Ricochet bug; double hit

[mint sand]

tl;dr
Ricochet is hitting the module it bounced from twice, in addition to all other modules once

Overview

How ricochet states it works:

Say your using this pilot talent with a punisher, only targeting 1 module on the enemy. 15% of the time, you'll just also damage the other 5 modules, but it doesn't do any bonus damage to the same module, so ricochet shouldn't make them actually die any quicker, right?

While this is what the description implies, it is not what actually occurs. When Ricochet procs (meaning the 15% rolls successful), it also damages the module it bounced from again, in addition to the other 5 modules. When Ricochet procs, the module that was hit originally will take double damage. This was first discovered by fishstickers in her post here #1402488151041118249 message.

Evidence

Exhibit A

In the following two screenshots, you see a singular Shocktrain hit doing 4,746 damage, then 33,222 damage when it procs ricochet. This is 7x the damage (33222/4746) instead of 6x the damage, indicating its either hitting another module again, or splitting the extra 100% damage between all modules equally.

Hypothesis: The extra unexpected 100% damage is specifically targeting the same module it bounced from, and nothing else. This would yield: Ricochet chance x Ricochet bonus damage (15% x 100%) = 15% average DPS

Full video evidence also attached. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1402488151041118249/1402488155155857508/Ricochet_700.mp4?ex=689dfba1&is=689caa21&hm=8860ccc8195167904a0a5bdb2954c06abb0d3aef2a7c0bfed9bced58fec5c725&

Exhibit B

In screenshot 1, no pilot was used, and the time-to-kill (TTK) was 58.58s. 35 bullets remaining out of 100 in the 6th clip (565 bullets to kill).

In screenshot 2, Sora Sing was used with Ricochet, and 4 other talents that do not affect DPS, resulting in a TTK of 49.46s. 3 bullets remaining out of 100 on the 5th clip (497 bullets to kill)

Full video:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1403581361163473038/1404957937192931389/punisher_ricochet.mp4?ex=689e660b&is=689d148b&hm=4f3475cf625c9bbd2f0c113a3a883a331c1c9a1b43a5228453e65133aa647e0c&
Note: Orochi torso's Echo Barrage ability was used to remove shields first, as Ricochet can not affect shields.

Results from evidence

With Ricochet, the TTK is 15% shorter (1-49.46/58.58), indicating an 18% increase in DPS (58.58/49.46-1), though the fixed ~5s reload makes a TTK comparison not perfect. More precisely, the # of bullets to kill is 12% less (1-497/565), indicating a ~14% DPS increase (565/497-1) that ignores the reload time.

Conclusion

This ~14% single-target DPS increase matches the 15% DPS that you would expect to gain if the hypothesis is correct- Ricochet is hitting the module it bounced from twice, in addition to all other modules once

Potential solutions

In a recent CM announcement (#📢│announcements message), the following was stated

However, many of your ideas would require significant development and testing time, and we’d like to respond to the live meta as quickly as possible.
Understandable- as such, I have provided one option that involves development hours, and another option that is strictly a numerical & description localization edit.

Option 1

Change: Ricochet no longer hits the same module it bounced from.
Functional Result: Single target DPS is no longer 15% higher (on average). Total damage across all 6 modules from a single ricochet proc reduced by 14% (7x to 6x).

Option 2

Change: Description is modified to have the word "other" removed:

When Sora deals targeted damage directly to an enemy module, there is a X% chance that the damage will ricochet into all other modules
Odds of ricochet are lowered from 15% to 8% to compensate for the mechanic remaining as is.
Functional Result: Odds of Ricochet occurring lowered from 15% to 8%.

How to reproduce

1. Equip the Ricochet pilot talent, present on Sora Sing (premium) and Ratchet Thompson (common)
2. Use any weapon (ghost turret and ares' wrath' retribution count)
   2.5. OPTIONAL: Equip Locusts for extra abuse
3. Get lucky

Credit

Credit to @knotty summit for recording the evidence and discovering the bug that led to this follow up research.

[mint sand]

bump

[brave frigate]

.w.

[karmic flame]

Bump this needs fixing especially for locust damage over time

[hot torrent]

I saw it from the "locust needs nerf" suggestion

get this up so its fixed

[brave frigate]

Fr

[grim thunder]

Bump

[mint sand]

Bump

[brave frigate]

As a flanker I literally got shot one time and it took him from 100% to dead

With one shot from the dot damage

[tulip perch]

Bump

[unkempt plinth]

Bump, WRF Team always been so talented on making new bugs when trying to change their code.

[mortal dagger]

Hello there, I wanted to update you on this bug. It was reported to the team, and the expected fix is planned for no earlier than the next season.

[steel hornet]

@mortal dagger Does its mean battlepass season (20day left) or rank season(50+day left)?

[mortal dagger]

It's unclear for now whether the fix will make it into version 1.3 or a hotfix shortly after. What I can say is that it will be addressed in one of the upcoming updates starting with 1.3

[steel hornet]

oh so its battlepass season

[mint sand]

Just wanted to share this message from a locust user that made me giggle

[mint sand]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1033385078820180128/1408288665481773177/5a38c9fa-56e2-4822-9b25-8f261e718df5.mov?ex=68a93286&is=68a7e106&hm=ab5b97f036f7fdfd3e6e8e298479d7498e900052c40aa2eb79889abae76c0cf6&

[south crater]

this isnt an old thing. ive been using ricochet on punishers for ahwile now. the ttk difference is huge, and always has been huge

[knotty summit]

what is new is that its ricocheting back to the initial target module now, so its double hitting the initial target module from 1 ricochet hit now since ricochet got updated.

here's the video that shows that
#1402488151041118249 message

[south crater]

so my fury still has the same ttk as it always did

so i havent noticed anything

its still 7.14 seconds

[knotty summit]

have u compared videos of old ricochet trigger damage vs new ricochet trigger damage?

[south crater]

here is a old screenshot

[knotty summit]

this one isnt even ricochet?

[south crater]

nope, same bot

different paint

ratchet

infact the top one is upgraded

ok if i use level 13 punishers there is a huge difference from level 8

level 13 with ricochet

[knotty summit]

hows without now?

[south crater]

let me check

faster???????

huh????

these are the level 8s

what

ok let me toss the 13 on

[knotty summit]

no just use the same exact bot as here but take off ratchet

so there's no other modifiers

[south crater]

i did

im also testing levels

level 8 without rachet was .1 seconds faster

[knotty summit]

at 7.03s means its 0.55s slower?

[south crater]

comparing to level 8 its .1 faster

to level 13 its .55 slower

level 13 without ratchet

im now really confused on how its faster at lower levels without ratchet

should rephrase what i mean, the difference at level 8 while takes longer then lvl 13, is shorter in terms of its level bracket.

[knotty summit]

does it have a pilot that is applying modifiers to its reload, dmg, etc?

[south crater]

no

and it wouldnt have mattered

max without ricochet would be 7% vs 15%

reload doesnt matter since its on a fury

maybe there are stats we cant see on weapons?

[knotty summit]

easiest way is if you have a video of triggering old ricochet and you look at the ricochet damage tick vs now triggering new ricochet damage tick

[mint sand]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/186253537473200128/1409748904131559495/ricochet_balanced.mp4?ex=68ae827a&is=68ad30fa&hm=dbfe0b2f313e90e28065ec7be44ab1d969a1ce345da053e1cb506111cca81788&
ricochet bug being exploited to deal double damage on sniper weapons (shocktrains in this case)

[brave frigate]

LMAO

The instant cut

[cloud fossil]

Wondering why i got 1 shot.

[brave frigate]

I wonder how good the ricochet With the new gun

[south crater]

With 3 guns on a crit ive seen 15k

[brave frigate]

Huh

[south crater]

Without it. Its around 9k to armor

[mint sand]

If all 3 crit itll do double damage

[south crater]

Max of 18k

[junior spruce]

Against the initial module, it's an average 15% damage increase.

1 + (0.15 * 1)

Obviously it can end up being more meaningful than that when hitting the "wrong" module (i.e. one other than the weakest), since it's basically giving you a 15% chance to damage the "right" module regardless of which one you hit. On-paper damage will also be higher too obviously, from all the other modules getting hit.

How much it reduces your time to kill goes up a lot when using multi-projectile weapons with spread, though, which normally would have a hard time focusing their damage on a single module in the first place. Now all those projectiles that would have been doing nothing to decrease the time to kill (hitting modules other than the weakest) all have a 15% chance to contribute to the actual, meaningful damage. It also makes a very large difference for things that work off of total on-paper damage, too, like Maximizer, or Fenrir's lifesteal.

I do hope they fix the bug sooner than later, and reconsider having it affect DoTs. Ricochet affecting DoTs just feels gratuitous and redundant, considering the existence of Chemical Hazard, and doesn't make a lot of logical sense, either. What exactly is "ricocheting around inside the mech" when a tick of acid or fire procs the effect?

[mint sand]

Perfect write up, your exactly correct

[mint sand]

Almost

[viscid mirage]

Seeing “fixed bug” and “ricochet” in the same sentence got me so excited

[mint sand]

Fr..

[junior spruce]

That one was certainly a surprise. I feel like calling that a bug isn't even accurate in the first place; a typo would even be a stretch. It's like they simply forgot that Ratchet Thompson already existed when they created Sora Sing, and updated the text of "her" signature skill.

[midnight cedar]

Omg thats how i kept getting killed by those people using crutches..

Makes sense now

[rose timber]

I don’t think yall know how ricochet works! Everytime you hit a module with a bullet fired per module of your own you get a 15% chance to ricochet to all modules. This does not double the damage. The same amount to one module per bullet is then done to all modules.

This also does NOT count for burn damage or abilities done by torsos. Please read and test! Y’all keep complaining about stuff that isn’t real. Also the hero pilots ALL have another pilot that do the same thing. If you’re just noticing this then stop now! The point of hero’s is to have versatility on all skills to change. Sora sing godly ability is the fact she can combine the corrosive/ burn duration and damage with ricochet. Learn the game

[rigid marten]

💀

[viscid mirage]

0/10
ragebait used to be believable.

[mint sand]

Im replying anyways

[mint sand]

Im not gonna make you believe me off words alone; read the top post, it has all the possible evidence you could need

[viscid mirage]

It’s so simple to check, too.
Destroy enemy in shooting range without using ricochet.
Write down TTK.
Destroy same enemy in with the same weapons in the shooting range with ricochet.
Compare TTK to previous TTK.

[mint sand]

Yep; if the ttk is literally any different at all, its hitting the same module twice

[rose timber]

IT SAYS TO ALL MOGULES!!!!!

It’s suppose to do that

That isn’t double damage that is literally in the text dudes READ!

[viscid mirage]

So you’re saying it makes sense to have this pilot skill function the exact same as the sharpshooter skill, but simply better?

[mint sand]

Close

[rose timber]

You’re literally complaining about a 15% chance

[mint sand]

It says

to all other modules

Not

to all modules

[viscid mirage]

Aight, have fun with this guy, Sur.

[mint sand]

Theres a very distinct difference

[viscid mirage]

🫡

[mint sand]

🫡

Defending justice!

[mint sand]

Have you had a chance to READ!! this reply yet?

[rose timber]

Yall wonder why yall struggle at the game lol 😂

[viscid mirage]

Ok

[mint sand]

So, thats a no then?

[rose timber]

What’s yall in game name lol I want to face yall and turn yall into jokes! Yall can’t play the game so you complain about everything

Yall can’t read and complain about a 15% chance to ricochet in all modules

[mint sand]

In all other * modules

Its okay, youve almost got it right

[rose timber]

ALL modules!!!!!

Learn the game

[mint sand]

Are you this bad at baiting or are you genuinely blind?

Read the last 3 words in that screenshot

Type it here

[rose timber]

It doesn’t double the damage bud

It literally doesn’t pop up all multipliers on damage

[mint sand]

Talk after you do this

[rose timber]

Yall just raging bc yall suck at the game

[mint sand]

Whats your name?

[rose timber]

Literally the name you see

[mint sand]

Odd that ive never seen your name before

Are you in gold and under?

[rose timber]

lol prob don’t see me bc you’re too low of a rank

[mint sand]

I only play noachium 6 stack lobbies

[rose timber]

😂

[viscid mirage]

in emerald
“too low of rank”
doubt

[rose timber]

So you face bots

You literally can’t find 6 stacks anymore so you wait for 5 min t9 face bot:

[mint sand]

On NA theres not bots in 6 stacks

Just on asia

What league are you btw?

Bronzes usually dont know how to read but silvers are better at rage baiting i think

[rose timber]

Type yalls in game names lol

[mint sand]

Which one you think @viscid mirage ?

[mint sand]

Bud your lookin at em

[viscid mirage]

I think you’re right with gold, but maybe they clawed their way up to plat

[mint sand]

Doubtful, you play solo queues on NA cdntral right? Youdve seen em

[viscid mirage]

Funny what this thread devolved into

[mint sand]

Ikr

[viscid mirage]

I’m not good with names

[mint sand]

I mean hey trolls also dont know how to read often

It could be both idk

No pressure if your gold though, its alr

We all been there

[viscid mirage]

I think the teacher is gonna yell at us

[mint sand]

Fishy is a knower, dw :)

[rose timber]

The fact yall say yall never seen my name shows yall don’t play much. Was top 30 in the world last rank and still known as one of the top players. Y’all can’t handle better people

[mint sand]

Havent answered us yet btw

[viscid mirage]

Top 30 out of like 3k. Nice 😎

[mint sand]

Whats your league

[mint sand]

Top 30 at whaling 🫡

And having no job probably

[rose timber]

Omg lol 😂 yall are just sad

[viscid mirage]

Anyways…

We’ll keep informing the devs about bugs and you can keep crying about how everyone is crying. Deal? Deal. 🤝

[rose timber]

I’m in now get on lol

[viscid mirage]

I got shit to do. You ain’t that important😭

[mint sand]

Trolls: “Yall are wrong because x!”
Sanity- heres proof of x
Trolls: im not gonna read that part- your wrong!!

[viscid mirage]

I should’ve left the house 5 min ago but I was distracted by this chat. lol

[mint sand]

Lol fair enough

I gotta shower and get dinner started now

[viscid mirage]

Good luck with your matches. 🫡

[rose timber]

Yall cowards that you won’t put your tag here lol it’s okay enjoy sucking at the game

[mint sand]

We already told you our name..

Oh right i forgot, they cant read

Fair enough, I suppose

[rose timber]

I’m literally typing as I’m playing lol and still winning matches

So recap on your names lol

[mint sand]

Scroll up

[viscid mirage]

Sur, you’re right. He’s gold

[mint sand]

Lol really?

It all makes sense now

[viscid mirage]

Typing while winning matches

Either that or it’s the aimbot

[rose timber]

Aww you guys just mad yall

Keep being bad at the game

[mint sand]

Gold, trolling, inability to read, says he was top30 but cant prove anything

As if that impacts his ability to make educated decisions

Or partake in the conversation

[mint sand]

Anyways, later. Ill welcome a conversation after you read the last 3 words here

[rose timber]

Bros names are sur and Rynen I’ll make sure to have all too players look for yall and make you suffer lol 😂 yall just suck at the game and have to find things to complain about! Yall prob complained about locus too I bet 🤣

I’ll look for y’all don’t worry

[mint sand]

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

[mint sand]

Gotta get to noachium and find 5 friends first

[rose timber]

Lmao yall don’t really know who I am and it’s funny

Yall play 6 stacks bc yall suck lol

Soloque and I bet you’ll run into all matches and rage

[mint sand]

@knotty summit mind hopping in here? Derailing the thread, unable to argue, pointless trolling, etc.

Cant forget unable to read*

[rose timber]

Hahaha fish sticks knows me lol

Do yall play with kinggio or any top players 😂

Yall are sad

I’m already taking to a few guys and they know you SUR lol 😂 you’re a no body

[mint sand]

Whenever hes on yep, hes another 14yo around here with an even bigger and wallet than you

Tell em to focus me

Get that ego goin brotha

[rose timber]

Lmao 🤣

Yall are sad

@cold slate

@red bobcat

@vale flint

[mint sand]

https://tenor.com/view/power-rangers-break-gif-26320953

[rose timber]

Yall sad

[mint sand]

14 yo’s when theyre unable to make an argument: quick bois, join me in here!

[mint sand]

Hiya suns 👋

It do be crazy how high you can get in the lb by reaching into mommas purse

[knotty summit]

theres no need with the personal comments here, but since the mesa/locust bp update, ricochet's mechanism did get changed.

it went from originally ricocheting to all other modules to ricocheting to all modules, which means its hitting the initial target module again for a second hit from one shot

I had written all about its new mechanisms changes here with videos and explanation for proof:
#1402488151041118249 message

[shadow idol]

https://tenor.com/view/funny-gif-21510495

[midnight cedar]

i never see them and i mostly play on NA

[mint sand]

its alright; he cant make up his mind on if all his friends know me or if im known by nobody. I genuinely thought it was a troll at the end there, nobody makes this many consecutive incorrect objective statements.

[mint sand]

https://tenor.com/view/funny-gif-21510495

[midnight cedar]

it's just immaturity. best ignore & let them boil.

[mint sand]

agreed

[solemn trail]

Mhm totally

[flint matrix]

Let's move on please. There is no need to fuel the flame again.

[shadow idol]

Soooo how's the weather?

[junior spruce]

"...all other modules..."

[south crater]

Still shocked they went through with this change.

[mortal dagger]

Hi there, sorry the fix didn't make it into today's update. I'll check if there's a chance it will be addressed in the next hotfix.

[flint matrix]

Isn't this supposed to be fixed in Season 3?

[mint sand]

I will be a very happy man if its out next hotfix

[shadow idol]

John War Robot will be very pleased

[unkempt sedge]

It getting fixed?

[grim thunder]

#1405942904781803561 message

[unkempt sedge]

Peak

That someone who's never touched or used that ability I'll be happy to use it finally

Cuz I'm one of those people who never use stuff that's overpowered or broken until it is nerved

[mint sand]

@grim thunder can you pin these messages? Seen some ppl enter this chat but not see the important bits

Orig post / evidence: #1405942904781803561 message
How it affects gameplay: #1405942904781803561 message
CM response: #1405942904781803561 message

[junior spruce]

Patch notes have no mention of fixing the Ricochet bug in the bug fixes section. The balance changes section mentions nerfing the trigger chance from 15% to 10%. Surely that is not their idea of "fixing the bug", is it?

[unkempt sedge]

💔

[junior spruce]

It really doesn't feel like that "fix" needed this many months to cook. Really hoping (but not necessarily expecting) that they just forgot to mention the actual fix, or that it somehow got delayed even further into a follow-up hot fix or something. This is pretty ridiculous, though I guess not entirely different than how they handled the Griffen.

[real parcel]

This is ridiculous, I've been keeping an eye on the game to see when this is getting fixed so I might consider start playing again. Can't really say that I got much hope anymore after seeing that all they did was reduce the chance from 15% to 10% which utterly ignores the entire problem with the talent in the first place.

[viscid mirage]

Yeah. Disappointing.

[mint sand]

Its also not enough to keep it out of the meta

Very dissapointing

[shadow idol]

https://tenor.com/view/get-a-load-of-this-gif-2218387369813418815

[cold slate]

Buff locust

[mint sand]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-yoink-gif-26015429

[mint sand]

Ricochet bug; double hit

[cold slate]

Buff locust

[cold slate]

Nerf bisectors

[steel hornet]

[unkempt sedge]

Only if they buff Ceres back

[cold slate]

Nerf ravana cd

[unkempt sedge]

Hmmmmm

[cold slate]

Buff moxie

[unkempt sedge]

Hmmmmmmmm

Only if I was a pilot

[cold slate]

Buff locust

[cold slate]

Buff locust

[mint sand]

if they buff locust before fixing ricochet bug I will quit this game

[unkempt sedge]

I'm just won't pay money

[tulip perch]

What?! Ricochet bug not fixed in season 3, just a lazy chance decrease! Sheesh.

[real parcel]

Seems unlikely to change at this rate 🙁

[glacial herald]

How’s ricochet going btw

[cold slate]

Buff locust

[viscid mirage]

Buff locust. Remove ricochet

[cold slate]

If that's the case then sure :p

[south crater]

honestly ricochet should just be reworked to a 10% chance to hit the same part once

instead of hitting every part

[cold slate]

Actually no

Nerf bisectors

[cold slate]

Just make it exclusive to flame and corrosive

We have some skills that are like that

[south crater]

i think itd be better for only ballistic weapons

corrosive already has a specific t5 quirk irc.

ballistic is the only one that doesnt

[keen kite]

Remove ricochet

balance anything lacking afterwards

[mint sand]

so much variance in any given skill is not fun for anyone

10%^2 or 15%^2 to 1tap someone, still frustrating regardless of the frequency

[viscid mirage]

both crit chance pilot skills should be removed, but they probably won't do that.

[midnight cedar]

Wait now that i think about it ricochet is literally crits

Omg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1007565959944470548/1424105566888001598/6059715F-77F8-48E6-84CF-2E83456ED822.gif

[viscid mirage]

crit chance has no counterplay and I wish it didn't exist in pvp games.

[midnight cedar]

Why should DOT have crits??

Locuts should be a good gun without ricochet yet its horrible

[viscid mirage]

I only just realized how much worse it is that DoT can crit. At least you can avoid direct damage. DoT is already attached to you and you have literally no way of avoiding it.

[midnight cedar]

Dot crits are why i keep dying in my snipers

Why i quit until locust was nerfed

Ricochet needs a rework so it isnt literally constant crits

From what ive seen with gio using their locust ricochet its op with it cause of how many pellets it shoots then the dot from all of the different pellets

[viscid mirage]

the DoT isn't affected by the number of pellets. you just need one pellet from each gun for full DoT. (unless they finally fixed DoT)

Locust DoT is op with ricochet because it affects individual parts and therefore has up to 6x higher chance to trigger crits.

[unkempt sedge]

Merp

The devs right now

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/502490805764751362/1275899625575944353/attachment-3-2.gif

[mint sand]

Yerp

[keen kite]

Dot crits os why locust was so Abusable anyways

[mint sand]

Yeap

[midnight cedar]

I pointed out something similar to this and I basically got shot at lmao

[keen kite]

lm hidden f ao

[cold slate]

Crossout lol

[cold slate]

Horrible without ricochet is correct

[cold slate]

Calm down with my locust :p

Nerf bisectors then we talk

Bisectors does insane amount of damage

I tried purifier with 4 bisectors and i did 60k a pop 🙂

[steel hornet]

#1423421939804012676 message

[midnight cedar]

Me dont use bisector with purifier

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1114408341293252608/1313206810135629915/1182080661226524713-1.gif

[mint sand]

yeah but it also requires a modicum amount of aim even with ricochet

with ricochet locust you can close your eyes and sneeze blindly and they still die

[cold slate]

So you want to compare a bisectors weapon that can brawl when locust can not?

Like there's counters and stuff

Overall nerf bisectors and suppressor :p

[unkempt sedge]

That's a thing?

[cold slate]

There's a heavy build

Try with Washington lol

My lord the duration and damage boost

[cold slate]

Ravana legs with 4 bisectors and no modules

[unkempt sedge]

I run the default assault lakes you get the beginning of the game with tyr Raven shoulders and four bisectors

With Sprint reactor and iron vlit

[cold slate]

How was it?

[unkempt sedge]

Once you start getting maximizer going you just rip and tear until it is done one after another after another

I should probably get a pilot that kills someone for 7,000 armor every time I kill someone in close range

[cold slate]

Maximizer is extremely good

[unkempt sedge]

But it's either I get infinite shield or I get infinite armor and I have tyr so I went with infinite shield

Four out of my five robots are combat medics

[cold slate]

Medics are always needed

[unkempt sedge]

Exactly

[cold slate]

I remember season 1 when people started using heal and that actually help the tide of the battle

[unkempt sedge]

Mhm

[cold slate]

One side without heal tend to lose is what I mean :p

[unkempt sedge]

Ik

[mint sand]

locust is a short range shotgun that is weak to shields. its definitely not a midrange nor longrange weapon, and obviously not a flanker since it struggles against shields too much

it has complete and utter reliance on ricochet and it turns it into a brawler weapon

[cold slate]

Whats 150-200m

For me personally I don't like to brawl

I tend to be in the back poking whoever is small and without shield

[cold slate]

Stating is a brawler weapon is not true

True brawl build are agile build with maximizer

Tanks with bisectors

[mint sand]

yes because tanks are agile builds with maximizer -_-

[cold slate]

And spiders with shotgun with the movement they have breaking necks

[cold slate]

ION is a good example

[mint sand]

tanks usually dont run maximizer and are obviously not agile

better to run damage reduction or parameter increases like will washington

or lean into the damage

[cold slate]

Small builds with maximizer

[mint sand]

True brawl build are agile build with maximizer

i think you just misunderstanding the meaning of brawl

[cold slate]

Brawl as like good on a one vs one?

[mint sand]

when an agile phantom lighter with maximizer comes at you

is he brawling you?

[cold slate]

No lol

[mint sand]

right of course

easiest way to think of the definition of brawl is just any time where you are shooting the enemy while they are simultaneously shooting back at you, within ~200 range (as snipers trading hits is arguably not really brawling)

when phantom ligher comes at you your not trying to shoot back at them yet, your trying to retreat to your team to force them to teleport back

[cold slate]

Why pair with a useless bot to a brawl?

Let's talk meta lol

[mint sand]

am confused on ur question

are we looking at the definition of brawl still or back to locusts or something else?

[cold slate]

The problem with the phantom is that they have no boost when you are flanking

[mint sand]

wdym by boost

and they = you in that context?

boost = fuel dashing i presume?

[cold slate]

Damage reduction, damage boost, and so on

[mint sand]

oh so like team aura effects you mean

like ceres heal, ravana dr, griffin scramble

[cold slate]

Maybe if they added some type of invisibly for the first 5 seconds then maybe is viable

[mint sand]

yeah I mean, phantom is not meta right now, if thats your question

but flankers in general do provide team-wide value

just not in an obvious way

[cold slate]

Self

[mint sand]

and flankers are paper as tanks are scissors

so flankers cant flank tanks

and since every1 rn is a tank

flankers in general rn are not picked often

[cold slate]

In a team you need a mixture of tanks and flankers

[mint sand]

of course

in a proper balance state, you need a balance of all roles

dedicated tank, off tank, flanker, dps, support

right now you can get good dps on dedicated tanks (bisectors or ricochet x anything)

or good heals on off tanks (ceres)

so theres no other roles for flankers to really target

[cold slate]

[brittle ridge]

i love how mentionning bisectors apart feels so wrong ... yet so true

[junior spruce]

Bisectors are just fine without Ricochet. Scatters feel a bit anemic without Ricochet, though. They certainly don't "need" the bugged extra damage, too, but the basic, expected Ricochet is extremely good for them.

[mint sand]

Right, just to clarify, this is why the msg was

bisectors or ricochet x anything

meaning you can take bisectors

or,

you can take ricochet + like pretty much any brawler weapon

and turn your tank into a tanky dps

[mint sand]

@mortal dagger just wanted to politely bump this thread. I see its still got the Noted tag, but the exploit remains a keystone in the meta right now. So just want to confirm that the change from 15% to 10% chance is not the only change headed to Ricochet this season? Thanks!

[brittle ridge]

If you think bisector are fine, you are a problem

They are extremely strong and outperform any other cqb weapon

[mint sand]

By fine w/o R* he means their performance is high enough without it

[small musk]

I figured tanks would be rock, assaults scissors, and flankers paper

[junior spruce]

Flanker weapons are often high burst damage weapons, with less impressive sustained performance. Tanks often have enough health to survive that initial burst.

[mint sand]

Paper beats rock and flankers dont beat tanks

Dps is meant to beat tanks

Tanks meant to beat flankers

Flankers meant to beat dps

If we ignore the support role

Which kinda makes it more complicated

[small musk]

I see, what about snipers?

[mint sand]

Meant to poke anyone that isnt a tank

[junior spruce]

Or even tanks, honestly. Provide constant pressure to an area, and finish off low-health targets.

[mint sand]

They do so little dps to tanks though

Keeping their shields at 0 is certainly beneficial though

And may as well hit them if they are all you have LoS on

[mint sand]

In reference to R*

[mint sand]

Need ricochet fix pretty desperately for next update otherwise Chain Overload is going to be absurdly toxic

[small musk]

Indeed
8 Times is ridiculous

[unkempt sedge]

Man I can't wait to have infinite ghost turrets

With maximizer so I can make passive shield Regen on top of my current shield Regen

[small musk]

Ohno

[unkempt sedge]

That's what we call passive income or a side hustle

[junior spruce]

The same thing occured to me, too. I legitimately don't understand why it hasn't been fixed at this point. It's pretty far beyond ridiculous.

[mint sand]

Yeah :/

[glacial herald]

IMO I think ricochet was the main problem during the locust meta. Yes locusts were really strong but probably not as powerful without the ricochet

[mint sand]

for sure

[viscid mirage]

90% damage buff tends to do that to things

[junior spruce]

It was an exacerbating factor for sure, but I think locusts were strong enough that they still would have been a fairly game-breaking problem without it.

[mint sand]

theyd still be meta without it but not game breaking

[tulip perch]

Just rework the frickin Richochet lazy devs sheesh.. This has been going on for a very long time. Sora and Bisectors are killing everything.

[void beacon]

Have they given any reason why they haven't fixed it? I know they've admitted the double hit is not intended but is there something critical that has kept them from fixing it.

[south crater]

Could be that changing it breaks other things, and there are some significantly more important bugs to be squashed

[mint sand]

Ricochet was the scourge of the meta for all of season. It was absolutely a critical bug fix.

At least now that its nerfed, people think its no longer S tier and so its less widespread and the fix isn’t as critical.

[south crater]

The nerf is a temporary fix till it can actually be fixed

[mint sand]

But, the bug is still an absurd level of randomness in all builds and is still a better Sharpshooter for armor (in addition to the intended ricochet mechanic)

[south crater]

Which i get

Ricochet has always done a bunch of damage. Its just a tad bit more on the main component now

[grim thunder]

Since we’ve had so much discussion on prime ricochet (~400 messages), i wish we could have some data on how ricochet is after the slight nerf. Like how is ttk after the nerf. I am sure most ppl still think of it as a double damage bug.

[mint sand]

#1405942904781803561 message
If yall can convince fish to test 1punisher ricochet @ 120fps again ill get the bullet count

I dont own ricochet so cannot test it personally

The dps diff for single target weaponry should be 10% now instead of 15% as the actual bounce mechanic is not relevant if your only targeting one module

[south crater]

funnily enough, zero impact in the testing range

still 6.78

on a alpha

makes you wonder if the bug is visiual or something else is at play

[mint sand]

Could test it on the multi-module-targeting stuff like scatter/incin/locust but theyre fairly subject to rng so harder to get an objective recording with average luck

[mint sand]

How many bullets remain when alpha dies

[south crater]

takes 1 mag

[grim thunder]

If ur PC is stronk enough and since u will surely have punishers, would u also please help us in getting videos that Sur might describe?

[south crater]

so 0

[mint sand]

And thats with oroching the shields?

[void beacon]

Id argue against more important bugs this has literally lead to a ton of people not playing consistently or at all. That's about as big as it gets

[south crater]

sure, mind giving me a bit, doing college stuff atm

[mint sand]

No rush

[south crater]

ill make a spread sheet of with and without pilot

if thall help

[grim thunder]

I am on a laptop lol so i think i can get max 60fps in the testing range lol

[mint sand]

Go to the very top message and see how Fish tested it

1 punisher only

Orochi the torso right when you start firing

[south crater]

more punishers gives a better overall result

[mint sand]

Less is better because it draws it out over longer time

[south crater]

not really

getting a large sample size of damage done and ttk

gives a number

that number can be converted into a score

a average score from both with and without could help paint a better picture, aka statistcal anylalisis.

[mint sand]

It can work either way but getting the same number of bullets over a longer period of time makes it less prone to sporadic fps changes

[south crater]

ye i get fps changes

but the devs confirmed that is isolated

server side fps doesnt have a effect

[mint sand]

Its confirmed by another source that fps does affect fire rate

So

[south crater]

really

[mint sand]

Trust, do the same test fish did please :)

[south crater]

i will

might be like a hour, bull ill make a excel sheet of damage done, ttk, fps, and with or without ricochet

again, i just want to get a larger sample size then one or 2 comparisions

[mint sand]

Sure but also make sure to record it so I can get the exact frame they die and get the # of bullets to kill

[south crater]

gonna have to make a new folder for that on my pc lol

this will be an all day thing from the sounds of it

[mint sand]

The reload will spoof the difference such that 1% quicker ttk wont be equal to 1% more dps so using a bullet count is more accurate to remove the reload from the equation

[south crater]

on my current max level build, it take a full burst to kill the alpha

uses all 550 rounds

already did a thing like that

but ttk varies in the 0.0# range, from 6.78 to 6.75

[mint sand]

Exactly 110 x 5 rounds to kill would be surprising

It will probably actually be closer to 100 x 5 then

Also using 1 punisher instead of 5 also means theres 1 bullet per frame instead of 5

So the margin of error can also be smaller that way

[south crater]

yes and no. thats were hp over math comes into play

all bots in the range are level 1 correct

if i have to make a whole thesis paper i will lmao

[mint sand]

Were not exactly sure

Thats the theory though

[south crater]

kiros is it possible to get a answer for what level the bots are in the shooting range

[mint sand]

I can look into it for some specific bots

In the simulation

[south crater]

if you can confirm what level they are, aka compar damage to one part and the hp at level 1, thatd be great sur

[grim thunder]

I can try tomorrow. the CM has gone offline for today

[south crater]

aight, knowing the level means i can give a better picture of whats happening

[mint sand]

The issue is dmg numbers arent very reliable on fast firing weapons, and you cant guess their lost hp from other methods either

[south crater]

zues

or appolo

weapons that do damage over time, but dont inflict dot

[grim thunder]

I guess Sur will want to see the damage numbers and their variability and see the ricochet impact from there

Rather than from how much total damage is being done etc

[south crater]

well ill post a excel file here if thats fine

i want the data to be easily readable

[mint sand]

The end goal is just to get “how many punisher bullets to kill bot without shields” with and without ricochet.

All other math can be calculated from there

[south crater]

and considering im going to run about 30 test for say with and without, so a total of 60 test, posting dumbed down numbers doesnt give a full picture

a whole spread sheet

will

[south crater]

there will be two parts to what im doing, what the math says, and what in practice says

math itll be taking what the 10% on average, give or take, and what if all trigger

[mint sand]

Thats fair, in practice is a bit different

[south crater]

in practice is what the spread sheet will be for

[mint sand]

But in practice is also not whats being studied here

[south crater]

yes i get that, but to understand the impact of the bug, the in practice also needs to be recorded.

with rate of fire and several other major things happening, all details should be tested imo

[mint sand]

Your right but we already know how the mechanic works theoretically and in practice

Doesnt need to be a big time sink

Its like the saying “no need to reinvent the wheel”

[grim thunder]

Well i think as long as we get the data we are hoping to get from Zealt, he could also share the additional data that he is hoping to document.

[south crater]

im already setting the document up

nothing can stop me now

i have a full day once im done my college stuff

[mint sand]

More the merrier! Just didn’t want ya to feel like you had to get all the extra work

[south crater]

more work paints a bigger picture

ive been using ricochet on my build before the bug

and tbh, got nothing better to do

[knotty summit]

reducing the 15% proc chance to 10% has vastly diminished ricochets value literally by more than 33%.

combined with the fact that ricochet already inherently has a 0% chance to work against shields, its no longer the overpowered talent to slap on everything.

I would have rather they removed the double hit and retained the 15% proc chance, but at this point, I think its better to keep the double hit if we're at 10% proc chance now with ricochet to be on value, in my opinion, with the other current unique abilities.

[south crater]

still gonna get a larger data set

[knotty summit]

oh I thought I uploaded a wrong video, but I just got lazy and wrote the result at the end on my second test

[south crater]

some issues with measuring fps with ttk is the scores will wildly vary

but still gonna leave it in

[south crater]

right here, that red one is a outlier

which is why im recording such a large volume of data

one bad one can effect the way the bug is seen

@grim thunder so just noticed something interesting

ricochet ttk varies allot

while no ricochet stays really close

[grim thunder]

I am really bad at maths, but how i interpret this is : the nerf to the probability of ricochet has actually affected it and may not be evident from just its listed nerf.

[south crater]

so im taking cell b, and dividing by cell c, then multiplying by 1000 to sanitize the score and make it more readable

higher is better, lower is worse

red means fury had to be used with ricochet

so there are some outlyers happeing

aka, triggering under the 10%

5 rounds in for both with and without, so 10 total

damage varies allot with ricochet, while without it, its always 175700

ttk is limited by player response without it

will need to see how fps effects it now

[grim thunder]

Indeed since it gives us a probability to damage all modules instead of a single one as per my understanding

[south crater]

yes and no, but with the double hit bug, were looking at it also having a chance to hit the torso twice

the red, is what it should in theory be doing

but the red only shows up once

ill keep testing with different fps now

and see how that impacts the ttk and damage

[grim thunder]

Oooh so are u saying that ricochet is happening less frequently than u expect it to?

[south crater]

yes, making it so fury had to trigger, which is why im doing such a large sample size

as those moments are just as important as when it is bugging out

[mint sand]

Dont use fury, that will obscure ttk if you randomly skip some reloads

[south crater]

*ok now this is odd, under 144, fury always triggers with ricochet

[south crater]

the whole point is to

[mint sand]

Wdym fury always triggers ricochet

Fury just refills ammo

[south crater]

bad wording

but i have to trigger the ability every time now

so fps in testing range will effect things

which explains why i nuke things, even without ricochet

[mint sand]

Assuming you spend 0 time reloading, ttk divided by #bullets should be a constant across every ricochet run

[south crater]

no, not really

[mint sand]

Yes really

Barring some fps variations ofc

When you have to reload thats okay because reload time is a known # you can take into account

When you use fury manually you break that linear relationship

[south crater]

so 10% means a 10% chance, due to it being slightly random in nature it will vary

[mint sand]

The exact moment you use fury matters

[mint sand]

Nope because that randomness will affect ttk and #bullets the same

Divide one by the other

The result will be a constant

[south crater]

it wont be the same if thats what you mean

[mint sand]

But only if you subtract total reload time from ttk

It is the same

Promise

But when you manually cast fury, your total time spent reloading is no longer a known variable you can take into account

Its now another element of randomness thats dependent on your reaction time

[south crater]

there is a very even without fury

[mint sand]

(Ttk - time spent reloading) = time spent doing damage, naturally, time spent doing damage / #bullets fired will he a constant

[south crater]

i can easily go back and redo the 144 test

as you can see, there is still micro differences

[mint sand]

That ttk is with reload/fury reload, not without

And .02s is the fps difference

Its not statistically relevant in the discussion of how ricochet works

[south crater]

hold on, just got 6.52

[mint sand]

Its why you use 1 punisher at a time

To reduce the impact of fps variance

[south crater]

doing a firing test, no fps drop when shooting

[mint sand]

Use orochi, hit enemy with 1 punisher right when shield breaks, record that

[mint sand]

Yes because your fury or regular reload is there

Have to factor those out like i said

[south crater]

not using fury

now 6.43

[mint sand]

Mate your not hearing me

Your not dividing by bullet count

Its not the ttk thats constant

Its (ttk-time spent reloading)/#bullets thats constant

[south crater]

ok, maybe im not explaining it right, im not using fury, the reload doesnt change anything if there are more then 1 punisher, your still getting the same variation just faster and in a shorter time.

itll still take the same damage to kill something

[mint sand]

Record the bullet count and ttk

Your only reporting the latter in these last few screenies

[south crater]

the chart is ttk, and bullets spent. i just forgot to change the title bar

these are without reloads

the red is still a outlyer

[mint sand]

Your bullets used are in increments of 5

There must be a reporting error there, theres no way this pair remotely makes sense
Ttk, bullets
6.77, 550
6.81, 590

Maybe misread 590 as 560

Because that would check out perfectly

And those 4 divided results would all be constant +/1% margin of error due to increments of 5

[south crater]

mustve been 560

mathwise it says so

thanks for catching that

will edit that entry, still doesnt change its a outlier

[mint sand]

I dont think its an outlier after that

Could you resend screeny of the spreadsheet?

[south crater]

1sec

it still had to reload, the build doesnt normally do that

[mint sand]

Ah thats why its not matching then

Makes sense

[south crater]

thats why its red

[mint sand]

Ye didnt know it had to reload

Reload has to be factored out for the divided results to be a constant

[grim thunder]

I’m interested to know what we conclude about the current state of the pilot skill from this exercise

Fishstickers has also shared her evidence

[mint sand]

Fish’s evidence is that the probability is in fact 10%

[grim thunder]

Imagine, her name is Fishstickers but we keep calling her Fish

[mint sand]

Yk something funny is that i tried searching her name and instead I found discord handle “fishstickers” who I apparently share a server with

Since fish’s handle is actually fishsticker_

[south crater]

even the charts show it, kinda, time wise atleast

if you do 6.68/10 you get .668, which if you add that to the 6.68 you get 7.348 which is close to the 7.3 times

some go over, some under

[mint sand]

They definitely do because the first 1.5s is shooting shields where its 0%

[south crater]

yes, if you remove shields its on average 1.5 seconds faster

wouldnt change the scores tho as the number of shots needed would also go down

[mint sand]

Nvm

She used orochi

Shields were already stripped

Shes just absurdly unlucky that 12 hits in a row and 0 ricochet

1 hit in first 16 kekw

[south crater]

lmao

well thats why i ran so many test

as for fps

lower fps means longer ttk in testing grounds

differnce on average from 144 fps to 30 is about a .7 to .8 second difference

so not a small gap

thats with ricochet and without

[south crater]

also when you look at the average ttk calculator, this lines up

[south crater]

there is a double hit no doubt about it. on average its 10% faster ttk and even damage, ofc the results vary depending on luck.

if it wasnt a double hit, only damage would have a 10% increase and not the ttk

[grim thunder]

Remember when i had tried to test with a single rail gun for u?

[grim thunder]

10% faster ttk doesn’t sound too OP to me personally so i hope that more ppl get to know that Ricochet is not as bad as it was in its prime now.

Its still bad

But not as how ppl think it is

[south crater]

a full half second is kinda crazy

if you look at the average times, thats still a .5 seconds

atleast it isnt a full second

tbh richochet until a fix can be made, should be set to 5%

[grim thunder]

Maybe in higher competitive games, that might make a difference but i don’t think the majority of the player base experiences that level of play. So they’re just dying 0.5 second faster.

[south crater]

true

[mint sand]

Xd

[mint sand]

Assuming you have perfect accuracy its 10% dps yes

That is the bugged part of ricochet doing its work

[south crater]

the bug is better with high rof weapons

[mint sand]

The intended rico mechanic is not affecting ttk at all there

[south crater]

which is the issue

and a big issue for me

[mint sand]

If you have awful aim though and you hit a random module

Then your also getting benefit from the intended ricochet mechanic

Increasing dps by far more than 10%

Ie why ghost turret is insane with ricochet

[south crater]

with splash weapons its even worse

due to it triggering more then once

[mint sand]

Yeah locust dot / incinerator dot

Somewhere around +60% dps

From +90% dps in season2

[south crater]

10% is nothing to scoff at imo. ricochet never had this issue s1, so what changed with it

60% is still too much

ricochet, should not work with dot, at all

as even if we remove the double hit

thats still a 50% increase in damage

[void beacon]

While I can say we appreciate the testing they ain't going to fix it anytime soon. They have the numbers and feed back. Its laziness or unable to fix the actual issues easily.

That being said the new robot coming may make this a mute point given how broken that core ability seems to be

[grim thunder]

Ricochet doesn’t work with Core gear damage as of now apart from the Ares for some reason so we’ll know in around 12hrs from now if it’s going to interact with the core gear of the Decker.

[mint sand]

and turret for some reason

Imagine Chain Overload is accidentally a weapon for ricochet's purposes

ffs

i really hope they confirmed that bug doesnt exist

[midnight cedar]

Yes!

[cerulean saddle]

i hope it does

[cerulean saddle]

besides for Incinerator

because they aint stupidly op with incinerator, i should know.

[lament arch]

Nerf everything it hurt my feelings.

[unkempt sedge]

We should Nerf shock trains

[mint sand]

dont need to nerf shit, just fix the bugs that many people are exploiting (cough)

[cerulean saddle]

well i know i aint exploiting it, not like its doing a whole lot for incinerator.

[mint sand]

measure ttk difference for incin in simulation and lmk what you find

[cerulean saddle]

im currently busy, but in practice. richochet doesnt seem to kill super fast on assaults or defenders that dont have a weakspot and totally didnt forget to upgrade the shoulders.

[south crater]

The ttk will be effected heavily by any dot, high ammo cap, high rof, or splash.

[cerulean saddle]

not as much as it does for locust

[south crater]

Locust were a unique outlier

[cerulean saddle]

well it aint doing anything stupidly op with incinerators, as far as im aware.

[glacial herald]

I feel like Sora should be pulled from the store and full reworked like what happens with some other games

[mint sand]

https://tenor.com/view/money-gif-20599512

[grim thunder]

Ricochet does not seem to be working with Chain Overload fortunately

[mint sand]

Whew!!

[grim thunder]

Yes it’s a huge relief

[unkempt sedge]

Huh

So do not tell you what it does and doesn't work with or do you just have to try everything and hope that your gear works with it

[grim thunder]

Ricochet works with the Ares core gear but not the Scorpion or Harpy etc so we were concerned about the Decker. It doesn’t seem to be working with the Decker’s core gear, hence i updated the forum.

[unkempt sedge]

Ok 👌

Is there already videos about how it works?

Like the core gear in action

[grim thunder]

U can try it out in the testing area if u want. I have not seen anyone post videos as such till now

[unkempt sedge]

Okay

[cerulean saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/ahoklollmao-noooo-nooo-noo-no-gif-17139315586294057944

[mint sand]

Serial exploiters rn

[cerulean saddle]

ppppft barely

atleast with incinerators

[mint sand]

what it feels like to fight ricochet if your curious

[grim thunder]

So this case probably cannot be attributed to the bug

[mint sand]

ur right my bad that was actually an unlucky hit lol

[mint sand]

ricochet check

[glacial herald]

@knotty summit guest star

[mint sand]

also in the clip im at about 55% hp not 35%, so thats just over the amount of damage 5shocks do (assuming 0 falloff, which isnt the case, so its definitely a ricochet proc)

[unkempt sedge]

I hate shock trains

[knotty summit]

sorry I did not see the green healing hp, but I like how you chose to say 55% hp because that if you were at 55%, then it would be just above 5x shocktrain dmg, but you were not at 55% hp. you more likely were at probably a bit less than ~50% hp
here's what 51.84% hp exactly looks like (fenrir ability x2), and here's what it looks like compared to your left shoulder and its higher than yours at the point of kill. ricochet did not proc on this

[unkempt sedge]

I still wish that the health color was more linear on the display

[mint sand]

honestly i just thought it looked like a bit more than 50% and you also should note damage falloff

i didnt bother pre-calculating anything to ensure it was over the threshold lol

[unkempt sedge]

Honestly they should just add percentage numbers has like an option fr

[mint sand]

not like it mattered, thats 1 clip in a full match of ricochet procs

[unkempt sedge]

Personally I would prefer raw numbers but I could understand why they wouldn't have enough room

[mint sand]

with that visual aid it looks like around 47% hp then

[knotty summit]

I'd love to see at least % numbers

[midnight cedar]

Good

[mint sand]

Hi Melissa, following up- any word from the devs on the expected bugfix? Thanks!

[icy river]

@mint sand stop pinging Melissa... im sure they got it after 700+++ messages 💀

[mint sand]

you mean 2?

stop trolling please

[icy river]

Is this at 30 fps , like it was earlier today ?

[mint sand]

wasnt even a ricochet proc, I was wrong

enough to kill in 1 hit

thought I had shields but I didnt

[icy river]

She killed 3 with 1 attack earlier ...from Shocktrain ...they all were just spawned ...

Somehow it was going X 4

[mint sand]

rng 🤷‍♂️

[icy river]

Only thing zive seen do that was the old bug and that was X 2

She's using the fps bug ...because if she wasnt why she insta log after I asked her about it???

[mint sand]

you really are a master conspiracy theorist

you understand correlation vs cause?

that was a rhetorical question

[icy river]

Its the 4th time I caught her doing it my bro ...

[mint sand]

so idk why your typing

[unkempt sedge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/264175040659062794/1276166583403806792/caption.gif

[grim thunder]

🤞

#🛠│server-status message

[knotty summit]

[finite cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/soldier-tf2-eltorro64rus-thats-good-gif-24148028

[mint sand]

Oh my god

[grim thunder]

[mint sand]

This is amazing news

[grim thunder]

Yes indeed

[mint sand]

I was hoping they would look at locusts interaction too given it will still be exponential but this should suffice

The biggest bug in the west got wrangled, hell yeah!

[grim thunder]

🤘

[cerulean saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-bad-this-is-the-worst-the-office-michael-scott-gif-15921864

atleast maybe for incinerator anyways

[mint sand]

They will need to nerf chem hazard 100%

[grim thunder]

Well let’s see how things go after the patch tomorrow. Chem hazard is going to start working properly now. Maybe a new thread can be made for it.

When i say its going to start working properly now, i mean, till now only half of the talent’s description was working

[mint sand]

At least that time it wont be a bug, itll just be an extremely overtuned talent given chem hazard was already an amazing talent for dots

That would be where, #features and ideas?

[grim thunder]

Yes indeed as it will be feedback on the true power of the chemical hazard skill once u have tested it

[south crater]

i see this as a win, my builds arent really too effected by this.

itll just prefrom as it did s1

[unkempt sedge]

So are they going to rebuff it back to 15% or leave it at 10

[mint sand]

They cant buff it back to 15% even with this in mind unless they change how it interacts with locust

[unkempt sedge]

Did Lucst get a buff?

[unkempt sedge]

What happened

[mint sand]

Chem hazard value theoretically doubled, and ricochet bug fixed

[unkempt sedge]

So what you guys going back to the pilot that was initially designed for this kind of stuff???

[knotty summit]

the devs have stated that ricochet is intended to work with DOT as DOT is considered direct damage.

it was a problem before when locusts did a lot more damage, but after its heavy rebalance, its not I don't think its a non-problem

[knotty summit]

depending on how chemical hazard will work,

previously there was a 68.62% chance at least one hit would have triggered ~420 dmg and with a chance (but much less chance) to trigger more procs from a single DOT sequence

now there is a 100% chance for a bonus ~420 damage tick at the minimum

[mint sand]

we know they said they consider it intended, im not saying its a bug, but i am saying that that interaction is still very strong

it means locusts gets exponential dmg boost

when no other weapon does

regardless of the power level of either, it shouldnt get exponential damage boost when nothing else can

Balance issues overall arise when extreme cases like this exist, regardless of their current balance state

[knotty summit]

I dont see a problem with it atm. different weapons are made to have different little intended perks, as long as its not overtly oppressive. its original DOT damage was overtly oppressive, but now its just good and not overpowered and not bad.

I still think my original proposal is the best solution for future proofing, but now it requires way too many changes, so just let the devs cook with this interaction as long as it helps with current balancing. perhaps they have more future plans we're unaware, and this is the best way to go for that route

[junior spruce]

I still think it's a fairly significant balance concern, since the only pilot that can properly maximize DoT (Chemical Hazard AND Ricochet) is a premium pilot. Not good from a P2W front. If Ricochet weren't relevant for DoTs, it wouldn't be a problem.

[grim thunder]

Premium pilots are consistently getting rotated into the offer-for-credits pool so i hope everyone can get Sora Sing when she too gets offered for credits eventually.

[junior spruce]

That's great for long-time players, but does nothing for players that join the game between those rotations. With how many pilots they've been adding, and how infrequently that rotates, there will be long stretches of time where the only way to get full damage out of DoT weapons will be to shell out real-world money.

[grim thunder]

The game is less than a year old. In the long run and with patience, I hope everyone will eventually be able to get everything that they want.

[junior spruce]

Hope, long run, and eventually aren't really great solutions to avoiding the feeling of P2W / scummy business practice. "Suffer at an objective disadvantage for long enough, and eventually you may get to a level playing field" won't exactly inspire a sense of fair play in new players.

[grim thunder]

If having Sora guarantees a win then surely she is a P2W pilot. I guess we both just have a different opinion and approach on this topic and i respect what u are saying.

[mint sand]

doesnt need to be a guarantee

[grim thunder]

I thought Pay 2 Win meant using something guaranteed a win

Maybe i think of it as something different

[mint sand]

just if it increases ur chances of winning

since guarantee isnt really realistic

[grim thunder]

So its Pay 2 have an increase chance of Winning. Got it.

[mint sand]

yeah, as an example, whats one p2w game you know of?

[grim thunder]

WRM

[mint sand]

or for sake of it, whats the most p2w game yk of

[grim thunder]

I play only WRM and WRF

[mint sand]

does paying guarantee a win in WRM?

[grim thunder]

Yes hehe

[mint sand]

def not, now the advantage it provides is def wayyyy steeper in this game

but the game doesnt go

oh you paid more than the enemy, so now you win and game over ggs

[grim thunder]

U can 1v6 in WRM by having specific hangars

[mint sand]

i get what u are saying but you cant apply the word 'guarantee' there

[small musk]

Matchmaking is half the problem

[mint sand]

guarantee means 100%

[grim thunder]

One of my ex P2W clan mates had scored a 32 kill streak in WRM

She didn’t get the remaining ppl only cuz she couldn’t reach them before her allies did.

Hence, WRM is P2W for me

Maybe because i play an obviously P2W game so i have a different appreciation of the term

[mint sand]

yeah, people at the end of the day have their own opinion on how much the advantage needs to be in order for it to count as p2w

[grim thunder]

This was in the regular beacon rush mode btw

[mint sand]

theres pay to have a 1% advantage and pay to instantaneouly win the match

the latter doesnt exist and the former is rare

[grim thunder]

The definition is misleading i guess. Pay 2 Win suggests u win if u pay.

[small musk]

The problem is the 'advantage' is inconsistent at best

[mint sand]

nobody really cares enough to call "increase winrate by 1%" as p2w

[mint sand]

to an extent i suppose but its just how words work

few things you can guarantee

but we still call them the same

[grim thunder]

WRM has examples where P2W means P2W. Since i come from there, i guess i have a different understanding of the phrase.

[mint sand]

its pretty subjective on p2w's meaning for sure

at the end of the day though, for everyone, their definition is simply the threshold

[grim thunder]

I’ll share an example of P2W in WRM in the off topic channel

[mint sand]

between 1% more winrate and 1000000% increased winrate

in wrf its much lower % than mobile

but anything between 1% and 10000000% is still objectively an advantage

[junior spruce]

P2W usually means, "pay to have a tangible unfair advantage over non-paying players", rather than literally pay to for-sure win. Under P2W, with two equally-skilled players, the paying player will win more often that the non-paying equivalent player.

With DoT-based weapons, two players with otherwise-equal builds and equal skills, the one that has both Ricochet AND Chemical Hazard will have a tangible, objective, damage output advantage over the player that's forced to choose between EITHER Chemical Hazard OR Ricochet.

[grim thunder]

I guess so. Idk how Fury Vega is going to compare with Sora after the rebalance going live in a few hours tbh. I think Fury Vega’s Maximiser skill might give an advantage.

I’m looking forward to Sur’s feedback post.

I don’t remember what skills Ruin has off hand.

[south crater]

can confirm, by builds arent effected

[mint sand]

Not sure wym, if your build uses ricochet, its affected

[south crater]

it preforms as it when it was first made

which is still insanely good

[grim thunder]

Since the double hit bug was addressed in today’s update, this report forum is now being closed. Thank you everyone for your valuable inputs, reports and feedback on this topic. If there is any feedback to be given on the nature of this pilot skill after today’s rebalance, please feel free to create a new thread.