#will customization lead to saminess?

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proud nest
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This has been confirmed by the devs on the forums

raven pebble
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Yes, I pulled the reality of market forces (informed by the history of what happens when a gaming company acquires another) out of my ass

fossil berry
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I wasn't talking about "market forces", though, I was talking about Triumph in specific.

raven pebble
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Seeing as how PF showed quite a bit of Paradox influence along with the theme of this very thread being suspiciously Paradox-esque, it's fair to say they have a say in the matter and do influence development

proud nest
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Dude a lot of us a speculating in this thread, as it should be since the game was just announced.

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Can't you just admit that you're speculating as well?

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Don't act like you have such massive knowledge about the gaming market forces etc 😆

raven pebble
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Oh, but I do have that

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It doesn't take a genius to see a pattern

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You can be sure that no design decision is being made without the express permission of Paradox ;d

fossil berry
# raven pebble It doesn't take a genius to see a pattern

Problem with this is that stupid people see a lot of patterns regardless of whether they're real or not.
It doesn't take a genius to come up with flat-earth theory, and in fact, is counterproductive.

I'd say that in this case, you're definitely no genius.

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I'm trusting the actual developers on a few beers a lot more than I do you.

sonic trellis
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Even without the beers, I expect the devs themselves would remain a more reliable source

raven pebble
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Oh, but of course, they will definitely admit to Paradox's meddling while they are still in their employ

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Don't be so naive

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You can bet that Paradox isn't letting them run wild with Paradox's money

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They might be indiscriminately allowing everything Triumph comes up with, but that's extremely doubtful

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And if it is true, then Triumph has made one of the best deals in history

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I would know, I'm an employer as well

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But you do you ;d

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oh and they would definitely tell their drinking buddy who announces it publicly on the internet all about their secrets and business relations

fossil berry
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Triump was self-owned. They could have just not joined if they hadn't wanted to. I don't know what contract they made, but I'm pretty sure it has a few provisions.

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And if not? They could have just all resigned their jobs, started a new company, and make a new IP. They haven't.

raven pebble
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working for Paradox is safer I'd wager

fossil berry
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Primary reason they joined up was because Paradox has an actual marketing department.

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So it's true that PR languages sounds pretty Paradox-y.

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But no, there's enough people that'd follow the devs over the names.

raven pebble
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also, there's another issue

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if Steamspy is to be believed (and it is), PF sold anywhere from 50% to a whopping 90% less copies than AoW3

silver crest
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haha steamspy

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lots of issues there :V

raven pebble
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yeah, but the ranges it gives are so vague that they are more than likely correct in some way ;d

silver crest
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for one, steamspy stopped being reliable before planetfall was released
other issue, age of wonders was given away free to keep not once, but twice, those count as "sales" for steamspy, or any other tracker

fossil berry
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No, that doesn't mean that at all.

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Also, other platforms? Does it count those?

silver crest
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nah, as a developer, trust me, steam spy doesnt mean anything

raven pebble
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is there a more reliable source?

silver crest
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not really, you cant know these things unless devs spill numbres themselves

raven pebble
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then that's all we have ;d

silver crest
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steam inventory is private for a few years now, any numbers you see are not reliable

raven pebble
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not reliable how?

fossil berry
raven pebble
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at all and it's literally random oooor?

silver crest
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its grossly inflated or grossly underrepresentative :V

fossil berry
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It might as well be random.

raven pebble
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yeah, that's what I think as well

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I mean that's how I think it functions

silver crest
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so aow3 is grossly inflated because of all the giveaways and it being released before the private steam inventory

raven pebble
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it has to give some idea, however vague, of the numbers, though?

fossil berry
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No?

silver crest
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not from my experience

fossil berry
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It'll have counted all AoW3 from before inventories went private, but only a small subset of the PF sales afterwards.

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You'd get a more accurate view from checking whatever public income records of the studio you can find.

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Because that might get you the correct amount of zeros.

raven pebble
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I can't find a source that says it's completely unreliable

silver crest
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hello

fossil berry
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You're looking for the wrong thing.

You should be looking for a source that says it's reliable.

raven pebble
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I am

fossil berry
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Random internet statistics are wrong until proven otherwise.

raven pebble
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developers have said it's accurate with an error margin of about 10%

fossil berry
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Who and when?

silver crest
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thats wrong lol

raven pebble
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that's from the wikipedia article

fossil berry
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If it's wikipedia, it should have a source, right?

raven pebble
fossil berry
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Wikipedia isn't a source, it's a list of sources and a summary

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Updated: Feb 14, 2017

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Therefore, outdated at best.

raven pebble
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there is no mention of it stopping being reliable

silver crest
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after 2018

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it stopped being reliable

fossil berry
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Well, Tibbles just said, including a very good reason why.

raven pebble
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everywhere I look, it says it's reliable for games with more than 10k copies sold

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here's a reddit thread from last year

fossil berry
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It uses Steam’s publically available player data to estimate owner numbers, and thus is used to figure out how many copies a game may have sold.
This even directly says accuracy depends on what Tibbles just explained has chanced.

fossil berry
raven pebble
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Tibbles isn't a source as well ;d

fossil berry
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And even there 2 out fo 3 comments say it's useless.

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Tibbles is, though. Works in the industry.

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Which isn't something you can verify about that 3rd reddit commenter.

raven pebble
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everywhere I look, there is no mention of it being completely unreliable

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it depends on what you view as "useful"

fossil berry
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That very reddit threat you linked had 2 people saying it was completely unreliable?

raven pebble
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yeah, the ranges are so big you can't really get an accurate number

fossil berry
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...it doesn't even say that.

raven pebble
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Even when the numbers are within range, the given range is so big that the usability of numbers is questionable. For example, for one of my games it shows a range between 20000 and 50000 owners. The exact number is 23000, so it is within range. However, if you take the mid point of 35000, it's off by 12000, which is 52% of the actual owner number.

fossil berry
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Do you even read the sources you copy/paste here?

raven pebble
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this is the source I linked ;d

fossil berry
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Because so far all of them support the opposite of your position.

raven pebble
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no?

fossil berry
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You posted 2 links. Both of them explain why you're wrong.

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The first says that steamspy relies on public profiles, while they're private now and have been since before PF release.

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The second is a reddit threat with a whopping 6 votes, and 3 comments - 2 of which say it's useless.

raven pebble
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2 of which are useless as comments

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the important one is the one with actual numbers

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that says the range is accurate

fossil berry
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...no? The important ones explain why numbers are meaningless.

raven pebble
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I don't want the numbers, I want the ranges

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and the one important comment says they are accurate

fossil berry
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But the only reason you consider that comment "important" is because it agrees with you.
Not out of any logic.

silver crest
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wow thats some nice bias haha

raven pebble
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...it's because it provides actual numbers

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you can write whatever you want on the internet ;d

fossil berry
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which are meaningless.

raven pebble
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why are they meaningless?

fossil berry
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You can write whatever meaningless numbers as well.

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Why do the numbers suddenly magically have meaning?

raven pebble
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that means you can't believe anything

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which makes this exercise pointless

fossil berry
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Which is a lot better than only believing what's convenient for you.

silver crest
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89 percent of statistics on the internet are made up

raven pebble
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and both positions equally valid

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i.e. there's no reliable source at all anywhere ;d

fossil berry
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Positions are valid because logic.

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Do you like, acknowledge the existence of logic?

raven pebble
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logic relies on having some sort of concrete premises

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we have no concrete premises because we have no reliable sources about any of them

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if you are to be believed ;d

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even in inductive arguments, we still need something

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all premises are unprovable

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i.e. pointless exercise

fossil berry
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Deduction is combining facts to get new facts, and is the cornerstone of logic.
For example, consider the following facts:

  • Alice is riding a horse
  • Horses are animals
    Then we can deduce:
  • Alice is riding an animal.

Now consider the other following facts:

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No, there's verifyable facts.

raven pebble
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and I can immediately produce another article

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that says Steamspy is still reliable

fossil berry
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...the very title says steamspy is not all that accurate.

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Also, you fundamentally misunderstand logic if you think that finding a random article that supports your point proves it.

I could post a hundred articles explaining why the earth is flat, but that doesn't make it so.

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If you want to argue that steamspy is accurate, you'll have to show it uses a different way than checking public inventories.

raven pebble
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that's ...not how any of this works

fossil berry
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That's literally how all of this works.

raven pebble
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The old Steam Spy estimated a PC game’s sales by sweeping publicly viewable Steam profiles and taking stock of their game collections. That technique was blocked in early April when Steam’s architects at Valve made it so that users’ profiles no longer automatically show which games players own. The new version of Steam Spy will get around that by embracing machine learning to predict sales based on “coincidental data.”

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In a blog post, Galyonkin explained that he’s in the process of switching Steam Spy over to a model rooted in machine learning. He confessed, however, that despite a wealth of data to feed his algorithm, it’s “not very accurate” at this point.

“I have the data for around 70 games from different developers, and for 90% of them, the new Steam Spy is within 10% margin of error,” he wrote, pointing out that the site’s estimate for Frostpunk (252,000 units sold) was basically on the money (250,000 units sold). “But I also saw some crazy outliers, where the difference between the estimates and the real data could be fivefold.”

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i.e. "not very accurate" in the sense that it can't give us exact numbers anymore

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but the ranges are ok, with some outliers

fossil berry
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So it's a useful tool to figure out averages, but can never support statements about individual games.

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Got it. Clear.

raven pebble
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averages of what?

fossil berry
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Averages of total games sold, or similar.

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But I also saw some crazy outliers, where the difference between the estimates and the real data could be fivefold.
This shows that you can never make concrete statements about individual games.

raven pebble
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you know this means I can be 100% correct about PF, right?

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and I probably am ;d

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the post-release cycle also supports my argument that PF sold much less copies

fossil berry
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So your "PF sold 50% to 90% of what 3 sold", and accounting for this statement, heads all the way to "PF sold 2% to 2250% of AoW3 sales"

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Which isn't a useful statement to make.

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And even if Steamspy was 100% accurate, there's also other sites, like GOG, that don't give you a Steam Key or anything.

raven pebble
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GOG has a tiny fraction of Steam's customers

fossil berry
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And you don't know how many of those bought PF.

raven pebble
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there's no way it sold 2 million copies on GOG, but only 500k on Steam

fossil berry
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And reminder that no, 500k is not an accurate number.

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As per the steamspy guy, that means it's somewhere between 100k and 2500k copies.

raven pebble
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he also says most of them are accurate

fossil berry
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Which doesn't mean anything if you look at individual games.

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Because that's how statistics work.

raven pebble
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look at steamcharts then

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Planetfall has almost half the all-time peak players

fossil berry
raven pebble
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which supports steamspy's numbers of around 50% copies

fossil berry
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That's where steamspy's information comes from. Those aren't independent statistics.

raven pebble
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so steamspy does have some concrete information to pull from

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interesting

fossil berry
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I wouldn't call that "concrete", exactly.

raven pebble
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what's wrong with steam charts now? ;d

fossil berry
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The new version of Steam Spy will get around that by embracing machine learning to predict sales based on “coincidental data.”
As your steamspy guy explained, it's coincidental.

raven pebble
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I don't know what that means in this context

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that he uses random data that has nothing to do with anything? ;d

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I doubt it

fossil berry
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That it's data that at best has some correlation with sales, and that the outcome is, drumroll, not reliable.

raven pebble
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but what does not reliable mean in this context

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it can't all be completely random and none of it is real

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I'd say 200k to 500k is an unreliable range to get anything specific out of

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but unreliable can also mean that everything is random and nothing can be trusted

fossil berry
# raven pebble it can't *all* be completely random and none of it is real

coincidental
/kəʊˌɪnsɪˈdɛntl/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: coincidental

1.
resulting from a coincidence; happening by chance.
"any resemblance between their reports is purely coincidental"

happening or existing at the same time.
"it's convenient that his plan is coincidental with the group's closure"

Here, straight from Oxford, as deliered by Google.

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The meaning is that even those number indeed cannot be relied on.

raven pebble
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but in what context lolololo

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cannot be relied to do what?

fossil berry
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In any context.

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Cannot be relied on to be accurate.

raven pebble
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that's wishful thinking probably

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but ok, take steamcharts then

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it's obvious PF sold less if that is to be believed

fossil berry
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Sure, link to where Steamcharts says PF sold less?

raven pebble
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less peak players playing the game should be enough

fossil berry
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...no, it's very much not.

raven pebble
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well, sorry, there is no data from the developers

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so I'll go with what we have available, thank you very much

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so

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since PF sold less

silver crest
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it didnt

raven pebble
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how do you know this?

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if you had information all this time, why didn't you say that lololo

silver crest
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🥲

raven pebble
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oh wait

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aren't you the AI programmer on AoW3?

silver crest
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lol what

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I'm a tech artist

raven pebble
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ah, then that guy had a very similar name ;d

silver crest
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thats my husband, tombles

raven pebble
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ah

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interesting ;d

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then ignore everything I wrote up to this point

silver crest
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done

proud nest
raven pebble
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you can't say I'm not reasonable when proven wrong ¯_(ツ)_/¯

fossil berry
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...

proud nest
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I mean, your view on "proof" is kind of your whole problem

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You need things to be proven wrong, not to be proven right

raven pebble
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don't look a gift horse in the mouth ;d

proud nest
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An idiom with no relevance to the conversation whatsoever

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Thanks

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You throw your "facts" around with no sources and no explanations, and then you doubt absolutely everything everyone else has to say

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Completely unreasonable

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You set extremely strict standards to what us others are saying, yet those same standards don't seem to apply to you

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I'm sorry for the personal attack, but I'm all out of patience.

raven pebble
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ok

low kestrel
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So...that was weird.

proud nest
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Yeah idk the last 100 replies here are a discussion on which sold more, AoW3 or PF

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Safe to say this thread derailed pretty hard

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Which is sad, because we got a pretty nice and enlightening discussion going somewhere in the middle there

raven pebble
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еh, whatever we say in this conversation is pointless in general because the decisions have already been made

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what we want to do is just make disgruntled noises so they change it at one point ;d

fossil berry
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Well, please don't let us waste your time.

proud nest
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Small adjustments can probably be made though, like having an option to only allow standard traits for the forms in multiplayer lobbies

harsh cape
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the point of being a race traditionalist is to try to pressure into post release support

fossil berry
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If you feel there's no point to talking here, please don't feel obligated to participate for our sakes.

proud nest
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Which I think could be good for those who don't like non-standard races

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After all, I don't want to force my weird factions down the traditionalists' throats 😛

raven pebble
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to me, the traits aren't enough to differentiate the races

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we need mechanics and units too

proud nest
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mechanics and units are tied to culture, and are widely different according to the devs

raven pebble
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yeah, but races could also have their own mechanics on top ;d

harsh cape
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in aoW 1-2 every race had some unique non-humanoid units associated with it

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which seem especially unlikely to work in a "for everyone" class based system

proud nest
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The change that's happened is basically that the choice of race has been split into form and culture, and the unique units and mechanics are tied to culture

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So there hasn't been a "loss of uniqueness" like a lot of people are afraid of in this thread. At least that's what I think

low kestrel
proud nest
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Unique units and mechanics tied to both form and culture is a lot to ask, especially balance-wise

fossil berry
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If release looks anything like it appears to be, I'll mod racial differences in myself.

proud nest
low kestrel
proud nest
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So the opponent only has the same units if they picked the same culture

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All the races are available to everone as well in other games, no?

low kestrel
fossil berry
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Yup.

harsh cape
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yes you can absord cities on the map to use other units (although 1-2 discouraged this with rebellion mechanic tied to alignment)

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but also case in point of 3 - absorbed cities could not produce class units (theocrat/etc)

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now every unit is a class unit

low kestrel
# proud nest All the races are available to everone as well in other games, no?

There's a key gameplay aspect here which appears to be missing.

In aow3, picking Orc or whatever opened up a bunch of synergy with a class.

That is now no longer the case.

There is no distinction.

It wouldn't really matter where tou put those differences. You could, for example, make a version of a culture with unique racial flavour, e.g. Orc + Barb have something.

But as it stands Barb is just Barb.

That is why people are upset

raven pebble
proud nest
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Classes have become tomes

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So what you view as "class units" are now "tome units"

low kestrel
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There were several steps to making your faction in aow3, and those steps had impact.

Bow it appears there is only one step realistically.

Just choose your culture.

fossil berry
proud nest
low kestrel
fossil berry
proud nest
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The combination of Orc+Warlord has now become Barbarian+Tome of War for example

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It's literally the same unique interaction with a different wrapping

harsh cape
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if this thread goes long enough more people are going to say Planetfall was better than AoW3 actually for respecting Racial uniquness more

fossil berry
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I might not have played enough Planetfall to say that it's better than 3, but I liked how different races were in there. Really a strong point.

modest cipher
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not to pile on but I want to say re: sales that PF debuted in the top 10 PC games (official NPD data) on release month

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so that's one data point

proud nest
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I agree with you guys that unique attributes are important. I just don't think that the classic concept of "race" needs to be the unique attribute

raven pebble
proud nest
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As long as other attributes bring that uniqueness

low kestrel
# proud nest The combination of Orc+Warlord has now become Barbarian+Tome of War for example

That's making a huge assumption about the variety and impact of tomes.

The essential point is that there were some variation, tied to form, that are now no longer there, anywhere it seems.

It used to be that picking race meant a package of x,y, z and a pre determined look.

Now that package is just the look, and it doesn't appear that the missing x,y, and z has been compensated.

If you look at the last dev diary, the Chaplain and Tyrant Knight appear to be very standalone.

There is no cross there between form+ Tyrant Knight, and no cross between culture + Tyrant Knight.

If that is correct, then that variety, distinction, synergy that was attached to race has been removed and not reattached to anything

modest cipher
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it's been attached to tomes hasn't it?

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(I think we had this convo on Qt3)

low kestrel
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So if you understand the previous system, and compare to the current system, it is perfectly understandable why people may be upset

Edit: how we get from this baseline understanding to demonising people as being pro or anti choice is quote the jump.

modest cipher
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tome of War gives you like 3 or 4 enchantments by the look of it?

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and there's still the form traits

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a default Orc tyrant knight will deal 10% more damage on baseline and 30% more on overwatch or counter

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that can be changed ofc

proud nest
harsh cape
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I've been predicting that Culture only gives you you 4 starting T1 and 2 T2, and ALL Future units come from tomes

low kestrel
proud nest
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We don't know that. We are both speculating here.

low kestrel
modest cipher
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Barbarian tyrant knight will have 20% more crit if you research that

fossil berry
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Currently all the evidence is strongly pointing in the direction of there being no specific culture/tome interactions, though.

modest cipher
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so I think you're dismissing a number of factors here

proud nest
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I'm having a look at the diary now

fossil berry
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For example, consider the Frostlings getting a Frost Tank instead of Flame Tank when Dreadnought.

That'd have to be a tome/tome specific interaction to reach the richness of 3.

proud nest
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I guess you guys are right, there is no mention of culture on the card

low kestrel
modest cipher
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they showed a culture tech in the stream

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that gives your units 20% more crit

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pretty sure sundering blades at least will affect tyrant knight too

image.png
proud nest
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So the problem really isn't so much the lack of mechanics tied to races, but that there are no more unique unit interactions

low kestrel
modest cipher
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if you're going to say the card proves unit variations don't exist you have to say form traits don't affect tyrant knight too

silver crest
modest cipher
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which I'm certain isn't the case

low kestrel
proud nest
low kestrel
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Suppositions based on the available evidence.

We could all be wrong

proud nest
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That is a bit disappointing

modest cipher
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it's not accurate though

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we already know from the initial stream there are modifiers from your picks that will stack on tyrant knight

fossil berry
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There's a large difference between "unique unit interactions" and "Generic buff X affects unit Y".

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This is about the first, not the second.

lucid quail
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It makes more sense for units to be tied to culture rather than a certain race, but there should definitely be more unique unit interactions between cultures, tomes etc.

low kestrel
silver crest
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keep in mind that in the dev diary screenshots there is no background of the map, so its not taking "in-game" e.a. no extra stats

low kestrel
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There'll be stuff here that you can't do without once you've tried it

modest cipher
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that is the whole point of the faction system

low kestrel
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There'll be stuff you think is merely a neutral change

proud nest
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With highly varied unit enchantments, you will probably get the same uniqueness for your units as in AoW3 though

low kestrel
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And There'll be things you dislike

fossil berry
modest cipher
proud nest
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The difference is the uniqueness won't be determined before the game, but during

modest cipher
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"melee units have primal strike"

harsh cape
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I think the main uniqueness will come from combining multiple tomes, and not culture + tome

modest cipher
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the barbarian also has a tech you can research that gives you +20% crit, and there might be more

low kestrel
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In aow3 I thought magic was a bit weak and would have welcomed a rethink of how the entire magic system worked. One spell per turn was a mechanic that came in as a coping mechanic. The system could have been redesigned.

fossil berry
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For instance, I really want my Barbarian Chaplains to be very different from my Dark Chaplains, which are both different from Mystic Chaplains.

low kestrel
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I also missed true flying and a bunch of stuff

fossil berry
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And it doesn't seem like we're getting that.

silver crest
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they probably will be

harsh cape
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it was a relief after having units go from full health to death from cosmic spray in AoW 2 tbh

proud nest
low kestrel
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In PF I disliked that there were no independent cities and you had to use settlers. I hated thsy actually. Because my favourite aow3 games were settlers off.

silver crest
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the screenshot shows the blank state version, like from the ingame tome of wonders

modest cipher
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yeah I think you're assuming too much from that screen BBB

low kestrel
modest cipher
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like your argument also means we have to assume a default orc tyrant knight won't have Ferocious

lucid quail
raven pebble
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the interaction between culture and tomes is that theoretically the spells and units you get from tomes will have different gameplay effects when put into the context of different cultures

low kestrel
modest cipher
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there won't be explicit modifiers for "barbarian chaplain" vs "dark chaplain" but the things barb and dark gives you and your tome choices will make them quite different in practice

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yeah it's a different system. not unit-by-unit. A lot of the enchantments do seem to target specific unit classes though (shield, support, etc)

harsh cape
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so you get an empire upgrade at best to make them different?

proud nest
fossil berry
proud nest
#

So it's not as limiting as it might sound

silver crest
#

society treats can make them different

low kestrel
raven pebble
fossil berry
#

"Apply template X to unit Y" doesn't make units unique

#

It's exactly what we had on AoW3 release.

modest cipher
#

I mean it's not the same system as 3

lucid quail
raven pebble
#

a TK will have a very different role depending on whether the culture is ranged- or melee-heavy

modest cipher
#

but I do think there will be a lot of variety in practice

proud nest
raven pebble
#

I think culture + tomes can be very interesting if the cultures themselves are super different from one another

fossil berry
#

I want at least variations like Monster Hunters got, where Draconians had Fire Spit, Halflings Fireworks, and Dwarves Heavy Crossbows.

proud nest
low kestrel
proud nest
#

The sets of units are completely different

safe lodge
#

It is kind of seeming like races are just "skins" at this point if you can just pick and choose the traits you want

low kestrel
raven pebble
#

this is good, which means TK will inherently be different in different cultures due to gameplay context

fossil berry
proud nest
safe lodge
#

glad someone else is saying it

low kestrel
raven pebble
lucid quail
modest cipher
#

"race" means something different in this game

silver crest
#

this thread is completely circular

#

every day

low kestrel
proud nest
#

If you choose so

raven pebble
low kestrel
#

2 basic positions, from which vitriol etc emerge

silver crest
#

most people wont even touch the forms

#

the ai wont

low kestrel
#

1 - races are cosmetic and that's fine because if x, y, z

fossil berry
modest cipher
#

it's the whole point of the system

low kestrel
#

2 - races being cosmetic is a step back because of x, y, z

proud nest
#

The choice is in the player's hands

silver crest
#

races arent cosmetic because theyre not a thing in this game

fossil berry
modest cipher
#

it's not the same as 3 on release because there are a lot more variables

proud nest
#

exactly

raven pebble
harsh cape
#

release 3 the difference between an orc crusader and human crusader was just the +1 melee and -1 resistance

fossil berry
low kestrel
harsh cape
#

post release 3 was when the "tireles"was added in

#

ditto for most other class units

fossil berry
low kestrel
proud nest
low kestrel
modest cipher
proud nest
#

54! = roughly 2.3x10^71

fossil berry
torpid sonnet
#

I hope and still believe that a Feudal Tyrant Knight, a High Tyrant Knight, and a Dark Tyrant Knight can and will be as different as a Dwarf Crusader, Orc Crusader, and Frostling Crusader were in 3.

low kestrel
#

It's a cool concept though

modest cipher
#

also perks seem to affect your units more

raven pebble
silent dagger
low kestrel
#

Pick a bit of sorcerer, bit of warlord etc

fossil berry
low kestrel
proud nest
modest cipher
#

Cannibalism, etc

raven pebble
#

the tomes are little pieces of the classes from AoW3 basically

proud nest
#

Yes, and you could not mix and match parts of different classes in AoW3

raven pebble
#

so we go from a class-based to a classless system in the sense you can combine everything freely

modest cipher
#

to an extent but we've already seen abilities without any direct analog to 3

low kestrel
proud nest
#

Now, there are countless combinations which means a practically infinite amount of different classes

fossil berry
low kestrel
#

Race + class

fossil berry
low kestrel
#

Change one and you need to change the other equally, for equilibrium

proud nest
low kestrel
#

PF went deep on race, class became secret tech and was good spice

modest cipher
#

I'm pretty sure a barbarian tyrant knight is going to be very different from a high tyrant knight

harsh cape
#

the graphic designers locked in an office at gunpoint complain about the infinte variety probbably

fossil berry
modest cipher
#

I mean, there won't be unique modifiers specifically for the tyrant knight

fossil berry
modest cipher
#

but their bonuses will stack to make fairly different units I think

fossil berry
#

We even had that on release in 3!

#

In the "races are bland"-era!

raven pebble
fossil berry
#

So now it's the cultures being bland instead of the races, but that's not an improvement.

#

It's a regression.

silver crest
#

barbarian and high are exactly the same with just +1 and -1 somewhere then

raven pebble
#

I don't think it matters that much that there is no explicit connection between tome creatures and culture

modest cipher
#

there will also be bonuses specifically for unit classes so it's not just generic global modifiers

#

Shock, Sheild, Support, etc

torpid sonnet
#

We need tome units to vary with culture, every combination doesn't need to have unique artwork etc. but some should and most should have different special abilities beyond a +1 and a -1 somewhere.

raven pebble
#

if the cultures play differently, the tome creatures will inherently bring something different to each of them

silver crest
#

thats the whole point

raven pebble
#

what I foresee happening, however, is that just a few tomes are actually viable and everyone picks up the same ones all the time

proud nest
#

There are a lot more combinations of attributes for your faction this time (traits x culture x tomes)
That means that unique mechanics similar to AoW3 wouldn't be realistic

raven pebble
#

AoW3 had meta class/race combinations

proud nest
#

In AoW3, your chosen elements was not a factor in your units. Now they are, via tomes

harsh cape
#

there's a different meta for vs AI, PBEM< and Live, so almost everything gets used Somewhere

raven pebble
#

AoW3 ended up more or less balanced in the end, yes

proud nest
torpid sonnet
#

It is well within the realm of what is possible for say a Dark-Culture Tyrant Knight to get a unique red sword + life stealing (and be styled similarly to Dark Elf Executioners) as a way to differentiate them from other cultures. (with other balance changes to make sure it remains reasonable)

harsh cape
#

the multiplayer community treats Drednought as second class citizens, except in chivalrous mod

proud nest
#

And might happen

harsh cape
#

singleplayer community loves them, cause they break the AI so easy

fossil berry
raven pebble
#

to me, that's kind of gimmicky and myopic

modest cipher
#

you won't have that specifically for Tyrant Knight but you could have it for your Cavalry units

fossil berry
raven pebble
#

I don't think we necessarily need culture affecting the tome creatures

fossil berry
#

Yeah, we really do.

#

Otherwise the majority of people will return to 3 some 2 months after release.

proud nest
#

I don't 😇

fossil berry
#

Yeah, I get that a lot of you hate variety in the games you play.

modest cipher
#

no need for the personal attacks

proud nest
harsh cape
#

tbf 3 Orc Class units arbitarily get Tireless, and not all 20

proud nest
#

A lot more combinations than AoW3

raven pebble
modest cipher
#

but a lot of 3's unique race/class modifiers were bringing a class unit in line with a corresponding race unit anyway

#

elf ranged stuff gets longbows, orcs get weaker ranged and better melee on their class ranged units, etc

fossil berry
modest cipher
#

"you hate variety" is absolutely an attack lol

harsh cape
#

or 0 Human Racial Units have swimming, but 2 of their 20 class units gets it as a bonus

fossil berry
#

No, it's not. I loathe variety in a lot of RL situations.

raven pebble
torpid sonnet
#

with Forms being cosmetic choices, we need all the unique Culture + Tome variations to provide the mechanical flavor to your faction, so that you don't feel you are only playing a culture or only playing a tome.

proud nest
fossil berry
proud nest
raven pebble
proud nest
#

A lot of the tomes are specifically for unique unit bonuses

#

There's even that one tome which has 4 or 5 different unit bonuses

raven pebble
#

what I want to see out of races is something along the lines of "frogs can only found cities on water tiles" for example

harsh cape
#

yeah I'd stop after making an Expandned Arsenal Mod and not immediately try to make Chivalrous for AOW 4

fossil berry
#

It's basically a global Mystical City Upgrade.

#

It's not uniqueness.

modest cipher
#

but a lot of 3's unique race/class crossovers basically work out that way in practice

#

most dwarf infantry class units get defensive strike, similar to axeman

proud nest
modest cipher
#

goblin phalanx gets life steal, similar to butcher

#

etc

#

orc gets war cry on almost anything with melee, just as their base units do

harsh cape
#

if their are 8 different Unit Class Templates now... so a pikeman upgrade might be on just 4 units avaialbe to the player tbh

fossil berry
proud nest
#

Where the only interaction was Race x Class

raven pebble
#

here's what I propose which won't require an exponential amount of artistic and graphical work to implement

modest cipher
#

so I think you're overstating the difference between "your polearms get X ability" and how AoW3 actually handled its race/class crossovers. it's a different system, but I think there will be a lot of variety

raven pebble
#

races should just differ on the strategic map rather than the tactical one

#

leave the tactical side to culture + tomes

silver crest
#

why

#

right now its both

raven pebble
#

it's not both because races are cosmetic

proud nest
proud nest
silver crest
#

only if you go out of your way to change them :V

modest cipher
#

I mean, I'm not even saying that as a critique of 3 really

proud nest
raven pebble
proud nest
harsh cape
#

hoping for a endless legend style assymtry in age of wonders strategic is too much

silver crest
#

didnt even endless legend let you make custom factions

proud nest
silver crest
#

oh no, now everything is meaningless

raven pebble
#

yes, but it wasn't the default and it was broken as hell ;d

silver crest
#

if only something else also wasnt the default

#

🤔

proud nest
harsh cape
#

endless legend would let you stack economy bonuses by taking enough negative bonuses elsewhere

#

so using the system was essentially god mode

raven pebble
#

we are expected to change traits in AoW4, the custom faction in EL was a gimmick nobody used

harsh cape
#

I think 90% endless legend players play default races for that reason

proud nest
raven pebble
#

why did they market it then

proud nest
#

They didn't even change the traits in the demo

raven pebble
#

EL's marketing never hinged on the custom faction thing

proud nest
raven pebble
#

yeah, no, it's obviously not the same as EL's custom faction ;d

proud nest
#

McDonalds markets their fish burger, doesn't keep the meat eaters from going there

raven pebble
#

here's the deal

#

IF the default races in AoW4 end up as different as EL's, then I won't complain

#

I'll be extremely happy if that's the case

silver crest
#

probably are, considering race is form + traits + society + culture :V

#

and cultures are very different

raven pebble
#

do forms have default cultures and tomes?

#

I thought it was only the traits

proud nest
silver crest
#

that would be a terrible idea !

proud nest
#

correct?

#

Because you only choose race in EL. Nothing else

silver crest
#

I guess they do have defaults if you just pick a starting leader

harsh cape
#

EL would have a race that can't delcare war, a race that force peace treaties/alliances at will, and other nonsense only possible in a gme where combat isn't the focus

raven pebble
#

so no, there's no way for the default forms to be as different as in EL ;d

harsh cape
#

Every Class in AOW4 will be battle capable on the other hand

modest cipher
silver crest
#

youre saying something very different this time

modest cipher
#

not every race/class perk in 3 worked this way, but a lot did

proud nest
silver crest
raven pebble
#

unless I missed something ;d

#

people are equating EL's custom faction feature with AoW4's

proud nest
#

In which case, YES, they will be widely different

exotic reef
#

Im wondering how you guys just keep going xd

proud nest
exotic reef
#

I feel like everything has been said by both camps xd

raven pebble
proud nest
raven pebble
#

who exactly plays with the default leaders? ;d

proud nest
raven pebble
#

no

#

almost nobody plays EL's custom factions because it's broken and a gimmick

proud nest
#

I see

#

Seems like a problem with EL, not AoW4

raven pebble
#

it's not a problem, it's just not the way it was designed

#

it was an option for people to go wild, but they never put it front and center because it was a gimmick and broken

proud nest
#

If that's not a problem, then I'm sure you have no problem with the traits being editable in AoW4 then, for those who want to

#

Seems like a pretty similar situation

raven pebble
#

definitely not a similar situation, let me tell you

#

AoW4's whole shtick is to combine whatever you want with whatever you want

harsh cape
#

Endless Legends default were designed to be asymetric deliberately for story / narrative reasons

raven pebble
#

EL on the other hand knew what it wanted out of its factions ;d

proud nest
#

I guess they are strategy games who cater to different crowds then

raven pebble
proud nest
#

Which is fine

exotic reef
raven pebble
#

what choices exclude others?

harsh cape
#

Some Cultures prevent race starting picks

#

High prevented Cannibalism iirc

proud nest
#

AoW4 is for those who value build variety, EL is for those who value large strategic differences

raven pebble
exotic reef
#

For example traits like Wisdom of the Ancient exclude other arcane ones, good traits exclude chaos ones

proud nest
#

Both can coexist in harmony 😇

raven pebble
exotic reef
#

So maybe that's the middle ground of this whole thing - customization restricted by balanced exclusions :p

proud nest
#

I believe that was only for the society traits. 2-3 of them are good and 2-3 are evil, and they are mutually exclusive

raven pebble
#

but how can I get my cannibalistic high elves?

#

Triumph seems to be restricting my choices

proud nest
#

I think so, yes

#

I don't think certain cultures excluded certain society traits

#

but I might not remember

exotic reef
#

High culture means in that example highly developed society that dosnt eat other humanoids :p

silver crest
boreal peak
harsh cape
boreal peak
#

They certainly do.

#

Incompatible with Barbarian Culture.

harsh cape
#

barbarians would never do anything evil obviously

proud nest
#

I guess you're right then

silver crest
#

might be because they dont have a shock unit?

proud nest
#

Seems unnecessary at first glance

raven pebble
#

woooo

#

finally some structure

modest cipher
#

i'm probably gonna mute this topic, it's gone around in circles os many times haha

silver crest
#

good idea

proud nest
#

Might be for balance reasons, in which case it is necessary, albeit sad

harsh cape
#

2600 replies is larger than like the 5 largest threads on the paradox forums

proud nest
#

those are rookie numbers 😄

modest cipher
#

oh so Lennart says AI will never change the default form traits

#

even if you turn on randomized factions

proud nest
#

Literally completely optional to change them, outside of multiplayer

boreal peak
#

I believe that people are mostly talking about MP there in this case.

raven pebble
#

it's both

#

but like I said, I'd still like to see unique form-specific strategic mechanics

#

like frogs only being able to found cities on water tiles

boreal peak
#

Personally, I would simply slap a lobby option on it which allows/prevents changing form traits and be done with.

proud nest
#

Some don't think that's enough

harsh cape
#

there would still be 0 things in your recruit list based on form

exotic reef
#

Whats the point of locking them xD

#

Just don't change them

boreal peak
#

MP games.

exotic reef
#

Oh i see :p fair point

proud nest
exotic reef
#

But if you can play as orcs with locked traits whats the point of not playing "orcs" that have elves as a body type?

#

Does it affect MP what form you play as long as traits are "deafult"

proud nest
#

I think the argument people have there is "glance value", which I think would be more relevant if this was a real-time game and not turn-based

fossil berry
boreal peak
raven pebble
proud nest
#

I'm checking it now in the demo vid

exotic reef
#

What about the traits like chosen of light or liberator or cannibalism

boreal peak
#

For example, you could not combine Halfling Mind + Human Body traits in such a scenario.

#

To be honest, the whole thing seems like a rather minor detail to me.

exotic reef
#

Body and mind traits doesn't seem to be affecting game more than those

raven pebble
exotic reef
#

Since from what we have seen body and mind traits are like +10% DMG on melee or something like that

#

And cannibalism is arguably more game balance changing

proud nest
#

It seems, after watching the tooltips shown during the demo, that only society traits are incompatible with each other

#

No culture rules out any society traits

harsh cape
#

I think thats to save tooltip space

proud nest
#

So you can have High Cannibals 🙂

proud nest
harsh cape
#

Barbarian Culture has nothing listed as incompatible under it though

exotic reef
#

I think I understand more now - I think there is such confusion about form and body/mind traits because we look like that's our race, while Devs look at it like the whole process is creating your race

IMG_20230127_155951.jpg
harsh cape
#

even though the thin scions of evil on the next page has "barbarian culture" marked

proud nest
raven pebble
#

scions of evil says it's incompatible with barbarians

proud nest
#

Oh right, the screenshot

#

I can't explain that, but I didn't see it during the demo either

#

Anyone know where that screenshot was from?

exotic reef
#

Also isn't there the whole page of premade races and leaders? Like talking again about MP issues

proud nest
#

nvm, I saw it now when they scrolled through some affinities. It does say that Barbarian culture is incompatible with "Scions of Evil"

#

idk man, confusing

harsh cape
#

I agree incompatibles should be marked on both ends for clarity

proud nest
#

You know what, I bet that's actually for game balance. I bet it's too easy for the Barbarian culture to stack Evil alignment, so the bonus is too good on them

harsh cape
#

see this thread can do non-partisian game feedback 😄

fossil berry
#

Exclusivity like that has so far always been on thematic grounds, though.

#

Never on balance grounds.

proud nest
#

I don't like the exclusivity on thematic grounds though, it goes against their goal of creative freedom

harsh cape
#

grey guard adept and shadow born master at same time would give you a +4 defense guy with lifesteal and the double critical

#

so even with the negative happiness it'd be pretty strong

proud nest
#

It seems that barbarians are incompatible with "runesmiths" as well, and I have no trouble imagining barbarians smithing runes :/

harsh cape
#

at worst it would mean stapling some guy with Bard Skills into your army to get them back to neutral happiness

fossil berry
fossil berry
proud nest
#

I just rewatched the announcement, and every single tome they showed has at least one unique unit, either summonable or recruitable

#

Often 2, even

#

So I foresee the final roster of units for any given faction to be about 50/50 or 60/40 culture vs tomes

harsh cape
#

I foresee it being 10/90 culture vs tomes

#

I see no evidence of getting new culture units in a playthrough ever

proud nest
#

which would mean even greater build variety, if that were the case

proud nest
raven pebble
harsh cape
#

you could rebuild the original 6 recruits (infantry/archer/etc) ofc but the recruit list wouldn't grow

proud nest
#

No buildings to unlock units from your culture seems unlikely

raven pebble
#

unless the culture rosters are literally the 5ish units we see during creation

proud nest
raven pebble
#

oh, it's definitely possible ;d

raven pebble
# fossil berry True.

because it's not about creative freedom, it's about work load ;d the "do it your way" rhetoric is just trying to throw dust in our eyes

#

you have more creative freedom (in the sense of creative potential) in a restricted environment anyway

#

necessity is the mother of invention as they say

proud nest
#

What you're saying is essentially that thinking outside the box is less creative, which is a strange concept

#

imo

raven pebble
#

no

#

quite the opposite

#

the restricted environment is the box you have to think outside of

#

if you don't have that, there is no box ;d

pine glacier
#

there is nothing "inside the box" you couldn't do "outside the box" but having limitations gives you a structure to explore and guide where you want to break convention and where to follow it

#

that's what the saying is about

raven pebble
#

sooo

#

you are agreeing with me?

pine glacier
#

i'm saying the statement "you have more creative freedom in a restricted environment anyway" is false, that is not the meaning of the chain of logic you are referencing

harsh cape
#

when three different people say no in a row Its confusing lol

raven pebble
pine glacier
pine glacier
raven pebble
#

technically yes, but practically no

pine glacier
#

you have guidelines to direct your creative potential with limitations. but you have less potential.

#

it's easier

raven pebble
#

you wouldn't come up with the same solutions when there is only a contextless void

#

you wouldn't think to invent a ladder if there wasn't anything taller than you

pine glacier
pine glacier
raven pebble
#

...but not a ladder

pine glacier
#

but if you have to get to something taller than you, your inventions are limited to "things that take me up"

#

this is: less potential

raven pebble
#

no

#

things that take me up only make sense in an environment in which you need such a thing

pine glacier
#

if the only thing you creatively explore is your necessities i guess

raven pebble
#

necessity is the mother of invention ¯_(ツ)_/¯

pine glacier
#

who's ever done anything they didn't need to

#

anyways you're talking about one very specific aspect of aow4 (that ahs restrictions as well, just less of them than you're used to) so i'm not sure i understand the argument here

#

i the player will innovate less because...

#

i can choose my 3d models?

#

????

raven pebble
#

if we could create our own traits, I bet you people would create the same ones all the time

pine glacier
#

ok

raven pebble
#

and how much exactly are you innovating when forms are just cosmetic?

pine glacier
#

what was i innovating before???

raven pebble
#

you mean in other AoW games?

pine glacier
#

what """innovation""" have forms robbed me of

#

describe to me this tragic loss

#

what could have been lacrymas

#

spin me the tale of the world you yearn for, where aow4 forms are nto cosmetic

raven pebble
#

frog people could've been limited to founding cities only on water tiles

pine glacier
#

what is the point you are making

raven pebble
#

for example ;d

pine glacier
raven pebble
#

but we don't have such a trait

pine glacier
#

????????????????

#

how do you know?????

#

and why couldn't we??????????

raven pebble
#

we could

#

but do we ;d

pine glacier
#

if we don't have such a trait is that because the game designers said "ah nah anyone can be frogs" or did they independently say "a water only trait sounds like bad gameplay, let's not put it in"

#

big correlation is not causation problem here

raven pebble
#

it's definitely not bad gameplay lol

pine glacier
#

game design master lacrymas has logged on to enlighten us

#

you are also not engaging witht he actual point

raven pebble
#

I actually am a game designer, yes

#

tabletop mostly ;d

pine glacier
#

the developers could have put such a trait in. it would have been about as easy as putting it in, but limiting it to frogs only.

#

if they chose not to do such a thing it was probably not because of the frogs

#

you got creds? what games?

raven pebble
#

it's not anything official yet, but I have my own setting and my own system that I'm looking to publish

#

mostly playing with friends and ...others for now

fossil berry
#

Then you're as much as a game designer as I am a writer.

pine glacier
#

ok so you have the authority of an amateur? like that's cool man i don't want to bring you down over it but this information does not convince me that you know what you're talking about

fossil berry
#

My credits extend to have about 10k readers on a fanfic.

#

People in that class do are NOT experts.

raven pebble
#

you would be surprised how many people aren't experts in the highest paid and popular positions

pine glacier
#

incredible argument

#

very convincing, cutting right to the heart of the matter

raven pebble
#

I'm not sure how you differentiate experts from non-experts (like me I guess)

#

popularity? monetary success?

pine glacier
#

typically via having a body of work you can observe and form a a more educated opinion on than "trust me bro"

raven pebble
#

academic qualifications?

fossil berry
#

Do you get paid enough to not need another job? If the answer is yes, then you're professional.

pine glacier
fossil berry
#

I actually know a few fanfic writers who qualify as professional by that metric.

raven pebble
#

so it is about money

fossil berry
#

It's about what money other people think you're worth, yes.

raven pebble
#

hard disagree on that one ;d

fossil berry
#

Since it's a metric available to literally any activity.

pine glacier
#

if you want to talk about how you have authority as a game designer in this convo that continues to mean nothing until you can put up something that actually earns the respect. if i'm just taking your word on it your word means nothing to me

#

if i can't see your game, i see no reason to care that you have nebulously made "a tabletop game" soemwhere at some point

#

perhaps, if i could look up, purchase, and play your game, i could form an opinion about your game design abilities and philosophy

fossil berry
#

If you want me to consider you a game designer for having worked on a system 10 people played, then I do want you to take my 10k fanfic readers as evidence everything I say about lore or storytelling is the absolute truth, as if a god-given revelation.

#

(Which, for the record, is rediculous)

pine glacier
#

for all i know, your game is really, really, really bad

raven pebble
#

so it's not about money but quality

pine glacier
#

you'll have to prove it isn't man

#

...yeah my respect for you as a game designer extends exactly as far as the extent to which i enjoy your games

#

i dunno what more you want than that

raven pebble
#

because it's not a quantifiable metric ;d

harsh cape
#

You'd take the resume of what festivals put on my improv show more seriously probbably

#

22 Printed locations and dates

pine glacier
#

dude your approach to these concepts is not convincing me that you're a good game designer

fossil berry
#

Quality is quantifyable by how much money people are willing to give you for your work. Which is why I consider "can you live from your work" as a metric as to whether it's good enough to respect your opinion on it inherently.

raven pebble
#

that's only in a capitalist environment

fossil berry
pine glacier
#

quality is quantifiable for me personally, from my own subjective viewpoint. quality is not quantifiable across a larger population except as an average or aggregate.

raven pebble
#

pointless conversation is pointless

pine glacier
#

lol

#

it's pointless now

#

because lacrymas doesn't have a comeback

raven pebble
#

I won't be dragged into this

pine glacier
#

it was not pointless 14 lacrymas messages ago

modest cipher
#

wait was "Restrictions breed creativity" meant for the designer or player? cause if it's the designer I'll agree

#

not the player though. well, not necessarily it depends

pine glacier
fossil berry
#

Ah, if you checked out at that moment, I can forgive you. I sometimes wish I had.

pine glacier
#

then i said "this was 6 hours ago, i wonder what they're talking about now"

modest cipher
#

yeah and the proof was "Steamspy says Planetfall bombed, it doesn't matter if it's unreliable"

pine glacier
#

lmao

fossil berry
#

"But it has numbers, and your explanation why it's unreliable does not"

pine glacier
#

the game designer who seeks only quantifiable metrics huh

fossil berry
#

I can see you're already filled with confidence in the quality of his homebrew.

pine glacier
#

well i suppose in a lack of quantifiable metrics we must provide the benefit of the doubt, but if any at all exist, no matter how verifiable or the existence of other observational points supporting a larger conclusion, that must be taken as the gospel truth

#

let's not talk about lacrymas anymore

modest cipher
#

Planetfall was in the top 10 selling PC games in release month, based on NPD

#

(the most official source for this)

#

sorry, top 15. still

pine glacier
#

@fossil berry i'm interested in your opinion on the tome system, how do you feel about the player's ability to customize their research tree over the course of the game rather than having it locked in stone at the outset?

fossil berry
#

I really like the tomes.

#

Lots of choices to be made there.

pine glacier
#

do you have any analysis of the broader, high level gameplay and decisionmaking effects that will have?

proud nest
#

I watched the announcement video again today and paused the video at all the tooltips.
Man, the tomes-section of the video had my mouth watering

fossil berry
#

I don't know enough tome contents to say.

modest cipher
#

my main thematic idea so far is Feanorian Noldor, probably materium/chaos (maybe a splash of Order)

fossil berry
#

But there's a ton of potential.

#

I'd have to sit down and read through the entire bunch at once to see if I get interesting ideas about strategies.

modest cipher
#

my main gameplay faction idea is to use High/Industrious and a couple of other modifiers to spam out tanky low-tier shield units and use Order NPC bonuses and/or summons to handle the DPS

proud nest
#

The variety in unique units now is just crazy, they can be so much more specific thematically than before. The Tome of Beasts has a "Wildspeaker", van't wait to see what that is

fossil berry
#

First try will probably be either campaign, or dark elves.

pine glacier
#

little tangential but might be informative towards this topic. tomes represent freeform customization as well, though those are a mix of gameplay and, idk, "atmosphere?" "lore?" as opposed to cosmetic forms which are purely the latter. how do you think being able to change your tech tree mid-match will affect the game?

modest cipher
#

I will say I like how the tome system interacts with randomized researh

pine glacier
#

my thinking is it tends a lot more towards adaptive play, though if there's combinational variants or unique effects if you ahve both x and y that would push the scales the other way

modest cipher
#

you have your research pool gradually seeded over time so you'll have a good mix of randomization and predictability I think

#

(I think I prefer some form of randomization with tech in 4X, but not too much)

fossil berry
#

More growing than changing, since you lose nothing. And it'll help a lot with complaints from arch druids goblins complaining about dread being blight immune.

proud nest
fossil berry
#

Since you can just see it's immune, and then grab tomes that counter it.

#

It's a layer of strategy where you can adapt your build and options on the fly.

proud nest
pine glacier
proud nest
#

My preferred balancing-mantra has always been "If everything is OP, nothing is OP"

modest cipher
#

I mean you can have a general plan that you change to counter stuff as needed

pine glacier
#

typically identified via a lack of variety in the meta or unfun/tedious abuses becoming necessary

modest cipher
#

what we know of the druid-type stuff sounds pretty fun. bonuses for standing next to animals

proud nest
#

With that philosophy (everything OP) it's really important that there is always counterplay available

modest cipher
#

yeah, and ideally more than one counter

pine glacier
fossil berry
proud nest
#

If ranged damage is OP, buff assassins and cavalry. If cavalry is OP, buff pikemen etc etc

pine glacier
#

and even pf had heavy adaptability baked into the game, a lot of that being in map state

proud nest
#

Ofc nerfs are sometimes necessary, but I prefer that they are avoided

pine glacier
proud nest
pine glacier
#

it's really about establishing a baseline of acceptability right?

#

deviations from the baseline are ok but they should be evened out in some other area

proud nest
#

If a game's main balancing tool is nerfs, the game tends to turn blander. With mainly buffs, the strategy becomes more polarized (more rock-paper-scissor-y, if that makes sense)

pine glacier
#

units that are high above the baseline feel fun because they are disproportionately impactful

proud nest
#

That's how I think, anyhow. But I am no game designer 😉

pine glacier
#

units below the baseline are simply left in the dust, or represent "traps" for the unexperienced

proud nest
#

hard agree

#

Gotta avoid those "traps"

#

The goal should be that everything is viable

crisp turret
# silver crest

Wait, so the units can be modified to? To how much extend? I can create an all female all barefoot muscular race like the PF Amazons? Or go even further and add helmet/blindfolds/cape to my racial units like with the leaders? I could add cat ears to the human form and make a catgirl race? If customization reach such extend so I guess i can accept the trade off of forms having meaningless gameplay impact !

modest cipher
pine glacier
#

but because units above the baseline are where players gravitate, that's where the problems come from. units left in the dust do not cause problems, other than it's kinda boring. units above the baseline are what the rest of the game's meta get built around

modest cipher
#

it might actually make balancing easier because if one of the bonuses is really strong you just make the rest in the package weak

proud nest
#

Probably not

pine glacier
proud nest
pine glacier
#

you might even call recognizing the difference between a good and bad decision "playing the game"

proud nest
low kestrel
# modest cipher I'm pretty sure a barbarian tyrant knight is going to be very different from a h...

I had to finish my lunch break when you wrote this.

Anyway, what I was trying to say earlier:

1 . Race and class is the basic paradigm. AoW3 introduced it, PF used it and AoW4 is also using it. If you change one part, the other needs a change as well. PF is a good example, tilting towards race and class being muchness important (but still great fun!)

That is proof that the central idea of reducing racial importance is NOT inherently a bad one.

The worry, and it is a legitimate one I think, is that the other side of the equation, which is class, has now become deconstructed (for the record, I think this is genius thinking) and because the emphasis is modular, the things lost from the race side have not been adequately compensated.

That's a legitimate concern and having this concern does not make you some choice hating weirdo.

But this leads me to point number 2.

2 - each new AoW game has brought in something amazing and something not great.

[Aow1 to AoW2 gave us multi action combat, which was great. Yay my Archers could move and shoot. It also brought Wizard's towers and my avatar was now stuck there, and could not level up like my heroes could. And there was the whackamole gameplay of hunting down the last tower...]

So the takeaway there is

What if the new race system is everything the doomsayers think it is, will that destroy the game for you?

proud nest
#

For example, of course it shouldn't be viable to pick a tome with mainly buffs to ranged units if your culture specializes heavily in melee. Because an average player cn be expected to understand that.

low kestrel
low kestrel
fossil berry
#

Not that I know, at least from dev side.

raven pebble
low kestrel
modest cipher
#

you're the only person I've seen who thinks this is important or even desirable in AoW

proud nest
fossil berry
#

"race" Traits that we've seen are minimal at best. It's really just culture that matters.

#

Societal traits do a lot more.

proud nest
#

Agreed

#

But the traits are bonuses that can be impactful across a whole game

#

Even though they are numerically small in the grand scheme of things

fossil berry
#

Some societal traits give certain categories of units an additional medal on recruitment. Those will always be far more influential than any 3 race traits we've seen combined.

#

And then the societal traits do more in addition to that.

modest cipher
#

some of the race traits will be more impactful than others

#

default Orcs have one that's +30% on retals and melee overwatch I think?

#

that's more important than the generic 10% melee

proud nest
#

I think it's neat

proud nest
safe lodge
#

Oh howdy BBB

pine glacier
#

keep those things on the decisionmaking tree, somewhere. they must be a consideration, if not the best pick.

crisp turret
#

Deleting race and its unique interactions is only worth it if the form creation for all the units is MMORPG level, true wizard god level feelings with that, anything less is a net loss over the traditional approach

exotic reef
#

Races were never so uniquely crafted like what they showed in AoW4. You tailor every step of what they represent in the world that you play in - the idea is we visit many planes, many worlds same humans could have evolved differently affected by the world they end up to. Sticking to every orc has brutal strength and every elf is mystical high elf doesn't really match it. It can be for the sake of purity of those races but doesn't have to be. I still miss the point of this whole discussion why this system makes orcs less orcs but okey.

wet bronze
#

Back now that we have a new dev diary - I would like to see culture/tome variations, even if they are just minor visual changes so that I can distinguish between a barbarian tyrant knight and a mystic tyrant knight

pine glacier
#

everyone wants variants, i think that's pretty unanimous

#

but historically aow3 and pf both did not release with many variants

wet bronze
#

Maybe I'm easy to please but I'd also be ok if its a post release thing

pine glacier
#

it takes extra dev time for something you'd only see if you selected a specific combination of traits. it's kind of thing where any individual variant probably adds almost nothing to the game but once you have a certain level of saturation of them suddenly it flips into being a huge feature

wet bronze
#

Yeah I see it as a lot of work

#

That can easily spiral out of control

pine glacier
#

who knows what they'll do but the previous strategy of working on a compelling base game and mechanics and then working on those kinds of "nice to haves" after the game has been released makes sense

modest cipher
#

oh did PF mostly not have race/class variants at release?

#

(I got into PF right around T-rex)

pine glacier
#

it had some

wet bronze
#

I thought it had a few

bold thicket
#

With the amount of levers they're giving us for our starting faction I'm not even sure we need variants. Just having more unique meaningful choices and tomes would be plenty. Rather than relying on specific combinations of things to suddenly do X, you just pick X as one of the many choices you make?

modest cipher
#

I know 3's were added later

pine glacier
#

most notably amazons got stuff for STs

#

i'd say >70% of the variants now in the game were post release adds

sonic trellis
#

didn't Amazons always have stuff like Purifier Archers and Echo Lancers on release?

pine glacier
bold thicket
#

Amazons were one of the early more unique ones

pine glacier
modest cipher
#

I'm basically ok with forms meaning less but I wouldn't mind seeing one or two unique units per form eventually

#

maybe one fantasy trope stereotype and one more offbeat and exotic

pine glacier
#

i'd much rather have variants for cultures or society traits

#

or even tome-tome combinations

#

or form traits giving unit variants

modest cipher
#

anyway Triumph is good at post-launch support so we'll see what happens

bold thicket
#

Like I get it, but I'd rather they just let us choose that variant from a list rather than relying on a specific form trait. That'd give even more customization. :p

modest cipher
#

I feel like we'll probably get more DLC this time? like the customization system seems prime for lots of small-to-medium DLCs with new modules

pine glacier
#

if forms are gonna matter i'd rather it be upfront with stat differences or w/e than "secretly if you perform the ancient ceremony of tomes and culture this matters in that select scenario (so make sure to consider this before making anyone!)"

modest cipher
#

which, if handled well I'm ok with

formal lodge
#

I love the variants, but seems like there's a different direction for AoW4, it'd be way easier to code/model so hopefully, they can spend the time they have previously put into making them into other cool stuff.

wet bronze
#

On the forums someone pointed out that the tyrant knight unit on the research panel had a boar

modest cipher
#

so I was thinking the form unique units (one or two each) would be just part of your roster alongside the culture and tome stuff, not combo-specific

#

but yeah who knows what they'll do

wet bronze
#

So it looks like the industrious tyrant knight will be visually distinct from the high culture ones

#

I just checked and yeah its a boar

pine glacier
wet bronze
#

Same one in the industry unit preview

bold thicket
modest cipher
#

I mean it's all hypothetical and I don't NEED to have this, I think I'll enjoy the current system

bold thicket
#

Yeah no worries, just easy to see some issues with that

modest cipher
#

but like, maybe Halflings could get a Bilbo-style adventurer and some Scouring-style industrial taskmaster unit. Dwarves get a melee bruiser and a runic caster (not fire based). I would try to do one fantasy trope and one more out there and exotic

fossil berry
bold thicket
#

Why do those units need to be form-specific, and wouldn't it add massively more customization if you could just choose which units you'd want for each form? The taskmaster if it has a whip could work for a lady of pain for elves then too, for example.

fossil berry
#

(to give meaning to forms)

pine glacier
fossil berry
#

Things like halfling slinger, goblin bomber, etc.

bold thicket
#

The amount of customization for your race increases dramatically that way, and doesn't impede any themes you might want.

fossil berry
bold thicket
#

Then you shouldn't pick that specific unit, and pick one of the other 19 (if the plan was to make 2 per form initially)

fossil berry
#

But you didn't want them form-specific, so how would it be per form?

modest cipher
#

Yeah I was thinking more a modernizing industrial overseer, closer to a petty bureaucrat than a whip guy lol. anyway we'll just see what happens

bold thicket
#

So for a similar amount of work, you'd have much more customization

fossil berry
#

Ah, so just 2 additional generic templates of your choice.

#

You'd have to make sure it works with every form, though.

#

I'm not convinced that's a similar amount of work.

bold thicket
#

Right, just like all the other faction units that already exist

fossil berry
#

But unlike the suggestion of form-specific units which you contrasted it with.

bold thicket
#

You'd have less modeling work, yes. That's it.

fossil berry
#

Pretty sure that's most of the actual work.

#

Just hooking up a few abilities was dead simple already with 3.

#

The modding tool quality won't have deteriorated.

pine glacier
#

does every unit have a unique model or is there a base model that armor and stuff is piled on top of

modest cipher
#

how do you all feel about enchantments as a replacement for mods?

pine glacier
#

a shortcut like that that covers 70% of units would make the workload of forms across the game make a lot more sense

fossil berry
pine glacier
#

and then you'd just use the same base model for these unique units

fossil berry
#

Because it'd be literally 1/10 of the work, given how forms work.

modest cipher
#

it looks like enchantments will be global for units of a particular race (meaning not just form) and type(s) (shield, polearm, support, etc)

fossil berry
sonic trellis
#

enchantments make me wonder how they will balance higher-tier units

#

at least the ones that can get the same enchantments as the lower-tier ones

modest cipher
#

I'll miss PF's single-unit customization but it also could get annoying at times to micromanage so

sonic trellis
#

to avoid the tendency of 3's late game to devolve into spamming almost nothing but your best unit

modest cipher
#

(there was this deranged anti-Planetfall guy on Steam forums who said "The way mods SHOULD have worked is you build them in a city and send your units to equip them there! that would be less boring")

pine glacier
modest cipher
#

I wonder how units going up to 5 or 6 tiers will affect that?

pine glacier
#

given the base model shortcut discussed i'm not sure the additional workload argument is a good one here

modest cipher
#

If done properly it could help. maybe the tier stat difference will be more graduated this time

fossil berry
modest cipher
#

like if tier 5 or 6 (I'm not sure how high it goes) is roughly where 4 used to be, then the tiers might be closer together and not so strictly outclassed once you get high tiers in decent numbers

fossil berry
#

That'd help, yeah.

sonic trellis
#

that Tyrant Knight is T4 and did seem more like he would be a T3 unit in previous games

harsh cape
#

I know it only had 1 ability but it was still Manticore rider damage

modest cipher
#

the numbers seem generally bigger

sonic trellis
#

health seems increased across the board

#

like T1 infantry have 60 instead of 30-40-ish health

modest cipher
#

well, sort of one ability. "Demoralizing Heavy Charge, X damage" would be 4 lines in AoW3 haha

fossil berry
#

Allows for more fine-tuning. In AoW 1, damage ranged from 1 to 7, IIRC.

modest cipher
#

generally each fantasy AoW game has increased the scale

sonic trellis
#

also they are probably sticking with the damage reduction model in Planetfall

fossil berry
#

(Karaghs, a T4, could 1-shot a Leprechaun, also a T4)

sonic trellis
#

each point of armor/resist/protection multiplies damage taken by 0.9

fossil berry
#

Which effects higher damage numbers more strongly.

#

Hm, not sure if I like that.

sonic trellis
#

so one armor is 10% damage reduction, two is 19%, three is 27%, etc.

harsh cape
#

That is not how pf work's

pine glacier
#

it's unintuitive in that the amount reduced per point lowers as you get higher, which suggests that later points are worth successively less. but they actually raise effect hp more, so larger armor numbers are better

bold thicket
pine glacier
bold thicket
pine glacier
#

yep

fossil berry
bold thicket
#

But it doesn't?

#

It's literally by the same %

pine glacier