gray saffron
Hear me out, its good that both has both, but what if you have an option instead of deconstructing petrol generator and put additional Electric one or vice versa?
Petrol would have its speed for example and electrical would have less electrical usage overall?
unique sequoia
I'm not sure what you're asking for. What do you want to happen when you deconstruct the petrol biofuel generator? Why can't you make an electric generator now?
Are you asking for a "replace structure with x" option?
gray saffron
Instead of both Petrol and Electrical, i would prefer 2 electrical
unique sequoia
You can build a second generator. Are you asking for a diesel electrical generator?
Or an electrical generator from biomass?
gray saffron
and for having 2 electrical lets say you have a bonus of consuming electricity evenly or less.
And petrol give more speed?
I am talking regading ones bound to the ship
unique sequoia
Oh, you want more boat engines. I gotcha. "Generator" is also a buildable electrical solution, and I confused it with that. I could like a third petrol boat engine. Not everybody uses much of it.
It would be nice to see a diesel>petrol post processing for that, though, to make good use of black vein. Petrol goes real fast if you rely on it, and it's largely wasted if you don't.
You can't speed up black vein and you can't let it run while you're away, so biofuel might not keep up with fuel production on two fronts.
idle pendant
I do think it would be nice if you can deconstruct either or both engines and replace the one you like most. Most likely be all electric.
Could also allow a spot on thr front of the boat that when unlocked opens "bow thrusters motor. Electric or fuel.
unique sequoia
I feel like it would remove a strategic decision. Requiring multiple resources to max out your speed seems like a fair trade off.
Making it all-electric sounds like something I'd enjoy in a real life boat, but something that would limit engagement with the types of fuel infrastructure in a game, and take a strategic decision off the table.
idle pendant
Maybe not that much. Since diesel is only used for boat engines, its already a bit unbalanced, and petrol is so hard to make with a 10-1 ratio if you allow larger generators that use diesel it would balance more anyway.
And, it would be cool to have the diesel engines require the replacement cylinders but have electrical generation very high for perminate bases and large storage. Id go for satellite beaming of energy to help out human bases. Humans are power hogs. So it would make sense that sending more humans to space would need more power too.
And then you make a new economy to delivering fuel to the stations that transmit energy to space.
unique sequoia
I mean, if you have larger generators that use diesel, petrol electrical generators would be basically worthless.
The idea of a MORE powerful diesel genny means the petrol generator would be consuming a rarer resource to do less, taking away another role to leave petrol almost entirely flamers and vehicles.
On the other hand, taking it off the boat for a second electric means you don't have to balance an extra resource to get the most out of your ship.
Things stop being interesting if questions that are supposed to be strategic start having correct answers.
idle pendant
I would agree in general, but, if you make a poi that requires more then a few KW then what do you do? Its the complexity vs ease of use. Running a few things as the petrol generators use (IE needing a large petrol generator just to charge yourself) kinda changes the idea of a large demand of machinery and complex requirements. Even if you only allow large diesel engines to be built in certain locations (like a repair) that will have tanks to fill rather than allowing large diesel generators just any place. Oddly seeing the (die) in diesel....
Anyway, i can understand not allowing them in just any place. As they would replace the most common. But if you also dont allow them to be built anywhere and rather have them as POI specific as a requirement for heavy KW loads it could add depth. As many diesel engines have been the best and most powerful but also large and harder to maintain.
And i would "request" the option for a salvaged vessel to give us the option of 2 high demand electrical engines or 2 high powered diesel engines. (maybe even 4 as some large ships do have them) .... As our destroyer did... 4 gas turbines... but that is much newer and more poweful than needed boats would need
unique sequoia
If you need more power, build more power gen.
I agree petrol electric gens are too consumptive of a resource that is too dear. But I'm running black vein and Laz on solar, for that reason. I don't agree the solution to that consumption is to fully obsolete them, they just need to be balanced at a useful place.
I still feel like fully electric provides a "correct answer" on how to fuel your adventure. There's very little advantage to full diesel. Electric is cheap, ubiquitous, and never needs refuelling. Even if you give diesel a speed advantage, fuel economy at high speed is it's greatest weakness, it is already at speeds where economy over speed is seeing diminishing returns.
sage brook
I feel like it would remove a strategic decision. Requiring multiple resources ...
IN the early game, you dont really have access to diesel in a large enough volume to use it. WHen you do, you already most likely have 10+ batteries onboard, so you can get almost anywhere on the map by electric propulsion only.
unique sequoia
A lot of people run at 70% throttle perpetually because you lose so little speed for the efficiency gained. Losing a little speed (electric seems to contribute marginally less power, I think) for being able to carry zero fuel sounds like a correct gameplay decision, not a strategic or interesting one.
idle pendant
It would make sense for a people that were killed from green house gases and global warming. Maybe someone learned how to not be a polluting fossil....fuel.
So it does seem to make sense to be more focused on renewables. But as a game device, fixing diesel engines for large elevators and high demand actions would be better than thinking anything can be powered from a 500W portable batt.
and would give some reason to have fuel tanks on the ship, and the feul generators. Otherwise, what is the point of diesel and petrol? Not even a reason to know the blueprint or spend skills on it. So its a good thing to have in the game. making new cylinder heads to power more POI areas.
unique sequoia
Why would I want fuel tanks on the ship if I don't need diesel though? Electric is ubiquitous, cheap, and effectively infinite after your one-time investment in sufficient solar and batteries. Dual electric is a pretty potent fuel-free voyage.
And if I have diesel generatorss, petrol electric generators would go straight into the "you're playing the game wrong if you use them" pile. Because really, why would I use petrol for anything but a forklift or a flamer if diesel is both more plentiful and more powerful in an electric generator?
I think petrol generators need a balance pass. They eat fuel FAST, meaning they can't be relied on long-term for sites that just need electricity. I'd rather see petrol generators become useful than just throw them in the trash for something new.
idle pendant
Me too, Thats why id want more options in the game to use it. Even a new distiller that refines "light oil" out of diesel. (making refining to some ratio of petrol and hydraulic oil. That way you can use it to refill door systems remote activators and refill hydraulic oil tanks for lifts and moving pads. I can understand not changing out the engines on the boat. But more real uses for diesel than just the boat engine.
That way you can have a bunch of things you need to get into harder and harder areas. Like the main storage area, before you can open the doors, you need to refill hydraulic oil tank, add pressured air, and electricity. have some POIs require methane to power internal Gas turbine power generators for high electrical demand. But that means you can keep people out simply by not having methane till later. Or you need like many "keys" for a door. and that is figuring ways to bring certain levels of resources. Sea water for cooling. fresh water for condensate systems. some fuel to run internal generators, compressed air for pneumatic triggers. hydraulic tanks and electricity. Maybe even running emergency patch lines to connect main power to more sections of the facility
Maybe even have a sea water cooling system you can add on the distillery to make processing faster and keep the temps down.
unique sequoia
That sounds a lot like depth and gating, but not necessarily balance. It's extra complexity and pacing, but doesn't necessarily make diesel or petrol or dual electric engines better or worse or harder or easier.
I don't mind more complexity in restoring sites, but I'm not sure we'll see a lot of complexification in processes. I have a sneaking suspicion that the devs have a cap on how complex they want processes to be. That's one reason I feel like post-processing diesel to petrol fits; it inter-links some production to close a circle, but doesn't actually complicate it.
But we have few sites that actually do production. And I think we should probably do something about oil before trying to accelerate distillers. There's not really a lot of reason to have more than a couple. Even one consumes more than the site can produce, if I recall.
I might be mistaken. I overbuilt oil when I was trying to make it work, and haven't used just one for a while. After that I went pretty much 100% biomass for fuel requirements.
idle pendant
In my experience, when the end of new things happens the game gets repetitive and worthless. Like "just cause" same things to do, same weapons and items to do them, the larger the map the less fun it is.
So making a continuing increase in depth means more to unlock, new puzzels and tests to get done the things in game. When the tech tree stops, and the idea of the game just plateus then it gets less and less fun to keep playing.
unique sequoia
Okay, but that's a different subject.
idle pendant
Not saying the boat engines should be better or worse. But new boats? upgradeable to be to your play style.
unique sequoia
Not an unworthy one, just not sure how it relates.
Boat mods are coming. I just feel like dual electric (not engines in general, specifically a dual electric option) is basically free propulsion with no sacrifices. Electricity is just too easy to keep maxxed out.
The mixed engines, I think, were a great choice - easy access anywhere, but requiring engagement with new systems to maximize.
idle pendant
Yea, its only us climate change people at the end of the world due to fossile fuels that would like to learn from the mistakes and have all electric. Even if max speed is less. Id even understand if you pulled some power from solar and wind and make some power from the boat diesel. So you end up needing more renewables (like tidal) or more batts. But it would make the fuel and power platforms more useful if things were a bit weaker. But that would need the POIs working in background when not around. So you build up the power POIs so you stop to recharge from them if you are using electric only
Could really use some power output from diesel engine. Maybe something that power the other electric engine, (or partial) but then also have a way to unload the propulsion from the diesel engine and have it produce electricity. Less fuel use when not moving. Like an idel engine. And lower some of the solar and wind input. (or less solar due to the repair requirements for wind)
unique sequoia
The problem is that max speed probably wouldn't be significantly less. Even if the power output is less, we're already in the range where more power isn't equaling much more speed.
Because you can drop throttle to 70% and lose very little speed, it's probable that you can drop the electric's power to 70% and still not be making any significant sacrifices for a dual-electric, zero-fuel ride.
I just also really like that in order to get your best speed you have to engage multiple ecosystems of production. I think that goes a long way. I really want the game to reward engaging with fuel and particularly the oil production chain. (Though right now bioreactors are pretty potent ways to skip oil entirely.)
coral cypress
I'm gonna tip my hat into the ring here. I'd like the ability to run whichever combination of engines I like, i.e. two diesels, twl electrics, or one of each.
Shouldn't be too difficult, given the current crafting framework.
idle pendant
I can agree on that SerSean, But even if it stays 1 each, only using electric you have a max 20-24 knots. If you use 2 electric you could cut down to 35 max where diesel can give you 42 to 45. Maybe more depending.
But i think what would be nice too, if you make the boat diesel engine generate electric as well. So you can use that to help power the other electric engine, and recharge batts.
And make solar and wind produce less. So you have a reason to use the refueling and recharge platforms to charge up. (IE needing the POIs to be able to recharge when away.
I hate running fuel for anything. Cause "end of world" if someone don't learn after the end that we shouldn't be bringing humans back.
unique sequoia
Again, 70% throttle is already better than 35, so you'd have to significantly reduce the power to do that.
Keep in mind that dropping throttle 70% drops a few kph. The power-to-speed ratio isn't linear. You have to drop significant power to see even moderate speed reductions.
I wouldn't mind a biofuel conversion or an electric running on methane and oxy as part of a solid oxide fuel cell, mind. The fuel doesn't HAVE to be dirty or diesel. But I'd hate to lose the hybrid engines that encourage you to engage the game's economy.
I said early it's the kind of thing I'd love on a real life boat, because it's an easy answer, but easy answers in games tend to be uninteresting decisions.
idle pendant
if max of just electric is 24, how is 70% 35?
also saying im not talkign about changing out the diesel engine. But some changes to make it more useful. And to make it harder to just build a few solar panels and have all the power you need. It does seem a bit of a cheat
Even more when wind needs repairs but solar gives 4k and no repairs. More batts makes up for lack of generation during day
and then you also bring in the other renewable areas to help charge and more fuel to use for the diesel engine
and if that engine made some electric it would be more like every diesel engine on the planet
Don't have to be several KW but something
unique sequoia
Boats are like that. Power against drag isn't a linear equation. The more you put in, the less speed you get out per unit. Diminishing returns.
It's why you only lose a few kph dropping the throttle by 70% instead of losing 30% of your speed, the game is simulating it. You burn thirty percent less fuel, but you don't lose 30% of your speed. That's the reason so many people like 70% throttle.
coral cypress
Meh.... I usually just go balls to the wall everywhere.
I've got enough diesel & battery capacity that I'm not too bothered about economy.
idle pendant
I think you are misunderstanding what i am saying. With one engine. the electric one. The max speed i saw at 100% was 24 knots. If you had 2 electric and did 35 id be fine. if you did 1 diesel and made max 100% 24 to 30, and 2 diesel engines 45-55 then id still go with all electric. Going with the idea to not make diesel nearly useless as a resource in the game then im fine with 1 of each. And id still not use the diesel. Unless, you make electric renewables less powerful. Make the diesel engine also produce some electricity to help out with the electric, but not on the 100% powered so you need batts.
Then you need the fuel and renewable POIs to recharge the batts for using both. Because the renewables are not making 4kw. That way exploring is a bit more of needing to stop for recharge so you need to explore the fuel and power pois. And you make diesel something worth more. Its a balance shift. But i also like being able to not use diesel cause after the millions (or billions) that died when the world flooded it would be nice to cut back on polluting more.
i understand the point you are making lurkily, but i was not talking about using 70% throttle. I never mentioned how much power electric was. And a full out electric so i don't have to manage diesel is simple. if i ran both i get what? 35 knots? and i still have to keep processing oil. Meaning all over the map to get it and process it. Or i have to find ways to farm bio material to blend into diesel.
Simple to spend another couple minutes to get to where i wanna go using full electric then to worry about all about diesel since its only use currently is to run the boat.
unique sequoia
I'm not saying you talked about 70% throttle. I'm saying that 70% throttle dropping basically no speed is a demonstration that the magnitude of response is larger in your single-engine demonstration of the speed differences. You must lose very significant power from electric to lose even a modest amount of speed on dual electric compared to a hybrid.
Bio has been plentiful since 01. What I pick up because it ends up in front of me has been enough to top off the boat diesel. I think you're vastly overestimating the uses for fuel available to say that you could eliminate boat fuel use and still be encouraged to engage oil.
I'm currently retooling for bio-only in the current build, and maybe it's been luck, but so far I haven't had to go out of my way.
idle pendant
From the start the diesel was burning fast.
So it wasnt used in my game.
And the conversation became more uses.
Got confused why you kept talking about throttle speed when I wasn't.
Only that having possible duel electric would be nice. Or duel diesel. But it woukd remove all reason to carry diesel in the first place.