Rugged Footing - Map Feedback Discussion

[thick cypress]

The purpose of this thread is to have a critical and constructive discussion about map quality to begin updating my Phobies Map Feedback document. I think I can best update this document by talking with experienced players in the community. Anyone is welcome to partake in the discussion. My goal is to ensure all maps adhere to the Phobies Map Criteria, which you can find here:
Phobies Map Criteria

These criteria are created in the spirit of making Phobies matches fast, engaging, and fun. When making criticisms of the map, please also include potential solutions. Additionally, it is important when suggesting alterations to a map to try and preserve as much of that map's unique character as one can. With too many alterations, we end up making a new map entirely, not just altering an existing one. The goal is to acknowledge the spirit of the map, but also to improve up on it. If a map cannot be salvaged while retaining its identity, then the goal is to create a new map that reflects the theme present in the map's name.

For communicating specific rework concepts, I recommend utilizing Pato Rey's map creator, which you can find here:
https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/913379920/

For large maps, the turbowarp link is superior:
https://turbowarp.org/913379920?size=500x480

I have decided to post each map using Pato Rey's map creation tool because I find it offers a more visually neutral experience, void of map themes that can induce visual confusion. Below is a reference for this map:

The primary issues with the map seem to be surrounded the excess abyss tiles leading the map to be heavily flyer-oriented. The conveyor tile is controversial. Matches seem to be slow, as well.

Here are a few potential reworks, mostly from discussions with @sharp pelican

<@&1410628473189302352> new thread up!

[torn mist]

yes I was thinking in my head exactly about V4

that gets rid of the annoying process to get ground units to defend the centre without having a flyer bodyblocking the belt

[sharp pelican]

Shoot, you removed the one that I drew up with the abyss remaining southeast / northwest of the heart.

[torn mist]

AND of the potential for displacement to be game-breaking

[thick cypress]

Please by all means add them to the discussion. I can only do so much. 😄

[sharp pelican]

Will do so once I have a laptop to build a map on

[thick cypress]

I also like V4, but I have a concern that it allows for a direct bee-line to the enemy heart along the bottom and might make the map feel overly rushy.

[cosmic fiber]

The thing is, i dont actually think adding more points is necessary, its already a fast paced aggressive map, so i dont think v2 is a good idea

[torn mist]

how about the heart and the rock shifting between each other?

too protected maybe (?)

[cosmic fiber]

In terms of aggression criteria its actually perfectly aggressive, the only issues it has is in being a bit of a collection check

[torn mist]

yes V2 and V5 feel more like a new map completely

[thick cypress]

It would be okay if they shifted, but I try to minimize changes. The rule I use for a heart being vulnerable is that it must be assailable by a 2 range standard attack Phobie in a space that is 5 spaces from the vault. That means only Snowball and JC can potentially vault snipe, which makes your attacks on the heart calculable.

[torn mist]

I see

[hexed barn]

I like V4 more, adding new panic points feels like a new map and people tend to stand there for long time without capturing the central point.

Apart, a new way to go for the hearth if the enemy are back enough

[thick cypress]

I guess the first step is to ask: which abyss tiles really need to go, at the bare minimum? If we can all agree that a pair or two MUST go to make the map not heavily flyer biased, then we're in a good position.

[torn mist]

the ones on the trio Id say

[hexed barn]

yes

[torn mist]

the triangle abyss

[thick cypress]

Alright, so that's 3 votes against additional panic point tiles.

[torn mist]

completely pointless and a waste of map space

[hexed barn]

yes

[daring garden]

Adding more panic points will make the map more fun tho 😞

[torn mist]

it will make it a new one

[daring garden]

Gee so what

It's more fun 😀

[sweet quest]

V4 looks great to me. The reason it feels like a collection check is often because of the lack of space when you're vs devastating aoe units like Nox and 2.0

[cosmic fiber]

It makes the map more swarm oriented, the original map has perfectly fair aggression

[thick cypress]

It's all about addressing the problems with minimal changes.

If panic points are not a problem in the map's pacing, then it doesn't need to change.

I felt like the map was slow, personally.

[daring garden]

More panic points means I can be more aggressive with my one keys and meeles ayye

[cosmic fiber]

Yeah exactly it just becomes another pits

[torn mist]

not the point of the discussion
It was also Karst who mentioned changing the map making it like a "new one" isn't these threads' objective

[daring garden]

Oh..

[thick cypress]

It's good to read the intro to this thread - it describes the goals. The Map Feedback Document also lists the criteria and how they are derived. Understanding those is helpful to having context in what the goal of the discussion is.

[daring garden]

That's too bad then 😢

[bold thicket]

@daring garden

ʙᴏɪʙʀᴏ... leveled up!

@daring garden has ascended to <@&954802262419578970>!

Phobies

[daring garden]

Finally 😀

[thick cypress]

@sweet quest do you not have concerns that removing this abyss tile provides too strong of a path to the heart, and we end up in a Desolation Row situation (I think we all are not fans of that, right?).

[torn mist]

I personally didn't feel like the map was that slow, since a few 1 keys well placed go a long way to make the heart beat
Also, removing abyss tiles will ALREADY speed up the map

[cosmic fiber]

In my trials versus lerat we were both able to aggro perfectly fine as either p1 or p2. You can attack the heart either from the bottom or the middle perfectly well, and you can use things like rambolina to force the enemy back in order to create an opening

[thick cypress]

That's true.

[thick cypress]

Aggro through heart rush, or panic point control into heart rush?

I agree you can aggro, but I think it's important for Phobies experiences that the aggro path is not just immediately diving for the heart. Players do not like that because it feels unengaging to have to play defense on your heart immediately instead of playing for your own objectives.

Proper map flow is gaining panic point advantage first, and then that panic point advantage naturally leads to attacking the heart to draw the match to a conclusion if your opponent does not defend well. Does that make sense, and do we agree on that?

[torn mist]

I think, rather than the pathway to the heart, what those additional ground tiles will give is finally a decent path to let phobies defend the centre, and having pullers ACTUALLY work, who would otherwise be countered by pushers

[cosmic fiber]

Panic point control into heartrush, if we went all in the other side was usually able to defend, again theres a reason i recommended rambo, you needed to time an opening

[sweet quest]

Cases could be made either way. Off the top of my head, this is a longer heart to vault distance then Desolation Row. A non- flying 2-2 cannot control mid and the heart at the same time. Melee units can be defended against using pushers

Without lack of map scaling however, that's definitely how it's gonna play vs whales

[cosmic fiber]

Its not like some all in mazeophob jobby you needed to time your attack well otherwise it tended to get beaten

[torn mist]

Also, removing those abyss tiles would help in making the map less of a collection check, as you can spread out your units more from noxious AND 2.0

[cosmic fiber]

I think asking which tiles to remove is difficult, its hard to figure out which tiles you could remove without changing the dynamic

[hexed barn]

Yeah, remove that abyss
(in that way could be more reliable)

[thick cypress]

Cool beans.

[thick cypress]

It is - that's why I need many eyes to look at it with me and figure these things out.

So is the support for V4 unanimous, then? Over V3?

[cosmic fiber]

Is it weird that i wanna cut the conveyor?

[hexed barn]

dont.

[sweet quest]

Well then it's just Footing

[cosmic fiber]

Problem is its kinda the whole basis of the design

[sweet quest]

Not rugged anymore

[thick cypress]

I kind of want to, but I'd rather try and find a way to make it work with the conveyor there, since that's the map's core identity, and it is interesting.

[sweet quest]

Figuring out the droney tech was so hype haha

We don't talk about how a buffed noxious makes it useless

[torn mist]

the conveyor is literally the map identifier

[thick cypress]

To me it's akin to Hold Still. There's an annoying wall by your vault. Do you break it with GD? You lose temp now but gain tempo later by having easier access. Or do you play flyers and 3 movers to run past it faster? I think the Hold Still wall is the perfect example of a wall that adds depth to a map instead of removing it.

I'd like this conveyor tile to be the same thing. Do you put a flyer there to get in faster? Or do you put Phobies on the edge of the conveyor tile? Or do you go around the sides? That feels more interesting to me from a design perspective, achieving that balance, than just removing it.

[torn mist]

and it's what makes it unique

[cosmic fiber]

Im experimenting with a charon tech thanks to the dimensional event

Yeah i get it

[torn mist]

Agreed.

[thick cypress]

Does that bottom-right/left extra abyss tile bother people a lot in V3?

[cosmic fiber]

V3 might actually be better because even if you go all in it forces aggro into a cluster that can be knocked about

Additionally you can do the trick of trapping enemies on the top and bottom points which i sometimes do

[thick cypress]

It feels more interesting to me in V3, but I can see how more open space in V4 is appealing.

[humble flare]

Honestly my only real problems with this map is that it feels like pushing is too good. This means that going for ground units feels really bad because if your opponet goes for Rambolina/+Heavo 2.0 you can't really play (unless you manage to get behind their heart in a good way before those come out, but that doesn't feel that easy)

Also it feels disgusting to play on as a low collection player (speaking from playing on it with the road to soaf account).

Though I guess that's why you called it a collection check 😅

[hexed barn]

indeed

[cosmic fiber]

Yeah same, its a perfectly fine map with a full collection, its just reliant on a bunch of units most people dont have

[hexed barn]

So, we all agree that V4 is the choosen one?

[humble flare]

Thoughts on this?

[hexed barn]

its lil better than V3

but it doesnt convience me enough

[eager kestrel]

there's barely any space for ground units to avoid a rambolina/2.0 push

[thick cypress]

Yeah that's the collection check part. I have more clear definitions in the map doc.

[thick cypress]

So I think this is not true, and my argument is this: if a map is a collection check, it's bad for everyone, beacuse it means you need to use certain Phobies to win.

If you need to use certain Phobies to win, that means your matches are partially solved, less strategic, and start to feel monotonous.

So while collection checks are the biggest problem for new players, I don't think Phobopolis, for example, becomes enjoyable just because someone owns all the lobbers. I don't think this map is very fun just because I own all of the game's flyers, either.

[lilac barn]

I think collection check map are pretty much annoying and unfun after few match when you own everything, and if you don't own the phobie, it's straight up unfair, especially if the opponent own the phobie.

[humble flare]

Could also try something like this, if we're worried that removing the abyss tile makes the path to the heart too easy then the heart could jump back 1 tile - Not sure if this is too easy to defend tho.

[thick cypress]

I consider that left abyss tile to be the most important one to remove. It's because it allows Phobies to approach the center from the side, providing an alternative entrance to the center outside of the conveyor tile. So players get a choice of how to approach, with different strategies. This is especially important for turrets, because a turret takes far too long to do anything on this map and is basically locked out from being a part of this map.

[thick cypress]

Pretty much, yeah. Like in our discussion of #1411961219723558963 even if I owned Prometheus...I don't want to play a map where every match is me and my opponent summoning Prometheus. That sucks.

[humble flare]

Honestly I haven't even tried using turrets here lol

Just seemed too bad.

[lilac barn]

Mandatory unit in strategic game is often very bad

[cosmic fiber]

I would definitely argue phobopolis has problems outside of just being a collection check, and im not too anti specific lines as long as theres strategic depth

[lilac barn]

I think you can put a turret to the center if you developped well enough. I think you would need a flier to block the turret from dropping in the abyss so you can put it on the conveyor turn 2.

[cosmic fiber]

I can get why people dont like it though

In fact most of my thoughts for phobopolis dont even solve the collection check part, they just try and make the heart… actually hittable

[thick cypress]

Even in the center, that turret is basically helpless. It can't move anywhere BUT the center without potentially dying to displacement. That's a central issue. Removing that left/right abyss tile solved that.

[lilac barn]

Also this single interaction where you use a flier to remove the threat from the conveyor is why I don't want the conveyor to dissapear. It seem annoying at first but it end up being pretty good at forcing people to play around it.

There is also way more then just that flier interaction.

[lilac barn]

Yes, it's by far the most annoying tile.

Just checked in the original map there is barely only 3 tile in the middle where it's impossible to die to abyss with only 1 displacement

[thick cypress]

Yeah. It's a death trap. lol

[lilac barn]

And to add, those three tile are pretty far from each other. There is no way you own that much space unless you took map control

You basically own the entire middle if you can use those 3 tile.

[humble flare]

Just ignore the middle and punch their heart has mostly been my strat here (unless they summon a bunch of ground units then I go for aoe pushers).

Like the middle isn't even worth going near most of the time

[thick cypress]

That's been my experience, but @cosmic fiber was saying that his matches have been about controlling panic points first.

I want to avoid a map where people just dart for the heart immediately. That's not fun.

[cosmic fiber]

Maybe my matches are an outlier or not playing optimally?

Idk, i personally have enjoyed aggro on footing, its not felt like a full heart map, for my matches aoe hitters like 2.0 rambo or noxious have kept full heart dives in check, maybe thats just me?

[hexed barn]

🍝

[thick cypress]

Maybe you and @humble flare could play a one or two if you feel like it. Might be good for discussion.

[lilac barn]

I mean my (worth mentionning) experience on the map is pretty much restrained to my match against you in rugged. By worth mentionning I mean match that are not weighted in me or my opponent favor by level, and that the skill gap isn't too consequent.

[lilac barn]

Honestly having map enthusiast play some game together to test further the map seem like a very good idea in general.

As far as it go most new map have some of us being way less experienced about them then most more ancient map.

[thick cypress]

It would be, I just don't have time to test right now, and I don't like to tell other people to do things I myself am not in a position to do.

[lilac barn]

Fair enough

[thick cypress]

Let's do a head count. Put a 3 on the message if you like V3, and a 4 on the message if you like V4. <@&1410628473189302352>

[thick cypress]

Posting on behalf of @sharp pelican for discussion. Personally I think the left/right abyss tiles are the most important ones to lose.

[sharp pelican]

In my defense I think turrets can get through but they need a body blocking flier behind them so you sacrifice some tempo to be able to speed up turrets.
Additionally I think this gives each player a bit more space to work with next to their hearts where you can try to build a push

[thick cypress]

The issue is that the body blocking flyer can be displaced along with the turret on the conveyor tile. You need a slower but lower risk way of approaching the center as an alternative. This is the primary reason the map is so flyer focused.

[torn mist]

I don't despise the idea of a V3 with the corner trio abyss reduced to a TOP abyss tile + FARTHEST abyss tile

still reducing them to 2, but in a diagonal pattern rather than straight

that way, 2 range hitters can defend the corner panic point

[thick cypress]

I'm open to that, too.

[crimson imp]

I know I'm late to the party, but that conveyor feels really gimmicky and not fun. I think it's also the cause of a lot of the unit-dependency issues.

Here I just swapped the conveyor to make side deployment and central deployment less annoying for Phobies.

It also kind of addresses the issue with the abyss tiles Karst didn't like.

You could put a conveyor on the top and bottom paths (instead or as well) if you also want to encourage forward positioning along those lines.

[thick cypress]

To me, the main issue is the lack of ground space. Too many abyss tiles, no room to maneuver.

[sharp pelican]

I like the conveyor making it hard for ground units turrets not being able to double step to middle is really nice

[sweet quest]

Unfortunately Dudio this is just Footing

[crimson imp]

Sounds great to me!

PS: they missed an opportunity to call the map Rugged Foot-ring

[thick cypress]

Don't you dare tell them....

Or maybe you should as a little jab. lol

[thick cypress]

Rugged Footing - Map Feedback Discussion

[ocean sphinx]

I'd say V2 and V5 look the most appealing to me. Additional panic points are always nice (though I don't really mind the current spread on the map as we have it now) and the reduction in abyss tiles makes the map a lot more playable for any kind of Phobie. I also think it's important to keep that conveyor near the vault. It's one of the map's recognizable features for sure, and it creates some fun strategic moments unique to this map.

That said, the idea of "rugged footing" as in it's hard to find somewhere stable to stand is a bit lost. Perhaps some extra conveyor tiles dotted about could reintroduce the theme in a way that doesn't make flyers as mandatory?

This map feels almost good, yet so frustrating off of how flyer-dependent it is.