Does overwatch onow if null sector are sentient
#lore-discussion
keen summit
alpine pawn
other people doing something horrible doesnt make it less bad
peak escarp
he can have all the good intentions he wants, but he's still waging a global war in order to do it
wispy fable
Does overwatch onow if null sector are sentient
most ppl probably do by now
ah nvm didn't see null sector read omnics mb
alpine pawn
also isnt like overwatch is killing civilians their killing bots killing civilians
keen summit
most of Null Sector aren't sentient
I know
alpine pawn
even if they were sentient their still have to kill them to defend the innocent
keen summit
I dont see how
peak escarp
that's why Ramattra can send them to war without guilt
keen summit
that's why Ramattra can send them to war without guilt
Yeah those are created after initial wave of sentience
alpine pawn
I dont see how
we only ever see omnics in the sneak peaks for the mission, otherwise is empty
alpine pawn
yeah murder is kinda a last resort you agree upon when being a justice fighter outlaw, or it would if dc hadnt brainwashed us into moral purity
coff coff lazy plot device to keeping nemesis alive
keen summit
Wgat
Im just happy rama us well written
Jq felt wasted and kiri is the worst written
alpine pawn
i think jq is just more relevant for the secondary arc that is junkertown
but yeah kiriko is just there to advance the shimada plot lol
keen summit
Also cuz of the 4th wall breaks cpuld be implimented as her thinking shes always watched and stuff but no
keen summit
but yeah kiriko is just there to advance the shimada plot lol
Not even
She didnt advance it
She didnt add anything except what makes the story worse imho by implimenting SPIRITS
peak escarp
Also cuz of the 4th wall breaks cpuld be implimented as her thinking shes always...
the 4th wall breaks were just for comedic effect
keen summit
Ik
peak escarp
She didnt add anything except what makes the story worse imho by implimenting SP...
spirits were always part of the lore
keen summit
But it kinda wouldbe been cool if it actually stayed to make it in character
peak escarp
Genji and Hanzo have had them since the beginning
keen summit
spirits were always part of the lore
Yes but we never knew for sure.
alpine pawn
i mean their not subtle in dragons
keen summit
Genji and Hanzo have had them since the beginning
I remember people here getting mad at me for pointing it out
alpine pawn
theres no tech that make you shoot giant colorful dragons from your weapon
keen summit
theres no tech that make you shoot giant colorful dragons from your weapon
Hardlight is near limitless
All it needs really us to be projected
You could say the arrow and the sword where projectors
Hanzo already had that in arrows with scatter
alpine pawn
yeah but is also well stablish it can only be used by stablished architects as more humans just suck at it
keen summit
yeah but is also well stablish it can only be used by stablished architects as m...
Not really?
Hardlight is used by lots
alpine pawn
even then is implied only symmetra can really be at well her own level
keen summit
even then is implied only symmetra can really be at well her own level
Yes? Shes better than others but others can use it
The only limit with all hardlight is it needs to be projected
alpine pawn
yeah but seems like is something you have to be taught and have the tech, i doubt the shimadas just put it in all their weapons, also the way they use it just seems contrary to the way symmetra does
also most important we have no reason to believe is hardlight in lore so that really makes it a theory
keen summit
yeah but seems like is something you have to be taught and have the tech, i doub...
Yes i know
But making it actually spirits instead of symbolic makes suddenly novreal rules exist
We were told "there is no magic" they couldve done hard light, nano bots etc
alpine pawn
yeah i agree is silly af but is what it is
keen summit
But now spirits exist confirmed and we have spirit powers, not magic in their opinion
peak escarp
people thought it was hardlight because it was the best explanation in the face of "it's not magic"
keen summit
And well kiri is really bad in writing but i think by now i can habe kiri lore hater as subtitle cuz ive rantef alot
peak escarp
but it turns out it is magic after all
keen summit
but it turns out it is magic after all
Yep
peak escarp
and I'm okay with that
keen summit
Im okay with it too, its just they dont do anything with it
peak escarp
as long as the magic has rules
alpine pawn
i just wish they gave it some rules yeah
keen summit
as long as the magic has rules
Only in japan
The worst part is thry have a line with zen about magic being science you dont understand but then japan exists
I can rant for 20 hours as to why i hate kiriko's lore
Cuz the spirits part is just a small gripe cuz i like going into the logic of things
Cuz i also did excessive amount of stuff woth hardlight when i was proving before kiri dropped that it couldnt be hardlight
If we take barriers as hardlight too then it all holds 1 rule, it needs to be projected. With sym its with her prosthethic and she reshapes it, then she can place stuff. Barriers the well middle or with sigma the 4 parts are the projectors
peak escarp
the dragons being hardlight was always a stretch tbh
"oh there's emitters in the tattoo"
"it's DNA coded, so only Shimadas can use it"
I'm guilty of this too
alpine pawn
yeah thats a streatch specially with their interaction in dragons
keen summit
"oh there's emitters in the tattoo"
"it's DNA coded, so only Shimadas can use it...
I never believed those, i just thought its probs in the arrows and sword and only shimadas have the pattent for the tec
keen summit
yeah thats a streatch specially with their interaction in dragons
It just gets turned
peak escarp
but the short shows the dragon coming out of his tattoo, not the arrows
alpine pawn
yeah but by that theory it getting turned makes no sense
keen summit
yeah but by that theory it getting turned makes no sense
Not really
Hardlight can get deflected
Again
Hardlight has nearly no limits
alpine pawn
yeah but then hanzo wouldnt reacted like, oh wow he can control it more like, good moves, also is very much limited
peak escarp
when have we seen hardlight be deflected?
alpine pawn
is a human making it they cant make it if their ignorant of what their building
keen summit
when have we seen hardlight be deflected?
Technically in game with symm ball
alpine pawn
when have we seen hardlight be deflected?
ingame? but that hardly counts
like honestly thats just assuming a lot about what hardlight is when is just hardlight
alpine pawn
its clearly solid we can say that since it can sustain weight and block
keen summit
And that is, WHY ONLY JAPAN
peak escarp
it's not only Japan
alpine pawn
we dont know if is only japan thats never been said
peak escarp
Zen's healing and floating are "gifts from the Iris"
alpine pawn
the logical assumption is that spirits are real everywhere
keen summit
its clearly solid we can say that since it can sustain weight and block
But if we take barriers as hardlight which would make sense it can also let things pass through
keen summit
we dont know if is only japan thats never been said
Yes ik, but everyone with actual connections to spirits that is confirmed are from japan
alpine pawn
i imagine since is light it would depend on how solid, who says satya cant just adjust the solidity of her shots?
shes honestly just nerfed for the game she could do everything she does and more
keen summit
i imagine since is light it would depend on how solid, who says satya cant just ...
Yes but we saw with rein a rocket go through in lore
But the barriers stopping shots
alpine pawn
yes but rein is using a specific piece of technology, he isnt creating it from hardlight like symmetra
alpine pawn
dude your not getting the point
keen summit
Its like vishkar is the apple for hardlight
alpine pawn
im not saying he doesnt use that tech but is not the same as the devices symm uses to create constructs
alpine pawn
the device creates a shield predeterminated, in symmetras case she uses heres to create any hardlight patterns
keen summit
What is your point then
alpine pawn
and shes stated and shown to be able to create, statues, bridges and a kilometer axe
she can create virtually anything she can think and know how to build
so shes not limited to shields and turrets would she learn how to make a null sector droid she could do one and so on
keen summit
Yes so its basically limitless, and what i mean by that is if you create something with hardlight it can do anything really aslong as its programmed to
alpine pawn
cause her turrets prove she can also create working robotics
alpine pawn
i only pointed out that rein cant do that
keen summit
From what we know brig made hers herself
alpine pawn
yeah but again she made a personal shield, thats obviusly standard use of hardlight
alpine pawn
symmetra is using hardlight to create new things which is different is more complex
keen summit
Lemme explain it like this
alpine pawn
yeah but my point is that obviusly theres a difference between an architects hardlight and a standard use
dude i already get iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiity
keen summit
At first you couldnt make say turrets automatically, but now that its known how to make them they could legit make a gun that rapidly creates turrets
Cuz its complex but as soon as its known you can do it again
Vishkar is the leading company cuz they indeed showed the upper limits of it really with architects using it for whole cities
alpine pawn
yeah but what makes symmetra ahead of everyone is that she can create and apply on the run
keen summit
Thats why im hyped for sanjay
keen summit
yeah but what makes symmetra ahead of everyone is that she can create and apply ...
Never said thats false
alpine pawn
aigh
keen summit
Sym is easily in top 5 strongest heroes in lore
alpine pawn
then theres no disagreement point
i do hope sanjays a support i would love a vishkar support
keen summit
Yea
alpine pawn
hopefully he doesnt end like old symm xd
keen summit
Ive advocated for him as support a whole lot
Sanjay lore could be that hes in the weapon department of vishkar basically and thats why he works with talon cuz that could allow testing + be great foil to sym who wants to use it to make a new better world
keen summit
hopefully he doesnt end like old symm xd
There still are lines for shield gen + brig ult is getting reworked
So ult could easily be shield gen
alpine pawn
i think they can just make vishkar its own anti-hero faction with some nuance
keen summit
i think they can just make vishkar its own anti-hero faction with some nuance
It already is
But why would vishkar work with talon
Thats the thing
New developments is my answer
If they want conflict where beyter to test
In talon council you have doom, leader, the visionary
Moira, science and expiriments
Maximilian, money
Reaper, overwatch agent hunting
But what does sanjay have that we miss? Connections? Development? Weapons?
alpine pawn
well vishkar is important but apart from that he has acces to hardlight architects and doom seems to care a lot about talent
i think he even made offers to efi
besides a world cannot evolve if it remains broken
alpine pawn
i think shes close to my area of the spectrum
and yeah she defo wouldnt see the logic in talons ideology
feral folio
can somebody give me summery of bob lore?
alpine pawn
he was ashes butler, basically raised her cause absent rich parents
merry mason
Where is Annecy, france? does it have some historical importance i should know about?
ivory garnet
eastern side of france, not that i know of
vocal marsh
It was of strategical importance between Geneva and Italy
acoustic marsh
Is ramattra a omnic?
peak escarp
yes
worthy rose
Is Tokki a boy or girl?
peak escarp
it's a mech
ivory garnet
Tokki is D.VA’s mech
dont know if D.VA classifies her mech as a different species, so we dont know if its a boy or girl
ivory garnet
i was aiming it towards how car geeks usually gender their cars girls or boys,
maybe she did the same for her mech, but it hasnt been stated
solemn jay
Widow definetly was the dom in her relationship w her husband
stable oasis
dont know if D.VA classifies her mech as a different species, so we dont know if...
Tokki is a mech
a robot
rare trail
Dvas mech is like a less permanent genji body
ivory garnet
Tokki is a mech
i said that
forest plume
Was it ever explained how Doomfist got his gauntlet?
gray ermine
Wasn't it passed down through doomfists
ivory garnet
i believe so
karmic dagger
What's with these lore about hanzo wielding a sword? Anyone know about this? 😮
He said he used to handle a sword and more better than genji
Wow
karmic dagger
he switched to a bow once he killed Genji
OHHH okok. ty for this
Now i know why genji is an "android"
ivory garnet
cyborg
karmic dagger
so basically hanzo is more better than genji then. Canon-wise
ivory garnet
Hanzo would most likely beat Genji in a swordfight, no cybernetics
karmic dagger
Hanzo would most likely beat Genji in a swordfight, no cybernetics
any reason why hanzo switch to bow?
ivory garnet
pretty sure he abandoned the way of the sword
as it reminded him of the assassination of his brother
might be wrong though
karmic dagger
as it reminded him of the assassination of his brother
this make sense tbh. i see..... ty
ok this is kinda intriguing
need to search deeper between genji / hanzo. sad that genji got more lore than hanzo 😔
vagrant kindle
what is the lore behind sigma having his feet out, is there a reason
worn island
What use would he have for shoes?
signal ore
sigma is smart enough 2 no dat his feet r profitable….!
remote sierra
Was it ever explained how Doomfist got his gauntlet?
Fuzzy on the details, but it’s something like his parents were the owners/inventors of the worlds most advanced prosthetic company. Doom fist was a soldier at the time and didn’t go by the name doom fist. He lost his arm in war, and his parents put the most advance prostethic they’ve ever made on him. Then he started going by the name doomfist. I can find the video where the voice actor explains the background.
maiden granite
feet?
uneven isle
Doomfist is a mantle, so he killed his master first and then took his name as doomfist along with his gauntlet
remote sierra
Found the video where the VO talks about his backstory. Here' it is (URL should be bookmarked):
peak escarp
Fuzzy on the details, but it’s something like his parents were the owners/invent...
Doomfist's prosthetic arm isn't the Doomfist gauntlet
he got that by killing the previous Doomfist, who was his mentor
remote sierra
ahh i see, thanks for the clarification 👍🏽 @peak escarp
ivory garnet
he is meant to be a supporting character
vital horizon
hoping he’s featured more in the campaign
knotty vector
bit of question on talon, what talons ideology inspiration came from?
I know overwatch was based on UN but what on talon?
vocal marsh
Terrorism
rare trail
bit of question on talon, what talons ideology inspiration came from?
probably the villians of ww2
knotty vector
reason i asked because i thought talon was more then terrorism
rare trail
wef?
knotty vector
world economic forum as rumored
vocal marsh
That’s more so Null Sector isn’t it
rare trail
nah
knotty vector
i must be too many rumors of conspiracy theorists but lucky for me i dont side with those nonsence
rare trail
null sector just wants a place on earth and is willing to fight for it
knotty vector
Null sector wanted revenge against humans for miss treatment afaik
rare trail
not really
they just kinda want a place for themselves
they dont support eugenis
eugenics
rare trail
not really
vocal marsh
He was wronged by humanity so he wants to wipe them from the earth
rare trail
no
he doesnt hate all humans
hes working with talon which has a lot of humans in it
vocal marsh
He wants equality
He sees wiping humanity as a way to reach said equality
He doesn’t hate them because they are humans
rare trail
he wants a better life for his people and is willing to use force to get that outcome
vocal marsh
But because they are part of a group that mistreated his kind
rare trail
if a human was interested in sharing their world then he would be cool w/them
rare trail
But because they are part of a group that mistreated his kind
but he doesnt hate humans as a whole
hes fine with doomfist
vocal marsh
That’s what I said
rare trail
like ram is fine with humans who dont hate omnics
maiden granite
so sombra works for talon right
uneven isle
Yes
carmine bronze
Damn, so I used to play overwatch all the time when I was younger lmao and now I'm getting back into it. Does anyone know any videos that could catch me up on the lore?
uneven isle
The pinned messages in this channel cover the lore well
ivory garnet
carmine bronze
probably too young, but i was lucky in the sense that i never encountered anyone too toxic and i always had fun
carmine bronze
https://youtu.be/-aPY1OaEPjs
tysm
vapid tusk
Who is more confusing: Zen or Sigma?
ivory garnet
neither are confusing
maiden dagger
Ramatra is in the right and nobody can tell me otherwise
ivory garnet
committing mass genocide to have a racial bias?
committing mass genocide due to racism?
racism isnt good
but neither is wiping out humanity
and being a terrorist
peak escarp
Mondatta wasn't right either
ivory garnet
not heavy on Mondatta, what did he do
peak escarp
they should be fighting for their rights - but politically, not through warfare
Mondatta advocated for total peace, zero conflict
peak escarp
protests and political action take time, but they do work
just look at the women's suffrage and civil rights movements
ivory garnet
yeah, but ig omnics werent there at that time, and maybe didnt study on past movements
so they thought of their own ways to get equal rights for omnics
maiden dagger
but neither is wiping out humanity
ay humanity had its time
they made robots and gave them sentience. Only to abuse them and treat them like less
if it was reversed you'd be rooting for the humans
peak escarp
there's definitely some parallels with various rights movements
maiden dagger
Ramatra did try peace with humans and they denied it
What else was there to do other than to massacre those who destroyed and vandalized your people
peak escarp
he must not have tried very hard
maiden dagger
or you just havent seen his suffering
ivory garnet
if it was reversed you'd be rooting for the humans
i mean yeah, no one thats sane likes racism
but that doesnt mean humanity should be wiped
not all humans are racist to the omnics
majority arent I believe
Ramattra is going about it the wrong way
starting a terrorist party and causing war isnt how you get equality
leaden reef
Suffer as I have in general is not how you build a sustainable society lmao
peak escarp
an eye for an eye makes the world blind
iron plume
There's place for violence in struggles for liberation
But not to the extent, or of the type, that Ramattra advocates
maiden dagger
Suffer as I have in general is not how you build a sustainable society lmao
ay you watch your friends and family get killed by the people that you tried to be kind to only because you are made of something else
those bots arent replaceable. to replace them would mean an entire different memory
peak escarp
his motivations are understandable and justified
maiden dagger
yes
peak escarp
his methods are not
maiden dagger
that means humanity is evil
put in the same situation we would either be killed like his friends, or build an rebellion
peak escarp
both sides are wrong
maiden dagger
that means his methods are justified
glossy burrow
Anyone want to talk and create a ow character concept
peak escarp
starting a war is never justified
maiden dagger
He tried one way, other bots have tried the same way and they are killed
leaden reef
ay you watch your friends and family get killed by the people that you tried to...
L + mondatta better
maiden dagger
starting a war is never justified
war over slaves isnt justified then
peak escarp
it isn't
iron plume
Starting a war can absolutely be justified
maiden dagger
right
maiden dagger
But Ramattra's plan isn't just a war, it's elimination
Dracula from castlevania was justified
Ramatra is justified as well
peace was an option
it was denied
maiden dagger
Anyone want to talk and create a ow character concept
Sure
peak escarp
Ramattra could fight for omnic rights without trying to exterminate all humans
maiden dagger
I'm talking about *not being genocidal*
sometimes a genocide is necessary
Thanos wasnt wrong
iron plume
...
maiden dagger
Ramattra could fight for omnic rights without trying to exterminate all humans
anytime bots spoke out they were culled
iron plume
No it fucking isn't
and yes Thanos fucking was
Even aside from the moral considerations, Thanos's plan was utterly ridiculous
peak escarp
anytime bots spoke out they were culled
there have been peaceful protests and rallies for omnic rights
we saw one in Alive
maiden dagger
there have been peaceful protests and rallies for omnic rights
hover your mouse over my profile and watch the gif
maiden dagger
He literally watched his brothers get killed and not fight back
and watched humanity cheer
iron plume
and watched humanity cheer
His motivations are understandable
it doesn't make him right
maiden dagger
and so are his actions. His actions are justified but i agree it isnt right to kill an entire species
maiden dagger
his actions are still justified
if he stayed a politician he wouldve most likely been assassinated like the others
iron plume
bruh
maiden dagger
so you tell me what he was supposed to do
iron plume
Have you actually read anything of what I said or are you just replying to things you imagine I did
maiden dagger
Ive read what you said
maiden dagger
also if he truly wants to wipe out humanity then why does he ally with doomfist
iron plume
because doomfist wants to start the war too
The difference is doomfist wants humanity to win
while ramattra wants the omnics to
but that can be sorted after it starts
maiden dagger
he was a monk
the optnic that widowmaker assassinated was a politician for his people
maiden dagger
that was speaking for his people and trying to gather support to his side
sounds like a politician
peak escarp
Mondatta was the equivalent of the Dalai Lama (minus being the head of state for Tibet)
iron plume
That's what spiritual leaders often do
maiden dagger
Ok a non corrupt politician akaa spiritual leader
iron plume
...
It has nothing to do with being corrupt or not
Spiritual leaders and politicians literally do different things
maiden dagger
Ok not a politican then but the point still stands that if he took up that role then he would just be assassinated to
iron plume
Maybe, maybe not
Still seem to skip over the point that I never suggested he should have
maiden dagger
right but you said he went about it in the wrong way
if not genocide and if not the path of a spiritual leader then what path could he have taken
iron plume
...
ivory garnet
ramattra’s goal is justifiable, to get equal rights for omnics, but genocide isnt the way to do it
maiden dagger
sometimes it is
iron plume
He doesn't want equal rights
he wants supremacy
maiden dagger
Kill all the racists and problem solved
iron plume
No
no, genocide is never "the way" to fucking do it
peak escarp
you make it sound like the only possible way to achieve omnic rights is genocide
maiden dagger
considering there will always be people to hate Omnics yeah
iron plume
and?
ivory garnet
ramattra could very well get his goal with other means, not becoming a terrorist party and starting a war
maiden dagger
and what?
ivory garnet
considering there will always be people to hate Omnics yeah
there will always be conflict
peak escarp
there will always be people who believe women/minorities shouldn't have rights
iron plume
The point of anti-racist resistance is not to kill all racists
it's to make sure they don't have power
maiden dagger
humans couldve disagreed without massacring his people before his eyes and cheering about it
peak escarp
does that mean they should commit genocide?
iron plume
Because the former is impossible
maiden dagger
The point of anti-racist resistance is not to kill all racists
it's to make sure...
everyone has the power to take a life 
iron plume
You know how you talked about "if the species were swapped"
You're literally doing that same thing
cheering for human-hating omnics
and fucking genocide
maiden dagger
what did the omnics do before humans killed and mistreated them?
ivory garnet
the world will always have different ideologies and philosophies that go against another. there will never be a way to have peace on earth.
ivory garnet
what did the omnics do before humans killed and mistreated them?
turn against them
iron plume
☝️
maiden dagger
Nah humans did that first
iron plume
Some omnics were probably mistreated back when they were servants too
peak escarp
a little thing called the Omnic Crisis
iron plume
but that's not why the Crisis happened
coincidentally this is also why omnics work very poorly as a racism analogy
maiden dagger
if they didnt want robots to revolt then why give them sentience
ivory garnet
aurora did right?
peak escarp
nobody really knows how/why
Aurora was the first
she spread it to the other omnics
ivory garnet
theres no way to eradicate all racists on earth as there would be too long and too wide of a search as they could very well just lie, which is why ramattra would and could kill innocent civilians who have done nothing to harm omnics
Ramattra’s way of doing it will never be justified
iron plume
Ramattra doesn't give a shit about killing innocent civilians in the first place
ivory garnet
yeah
which is why its unjust
innocent lives should never be taken through acts of violence
I feel as if Ramattra tried harder with his pacifist approach, he wouldve and couldve achieved equality if he wanted to
iron plume
there's arguments you could make with collateral damage
ivory garnet
as theres many in the world who live with omnics as equals
iron plume
but not straight up murdering whoever you come across
peak escarp
he's really just fulfilling the purpose he was made for
he was built to lead omnics in war
iron plume
I feel as if Ramattra tried harder with his pacifist approach, he wouldve and co...
It doesn't have to be pacifist even
as I said there is place for violence
just not whatever he's doing
Violently stop people who attack omnics
Disrupt systems of oppression
smash the state etc etc
ivory garnet
agreed
also, does Talon continually attack places? or only carry out certain missions?
iron plume
they have specific operations
ivory garnet
okay, thank you
leaden reef
Follow up question what does talon want
iron plume
"Talon" doesn't really want anything as a group because they're a loose assembly of people with vaguely aligned personal interests
Doomfist is the one currently setting the course and he wants to start a war between humans and omnics because he believes it'll make humans better
Reaper believes it's a way to get justice on those who wronged him
Moira wants to experiment free of ethical concerns
Maximillien is probably in it for the money
Sanjay likely sees a way for Vishkar or himself to benefit from Talon activity
Those are the ones on the council
Sombra uses them for resources to do her own thing
Widow is... well, Widow
maiden granite
does widow even have any personal beliefs about talon and what they do
maiden granite
does sombra fully believe in talons goal?
you're the resident overwatch lore encyclopedia widow main
ivory garnet
sombra doesnt have ideals on the council’s individual goals
as Magician said, she is in Talon for more resources, and her getting those resources help everyone else out
candid crane
Why isn't Gengi caked up in game, like he is in the comics?
maiden granite
🤨
candid crane
Is bastion a robot?
bronze tapir
no
fierce furnace
Is bastion a robot?
💀💀
limpid agate
Even if its a bad question, please don't reply with incorrect answers or memes...
limpid agate
Is bastion a robot?
Yes, he is.
Bastion is an omnic.
Omnics are a brand of robot.
north walrus
is bastion liek a friend of torb or whatever
ive seen that torb and brig r usually nice 2 bastion
peak escarp
Torbjorn basically adopted Bastion in the comic "Binary"
tight sonnet
so... is zarya racist to omnics??
twin hull
Australia is very racist to omnics
rare trail
yeah
past copper
If you wanna see racism towards omnics, look towards Russia
Tho, kinda tough to blame them considering they’re warring against them
slate storm
Ramatra is Malcom x
past copper
No. He’s not. I don’t think Malcom promoted genocide
limpid agate
Neither does Rammatra
slate storm
We’ll see about that buckaroo
past copper
Ramattra is literally invading cities trying to kill humans while apparently taking Omnics by force
The definition of genocide is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
limpid agate
You got the first part wrong
Ramattra's goal is not
Kill humans and take Omnics by force
That is not what he is trying to do
past copper
Well it’s not like he’s sending killing machines hoping JUST to scare humans away
limpid agate
Have you read the short story
past copper
Yes I have
But if you invade cities with killing machines, what else is gonna happen to people caught up in that?
limpid agate
Thats like saying every war ever is genocide
Or every invasion
Or every event where one must kill humans to achieve their goal
past copper
I think you have the meaning of genocide mixed up with extinction
limpid agate
No, Im not
War is not a necessary precondition for genocide, and genocide does not necessarily occur during war
past copper
If large numbers of people are deliberately being killed in these invasions, then it falls under genocide
If not genocide, what is it then?
limpid agate
War
Generally in a war, you deliberately kill the opposition and destroy their infrastructure
Generally in a war, collateral damage happens
The goal isnt kill all the meatbags in this city
If the goal was genocide, they wouldnt have taken prisoners and hostages in the London Uprising.
That wasnt the goal
Ramattra rather explicitly spells out the goal of that invasion in the short story
The global invasion is the same on a larger scale
past copper
Ram‘s goal has changed after that tho. He’s now walking down a darker path and it’s very doubtful he intends to take any prisoners in these invasions
limpid agate
And its still not genocide
past copper
This is kinda evidenced by Zero Hour
limpid agate
No it isnt
past copper
He was definitely going to let his soldiers off the officer and little girl and probably capture the news reporter omnic
limpid agate
Ramattra wants the omnic. The police officer is stopping that goal, and also shooting back. The little girl is collateral
The titan doesnt come out until Overwatch starts to interfere and wipes out a massive amount of the army
At that point, there is a bigger problem
past copper
I’m just saying, you honestly think Ramattra would stop at just capturing omincs a killing a few humans in his war?
limpid agate
No, he also wants a stronghold
past copper
I doubt it. Given his goal for all omnics, I’m telling you, it would turn into an Ultron situation
limpid agate
No it wouldnt
His goal is not genocide.
And now you are the one bringing up extinction
past copper
I mean it probably would. Even if he succeeds in his goal, his actions will have repercussions towards omnics
Whatever would happen then is anyone’s guess really
But whatever. It’s not like it’ll matter unless the Story Mode brings up what’s happening in the invasions
ivory garnet
Neither does Rammatra
Ramattra doesnt care if he has to kill innocent lives to attain omnic supremacy/equal rights
him killing a large group would count as Genocide, otherwise he is starting a war, which is what he is doing. However he is committing mass homicide and an act of war against the world
thats the main reason why his ways of attaining his goal is unjust. Him not caring about innocent lives being lost aslong as he gets what he wants
limpid agate
Thats... Not accurate.
Ramattra doesnt care if he has to kill innocent lives to attain omnic supremacy/equal rights
But he isnt intentionally killing a large group of humans
For the sake of killing them
He is killing opposition in war and doesnt care about collateral damage
And thats also not the reason why people see him as unjust
Its because he is attacking high population density areas instead of military bases that is common in most wars, and his forced capturing of his own people.
Population dense areas have a higher risk of collateral damage
He doesnt care about that.
Dont confuse collateral damage with genocide.
ivory garnet
i didnt confused collateral damage with genocide, i said it was mass homicide
it doesnt matter if its collateral either
a death is a death
limpid agate
Death is death
If a truck driver drives off the highway and rolls into a group of 50 people that isnt genocide.
But it is death
Dont confuse one kind of death for another.
Manslaughter is homicide too, so thats still mass homicide
past copper
Does it matter at this point? The world is gonna call it as it is no matter how it ends. Homicide. Genocide. Collateral. Hell, even war crime
In the eyes of those watching this war unfold, this is how they will view Null Sector
Ramattra doesn’t care how they see him or his actions
To him, his goal is a righteous cause. After all, humanity put down his kind to survive. So why can’t he do the same?
worthy rose
how do i get the ...Punch spray for doomfist? is it unobtainable now?
past copper
how do i get the ...Punch spray for doomfist? is it unobtainable now?
Wrong place to ask buddy
limpid agate
Does it matter at this point? The world is gonna call it as it is no matter how ...
Okay.
So did we genocide in Uprising
Did we genocide in Retribution
We were definitely invaders in both of those
past copper
Did a large number people die in either of those
limpid agate
Yes
past copper
And what is the definition of genocide?
limpid agate
Not what you think it is
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
Whats the common link here
the deliberate killing
the intentional destruction
intent to destroy
past copper
Both of those resulted in large number of people dying. The only difference being one was a small area and the other was a city
So only Uprising would count
limpid agate
What
That logic doesnt make sense
Both were cities
Every map in the game is a small area of a larger city
past copper
Yes. But as we see in Uprising, it was ALL of King’s Row under attack
Not just the map
limpid agate
King's Row is a part of London
Okay, so we genocided Null Sector in King's Row
Got it
You dont know what genocide means
past copper
In Blackwatch’s mission though, it was more or less in a contained in small portion of the city. Not the ENTIRE city
No. Null Sector committed genocide against humanity
past copper
You think bc Overwatch went into the city to save hostages from Null Sector, it counts as genocide against them
But that’s not the case
limpid agate
No I dont
I dont think Null Sector was genocide either
But that wasnt what I asked
limpid agate
Did a large number people die in either of those
Yes, a large number of people were killed by Overwatch
In Uprising
And in Retribution
past copper
Who did Overwatch kill in Uprising tho? The mindless drones Ram thought would actually work as an army?
Only one person was killed and that was Ram’s friend who led the attack
Don’t know if Overwatch killed her not, but still
limpid agate
Uh huh.
Doesnt change that death is death
And Retribution is still a much worse example
I dont understand your sense of scale
We have had real world genocides on a smaller scale than Retribution
soft jay
past copper
Retribution was an example of a few of things actually
The biggest being how the justice system is corrupted, but let’s not unpack that right now
limpid agate
Its still about as much of a genocide as Ramattra invading London
Which is to say
Its not genocide.
past copper
Ok. Let’s look into this. Just how many cities do you think Null Sector is invading?
Say… at least 10 for now
limpid agate
The original omnic crisis was genocide.
This isnt
And its not about scale
Ramattra could be invading 50 cities for all I care
And the Omnic Crisis could have been devoted to exclusively one
Junkers genocided omnics.
And that's one town
past copper
It’s an unprovoked attack. On populated cities. Against humanity
limpid agate
One small town
Unprovoked attack != Genocide
Populated cities != Genocide
Against race is not necessarily Genocide
It is part of the definition
It is not the whole definition
For example
Manslaughter != Murder
Manslaughter is still homicide
But its not murder
Null Sector's invasion is not genocide
It is against a specific people, but its not genocide.
You cant look at 1 part of a definition and ignore the greater part of it
If that's what you are doing, then Echo and Snowball are omnics
Because they are sentient robots
If that is your argument, then Orisa is a terrorist because she intentionally destroyed infrastructure.
past copper
You’re putting words in my mouth and going through so much unnecessary effort to try and dismiss Ram’s actions as genocide
limpid agate
No
Im not dismissing Ram's actions as genocide
You are.
Because you either dont understand his actions
Or you dont know what genocide is
past copper
I understand his actions, he wants to create a better world for omnics, BUT he’s basically committing what is essentially genocide to do it
What don’t you get about that
limpid agate
From what we have seen and heard
He isnt
He isnt trying to cleanse humanity
He isnt executing people or killing a race to reduce its numbers
He isnt starting a war to kill humans
He isnt even actively trying to just kill humans
Your one example of genocide was an awful example
He isnt even looking to completely dominate humanity either
You want to look at genocide, look at Colonization era Australia. Look at 20th century Africa. Look at present day Myanmar.
Look at the ethnic cleansing of the Bosnian war in the 90s. Look at the Tatars under Stalin. Look at half the shit the Ottoman empire did in the years leading up to the fall of that empire
And Im not even going to dare mention the obvious example from the 1940s that needs no further introduction.
In universe for Overwatch, we have Junkers genocide of the Omnics.
We have the original Omnic Crisis
past copper
I’m actually a little surprised the conflict between Russia and Ukraine isn’t on your list
limpid agate
Because thats not genocide.
You dont know what genocide is
Here is some news for you, every single war in history has:
- Collateral damage of innocents
- Is waged against two opposing groups
- Has people dying
Or more specifically
Being killed of the opposing group
Whether its ethnic, national, racial, religious
Doesnt matter
You dont know what genocide is
past copper
I think it’s more safe to say you don’t know what genocide is
And for the record, Russian actions against Ukraine are not even collateral. They’re ALL completely intentional
limpid agate
Im not going to get into talks about present day shit, with the one exception of the Myanmar genocide since that's been going on for the past 8 years.
The Japanese conquest of Manchuria and Nanjing are closer to genocide than Ramattra. And those are not generally considered to be genocide.
And I havent even touched on anything in the Americas.
I havent even touched on anything in the entire western hemisphere
Ive given off a fountain of examples, Ive explained what genocide is in multiple different ways and how it does not apply to Ramattra's current conquest.
Genocide is a very specific word.
You are using the word too broadly
Thats not genocide. Thats just every conflict in human history against two opposing groups.
!!shitposting
twilit nacelleBOT
Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
heady cloak
I really think the lore between reinhardt and ana is really bipolar bc when rein goes in for the backshots ana actualy has scolios and rein breaks her back quite litteraly(no pun intended) and apparently ana actually got throat cancer from that big rein cock
past copper
!!shitposting
twilit nacelleBOT
Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
past copper
I really think the lore between reinhardt and ana is really bipolar bc when rein...
!!shitposting
twilit nacelleBOT
Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
ivory garnet
Right now Null Sector is acting on homicide through collateral damage, unless Ramattra sets his sights on kill all humans, then it could start being named as genocide
worthy rose
Can someone give me a summary on what the lore is for the game currently?
limpid agate
past copper
Right now Null Sector is acting on homicide through collateral damage, unless Ra...
It may depend on where Ramattra’s and Doomfist’s goals meet, but sure. That’s an acceptable answer
limpid agate
Here
ivory garnet
Yeah, it does contradicting their alliance
as Doom wants humanity to evolve into the stronger beings living
or whatever
but thats how it would turn into genocide
past copper
Honestly, I’m not sure what Doom wants. We know he wants the strongest of humanity to rise up, but what does he get outta that?
Does he plan to lead them or something
ivory garnet
thats something to find out in the future I believe
Blizzard has tons of room to work with
past copper
Hell, Ram just dropped and his goal is obvious, but Doomfist’s goal is an odd one
But I do wonder, if he wants the strongest of humanity to rise up, does that future include omnics like Ramattra? Curious
past copper
Depends. Because Doom wants the strongest to survive and the weak to die
limpid agate
Thats not exactly accurate either...
past copper
In any case, while I’m sure the two worked together to achieve their goals
One way or another, their goals just might contradict each other’s
I kinda wanna see how that goes
Cards on the table, betting Doomfist is the one to betray Ramattra
ivory garnet
Doom did only say the human race
when talking about his goal
so thats maybe why Ramattra and Doom would work so well together
Doomfist would be the one to betray one another
Talon is a manipulative group
but he probably sees Null Sector as a way to make humanity strongee
stronger
past copper
Kinda wonder if Doomfist wants humanity to become stronger to start his own war against omnics
But I’d feel that’s probably a stretch
past copper
Just putting this out there, we don’t actually know what Doomfist’s views towards omnics is
Sure he’s willing to work with Ramattra, but does he share his views towards omnics?
Because you’d think after they cost him his dreams during the Crisis, he’d hold a hell of a grudge against them like most people
keen summit
He doesnt seen to have string feelings to omnics in any way
Its like he doesnt hate them nor does he like them
shadow marsh
Has anyone seen the new pve leaks?
ivory garnet
wouldnt say leaks as alot of PvE has been shown
missions, how it will work
new abilities
(or old abilities)
keen summit
Has anyone seen the new pve leaks?
Which "leaks"
Blizz is honestly usually pretty gpod ay hiding stuff
Cuz even the french content creator got it wrong, with saying mauga would be the tank, but probs the devs said "pre established character"
Only big ones have been kiriko short and jq kit
So of you can show these "leaks"
shadow marsh
My bad, Don't know if it's technically called a leak or not because there's some clips of the pve gameplay already
Just watch this
shadow marsh
That's why I said my bad.
maiden granite
what will pve entail?
shadow marsh
Just wondering how come no one's discussing it here. Oh well, to be fair those are just only clips, every discussion will just be speculations
keen summit
what will pve entail?
Campaign and hero missions basically
shadow marsh
I'm just intrigued by the new maps and Toronto
keen summit
Blizz isbt very clear often
ivory garnet
what will pve entail?
most liekly the story missions will be based on Null Sector
keen summit
Centipede i reacted like this btw cuz there also a bit back were "leaks" that were fake as hell
keen summit
most liekly the story missions will be based on Null Sector
Null and talon
ivory garnet
I'm just intrigued by the new maps and Toronto
there wont be any new maps from what ive seen, just old maps and new parts of an existing map
keen summit
there wont be any new maps from what ive seen, just old maps and new parts of an...
India
shadow marsh
What worries me is how the monetization will be played here, and how most of the players can be easily disappointed
keen summit
Thats pve made indua
shadow marsh
PvE is mainly for lore which will bring this channel more lively, eventually
keen summit
What worries me is how the monetization will be played here, and how most of the...
Pve isnt interssting to non lore enthousiast or pvp players
shadow marsh
Exactly
shadow marsh
I doubt PvE would ultimately prevail but oh well I'm a person easy to be pleased
ivory garnet
if their PvE doesnt succeed, which i doubt it wont, then blizz would lose alot of money
keen summit
Like from the clips we saw we see sojourn in toronto with overwatch, widiw in india, overwatch helping lucio in rio
Those arent like, "we can understand the story" things
ivory garnet
the Lucio one might branch into Lucio joining overwatch
maiden granite
is it possible for one of the heroes to die in the lore?
keen summit
We can use context and character motives to forge a logical story
keen summit
is it possible for one of the heroes to die in the lore?
Yes its neber said it isnt but its unlikely
shadow marsh
is it possible for one of the heroes to die in the lore?
That would cause an outrage amongst players so no
keen summit
For the type of story it has
shadow marsh
Every playable hero won't die
keen summit
That would cause an outrage amongst players so no
Nah its more that the type of story overwatch is
Its about hope etc
ivory garnet
its not likely anyone would die though
ivory garnet
if it is, the story or a character would be based around it
ivory garnet
if Ana died, Cassidy, Pharah, and Soldier would be affected
keen summit
Basically efi characters are important characters to other's lore
Like how efi is important to orisa
ivory garnet
and I chose soldier since they are really good friends
keen summit
and Pharah’s
Yes, but efi like characters are those who arent playable but are important
ivory garnet
yeah i can get that
shadow marsh
It's cool that Orisa is the side character of her own story
keen summit
So say maximillian to talon
ivory garnet
her maker is
shadow marsh
Was it mentioned here that Orisa's personality is based off to Efi's aunt?
ivory garnet
Efi is the supporting character of Orisa’s story
keen summit
It's cool that Orisa is the side character of her own story
Irs more like orisa is side character of efi but then orisa becomes the character of her own
keen summit
Efi is the supporting character of Orisa’s story
In the novel orisa is quite literally a side character
ivory garnet
yeah, but Efi is seen as a supporting character now
indigo glade
are there any heroes to be expected to come into the game from lore?
ivory garnet
Mauga
keen summit
Sanjay
indigo glade
who's Sanjay?
ivory garnet
Talon operative
keen summit
Vishkar employee and talon council member
ivory garnet
uses hardlight i think
indigo glade
I know I saw some Mauga talk but this is the first time I'm hearing bout Sanjay
huh
keen summit
No hes way more than an operative
ivory garnet
it would just be another symm
shadow marsh
I heard that Mauga had to be put down
keen summit
Hes on the council with doom, moira, reaper and maximillian
ivory garnet
they have his coding and stuff
shadow marsh
A guy who was easily angered
ivory garnet
Mauga is still alive
indigo glade
Maximilian is the gentleman omnic right?
keen summit
I heard that Mauga had to be put down
Ehhh its odd he was meant to be sigma but sigmas kit didnt fit mauga
keen summit
Maximilian is the gentleman omnic right?
Yep
shadow marsh
My bet' is on to Sanjay more
ivory garnet
dont see how they’d implement him
shadow marsh
The problem is they'll just reuse the old Symmetra kit
ivory garnet
it’d be a repeat of symm
indigo glade
you think he could eventually come into the game?
keen summit
it would just be another symm
No? Are zen and rama the same?
ivory garnet
yeah
ivory garnet
No? Are zen and rama the same?
no
shadow marsh
Literally just Symmetra number 2
ivory garnet
entirely 2 different omnics
keen summit
it’d be a repeat of symm
Di you not know how open hardlight is?
ivory garnet
knowing blizzard it’d be hard for them to come up with something that isnt similar to symm
keen summit
entirely 2 different omnics
Yes and sanjay is a different person with different views, you can di alot with hardlight
ivory garnet
only thing possible is I see Sanjay shooting hardlight
and being a mid ranged dos
dps
or maybe support
like old symm
shadow marsh
Not another DPS please
keen summit
only thing possible is I see Sanjay shooting hardlight
Ill give you an example, imagine if sanjay leads the weapon r&d of hardlight and creates weapons with hardlight, of can use shields etc + shield gen lines are still in game and brig ult is getting reworked
keen summit
Not another DPS please
He'd fit support or tank better ngl but i'd prefer support cyz we dont have a support based on temporary shields for example
ivory garnet
a ton of lines are still in the game from ow1 but none are shown in game
keen summit
a ton of lines are still in the game from ow1 but none are shown in game
Thing is, jq has lines for shield gen
Kiriko too
keen summit
Kiriko and the new heroes also have “Im on fire” lines
They do say that.
Ibe had them say it
Alor
ivory garnet
yes, thats what I said
ivory garnet
they have the lines, but it isn’t implemented in the game
ivory garnet
theres no animation like how there was in ow1
thats what im saying
its not implemented
keen summit
Yes? But thing is thats way different
ivory garnet
into the game
keen summit
Compared to a whole ability having lines
That doesnt exist
Hardlight is insanely versatile
And sanjay honestly is q hero that would make alot of sense, could be a foil for sym, is in the higherups within talon
ivory garnet
or you could have Mauga, a foil for Baptiste, who is also in Talon, and a much more wanted hero
keen summit
++ esperanca has hints to new hero was saod and we have a glass company that basically is just like hardlight, could also just be a branch of vishkar
keen summit
or you could have Mauga, a foil for Baptiste, who is also in Talon, and a much m...
I mean hes also indeed likely but im looking at next hero whos likely
Next ome is support
ivory garnet
yeah i forgot abt how tbey’re doin it
ivory garnet
we wont be getting a dps for a while though
maiden granite
does dva appear in any comics?
keen summit
My personal theory is 2 supp 2 tank in total so we now have rama so now its 1 tank 2 supp
keen summit
does dva appear in any comics?
Yes in the new overwatch comics
Forgot the name
But its 5 part series
Im just happy rama is well written cuz after we git kiriko who is the worst written in ow i was scared
maiden granite
i hear kirikos writing was awful
keen summit
Yes
It is
It is absolutely the worst in the game
Dva at first too but she got developed
At first she was just "gamer girl in mech cuz shes thst good at gaming so now shes military of gamers"
maiden granite
i always found it weird that being a pro gamer could train you to use real mecks
limpid agate
Also, one thing worth mentioning is
She is Korean
Theyhave conscription in Korea
Literally every single pro player you see in OWL that is Korean
Either served in the military, or will serve in the military
Or in the case of some former pros, are currently serving in the military
If you think D.Va being a pro gamer and a pilot is odd
It really isnt
ivory garnet
She was literally world champion in mech sim lol
idk how her being really good at aerial combat in a mech, suited to her best features and design, would be odd
obsidian bay
Torb
keen summit
Itd not odd no, its just that she was badly written in game (still has second worst lines imho in game)
Like its sad that the responsible part of dva is barely shown in-game
All her lines in-game are just gamer girl stuff but atleast her lore has some depth
maiden granite
her in-game lines do paint her as just a generic gamer girl, which is unfortunate
keen summit
Yea
Kiriko is still worst written cuz shes generic in lore and with her lines
Kiriko is legit like shonen protag in everything
Missing dad, secret powers from suoernatural spirits, fighting in secret for her town with a group of people against evil org
maiden granite
Sounds pretty cliche
keen summit
She was trained by her mom with the previous org and those other two are typical honorbound samurai and a fun loving cyber ninja
The worst part bout kiriko isnt that all
Its that they dodnt do shit with her, no development for shimadas, no showing how it really was, no third opinion
Kiriko doesnt say anything bout yhe incident
Shes not mad at hanzo for indirectly causing the hashimotos taking control etc
She doesnt mention anything
shadow marsh
If you think D.Va being a pro gamer and a pilot is odd
Being a pro gamer is looked down in the west
However here in the east, you're praised
zenith zinc
Wait so what exactly were junkrat and roadhog trying to do to junkertown? what was in their payload? were they exiled?
vital horizon
junkertown payload has bombs attached beneath the heist money
zenith zinc
junkertown payload has bombs attached beneath the heist money
what's the heist money all about?
shadow parcel
what's the heist money all about?
They were going to bring it to j queen then blow it up when she got it so the money was a decoy
Should prob watch hog and junk mini cinematic
zenith zinc
So do they like junker queen or not?
north walrus
i just read binary comic and it made me giggle
vocal marsh
There are a lot of ways for Korean celebrities to get out of conscription
wild jasper
Where can I watch/read the lore?
peak escarp
check the pins
alpine pawn
im still down kang tae-oh was conscripted, second season of woo will take years aaah
wild light
baptiste lore
maiden granite
so does widow still go by her real name?
rare trail
i dont think so
rare trail
how old is widow?
peak escarp
33
maiden granite
i do find widow to be an interesting character
i somewhat feel there could be hope for her
but she probably wont become better tbh
vocal marsh
If Mercy could reverse Moiras surgery there is a small possibility
Honestly kinda weird how out off all the people that can heal only 2 are actually doctors
rare trail
didnt she only volunteer after she was conditioned
limpid agate
No
rare trail
she volunteered to suppress her emotions and work with talon?
limpid agate
Yes
peak escarp
Honestly kinda weird how out off all the people that can heal only 2 are actuall...
and only one of those 2 is a medical doctor
limpid agate
No
rare trail
how many people can actually heal anyway
limpid agate
She wants to kill people in general because it gives her a rush
limpid agate
Soldier 76 and Reaper can passively regenerate.
Mercy, Moira, Baptiste, Ana, and Soldier 76 all use Mercy's biotic tech.
Kirikois magic.
Zen is capable of some form of healing Mercy does not understand
rare trail
wdym passively regenerate
like everyone can "passively regenerate"
reaper and soldier just do it faster
are there any other super soldiers?
limpid agate
None we have met
rare trail
presumably there are at least 76 but who knows how many survived
peak escarp
“Most of them died,” Jack says, staring ruefully into the distance, his brow furrowed. “I made it. But it wasn’t a pleasant journey. Injections, unbelievable pain. I think I had a surgery at one point, when some of my organs were rejecting the changes … I was in and out of a coma for a few weeks. I’m not sure I’ll ever know the full extent of what was done, or what it might do to me over time.”```so like at least 200 people and most died
unless 1% survived then there should be more
glossy burrow
Anyone wanna make overwatch character abilites and stuff like concepts dm meee
limpid agate
Not the right channel
ivory garnet
reaper and soldier just do it faster
Reaper has the enhancement program boosted healing + his constant regeneration and degeneration. Soldier has his enhancement program boost
lapis sage
Dog
merry mason
didnt she only volunteer after she was conditioned
she was conditioned to kill first
peak escarp
Widowmaker
ripe axle
Didn't Rammatra say something about omnics being irreplaceable?
peak escarp
you can't replace a soul
ripe axle
besides that, they have soul
rare trail
he wouldnt be sentient
peak escarp
you could repair them, but they won't be the same person
ripe axle
So a new soul would replace the body?
peak escarp
Orisa is not the same person as the omnic that Doomfist smashed into the wall