#Make major race transformations part of faction creation -> Better role playing & unique factions

161 messages Β· Page 1 of 1 (latest)

cloud pier
#

From how I see it, major race transformations shoud not be tied to tomes and research, but be part of the character creation.
Here is why:

  • If I want to play a Deamon Lord or Angel or whatever, I can not srart as such, but must wait until the late game
  • Roleplaying would benefit a lot from choosing the form right from the start
  • Each major transformation should have benefits and downsides, so that vanilla would become a viable pick, too

Aside from culture and race, I would add a "form" option, which defines the transformations.
That way, a form can be selected right from the start.
An other benefit will be, that a transformation is not tied to a specific affinity, so more can be added later.

I know there is a mod which does that, but I think it is somthing which needs to be reworked in the base game, as it would improve multiple aspects:

  • Transformations are an opition and not something that is always better than not choosing one
  • Role playing will be improved, as it allows for customization right from the beginning
  • It would make factions/leaders less generic, as the transformation is part of the starting race

There might be some events or choices later in the game where neutral factions still have the option to transform.

What do you think about that idea?
In my opinion the game would greatly benefit from it.

dark condor
#

I like the concept, but it requires a heavy amount of rebalancing for all the bonuses it may grant you and in the long run it might not be a viable choice (units too pricey for early game).

I guess a solution would be adding another "slot" in faction creation, let's call it "planetouched" for the sake of argument.

In this slot, you could either put a great transformation or just being "normal" which comes with some buffs (which could be an upkeep and price discount and some other stuff that should enhance versatility).

#

In the end the optimal solution would be to get to the great transformation the old fashioned way, but if you really want you could switch this early game bonus for some late game versatility and cost reduction

#

Or enhance the "pantheon" aspect and let this "advanced start" to be available only to leaders in your pantheon (which realistically you should have already transformed at least once in game).

But this "advanced start" would be similar to what I said earlier, balanced out by being less cost effective than a regular godir (and forcing it only to wizard kings characters? Maybe treating as a separate kind of leader from regular champion and wizard king?)

fiery inlet
#

Or it could be a trait, give more points while it costs 2 or 3 or make one take negative traits to have enough to pick up transform

cloud pier
cloud pier
cloud pier
#

To bring this further, probably all the transformations should go into the faction creation.
Choose one major and a few minor.
That would instantly allow for a ton of unique factions and bring back much of the old unique factions

#

Tomes hould be limited to spells and enchantments

#

My point is,
"Why hide transformations, which make factions unique deep down in the tech tree and not let people make that choice while creating the factions?"

#

Combine that with the fact, that the few culture units become less relevant in the end game and summoned T4/5 units are not affected by the transformations.

spare breach
#

I mean I think some of them could probably be paired down to work like this? It'd definitely be tricky to balance stuff like flying though. And then Angelic and Demonkin would be identical if you stripped the OP bonuses like frenzy out :/ Not to mention stuff like free faithful would make all the order tomes that give that bonus worthless. Adding some kind of cosmetic twist or type bonus to your form would be super cool though - so maybe they just need lesser versions of your capstone forms?

cloud pier
#

Transformations could get their own little tech tree in which they could unlock the op stuff later

#

I would mot mind, if the initial choices would determine your tech tree

#

Make one for cultures and one for transsformations

#

And keep tomes to spells and enchantments and special units

spare breach
#

I mean, that could be kinda cool to go for a kinda 'racial tech tree'. And I guess the transformations would pair together more consistently as well.

cloud pier
#

The tome system alone is not a great tech tree

spare breach
#

The game would still need a lot of rebalancing though. Like, Necromancy is kinda useless without Wightborn, so separating that from the tomes would make that whole line of tomes a trap option for a lot of players

#

Although I suppose they're planning on reworking necromancy anyway, and they could always just add a unit enchantment that allows your units to benefit from stuff as if they were undead

cloud pier
#

In my opinion reworking all those things is worth it and in the end probably more efficient than keeping the dead end of everything feeling pretty generic

#

I do not know how long the game will stay popular if nothing changes

cloud pier
spare breach
pseudo spire
#

I was looking for a similar thread. I'm on Askarus side.
I would really enjoy picking the transformation before the game starts, like my enemies in den campaign missions. It gives much more flavor to my faction.

I was thinking like a aow planetfall system.
Major transformations cost more than minor.
Maybe some debuff choices, if the player wants to mix some more transformation.

For example, my Illidari faction needs Demonkin and Reveler's heart, if I remember right. Demon wings/horns and goaty legs πŸ™‚ for the Illidan imposters.

cloud pier
#

I think transformations should add positive and negative effects, so that they rather alter the playstyle instead of straight buffing it

cloud pier
#

Now go ahead and build your unique factions

spare breach
# cloud pier I think transformations should add positive and negative effects, so that they r...

Eh, drawbacks sound cool on paper but they're almost always a mistake. People just find dumb ways for the penalties to be irrelevant, and feel like they have to do builds that don't engage with several of the game's systems - like how almost every Stellaris race is weak and ugly, since the diplomacy system is kinda unreliable anyway and you can just use robots to invade planets. It turns what should be something creative into something really gamey.

cloud pier
spare breach
cloud pier
#

Maybe let's not call them drawbacks, but rather "shifting powers" from one to an other. No tranaformation would be pretty balanced

nimble epoch
#

I'd rather it be a soc trait "Historically Transformed" or somesuch, and/or for the pantheon to be expanded more like planetfall's empire mode to allow factions on a map to start with more of their character's signature stuff

woeful tartan
#

I never played Planetfall much, but if I know it correctly you would have actual boni through the things you suggest, which is not how I personally would want it to be, since that kind of forces you to play with those boni in MP

gaunt sandal
#

I actually think a realm trait allowing players to select some transformations would be interesting. I think the game is fine without starting with transformations but for how cool it would be to start with one or a few for role play, thematic or whatever reason, I think a realm trait might be the way to go. If not that though, maybe it could be a societal or race trait to really bring it into the customization (as the previous solution would probably delegate the transformation as an in game choice)

woeful tartan
#

or race trait

cloud pier
#

Race trait sounds like a good idea

#

The more difficult part would be to still allow transformations later on, as some might luke that, too.

#

Still, I would prefer not being able to stack any amount of transformations during the game.

#

I'd rather select them at the start

#

Only enchantments should be part of the in-game mechanics which alter the race

woeful tartan
#

Hmm, bot doesn't allow what I typed.

#

to sum up;
sb else had the idea of creating a tech-tree around transformation

#

so you couldn't transform your icy ppl into fire demons

#

but still have available transformations in the game

#

Hmm, that worked

cloud pier
#

Yeah, I would like to see more tree-like tach trees πŸ˜‰

#

Regarding transformations:
Yeah, that makes sense.

#

Still, I think we should provide the player the option to start as angels/deamons/tree folk/whatever instead of waiting hald of the game to become it

woeful tartan
#

also balance wise, it's hard to balance a race that's immune to ice, but at the same time immune to burning...
Not fun to play against

woeful tartan
#

but kinda balance it

#

so you don't HAVE to go for it

#

as it is now, if you don't choose to change your race you are at a big disadvantage

cloud pier
#

So a tech tree BEFORE the game actually starts?

woeful tartan
#

ye

cloud pier
#

Nice

#

I support that

woeful tartan
#

like, you choose the starting thing where you choose your race things

#

and then you get the tech tree in game

cloud pier
#

VERY good idea

#

I ike that

woeful tartan
#

that way you could also make it so your flying demons don't ride mounts...
That looks always so silly

cloud pier
#

Maybe allow the player to get multiple weaker ones of different branches, but the real strong ones which define the transformation should be mutual exclusive

woeful tartan
#

like, give transformation points and some are cheaper and some more expensive?

cloud pier
#

Yes

woeful tartan
#

Hmm, that's kinda hard to balance tho again. That might force you to choose transformations so you ain't at a disadvantage.

cloud pier
#

You have XX points to spend on the tree.
Higher ones are more expensive.
Some transformations are mutually exclusive by nature, no matter the points spent

woeful tartan
#

I just don't like being forced to transform my people

#

and that might lead to the forcing

#

since it's hard to balance out like that

cloud pier
#

No transformations is just a good alrounder

woeful tartan
#

yeah, but if you imply some are stronger, that means they aren't completely balanced

#

which means you have to take them

cloud pier
#

How would you have done it instead?

#

If there is a tree of transformations, isn't that the same?

woeful tartan
#

just choose one at the start, though that kind of limits you

#

still that's way ezyer to balance

cloud pier
woeful tartan
#

like, you can balance having wings and being an angel, it's more about the look ain't it?

#

bot...

cloud pier
#

Does that solve the minor transformation stacking in game?

woeful tartan
#

it would

#

since you would have a tech tree and balance all those transformations out, so the player can choose them to his playstyle, a bit like in AoW3

#

tho you'd have to balance it

#

dunno how difficult that task is

cloud pier
#

Oh, you would start with the look and go through the tech tree in game?

woeful tartan
#

basically

cloud pier
#

But what if you do not select a transformation?

#

Is there a tree for default?

woeful tartan
#

I would say so

#

imo the first transformation gives you just a few resistances and maybe flying if you take angel/demon

#

that way it'd be pretty ez to balance

#

now give the rest in game

#

so the players without transformation can choose it too

#

like spawnkin or the animal kin

cloud pier
#

Maybe a player without transformation can research all trees, but not the more powerful ones

#

Like jack of all traits

woeful tartan
woeful tartan
#

and ofcourse, if possible to programm allow the player to choose which transformations he wants to see, so you don't have rocky ice ppl with gold and animal skin...

cloud pier
#

I mean we can start as powerful dragon lords, so it would not hurt too much if we can also start with a bit of a buff because we limit ourself by choosing a transformation/tech tree during faction creation

woeful tartan
#

ice ppl weak to fire, fire ppl weak to ice

cloud pier
woeful tartan
#

yeah

#

agreed

cloud pier
#

So that would solve the problem of stacking looks

woeful tartan
#

that way you could also play a folk with only smaller transformations which looks like it was from the beginning

cloud pier
woeful tartan
cloud pier
#

Maybe add a few medium strong ones, which do not alter too much.
The lower ones should really be buffs and stuff associated to that transformation

cloud pier
#

More options never hurt πŸ˜‰

#

So now comes the big questions:
How do we make the devs aware of this and how do we make them to implement this πŸ˜‰

#

2 random people on the Internet agree with each other, so the solution is good πŸ˜‚

woeful tartan
#

don't find the other threat tho

cloud pier
#

Oh, there was an other one?
Was is Reddit or Paradox forum?

#

Maybe I should open a threat on the forums

woeful tartan
#

here

#

i never entered reddit

#

and i never will

#

I really can't find the threat... Maybe it was deleted

dim elm
cloud pier
#

Tomes in my opinion should be

  • units
  • enchantments
  • spells
  • buildings
#

Transformations should be something completely different

#

You can stack enchantments all you want, not transformations

dim elm
#

Right. I don't care to much what the method of acquisition for transformations is. Just for it to be possible to wait to transform when you're at MAXIMUM POWA!

cloud pier
#

I would not mind to modify the proposed tech tree solution in a way that

  • A neutral starter can research any tree
  • If a neutral starter wants to transform, only the lowest tier of "off transformatino" at max may be researched
  • If a certain level of transformation for one tree branch is reached, all the other branches become locked and it gets treated like one who already started with a transformation
#

That would neuther put the neutral nor the transformed starters at a disadvantage

dim elm
#

Yeah that sounds good

cloud pier
#

The transformed starter is probably a bit stronger early game, but the neutral one has the flexibility to first go multi color.
Later when choosing to transform, some of the stronger off color biffs might disappear in favor of the transformatin to happen

#

I like that concept

#

that would allow more transformations to be added which are not tied to tomes/affinities

#

It keeps the intended flexibility and still allows to make more istinctive factions right from the start

#

Downside is, that it probbly requires a lot of work to implement

#

Especially balancing and reworking of concepts

dim elm
#

Yeah. I totally agree it's weird you can't choose transformations that you want your society to be closely associated with until tier 3 and beyond

#

Yeah. Probably after all this DLC+ 6 months for something like that. Or one helluva mod

cloud pier
#

Mostly Tier 4.
And even then, you need to research the specific one which contains the transformation

dim elm
#

Yeah. You don't always want the other stuff in the tome with the transformation

cloud pier
#

Transformations are one of the big things which allow for truly unique looking/designed factions.
Still, they are pushed to pretty much late mid game.

dim elm
#

I didn't mean to imply that was a preference, just an alternative if the devs don't

#

One of those times that I typed what I was thinking while disregarding it's value in a public forum

cloud pier
#

I see. Still, I like the idea of allowing in game transformations.

spare breach
#

Yeah, they're in kind of a weird space where researching transformations is an incredibly cool feature - but also they've kinda committed to Stellaris style custom races, and people want weird starting traits to match that, like a hive mind or race of angelic liberators.

I guess maybe a possible compromise could be having tech trees that you let you swap transformatino path based on tomes? Like in Stellaris how you can start as a robotic race OR ascend an organic race into being robots via the tech tree. And then obviously unlocking additional 'angelic' powers like flight on top of that.

Or maybe they could let you pick a major transformation as a body trait (or a nerfed version), that then gives you some kind of extra bonus when you later research that transformation.

fierce shard
cloud pier
#

BTW, I too would love to see the game playing better with massive maps and 12+ players πŸ˜‰

fierce shard
#

They just didn't include it in the base game because of the requirements of that mod