah, now that he's gone

we don't have to worry about it and characters don't have to be pushed to things they shouldn't

[worthy rose]

So read this

My issue with pve is mainly that

If we're going with the 4 player format

We don't actually know who was the people that did these missions

or if the interactions were real or not

Which frustrates me lmfao

because PVE is true canon stuff

But at this point

I might as well only consider ironclads stuff on the characters canon

I'm hoping that the doc has a good explanation for me

Or is it simply just

In missions

You're playing as four of the heroes,

But the other heroes in the mission are still existing (just not fighting in the mission itself, just invisible. That's how it was in the Rio mission, we saw everybody escape from the ship)

[spare fox]

All the characters who are available to play for those missions were canonically there

They just split into teams

[worthy rose]

Ohh

I just really wanna know who was with sojourn canonically

[spare fox]

Well all of them canonically but we very well couldn't have a mission with a team of that many heroes

[worthy rose]

Rio is definitely Rein Lucio tracer and mei

[worthy rose]

Imagine how cool it'd be lmfao

youre a team of 4, and then the rest of the team is npcs who could help you

But alas probably would be too buggy

[peak escarp]

it's hilarious that people hate Gavin for "pushing a ship" when people hated Michael Chu for the same thing

also, as head writer, they're allowed to write whatever ship they want

it's their story

[hushed jetty]

apparently gavin has some bonkers favorite ship

he hasnt said what it is exactly but apparently we'd "100% never guess" and its "something he hasnt seen the fans pick up"

[tranquil orbit]

Tbh ow is never gonna be the type of story where shipping is front and centre

This is not xmen where theres an obligatory love triangle and wedding every story 😭

A majority of shipping rn is rly just twitter stuff and built heavily on headcanons w lack of evidence

So i find it v hard to take sides when it comes to that sort of thing

Outside of established ones

[tranquil orbit]

Wheh u said this i thought u were hinting more towards toxic work environment 😭

Anyways regardless of how ppl feel abt gavin we do still need a new team lead if we wanna be confident theyll be backing the lore going forwadsa

[worthy rose]

He was pushing gency?

I thought it was just the pharmercy comm just

accusing him of such

And he was just a normal guy

[worthy rose]

Like I daid

Said*

We don't need a new modern writer, that's what made me sort of unsettled with PVE

They will not know the characters inside and out

A writer from OW1's team being placed as a lead

would put the games lore at a really good place

Hell, they can improve the lores of so many characters.

Legit they never touched sigma for example since the time he released

He was never put into battle, he never actually harnessed throwable black holes yet

The sigma we see rn is a "What if" varient if some sort

Illari, ESPECIALLY illari

Needs lore rn too

What can really happen with her besides maybe the Null Sector attacking her home and overwatch coming in to help?

All we really know about lifeweaver for now is that he worked for vishkar and then rebelled, now he's considered a criminal

If they got touched by ow1 writers

Omfg

We'd be eating a Thanksgiving dinner

These new writers can barely write these heroes in my opinion

Besides kiriko and ramattra

[opaque tundra]

Employees leave all the time and it is impossible to keep every OG writer on the team for 10+ years. New writers are needed and it’s only natural that they’re not as acquainted with previous characters. Some don’t have as much lore as others

[worthy rose]

Can't count Mauga or Sojourn

they were already established characters

Ramattra was also established but his lore wasn't introduced

Ohhh

Then why not have someone who just generally

loves overwatch

Thats what we need then

Sorry if I typed too much

[opaque tundra]

If the writers team consisted of solely Overwatch fans, then the lore would be horribly fan fictiony

[worthy rose]

I'm a chatterbox

[tranquil orbit]

Wouldn't mind someone from the first team but honestly i think as long as like u said they love the material and wanna put their spin on it

I have no issue

[opaque tundra]

I’m sorry but you can’t just give fans the power to alter the universe just bc they’d “understand the characters better”

[tranquil orbit]

My main problem acc w the gen 2 writing team was that they seemingly made things a bjt too lighthearted at times

[worthy rose]

Gavin didn't seem that way to me

[tranquil orbit]

And when serious things come up like illari accidentally killing all of the inti

They kinda skrt around the issue and vague things in dialogue

Rather than give a fleshed out story

It wasnt a consistent issue but i did notice the way it was going was more lighthearted

[opaque tundra]

She hasn’t had any lore appearances since her launch. I’m sure they’ll explore that trauma in depth when the time comes

[tranquil orbit]

Previous characters wouldve had that fleshed out

Someone like baptiste did for example

We can only use this excuse for so long

[worthy rose]

The reason all these heroes have a very dry origin story is because the lore writers are rushing them out for their main release.

[tranquil orbit]

She arrived in august iirc

Last year

[worthy rose]

The lore followers is a small fanbase

Compared to the gameplay followers

so the overall majority doesn't really care

At least how I think

[opaque tundra]

They’re not being rushed out. The hero release schedule is just like previous years

[worthy rose]

Oh

[tranquil orbit]

Yh i think now it's more an issue that they dont feel obliged to launch heroes w much lore

Which is rly sad imo

Like i said illari wouldve had something more by now were they following their previous methods

[opaque tundra]

Guys there are 40 heroes in the game now and we only get lore drops like every 3 months and blizzard’s execs clearly do not care about the lore so yes not every hero can get fleshed out and fully realized as soon as they exist

[tranquil orbit]

Idk i feel like number of heroes isnt rly an excuse league manages to do way more for example

[worthy rose]

More like every three years

[tranquil orbit]

And why are we so limited × lore drops?

I'd understand if they were only doing cinematic

But theyve slowed thoae down too

Rn we're lucky to get a few short stories every 6 months 😭

Shambles

[opaque tundra]

Higher ups don’t care + writers team small + outsourcing to freelancers + wanting to drag out the story for as long as possible

I would love to have constant lore and more exploration for the characters but with everything going on, it doesn’t feel possible

[peak escarp]

OW1 writers never touched Lucio, and Zenyatta didn't get a story until 2019

[worthy rose]

2019 was the development halt for the game

[tranquil orbit]

Still they wouldnt drop a new character with nothing for almost a year

Those 2 have the excuse that they were og characters that got left behind

[worthy rose]

Also sigma

[opaque tundra]

Moira
Brigitte
Wrecking Ball
Sigma
Orisa

[tranquil orbit]

Moira brig ball had stuff i swear?

[opaque tundra]

None of those heroes got lore drops after their launch

[peak escarp]

Orisa didn't get any new lore between her release in 2017 and Hero of Numbani in 2020

[opaque tundra]

Brig was in comics before and Ball only got his first lore appearance recently

[worthy rose]

I'd think if they made an archives mission with Orisa, Lucio, (possibly others it may have to retcon the novel) in Numbani to remake the fight with doomfist

That'd be sick

[peak escarp]

Moira had an appearance in Retribution and then nothing

[tranquil orbit]

Yh the retribution appearance u cant just ignore tho

Thats major

Also i think it might also be a case of the newer characters just not being as fleshed out in their launch videos

Which makes me feeling like theyre still incomplete

Whilst the others i was more willing to wait

[peak escarp]

Sigma didn't appear in the lore until a cameo in Code of Violence (2019 to 2022)

[worthy rose]

Yeah that

really upsets me

[tranquil orbit]

But sigma's launch video is so much more intriguing than anything else weve seen

[worthy rose]

that's the only thing canonically

he's been in

[tranquil orbit]

Comparing that to illaris one i think is disingenuous

[worthy rose]

since the original trailer

[worthy rose]

That one felt generic

[opaque tundra]

Ok I’m lost now: what is “fleshed out” to you guys?

[tranquil orbit]

Altho w sigma hes also been v neglected too

[worthy rose]

Ramattra

Mauga

Sojurn

Sojourn*

Those types of characters

[peak escarp]

Ball didnt appear in the lore until a cameo in JQ's origin story (2018 to 2022) and didn't get an active role in any lore until 2024

[worthy rose]

They have alot of depth behind them

[opaque tundra]

So round characters?

[tranquil orbit]

U can't just leave the backstory halfway done like they did w illari is my point... esp considering what happened

We know half a character in her case

[peak escarp]

it doesn't tell us much about his character - it's all spectacle

[worthy rose]

Kiriko has good potential if her voice acting didn't sound like a self insert ingame basically deconstructing her character

[tranquil orbit]

Id argue we can infer far more from it than the more recent approaches

Even if not much is said explicitly

[worthy rose]

The new comic had Kiriko and Hanzo save a village

I felt happy about that

[tranquil orbit]

I mean this is the pov of someone losing their sanity after all

[peak escarp]

Illari hasn't even existed for a year yet

[tranquil orbit]

It's coming up to a year now

We should have more

[peak escarp]

she's also not a core character

[opaque tundra]

It’s implied/confirmed (?) that we’re gonna get Illari lore with the Peru map

[tranquil orbit]

Im not having tbis she deserves something 😭

Same w sigma tbh

[worthy rose]

But what can they really do about Illari lmao?

The only way she can interact with overwatch is if the Null Sector invades her home and she calls on overwatch to help kick them out

And then she joins em

[tranquil orbit]

Pls just make her join talon

[worthy rose]

Which is just so generic

[peak escarp]

based on how other non-core characters have been treated (Orisa, Sigma, Ball), no we shouldn't

[tranquil orbit]

No fun allowed 😭

Damn

Ball i acc think is a fairly ok place rn considering the only thing i find interesting rn is stuff w winston

[worthy rose]

Nah as much as I want to see that happen

An 18 year old doesn't know whats right from wrong in terns of evil and good. She just wants forgiveness (I'm probably stupid for saying this)

Imagine her getting manipulated by Sombra or Doomfist

[peak escarp]

it would be interesting to see Talon recruit someone

[tranquil orbit]

Which cant rly be happening any time soon

[peak escarp]

since we've only seen Overwatch recruit new members

[tranquil orbit]

Yh wait whats wrong tho

They manipulate her into joining

[worthy rose]

It's an obvious trope here, nobody is gonna join talon

Everyone's gotta be good

[opaque tundra]

Someone could tho

[tranquil orbit]

I mean baptiste did at one point

[worthy rose]

yeah but he obviously rebelled

[tranquil orbit]

It's not that crazy to think shed fall for the same rhetoric

Esp cos as u said

She's so young

[worthy rose]

I kinda want Hanzo to join Talon

I know he rejected it

[tranquil orbit]

That acc wont happen

[worthy rose]

Canonically

[tranquil orbit]

Exactly

[worthy rose]

but I mean like

[peak escarp]

Illari is young and vulnerable, I could see Talon making a convincing argument

[worthy rose]

Doing a widowmaker

brainwashing him

[opaque tundra]

Illari is already in contact with Sombra based on interactions

Well I think so

[tranquil orbit]

We arent rly sure how canon those are

[peak escarp]

Widowmaker wasn't brainwashed

[tranquil orbit]

Theyre hypotheticals

[peak escarp]

she was conditioned

[tranquil orbit]

So we dont acc know where to draw the line just yet

W her and sombra

[worthy rose]

Isn't that basically the same thing?

[tranquil orbit]

But hopefully they are

[golden oak]

No, Microsoft bought blizzard so they fired a lot of people and hired their own people probably or just cheaper workers

[peak escarp]

to me, brainwashing means to make someone share your ideals and goals - Widowmaker doesn't share Talon's ideals, she just enjoys killing

[tranquil orbit]

Tbh from what weve seen talons ideals arent rly shared by most of it's core agents

Or at least the ones we care abt

[peak escarp]

she's currently acting under her own free will

[tranquil orbit]

Reaper is a lost soul

Moira just wants to experiment

Mauga is a free sprint

[worthy rose]

Nah,

All these company layoffs is because companies realized they can just make less content and more cosmetics and people would eat it up. look at fortnite for example

[tranquil orbit]

Sombra acts on her own profiteering terms

Whilst doomfist defo has some strong rhetoric all of our fav talon agents seem to be in it on their own terms

Illari might make a cool exception to that if she was 'convinced'

[worthy rose]

Mauga on the other hand just doesn't give a shit 😭

[tranquil orbit]

Thats what im saying tho

None of them rly have much loyalty to thr cause

[golden oak]

Maybe but it happened shortly after Microsoft took over

[tranquil orbit]

Theyre doing it either because they have nothing better or theyre using talon for their personal motives

Characters w doomfist indoctrination needed

[worthy rose]

It kinda proves my idea in a way

They cut off the PVE team because they didn't see it as a profitable idea, and the amount of heart and time it'd take to create it would be painstaking

Although

Pve is profitable

[tranquil orbit]

It's not 😭

[worthy rose]

People adore the lore of this game with the comics, cinematics, etc

Why not?

[tranquil orbit]

The first launch lost money

[peak escarp]

it could be, if they put effort into it

[tranquil orbit]

The lore id say is profitable

[worthy rose]

Oh?

[tranquil orbit]

Not the pve

[tranquil orbit]

A lot

[peak escarp]

but they sabotaged it from the start

[opaque tundra]

If pve was given a second chance to improve itself it could’ve succeeded

[tranquil orbit]

The ow tean literally got refused profit sharing bonuses because of how bad that launch was

[golden oak]

I’m sad about all those talented people losing their jobs, which must be pretty scary thing to happen to you in America since you gotta find a new one pretty fast

[tranquil orbit]

They arent gonna touch pve w a 10 ft pole for years i dont think

Lore on the other hand more generally

[peak escarp]

the Rio mission was the same since 2019 - if they were allowed to improve it, the PvE would have been more successful

[tranquil orbit]

That needs to continue

Start imo by releasing the cinematics for what wouldve been the next set of missions

[peak escarp]

if the didnt cancel talents and hero missions, the PvE would have been more successful

[tranquil orbit]

From what i can tell at least a couple of them should be near completion

[opaque tundra]

I think the rio mission was the same bc it just worked lol

[tranquil orbit]

My fav mission was acc gothenburg

Idk what that says

But i rlt loved rein bastions story

[peak escarp]

it lacked the polish that the Toronto mission had

[tranquil orbit]

Maybe idk if judging the pve missions on gameplay is rly a good idea tho

[golden oak]

What were they doing through all these years

[tranquil orbit]

But story wise i found gothenburg the most intriguing

[opaque tundra]

Working on missions

[peak escarp]

being tasked to other projects

[opaque tundra]

They were working on missions for the past 5 years

[tranquil orbit]

The truth is a lot of pve missions have been scrapped

They do have some finished material

But it's incomplete

I think our best hope is something from the next set releases

[golden oak]

Like what? I’ve heard ow1 was pretty dead of content in the last years

[peak escarp]

Blizzard management didn't want PvE to succeed, so they sabotaged it internally

[worthy rose]

Just drinking a few beers

Maybe a few movies

Sitting on a sofa from 2019 to September 2023, when they realized they had to make a whole new overwatch so they just recolored everything lmfao

[opaque tundra]

Yeah the official silence makes me think they might actually release the next set

[peak escarp]

OW2 stuff that they were saving for later

[tranquil orbit]

From what i heard the bobby kotick management used to literally get ppl to work on things for the pve then call it rubish after months

Lirerally tossing away hard work

Which is why it took so long to do basically nothing

They ended up backing out too late

And thats how we ended up where we are

[ruby ridge]

Remember a lot of what we heard aren’t 100% at all, it was all from dexerto/that one journalist article with “anonymous sources”

[tranquil orbit]

That journalist is pretty respected tbh

This is just how investigative journalism works

And tbh i trust some of it more than i do from a pr trained activision exec

[ruby ridge]

Until we hear it from Aaron’s Kelley’s pretty mouth it’s not confirmed

[tranquil orbit]

We're never going to hear it from his mouth

Theyd never let him

[golden oak]

So like hero mastery, events and stuff?

[tranquil orbit]

It'd jeopardise the entire company

[peak escarp]

I guess

[ruby ridge]

The journalist is also making a book about the “rise and fall” of blizzard and a lot of stuff he said “will be releasing in my book” I think it may be a big publicity stunt

[opaque tundra]

The writing’s already on the wall but they do have to say something

[tranquil orbit]

Thats why investigative journalism exists

[peak escarp]

we don't know for sure

[tranquil orbit]

I hate to break it to u but the twitter outrage crowd is not the ppl buying that book

[opaque tundra]

If they can announce the hero talents are cancelled, they can announce story missions is too

[golden oak]

Choosing hero mastery over pve missions is wild

[tranquil orbit]

Journalists sell books based on reputation of integrity and thorough contacts and research

Basically ppl who are v knowledgeable in the game industry can sniff inconsistencies from a mile away

There's no anti activision conspiracy here

They rly just fucked up that bad

And it's how we lost half our lore team

[worthy rose]

Yeah that mode won't really

Improve

[tranquil orbit]

Pls let them bounce back 😭

[worthy rose]

your skill

Maybe on some particular heroes like mercy

Like practicing resurrection

but that's really all I can think of

[peak escarp]

idk, the D.Va one helped with my jet usage

[worthy rose]

Yeah I was gonna mention her too

[peak escarp]

it's good practice for stopping where you want

[worthy rose]

Maybe one aspect of each character I'd think

[peak escarp]

and Lucio is good wall riding practice

[worthy rose]

But wouldn't you get better by just playing the game?

[peak escarp]

so they do have a purpose

[worthy rose]

That's how I got to be good at hanzo

[tranquil orbit]

For a brand new player i can kinda see it being alright

[peak escarp]

I have too much anxiety to practice in a match

[tranquil orbit]

As a practice range alternative

[worthy rose]

Fair enough

[ruby ridge]

I personally think the hero mastery are basically useless, they have pve abilities that aren’t even in the real game

[tranquil orbit]

But yes

[peak escarp]

I just want to work on mechanics in a low stress environment

[tranquil orbit]

Still ppl have fun w the hero mastery thing so i think it's all that matters

Even if it's a niche fanbasw

[golden oak]

I go to a custom game whenever I wanna do that, because at least I have moving bots which have character models and not training bots

[tranquil orbit]

Like i see eskay doing all kinds of madness w records and limit testing when shes out of queue

So it has SOME ppl interested

[peak escarp]

too much effort

[golden oak]

Not really, i have the game mode in marked with a star in my list and I just make a lobby and play it

[worthy rose]

i have an idea

why not have "AI vs You" team games, like we already have

but you can increase the difficulty

and choose the team you'd like to fight

like say you want to practice against a dive team?

okay, lets choose d.va tracer lucio venture etc

Difficulty
easy, medium, hard, extreme

like in their skill

[golden oak]

AI is too dumb for overwatch gameplay

[worthy rose]

and you choose your own ai team or your friends can play

[peak escarp]

because the AI won't play them like a dive team

[golden oak]

How you gonna teach AI timings, cool-down usage etc

[peak escarp]

they'll just play them normally

and fall back when they're down 2

[worthy rose]

Oh

yall would like the idea if it was possible tho?

[peak escarp]

I don't think it would be that useful

[zenith mango]

Is it possible for someone who owns the heroes ascendant book to send the stories

Or is that hardcore illegal

[peak escarp]

probably illegal

also a lot of work to scan/photograph each page

[tranquil orbit]

Im also tryna read all of those too if anyone knows 😭

Like where to find

[spare fox]

I would say pester someone official on twitter to have them release a digital copy on kindle or ebook, for sale I mean

So many have been asking for it

Idk who though

[viral tendon]

It’s easy if you have a VPN /torrent browser

Cuz you can access illegal sites that’s how I read heroes ascendant deadlocke rebels n a bunch of others

[tranquil orbit]

for heroes ascendent i literally just free trialed it on an ebook browser

but that released in 2023 or soemthing like that i think?

brand new stuff i have issues finding them

[tranquil orbit]

this is such facts

idk why they insist on only doing hard copies w insane shipping prices

they restrict so many ppl who acc want to read and are interested in the lore

esp non US/Canada

[spare fox]

Agreed and they used to release digital copies of the novels

I think they switched from Dark Horse to in-house publishing so idk

[sterile parcel]

is doom the strongest in the lore? i dont catch up with ow lore lol

[rare trail]

not really

orisa and winston have beaten him before

hes pretty strong though

[sterile parcel]

ohh i see

[rare trail]

like top 5 or 6

[sterile parcel]

is ramatraa strong? my fav character lol'

[sterile parcel]

oo interesting, so whos the strongest in ow lore?

[rare trail]

ram hasnt personally fought anyone so we dont really know

[sterile parcel]

ah ok

[rare trail]

winston or orisa

[sterile parcel]

😦

i dont like those characters ngl

😭

honestly

ramatra seems pretty strong

[rare trail]

sigma sym and lifeweaver might be strong but thats mostly speculation

[sterile parcel]

maybe stronger than doom in lore

[sterile parcel]

ii think ram is top 5

[rare trail]

we dont really know

nemesis hasnt been shown yet so

[tranquil orbit]

when nemesis form does get revealed it likely puts ram in no1 power scaling wise

theres not much anyone can do on their own to stop him tbh

[tranquil orbit]

but yh as was said ... it's all speculation

[rare trail]

why?

[tranquil orbit]

my reasoning is 1) he's giant 2) v controlled psychologically - doesnt rly lose his temper 3) annihilation 4) SUFFER AS I HAVE

also i heard a rumour that it was gonna take rein to self sacrifice to defeat him

while that was most likely fake

[rare trail]

nemesis wouldnt necessarily mean annihilation was canon

[tranquil orbit]

thats a boss move

[tranquil orbit]

trust theres no way theyre passing up on that chance

pure box office ugm

[hushed jetty]

"doesnt rly lose his temper" SEVERE cap

literally in his short story iirc he punches the hell out of a tv in rage

[tranquil orbit]

in a fight i mean

[rare trail]

theres no reason to assume that

[tranquil orbit]

like he's not rly the type to compromise himself i dont think

but thats more my assumption

[hushed jetty]

well we've never seen him in a fight, so thats not an assumption we can rly make

[tranquil orbit]

true but like we said all of this is basically assumptions

we havent seen much of him at all

point is i think theres a difference between having rage and just acting rash in a fight like rein might do

maybe losing temper wasnt the right word

[rare trail]

wdym like rein might do

in dragons and zero hour he didnt act rash

[tranquil orbit]

bro almost ripped an omnics head clean off and almost battered bastion to pieces

i love rein but i would not trust him to keep his cool in certain situations

esp not without certain ppl to hold him back

[rare trail]

what are you referring to with the ripping an omnics head off

[tranquil orbit]

remember the null sector head piece things

reinhardt has a lot of things in him ... patience and composure not so much

[rare trail]

also "almost battered bastion to pieces" is like not really close to what happened and thats not really him acting rash

[tranquil orbit]

on the other hand i have more reason to believe ram could be a strategist

[rare trail]

like he saw an enemy and tried to attack them??? how is that rash??

[tranquil orbit]

admittedly it was likely some war ptsd but it was rash because had torbjorn not been there it wouldve gotten messy

bastion literally goes into turret form

[rare trail]

its not rash to see an enemy and try to attack them

[tranquil orbit]

it is depending on the context

theres also more minor details like when he launches himself out of the plane in rio

and he starts talking to lucio and he just doesnt even know if he's serious or not

like lets be fr abt rein here 😭

[worthy rose]

And the context was, from his perspective, that there is a killer robot with his god-daughter and his closest friend. They could both possibly die, of course that wasn't the case though.

He could be considered rash, but it was in order to protect the people he cared for, just like how almost anyone else would

[tranquil orbit]

there are 2 responses in that situation - it's a bit like if u see a bear in the wild

[rare trail]

uh not really

[tranquil orbit]

theres the back off approach and the go swinging in approach

[rare trail]

bears arent like malicious

bastion from reins pov is an enemy combatant

[worthy rose]

Also known to only be programmed to kill

[tranquil orbit]

i get what youre saying but it's moreso abt the way he approaches the situation rather than if he sees him as an enemy or not

[worthy rose]

(again, wasn't the case, but from his pov he couldn't have known any different)

[rare trail]

approaching an enemy combatant with hostility isnt crazy or rash

[tranquil orbit]

the part that makes it rash is leaping to said conclusion when u dont acc have a full grasp of a situation

[worthy rose]

Especially in the context
God-daughter
Close friend

[rare trail]

bro

bastion is LITERALLY the ONLY type of that robot that wouldnt kill them

it would be insanely rash to assume that a bastion wasnt hostile

[tranquil orbit]

im not saying that he shouldnt have assumed that

but he doesnt ask qs

doesnt lose any time

goes straight in swinging

[worthy rose]

Where is Lore Warlord when you need her

[tranquil orbit]

thats just how reinhardt is

[rare trail]

he didnt go straight in swinging

he literally said "get behind me" he was being defensive

[tranquil orbit]

iirc he says "it's null sector! theyve found us!" or something liek that

[worthy rose]

Yes, given the context

[tranquil orbit]

he also runs towards bastion who's just standing there in a corner with his little cap

[worthy rose]

Behaved defensively -- Not rashly and offensively

[tranquil orbit]

like if u rewatch the scene he doesnt come across as defensive for me

[worthy rose]

Well now that's

[tranquil orbit]

i understand what youre both saying abt the motivation

[rare trail]

rewatch the scene

bastion went in to turret form

[tranquil orbit]

i have he only does so AFTER rein starts running towards him w his hammer

[worthy rose]

Yeah I haven't played pve since I last played with my ex

[tranquil orbit]

but for me what makes this rein's character is HOW he approaches the situation

rather than what he thinks abt bastion

[rare trail]

he approaches an enemy combatant with hostility 🤯

[tranquil orbit]

and torb knows this asw he even talks abt how reins v much still stuck in the past and refuses to change

[tranquil orbit]

if he takes things slower there torbjorn doesnt literally need to stand in between his hammer and a turret form bastion

thats my point

and we know this is in character for rein

[rare trail]

if he takes things slower there and it wasnt the only bastion in the world that isnt a killing machine people couldve died

[tranquil orbit]

not necessarily ... once again it comes down to nuance i think

u can forgive him for acting rashly here because as weve said ptsd

but for me it is still rash no matter what the motivation is

it might be natural but something bad still couldve happened

[rare trail]

every bastion in the world besides for that specific one is a killing machine theres no reason for rein to assume that this bastion is different

[worthy rose]

WHY HAVE YALL BEEN TYPING FOR TWO MINS

😭

[tranquil orbit]

i realise what youre saying that for him in his mind theres no reason to question anything

but this is also just how rein is ... he doesnt rly ask qs first and is v much action driven

[rare trail]

you dont ask questions to a killing machine

[tranquil orbit]

a good point of comparison might be the binary comic where torb meets bastion for the first time

different contexts but torb DOES q theso called killing machine

[rare trail]

the contexts are too different to be comparable

rein thought he was getting ambushed

[worthy rose]

The ambush looking at a wall

[rare trail]

torb was much more in control of the situation

[tranquil orbit]

in my mind there are certain characters who wouldve not done what rein did still

if that makes sense?

[rare trail]

who

[worthy rose]

Yes

[rare trail]

if it wasnt rein bastion probably would be dead tbh

[tranquil orbit]

ana for example

[rare trail]

ana wouldve just shot bastion

[tranquil orbit]

i dont think so acc

[worthy rose]

Y'all went from typing for three minutes to writing one sentence rebuttals that go along the lines of "nuh uh" and "yuh huh"

[tranquil orbit]

i gotta disagree there ... had torb not been there they both wouldve been hurt at least

[tranquil orbit]

nah im sorry ok im just justifying my argument here 😭

i dont think it's crazy to say rein is a more rash individual tho

in this context maybe it is more ambiguous as weve discussed because we both clearly have points here

[worthy rose]

Rein is more rash than others, yes

[rare trail]

if the person had a ranged weapon bastion wouldve been shot