Will Chaos be inherently evil or just... chaotic?

[safe karma]

A lot of the attributes of chaos we have seen are pretty evil such as cannibalistic but similar to how the bad side of order seems to be getting more explored (religious zealotry and imperialism) I think it would be cool to see some nonevil forms of chaos explored such as more free/egalitarian societies

[feral sundial]

i agree that would be cool

[hallow star]

Chaos definitely gives you the tools to be a warmongering destroyer, but that doesn't mean you necessarily have to use them in a wicked way.

It's got a neutral society trait even in the form of Swarmer

[glad trellis]

Well, Order is not inherently good, so...

[vestal fiber]

From what we’ve seen, I doubt Chaos or Shadow will be forced to go an evil direction, even if they do make it much easier to play out “fantasy dark lord” tropes.

[glad trellis]

make yourself look like a creepy dark lord who rules over a cannibal dark culture, but you are actually a champion of good seeking to vassalize and protect your world against the wizard kings

[surreal glacier]

the chaos tomes known so far are: Pyromancy, Horde, Mayhem, Revelry and Devastation:
So no clear evil bend yet but two that emphatize destruction.

[past quiver]

Chaos and order in AoW traditionaly are 2 extremes that no sane person would go to.

[humble torrent]

As someone who loves the Chaotic Good alignment in TTRPGs, I’m hoping they move away from equating Order with Good and Chaos with Evil. Even going so far as to give Order evil traits and Chaos good ones.

Like Revelry makes sense as a neutral-aligned Chaos option, revelry can be taken a lot of different ways after all. But Order’s Imperialism tome should be evil aligned imo. Even in the description it’s about subjugating other races and cultures, that’s not really “Neutral” in the way Revelry is

[safe karma]

https://tenor.com/view/i-couldnt-agree-more-john-krasinski-saturday-night-live-youre-absolutely-correct-thats-right-gif-20212746

[surreal glacier]

Especially as Chaotic (affinity) Good (alignment) is a way to play

[native sigil]

The question is what definition of good/evil you use. Imperialism often has the arguement that it is for the betterment of the subjugated culture. This wouldn't be evil if your definition of evil is that of selfishness and egoism. But many people would morally still agree that a supremacist lord belittling other cultures as unworthy and enforces their culture over them is evil

I think it is ok as a neutral trait so its not conflicting with the other Order traits

[past quiver]

That arguement tries to divert from the question, but in the end applying force to get what you want from someone else is evil, period.

[native sigil]

I have no problem with that view, but if people want a hard separation of order/chaos to good/evil, I would ask for a definition that easily allows this

[vestal fiber]

I think it’s more like it takes a very specific moral stance to believe that they’re intrinsically linked.

[jolly hull]

They should have chosen a different term. Imperialism is a loaded term and rightly so.

[distant meteor]

That argument is basically just propaganda.

[native sigil]

My point is to say without a definition of good and evil you can argue anything to be good/evil

worlds like pathfinder/dnd have beings that physically embody good and evil and your relation to them governs whether you are good or evil, regardless of your actual beliefs

that means you can much more plainly state what is good and evil

[feral sundial]

You have correctly identified that bad faith or ignorant/naive arguments can be made by twisting moral concepts (i.e. any justification for imperialism)

The problem with imperialism being called "good" isn't that subjugating people for their own benefit can be argued as a good thing to do. The problem is that practically speaking that argument is simply a lie.

And of course that subjugating a people and intentionally creating a massive power imbalance is inherently selfish no matter how much you pinky swear that you'll play nice with your power

[surreal glacier]

There is a difference between cosmic alignment and your ehtical outlook, that tends to get lost in D&D alignment discussions.
Similarly how in such a setting lawful and chaotic extremes can be stasis and entrophy.

[proper lily]

Yes order’s Imperialism tome should be evil aligned

Order in general seems to be shown as good in the game which is not right

[vestal fiber]

I thought it was shown as being generally pretty vicious?

[pure pasture]

I really dislike such black and white statements. Some cultures and people are bad in the eyes of others. Some cultures permit slavery and if another culture attacks them to end it then what? The aggressor is trying to end oppression, but likely will end up destabilizing the region if they just tip toe about it. The other is defending their cultures norm from foreigners calling them savages?

You're saying using force to subject the slaver culture for its own benefit is inherently evil. I'm not saying imperialism is good. I'm just saying it's not explicitly evil. It is 'orderly'

[feral sundial]

?????????? lmao

you sure have invented a scenario that assumes good intentions on the part of the imperialists

[pure pasture]

There are good and bad actors on every side of things

[feral sundial]

which historical event do you have in mind

[feral sundial]

excellent example of this btw

[pure pasture]

That'd derail the thread entirely if we get into the weeds of that. Besides, your mind is clearly set.

[feral sundial]

uh huh

[proper lily]

gameplay wise doesnt, for example cannibalism give you negative aligment, imperialism should also give you negative aligment for example or maeby just make other cultures like you less

[vestal fiber]

It is honestly a pretty ridiculous stretch to suggest that imperialism isn’t intrinsically evil, unless you’re deep enough into moral nihilism that you consider any question of right and wrong to be nonsense.

[feral sundial]

it's inventing a hypothetical "yes, this time the imperialists really will be bringing this vile and barbaric culture into real civilization!" scenario and then running away the moment they're asked "when did this happen"

[vestal fiber]

Looks like I misremembered, I thought the Tome of Subjugation had shown some negative alignment modifiers. Though at least the language and iconography of the time makes it pretty clear it isn’t being presented as something “neutral.”

[feral sundial]

and thus the myth of imperialism spreads

[vestal fiber]

“Good people on both sides” is a particularly unconvincing argument in light of… the past century or so of global politics, frankly.

[feral sundial]

"good people on both sides" is true, in a "not all german soldiers were supporters of the nazi party in ww2 and it really sucks that so many people had to die due to being swayed by propaganda or circumstance forcing them into combat. you shouldn't feel good about killing people" way

[proper lily]

sorry, there was a confusion, one thing is the society trait imperialists and other thing is the tome of subjugation, the converstion is about the imperialist trait

[vestal fiber]

Oh, my bad!

[proper lily]

no ,i got it wrong at the begining too, so it was my bad

None of the tomes gives negative aligment or anything like that gameplay wise maeby they dont want to say magic is bad by itself but how you use it , but in the society traits , things like cannibalism give you negative aligment and so imperialist trait should also give you negative aligment or maeby just make everyone dislike you no mather their aligment

[surreal glacier]

Could be that the alignment modifiers are tied to the actions themselves, instead of the tomes directly.
So you don't get evil points for using Tyrant Knights and casting Intiomidating Aura on them, but performing a subjugating raid gets your dark red points.

Frankly all player-leaders are invading outsiders colonizing the new lands fromt he basic setup it appears.
So depending on moral outlook they're all evil, just sometimes nicer about it.

[glad trellis]

yeah most players are technically taking the imperialist approach even if they do not explicitly nab the society trait and/or tome

[vestal fiber]

Unfortunately a lot of imperialist ideas are baked pretty deeply into the genre as a whole, enough that it’s hard to really untangle them from 4x games in general.

[feral sundial]

correct. making a non-imperialist 4x would involve creating a pretty specific scenario

people like painting maps one color. despite being imperialist psychology it's a video game so w/e

but like if we're gonna talk about the morality of imperialism let's not kid ourselves on the reality of that scenario

[surreal glacier]

The only way to remove that factor would be to go completely colony builder and have an empty map.
Alternatively the diplomatic route is technically more federal/mutual benefit/equal standing, if we ignore the giant caveats of player control and Godir leaders.

[feral sundial]

you could make a 4x where you can not eXpand or eXterminate i guess

[safe karma]

Justifying imperialism as not evil because trust me bros this time we are actually civilizing the evil barbarians makes imperialism not being evil worse because it shows how it justifies toxic narratives

[past quiver]

I don't get why the discussion shifted to what it seems like Order = Good

When if you are referencing alignment I'd equate Order with Lawful

[humble torrent]

Yeah, you can't really get away from the Imperialism baked into the 4x genre as a whole.

So while in the meta-sense its all Imperialism, for the sake of mechanical and roleplaying purposes if "Imperialism" is being made its own particular trait then it should, imo, probably be what bears the weight of imperialism. Complete with an evil-alignment.

Plus it allows for a better distinction better painting the map via conquering armies and the kindlier forms of gameplay like Diplomacy & Alliances, Vassalage, or even something akin to AoW:3's Torchbearers-style Liberation.

[frozen shard]

I wouldn't associate chaos with "free/egalitarian societies", more with resistance against orderly but totalitarian societies. Chaos itself isn't a great basis for any society, good or evil, in the first place.