Revenant Major Update - Check in 2

[onyx path]

Tl;dr - Vibes are good, things are trending the right way, and people are building ships and shooting each other. No new changes expected pre-summer expansion.

Hey folks, here with an update on how the... Update is progressing and what we're thinking about and looking at.

1. The MPI is trending downwards. We've only seen a half-months worth of progress but I can foresee the trend continuing in the next MER.
2. Most minerals have leveled off but the most egregious offenders have seen a huge increase in faucet and decline in price such as Morphite.
3. Pyerite is in a weird place and we're watching it. Production has increased slightly, but demand has as well with increased Capital production. There are still huge Mordunium stocks. We're OK with Pyerite being a high-demand ore for the time, but have some potential ideas for the future. No changes before the next expansion though.
4. Metenox changes haven't really landed yet. Ya'll have a ton of Magmatic Gas it turns out. Based on this, we don't really see this as the be-all change and the impact of it may take some time to play out. We've gotten a ton of Metenox feedback and are discussing our future strategy and plans for it, but no major updates I can speak openly about yet. Feedback and ideas are always welcome
5. Capital manufacturing is in a healthy place and vibes are good. We're seeing more different types of capitals undocking and participating in fights than previously,
6. A healthy amount of T3 Upgrades in are in space (250+ and growing) and we have generally received a lot of positive feedback about the sites. There's been a ~+60% increase in Rorqual use as well (hooray!).
7. We are aware and monitoring the impact of demand increase on Molecular-Forging Tools (specifically Meta-Molecular Combiners and Isotropic Deposition Guides) used in Capital manufacturing. Right now, the market tension is in a place we feel OK with, but we will be looking to make some tweaks to this market around the summer expansion

[dim wyvern]

ppl really mining mordunium to get their pyerite? mostly see scordite and r4 ore like zeolites imported from jita.

[onyx path]

Nah it's not that mining has increased, rather than people are sitting on mega stocks of it that they could refine at any point. It makes it a bit tricky to balance things like refine rates further with this as a consideration. Was hoping to see more stocks burned down when we tuned the refine rate previously. There is effectively a huge, unused supply of pyerite out there.

[dim wyvern]

ah i see what ur sayin

[atomic olive]

Probably to keep prices up, naughty naughty
Changes have been pretty fantastic so far, ore going into the mining hold in separate stacks is pretty annoying but everything else has been a breeze

I'm curious about PI activity (how much its increased after the QoL changes), are you guys tracking that?

[onyx path]

I'm curious about PI activity (how much its increased after the QoL changes), are you guys tracking that?
Great question, we are tracking most things but I haven't taken a deep look at this. I'll see if there's anything interesting to share here

[twin gull]

T3 anoms are incredibly good. The revised t2 sites are excellent as well.

[random perch]

😢 Beautiful

Now we just need new mining ships

[twin gull]

Couple things I would add

ORE excavs could use a mild buff to yield. When I say mild I mean mild, like to be on par with a Mackinaw/Hulk under rorq boosts. This would further incentivize Rorqual use without reverting them to the game breakers they were during Rorqual era.

A bit more drone m3 for the rorqual and I’d say we’ve got a pretty good overall mining system (which I did not have in my 2025 bingo card)

I don’t want to see a return to rorqual era, but I do want to see a mild increase to rorqual mining. It’s alright as it is, but I feel a little bit more yield/m3 per hour on a 1b ISK set of drones is an okay thing.

[atomic olive]

Hell yeah

I almost forgot to bring this up, but QoL wise- is there any chance we can get a category for compressed ore? (so if you sort by category in the mining hold, the compressed ore will show at the top, making uncompressed ore easier to track and compress), at the moment you can only sort by name or quantity essentially, which will more often than not randomize the order (ordering by category shows compressed and uncompressed under the same category)

[devout fulcrum]

Ordering by volume works most of the time

[atomic olive]

Hmm, volume isn't enabled by default and I didn't see it, will check again

[devout fulcrum]

You may need to switch to list mode instead of icons

[atomic olive]

I'm using list mode (compact as well)

[minor oak]

I've provided feedback here: https://discord.com/channels/940573867192221696/1360048777695727778

[lucid river]

@onyx path

To your 3rd point.
Is there any issue with just leaving pyerite as a high demand mineral? I see nothing wrong with having at least 1 or maybe even 2 minerals that are in high demand with decent supply available. This way there is always something worthwhile to mine mineral wise.

(Id rather the high demand mineral be something that cant be easily farmable in HS. But with the scape of eve that's probably how it has to be)

[dim wyvern]

Make a filter for compressed ore

[onyx path]

Heck yeah, this is beautiful to see!! 😄

[onyx path]

Luckily I think we're still far off from Rorqual Era. Am taking note of a bunch of mining balance tweaks we can make for the future for sure 📝

[onyx path]

Interesting! I'll pass this on the UX folks, sounds useful.

[onyx path]

No real issue with it as long as the tension is healthy. There will always be a highest-demand ore, and that's ok. As long as the market feels healthy then we're good! We'll definitely leave this one for a bit but we are watching it to look for opportunities and probably wouldn't just increase Pyerite yields directly again or anything. Definitely check in if you think it's in a good spot in a month or so from now as well.

[woeful apex]

@onyx path how about the state of projection?

[random perch]

@onyx path thoughts on new mining ships?

[lucid river]

We dont need new mining ships jebus. There is absolutely no need for any new ships. An arguement can be made for a dread but beyond that, none.

[twin gull]

Stop making me agree with lowseccers

No new mining ships. Current ones just need a few adjustments and they’re fine

[twin gull]

i would like to add we got so many QOL improvements in the last patch

just little things that made it much better

slightly less need for 3rd party tools

[feral estuary]

In my experience, pyrite is incredibly hard to move in its mineral form and way easier to move as an ore to the place you plan to use it. You need gobs of it in industry and it’s a pain to move since it takes up such a huge volume in the quantities you need for large scale production. Then because you always have left overs that are a hassle to move to the market to sell. So you just leave it there. Reducing the volume of the mineral may help convince people to move some of it to market and sell it.

[atomic olive]

Thankyou! ❤️

[lucid river]

Volume of mineral is fine

[atomic olive]

Theres no need but there is a want yes, theres literally hundreds of combat ships and around a dozen mining ships (5 of which are just variants of another)

Sticking to the same ships for hundreds, if not thousands of hours can get a tad boring

Custom skins can give a bit more excitement for sure (though they're quite expensive), but more ships would be nice (even just a mining dread would be very interesting)

[lucid river]

The need is more important than the want

and there is no need

[atomic olive]

We don't need half the stuff in the game that keep a large amount of people playing it
Actual cop out take

[lucid river]

there arent any needs for any more mining ships.
We already have
T1 + hold, T2 + hold
T1 + spped, T2 + speed
T1 + tank, T2 + tank
Cruiser sized command ship with good boost
Large command ship that is in a shit spot
Capital command ship that is in a shit spot
T1 frig thats fine
T2 frigs that are fine as well (dont use as much personally, but theyre okay i think)

What we need is a balance pass again. Mainly for the proc/skiff and then the orca/rorq. Not new ships

[atomic olive]

Again, its a sandbox
And the mining industry in it is massive

[lucid river]

it adds no value having new mining ships

either they will be just like the current ships, too shit, or too op

[dim wyvern]

mining dread gogo

[onyx path]

Poking at some PI. It looks pretty healthy! There's a healthy bump but nothing major after the changes. Feels pretty stable and mostly QoL changes hitting people already engaging most likely.

[onyx path]

It's a tricky one. EVE will always have more spaceships and there aren't as many mining ships as other ships.
As people have expressed, the ships that exist currently fill a nice progression so it's hard to find the perfect fit. I am totally open to it, but it would be likely that there would need to be some new angle to mining that doesn't currently exist which would allow some new ships to fit a niche.

[atomic olive]

Very nice, thankyou 👀

An odd proposal, gas might have to be in higher demand for this to work, but gas anoms in k-space with new ships designed to huff them and carry it might introduce a new and fresh dynamic while also introducing new ships

[lucid river]

Okami, please just keep the mining ships as they are and ingore the call for new ships. The only main ring mining ships needs is a orca/rorq and proc/skiff rebalance

[twin gull]

Rorq needs a minor m3/hour buff and the removal of waste from Excavs

Orcs should have either made into a sub capital so it fits in an SMB, or given a jump drive and turned into some counterpart to the rorqual as another capital indy ship.

Proc/skiff need something either more offensive related or more yield because tank doesn’t matter if you get caught.

[atomic olive]

The status quo is what kills games, I respect your fear of change though

[twin gull]

Like when I say a minor buff like it should mine about 2-4 hulks worth of ore considering the excavs cost about as much as 3 hulks.

They’re okayish as a supplementary ore yield but for what they cost they are way too low.

[atomic olive]

Or reduce the cost of excavs to reflect current yield*

[twin gull]

I’d rather see them be buffed to match their cost instead of brought down in price to reflect their current gimped state.

[atomic olive]

Something in between would be nice at least, but I agree

[twin gull]

I’d say give the skiff +2 warp stab per level of exhumers and bubble nullification. That would make up for its shitty yield.

Might even see more lowsec mining with slippery skiffs

[lucid river]

Im not scared or change

Change is good

[lucid river]

Just dont want unnecessary change foe the sake of change

[terse rampart]

Thing is, it's too easy to slap "unnecessary". A ton of ship were unnecessary and still, they exist now

Titans were, attack battle cruisers were, T2 bs were, all, unnecessary until they came in and changed the way people play.

As Okami said, it would require new angle on mining and so what ? It's far from impossible and there are TONS of suggestions in the topics, from different way of mining to specific roles or larger modifications of the mechanic.

Short range, none-locked mining, drone specialized ships,etc etc

Or we just say that there are already missile and lasers, gallente and minmatar are not necessary, giving more options to people isn't NECESSARY but it makes the games deeper and more interesting

And again, it's not because YOU don't find if necessary that everyone feels like it.

[random perch]

Well said!!!!!!

[elder sage]

Make a defense crystal for the T2 strip Miners. That would allow for swapping crystals to put ones in that deal damage to ships. An entirely new dynamic to dropping a couple of sabers on a mining fleet and taking out the entire fleet with them.

[twin gull]

Triglavian mining exhumer with Kikimora weapons as a third high slot

[tall junco]

I personally find it odd that ORE has more or less fully adopted t2 production on all its subcap ship lines but not t3. Can we hold out hope for a modular t3 mining ship? Perhaps offensive slot can be adjusted between bonuses for gas, ice, asteroids/moons, and logi? I can imagine there would be some hype around a solo mining ship that can overheat it's mining modules.

[twin gull]

I really don’t think we need more mining ships.

The proc/skiff is in a bad spot and the orca is as well. Rorqual needs a very minor tune up with excav yield and it will be perfect.

I’d say give excavs a yield buff and remove waste. Thats really all the rorq needs

Orca is pretty hard to balance since it seems to be aimed at highsec mining (which sucks)

[atomic olive]

Something exciting would be nice
The ore deep core strip miners were really nice though

[lucid river]

id rather they just do another balance pass than add more. Balance pass plus new mining content in LS/WHs

[woeful apex]

+1

'more ships!!!' ok but what role do you want them to perform that is different (not just better) than the existing ones

[lucid river]

There are no roles to fill unless new mining items are created

[atomic olive]

Pretty much
Gas mining could be expanded upon a bit but thats pretty much it

More wormhole content would be great

Lowsec can stay the wasteland it is, no amount of reasonable content will ever change that

[lucid river]

We dont want to add new things to mining/indy because that will make it even more complicated than it already is. Mining should be kept simple. No need to make it more complicated than it already is now

As for content. LS needs more. NS is a wasteland because of nullbrain risk adversity. Yall get shit rewards cause it honestly isnt that risky.
LS and WH need more rewards because it has actual risk

[elder sage]

What is the risk difference between LS and NS? Both have local, asset safety, no concord, and cyno capability. Only SOVNULL can reduce any of those risks for a cost in infrastructure. The only additional risk in NS is the use of bubbles.

[lucid river]

Sov NS is less risky than LS due to no NPC stations, umbrella, ability to move an entire fleet regions away in only a couple jumps

if both were equal in terms of risk, then you'd think you'd see more rorqs mining in LS and dreads running krab beacons (not that those get run that much anyways tbh) but those 2 activities are mainly done in Sov NS because of less risk

[woeful apex]

Lowsec is inhabited by people who are looking to fight

Nullsec is inhabited by people who are looking to build an empire and not fight when within it

Yes the mechanics you listed are the same but other aspects that determine the broader ecosystem play a part

For example nullsec is a lot bigger and has a lot more iskgen from anomalies, which is mostly performed in a handful of systems, so most nullsec systems are empty

[elder sage]

SovNull =/= NS. It is a subset that is already being catered to extensively. Non-Sov NS is just LS with bubbles.

and the ability to totally trash security standings in LS - which I don't understand if Concord does not operate there.

[lucid river]

Yes i know SovNull and NS are not the same

SovNull is vastly safer than NPC NS, which is still safer to a degree than LS

[elder sage]

How is NPC NS safer?

What specific game mechanics makes it safer, to be more specific in the question.

[lucid river]

Its not the game mechanics that make it safer. It just is. Fewer people reside there, or go there for pvp.

HS is where you go for low reward krabbing or mind-numbing pve
LS is where you go for PvP
NS is where you go for medium reward krabbing and being a F1 monkey in a tidi-shit fest
WHs are cancer
Pochven is trash

[elder sage]

Sounds like you want to rank them based on where you want to play. WHs are PvP at it's best. No running the instant a neutral pops in local like LS/NS. You are either the predator or the prey, and some times both at the same time.

[lucid river]

Whs are great for PvP, they got good rewards and its risky, theyre just cancer to deal with and live in. Thats the consequence of em

which is fine

[daring wigeon]

Why would you ever adjust the refine values? If you want to make it more isk per hour then just to change the volume.

[daring wigeon]

Guristas barge; resist bonus + mining drone buff

Angel barge; super fast to warp and align

Serpentis / mordus barge; bonus to tackle for baiting

Sansha barge; AB bonus

EZ

[daring wigeon]

SOE barge, armor resist bonus, gas mining bonus, nerf to CPU so you can't fit 4 upgrades

Concord barge, can use cyno (cloak dis allowed that'd be op)

Edencom barge, slower than procurer unless your vorton hits 10 rocks

Deathless barge; have to have max strip miner and mining drone skills & has a MOT (mining over time) launcher

[lucid river]

Adding ships just for the sake of adding them is meh

cool idea, just meh and unnecessary dev time that would be better focused elsewhere

[twin gull]

Even the diamon rats use Retrievers. No lore reason why they’d have special ships

[atomic olive]

They use retrievers because they dont have their own special ships, not because they're meant to use retrievers

Faction barges sound pretty cool though

[daring hawk]

I mean they do though. Older variants of a number of ships had mining bonuses

And those variants never stopped existing narratively, capsuleers just stopped using those variants in aggregate

Most of the current logistics hulls were previously mining hulls

Navitas and exequoror, bantam and osprey, inquisitor and augoror, burst and scythe all had mining or cargo related bonuses, often both, before they were fully reworked into RR only

Actually scratch that on auguror, it seems to have been the exception

Still they’re prime examples of CCP forcing bonus specialization of ships and narrowing use cases over the years

[daring hawk]

I wish CCP kept better documentation of the old stats and origins of various hulls, at times, as there’s a lot of old things like that that are a PITA to dig up

[lucid river]

Sounds cool, just ccp please dont waste your precious dev time on them

[atomic olive]

Maybe after vanguard and crypto-eve are done they'll have enough manpower to work on EVE again

[lucid river]

Vanguard isnt even the same location/studio as TQ. TQ is in Reykjavik and Vanguard is London? I think Frontier is Reykjavik tho

[atomic olive]

You can still manage 3D artists in another timezone to make assets

[woeful apex]

What you've done is list a bunch of bonuses, not a reason for them to exist

Tell me why specifically we need a barge with an afterburner bonus

[atomic olive]

Old kylixium belts that stretched 120-150km's from end to end would have been a good reason, not anymore though

[woeful apex]

Did you know you can fit prop mods to regular barges too

[terse rampart]

I'll then repeat once again, NO ship were useful when they didn't exist.

Saying a new ship is useless makes no sense. Nobody asked for a copy of an hulk or a proc. It's obvious that new ships must add something, whether in specialization, size or capabilities. Again, it's OBVIOUS.

In that matter and to, AGAIN, repeat, how was the deathless ships useful to the game ? Nobody needed them. Were the triglavian ships useful ? No. The game was doing pretty well without them. Your argument makes no sense and if you look at the mining channel and the threads on mining ideas there are TONS of ideas for new ships, mechanics, modules, deployables, sites etc. Probably not all are good but saying "new mining ship is useless" is (AGAIN) just plain non-sense and goes against every new ship that the game could add.

[twin gull]

Yeah but what’s the point of it? Is there a role to fill?

Mining isn’t like PvP where you have a lot of different playstyles and version of rock/paper/scissors

What are you gonna do, brawl the asteroids with a Serpentis barge?

[terse rampart]

Again, why is more way to play a gameplay an issue ?

why giving more options is an issue

and again, there are plenty of things to be changed. Gas mining specialization, deep space mining, making expedition frigate the base of something, making it easier to try and grab enemy's ressources with specialized "long range travel" ships, maybe have a revamp of gas, maybe another way to mine ice. The goal isn't to have a perfect still standing game either

[woeful apex]

Because it costs development time

[terse rampart]

EVERYTHING does

[woeful apex]

Yes

[terse rampart]

why would this be worse than a new pvp ship ?

[woeful apex]

So you need to have an actual understanding of what problem you are trying to solve or what gameplay you are trying to add

[terse rampart]

Okay, then again, explain why it was necesarry to have deathless ships with their current mechanic

[woeful apex]

'lets add 8 new mining ships, one has armour resist bonus and one has prop mods bonus and one has ability to fit cyno' ok so you spent dev time making 8 ships that still all fundamentally do the same thing

[terse rampart]

it's a question on where you WANT to push dev, not where it's necessary, when it come to new ships

[woeful apex]

I don't think it was 🙂 but at least it's a new mechanic, that affects combat

[terse rampart]

And still you manage to cherrypick things without taking into account the mechanic that could be changed/created for these ships

[terse rampart]

Yes and why wouldn't it be possible with mining then ?

again, nobody is asking for a hulk copy pasta

and if some does, well that's useless indeed

but that's not what I see when I go read threads and have discussions with players

[lucid river]

Mining isn't pvp. Mining doesnt need to have 20 different options on how to mine a freakin rock. There isnt counter play, or counter counter play like in pvp. Its just lock rock and mine.

[atomic olive]

You talk as if they would actually model something new for every variant, and not just do a reskin using shaders

(which is what they're currently doing)

[lucid river]

That still takes time

[atomic olive]

Yes, like- less than 20 minutes

Its literally choosing 5 color options

[lucid river]

Precious time that could be used spent figuring out issues that are already in the game

[twin gull]

Yes, the Tholos is a monster. Cenotaph helps to mitigate PANIC on rorquals so you can’t just smack the butan and afk while QRF burns in.

[terse rampart]

That's not how it works.

[lucid river]

Adding a new ship will take more than 20 minutes.
Its not just a copy pasta. Unless you want it to be an exact copy of an already existing ship which would then be useless.
What would be the point of a guri proc if its a copy of a t1 proc with no change?

[atomic olive]

Bigger drone and shield HP bonus, like every other guristas ship

[terse rampart]

uses that you found out AFTER they were released

[lucid river]

Gotta think, how is this going to affect mining and the ecosystem.

[atomic olive]

People will meme in it
Or they'll just warp off

[lucid river]

Its not just a simple, ope, heres a new ship, have fun. Gotta look at the big picture

[terse rampart]

No but we could have different gameplay for different type of ressources, gas, ice, rock, new ressources, self defense, look at the threads, tons of ideas on how to expand the mining gameplay. I really don't get why people fight to maintain a gameplay in it's exact place for years for no other reasons than "it's not necessary".

[twin gull]

I just don’t see how these would add anything meaningful to mining.

I like mining. It’s pretty chill and consistent. I’m not looking for max APM or doing funky stuff with a pirate mining ships

How exactly are you going to have different gameplay of “lock rock, activate strip miners”

[terse rampart]

And some people enjoy mining in a different way, some want more active ways to mine, some like to afk mine in high sec, some want to optimize everything, some doesn't

it's not because it's not YOUR way that it's not interesting.

[terse rampart]

Again, browse through the threads

[twin gull]

why

[lucid river]

New resources add unnecessary complexity to an already extremely complex system.
Self-defence is already there. Proc/skiff.

[terse rampart]

there are tons of ideas there and i'm not holding all the creativity on earth ?

[twin gull]

yeah and a lot of the ideas are terrible too.

[terse rampart]

ok then again, gallente already have hybrids, don't give it to caldari. It already exist.

[lucid river]

Mining already is as active, afk or crazy as you want it to be

[terse rampart]

Why the Gila ? Gallente have drones

[twin gull]

[terse rampart]

it's as non-sense as what I read here

you want to keep mining simple, that's all 🥲

[lucid river]

Mining should be kept simple

[terse rampart]

why ?

[lucid river]

There is no reason to make it not simple

[woeful apex]

If you make mining complex you know who will be the #1 complainer?

[terse rampart]

WHY ?

[woeful apex]

Miners

[twin gull]

My alliance

[woeful apex]

Mining is low apm, scalable, by design

[lucid river]

Because not everything has to be fucking complex

[twin gull]

The last thing this fucking game needs is more tedium

[terse rampart]

and i'll have to go all the way back and say AGAIN, ADD possibilities

[twin gull]

If you want to micromanage shit go play factorio

[lucid river]

In a complex as fuck game, not everything needs to be complex

[woeful apex]

'add possibilities' doesn't say anything though it's like a milint phrase

Just words without meaning

[terse rampart]

Ohhhh, then remove all the variation of modules, that's too much micro-management for a simple fitting

it's insane

[twin gull]

Look you have

Nullsec f1 pusher
l33t lowsec pvpr
Lowsec miner

All telling you adding mining ships is a bad idea. If the most polarized ends of the game agree something is bad, it’s probably bad.

[terse rampart]

All I read for hours now is "it's unecessary" which we already barred from being a good argument

[twin gull]

There is no “we” here, just you pushing your narrative

[terse rampart]

Hooo because you three represent the game now 🥲

[terse rampart]

because you don't ?

[terse rampart]

You didn't push any argument beside "it's unecessary" though

[twin gull]

https://tenor.com/view/yapping-yapping-level-today-catastrophic-yapanese-gif-13513208407930173397

bye

[terse rampart]

o7

(another great argument btw)

[terse rampart]

That I agree but I don't understand why more variation, progression would automatically make it more complex to a point it's unbearable. I understand it CAN depending on how it's made though.

[woeful apex]

What gameplay are you looking for, though? Mining is resource gathering. You are effectively spawning in resources to the game to either use or sell. It's raw material generation.

It's a very simple process. You activate your miner on rocks, and you spawn rocks into your cargo.

How do you plan to revolutionise this resource gathering mechanic in a way that a) doesn't just massively buff the amount of minerals that are spawned and b) doesn't disadvantage people who aren't engaging in your new mystery mechanic?

Let's say you add a new mining ship, first cycle on every new rock gives doubled yield so you are supposed to lock up a bunch of rocks and change target every cycle. Now every miner who doesn't do this is getting shafted.

You have effectively nerfed the resource generation for everyone who was engaging in the existing iteration of mining.

But if it's more active gameplay that you have implemented but it doesn't buff your returns then why would you do it?

If you introduce this new mining ship with some new mechanic that has the same yield as existing ships that can mine while afk, why would you want to use the new mechanic?

The only reward for making mining more active can be increased yield of the activity which inherently disadvantages everyone who doesn't want to engage with a more active mining mechanic.

[terse rampart]

"plan to revolutionise this resource gathering mechanic". I'm not saying we need to change everything to a new system, all I'm saying is, more variations, more sizes, specialized ships can bring other gameplay around mining.

I don't know why that would buff the amount of mineral spawned. If people doesn't do something, prices goes up, I don't see the issue with that ? People willing to invest into an activity will profit from it with limitations obviously...and ? That's the case for every ISK-making activity.

[terse rampart]

You're taking an extreme example and a very bad gameplay idea indeed, I agree ?

[woeful apex]

Well you need some proposals if you want to have an actual discussion. Again just saying 'more ships more mechanics can bring other gameplay' without specifying literally anything basically offers nothing to discuss.

[lucid river]

Look at the current most "active" mining in the game.
Gas mining.
When CCP introduced the indy changes to where gas was neeeded. A massive bottleneck was created. Gas mining is by far probably the most active in terms of action needed to get gas. Gotta find a WH, scan the site, defend yourself. Gas became really expensive. People still didnt mine in it quantities needed. So ship prices rose. People complained. CCP reduced greatly the need for gas.

No sort of active mining or high APM variety is going to be valuable enough to make it worth it

[terse rampart]

My whole point isn't "push THIS idea", my WHOLE point is saying "it's unecessary" to everything is wrong.

[woeful apex]

Ok let's say you have 100 miners each mining 1 rock per hour.

Now you add the new mechanic and 50 of them are doing the new thing and mining 2 rocks per hour, and 50 of them want to stay low APM and continue to mine 1 rock per hour.

Previously there were 100 rocks per hour in total entering the game. Now there are 200 rocks per hour in total entering the game. So those who don't engage with the new mechanic have had their income reduced by the increased supply from those who do play with the new mechanic.

[terse rampart]

and again, tons of new ships changed the way people play today, and it created issues, and it got changed etc, and so what ?

[woeful apex]

Ok, and I'm asking you, what gameplay incentives would you design to create a reason to engage in your new, unspecified mining mechanic that aren't just 'more yield'?

[terse rampart]

I'm not expecting a perfect system, I just think that adding new things, whichever the gameplay, shouldn't be considered useless by default

[woeful apex]

It's not considered useless by default, it's considered useless because people who currently mine have intentionally chosen to do so because it is low apm and scalable and you are asking to change that in some unspecified way which will invariably make mining less appealing for existing miners who don't wish to adopt your new unspecified mechanic.

If your new unspecified mechanic doesn't offer advantages over current mining in some way then people wouldn't use it. So it is inherent to the proposal that there would be some advantage to people who adopted the mechanic. And therefore a disadvantage to not adopting it.

[terse rampart]

Ok I'll give a flat one, why don't you allow more ship sizes from frig to exhumers. You can modify the yield curve of all the ships to harmonize it while allowing people to use a ship more fitting their wallet and risks they're willing to take when undocking their ship

pretty flat one

[lucid river]

Because the current meta is already in a solid spot

[woeful apex]

Because T1 barges are already cheap, and this requires creating new ship models, new skills, etc.

[terse rampart]

Okay then why do we have destroyers and battlecruisers

[woeful apex]

Ok CCP could create a T1 mining destroyer. But why?

[terse rampart]

frig, cruisers and BS are good enough

cheap, cover the 3 weapons sizes

[lucid river]

CCP Okami, I see you typing.
Can you give us a rough estimate on the time it takes to go through the entire process of creating and releasing a new ship (hopefully that isnt an NDA quesiton)

[terse rampart]

Good question indeed

[onyx path]

I like this discussion and there are a lot of interesting considerations in here! I'll throw something out there - I personally sometimes crave more engaging moment-to-moment gameplay in relation to resource gathering (ie. mining). I think it's a natural inclination for people to desire this. However, IF (big if) we were ever to do something like this, I think we also recognize that people really enjoy mining as a low-apm relatively chill activity and it's super important that we don't touch that element of it. There are potentially other types of harvesting and resource gathering (maybe even new methods, roles and niches that don't even exist) that a more active style of gameplay could fit into better, adjacent to mining rather than replacing it. Food for thought 🍔 (as I eat lunch)

[terse rampart]

andddd I agree with that

I'm not willing to touch the low apm mining. To give an analogy, high pve mission versus incursions or abyssal. Two different gameplays and intensity, different rewards

[lucid river]

While yes, i agree with that. The big question is, what roles/niches would be added that just wouldnt become a new bottleneck similar to how the gas/data exploration items are/were in current indy.
Either it has to be an item that already exsist and is a new method for obtaining said item, or its a new item that just adds unwanted complexity to an already complex indy system.

[onyx path]

I would say it reaaaalllllyyyy depends. If we're making a ship that doesn't deviate from something that already exists in the game and has a clear role/niche (say a new pirate faction ship), the process is smaller. It could be a few months end to end, with design, art and testing. That window gets a lot bigger if there are new gameplay mechanics and things associated with it - even like the Tholos and Cenotaph with SCARAB breacher pods since that introduced some new mechanics. Needed some more dev time and testing to make work so that was a good 5-6 months end to end

[terse rampart]

Out of curiosity and if able to answer, how much people would work on a ship from end to end ? 🙂

[daring hawk]

On the topic of Tholos and Cenotaph, If we’re going to add new ships, I’d say ones we likely need are ships for each of the four empires that have/give alternatives to breacher pods on deathless ships(CCP when they first implimented the Tholos and Cenotaph even said that they wouldn’t be the only ships with DOT eventually), and different bonus sets that allow for different fleet comp integration or gameplay styles

Inb4 someone says we don’t need ships that compete with the tholos and cenotaph even though according to various streams the DOT affects were never meant to be ONLY for those two ships

[terse rampart]

(again taking into account it widely change depending if it's a variation of a whole ship ship class)

[onyx path]

Orrrrr I could add complexity in on area of the game, and improve usability/streamline and solve complexity in other areas as well 😄 It's a tricky balance, but I do want to continue to search for novelty as EVE heads into its third decade without blowing out complexity and worrying about adoption due to legacy systems as well.

[lucid river]

Continuing on with the new mining stuff, if you do make something active, you cant make it scalable by multiboxers because even if it is "active" and its too lurcrative, multiboxers like myself would just take advantage of that (Pochven) and prints billions of isk

POS Code!!

[onyx path]

YEAH! No promises here, but DoT weapons exist now and I am curious to explore them more in our meta. They wouldn't always have to work exactly like the Tholos and Cenotaph either. So super open to this. Have been chatting about it in design recently

[lucid river]

I'm all for new stuff. I just don't want complexity for the sake of new stuff, especially when the current situation is chill low apm, that is scaleable to how you want your style to be

[daring hawk]

MCC Boarding Destroyers when? Hehehe

😛

[onyx path]

😄

[daring hawk]

(I have many opinions and ideas, just don’t always articulate them well publicly)

[onyx path]

Hey they're always welcome. I will never shoot down ideas and opinions. I also have many ideas and opinions.

[daring hawk]

.> so how about changing drone mechanics to be fighters lite, like was an intention way back when new fighter mechanics were added in 2016

[terse rampart]

I'll repeat that in my opinion (which worth...not much) I don't want to replace current mining by something else, just add possibilities for people willing to get involved more actively, try to steal enemy's ressources, have a deep exploration gameplay merged with mining or else. New mining ship classes could allow that. I always felt the "expedition" frigates really under used as "expedition" mining frigs for example.

[onyx path]

What do you like/dislike about drones now - and what makes you want them to be more light fighters?

[lucid river]

People dont like how they amplify multiboxers

[lucid river]

New stuff is fine. Not touching old stuff is good. It is just an extremely fine balance between making it worthwhile for a solo to do vs not allowing multiboxers to just scale the living shit out of it vs creating a bottleneck that has to be adjusted multiple times and pisses off people

[terse rampart]

I got too involved in this conversation, my buzzard was sitting uncloaked at a low sec gate...this topic is dangerous.

[terse rampart]

I agree

[onyx path]

https://tenor.com/view/sweats-gif-25346666

[terse rampart]

Is that you ?

(without the small purple security cord)

[daring hawk]

The mechanical divergence created between fighters and drones with the Citadel expansion(and carrier/fighter rework at the time) broke the logical progression of play style, while leaving longstanding issues with ‘normal’ drone gameplay

I think there needs to be a balance point between keeping some of current gameplay for drones, a relative amount of low APM play, while limiting it’s significant scalability to a point

I’ll send you the bullet point Idea I wrote up and workshopped with Thadd and some others, but the basic idea is to turn drones from single Entities to more actively controlled ‘Swarms’ that partially work as they do now, but introduce more of the fighter control mechanics earlier while increasing the power fantasy aspect of being a controller

[onyx path]

It is me 😄

Maybe if there were sharks underneath too

Or lava, because Iceland.

[terse rampart]

angry rorqual fleet waiting to close their hangar door on you

Weird company that is CCP, playing the space is lava

[onyx path]

Sounds great, looking forward to hearing.
Fwiw I would like to think and examine drones more as well. A personal feeling I have is that they are a bit too low skill/apm for the benefit they currently bring and there is some discourse in design about this. I can see us doing some work here in the future, but I'm not really landed on a clear direction for that yet.

[lucid river]

not mah drones

[daring hawk]

I love my drones but they need adjustment

[lucid river]

drones are essential to my defense in mining fleets

[daring hawk]

I think the biggest difficulty will be the non-combat drones(mining, salvage, and logi) and the combat utility/ewar drones, which could be swarm based in the idea I’ve got in mind, but there’s potential issues to be had with that

Still, bears some consideration

Glad to hear it’s at least on the radar

[onyx path]

I shall giveth and I shall taketh 🙂 But seriously, I need to do some more analysis in this space before we make any changes. Until then I like hearing opinion, feelings and all the things one way or the other

[onyx path]

Thank you for sharing!

[lucid river]

You havent giveth me anything 😦 only taken away!!
Tbf, drones are an issue. Just again, another fine line 😛

I love having the ability to drop 50 drones and assign them to my porp for defense, but like damn. For a solo or 2-3 guys good luck

[onyx path]

I shall giveth *at some reasonable, proportional timeline, to each part of the game in turn as need and interest arises

lol

[lucid river]

so next decade 😛

[daring hawk]

For what it’s worth, the idea I shot at Okami somewhat has this in mind… some things do at the very least need to stay to some degree, like, imho, drone assignment(though probably reduced)

[onyx path]

Exactly!

[random perch]

I still say large mining ships with missiles would be great

You want to hunt and kill miners. You got to work for it!!

[lucid river]

You have to work for it now if its a mining fleet

a small gang will have a fun time trying to kill 10+ barges with 50+ drones

[elder sage]

That would require rework of PG and CPU for all mining ships. That is why I suggested the crystals that can target ships. Let's face it, miners are using lasers to rip apart asteroids, so why not allow them to target ships with special crystals.

[lucid river]

@onyx path
Why does this occur? Probably one of the most annoying tiny things about mining

First cycle always does split stacks, then after everything stacks into 1

[onyx path]

That's a really good question! To be honest, I don't think there is a design reason for it, more likely some tech issues with the way ore is being delivered. I am inclined to log this as a bug and see if we can fix it.

[daring hawk]

The actual energy densities involved in the harvest process should actually already be capable of damage, it’s more a case of CCP at the time of making mining lasers and strips not thinking about that

[lucid river]

Next cycle that does it ill bug report it and give you the number

[onyx path]

Thank you!

[lucid river]

EBR - 37611

[onyx path]

Thanks, I will pass it along

[lucid river]

not an end all bug, but def a slight annoyance 🙂
Thanks for passing it along!

[onyx path]

Yeah definitely! All these little things add up

[twin gull]

I’ve been thinking it was my messing up mining cycles this whole time lmao

[atomic olive]

Nah, even if you start both miners on the same tick it'll do it

[twin gull]

Finally something that’s not a skill issue

[random perch]

I will not be SILENCED!!!!!

[grizzled wadi]

ive noticed it happens when I cycle the two mining lasers at the same time by hitting the hotkeys together but if I stagger the cycles they go in one stack

[dim wyvern]

if mining lasers would instantly turn off when the rock they were mining was dead that would be cool

[lucid river]

they do at the end of the cycle

[grizzled wadi]

that would be super useful too

[dim wyvern]

Yeah that’s why I said “instantly”

[unborn hemlock]

What would be cool is a trig and edencom variant of mining. A laser that spools, and one that hits multiple rocks at the same time.

[minor oak]

Yikes! If developing and releasing new ships takes that much dev effort.... It really makes me wonder about the utility of that as opposed to changes to game mechanics.

For instance, the ships allowed in an ESS and the other rules about the interior of the ESS completely shape the pvp meta inside it. If we change that only slightly, or introduce different types of ESS mechanics in different null regions, it completely changes the meta. With what appears to me to be minor tweaks in the code you could have brand new content available to the game. And it would create a new meta which isn't "solved".

New ships and modules are cool and all, but if they take 3-6 months of work when a new ship is in danger of pushing another ship out of some niche that's already filled...... Idk about that.

[twin gull]

I think ESS should either go up to cruisers -dreads or down to include frigates. Feels very uncomfortable using cruisers + in it.

[minor oak]

I concur. I know the reason why ceptors and other frigates were excluded from them, but making these ships sit out when they are usually brought along for necessary nanogang support or just hunting other targets is a shame.

It's frustrating that you need a completely different comps for ESS stuff, hunting ratters (marauders), and fun nanogang stuff. You can't really do even two of these things well with a single comp unless you refit all the time and make your ceptors sit out of ESS fights.

It was easier back in the day when the rats didn't switch targets on you. Then, you could easily break the tank of a ratting ships which was ideally optimized to barely rank the rat damage. Solo ganking was way easier.

Now, for ganking ratters, you need to bring something fast with nullification, which will probably die. So you follow up with something that can tank both the rats and the ratting ship together while also breaking the tank of the ratting ship. That's.... very challenging without a full fleet that includes logi.

And for ESS stuff, you only need cruisers and above that all have ABs..... and points/scrams aren't even that useful. So it drives much different setups.

And if you want to have fun with nanogang, you need all those support frigates + dessys along with squishy ships that project damage well (BCs or cruisers). The lightly tanked cruisers and BCs with big signatures using MWDs are basically marauder food.... so you can't engage marauders with that.

[dark reef]

Which ships mine small rocks competitively?

[lucid river]

huh?

[dark reef]

You're implying there are no niches in mining outside of what is covered by the current lineup of ships

So i ask

Which ships can competitively mine asteroid belts

where rocks are small and spread

[lucid river]

Any and all?

It just requires a higher APM

If you wanna min/max it then youd pick either the prospect or endurance since those are going to move faster than the barges/exhumers

[twin gull]

competitive mining

[lucid river]

If its not a corpmate you just shoot them instead and remove the competition 😂

[dark reef]

Dont mine close to the same volumes. They're made for being slippery and mobile. They have their niche.

[dark reef]

This just proves my point. If the effort is 10x then its not competitive

[lucid river]

Any ship mines small rocks competitvely. Like im not sure what you are trying to get at

[dark reef]

Small rocks in clusters are a niche already in this game that stripmining barges arent suited for. Rocks under a certain size are just shit

[dark reef]

Cycles waste

[lucid river]

You manually work the cycle. Thats why its higher APM

[dark reef]

100m3 left in the rock, you run the full cycle still

[dark reef]

Thats my point

[lucid river]

but thats not something you design a ship around. Thats something ccp needs to fix by not having small as fuck rocks

[dark reef]

You need survey scnners and identify what lasers are running each ore nd then time the turnoff

thats not competitive

[dark reef]

Or you introduce ships with variety

for the variety of rocks

[lucid river]

No, you just increase the rock size. That is much easier than designing an entire ship based on "small rock size needs to be competitive to mine but I dont want to do high APM with the current line up of ships"

[dark reef]

so your solution here to the most monotone gameplay we have when there is opportunity for flavor is double down on the monotony

Theyre not removing asteroid belts

Theyre not fixing asteroid belts

give us something that can mine them without having to be guessing what rocks in the scanner table my strip is on and whack-a-mole modules so i dont pull big piles of nothing into my hold

[lucid river]

Small rocks are dumb. They need to focus on fixing that over designing an entirely new ship because they made rocks small.

I am willing to bet CCP would rather increase the rock size over design a ship to "competitively" mine a small m3 rock

[dark reef]

They're dumb if the only viable way to mine everything is strip fitted barges.

Its just a difference in opinion. You think all mining needs to be balanced around the current barge meta and i want to add expand it with different mechanics

[lucid river]

I mean if you are so dead set on using a ship that can mine "a small amount of ore" which any real miner knows isnt something one wants to do, then use a venture. 1 laser does 156m3 with no upgrades at max skills, so less with less skills

Having small rocks, and a small yield mining ship fills a role that I highly, highly doubt any significant amount of players want in the game

[dark reef]

Not competitive.

[dark reef]

I disagree

And im not talking small yield.

[lucid river]

How is that not competitive? Its a venture. It can go fast, has a low af mining yield. Thats what you want

A properly fit venture does 340m3/cycle and can haul ass at 2750m/s
Rather competitive for these small rocks

and spread out fields

[dark reef]

You're still better off with barges. The mining/explo frigs have a different niche.

AoE pulse miner, drone miner, something with 6 lasers etc

that have yields close to a procurer/retri

Asteroid belts have clustered rocks

the ventures speed isnt relevant

All the examples i gave are mechanics already present in the game. Isnt like this is a massive rework

its a new module and a new ship

[lucid river]

Its never that simple

Also all mining ships already are drone miners, or you can look at the porp/orca/rorq

AoE pulse miner is a nice idea, but fills no role or niche that isnt already filled

[dark reef]

it would be able to mine asteroid belts more conveniently than barges running dry cycles every 3 mins

[dark reef]

Would need a rework, but turning a porp/orca/rorq into a viable drone miner with some specialized module would count in my book

ill take it

porp / orca sized excavators 🤔

[lucid river]

Barges dont run dry every 3 cycles when rocks are adequately sized.
Also Porp/Orca/Rorq already have a specialized module that turns them into a drone miner. Called the industrial core. Rorq tho, the excavs need reduced waste.

[random perch]

Large mining ship with a vortex!?!?! (Sluuuuuuuup)

The MAW

https://tenor.com/view/whaaaat-say-what-blown-my-mind-shark-gif-15135358

[dark reef]

Barges dont run dry every 3 cycles when rocks are adequately sized.

We've already established that you feel the solution to everything mining is "increase rock size".
The point here is literally suggesting alternatives. You dont refute those by restating the default position my guy 🤣

[twin gull]

I’ll be honest, I don’t want the mining mechanic to change. It’s low APM, rorquals provide content and the rocks are tasty.

I want a moderate buff to the rorqual drone yield and something done to the proc/skiff.

[lucid river]

Alternatives are fine. But designing a ship to "small rock" game is dumb. Small rock gameplay is only a "thing" because ccp messed up and haven't fixed their mistake

[dark reef]

"dumb" doesnt mean shit without more context.
small rocks being a fuckup on CCPs part is also meaningless without more context.

Youre not saying anything... Youre just sharing poorly justified opinions. Youre not countering proposals, youre just restating a deflated point acting like its wisdom

Im perfectly open to my suggestions being inadequate or unpopular but what youre doing is the a rethorically elaborate way of stating "no u" with the swagger of someone who posts so much in these channels he feels like he owns the consensus

say something useful or sit down and make space for the rest

[twin gull]

not sure if ur aware but you can see what rocks you’re on via the scanner table so you’re not just guessing at it.

[dark reef]

Already commented on this further up

If you care to read 😉

I have defined why i think thats not competitive

[woeful apex]

miners moaning merrily

[twin gull]

I mean I kinda take Pixys view here that increasing rock m3 would alleviate all our problems tbh.

An AOE mining module would be nuts. Imagine being able to stormbringer rat ore anoms

Just your idea doesn’t sound very balanced since it’s only aimed at belt mining

Imagine like 30 EDENCOM miners rolling up to a moon and deleting it

[dark reef]

Youve already identified plenty issues that can be balanced 🙂

Taking raw ideas and poking holes in them prove nothing

Im not sure what youre getting at

[woeful apex]

can miners just shut up, thats my proposal

always moaning

incessant

[twin gull]

I’m getting at, we don’t need new mining ships.

They’re ironically one of the few areas of the game that aren’t a cluster fuck atm.

[woeful apex]

just go to the belt in your hulks and mine your rocks

[dark reef]

Let me teach you about the "mute" button my little friend

It will improve your life

I swear it

[twin gull]

[woeful apex]

ye i dont remember seeing any mention of new mining ships in the devblog

[dark reef]

What forum are you in?

Are you going to do this? Really?

[twin gull]

I think we’ll see a little tune up to a few of the current ones tho.

Orca is trash atm
Skiff/Proc kinda bad besides meme ships.

Rorq probably gets excav bonus

Rest of it I really just don’t feel is in a bad spot.

[dark reef]

Ooooh, new features

Wow, it works

[twin gull]

T3 anoms and the T2 rework solved like 90% of the issues we had.

[dark reef]

That was pretty nice

[woeful apex]

constantly 'give us new mining ships and new mining mechanics' when a) the proposition invariably boils down to 'let me mine faster with the new thing' and b) 'i dont care about the existing miners who currently enjoy low apm mining'

[twin gull]

Why does Bazza keep saying things I agree with

[dark reef]

Asteroid belts are still dumb in the current meta

Like... very dumb

[twin gull]

Asteroid belts aren’t really the main source of ore anymore

[dark reef]

Youd have to ask him, i cant see the gurgling anymore

[twin gull]

I mean Bazza is right tho

[dark reef]

Theyre a feature of the game, and prevalent in hisec

[twin gull]

lol fuck highsec

[dark reef]

If you say so 😉

[woeful apex]

spodbrain 500 kills in 15 years

[dark reef]

There we go

[woeful apex]

classic

[dark reef]

I understand now

hahaha

[woeful apex]

'noooo buff the newbie starting area'

[twin gull]

That place doesn’t need anything else. Already have broken ass ISK printers botted to fuck there.

[woeful apex]

highsec needs buffs!!!!!

[twin gull]

Okay now you say things I disagree with

[woeful apex]

buff t0 filaments as well

[dark reef]

Mmmmmhmmmmm

[woeful apex]

to 3b isk per hr

[twin gull]

But only for rifters

[twin gull]

Mate ur in Goons why do you care about highsec.

That place sucks ass

Besides suspect baiting paladins

[dark reef]

Balanced game = good game. A game where only nullsec thrives is a worse game for all

You should take time to try and fight for a balanced game in general. Its good for you

[twin gull]

Nah. Highsec is fine. Low risk = low reward.

Lowsec would be high risk = high reward if the people that lived there actually cared about PVE lol.

[dark reef]

People who complain the game is dead while also fighting against improvements are mushybrained people without the ability gaze past their nose

[twin gull]

Highsec doesn’t need improvements. It’s got

Homefronts (broken asf)
Triglavians whatevers
DED sites

And all for near zero risk.

[dark reef]

HISEC SOLVED

CHECK

NEXT

[twin gull]

Designing a ship and or new module solely for asteroid belts in highsec is a massive waste of dev time.

[dark reef]

Patron saint of bittervets

[twin gull]

It would literally have to be sec locked to highsec to keep it from being broken

[dark reef]

Ill wait for the next guy, thanks for your attention

Have a good day

[dark reef]

Why is it a waste of time?

Since you managed to do one sentence of actually moving the conversation forward ill try again

[twin gull]

Because if you’re going to spend dev hours on a new ship that would only have a use case in a niche highsec mining area that isn’t moons, it will see limited use and overall won’t be adding to the game.

Highsec only = won’t die enough to be a good target

[dark reef]

Hisec has the biggest eve population, all of hisec has asteroid belts

Youre literally targeting the biggest playerbase

Makes more sense than sovupgrades and making sure the 800 rorqual pilots in eve have a site to sit in

And i know youre one of those because you also post so much in these channels you act like you own the consensus

Ive seeeeeent it 😄

[twin gull]

Why should highsec get a new mining ship designed to function solely in their specific environment and operate solo tho?

Why would that make sense at all

[dark reef]

It opens up more opportunity in null too. All regions have asteroid belts.
Lowsec can mine belts instead of trawling constellations for site spawns.

The fact the mechanic exists in a competitive state adds more choices later for mining

If all we ever have is single-sized rocks, then all we can ever use is stripmining barges

because youre designing the game around one mechanic

[twin gull]

Yes but consider this.

You let this thing out of highsec and you’re going to see them get turbo boxed beyond belief as every belt in the game gets deleted

[dark reef]

This. Can. Be. Balanced. Out

You are critizising a rough idea, you can OBVIOUSLY find holes

[twin gull]

It could but wouldn’t it be easier to just make the existing rocks bigger?

[dark reef]

That is the whole point of this

[dark reef]

EASY =/= GOOD

It works for you because you have a rorq and a barge fleet

[twin gull]

This is a solution looking for a problem imo

[dark reef]

That does NOT mean that mining in this game is all it can/should/will be

It just means you dont like change

[dark reef]

The problem is there

Asteroid belts cant be mined competitively

What was the main complaint of the new sites?

Small rocks?

Solution: introduce ships that mine small rocks competitively

Dont pretend im making up a problem here

Time to just stop and admit im right

[twin gull]

You know what the actual solution was they went with? Bigger rocks lol.

Time to just stop and admit I’m right

[dark reef]

"New rocks"

They didnt make them bigger, they added new rocks. Small sites are still small

No problem solved

😉

[twin gull]

No, they made them literally bigger

[dark reef]

Show me where they changed asteroid belts

Please and thank you very much

[twin gull]

Look you’re yapping about the changes from equinox which had fuck all to do with asteroid belts.

[dark reef]

You keep moving your goalposts back to nullsec because thats the only way you have a coherent argument to make

[dark reef]

Im yapping about mining

You move your goalposts

So you dont come out looking like a dumbo

😎

[twin gull]

I’m not moving goalposts at all. I said your idea sucks and that remains.

[dark reef]

If you say so ❤️

Its been illuminating

Have a nice day

[lucid river]

New ships do nothing but waste dev time. Their ideas are nice and cool to think about but that's all they should be.

Mining doesnt need new ships. It needs another balance pass or 2 to adjust its core. Ccp already did a solid pass with this latest update. Now they just need to follow up on it, but they have to wait and let their previous update have an effect on the game.

[atomic olive]

What an awkward debate

I'm just going to throw out that saying something shouldn't be considered because it can be unbalanced isn't useful to the conversation, it would be best to steer the topic in ways that would benefit new ideas (ie, how you could/would balance it)

This channel is specifically to give feedback not just on the changes implemented in the revenant update, but what could still be done

There's nothing wrong with theory crafting, but there is definitely something wrong with trying to silence people simply because you can't work with it

[dark reef]

When the usual suspects that live the best parts of their life in these channels constantly show up to cough up the same non-argument in response to everything that doesnt line up with the version of the game they want to play, i start asking questions

[woeful apex]

ok highseccer

[lucid river]

New ships are fine.
Trying to add a new ship due to a mistake ccp made and make that a new area of game play is not good. Especially when it would be a helluva lot easier to just rebalance ccps mistake

[dark reef]

I dont understand how hard it is to make productive arguments. These tits just dont like change. Why they're in a discussionforum... beats me

[lucid river]

Change is great.

Like changing rock size

[dark reef]

Easy is not good. Them being a mistake is only youe opinion that make sense from the current meta

[dark reef]

Thats not a change

[lucid river]

Back to a mineable amount

[dark reef]

Thats balance

[lucid river]

If it goes from 1000m3 to 20000m3 that is literally a change

[dark reef]

Eeeeh, gameplay change. No

Gameplay balance. Yes

Adjusting existing values = balance

[lucid river]

Regardless, trying to make a change because "rocks are small and we need to be able to, competitively mine them (whatever the fuck that means tbh)" isnt good change.
A better change would be to just rework belts to be in a better minable spot.

Which hopefully they will do on the next mining balance pass

[atomic olive]

They love to talk, which is fine
Its not so fine to silence others

That is directed at pixy and bazza

[lucid river]

Honey, i dont silence people 😂

I do speak up when the idea is poor tho

[dark reef]

"Honey"

lol

[woeful apex]

'give me more mining ships' always boils down to 'make mining more efficient'

[lucid river]

Wanting a ship with a low mining yield to be able to mine low m3 rocks is a poor idea. If you want low mining yield use a venture

[atomic olive]

My mistake, that was purely bazza

[elder sage]

I don't see the issue with the belt rock sizes. I have stripped belts with 2 Macks and a porpoise for boosts and compression. Each mack starts on either side of the belt and starts moving towards the center as the rocks get used. Almost all of the rocks are more than a single cycle of the strip minners.

[atomic olive]

That's completely fine imo

[woeful apex]

why do u want more ships that will require more effort to utilise if they arent going to be better than the existing ones?

its resource generation

its very low apm, highly scalable resource generation

u push button u get rock

[lucid river]

The complaint is that you waste a cycle cause the duder joey cant be bothered to manually cycle his miners apparently.

He wants a low yield ship to "competitively" mine low m3 rocks

[woeful apex]

and ur asking for a new ship that requires more apm

[dark reef]

He can safely be ignored. Just use the feature. Never seen anyone in this discord less worth listening too

[woeful apex]

why do u want that new ship to have more apm if it will not also just be straight up better than the existing options

[dark reef]

Right click

[woeful apex]

?

[dark reef]

and block

[woeful apex]

please explain

[lucid river]

When all you need to do is just actively cycle the current ship line up

[woeful apex]

'i want to do more apm for less reward' seems like a rather silly stance

[dark reef]

Not competitive

By definition

[atomic olive]

That's apart of the problem, I'd like there to be more variety
But as Okami has stated, there's alot of issues around trying to expand upon a shallow yet heavily used system

[woeful apex]

NoT cOmPeTiTiVe

[dark reef]

APM is 5x higher for less reward

[woeful apex]

dont mine the small rocks then lmao?

what is wrong with u

maybe the small rocks exist for people who want to use a venture

[elder sage]

I also don't afk mine or do anything else afk in EVE. Either I am playing the game - which means actively engaging in it - or I am not playing the game.

[lucid river]

How tf is a ship capable of mining low m3 rock going to be competitive.
Its going to be high apm regardless because rocks are small

[elder sage]

Auto targeting mining lasers??? 😛

[woeful apex]

a simpler change would be reduce mining laser cycle time, no?

[lucid river]

Like you want to mine a lot of small rocks fast? Okay, use a mining ship with 5 drones. You can mine upto 7 rocks at once

[lucid river]

That can already be done tho. Boost, and modules

[woeful apex]

it always boils down to 'make mining better'

thats the end goal of the suggestion

always

[elder sage]

You would have to rebalance the effective yield for the base without boosts

[lucid river]

Like an AoE miner would be cool, but thatd just make afk multiboxing so much easier. Id love it, but it isnt needed

[dark reef]

Automining drones, autotargeting lasers, aoe pulse mining

[lucid river]

Drones already automine

[dark reef]

Not competitively!

Jesus christ!

[lucid river]

What the actual fuck do you mean by competitively.

[dark reef]

Are you TRYING to be unproductive?

[lucid river]

Competitively against what

[dark reef]

Viable alternative to the meta

[dark reef]

Barges

[lucid river]

Drones are a viable option.

[elder sage]

Can some one explain to me what "competitive mining" is. Are we now having the rocks PvP back?

[dark reef]

In what universe?

[dark reef]

In line with yields that barges can produce. Not the same, but viable alternative

Lets say an AoE miner that has lower yielda than a barge, but can sit on 4 rocks.

That is competitive with a barge

[atomic olive]

There's no way to balance solo vs multiboxer mechanics in EVE, as the game is built around scalability
Short of making mining instanced sites for a limited amount of players (like a gated deep space area or abyssal site)

[lucid river]

A flight of mining drones can mine a good chunk of ore. Tho theyre not suppose to out mine barges or exhumers.
On porp/orca they get good bonuses that put them near a barge iirc in terms of mining

But also, you do that you just make multiboxing all that more powerful. Which sure fine. Lets buff multiboxing that helps me

[dark reef]

Diminishing returns on aoe pulse lasers, make boosts only affect strips, use drone speed to balance yield ramping based on positioning

tons of options

[elder sage]

We have 3 classes of mining ships, frigates, barges, and Exhumers. Each class is "competitive" with others ships in it's class. We have 3 classes of Industrial ships to support those other 3 classes. I don't see the need to muddy the waters even more.

[dark reef]

Exhuners are t2 barges

They are the same class

Frigs vs Barge

Is what we have

[atomic olive]

Make boosts only affect stripminers? I'm not sure how that would give an advantage to mining frigs
Though if mining frigs became more viable, multiboxers would just switch to mining frigs right?

[elder sage]

Not when they are Omega locked, sorry

[dark reef]

They are viable with their mobility. Frigs have usecases

And dont need to be tuned for asteroids

[atomic olive]

But their purpose is still to make money from mining ore

[lucid river]

Players who mine in eve are some of the biggest min/maxxers in the game.

If the AoE ship doesnt mine as much or more than the current line up, why would someone want to use it?

[dark reef]

Gas and lowsec/wh ore is the frig niche

Running through gatecamps to get to those places

They dont need competitive yields

They have risk-negation

[atomic olive]

Gas is already restricted to frigs though right?

Wormhole ore is the same as nullsec iirc

[lucid river]

Mackinaw/retriever = stay on grid longer
Hulk/covetor = fast bois
Skiff/proc = suppose to be tanky bois but need reworked cause theyre in a shit spot

[atomic olive]

or lowsec*

[dark reef]

No, barges fit scoops

[atomic olive]

Ahhhh

[elder sage]

Hate to break it to you, but not in WH they are not for mining rocks. It is barges. We use frig for gas, but a lot still use barges for gass also.

[dark reef]

My points still stand, you didnt refute anything

[lucid river]

Any new ship has to either do as good as the current meta

Or better

[dark reef]

Look at that variety 😎

[dark reef]

Or it needs to excel where the current meta does not

[elder sage]

I just told you WH is not the "niche" for frigs that you claim. put your clown shoes away.

[dark reef]

I.e small clustered rocks

[lucid river]

Current meta already excels at any and all things mining

[dark reef]

But they feel so good on my feet

[woeful apex]

reminder you are talking to a highsec player with 500 kills in 15 years

😉

[dark reef]

Why are people complaining about small rocks then?

Enlighten me

[elder sage]

They fit you very well and compliment your nose, but they are still clown shoes.

[atomic olive]

Honestly I'd just take different ship model variants of the existing exhumers tbh (after the game is optimized enough to not force anyone with more than 3 clients to use low-quality presets)

[dark reef]

Thank you 🥰

[lucid river]

Because it is higher APM work to mine small rocks. People mostly want semi-afk mining or to be able to let their mining ship cycle longer than 1 or 2 cycles.

You increase the rock sizes in asteroid belts and then reduce the number of actual rocks to preserve total m3 roughly, then the complaints will shift elsewhere

[atomic olive]

Focusing on pvp kills in a mining discussion in a sandbox is just weird bazza

[dark reef]

Exactly! Now tou get it. And your solution is to balance the game around one class of ship and one module, my suggestion is to solve existing problems with variety in approach

And method

I.e the problem exists, we can homogenize the game more or we can use the opportunity to expand what mining can be

[elder sage]

Not really, it shows that the person is single focused and want benefits for their area of focus, irrespective of how it impacts the over all game.

[woeful apex]

continues to be a fairly reliable metric to determine whether someone has a clue or not

[atomic olive]

(also I feel sorry for okami who has to read through all of this for ideas)

[lucid river]

You're suggestion introduces something that be easily fixed with a balance pass.

A new ship to fit mining these small rocks in not a good use of dev time or ship design. Not enough players care to have a ship mine tiny rocks.
Your auto-targetting idea is just a gsteway to rampant botting.
AoE is still going to be high APM
Drones are another gateway to botting

[atomic olive]

About mining? are you sure?

[lucid river]

It can Era

Ship balance and all

Or how it effects the game overall and such

[atomic olive]

Ah yes

• If ship warps before enemy gets on grid, align time acceptable
• If ship doesn't warp in time, align time unacceptable
• If ship tank for x seconds, ship bad/good

Very nice, very relevant to mining yields and cycle times

Mining ships are not designed to survive

[elder sage]

If anything I would like to see them make it more difficult to akf mine/huff. even though it is great to gank a complete mining fleet that is afk in J-Space. 😄

[atomic olive]

Let alone get checks notes more than 500 kills in 15 years in high sec

[dark reef]

"not enough players care"

ill say it again, those of you who spend so much time in these channels will feel like you become the consensus on these topics. Thats an illusion in your head.

Judging the health and preference of a game and its playerbase from the state of its discussion forums is like judging the health of a nation by looking at its hospitals

People come here to complain

[woeful apex]

ok but

lets discuss

changing cycle times

to 10s base

rather than adding new ships

[atomic olive]

I thought that's what we were doing

[woeful apex]

but for mining multiple rocks i assume he also wants more mining slots

and reduced yield

4 miners with 50% yield vs 2 miners with 100%

[atomic olive]

He just wants new mechanics that look flashy

Something new

I don't blame him

[woeful apex]

have we considered that small rocks exist in the game to be** inefficient for barges by design** so that there is something for less skilled players in ventures to mine?

but as always it boils down to

[lucid river]

Its speculation on what I see and hear from people. And from what i understand about mining as someone who started as a solo miner and now multibox it.

[woeful apex]

'i can mine the big rocks fast but the small rocks are annoying and slow, let me mine the small rocks just as efficiently as i mine the big rocks' aka 'buff overall mining yield'

thats what it always comes down to at the end

'buff overall mining yield'

[dark reef]

I run a indycorp. New mining ships is all the rage among our dudes

[lucid river]

Regardless.
Auto-targetting and Drone will lead to botting which is not good, we dont want that.
AoE will still be high APM. So how does that differ from the current meta

[dark reef]

Theyre not the consensus either

[elder sage]

That would mean you have to consider others that don't have multiple Omega accounts and complete mining fleets. Why would those people care about the poor little alpha toons stuck in ventures?

[dark reef]

Im just saying, its eagerly being requested

[atomic olive]

"It'll just be taken advantage of by someone more autistic than you"
Such are the woes of balancing like that

[lucid river]

People can eagerly request it all they want. Until its needed or ccp thinks the economy is in a healthy spot, i highly doubt any new mining ships will get added.

[dark reef]

Dont really accept that as a reason tbh. Botting is already a peoblem

[woeful apex]

it's resource generation, it's low APM and scalable - you click button and you spawn resources. there is very little room for changes/new mechanics that are worth picking up by the playerbase without simply being a buff to mining efficiency

[dark reef]

Shouldnt prevent iteration on the game

[woeful apex]

people do it for reliable, scalable, low APM income

[dark reef]

Bots can target

[lucid river]

It is correct. But lets not add stuff to the game to make it even worse

[dark reef]

i mean

[dark reef]

I dont understand how it will. a few less lines of code in the bots?

Its not a hurdle for them

[elder sage]

Because it is an existing problem, we should ignore that and increase the ability to have that problem expand???

[dark reef]

No, its a problem in the game that needs solving on its own and should not have bearing on how you develop the game

Its not a "mining problem"

[lucid river]

Because those ships are theoretically designed to make botting easier.
Easier means more people will do, or the current botters will just scale their operations

[elder sage]

It has to have an impact on game development.

[lucid river]

And it will be harder to identify and track

[dark reef]

I say "should" because i know i will need balancing around. But solving botting is its own problem.

[atomic olive]

Okami brought up something pretty interesting not too long ago
Jackpotted asteroids that spawn at random, that would make things very interesting (particularly if they have a limited lifespan on the field and despawn after x amount of time)

If would increase overall yield but god would it send people into a frenzy, stopping mining lasers to go after that one special rock might actually balance it out

[dark reef]

That can be balanced around

[lucid river]

It can

[atomic olive]

(also mobile compression depots)

[lucid river]

Make things less afkable and low apm

Don't use mechanics such as Auto-targeting autominer

Or drones

[dark reef]

The current meta is botti g heaven

I dont see why adding similarly low apm mechanics would do anything

[lucid river]

Yes, but it can at least be tracked.

[dark reef]

so its literally a non-argument

[dark reef]

What

The hell are you on about

[lucid river]

Whats to differentiate a normal human running a autominer vs a bot

[atomic olive]

Activation timing

That's it

[lucid river]

Where as a normal human isnt going to function similar to a bot with the current set up

[dark reef]

Youre gonna say the asteroid targeting?

Thats it?

Thats what is the giveaway on bots?

[atomic olive]

Nah its module activation and movement commands iirc

But its usually only looked into to if its reported by another player

As far as I know

[lucid river]

Those are what i know as well

[dark reef]

So autotargeters would literally change nothing for botters

[atomic olive]

No it wouldn't

[dark reef]

Ok then

[atomic olive]

(for as long as the overview window exists)

[lucid river]

Itd just make it harder to differentiate

[elder sage]

No, but that just encourages more afk, not a fan

[lucid river]

And mean easier coding for botting

[dark reef]

THATS WHAT THE CURRENT META IS

THE ONE YOU DEFEND

[lucid river]

With small rocks you cant mine afk

[dark reef]

Not meaningfully

[dark reef]

Which is why people dont mine them

Lets solve that shall we

Hmmm

[atomic olive]

I personally don't think game mechanics should be held back by the risk of botting, if botting is as big of a deal as its mentioned to be, there should be alot of effort focused purely on anti-botting measures that arnt even readable by the players

[lucid river]

Yeah, make the rocks bigger

[dark reef]

Who can think up some suggestions

[lucid river]

Solved

[dark reef]

This is a joke now

Just stop

You have your game that you like, and you dont want it to change

I understand

[lucid river]

Making the rocks larger in M3 is the quickest, most effective way to fix the issue of mining small rocks

[dark reef]

But dont pretend like you have anything meaningful to say on the subject then

You have a preference

Just admit it

[atomic olive]

He has

[lucid river]

Again, gimme aoe, auto-targetting, drones. Make my life easier so i can scale even more and make more isk

[dark reef]

Im trying

[lucid river]

Thatd be great

[dark reef]

But youre fighting back

So which is it

[lucid river]

Ill mine more (along with the other boxers) and drive prices down to where its not worth it for solos or small groups

Yes, because making mulitboxing easier/afkable content for the game is bad

[dark reef]

Sarcastically making the same point as before isnt more clever

Youre just demonstrating the same dumbass line of reasoning but with a different coat of pint.

[atomic olive]

At this point you guys are just going in circles
Whats the point in trying to drive out denial short of insults?

[lucid river]

The only non-afk content that has been talked about is the AoE miner which will still be high APM for less yeild

[lucid river]

At this point im farming some nice chat points 😂😂 gotta get to dread level somehow

[dark reef]

Yes, this has been circular, but now and then a comment slips in where the point moves forward

[atomic olive]

I know and its so obvious
But like- Okami has to read through all of this
Have mercy on him

[dark reef]

And we get something more nuanced than "rock bigger ugh"

[elder sage]

The only valid points have been made. The rocks don't need to be made any other size than what they are. The Procurer/Skiff, needs to be balanced better for it's supposed role in the line up. We don't need any more ship types.

[atomic olive]

Abyssal sites with jackpot asteroids would give the biggest advantage to solo players imo, that wouldn't harm the overall economy (I've got a really shallow world view on metrics in eve though)

I don't mean anoms, I mean like actual abyssal sites that require filaments

Harder to access, timed, no compression

[elder sage]

So you get 20 minutes to mine a site and have to deal with rats before it colapse on you and kills the ship and pod? NO THANK YOU.

[atomic olive]

No rats, does that sound reasonable? (within the current scope of game mechanics)

[lucid river]

You want ships designed around small rocks because the asteroid belts are small.

Okay fine.

AoE ship. Targets 5-10 rocks. Mines 100m3 per cycle. 60s.
High APM for low rewards. Doesnt change anything from current lineup really.

Auto-targetting. Would have to have extremely low yeild or incredibly tiny hold. Too powerful as an afk/scalable idea for multiboxers.

Drones. We already have this. Plus drones supplement mining lasers. Still wont change anything from the current lineup tbh.

Or
Ccp reduced the overall number of rocks. Then increases their m3, ideally to a point to where total belt m3 is slightly greater than it currently is.

Along with that, ccp needs to introduce abyssals for mining laser upgrades.

[lucid river]

No abyssal instance like sites.

Unless its a scannable sig or a green anom

[atomic olive]

The wormhole would stay open until its completed right? inside is like nullsec, anything goes?

(assuming risk is the factor you disagree with)

[elder sage]

Use a filiment to poch and mine there. Existing mechanic that does the same thing

[atomic olive]

Very high pvp population, no chance

[lucid river]

Would need to either show up on dscan, overview or be a sig/green site. And no ship restrictions (that are unreasonable, gotta allow pvp ships to enter, cause the whole I should be able to mine in peace shit is stupid)

[elder sage]

So you want low risk, high reward

[atomic olive]

Of course, showing up on d-scan sounds reasonable

Not low risk, just not super high risk

[lucid river]

If its not high risk, you dont get high rewards

Low risk = low rewards
Medium risk = medium rewards
High risk = high rewards

Thats something ccp still needs to learn tbh

[atomic olive]

Its for mining frigates without compression in a timed environment, in false-nullsec with an entrance in d-scan for x minutes, wouldn't say its low risk high rewards, even if its jackpot abyssal ores

[lucid river]

Its all relative. Risk vs reward can be balanced around the ship size as well

High risk/high reward for a frig is not going to be the same necessarily for a battleship

[twin gull]

I know rorqual pilots with more kills on their rorqual than I have on my Loki

[unborn hemlock]

I said it before and I'll say it again, edencom and trig variants. The vortron version would be lower yield than a strip miner, but let you effectively get small rocks or have a lower APM. Balanced by not having as high of a yield. Trig version could start lower than a strip, spool higher. Balanced against mass multiboxing because you would lose spool. Is this necessary? No. Do I think it would be cool and fun? Absolutely. I would use both for different niches.

[lucid river]

Trig version wouldnt be balanced against mass multiboxing. Would make moon mining that much easier. Gimme a ship that mines faster than our current line up plz

Gimme 10+ of them plz

[random perch]

Have we finally corrupted you?

[lucid river]

No

Again, my stance is, id love new ships. Because the ideas would as they stand would be OP for multiboxing and id love that. Making me more iskies is a good thing.

However, as much as id love it. Right now its not something the game needs

[unborn hemlock]

I'll agree, it's not needed, and we shouldn't have another rorq incident. Doesn't mean I'm against cool ideas.

[random perch]

Multi boxers ruin everything

[lucid river]

Game encourages it so people will do it.

[dark reef]

We're clearly closer

[random perch]

I’ll get the toad

https://tenor.com/view/hypnotoad-futurama-toad-gif-12116346

You want more mining ships @lucid river

[lucid river]

My stance this entire time, since they annouced the update and even before then, that new ships would be cool and interesting.
I'd love to see a mining dread, and a new orca. Ive been very vocal about that.
I just don't think they are needed right now, or anytime soon.

[random perch]

New orca or redone?

[lucid river]

new.

[random perch]

What you thinking for specs?

[lucid river]

It would essentially be a BS sized mining ship. 3 large lasers, slow agility, decent tank so a small gang cant just yeet it. Drone bay, with a bonus to you can do roughly 400-500 dps with T2 drones. 60k base mining hold

[twin gull]

What if they just changed the assembled m3 of the orca and added excavs to it

[lucid river]

No

[random perch]

No

[random perch]

This looks nice

[lucid river]

Because it is. Its a nice idea, but it is not needed. Not at the moment and not in the near/medium distant future

[random perch]

And now you ruined it

Stick in the mud

[lucid river]

I mean its just the truth. The current ecosystem of mining does not need a new ship. Id rather they balance what we have now, get it in a great spot, then look into adding new content

[random perch]

https://tenor.com/view/hypnotoad-futurama-toad-gif-12116346

[dark reef]

One could make the argument that eve isnt necessary.

But its fun.

Your logic isnt sound

Everything in this game is a nice idea on paper. You agree it needs balance (bigger rocks), but wont agree that the balance can come from new mechanics (new mining modules).

You admit new ships would be nice and fun but wont admit that in a videogame, "nice" and "fun" is literally the whole point.

Its instead about what is "necessary"

Whatever that means in the context of videogames.

[lucid river]

Eve isn't fun. It's a second job

(That is a joke)

[lucid river]

You are correct. Eve most definitely is not necessary.

I disagree on the balance because the new mining content you proposed, something that can competitively mine small rocks, it's much harder to balance and something I'm willing to bet my isk on that most miners would not do, especially the mass amount of multiboxers.

Is rather see another balance pass that benefits all miners over one that creates a new niche that only a few people partake in. Along with making sure it's not just a direct buff to multiboxers such as myself

Most complaints I've been hearing are the rocks are too small and too spread out.
Best fix for that right now in the current eve landscape is: increase their size, reduce overall quantity, and condense the belt spread

[random perch]

T2 orc that is a miner not a booster!!!!!

[random perch]

So I would like to report something. Some time when I go out to mine a bunch of tabs in my inventory are open for moons

[lucid river]

Yes, thats been an issue since metenoxes came out

[frosty current]

I still hate the WF/Power numbers I have to be honest. Ansis workforce is mental and now youve made them squishy and people can getr caught more easily I dont see why you cant make the requirements much lower for workforce because ansis are more destructible and more dangerous so perhaps having more ansis actually creates more content, right? more people jumping through, more potential kills for campers, drop the WF requirements significantly (5000) and generate more content @onyx path

[lucid river]

because fuck null being able to transverse the map in a few jumps. Ansi still need more nerfs

you want content, unblue your neighbors and brawl it out with them

try fighting, just to fight

[woeful apex]

Have you tried living closer to the content

[atomic olive]

Remove asset safety, remove armor timers on citadels
Give us a reason to break the servers

[frosty current]

do you realise how much content we have?

[frozen night]

can't you just keep mordunium as is and replace it with another ore in the anom? This seems to be the easy way to solve the issue of people keeping stockpiles

@onyx path also please take note of the impact of blueprint material reductions from the patch. Especially the reduced amount of Core Temp Regulators and Capital Core Temp Regulators. This is where the majority of R4 moon goo goes into and their use has been reduced dramatically in production. The slump in R4 prices is not only due to metenox use at this point, but also self inflicted with the blueprint material reductions. Suggestion: Find more uses for R4 moon goo!

[onyx path]

Heya, thanks for the feedback!
We are definitely taking a good look at industry chains after these changes now and R4 moongoo is on the list of things we're looking at changes for in the future. We'll figure out a way to keep it feeling viable. For now focused on fanfest and our upcoming expansion, but will happily talk about some of our vision for this in the future once the dust has settled here a bit.

[woeful apex]

Any feedback on the impact of ansiblex changes yet

[frozen night]

I can definitely tell you that maintaining ansiblexes atm is a pain for alliances (which is not necessarily a bad thing). We have had our ansis reinforced daily and when you add workforce disruptions (due to merc dens) and the 3 sources of fuel they require now (fuel blocks, liquid ozone and superionic ice for the infra hub), there's always something not working in our space. There are also 2x less ansis overall compared to pre equinox era, as well as systems with ansiblexes being basically useless for anything else due to how much workforce they require. So if the purpose of recent patches has been to make it more difficult to run ansis and reduce projection, I think we're in a good place.

[random perch]

@onyx path any hints on what the next expansion involves?

[lucid river]

no

[terse rampart]

I guess we might have hints with fanfest 😄

[random perch]

Looking forward to it

[random perch]

Wasn’t asking you, Mr. negative

[lucid river]

Its not a negative. You should be well aware that ccp isnt going to leak info about upcoming expansions. You gotta wait for FF or a dev blog

[terse rampart]

Sigh, Okami literary said they to work on x and y, that's hint, you're negative.

[lucid river]

CCP is not going to drop info about an upcoming expansion in discord. If they do its something they have to get approved first which in that case it wont really be anything significant.
And as they said, FF first. Then expansion which ends sometime in May

so we will know more during and after FF

[terse rampart]

It happen regularly that CCP gives small sentences telling things coming or they're working on

[lucid river]

Yes, CCP said we are doing things. But thats not a hint 😂
That is just them saying they are doing their job which is to develop the game

[terse rampart]

Nobody tells they're going to say "shield booster going to change by 50%", hence the HINT word

[lucid river]

Saying "Yes we are working on things" is not a hint

[terse rampart]

Ok buddy

You're right as always 🙂

[random perch]

Yes sorry for asking questions

Won’t happen again

[lucid river]

A hint would be, "focus on the drift sites and getting/keeping influence up"

[terse rampart]

Yes, you're right, totally right, don't worry

[lucid river]

ask better questions CCP can actually answer.

not "Any hints" which you know they cant answer

[terse rampart]

That's what he did but ok

Forgot you're right, sorry.

[woeful apex]

fanfest is in a few days, i'm sure you will get plenty of info then

[lucid river]

but mah hints are needed now Bazz

[random perch]

(Sigh) should just delete eve discord from my list

[lucid river]

You do that then how can you ask CCP questions you already know they cant answer?

[random perch]

-_-

[dark reef]

Or you can ignore the opinion of people who have so much free time they are able to involve themselves in every conversation that goes on here. Just imagine what kind of lifestyle allows them to do that 😂 Keep engaging with the real community and ignore the gatekeepers 😉

[lucid river]

Working from home and having flexible hours is great

[woeful apex]

you're right the people who engage most with a given community are actually just gatekeepers and not the 'real' community

this makes perfect sense and i am a highsec goon

[onyx path]

SooooOOooon

[dark reef]

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-pikachu-clap-clapping-clapping-gif-gif-13465728489229726846

[woeful apex]

@onyx path what metrics do you use to assess the impact of ansiblex changes on projection

[random perch]

😥

[daring hawk]

okay @onyx path I hate to ping but, what the hell?

Space Superiorities already had a SIGNIFICANT unlisted but in effect 80% reduction to damage against subcaps

why increase the damage reduction on SS fighters further

so the damage reduction will go from 80% to 95%

I... just why

that's. just insulting

the changes as given... don't even really change things

it just makes SS even less likely to be used(they already weren't being used much outside of specific niche cases) and the increase in salvos before needing recovery to reload is.... at best also a niche improvement

[daring wigeon]

Wrong channel

Also wrong dev, I think

[random perch]

#mining message

[onyx path]

Hey there folks, just back in from Fanfest. I see there are already lots of questions and feelings about things! I have an update on mining/minerals tuning and balancing changes coming up with Legion that I'll give tomorrow, and then I'll try and spend some time jumping into some of the @'s and stuff I'm seeing and seeing if I can give some clarity.

[daring hawk]

Hey Okami, want to apologize a bit for the immediate reaction calling the change for carriers insulting for legion

They remain… baffling, but… the in the moment frustration over it has past

Hope you got to enjoy fanfest!

[onyx path]

Hey no worries! I really appreciate how passionate you all are about EVE. Sometimes we're going to make changes that make you mad, and I get it! I appreciate being mad about a thing but not necessarily directing it at me or a dev. We can always have constructive chats about it, then! I'll try and jump on this one tomorrow and see if I can provide more clarity or context too.

[minor oak]

Because this chat channel is with respect to the last update, perhaps a post-Fanfest reaction channel in this discord soon with sub-topics you would be interested in hearing feedback about?

[lucid river]

Making lowsec mining great again??

😛
❤️ Okami, keep up the good work!!

[random perch]

Large mining ships with some bite ❤️

[random perch]

Would be great for more adventurous mining

[rare musk]

I’ll speak of all low secers that we want high risk capital mining back. Many of us hunters do not hunt anymore because folks are not in space as often.

[lucid river]

We just need better risk vs reward sites in general.
Both mining and pve

[dim wyvern]

Sounds like mining dread energy

[random perch]

Maybe if we had better options to defend ourselves, we wouldn’t be running and hiding all the time

[uncut verge]

Easy have a blops fleet on standby

[cold kraken]

yesh...a thought on this might be an ore drone mining barge to take advantage of the gazillion skills mining drones have

[minor oak]

@onyx path So, it's been awhile since the update. We've had two MERs released since the mining changes. Did you get what you wanted? How does the more detailed data look on your end?

[candid scaffold]

when did CCP break gate mechanics. You can get locked and scrammed in an aligned capsule now before you can warp. Game is now gatecampers heaven. Cloak, ultrafast align/warp do not matter anymore. Are PVP players that bad that the code has to help them play? No wonder most people never leave hisec as the risk is not worth it. I am asking for some balance in this game please. Shuttles and sub 2 sec should get out of gate camps unless they make a mistake and cloak by essence should come into play before lock. But the game has stopped this now. There are ways to get cloak and ultrafast align so why break game mechanics

[dark reef]

Never heard of a capsule getting locked, but I'm pretty sure it's been possible for instalock ships to catch a shuttle if they get lucky with the serverticks.

Someone said it helps if the tackler is located close to the server. Don't know if that's true

[candid scaffold]

well capsule get locked now even if aligned and Cloak is disallowed to happen in first second

[candid scaffold]

i agree with an alignment time of 0.04 secs

[candid scaffold]

i tried on 3 chars and zero implants with shuttles.

All 3 died in same gate camp