lore-discussion

[alpine pawn]

that conflict

atleast is doomfist goal

conflict to make humanity adapt and advance

[drifting viper]

Then why does reaper work for them

[opaque tundra]

Read Code of Violence

[drifting viper]

Does he have the same views

[drifting viper]

Ok

[alpine pawn]

i think reaper just hates the heck out of overwatch

[drifting viper]

I want to see more sigma lore

After watching his short hes one of the most interesting characters in this game

[alpine pawn]

that prob take a while he seems that hell be important so they take him slow

[peak escarp]

Sigma isn't important to the main story

so he's not likely to get featured any time soon

[clear kestrel]

I mean I don't think that's very fair
he's a key member of talon

[peak escarp]

he's a scientist kept in a lab

[limpid agate]

He is not a key member of Talon

[peak escarp]

he's the least important playable member of Talon

[clear kestrel]

I think it's far too early to discount his potential story involvement

that makes no sense

[limpid agate]

Doomfist is the acting leader of Talon.
Reaper and Moira are on the council of leaders of Talon.
Widowmaker and Sombra are incredibly core active field agents of Talon.
Sigma is not an important character

[clear kestrel]

you don't know that for sure

we have no idea what they have planned for him

[peak escarp]

he hasn't been shown as a key member at all

we can't assess a character's importance based on what might happen

[clear kestrel]

right

so stop saying he's NOT going to be important

you don't know if he is or isn't

[peak escarp]

I'm not saying he won't be important

I'm saying he isn't important right now

[clear kestrel]

fine
that's fair

[peak escarp]

and hasn't been important so far in the story

that could change

that could not change

[clear kestrel]

I'd be both very surprised and very disappointed if he never gets any story relevance

especially considering how interesting his character is

[peak escarp]

being interesting doesn't make a character relevant

[clear kestrel]

I'm

not saying that

I'm saying that's why it'd be a shame if he wasn't relevant

his character is interesting, it would be a waste in my eyes

[peak escarp]

in my opinion, the most interesting bit of unexplored lore is Junkrat's secret

and they haven't even touched that

[dreamy epoch]

his WHAT

[clear kestrel]

secret?

[alpine pawn]

the treasure

[peak escarp]

the secret that Junkrat found in the Australian omnium

[alpine pawn]

the one he offered roadhog but we dont know what it is

[peak escarp]

that everyone thinks is some kind of valuable treasure

[alpine pawn]

yeah only him and i think hog know what it is

[clear kestrel]

what's the bet he was just bullshitting about that actually

[iron gorge]

im pretty sure i have a document about the secret

lemme check rq

[peak escarp]

the Sojourn novel revealed huge information that makes it seem even more important to me

[iron gorge]

probably headcanon tho

[clear kestrel]

what
is it like a dormant god program or some shit?

[limpid agate]

no

[peak escarp]

Dr. Liao worked in the Australian omnium

[clear kestrel]

that's not very surprising

[peak escarp]

she was the one who made Aurora

[clear kestrel]

I think it'd be weird if she didn't visit a few omniums back in the day

[peak escarp]

not visit

[limpid agate]

It is surprising

[alpine pawn]

yeah but where insinuated liao is who finally broke the barrier between ai and full sentience no?

[peak escarp]

she was employed there

[clear kestrel]

that's
not very surprising either
she was a key player in the creation of the omnics themselves

[limpid agate]

It is surprising

[clear kestrel]

what makes this one special?

[limpid agate]

Its where Junkrat found his treasure

Is what makes it special

She could have worked at any omnium, including the one closer to her home Singapore in the East China Sea

Instead she worked at the one in Australia where Junkrat found his treasure decades later

[clear kestrel]

and what do we think this treasure is

[limpid agate]

[iron gorge]

so

[clear kestrel]

something like Echo maybe?

[limpid agate]

No

Echo was made decades later

[iron gorge]

theres a map on jq's pirate skins riptire

[peak escarp]

something related to omnic sentience

[clear kestrel]

I know that

I wasn't suggesting it WAS echo

I said something similar

maybe a prototype

[limpid agate]

It wouldnt be

[clear kestrel]

how can you be sure?

[limpid agate]

!!loretweets

[twilit nacelle]

Hero Teasers:
Zarya: https://bit.ly/2LQVQbX
McCree: https://bit.ly/2XgY6Pi
Soldier 1: https://bit.ly/2XdfGUl
Soldier 2: https://bit.ly/2Tr2TMR
Junkers 1: https://bit.ly/36lCrcW
Junkers 2: https://bit.ly/36hFdj5
Ana: https://bit.ly/3cRvRgx
Sombra: https://bit.ly/2LHZIw7
Orisa 1: https://bit.ly/2ANoCbq
Orisa 2: https://bit.ly/2WOJE1S
Brigitte 1: https://bit.ly/3cQok1E
Brigitte 2: https://bit.ly/3bOU1af
Brigitte 3: https://bit.ly/36hPmfH
Echo 1: https://bit.ly/3bR3JbY
Echo 2: https://bit.ly/3e8msl9
Echo 3: https://bit.ly/2zgjM66
Cassidy: https://bit.ly/3KrcFa4

Map Teasers:
Gibraltar: https://bit.ly/2Xix8Xh
Numbani: https://bit.ly/2WN0ZYY
Volskaya: https://bit.ly/2WLQvcq
Hollywood: https://bit.ly/2WNMxzP

Archives Logs:
Retribution Reyes: https://bit.ly/2WNN0lz
Retribution McCree: https://bit.ly/2WP3U3y
Retribution Genji: https://bit.ly/2Triyf5
Retribution Moira: https://bit.ly/2ykYO5F
Storm Rising Sojourn: https://bit.ly/2ToIqbn
Storm Rising Max: https://bit.ly/36fjxUY

[iron gorge]

and the map matches ireland and england

[iron gorge]

and another map leads to the Isle of Mann

[limpid agate]

Also https://web.archive.org/web/20221003054601/https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/echo

The foundation theories for what would later become Echo were only made post-crisis

There was no pre-crisis prototype

She's also made other intelligent projects as well

Such as Athena

And Aurora

It could be a 4th useful project

Or something related to Aurora

[clear kestrel]

well that's
kinda what I meant by "something like Echo"
it's just another animatronic intelligence prject

[iron gorge]

Therefore

[clear kestrel]

prototype was just me spitballing

[peak escarp]

the fact that Dr. Liao (creator of the first omnic to gain sentience) was stationed at the Australian omnium and that Junkrat found a "valuable secret in the bones of the omnium" are 100% connected

[iron gorge]

Junkrats treasure is australium

[peak escarp]

my theory is that Junkrat's secret is the key to creating more omnics - which will make him vital to Ramattra's war (if anyone ever figures it out)

[iron gorge]

perhaps the weird cube in Train Hopper?

explains why talon wants it

[limpid agate]

I doubt it

That was a one off MacGuffin

Then again, they seem to like giving importance to things that were previously explicitly unimportant

Like Anubis

[drifting viper]

Ive read it now

[iron gorge]

try lfg

[drifting viper]

I think reaper wants justice for evil people without being held to the law like he was in overwatch

[limpid agate]

Use the LFG channels

This is not the LFG channel

If you have more questions about LFG channels, go ask someone in #general-discussion

[drifting viper]

Since it says "The only thing that mattered was his need for justice."
But at the same time hes aware hes a terrorist and that his family wouldn't love him after what hes become

[peak escarp]

become a monster to hunt monsters

[iron gorge]

ana has so much fucking lore

i want some lore for lucio too

[drifting viper]

"No longer could he hold himself
above the actions of terrorists."

[limpid agate]

Stop asking for that here.

People told you where to go

[dreamy epoch]

that "No more." is so chilling in his trailer

[drifting viper]

In whos trailer

[limpid agate]

Ramattras

[dreamy epoch]

ram's

[drifting viper]

Yeah

[dreamy epoch]

being converted to a kiriko hater

but I like JQ and sojourn

[limpid agate]

Those two are fine

[iron gorge]

true kiriko is cringe

[limpid agate]

People think Sojourn has no personality, but they would say the same thing about Pharah or Soldier if they released today

[dreamy epoch]

her interaction with orisa is nice

[drifting viper]

Soldier 76 does have a personality

[limpid agate]

Yes

So does Sojourn

[dreamy epoch]

i love the amount of bitterness soldier has

"think you can do my job, eh"

[iron gorge]

sojourn's personality is perfectionism

[dreamy epoch]

I think people wouldn't consider her bland if we got something more than havana for her

i'm actually surprised there are only 3 archives missions when i think about it

like

there is so much MORE i thought they had the time to explore

but alas 2023

[peak escarp]

there's only 3 Archives missions because they only planned for 3 Archives missions

those 3 were very specifically chosen

[dreamy epoch]

yeah now that i think about it
blackwatch is crucial
King's row is a good introduction to null sector
and havana sets up ram which is the tie-in

[peak escarp]

Uprising introduces Null Sector as an enemy and shows Tracer's first mission
Retribution shows how the downfall of Overwatch started with Blackwatch
Storm Rising introduced Maximilien and Ramattra, who are two key players in the OW2 story, and sets up Doomfist's capture in Singapore

[spiral bay]

What ever happened to the Netflix series

[peak escarp]

the series was just a rumor

[iron gorge]

https://imgur.com/a/XscBCPH

did some updates to the timeline

[limpid agate]

Dont use years

Use years as a reference to Recall

Especially since your present day year is not the commonly speculated year.

[iron gorge]

yea good idea

should probably work on that

[limpid agate]

People often guess the year is 2076 because:

• 60 years in the future (game dropped 2016)
• Soldier 76's jacket (before it was turned into his SEP number)
• Its not Cyberpunk 2077

Also, White Dome isn't a ???

It was 23 years ago

Ingrid was pregnant with Brig when it happened

We also dont know when the crisis ended

We have a range of dates we can use as speculation

But we dont have a fixed end date

I dont think the Sojourn novel changes that, does it @peak escarp

[peak escarp]

nope

[limpid agate]

Thats what I thought

[peak escarp]

the novel only covers the first 8-9 months of the crisis

[iron gorge]

the sojourn novel is already out?

[limpid agate]

not really

!!shitposting

[twilit nacelle]

Shitposting will result in a loss of access.

[peak escarp]

it is, but it's hard to get any copies because distributors are holding it back for some reason

there are a few lines in the novel that relate to the new hero, but not enough to justify holding it back

really just a description of a new type of omnic that matches the description of Rammatra's model type

[limpid agate]

The Revator

[peak escarp]

"They're creatures she's never seen before, these menacing monsters the omnium dreamed up in the dark. Tall, humanoid robots reinforced with superhuman strength and speed, heavily armed."

[alpine pawn]

i do have a doubt so an omnium is the only place were a sentient omnic can be made? or can omnics only be those born of auroras sacrifice?

[peak escarp]

as far as we know, omnics can only be made in an omnium

all the omniums are either destroyed, controlled by humans, or controlled by hostile omnics

[alpine pawn]

so thats why they say each time one of us goes a part of us is gone with them, theres no coming generation except of those so full of hate the human integrated omnics cant go to

[prime plank]

How did the omnics become sentient

[peak escarp]

we don't really know

an omnic named Aurora was the first, and she did something to give sentience to all omnics

[alpine pawn]

but we dont know the details or how she was sentient in the first place

[opaque tundra]

The bigger question is how Aurora got sentience

I doubt we'll get the answer to it honestly

[prime plank]

Is there any confirm pictures of Aurora like what's she looks like

[peak escarp]

just a statue of her

[prime plank]

Ahhhhh ok

[opaque tundra]

There's a statue of her illustrated in Stone by Stone and we saw the same statue in the Blizzconline presentation

[peak escarp]

she appears to be the same model as Zenyatta/most civilian omnics

[iron gorge]

is racism against omnics racism

or is it called something else

[peak escarp]

it doesn't really have a name

[alpine pawn]

is probably just called bigotry idk

[peak escarp]

and whether people consider it wrong depends on where you are

hatred towards Omnics is the norm in Junkertown

but when Zarya is rude to an omnic in Japan, humans shun her for it

[alpine pawn]

each society has its own rules and context yeah

numbani embraced omnics and they got enriched by it while russias omnic caused huge destruction and peace was never succesful, so each has a reason why its culture reacts to the omnics how it does

in london resentment from the null sector would seem the norm but theres a poster for a play in female omnics so they seem mixed

[alpine pawn]

japan kinda surprised me since their such an hermetic culture but if you take animism and the acceptance of technology into account it makes more sense

[peak escarp]

(oh look it's Pompamoto again)

they react like she just said a slur

[alpine pawn]

i want a pompamoto redemption arc

i do recall a pic of police shooting an omnic in what seemed capitalist aligned asia but considering the tone is equally possible the image went viral as a motivator for acceptance in that country

[stiff belfry]

If u main sojourn dm me

[worthy rose]

Anyone else kinda get magneto vibes from ramattra imo he seems like zenyattas magneto

[peak escarp]

yeah kinda

[worthy rose]

Any who I’m just really exited for this new character

[past copper]

I get more Darth Vader vibes

Anyone else think this new map will be similar to the place Symmetra went to in Stone by Stone

I can’t tell for based on the image from the short story, but do you think the new map could be Suravasa?

Suravasa is the village on the right

[rough bane]

So I was wondering canonically who would win in a swordfight between Genji and Hanzo. Hanzo may have been the better swordsman in the past, but he hasn't used a sword in years as well as Genji now being cybernetically enhanced while using the sword daily. So just wondering.

[past copper]

Hey, found this. Someone please tell me this is fake, bc I don’t wanna get my hopes up if it is

[shadow marsh]

It's fake

[past copper]

Doubtful. It seems legit given what’s shown. The on,y thing making it tough to believe is the first image

[dense nebula]

It’s fake

[past copper]

I do find the last two possible since there’s no way they don’t meet again

[dense nebula]

It’s already been debunked

[alpine pawn]

yeah is fake specially that moira concern lol

[past copper]

Maybe, but considering that Sigma could probably kill them all if he just snapped

[dense nebula]

Nope

It’s fake

[past copper]

They probably would have to be nice around him

[alpine pawn]

have you listened to sigmas interactions, moira is two oh look an ant away of showing her inner irishman

and sure talon wouldnt have sigma in council speakings

[peak escarp]

those are definitely fake

the terrible dialogue gives it away

[narrow willow]

Why, Vader was only swayed by losing loved ones, this dude is doing the whole "I'm going to defend my people with violence" thing that magneto did with the mutants

[alpine pawn]

i mean yeah the jedi were shity therapist lol

[kindred nimbus]

Id believe the first photo if sigma is levitating

Cuz why sit when u can float

[ivory garnet]

If they were to have equal augmentations, Hanzo would win still, he still shows to have good swordsmanship when he used his bow against genji

[wet lantern]

So what is Kiriko to the shimadas?

[peak escarp]

a childhood friend

[wet lantern]

Well that explains the Genji voiceline.

[alpine pawn]

she has a handful of interactions with both

[ivory garnet]

can someone give me insight on D.Va and Lucio? as they have rather flirtatious voice lines

[peak escarp]

D.Va is a fan of Lucio's music

[brisk obsidian]

So is sigma

and I think tracer

[peak escarp]

he's a pretty popular DJ

[keen summit]

seems more like another place in nepal

[ivory garnet]

really hope blizzard dives more on the lore, I would love to see more relationships between characters and having heart crunching moments

[keen summit]

thing is orisa would never say stuff like that. Look at her lines ingame. She isnt philosophical, shes not built to be

orisa would never give doom even a single compliment

[ivory garnet]

why would she, she is built to fight doomfist

[keen summit]

and indeed also the moira line

moira never cared for anyones instability

[ivory garnet]

she just does whatever she can to experiment more

[keen summit]

and shes actively annoyed by sigma, she wouldnt go "hes too unstable we shouldnt"nah she would relish in being able to see what he can do

[keen summit]

so yeah as doctor six said the dialogue gives it away, terrible dialogue isnt new i mean we have kiriko but its just out of character

[elder wasp]

!!lfg

[twilit nacelle]

LOOKING FOR GROUP

If you are looking for people to play with, assign yourself an LFG role in #roles-old!

[grand wedge]

fake

[grand wedge]

it's another side of Nepal. Suravasa is likely the PVE map we've seen many times in Trailer - burning, with Widowmaker, and Genji saving Zenyatta etc etc

[keen summit]

yeah and ramattra is tied to nepal, new map is tied to ramattra

[grand wedge]

yup

[keen summit]

would be odd to suddenly have a indian map with the omnic

like you could make an india map have teasers for sanjay if there was one non pve

[limpid agate]

India has ties to the Shambali

The map, Varanasi, should be set at one of the stops on Aurora's pilgrimage

[keen summit]

ah mb then

just hoping he wont be as badly written as kiriko

no hate to the writers but imho kiriko was their weakest character ever

and the cinematic was the worse we've had so far

ram so far seems to be better written im just cautious

[paper gazelle]

Ofc we shouldn't be giving massive hatred or unconstructive criticism to the writers, though it is very clear they messed up 3000

But really, sooner or later I'm becoming more sick and tired of all this incessant criticism, complaining and hate towards Kiriko. And I'm feeling even more like pointing her problems out directly to the writers.

(P.S. I'm currently writing a bit of a rant regarding her voice)

[paper gazelle]

For starters, I believe he, Sojourn and JQ were already under planning when the original writers plus Michael Chu were still there

[keen summit]

yeah ram defo

[keen summit]

btw with the add you did i agree (im a starting va) her voice doesnt fit at all. She says constantly that shes a young person, a kid but she sounds middle aged

my main gripes with kiriko are all quite simple. She lacks identity. She was said to be a young badass independant girl. Yet im sorry but "im going to kick every one of you, in the face" doesnt sound badass

My biggest gripe with the cinematic was well sure she looks strong in it, but we cant take her seriously if all shes fighting is some goons who are shown to be incompetent. It doesnt make her look cool then. Hanzo could take out the same amount in less than a minute in dragons and it feels cool cuz he does it quickly and we know hes way above their skill. But then he fights genji and is evenly matched while using a weapon hes trained less in while genji uses his main weapons.

[paper gazelle]

Actually my stand is more of a yes and no. But please do give me time to write my own personal take

[keen summit]

you cant take kiriko seriously but she also cant be taken as kind of a more joke character like junkrat

and just, the kiriko short is awfull

which did not help my sentiment to her in general

she never takes the fight seriously in game too and doesnt show the skill to make it feel logical why she wouldnt

so she ends up feeling like whiplash, she acts super cocky but then also humble aswell. She just feels like you mixed all types of tropes and mixed them

[paper gazelle]

Her Japanese voice lines sound more youthful to me but I might be wrong

[keen summit]

ive said alot about the kiriko short multiple times and well im staying with that its the single worst cinematic of overwatch

[paper gazelle]

I mean you do you but the short didn't stop people from being impressed to the point where they want a Netflix series for some reason

[keen summit]

the writing is clunky in it, it feels all over the place and some things just happen and dont make sense

[keen summit]

yeah cuz i do think the choreography was well done but the writing wasnt great, espec if you actually pay attention to the lore

[paper gazelle]

Yup

Oh the visuals are good too

[keen summit]

asa saying "you believe an animal spirit will help you?" while in her letter she said "i hope the Kitsune will protect you

[paper gazelle]

Welp

Then again

My guess is that there had been a high turnover within Blizzard

[keen summit]

yeah

[paper gazelle]

To the point where they had a change in writers

And the new writers weren't probably aware of the stuff the old ppl left

[keen summit]

kiriko also just... she basically just made spirits confirmed which makes it less fun

cuz now you can just say "oh its cuz spirit."

[paper gazelle]

Yeah that

[keen summit]

like ngl i also kinda disliked jq cinematic cuz all the fourth wall breaks

without it being explained

like you could say that people find it weird that she acts like shes talking to people, make her in game talk to the player and another character go "who you talking to?" make it be part of her thinking shes being watched cuz she just thinks shes that important

instead nobody comments on it

[paper gazelle]

I mean magic is present in many stories like the MCU, but not an excuse to have magic in OW especially when the old guard said "no"
But in the words of Zen, "perhaps magic, is science which is yet to be explained" or sth

Still, that sucks

[keen summit]

or they jsut say "welllll spirits arent necesarilly magic!"

[paper gazelle]

Yeah LMAO

[keen summit]

theyreeeee just the subconcious being contained into a physical form!

"but how?" "fuck if i know! there were spirits since genji and hanzo!"

like honestly it was way more interesting to think of genji and hanzo's dragons as heirlooms through tech than "its just spirits"

[paper gazelle]

Yeah

[keen summit]

what grinds me the most is that for some reason all japanese characters are just stereotypes and are the only ones who have "spirits!"
its obvious they just want to get the anime community in here cuz genji is your badass ninja with a katana and robot body who learned to accept himself, hanzo is the honor bound samurai who now wanders to seek honor and kiriko is your "not like other girls" with a secret power that she uses to fight for her city as a secret hero under the shadows with a group

[paper gazelle]

Well said actually

Considering many anime and manga titles have spirits and Japanese folklore and whatnot

[keen summit]

if we take for example sigma, im dutch so i know my stereotypes and our actual culture well, he takes some things from real life Netherlands like high tech, lots of research and being tall. The rest is all different and original, he's not defined by being dutch

[summer turret]

We now need sigma with a spirit fox. That'll break the stereotype. Replace kiriko in lore and have him train with genji/hanzo.

[paper gazelle]

I'm sorry what-

[summer turret]

Sigma needs lore. Give him kiriko lore.

[keen summit]

rein is a knight which is typical german and european, but hes more than a knight. Sure hes a honor and glory type of guy but he also had to learn to actually not care about only fighting, he is honor bound because he had an oath. Reinhardt also is more than just an honorable knight, hes a loud fun guy

while all the japanese heroes truly are just defined by being japanese

and have typical tropes

same reason why i disliked dva cuz shes a korean esports gamer girl but then they started actually giving her more lore and we saw shes also just a really hard worker who doesnt give herself breaks, she isnt just her stereotype and isnt defined by being korean.

no other hero is defined by their nationality, they have traits from it sure but its not just who they are. Doom is very tribal but has interesting world view etc

thats always been my gripe with the japanese heroes and i was hoping a new one would break it, give them more depth, say like "oh genji was inspired by anime" give us some reason why they are so cliche

but instead we got legit the most generic anime protag, kiriko

[elder wasp]

What was the name of the "model" of omnic that Ramattra is? I recall him being called a Revanator or something but can't find it now when I'm looking for it.

[keen summit]

everybody loves her where she lives, what she says is always cool or funny except for her mom she doesnt think so but thats just because shes scared for her, she has ancient powers passed down from her grandmother and trained from a young age and now is really good. when she says something scary it really is scary, shes insanely good and doesnt take anything seriously

like it just hurts how much she is the typical anime protag

shes in a secret group fighting against the evil people who took over her city and is presumably the leader. She leads a double life aswell etc it just feels so generic. They want her to be cool but instead i just go "wow thats not generic at all"
generic isnt bad not at all, but it means you have to try harder to make it work. give the character a proper reason to be like that

that concludes my 4000000 rant about how bad kiriko's writing is

just hoping its not a trend

[split granite]

Kiriko is alright definitely one of the weaker heroes when it comes to lore though

[keen summit]

cuz ive always loved the thing that ow does, it takes key aspects from the nationality or sometimes even something else like sym's autism and represents that but doesnt make it their core being, not their core personality. All heroes have aspects from their nationality that you can feel a bit and recognize but its never their main thing

like im actually trying to see if im hypocritical by thinking of other's lores but some arent even defined by nationality at all and none other feel liek typical anime protags or sum

they all feel quite realistic, the characters feel like theyre people, maybe a bit over the top but still people.

[split granite]

Zarya is basically the big strong Russian cliche

[keen summit]

it doesnt have to be realistic, i just like my characters feeling like people

[keen summit]

yes, but she has her hatred of omnics and her slowly learning to trust

[split granite]

True

[keen summit]

shes very cliche but she has something more

[split granite]

All kiriko has is she needs to get stronger
Basically just an anime character

Kirikos character progression will be to get strong
Incredible blizzard well done for that one

[paper gazelle]

Gotta say thanks a lot for your input, I really agree with your points 🫡

[keen summit]

nothing falls out of the cliche of basically the shonen protag

[split granite]

I agree with sigmas balls

[keen summit]

just look at any shonen anime and you have kiriko

[split granite]

Yeah they try way to hard to make kiriko cool

[paper gazelle]

Haha you don't say, I didn't write a lot as compared to miner. But thanks!

[elder wasp]

She needs to get strong in order to save those she cares for though, very unique motivation

[keen summit]

secret power thats really powerfull, check, training with high power people, check, doesnt take fights seriously, check

[split granite]

I think what kinda put me off was how just everyone loves her for no reason
Sombra is like “I think you and me are gonna get along” come on…

[keen summit]

it just hurts man

[keen summit]

EXACTLY

like

ONCE MORE THE SHONEN PROTAG FRIENDING THE ENEMIES

[split granite]

Why would sombra ever say that
Torb also is interested in what sombra has but she doesn’t let him know that he is the best and coolest and strongest

[elder wasp]

Hard to not get along with someone who's so plain

[split granite]

However I think what saved kiriko is in game
All her unique interactions with genji and hanzo are great and I love all the little voice lines she has when she tps etc

[keen summit]

thing is like, she makes alot of like comments on people yet she never says stuff direct

[keen summit]

yeah but even then we hear nothing of what kiriko thinks of yknow, the incident with hanzo and genji.

[paper gazelle]

I guess y'all count"oh she's a hot anime girl worthy of [redacted]" as no reason at all 🤣🤣

[keen summit]

i no joke like the "picking up the sword" line with hanzo cuz it finally explains why he doesnt use a blade and also is legit kinda funny

[split granite]

Yeah I had some pretty crazy expectations for kiriko before she was revealed
Which they can’t really do anymore

[worthy rose]

Mann vs machine

[split granite]

Truth

[worthy rose]

Wrong server

[keen summit]

but the youth line with soldier just....

like

okay?

[paper gazelle]

I do like her interactions with some of the other characters too
And my favourite part is Genji tripping on a sword LMAO

[keen summit]

and the ages being weird too

[paper gazelle]

Oh that

Wait I think I got sth from Polygon

[keen summit]

so ow decided to delete ages from overwatch site

[split granite]

I expected kiriko would be a bit younger and not have a previous relation to the shimada but would run into hanzo and she would be what pushes hanzo to redemptions
Basically becoming his student or successor like brig to rein

[paper gazelle]

“We definitely wanted her to have some sort of tie with the Shimada brothers,” Min said. “An early iteration was [that Kiriko was] their long-lost sister, but we ditched that idea because we wanted to make our worldview look a little bit bigger, but still connected. We landed on [Kiriko being] a family friend, like a niece sort of relationship between those two.

[keen summit]

but if we are to believe that shes say 20? she'd be years 15 younger than genji AND TRAIN WITH THEM?

[paper gazelle]

Notice the a niece relationship

[keen summit]

if she was 5 which is about what it seems to imply she was training with 20 and 23 year old people

[elder wasp]

Thats not too odd? They are training and she hangs around to learn things too?

[split granite]

Is that even possible in the lore was genji not “killed” by then

[paper gazelle]

Think shld be more like 5 and 15-18

But still... age gap LMAO

[keen summit]

yeah and that would still make her cliche but atleast make timeline have some logic, it would give hanzo some recent lore aswell

[paper gazelle]

Would've made more sense if the device said she's in her mid or late 20s

[keen summit]

but thing is that would mean she would be 25 still and sorry but you dont say "kids can surprise you" when yo uare 25

[paper gazelle]

Yeah but then again Widow regards D.va as a child

So...

[keen summit]

she constantly talks about the youth but 25 yes its young but you wouldnt say you are a kid

[keen summit]

dva is 19.

so its logical

[split granite]

They also could of done it so she can’t really use her fox spirit and she really isn’t THAT skilled so maybe hanzo sees a bit of genji in her helps her
Would of been really nice for hanzo to do something

[keen summit]

25 some people already have kids you wouldnt say you are a kid anymore

[split granite]

They just like making that joke about soldier being old a lot

[keen summit]

yes but thing is she doesnt just do it to soldier

[paper gazelle]

Who does she also do it to?

[keen summit]

she talks bout being young and many other things about being so young

[split granite]

I don’t remember tbh

[keen summit]

ana says to her that she reminds her of when she was younger, she constantly says "dont unerestimate the youth" that kinda stuff

[paper gazelle]

Well she is young

[split granite]

Oh I thought that line was said to soldier

[keen summit]

i know, but thing is why the hell would soldier say its not a daycare when we have other heroes at the same age who ahem arent called out for that

[paper gazelle]

She would technically be a youth if we follow the "early twenties" blizzard gave us

[split granite]

Yeah but characters like tracer and brig aren’t treated as kids

Brig is 23/24

[keen summit]

yes

[split granite]

Also thinking about it

[elder wasp]

Maybe it is part of her due to being much younger than Genji and Hanzo

[keen summit]

brig doesnt talk about being younger only about living up to something which is reinhardt

still hate how we dont have ages on website anymore

[split granite]

What is their obsession with making her like a high school anime protagonist while also trynna make her independent and older

[elder wasp]

Well the community is eating it up so

[split granite]

She has sprays of cliche school girl late for school but also bought her own place in kanezaka

[paper gazelle]

So conclusion: the devs at Blizzard fucked up

[keen summit]

aka another trope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! anime protags living alone!

[split granite]

Obviously
Anime girl is the easiest bait ever

[keen summit]

cuz for some reason if you look at anime protags alot live alone cuz well the parents arent important!

[split granite]

It’s actually kind of weird that they try and make her like a teenager at school when she’s 25 probably

[keen summit]

yeah

but once more i did go back and check

tracer is 26.

[paper gazelle]

Also omg hot girl she so seggsy I love her Skyline GT-R thirty four!!

[split granite]

One or the other she’s either an anime schoolgirl or she’s cool and fends for herself and her city

[keen summit]

another thing btw this is a small gripe but i find it odd that tracer went to brig in zero hour like "omg you've grown!!!!!!!" like bitch you two are like 3 years apart

[paper gazelle]

Sorry I brought that up

[paper gazelle]

Ah yes why did I not think of that HAHAHAHA

[keen summit]

but soldier doesnt treat tracer like a kid, he doesnt say to tracer "this isnt a daycare"

even when she joined and was much younger he treated her with respect

[split granite]

Last she saw brig though tracer was an adult and brig was going through puberty I think? She was like 16/17

[paper gazelle]

Ok fair enough, I stand corrected

[keen summit]

yes but thing is 16-17 for girls most of the time is full grown as in just length

[elder wasp]

There are other ways to grow

A 17 year old clearly isnt an adult it's quite obvious

Compared to someone in their mid 20s

(Generally)

[keen summit]

btw right here is what i meant with even earlier soldier already treated tracer with respect

[keen summit]

tracer clearly was talking about height

[split granite]

I assumed that’s what you were talking about

[keen summit]

she didnt say stuff about expirience

[paper gazelle]

But honestly despite all these problems I really hope Kiriko's character and story gets improved, and not deleted or whatsoever, and sorry to be blunt but I will despise anyone who suggests she gets completely cancelled and deleted from the game, any unconstructive bashing of the devs even though they've done wrong, or attacks against her VA

[split granite]

He even listens to tracer and it’s only because of her uprising happens

The pve mission I mean

[keen summit]

yeah

but thats the thing

[elder wasp]

Pretty sure "you've grown" is an expression for "you've gotten more adult"
I don't remember the context for this interaction, is it that comic where they celebrate Christmas?

[keen summit]

kiriko just is somehow meant to feel young, cool, badass, caring

[keen summit]

nope its in zero hour

[split granite]

Kiriko kinda feels a bit forced like just a way to bring people back to ow2

[elder wasp]

Ty

[keen summit]

she legit acts like one of those aunts or grandmothers who then pinch your cheeks while saying it

[paper gazelle]

Yeah

[elder wasp]

(Zero hour came our 3 years ago wtf)

[split granite]

She is a intentionally cute anime protag with powers like genji and hanzo and she trained with them and she knows them but she does do anything in lore except beat up thugs

[paper gazelle]

Though really if they fuck up Ramattra's lore it'd be even worse, considering he seems to be more of an important character to the story of OW2

[split granite]

They just wanted the anime community to see her and old ow fans would be like “oh she’s related to genji interesting might have to play her”

Ramattra doesn’t appear to be like kiriko at all

[paper gazelle]

Then that's good

[split granite]

Where I feel kiriko was rushed just to try and appeal to anime fans
They have taken their time refining ramattra and they really wanna set up as a big threat

[keen summit]

yeah this discussion started simply by me being like "hopin kiriko isnt a sign of future writing cuz i dont want ramattra to be messed up"

[paper gazelle]

I mean then again Ramattra was alr under the works longer than Kiriko

[split granite]

My evidence to this points at the silhouette leak from 2019
There’s literally no denying it’s legitimacy anymore considering the big shuriken wielder and staff user

[keen summit]

Another thing is that she has no depth while you couldbe given her some, she doesnt have it hard cuz of the responsibility she has etc its all just nothing

[split granite]

But yeah ramattra has had that staff and they tried refining him for years
Kiriko they completely scrapped after 2019 recoloured her design made up some new abilities and were like ok done

[elder wasp]

Problem is they didn't have to add depth, imo. They probably knew they could get away with cookicutter stuff.

[split granite]

Yeah design and abilities alone convinced people she was good

They can’t do the same for ramattra though

[keen summit]

even her abilities are cliche thats the best part

[split granite]

Kiriko isn’t the start of a problem ramattra is literally too important to fuck up
Also wasn’t rushed out which I really do believe she was rushed

[keen summit]

at first her suzu wasnt even meant too be what it is now

it was at first a smoke bomb, this had to be late in change though cuz well they did test it + ahem look at her souvenir animation

[elder wasp]

Ramattra is a major player in the "main plot". Kiriko is just a side character.

[keen summit]

even then, lots of side characters are well developed

[split granite]

Oh I didn’t know that interesting

[elder wasp]

Yes yes, I agree, it's not excuse

[split granite]

Kiriko even got her own short story I believe

[elder wasp]

Just saying you can't give Ram the sam treatment due to his important he (most likely) is for the story

[keen summit]

they scrapped it cuz it became to painfull with 2 kirikos

[keen summit]

she did

there it was confirmed to be spirits.

which basically just hurt the universe more

[elder wasp]

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9acxn7qAST4)

[split granite]

No not that

[paper gazelle]

The written one

[elder wasp]

Oh sorry

[paper gazelle]

Issok

[split granite]

It’s alright they hardly even promoted it

If at all

[keen summit]

i loved that in overwatch everything had a scientific answer with the tech we knew in overwatch

[split granite]

I found it by accident

[split granite]

Tbf genji and hanzo have always used spirits

[keen summit]

yes but you could atleast theorize that it was symbolic

now its completely confirmed

[paper gazelle]

Guess that made OW kinda special as compared to many other popular universes

[keen summit]

that spirits exist is something i already called in this channe;

[split granite]

I personally didn’t think there was any denying the spirits were real but they have more of a meaning to genji and hanzo
Kiriko just has one to be like them two

[keen summit]

yeah it did cuz alot of games just have magic in it too

[split granite]

I really hope we never go down the magic route in ow

Would fuck everything up

[keen summit]

nah you could still say that well the sword projects the dragon and the arrow can project it cuz well scatter exists and genji always had green glow while dashing

[paper gazelle]

Maybe the whole magic thing would be constrained to Japan KEKW

[keen summit]

hardlight is near limitless, only limit it had was that it needed a projector

[keen summit]

and that it is

[split granite]

I guess but the dragon on hanzo always causes his tattoos to glow before it’s summoned

[keen summit]

like nobody else has anything with spirits

[keen summit]

yeah so common theory was that it was tech imbedded into the arm

like doom has a prosthetic arm that looks like a human arm

[split granite]

Oh true

[keen summit]

but thx to the guns in it you know its not

or sojourn

like the only reason why they dont look human

is cuz all the upgrades she has

like rocket stuff and a gun in her hand

[split granite]

They need to release that sojourn cinematic soon

[keen summit]

couldve just been tech only shimadas were allowed to have

they commisioned hardlight companies to make it for them and only them and put it in their body or weapons

[elder wasp]

Such an odd thing to do for a technology that probably has a lot of uses

[keen summit]

shimadas were powerfull enough

they were one of the strongest clans, if they wanted that they could have it, keep in mind just cause dragons wouldve been theirs wouldnt have meant the main tech was only for them

but now thats all debunked

a super cool potential plot point wasted for spirits that only seem to be in japan for some reason

i just fear that theyll now also go that the iris also is just a spirit instead of for example a god program

[paper gazelle]

We'll see about that

But I'm more concerned about the general story; I'm pretty convinced that Michael and the previous writers already planned out the general story years back (considering Michael did say in a podcast that he believed the story/lore was in good hands), but maybe that could be subject to change depending on whether the new people decide to change it up or not. But I hope not

[keen summit]

eh kiriko could just be the weak link

as it might be as we already said they didnt really try and just made a typical anime protag

[kindred nimbus]

They should add more spirits

Like mythical creatures from other countries

[keen summit]

no

please

please no

it would legit hurt ow so much

[elder wasp]

That would kill the whole feel of OW for me

[keen summit]

really would

[paper gazelle]

So I'll talk about the casting choice for Kiriko. Yes, Sally Amaki's voice for Kiriko does tends to sound flat and uninteresting at times. When she speaks English, she doesn't have that Japanese English accent but one closer to the American accent. And her lines in English may sound middle aged to some (I might be wrong but her lines in Japanese sound more youthful. And I know of youths who have pretty deep voices.)

So if she's not suitable to voice Kiriko, then why did Blizzard devs make the choice to hire Amaki as her voice actress? Were they on drugs or what? Sure, they could've hired some other VA (even one who's unknown) who has more experience and is more capable. Why cast her?

Well, I believe they knew what they were doing. And they kinda indirectly admitted that she still needs a lot to do to be on the same level as the other VAs they've casted so far, according to an interview by Polygon:

“This is her first game work, so there was a learning curve, because vocally [games have] very different delivery,” Min recalled. “But she just was such a champ — she went through four-hour late night sessions like nothing and would be like, Oh, yeah, I have a concert tomorrow, because she’s part of a J-pop idol group.”
(A bit of correction here: this isn't exactly her first game work. She's done work for a game based on 22/7, and also for a Japanese RPG. But I guess those have different delivery as compared to OW2. Hence this is her first Western game work)

My guess is because they probably want a recognisable enough personality, or a seiyuu, in Japan to better appeal to Japanese audiences (side note I've seen Japanese fans of Sally on Twitter who started playing OW2 because of her role), but at the same time they also need someone who's sufficiently proficient in English and Japanese. Sure there are more talented and more established female seiyuus, but most of them are just not great in the English language. Plus, Amaki's status as an idol for 22/7 (some idol multimedia project) could help if Blizzard wanted her to sing a hypothetical song for the OW franchise. And oh, her age (22) is in the same age group as Kiriko.

But I do know of one other Seiyuu who speaks Japanese fluently and is really proficient in English, who has done more VA work in games, and who also does idol work. So why Amaki over her? I don't know. Probably because they wanted to give her a chance to venture into the AAA Western game foray? Or maybe Sally expressed interest in the role unlike the other, who probably didn't? I hope there's an interview with Sally Amaki so we can get to know why she signed up for it and how she landed the role.

Maybe some here would want to see her being replaced by a better talent. But I'd say, give her a chance. Why deny her of an opportunity to lend her voice to a Western game? Yes there is a really high bar for the quality of the voice actors and actresses in Overwatch, but does that mean that they cannot nurture voice acting talent? Sally is only 22, as compared to the older VAs, and she still has a long way to go. I believe that the other existing VAs can give her guidance to improve and grow as a video game voice actress, and I hope she does have the drive to improve gradually and continuously. Maybe in the future we could see more improvements in her voice lines. And oh yes, the current Blizzard writers need to improve their writing too.

Maybe I've missed out certain stuff, maybe my thoughts and opinions are wrong and misguided too, or maybe my whole statement is rushed. But I am very certain is that, the last thing that needs to be done is to cancel and attack her. We can instead point out to her her errors in a constructive manner.

[limpid agate]

My guess is because they probably want a recognisable enough personality, or a seiyuu, in Japan to better appeal to Japanese audiences

Just a pause here

Sally doesn't voice her in Japanese

Ai Fairouz does

If you want my thoughts on it. I think they casted her for the short primarily, because her casting for the game feels like an afterthought.

She's fine in the short.

Its in game where she sounds like she's bored in the booth

[paper gazelle]

Yes I am very well aware. Why I said so was because of my observations of a number of Japanese Twitter users who commented on her posts (Sally's fans ig) who've expressed interest in OW2 after she announced her role

[paper gazelle]

Hmm probably

[limpid agate]

I dont think that's appealing to Japanese fans as much as just

Sally Amaki fans

Japanese fans would just play in Japanese

[keen summit]

i dont think she should be replaced, i just hate kiriko in general and the direction mightve been off on her too cuz some lines really fall flat

[limpid agate]

I think its too late to replace her.

Shes in the game.

[keen summit]

exactly

well tbh

[limpid agate]

So we just have to make the most of it.

[keen summit]

r6 has replaced vas multiple times

[paper gazelle]

Ah yes

[limpid agate]

R6 also has barely any fucking dialogue

The voices are not as important cues as they are in OW

Unless its Clash

[keen summit]

yeah

they were recast for cinematics basically

thing is idk why but kiriko sounds like she has a constant filter on

its odd

like i dont know what but it just, feels off

[paper gazelle]

Hmm yeah but we'll never know, some of them probably might use the English voice instead
Maybe my mind is kinda blur rn so

[worthy rose]

i hate kirikos voice

[keen summit]

like i respect the va, but the direction couldve been off or something

also tbh the writing for kiriko is weak so delivery off bad lines will often be hard

that i know as a person who does va stuff for beginners and stuff

sometimes you just cant properly do sum thx to the lines being bad

[paper gazelle]

Like I said. The Blizzard writers need to realise that

[keen summit]

so possible that the direction wasnt that great either, and if you have little expirience you can have it hard, valo has pretty good voice acting while it uses a ice skater for one of them

but idk how to explain it

kiriko sounds like she has a filter

[paper gazelle]

Come to think of it. I wonder if she's deep down uninterested in voicing for the game, then could she say "oh sorry can I just do the short please?" Considering Echo had a different VA between the animated shorts and the game itself, if my memory serves me right

[keen summit]

reason for echo is different

thjere was time in between

[paper gazelle]

Hmm yeah but apparently they still employed the same VA for Ramattra. Apparently Ramon Tikaram alr did the voiceover for the character back in storm rising

But anyway, yes you're right, there is a problem with this direction. And I hope this gets raised to the devs so that they can avoid making the same mistakes and even make the proper amendments

[dense nebula]

Not to mention how much of the lore she retcons

With the introduction of magic

[keen summit]

yeah

kiriko is just worst written character and i hope its not a trend

[past copper]

Well, if players complain enough, Blizzard may be forced to retcon her and even say she doesn’t actually have magic

[forest spoke]

What makes her a bad written character?

[past copper]

But this is Blizzard we’re talking about with new devs and writers who apparently put old things on the back burner

[long latch]

how is winston younger than pharah?

[keen summit]

i went into a whole rant earlier but in short shes just a trope, a anime trope

shes so generic and shes just that trope

nothing more

no develpoment

[forest spoke]

She's literally just a new character. Maybe they ain't giving much away until the pve and more lore is introduced. I'm not saying you are wrong just maybe give them abit more time?

[keen summit]

all japanese characters actually have that they are just their stereotype

[keen summit]

thing is characters like ramattra who isnt even out yet have more depth than her

cuz we've seen the same problem with hanzo

hanzo also is just a japanese stereotype of the honorbound samurai

she doesnt have connections to anyone except the shimadas too, and well hanzo had the same problem and guess what we've not had any more lore from him since dragons

[forest spoke]

Okay but Hanzo again has his own story and will develop as pve etc is introduced. Maybe Kiriko/her family will be more involved with it

[keen summit]

why would they? what do they have to do with the greater story?

[forest spoke]

We don't know because it hasn't happened yet

Lol

[keen summit]

however we do know what kiriko is like

and we know shes focussed on protecting kanezaka

so only if kanezaka gets attacked she cares

[forest spoke]

The same with dva but that's changed

[keen summit]

pve isnt that every character will be important'

[forest spoke]

She was literally only involved with the mech team now she's joining overwatch. You need time to build a story

[keen summit]

and even if they develop her, what would it develop? her getting stronger? Her entire personality is generic while also having that nobody dislikes her

[forest spoke]

If they just drop someone's full story at once we would be like wtf

[keen summit]

not really?

and also

its not the story

its the character itself

the character is legit just tropes with no depth

tell me one unique thing about kiriko

[forest spoke]

So are most of overwatch characters. Until lore is dropped.

[keen summit]

just one

[keen summit]

not really, lots feel different enough with only their origin story

for example sigma or orisa

and none are as defined by nationality as all the japanese ones are

you cant tell me kiriko is well written

the things with her saying shes young and stuff feels forced

[forest spoke]

She's not well written. But she hasn't had much wrote for her. At the minute.

[keen summit]

even jq is better tbh tho

or sojourn

who all have as little

or echo

all have more depth more interesting and unique ideas

[forest spoke]

They still all have more written about them than kiriko. You are judging a character on one short. And no other lore apart from a few lines in game

[keen summit]

no? origin story.

kiriko has letter to yama, short story, origin story and a small story written

jq we didnt know much about except she dislikes junkrat and hog and shes the leader.

[paper gazelle]

Wasn't the letter that from Asa to her husband?

[keen summit]

sojourn we knew she was a leader

[keen summit]

yes

but it also talked about kiriko

[paper gazelle]

Yeah

[keen summit]

and sojourn has LESS written than kiriko

she doesnt have a short

and new hero already has more depth aswell. Kiriko could easily have same fate as hanzo where she gets left behind

[forest spoke]

The fact you said could is my point.

[keen summit]

how?

liek

i get it

MAYBE she gets attention in pve

but it doesnt change that shes badly written

[forest spoke]

Hanzo and Kiriko will be developed together I think.

[keen summit]

shes the typical shonen protag with no nuance really

[forest spoke]

With links to her mum etc they will get their own story. Don't know in what form but it's gonna happen

[keen summit]

thing is she doesnt even have 1 line about hanzo almost killing genji

not even 1

[forest spoke]

Maybe she didn't know?

It's all ifs and buts

[keen summit]

how? how would she not know she just thought they both left and asa stopped training them

sigma atm is the hero with least lore

why? because sigma was never meant to exist

yet he still has more depth than kiriko

the argument of "oh shes new she doesnt have much lore yet" isnt a good excuse cuz sigma has only 1 appearance ever and thats his own origin story

another mistake they made which is why kiriko short is so bad is they dont know what they want her to be, funny or cool. do you want people to laugh at the action or be impressed? by putting her up against goons that cant do shit it doesnt impress us yet its done as if its really cool while the goons acting as comic relief. what should i feel from it then. the short is a whole different mess that i despise the writing of

[forest spoke]

Oh I know. Sigma has a tiny but of lore but it's more interesting. I have said multiple times that she is poorly written. Not ever character is going to get as much attention as others until they get involved in the story. The fact that Sigma is linked now with main factors in the overall story is giving him an appeal too. Kiriko is a young new character that will gradually be added to the main story.

[keen summit]

thing is we dont know if she will

and even then shes the most generic one cuz she checks all the typical anime protag boxes making her legit feel boring

she doesnt have a single trait that isnt basic anime protag

none of the rest of the cast had this problem, none are defined by nationality as much as the japanese characters are

cuz i have a problem with the whole japanese cast of overwatch tbh which i said earlier too

[forest spoke]

Mcree/Cassidy. Ashe. Solider.

[keen summit]

here

[keen summit]

soldier still has more and feels bad for the fall of overwatch, also the supersoldier program is something interesting. ashe touche but she has that she came from rich family and was hated by her parents for being a trouble maker and doing crime, cassidy still has that he recruits people for new overwatch and was against unnecessary killing.

they all have more depth

[forest spoke]

I was just about to say they have more depth now. But they started off as generic. Well not as bad as kiriko but you get my drift

[keen summit]

soldier always had the super soldier program

and always felt bad for it

overwatch

[forest spoke]

So a super soldier isn't a generic trope? Lol

[keen summit]

ashe legit had that introduced only with short

[keen summit]

its not his entire personality

thats the thing

its a trope but the trope doesnt define him

[forest spoke]

Yea but it did at the start until we got more lore.

[keen summit]

not really as that was lore that we had at the start, his origin story.

thats the thing

if its already in their origin story

[forest spoke]

I'm not disagreeing dude. Just think we have been blessed with so much that we get slightly greedy

[keen summit]

i just hate kiriko with a passion cuz her terrible writing

espec after they could make up a character and have better writing for him

while for kiriko we had years till she came out

they had years to rewrite, work on and change her

yet it came out as the most generic and tropey character in the game

[forest spoke]

I do believe she has more to come

But like I said she is badly written atm

[keen summit]

problem is, with most i can kinda understand how you could make them better through story

[forest spoke]

Like she will be meaningful like diva. But for now she has to learn her trade or something

[keen summit]

hanzo could indeed go away from his trope by losing some of that steadfast honor stuff by teaching kiriko more and her making him elt loose

but kiriko

no clue, like zero

shes made to be like this

and thing is dva never lost her original character but it also wasnt unexpected for her. cuz she wasnt like she only wanted to protect busan, no she wanted to protect people

kiriko is like "kanekaza is under my protection"

only way she'll be in pve is if kanekaza is attacked

then she has a shot

cuz kiriko from her character isnt the type to go out to protect, no she protects kanekaza thats all

[forest spoke]

Kanekaza gets attacked. Hanzo helps defend it. Regain his honor or whatever then decides to join the bigger fight. Kiriko something similar.

[keen summit]

shes not like jq who if given the offer would relish in the idea of killing tons of omnics, its not heroic but she would help overwatch

[forest spoke]

Again I hope it will be more than that but just a quick thought.

Maybe she gets convinced by Genji to come help for the greater good? I don't know

[keen summit]

i doubt it tbh

genji wouldnt ask someone to help

out of character

he wants everyone to choose their path

[forest spoke]

I don't mean straight out ask.

But give her an option of a path.

Along those lines. Maybe it's Cassidy or something. But that's how I see her character going.

[keen summit]

thing is kiriko doesnt seem the type to take that offer

shes constantly been talking about protecting kanezaka

[forest spoke]

We don't know because we ain't got enough on her yet lol

[keen summit]

if a person only talks about 1 thing

cuz kiriko

shes not shown to be heroic in general, she protects kanezaka and the people there not because general protecting no because she wants to protect kanezaka

why would she leave her duty as she says behind

i really hope they improve her

im just

also pissed of that they deleted the big bios on overwatch heroes

like straight up, maybe that couldve made her more interesting

i wouldve much rather been happy with her

[paper gazelle]

Yeah. And funny, they've yet to explain why they did so. Maybe because they wanted to simplify stuff for the laymen of today? Or let the devs have a better passage to retcon shit? Or sth else?

[past copper]

Y’all think Zenyatta’s orbs all mean something? We know about Harmony and Discord

But you think the others represent the seven chakras?

[grand wedge]

i think he gave Symmettra the "Perception" I think in the short story?

[ruby ibex]

Hello guys, i don't know Who Is the Mercy's husband...

[grand wedge]

she isn't married

[past copper]

She’s not married so if this a shitpost go elsewhere with it please. Like Reddit

Also, pretty sure if the nine orbs represent the chakras, these might be it

The other two are harmony and discord

Which Zen uses

[autumn quartz]

I mean Mercy has a cannon ship with Genji

[limpid agate]

Its not confrimed

[past copper]

That’s not cannon

[limpid agate]

But it is implied

[past copper]

Just because fans ship it doesn’t make it true

[autumn quartz]

I am going off of the voicelines

[limpid agate]

Yes it is the only inter-hero relationship that gets any form of teasing

[autumn quartz]

I remember she literally asked him on a date on one of them. But oh well i guess

[limpid agate]

But it is not officially canon

[past copper]

Not all voices lines mean much

There’s literally voice lines between Junkrat and some heroes he’s clearly never met. Tracer, Hanzo, Mei

[autumn quartz]

I never said all voicelines have meaning

[past copper]

Just like a what if situation. Though no clue how Hanzo could’ve heard of Junkrat’s treasure

Unless the Junker is spouting his mouth off again

Which honestly he would

[autumn quartz]

How are Junker queen and junkrat related

I never caught on on that

[limpid agate]

They are both from Junkertown

Thats it

Junkrat got kicked out by the Queen for being a shit disturber

[autumn quartz]

damn

[past copper]

Do you see a hamster ruling over Junkertown?

[limpid agate]

We cant answer that question

They didnt give Junkerqueen a bio

[past copper]

I’d imagine they’re not. The Recking could very well just be a yearly thing they started while fights are just entertainment for the residents since what else can they do around Junkertown?

[limpid agate]

Hammond has been around for more than a year

He's been in Junkertown for over a decade

[past copper]

Collect scarp for money. Kill wild omnics. And build weapons outta scrap to fight

Maybe, but I doubt he’d be ruler unless he beats the Junker Queen. As I’d imagine the Recking goes

Beat the ruler, you take the crown. Don’t beat them, and they rule another year

[mossy hamlet]

junkertown is peak government

[past copper]

I’d honestly say they’re government is much more tolerable. Just not towards omnics

Hence one of Zenyatta’s lines about not feeling welcomed on that map

[autumn quartz]

Junker queen isnt gonna be much of a "queen" if she aint ruling junkertown

[past copper]

Seems she’s more liked then the previous ruler at least. She looks out for her people

[autumn quartz]

She gives her murder weapons names. Whats not to love?

[past copper]

That is to say, that doesn’t mean she will allow public nuisance to stand. Hence Junkrat and Roadhog getting kicked out

Hey at least they got better treatment then Howl. He actually looked terrified to lose everything while Junk and Hog make the best of it

[autumn quartz]

Whos Howl

damn I am out of the loop

[limpid agate]

Mason Howl

The Junker King from her short

[autumn quartz]

ah

[past copper]

Speaking of Junkertown. Wonder what voice lines Ramattra will have when players use him on that map

I doubt he has anything positive to say

Probably something along the lines of wanting to destroy Junkertown

[mossy hamlet]

probably something like, pretentious/pseudophilosophical

along the lines of “Junkertown; the hatred and scum of humanity manifested and centralized”

kinda like what kenobi had to say about mos eisely

“You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy”

[peak escarp]

something something wretched hive of scum and villany

lol

[mossy hamlet]

yes

[autumn quartz]

What are the chances that thats exactly what he says

[mossy hamlet]

at least 20%

I would honestly love that

[peak escarp]

the devs are nerds, they'd definitely try to sneak that in

[autumn quartz]

It'd be funny

[past copper]

They do love to add references from retro movies

Like The Iron Giant references with Bastion

[mossy hamlet]

I love bastion (I also love the iron giant)

anyway speaking of ramattra, what are y’alls opinions on him in general

[limpid agate]

Looks like a good addition

[autumn quartz]

Edgy Zenyatta

[limpid agate]

Bring useful story beats

Looks like a good villain

[peak escarp]

I'm hyped for more lore-intense characters

[limpid agate]

Better than the last hero, who is the worst addition to the franchise

[past copper]

As long as devs or writers don’t fuck up his lore, I’d say he’s the perfect villain

[peak escarp]

and finally moving the story forward

[autumn quartz]

Who?

didnt we get 3 at once

oops

wrong reply

[limpid agate]

Kiriko was the last hero

[autumn quartz]

Ah

Yea they just went: SO basically Genji and Hanzo have a relative now

[past copper]

His design looks sick, his behavior looks great, his background sounds good, his abilities seem awesome, and now all we need is his lore and we’ll be all set

[limpid agate]

No they didnt

Kiriko isnt a relative to Genji and Hanzo

[past copper]

Honestly, I think the devs got rushed after that cinematic leak got out

[autumn quartz]

I mean loosely related to them

[limpid agate]

You cant rush those flaws

Those flaws were there from before the leak

[past copper]

Well then new writers or devs should go back and read the lore before moving forward

Otherwise, mistakes like that could make or break the story

[mossy hamlet]

how’s ramattra feel about pillows

[gentle shuttle]

i just realized something about sig's moira interaction
"you've been awfully quiet today, doctor. i've gotten a lot done."
sigma can say a few different things:
"can a fish that never sees the surface know it's underwater?"
"can one know that one knows nothing?"
and a couple other lines. originally i thought this was just crazy man ramblings but now i think he's insulting moira. like she's the fish that doesnt see the surface, she doesnt know that she knows nothing

[peak escarp]

not mistakes

retcons

[iron gorge]

LMAO yeahhh ur right!

[mossy hamlet]

okay wait

I wanna answer those

[noble pendant]

She also has a habit of dissing every single character in her interactions and now she finally met her match lol

[gentle shuttle]

he does insult soldier in a similar way too lol

[limpid agate]

Yeah I think you might be reading too much into that

[gentle shuttle]

nah bro sigma is deep

[mossy hamlet]

what’s his soldier diss

[noble pendant]

Oh yeah, very deep. I love his classic quote "Hold it together"

[gentle shuttle]

"snap out of it old man! we need you to fight"
"oh wow, an ant on the cieling!"
"hey, im talking to you"
"oh look, another one. such marvelous creatures"

[gentle shuttle]

its true, sigma is just like ahab fr

[noble pendant]

And "What is that melody???"

[mossy hamlet]

anyway, a fish that never sees the surface can’t know it’s underwater, but a fish can’t really recognize that it’s underwater regardless because of its lower cognitive functions

[gentle shuttle]

ok but what is that melody goes hard as fuck

[mossy hamlet]

same thing for the one that knows nothing

they cannot know that they know nothing, because knowing that they know nothing is knowing something

[noble pendant]

Me every single time I hear a song with no lyrics and try to google that song to add it to a playlist

[mossy hamlet]

what would a ramattra/sigma interaction go like

[gentle shuttle]

both essentially say that those of lesser cognitive functions (relative to sig) either

1. cant understand the true nature of the universe in the fish example or
2. cant understand their own ignorance of the universe

[gentle shuttle]

considering the iris interaction with zen

im hype for it

[noble pendant]

I havent seen that

Oh god

Dont spoil it

[limpid agate]

Its an interaction where Sigma says he met the Iris, and Zen gets really confused

Because the Iris isnt a person

Sigma is not a reliable source who talks about random stuff like fairies because his head isnt all there

[iron gorge]

The iris is probably some sort of Lovecraftian ancient god

[noble pendant]

Awh man I wanted to find that interaction myself 😦

[iron gorge]

Or alien

[gentle shuttle]

fr

[peak escarp]

the Iris is a state of being

[noble pendant]

I see The Iris as something like enlightenment

[peak escarp]

like Nirvana

[noble pendant]

Yeah what he said

[past copper]

Ok if aliens exist, then the lore really is broken

[gentle shuttle]

the iris needs to have some bungie style lore to it, yknow? like its an ancient collective consciousness or something

[noble pendant]

They dont, from what we know

[gentle shuttle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quVy690MUCc

[noble pendant]

Sigma saying he "Met The Iris" is like Zen saying "I just focus on my breathing" to Genji

[gentle shuttle]

this vid got me so hyped for sig lore

[peak escarp]

the Sojourn novel confirms that aliens don't exist

[gentle shuttle]

the what

[iron gorge]

If there are aliens theyre probably related to lijiang tower and the space accident

[peak escarp]

Dr. Liao's father was obsessed with proving the existence of alien life

implying that it hasn't been proven

[gentle shuttle]

hammond is technically an alien, so is winston if they were born on ze moon

[noble pendant]

How can you even confirm that, space is infinite right?

I mean we know Overwatch kinda wants to take the "Magic is just science we dont understand"

But Kiriko kinda fucks that up

[past copper]

The only “alien” life are the apes living on the Horizon Lunar Colony on the moon

[iron gorge]

the iris may also be why sigma went lunatic

[limpid agate]

No, that was a black hole

Or singularity rather

[gentle shuttle]

same diff

[limpid agate]

Not the same diff at all.

Not even remotely

[gentle shuttle]

sig accesses the iris via massive amounts of energy

[limpid agate]

What

Don't spread misinformation.

[gentle shuttle]

if the iris is a being in a higher

[gentle shuttle]

dude

this is conjecture

[past copper]

Bro at this point sounds like shitposting with no actual reasoning

[limpid agate]

Then preface it as conjecture

Not fact

[noble pendant]

It isn't

Have you seen the Widowmaker Cinematic?

[gentle shuttle]

if the iris is a being in a higher dimension like sig suggests, maybe his tampering with the black hole led him to meet the iris

[noble pendant]

"We are all one within the Iris" suggests it is not a god

[past copper]

The Iris is basically the Shambali’s views of an afterlife for everyone

[limpid agate]

Sigma doesnt suggest that though...

[peak escarp]

not quite

[gentle shuttle]

"ah yes the iris, we've met"

[peak escarp]

the Iris is like Nirvana

[limpid agate]

Yes

[gentle shuttle]

its definitely not a person

[limpid agate]

That's not what you said

[peak escarp]

Nirvana isn't the afterlife, it's an enlightened state of being

[iron gorge]

sig may have personified it tho

[gentle shuttle]

the iris can be all encompassing as the collective consciousness of the afterlife/enlightened individuals

[limpid agate]

Its not.

[past copper]

You’re basically saying because of a voice line from a guy who’s brain isn’t completely there that the Iris is a person. But it’s not

[gentle shuttle]

yall are no fun jesus christ

have some imagination

[peak escarp]

Simga saying he met the Iris is like saying you've met inner peace

[gentle shuttle]

its fun to speculate

[past copper]

You want fun go to General

[limpid agate]

It is fun to speculate. It is not fun to spew random baseless theories and ignore criticism

[gentle shuttle]

sigma definitely does not have inner peace tho

[gentle shuttle]

im not ignoring it?

[noble pendant]

Sigma confuses everyone he interacts with, Zen is no exception

Hes babbling

[noble pendant]

Trueee

[past copper]

Sigma isn’t there. The lights are on but nobody is home

[limpid agate]

They're not saying Sigma has inner peace

They're saying that saying you met the Iris is like saying you have met Inner Peace

You cannot meet Inner Peace

Because Inner Peace isn't something you meet

Its a state of being

[past copper]

Or rather, the lights are flicking off and on with nobody there

[noble pendant]

Doesn't he work as a scientist?

[limpid agate]

Yes

[noble pendant]

In an off-site labority

So he must provide scientific value right?

[limpid agate]

Yes

[gentle shuttle]

sigma has a higher understanding of the universe but doesnt understand how to explain it. what he says doesnt make sense on the surface but there is some meaning behind it

[noble pendant]

So then he cant be completely crazy

[limpid agate]

And if not, he is a powerful weapon too

You can be completely crazy while still providing scientific value

Just look at Junkrat

[peak escarp]

it's possible that the Null Sector Puller - a unit that draws you in with a tractor beam - utilizes Sigma's gravitic research

[past copper]

His research was probably destroyed in his accident. Hence why Talon wanted him. To get it from the source, but with his mind scattered gaining it would be difficult. That would probably be his value to them

[noble pendant]

If you replace "Sigma" with "Zen" I would understand. But Sigmas voicelines are a mess and he does contradict himself a lot

[gentle shuttle]

what are the contradictions? because i actually dont play him a lot, i havent heard a lot of the voice linesz

[mossy hamlet]

leaked sig/Winston interaction
“Does anyone wanna hear my favorite joke about the periodic table?”
“smig,”
“Uhh….what?”
“sigma”

[gentle shuttle]

if "ascension" or "enlightenment" is equivalent to understanding the universe, sigma basically did ascension any% speedrun on accident, got the complete understanding of the universe dumped into his brain, and because he had not learned measures of control from the shambali, he couldnt comprehend it all at once imo

[mossy hamlet]

he broke

sigma brain patchnotes finna look crazy

[limpid agate]

And youre basing this off of... What

Because it sounds like you are piling ideas upon ideas off one unreliable voice interaction

[shadow marsh]

At the end of the day Sigma is beyond saving

[limpid agate]

And literally nothing else

Thats not a useful root for speculation

[gentle shuttle]

and the iris can be both a state of being and a metaphysical being, theoretically, because of how little we know

[gentle shuttle]

mmm yes a general knowledge of sigma and zen

[noble pendant]

I wouldn't say so, his voiceline for litterally just picking him is "Why search for answers when you dont know the question" he is questioning everything all the time and always looks for ways to call something an experiment or hypothesis

So how can he know the answer if he's always questioning

[gentle shuttle]

is he talking about himself here, or is he pointing out this fallacy in others?

also ive already established this is just conjecture, i just think its fun to speculate about a topic like this. idk why but i keep thinking about evangelion and dune when i think about the iris

[noble pendant]

Hes gotta be on about himself because he always questions everything

His mind is completely broken and it shows in how he talks about stuff

[gentle shuttle]

remember that he has seen the totality of the universe and is struggling to comprehend it with a human mind, so he cant really make sense of it

[noble pendant]

?

He was exposed to a black hole

That doesn't equate to seeing the entire universe

[peak escarp]

you're acting like he saw the Matrix code or something

[mossy hamlet]

well his line is “why seek answers when we do not know the question”
so he might question so much as a response to the very goal-based answer approach that society has (idk)

[gentle shuttle]

yeah its definitely a winston sized leap, youre right

[iron gorge]

https://imgur.com/a/Y4qDFha

timeline update

[past copper]

I feel like your grasping at straws to come up with an answer to a voice line that honestly is meant only to insult or confuse another hero

[gentle shuttle]

sig just has potential man

like not only world ending potential with the power to control gravity

[iron gorge]

any opinions or mistakes?

[gentle shuttle]

but like

story potential

[gentle shuttle]

i really like this because i wanted a list of ow novels anyway

frankly i did not know they existed

[iron gorge]

https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/media/

these are all the novels and comics

i think u need to pay for the deadlock one

[peak escarp]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BFYjC78shFuhpu4Fm0l99qKQznIc7lPouQaikD5YvkY/edit?usp=sharing

here's my database of all the lore sources

[iron gorge]

damn

[peak escarp]

let me know if any links are broken

[gentle shuttle]

tyty

[mossy hamlet]

thinking about it further

idk if it would actually go in the same way at all

because zenyatta floats and that’s what sigma commented on

whereas ramattra does not as far as I’ve seen

so it might start with sigma asking ramattra about something and ramattra kind of just sitting there and not speaking

or ramattra might comment on how sigma mirrors the myth of Icarus

and sigma gets caught on the Icarus bit talking about other Greek myths (maybe one that could parallel ramattra?)

[iron gorge]

ram is based on shiva i believe

[past copper]

If you say so, but Buddhism and Hinduism aren’t exactly the same so that doesn’t seem too likely

[iron gorge]

Just assuming things here, but his omnic form resembles Shiva and his nemesis mode resembles Vishnu

also his 8-pin hairstyle also looks like Shiva's, and both have staffs

[mossy hamlet]

fair

[gentle shuttle]

question

would yall consider zenyatta to be mentally unwell

or is he actually mentally superior