Runekeeper Dev Branch Megathread

[sturdy tusk]

hmm if it were possible to iterate over it you'd be able to get a list of the items and their locations

[zealous barn]

anyway, it's going through those for every disassembly component while crafting

createFake gets called multiple times, and setQuality gets called for each of those, for some createFakes it calls getDisassemblyComponents and setQuality and set durability for each of them .... and most of those end up invoking onItemStateChange and going through that tracker

[sturdy tusk]

it's weird that a weakset has check is that slow

I wonder if it would be faster if I made it track the items by referenceId instead (unique integer over all things in the entire game)

[zealous barn]

i dont know why it's tracking so many items

[sturdy tusk]

Check which containers it's tracking

trackedContainers

Get the container names so you know what they are by storing them as global variables and then doing localIsland.items.getContainerName(temp1).getString()

oops sorry

[zealous barn]

every action that has ItemFinder seems to have same number of items in the trackedItems ... and i think it's tracking every bag i have in my inventory

[sturdy tusk]

Yeah that sounds right

[zealous barn]

this is gonna take a while to wrap my head around

[sturdy tusk]

I think to improve the performance of this I'd need to add a new layer that tracks containers/items per player so that it only propagates down to individual item finder updates if the upper layer passes the set has check

[zealous barn]

anyway, createFake probably shouldn't be triggering these checks

[sturdy tusk]

Definitely

[zealous barn]

and especially not every time it changes one propery of the items it's creating

[sturdy tusk]

That sounds easier than adding a new layer

[zealous barn]

dunno what side effects there will be, tho. but ... craft() which takes 367ms calls getMaxQualityBonus() which takes 72ms, because one createFake takes 22ms and another takes 50ms

22ms is the wooden pole, 50ms is the string, which has two disassembly components that get iterated there ...

WeakSet might really have some issues, though. anyway, i can't be arsed to debug this further, it'd be much more beneficial to instrument those functions to see how many times they're actually called etc, but i dont think i can do that with chrome devtools

[sturdy tusk]

I think you can by adding logpoints that modify properties on window

You could also just add logpoints that log unique strings and filter the log to the string to count occurrences

[zealous barn]

this is too much hassle, i ran out of mental energy already 😄

[sturdy tusk]

No worries haha

[zealous barn]

well, i got some data out of this, but it's an old issue and i bet none of you wants to touch it

[sturdy tusk]

It's not that nobody wants to touch it, it's that like most of the big stuff lately I made the system so it would have to be me to fix it or improve it and I'm already swamped with a billion other things

The leak is more important to fix than this performance stuff

But I'll look into not emitting events on fake items at least

That should be easy

[zealous barn]

what if some of those events are actually needed? 😛

[sturdy tusk]

Then it'll break something and we'll find out in either 1 week or 1 year and then it'll change slightly again

[zealous barn]

callback-heavy programming makes for some really convoluted control flows that are pain to make sense of, so yeah... breaking things in production is how everyone does it. at least there's a good chance the issues will be found before the major release 🙂

most annoying would be if there are event handlers for adjusting item stats or fixing item state or silly things like that

[sturdy tusk]

Don't believe there are

Fake items shouldn't even exist imo

[sturdy tusk]

I should be fixing bugs but instead I'm doing improvements as always smh #changelog

[mighty moss]

good stuff

https://tenor.com/view/noice-nice-click-gif-8843762

[mighty moss]

yo giant rats run weird on frozen seawater tile

[sturdy tusk]

They’re sliding

Take off your boots and you can slide too

[mighty moss]

noice ohh i'll try that next time in on

[junior valve]

not sure if intentional:
TileGroup.Ground does not contain SandstoneFlooring and CobblestoneFlooring, while all other terrains with TerrainTypeGroup.Flooring are present there
spotted this when chickens were not spawning from decayed eggs on Cobblestone Flooring

[mighty moss]

wwwoah

[sweet monolith]

Suggestion:

It would be usefull if the day was also tracked alongside turns in the Ferocity display.

or nights

[sturdy tusk]

[sweet monolith]

I am liking the early game ferocity ramp, it is night 11 and the ramp towards is only now starting to outpace sacrificing to and , piety is at 12% and I generally have been finding 2-3 runes of and per day depending on what I am doing along with the occasional rune of .

[mighty moss]

bruuh your where i was lol I complained soo much but the take away was to focus combat ability at all costs

don't even try to fight the

sacrifice whatever you get during the day so you don't get cursed and make combat things

https://tenor.com/view/ok-thumbs-up-nice-good-job-approved-gif-11873709253184331802

[tidal island]

imo just keep doing stuff, you'll get runes from it. if you need to manage your reputation then sacrifice every rune to

[zealous barn]

the early game was super chill. but it gets very tedious as it gets towards night 20 and piety remains low

[mighty moss]

Hell yyyyyeeaahhhhh!! that toook waayyy to long man

also giga chad untamed and was being a douche whole time base was getting done

[zealous barn]

haven't played for a few days, but today suddenly actions like "chop" and "protect" are showing up as undiscovered ....

there's also that dummy placeholder text

also, my actionbar contents have changed

[sturdy tusk]

tsk tsk i think someone may have changed action ids then

i'll take a look

[zealous barn]

my slots 1 and 2 used to have Chop and Mine, while they now have Mine and Hitch

[sturdy tusk]

smh it was me

[zealous barn]

😄

[sturdy tusk]

everything after this action got shifted down one

oops!

I'm reverting this one so the actions will shift back to what they were before

Since that will affect the bulk of players upon loading up the new stable

Sorry for the mess

[zealous barn]

this is why it's a dev branch 🙂

[mighty moss]

OP i got that n thot i messed up just corrected it n played lol

[zealous barn]

i have some fly amanita spores, not stacked, and the right click menu shows "Plant I" as greyed out .... however, you can still click it and plant the spores

seems to happen with all planting actions, not just mushrooms

[mighty moss]

i have the same thing for smother fire on sand and soil...

[zealous barn]

ohhh, it shows the quality color there for some reason 😄

it seems the normal quality color was changed from white to gray

[sturdy tusk]

yeah that's a bug i haven't gone back to fix yet

sorry

[mighty moss]

ohhhhh oh im having a tough time setting hotkeys to auto dissasemle thing

[zealous barn]

i have to admit the outlines look a lot more pleasant

[mighty moss]

it works sometimes and other times it just clears the action

thas all i have lol but everything good

[mighty moss]

and the same for a crafting action it crafts once and then just switches to the craft icon

[zealous barn]

after drinking goat milk, the waterskin with durability 41/42 isn't showing the durability bar at all. however, dragging the waterskin does show the durability bar. dunno if it's just a side effect of an earlier desync tho

[zealous barn]

the leather gorget of invocation doesn't display the good glyph there, but it does show up fine in the inventory tooltip

[sturdy tusk]

i bet you if you figure out a way to swap the order around it makes it only work for the leather gorget

(bugged from very bad code i don't know how to fix)

[zealous barn]

it doesn't seem to want to put them in different order in the tooltip. if i take the knife away, the gorget shows the glyph correctly

[sturdy tusk]

yep i figured it was that bug

so there's a specific situation where duplicate icons are shown because the text rendering is a mess

to workaround it at some point i wrote something that just hides any duplicate icons in a single translation

and a list of items counts as a single translation

[zealous barn]

aww

the consequences of only treating the symptoms instead of the cause ;D

[sturdy tusk]

yup

that's one of those things i've needed to completely rework for a while

not sure this instance is fixable until then hmm

[zealous barn]

if you drag things into sorted containers, it will not place items in the correct position, yet might not revert the sort to "custom" sort either

[sturdy tusk]

The intended behaviour there is for it to sort the item you’re dragging in

You’re saying it puts it somewhere different?

Is it a desync?

[zealous barn]

that's a good question. the items end up in the very end of the container

[sturdy tusk]

Might be a consequence of another fix, I’m pretty sure that worked at some point lol

[zealous barn]

after reopening that bag, the sort now says "custom"

[sturdy tusk]

Kk I’ll take a look when I have availability again

[zealous barn]

shift-click moving works correctly, drag does not. after drag, shift-click moving doesn't respect sort either, which means the bag is internally custom sorted, it's just the UI that still says decay

meanwhile, i've finally gotten used to my new keybinds (space opens action menu and . waits) ... and these feel so much better than the defaults

lol

right click menu for a bag shows option to open the container i'm currently facing ... so if i press I, it will both open the chest and close that bag

[sturdy tusk]

Perfect game without bugs

Finding the workarounds to all of the “bugs” is half the gameplay loop!

[zealous barn]

took a heap snapshot after an hour of random gameplay, 588 megabytes lol. it's still 76M after compression too

not sure how useful this would be anyway

it might be helpful if the dev builds included sourcemaps ;D

also, as soon as new version deploys, i imagine this heapshot will no longer be compatible

but at least i now know heap snapshot is possible for a one hour session

tried to reload, take another snapshot, compare ... pointless. i should've taken a snapshot at the beginning and saved that, then loaded the initial snapshot again after taking the second snapshot. maybe next time

[errant loom]

hmm, i thought we did add source maps

[zealous barn]

reinforcing doesn't always update durability bar either. this even happens with the equipment window, which is unlikely to be subject to the typical container UI desync issues

[zealous barn]

huh ... it's not that the durability bar just doesn't update, but it shows WRONG durability sometimes as well

upon disassembling an item i just crafted, one of the components is showing entirely wrong durability bar, but it shows the correct one when you drag it

[zealous barn]

lol

so, your duplicate glyph removal doesn't seem to always work 🙂

[errant loom]

was it a magical item?

there was an issue with persistence previously (which i fixed last night)

if not, maybe get a screenshot so i can try to figure out what's going on

[zealous barn]

i believe it was a magical item, yes, purple bone pole of featherweight perhaps, can't remember for sure

the item i disassembled, just a random tin pickaxe, i cant remember if it was magical

[errant loom]

all good, i found the issue

[zealous barn]

i see there's been adjustments to outline colors etc .. but now the pure white outlines in the crafting dialog are too bright. way too bright

it should be darkened a little, even if it's just down to match the off-white scrollbar. the pure white is just too much

the outlines in the inventory look alright, it's just the crafting dialog that has uncomfortably bright outlines. actually, they feel a little too bright for the disabled crafts too

another oddity: normal quality items have darkened gray outline, but constructed containers have bright white outline?

[sturdy tusk]

smh drathy

[zealous barn]

meanwhile, still unfixed: when eating apples, the resulting seeds still show the original apple's decay bar

[zealous barn]

i wish there was some way to temporarily toggle visibility of UI on and off, so i could look at my surroundings without having to reopen all the bags afterwards

i have 5 bags open, and while it normally isn't an issue, i'd really like to take a good look at my surroundings without having to reopen them all afterwards

also, 4K zoomout is super unfair ;D

[sturdy tusk]

f2

the binding is called "screenshot mode"

[mighty moss]

i feel like i learned that here but it coulda been me messing around too lol its super useful

[zealous barn]

whaaaaaaaat

i'm sure i've gone through the keybinds several times and that bind has still eluded me somehow 😄

wtf

i right clicked on a stack in one bag, hit Q A to drop all .... it dropped all the matching items from another bag instead

[sturdy tusk]

stack action menus still are like action slots

[zealous barn]

but it doesn't normally do that

i had 10 instructional scrolls in one bag, 8 in another ... the chest had space for both. it only moved the ones from wrong bag

and i cannot reproduce this

dropping with Q-A left stuff in strange order ... the chest is sorted by recent, i dropped 4 items but 3 of the items ended up on top, 1 ended up at the very bottom

that one i can reproduce. as long as the chest container UI isn't open when i drop, the items end up in strange order

ha! and it desyncs if it is open, because it places the items in the end but upon reopening the chest the order is 3 at top and 1 at bottom

[zealous barn]

ahh, now i understand. the other bag had a higher quality item so that's why Q-A applied to that bag 😄

the icons were identical, so i didn't even consider there was a higher quality item in the mix

meanwhile, have you considered how stacks and sorting should interact with each other? e.g. i want to sort by decay, but also stack the items ... so i'm expecting right click to choose the lowest decay object to use ;D

that's actually a super bad case

i'm used to sorting decay in descending order

so i'll eat the items at the bottom first

but if the stack is sorted in descending order, surely the last item cannot be representative item of the stack

[sturdy tusk]

the stack is just the items in sorted order

so if you sort by decay it sorts the items in the stack by decay

i'm not sure how it chooses where to put the stack itself

i don't remember

[zealous barn]

there's no way to implement stacks that fits my playstyle 😄

without conflicting with someone else's playstyle

ohwell, i'll adapt, you just have to make it work logically in a way that's easy to predict and reason with

[zealous barn]

i'm having a curious glitch with disassembly, where the original materials aren't taking any further damage

i can re-craft the same item infinite number of times, it seems

WHAT

i had the durability of the disassembly components INCREASE

what i did, was repair the item before disassembling

craft-repair-disassemble-repeat ...

[zealous barn]

huh, how did that container selection icon end up in middle of there? 😄

after alt-tabbing back to game, it's again where it should be

[zealous barn]

this infinite re-crafting+repairing without losing ingredient durability feels too cheaty, especially since i'm at a point where i need to grind crafting to get better equipment. time to take a break i suppose 😄

[zealous barn]

this happened again. it affected every container. upon resizing a container, it goes back to right place, and alt-tab fixes every container too

[mighty moss]

Hmm t think I get those

Mine is a white icon

[sweet monolith]

I have had that occure as well

[errant loom]

this has been around for awhile, what do you recommend?

i think the best way to handle it would be to track repairs/disassembly/reinforce on an item and have some kind of degraded performance based on previous actions

[zealous barn]

has it, really? because i thought repairing the item didn't affect the durability of the original ingredients, i thought you always got them back as they were when you crafted the item, plus durability damage on top of that

with the current system, you can partially repair some unrepairable ingredients such as strings, by crafting something repairable that uses strings, then you get the string back with only slight durability damage to it even if it was on the verge of breaking before

either way, it feels really strange to be able to reroll an item forever, it doesn't feel like the intended design. it completely takes mining out of the crafting loop too, you only need to get enough for one item and you can theoretically max out the blacksmithing with just recrafting with that

can't help but wonder if chiri accidentally changed something with this when attempting to fix performance of crafting/disassembly during long game sessions 🙂

[sturdy tusk]

I haven't touched this stuff

[zealous barn]

there was the fake item event thing, did you do something with that?

[sturdy tusk]

fake item event?

oh i remember that

[zealous barn]

relating to item tracking that got really slow for no obvious reason, and setdurability triggering events for fake items

[sturdy tusk]

I don't think I actually ever touched that

[zealous barn]

oh, lol

i've only been playing shorter sessions so i hadn't gotten to the laggy times 🙂

[uneven phoenix]

fovmfidjmgidtrkpfjmo OH MY GOD. please i have not unlocked the altar and I have 8 different runes

I would personally suggest mentioning the altar to be "clothed" unless some altars don't require fabric.

[tidal island]

8 "different" runes?

[uneven phoenix]

lemme re-correct

3 of the evil and 5 of the good

[tidal island]

ough

my save got corrupted

I can't even export it to show you

it seems all of my items are corrupted too even in the backup

including items in containers

oh lol it reset all of my settings too

oh well

or... not all of them?

oh wait it would have set my quickslots based on my last loaded save even if the rest of the settings were deleted

[zealous barn]

that looks very much like how the game looks before it finishes fully loading. it flashes like that for me too

check the logs for anything strange? or enable developer tools from options, and check if there's any errors in the console

[zealous barn]

ANNOYANCE: hotkeys and actionbar. if i press ctrl-something once, i usually release the ctrl first ... which means it will now activate the non-ctrl version of the hotkey as well

[errant loom]

do you have Steam Cloud enabled and how many other devices do you have running it for Wayward?

there's a back-up of your settings as well in the backup folder

[tidal island]

I do have steam cloud enabled, I just got back from vacation so I was playing on a laptop at my parents house

is the save file salvageable? I don't know why the item thumbnails aren't loading

[errant loom]

you'll have to grab it from the laptop as Steam may have corrupted it if it didn't finish uploading on that end

and if you ignored the warning locally, it would have merged half the upload

or some other event similar to that

[tidal island]

well the laptop is in Florida so

I'm actually surprised this failure mode is possible since this is item sprite corruption and I thought item sprites were all generic

[errant loom]

was there any cloud warning on your end?

[tidal island]

on my desktop yes but not on the laptop

I don't remember if there was a cloud warning on the laptop though so they're probably was

[mighty moss]

i deleted all my save data cause i got bored just one little bit bored n i self destructed, kamikaze all my hotkeys everything gone

https://tenor.com/view/whee-well-that-was-fun-falling-down-exhausted-are-we-having-fun-yet-gif-14164821

https://tenor.com/view/thumbs-up-baby-gif-5199053054594704929

[errant loom]

if you are still having these issues, i'd like to see an export of your global save data, that is strange that it is messing stuff up

i'm guessing there's some errors going on preventing image loading or something

[tidal island]

sure, I'll just need a minute, I'm working on something in genshin

[errant loom]

i was able to import 14-2 just fine and the thumbnail was there for me

[tidal island]

ooh really?

[errant loom]

so it's likely something else going on

[tidal island]

did you load it? The thumbnail on the menu is fine but the items are not

[errant loom]

yep!

you may have to just give me a full .zip of your "save" folder too

if the global options don't trigger it for me

[tidal island]

they're back :D

[errant loom]

oh

hmm

[tidal island]

maybe it was a bug in the nightly build? Thanks for checking!

bug/interaction that is

[errant loom]

doesn't seem likely

[tidal island]

holy shit cartilage!!!!

[mighty moss]

Niiiiiiiiice

[mighty moss]

new world n i can now zoom out this far i have .75 ui scaling

lol never mind

forgot to turn of mods

on a side note can i get like one more click on zooming out?

like just one little more bounce on the zoom out cause my screen small

not a bug but the description isn't following the options window

[zealous barn]

no, that's definitely a bug ;D

[zealous barn]

it'd be nice if this menu had protect/unprotect bag, so i could toggle if the bag's contents are used for crafting or not without having to hunt for the correct bag in my inventory

[zealous barn]

hmm. i think the sacrifice preview is broken. or maybe the invocation item bonuses are counted wrong? i'm pretty sure i only sacrificed up to one bar above neutral, but now it's two bars above neutral instead

random issue: the glyph names aren't written in the logfiles at all. "You placed 1 rune of onto a granite altar." etc

[tidal island]

still a bit annoyed at the inventory desyncs, where it has the magical property icon in the inventory even though the item has no magical property

oh well that's fun

the game doesn't believe in my relic joshua tree

[merry rose]

nice to see some variation for food and cooking

I hope to see more flour recipe and variation in the future

[junior valve]

when invoking/sacrificing, alignment gain over cap is applied up to twice
for example, I am at 60k good and 32k evil, net 28k alignment, I sacrifice for 10k value
code AlignmentManager.addGood() increases good by 10k to 70k, and calls reduceEvil() with the excess of 6k above cap (64k), which reduces evil to 26k, and finally calls check()
the issue is that check() then also directly reduces both good and evil by the amount above cap, so good ends up at 64k and evil at 20k, net 44k alignment, 16k change

[mighty moss]

Man my last run was uuuuuunnnlucky damn that's one jump to the left of starting island to find wetlands and one to the bottom for volcanic

my last run i made 40 something n found ice caps all over n my last jump in the 40's was when i found volcanic

op op

n compared to the last run im paying more attention to the difficulty and making early alter slows the rate rep goes down, wasn't able to get alot of positive runes to get that 64k good rep but staying neutral for as long as i have feels good, no crazy angry mobs yet.

almost died early cause a harpy and gost both spawned in the cave near base lol, had a one tile near death barley slipped away experience which was nice

[junior valve]

not sure if intended:
getHighestItemActionTierForAction() (used in Refine and Upgrade actions) returns number 1 higher than actually possible
the number it returns is highest base action tier of the specific action (correct), increased by "getLength(r.Quality) - 1"
Quality has 7 elements (None, Random, Superior, Remarkable, Exceptional, Mastercrafted, Relic), so it returns 6
However, highest action tier bonus from quality is +5
Then there is the fact that the actual highest possible action tier is not reachable, as it would require relic quality of items that are currently only obtainable by crafting

[errant loom]

i checked and this is correct since "None" is +1

relics of all items are technically possible

[junior valve]

possible, but not obtainable ingame, unless I am missing something
as far as I can tell, you can get relic quality items from aberrant creature drops/butcher/produce, treasure (locked chests), relic plants/terrain, burning/disassembling relic items, and stocked on merchants
BronzeRefinementTools for example is not listed as loot anywhere, and it is ItemTypeGroup.NotStockedOnMerchants, so it wont spawn on merchants either, only craftable

[errant loom]

wow, you got a lot of insider knowledge haha

i think it's actually lower than it should be

somehow

will check

[tidal island]

they've hacked your servers and obtained the secret source code files for your game

in retrospect you probably shouldn't have set the password to 1111

I'm making this joke while also assuming that there's not actually a substantial compilation/compression/minification step in your build process

I might actually really enjoy looking at the source code of this game, I just haven't started because I'm not sure if it's packed in the executable or something and the developer tools are a little bit inconvenient to access in game, inconvenient enough that I care more about playing the game than decompiling the source

[junior valve]

just reading code included in the game, production.js, somewhat annoying with what I assume is obfuscation, but readable enough

[tidal island]

it might not be obfuscation, it might be minification or it might be some automatic step that TypeScript does

I don't think Unlok is going to great lengths to hide or protect their intellectual property or anything

[junior valve]

could be, dont know what exactly minification is, but there is a lot of single-character variables used and things like !0 for true and !1 for false
the way I get it is in game options : enable developer mode, toggle developer tools, navigate to sources, app.asar/out/js/game/Production.js
the file is a single line by default, so click Pretty print button at the botto, and save the resulting file somewhere
you could also follow the modding guide to extract the app.asar archive and get the file like that

[tidal island]

oo

[mighty moss]

refining a hammock of persistence is bugged? you can just keep refining

after the base durability hits 1

[tidal island]

what happens if you change the magical properties after that

[mighty moss]

didn't do any further testing

it's a mastercraft hammock

ima be humble and accept the gift i think

[tidal island]

lol

[zealous barn]

since the names of the locals and many other things aren't needed for execution, the minification nukes them. it's a bit silly and makes the stacktraces and debugging quite horrible, but saves a tiny bit of disk space. it's more useful for websites where it can have an actual impact on the page load times, albeit in the millisecond/microsecond range...

[sturdy tusk]

The obfuscation was to protect the source code, but we intend to remove the obfuscation sometime soon

Just haven't gotten around to it yet

[tidal island]

Oh it is obfuscated?

[mighty moss]

hey im trying to sort my inventory by how do you get the emoji?

in game

[sturdy tusk]

not typeable

[mighty moss]

well thats tough

[mighty moss]

so i've connected all the fresh water tiles in this mountain to see if i can make a infinite water source hot to know it it became infinite? \

[sturdy tusk]

Doesn't look like enough

I think it needs 500 shallow water tiles, regular depth water tiles count as 2

You can test it by gathering water, but the tile the water is pulled from might be random, rather than always being from the tile you're gathering water from? I don't actually know

[mighty moss]

hmmmm im gathering from the stragglers but i'll try one of the connecting ones and see

ok it might be taking from a different tile im not sure

[mighty moss]

ok im dumb and crazy i was gonna dig out a 22*23 lake and was gonna dig it to deep water

that would be 1012 water tiles i think

ok so 22*12 fits in the middle of the mountain there and it gets me 528

i think i already have infinite but i wanna make it pretty

does that work?

oh yeah lol

lake chika shaw!!... i'll probs die to some random thing but at least i have this to show

[junior valve]

It should
looking at code, 500 water points are needed to prevent consumption, like chiri said
when gathering liquid, the consumed tile is the last one it checks
when digging to expand existing water, it is the tile where it finds the 50th water point
If I read the code corrently, tiles are checked depth-first in order of x+1, x-1, y+1, y-1, not sure what directions are used for coordinates
my lake, main rectangle is 25*10 of normal water, except the caves:

[mighty moss]

very cool

[sturdy tusk]

0 0 is the northwest corner i believe

[junior valve]

bug, I seem to have somehow got stuck with a permanent Chemistry skill bonus
It seems to have originated from that wooden shield, as equipping it again does not increase the bonus, but unequipping it again does not clear it either
I have not used the shiled for quite a while, so I dont know when it started, only noticed it now when trying to find the equip to change it into a more useful skill
further testing, equipping another item of Chemistry replaces the skill bonus with the value of the new item, effect still remains when unequipped
equipping both properly applies effects from both, and unequipping just one removes its effect, but effect of the last one remains even after unequipping it
attached save a bit later than screenshot, did some crafting to get another item of Chemistry

[sturdy tusk]

Nice catch!

That specific skill can't reset due to a bug

[rose mango]

Not sure if known but in the current version crafting/disassembling items doesn't seem to reduce the durability of the components

Edit: I repair the item before disassembling and that does seem to make a difference

[junior valve]

Alter-ing item of invocation removes the magic effect
looking at code, magicalPropertyDescription for Invoking has no value for isValidEnum
If I understand the code correctly, the getRandom function in Alter handler that selects the new subtype cant select any when isValidEnum is not defined, which then fails to add the new invalid subtype, while still removing the old one

[junior valve]

I also have not seen any items of Invocation for the Neutral god, though I cant see in code what would cause that, maybe just really bad luck, will check when Alteration of them gets fixed

maybe I found the cause : I have not seen them, even though I had them, because the Deity type displayed in text is binary between Good or Evil, so some items of Evil Invocation are in fact Neutral Invocation, dont know if intended
/MagicalPropertyTypes :
[i.MagicalPropertyType.Invoking]: [{1=${a.Deity.Good}?{$DEITY:GOOD}:{$DEITY:EVIL}} invocation ...

seems to be so, now only if it is intended or not

[sturdy tusk]

Thank you, will be fixed in next build

[errant loom]

that is a super old bug haha

ah, not as old as i thought

[mighty moss]

yo I'm having a hard time setting things to disassemble sometimes like the action I'm trying to set just doesn't want to register? or something either i end up with the white icon of the action I'm trying to set or the action goes blank and it resets

tried setting a disassemble string on the action bar n 2 minutes of fiddling later the action finally goes through lol don't know what that's about but i got it earlier as well when i tried setting a drop all stones action

maybe I'm just messing something up idk

[atomic bolt]

Does it work differently if you right-click the string and select "Dissassemble"?

[mighty moss]

it's to dissassemble bulk string

it works normally manual mode but when i try to make the hotbar sction it just gets stubborn sometimes

[atomic bolt]

So it's likely something about how the hotbar interacts with the action?

[errant loom]

could you export your save next time it happens?

i have no idea what it could be

[mighty moss]

I do drag and drop the string into the hot bar if that'll give a hint

[errant loom]

i'll check

when you set it, are you setting use best item?

[mighty moss]

It auto goes to use specific item

Hmmmm

When I click on use best item is when I get the weirdness

And the of any quality does to the quality of the initial item I put in

[atomic bolt]

New Arcane items: Potions! Either a liquid that can be put into an existing container, or a new vial container full of the magic liquid. Initially just found as random loot/drops, but later a brewing mechanic (using the retort?) could allow players to brew their own. Potions initially are unidentified, but can have characteristics such as color, visual texture, and weight (as a range) to help get some pre-identification but drinking the potion will be the ultimate discovery! Perhaps, using one's chemistry skill can help identify them, or make a new Alchemy skill for this.
As to what these potions can do, that's up to your imagination, but my initial suggestions would be: Healing/Regen (slower, time-based), Speed, Resistance (elemental, physical, etc), Night Vision, Poison, Paralysis, and Holy Essence (super rare! full HP heal, removes all statuses, restores HP/Stam/Hunger/Thirst to 100%).

There should be mechanics to allow throwing of these potions to apply their effects on the target it hits, so offensive possibilities can be a thing.

I remember a mechanic from an old Rogue-like game, Angband, which switched up the descriptions of most of the unidentified potions to keep you guessing what they are each run, so discovery had to take its course each new game. It would be interesting to implement this as well to keep things fresh each restart.

[sweet monolith]

Same with Brogue, a wonderful Rogue-like that I've only beaten twice 🤣

[errant loom]

it will be a bit different with wayward since things are mostly crafted

maybe with dungeons we can introduce them earlier

[atomic bolt]

Yeah, that's reasonable. Thanks for considering. ;2)

[sweet monolith]

Maybe coating arrows and bullets in potions to apply effect on a hit instead of throwing the potions at the enemy. Potions could also be applied to traps. Some hostile creatures can set up poison-coated traps or paralyzing traps.

• 1 potion can coat 5 arrows or bullets and 1 trap.

[sweet monolith]

Suggestion:
Hidden traps

• Placed traps can be hidden by the player and trap-placing creatures
• Hidden traps will assume the appearance of the tile they are placed upon.
• The player will have a chance to notice traps hidden by other entities based on their trapping skill.

[atomic bolt]

Standing in place and waiting can act as "searching" for traps as well, with a good enough skill, they can be spotted.

Trapped chests!

[sweet monolith]

Suggestion:
Cursed Chests

• When a player opens a cursed chest they are immediately inflicted with the cursed status.
• Cursed Chests can be used as regular chests but will always curse the player when opened.
• Cursed chests inflict an additional ailment such as poison or bleeding if the player opening them is already cursed.

Some treasure chests spawn as cursed chests.

[atomic bolt]

One-time curse charge, or curse every time it's opened?

I'd prefer the former.

[sweet monolith]

Every time they open, it makes more sense for a cursed chest. It's not something you should be opening.

Maybe have a hidden way to identify if the chest is cursed. Say for example if you pour fresh water on a cursed chest it creates a pool of salt water underneath.

[atomic bolt]

It could go either way, I guess, with one-time curses, or multiple charges fired each time it's opened. Identification of a curse may depend on the player's skill level in the related field of the curse, or casting a detection (or a blessing) to find it.

[sweet monolith]

Doesn't need to tie into any skill, it's something that interacts with the cursed mechanic. Cursed chests inflict the cursed status on the player and if the player is already cursed it will either inflict poison or bleed on the player.

• Treasure chests that are uncovered while the player is cursed have a higher chance of being cursed chests. Cursed treasure chests have a higher loot table.

[autumn dust]

When moving items that are stacked it will often take the same item from an opened container and move those instead, or drop them if it was the intention

[tacit oar]

hi has anyone in a 3 player multiplayer noticed extended loading between "advancing island time" for non host players? - simulated turns

[atomic bolt]

OK, after a few hundred hours under my belt with the latest release (Beacon's Call) and development build (Runekeeper), I think I have a little bit of an idea where things are at and have the following things to consider for game balance/pacing:

1. Given the goal of "collecting the treasures" as being the end-game event, consider all major aspects of Wayward to be accessible to players as they work towards this goal. Specifically, certain aspects of gameplay like Thaumaturgy (gems for golems!) may need rebalancing to be accessible at earlier stages of the game. This may be a by-product of adding newer features to a game what was built around the earlier features, and as one alternative consider making the main goal to be re-worked to be more lengthy to add play time.
2. Consider nerfing monster resistances slightly (5-10% down from current dev branch levels) or buffing player melee/ranged damage by the same amount.
3. Add manuals and books detailing the new features of the game (glues, thaumaturgy, invocation, etc) or add "ruins" depicting structures utilizing these new features (altars, chests/bags with tools/materials to making these new resources), which help better guide players to learning these new crafting/building techniques.
4. Civilization scoring should be scaled to attract merchants at an earlier time - scores of 2000+ should guarantee at least 1 merchant, and any score above 1000 should guarantee spawning a merchant with at least a 25% chance per time "segment". Conversely, make the cost of building settlements cheaper or allow each piece to give more civ scoring (by a factor of 5-10x of what it is now) to accelerate this.

To summarize, this is a crazy fun game, rewarding those who explore and experiment, though I am worried if it's getting swamped with feature creep. Stick to the original goals and get them done (get out of early access) then look at the fluff later.

Thanks for a great game, and I really look forward to seeing where this goes!

[tacit oar]

I think adding something like .10 thaumatury xp for exceptional+ crafted items would make sense due to the character feeling more attuned to the islands mystical properties. Later doodads and such teaching runes you can add to a leatherbound book (x paper+ string + glue + hide or leather) would take making your own enchantment book and exploration to a new high. (Just adding diety runes to action tables opened my mind to this). later game monsters dropping things to add on to items for different damage types, allowing for like. Fire elementals giving you a gem to add fire to your weapon. Or abberant ice creatures a cold gem. For instance. Finding altars with a rune to copy into your book. Just stuff to change the player from "i have enough pem and water to travel 10 islands and be chill. To "omg i found a rune of magnitude now my backpacks are awesome"

[tacit oar]

Personally a lasoo or leash you can drag tames with would be cool. But cages fix that.

Sharpglass not being an end craft. Used for fragile arrowheads, or spear heads

[sturdy tusk]

So the changes going live tonight will add an entirely new automation workflow for crafting, where you have a bit more control

Completely unintentionally

So what I just did is add the ability to set an action slot to use an action with "Use Hovered Item"

What that will mean is that you can set up a chest or a container with a few items in it that are the things you want to craft or dismantle or disassemble or whatever

And then set a few action slots to Craft with Hovered Item, Dismantle Hovered Item, and Disassemble Hovered Item

And then you can just move your mouse over the items and hold down the keys for the action slots you want and it'll just keep doing it as long as you hold down the button

Ah right, forgot, dismantle and disassemble require hovering over the exact item you want to dismantle or disassemble, that's not type based like crafting

[autumn dust]

Also, I don't know if it's the same for others, but when I drag and drop an item on an action slot, I would like it to stay on the same action/filters (any common variant, any rare etc...)

[sturdy tusk]

Dropping an item on a slot is implicitly "I want to use this specific item in this slot", if it's the same action there it uses that action, otherwise it uses the default action for the new item

There's not currently a shortcut to drag an item type to a slot (but there could be)

[autumn dust]

Yeah, but in some way the new mechanic to use hovered items could solve the issue (at least for me)
But imo the slot should stay on the same action and take the item main action when dragged only if the slot is cleared beforehand

[atomic bolt]

It may he helpful to show a short clip demonstrating this.

[errant loom]

i'm just hovering over items and pressing the action slot keybind

[atomic bolt]

Noice

[errant loom]

i should have shown crafting too

[atomic bolt]

That would help too. ;2)

[errant loom]

but it works the same

[atomic bolt]

If there's a way, please pin these in here and in #wayward, so we can refer going forward. ;2)

[autumn dust]

Thanks, thanks a lot ❤️

[sturdy tusk]

I've just completely rebalanced invoke, sacrifice, and piety skill gain rate. When the build goes out tomorrow let me know how it feels, ideally on a new save but the data will be relevant either way

Rune quality is now also relevant

[atomic bolt]

I can try a new save and see.

[tacit oar]

question, would coconut trees be considered as an addition to coastals for beaches? or is it desert locked for balance reasons?

[autumn dust]

imo the "free" container from the coconut would make it kind of imbalanced for coastal islands

[tacit oar]

understood

[sturdy tusk]

<@&158970175637422081> See the poll above.

Feedback here would be amazing from people who’ve played with the current take on the system. The biggest worry right now is that changing from time-based to something progression-based would make it more complicated again. I personally think this take might help a bit, though? Because if it’s based on currently highest achieved progression-related stuff, like skills or highest atk/def, I can display that in the UI, so at least then there’s something to point to as the cause of why things are ramping up. Rather than just being frustrated at not having the piety skill to fix it because you progressed that skill a bit too slowly. I think at this point y’all might know better than me though, with the number of hours you have lol

To note: this is probably the last chance to have a big say in the fundamentals of the system before it’s locked in for the major. (I intend to spend the rest of the time coming up on fixing container ui bugs and prepping for release.) If you think you have better ideas on how Wayward should handle its difficulty I’d love to hear them!

(Side note: I think part of the reason i’m pondering this stuff again is my worry that the system doesn’t feel entirely cohesive right now being time-based. It interacts weirdly with sleep and with island travel and in mp. I think i’m just nervous it’s going to get us more angry reviews on steam lol)

(Side note 2: The original system was a combination of progression based and time based. The original system had things like skill gain and stuff basically fast forward the ramp to when it would’ve been tougher, so it wasn’t displayable in the UI like a purely progression-based system could be)

And finally thanks y’all, to anyone who reads and comments, and thank you as well for your patience on the length of time it’s taken for this update to cook. It’s entirely my bad that it’s taken so long

[sweet monolith]

So I've been only playing with abnormalizer and dying repeatedly longest run being 34 days average 7-15 days. General thoughts.

Regarding Time Ramp
Pros:

• The time ramp feels like a proper challenge with less opportunity to cheese the system.
• Having some time based ramp incentivizes the player to level themselves up.

Cons:

• You really have to prepare for what is coming. You can't really stall the ramping alignment shift meaningfully until day 20.
• It feels like if you aren't properly prepared you get overwhelmed by hostile creatures. To be fair most of my deaths were from failed attempts at hobgoblin taming.
• There is less moments of peace instead there is a constant feeling of doom is coming must collect runes.

Regarding Progression Ramp
Pros:

• It would allow more free time to explore in the early game as players would have more incentive to explore instead of train their skills.
  Cons:
• Would it discourage players from leveling up? Probably not.

Thoughts
I'd tie both ramp systems together. Have a 2,000 or 4,000 base time ramp occur over a couple of weeks. Have the remaining ramp come from the players total skill level or stats. That way you have the initial challenge to motivate the player to learn the system and the player has more agency over the amount of ramp they experience past the first couple of weeks

[atomic bolt]

I agree with much of what @sweet monolith said above; I like the combination of time and skill/progression to determine the ramp-up of . I know some of this is based on what you - the developer - have in mind as a "target" skill average by day X, and to incentivize successful players to be above the target. I also know this is based on allowances for variances in playing styles - where someone who likes to play more casual or less-aggressive (eg: less fighting, more farming) and scaling the ramp-up in accordance with actions taken or a ratio of certain skills (malevolent-benevolent) to create a modifier M where M = value() / value () (or something like this).

I also think selection of game mode could determine ramp-up style would be interesting, allowing players to select a more aggressive or less aggressive progression, though allowing a "standard" play to be somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.

[sweet monolith]

Regarding a more aggressive ramp up style

When the player is cursed they gain 10,000 every night regardless of current ramp level, or your current nightly ramp amount gets doubled 😜

[sweet monolith]

I'd have skill based ramp tied to milestones related to total skill level % "Mastery" or something like that.
Player would gain
1,000 ramp at 100% total skill level
2,000 ramp at 200% total skill level
3,000 ramp at 400% total skill level
etc.

[raw shell]

What about also having an option to keep it stable soo players can choose what difficulty level they want to stay on?

[sturdy tusk]

Thanks all for the thoughts!

[sturdy tusk]

Thinking about it, there could probably still be a time component, but I don't really think it's necessary because you get faster ramping at the start anyway just by the fact that skills progress faster at first

Also with some experimenting I did yesterday, I believe the best way to use skills for ramp isn't to total them, it's to use solely whichever one currently (ie, based on its current %) has the biggest impact on your ability to survive against harder enemies

Regarding

scaling the ramp-up in accordance with actions taken or a ratio of certain skills (malevolent-benevolent) to create a modifier M where M = value() / value () (or something like this).
We would never do this again, this is the old grinding system again functionally

[sweet monolith]

So skills would be weighted based on their usefulness in general survival with the more survival based skills having a ramp associated with them as they are leveled?

Or your highest leveled skill becomes tied to the ramp value directly and if a different skill becomes your highest leveled skill that skill then becomes tied to ramp directly?

Either sound viable as long as it doesn't de-evolve into the old metagame of only doing certain actions because the player is trying to cause a ferocity swing. I much prefer the invoking the deities approach going on now. It gives some in game explanation for why there is a ferocity system and I like how the ramp is a nightly occurrence. It makes the game world feel more alive.

The whole striking a balance between survival and maintaining peace with the Island spirits is an interesting concept.

[sturdy tusk]

So the idea is that each skill has a "weight". Say you have 33% skill in blacksmithing, 0.33. And then blacksmithing has a weight of 2, which gets multiplied with it to be 0.66. The same thing happens with dual wielding, which is at 48%, at a weight of 0.5. IE, 0.24. The 0.66 is higher than the 0.24 so between those two, only blacksmithing is taken into account

Those are just random numbers but you get the idea

The idea is that all skills are compared like this, and it only takes the one with the currently highest impact

[sturdy tusk]

Picturing something like this

[errant loom]

i would probably abstract the % because players are just going to focus on it the entire time like rep number

[sturdy tusk]

Yeah it would be until you reach at least like mid piety or something? Maybe higher

I think it's fine to show later game players full numbers because at that point they already vibe with the way the game works

I think with low piety it probably wouldn't even show the curse stat actually. It would only show in that shared tooltip, and all it would be doing is listing the factors and that you're drifting towards every night

[sweet monolith]

I'm assuming at a base glance the % is showing how much progress I have made to reaching maximum alignment ramp.

[sturdy tusk]

Yep

[sweet monolith]

Maybe could have something filling up as the % increases.

Spirit
As you gain Spirit through your strength and skill, nights become harder.

If the player never dies, when they reach maximum Spirit they gain a "Spirit of the Undying" which gives them a luck boost and bragging rights to their friends.

This is lost if they die and they are left with just a normal Spirit

[sweet monolith]

Not particularly keen on the whole skill weight concept. It seems unnecessarily restrictive on certain play styles. I think all play styles should be treated equally and I don't like idea of there being optimal and sub optimal skills when it comes to managing your alignment ramp.

The same ramp progression curve could be reached with total skill level and it would be less confusing for the player to understand. They wouldn't have to learn all the skill weights and stuff.

[sturdy tusk]

You might be right on it being restrictive, but I disagree the player would have to learn anything (it always showing the highest skill is enough info imo) and that total skill level would be at all similar in effect. Skills are not created equal. I think I’d be more okay with it if the skill factor was weighted lower in the curse calculation and the primary weighting was from other factors, but I also trust the other factors less

[tacit oar]

Could difficulty be tied to rune acquisition? Or possibly some item to craft (similar to the prior orb) which could be seen as a generator of karma? Such as effigys to hard or easy or nuetral?

[zealous barn]

difficulty progression is quite complicated, and i dont think tying it to skills is good because it basically punishes progression and makes it important to not skill up unnecessary things. it's really harsh for casual players

i think it's better to let players deliberately take risks, i.e. the difficulty should be tied to a choice that brings risks and rewards. going down into the caves is such a choice. exploring certain islands is such a choice

or perhaps some kind of per-game milestones should influence the progression. say, a really slow time based progression, but it speeds up the first time you kill a peaceful creature, it speeds up again the first time you kill a monster, it speeds up the first time you craft a weapon with no tool use, speeds up the first time you make a metal item...

maybe digging up treasure should immediately ramp up the difficulty. or maybe there could be tombs/coffins that you could dig/break open, for a chance of loot in exchange of increased difficulty

it just feels horrendous if every stone you mine increases difficulty, every crop you harvest, every time you pet a goat the world grows evil?

if the difficulty changes based on player actions, it should involve sparsely spaced and deliberate choices. maybe on the first playthrough the player wouldn't know that some specific action makes the gods grow interested in them, but the next time they would, and they would do that action only when they're ready

[sturdy tusk]

Like I said above it’s only the single skill that has the most weighted effect, “unnecessary” things probably wouldn’t be contributing enough to be the skill affecting difficulty

I tested it as all skills always affect it and only the single skill with highest current (weighted) effect and the former felt horrible and impossible to balance

[zealous barn]

oh, i wasn't reading carefully lol. even if it's the max, it still feels bad if you have to deliberately limit and keep track of skill progression to stay safe

i feel it would still discourage progression, which isn't a good thing. i know i would totally find a playstyle that minimizes the difficulty rampup even if it's slow and annoying

just spend days and days grinding for safety before doing anything meaningful. after all, skills are permanent, once you gain them there's no going back

so i'd probably grind EVERY skill a little bit, carefully keeping them low enough, to gain runes while keeping the ramp-up at minimum

[sturdy tusk]

that is the idea more or less, encouraging experimentation and doing a bit of everything. and we can weight the difficulty less on skills and more on other factors if it feels too restrictive

[zealous barn]

but it will quickly devolve into "skill X is the primary one, it's now completely forbidden from use"

[sturdy tusk]

that's kinda interesting though isn't it?

because it's not "forbidden", you just have to make the decision whether to keep using (and thereby raising) the skill at the cost of pushing the difficulty higher

[zealous barn]

i'm the type of person that plays Factorio mining ores by hand because it doesn't cause pollution

(if you haven't played Factorio, don't, it's very addictive and will make you neglect more important things) ;D

anyway, game mechanics provide incentives for players and guide their playstyle. i just dont think it's good to punish them for doing the thing they've been doing the most so far

[sturdy tusk]

but trees eat the pollution... if you want to prevent the trees dying just turn off the factory for a bit...

i've watched too many challenge let's plays with max evolve biters

[zealous barn]

i know, and i build things inside forests for that reason, and play factorio reaaally slow. i usually aim for games where biters never attack even once 😄

[sturdy tusk]

i guess it depends on if you consider a difficulty ramp punishment

if you do then i think we won't agree on this

the idea is for it to be dynamic enough that it feels like the enemies you're getting are at or near your level

if it doesn't feel like that's happening then it's bad

[zealous barn]

low difficulty = easy to progress and get things done, high difficulty = just have to run away from everything and get nothing done

[sturdy tusk]

sorry i guess i don't mean difficulty, i mean scaling of what enemies can spawn

[zealous barn]

like, a single skeleton somewhere on the island during daytime, early game... what a disaster

it takes such a long time to kite it, and you dont have skills to throw properly, and you only get chance to craft/throw when the skeleton chooses to not advance towards you that turn

and that's just one single dangerous enemy. of course, if you've had the chance to prepare a bunch of traps, most mobs are really easy to kite-kill with them, assuming you know to do that

early game combat is just really really really annoying

i guess you need dungeons in the game before some difficulty ramping / progression mechanics are even possible

[zealous barn]

the problem is that any dynamic difficulty mechanic will change how players play the game. they will do whatever they can to maximize their power while keeping enemies weak

i favor the type of progression where getting stronger simply means you gain access to more difficult areas, and the easy areas stay as they were

[raw shell]

I agree with this, at high ferocity on the new build the enemy spawns are massive and everybody is aberant

the only solution there for me was to reroll back, build everything soo enemies wont spawn inside and do a 3 layer of walls, works against everything except flying wich are still annoying

[sturdy tusk]

and the problem with that and wayward is that sailing is not balanced how i balanced it originally (i made it really cheap to sail so that you could go somewhere and easily immediately back right back out if it seemed too much for right now), and drathy wants there to be at least some scaling difficulty everywhere

this is less the "optimal" way for it to be, and more that this is pretty much our only option right now with the content we have in the game

with dungeons i think we'll be able to do another pass at this

or maybe we won't need to because we're also going to rework some gamemode stuff

[zealous barn]

it's alright for the scaling to exist, but i dont like that getting more powerful directly makes things worse

i thought the piety system was introduces precisely so that players would have more freedom to do what they want without worrying about how it affects difficulty 😄

[sturdy tusk]

the time based method doesn't work because there are people that optimise their gameplay so much that they can deal with anything far before the time they reach max scaling and can undo the effects of that scaling with piety

and there are also players that take so long that they die every single time or are in wayward: hardest mode possible now you have to kite literally everything

[zealous barn]

i'm fine with the scaling affected by a few larger progression decisions. just not every action

for example, choosing to mine high quality rocks, choosing to mine ores, ....

i haven't played in quite a while, but last time i played the biggest problem getting out of the spiral of danger was that you couldnt gain any runes while kiting enemies

as soon as enemies appear, you spend less time doing the things that can get things safe again

... which encourages using every possible exploit to farm runes early. such as hitting tamed animals and healing/feeding them endlessly because that's a super fast way to gain runes

dunno if you ever rebalanced it, but i remember a single coyote giving me 17 runes that way

[sturdy tusk]

I wonder if we could detect kiting and reward it

[zealous barn]

if you give runes for kiting, someone's going to die because it pushes them above the weight limit ;D

so, if you reward kiting with a rune, you better also grant an extra turn when that happens

[sturdy tusk]

could figure out a new way to award runes at the end of the day based on things like avg distance from creatures over the course of the day

that could be interesting actually, just dump a bunch of runes on the player right at sunset every day

we can add an option to make runes go to the ground instead of into the inventory

[zealous barn]

people would want to toggle that feature only after it's too late

making runes 0-weight would be nice, so you could always keep all of them with you. or maybe you could add separate weightless runes that are more rare?

that way kiting and other forms of movement could award weightless runes

perhaps affected by what the player has equipped while moving

[sturdy tusk]

runes were originally meant to be a more ephemeral item like that

[mystic moat]

Something that might be interesting is forcing players to actually craft runes themselves using some kind of 'essences' given by actions instead of just spawning runes

With material used with the essence influencing the quality of the rune

Then, the essences can all be 0-weight

[sweet monolith]

I think runes not having weight would be nice, there is so much weight management as is.

[sweet monolith]

I like the idea of runes be dumped on the player daily without any real explanation to the player on how or why it happens. Something that occurs in the morning after your first night.

I don't think difficulty progression should be tied to individual weighted skills.

Skills levels should provide a weighted score that is added together to get your "Master" level. When this mastery level reaches a certain number (milestone) there is an increase of ramp. So for example ramp at 1,000 mastery level you get 1,000 ramp and at 20,000 mastery level you get 10,000 ramp.

Having progression tied to individual skills is finicky and exploitable.

[misty kelp]

should more nature based skills lower the mastery level? seems odd that skills that would give you runes would make the game harder by leveling them.

[sweet monolith]

That would be the same thing as the old reputation system

Maybe nature based skills don't increase mastery level at all? Or give only a percentage of a mastery level.

I would like to garden without worry of a major ramp increase.

[raw shell]

Thats a nice idea, maybe keep "peaceful" skills down or remove them completely

Like gardening removes ferocity right now and in the new build could either not add ferocity or very little of it

[fallow vortex]

the ferocity counter and the sacrifice mechanic should be tied to turns rather than days so it works better with modified day lengths

[sturdy tusk]

it is based on turns

it just only applies at night as well

[sturdy tusk]

the value it uses for required turns might be based on the day length in turns though

[fallow vortex]

i see i was messing with some extreme day lengths and with 100 turn days by day 10 i was about -32k meenwhile on eternal day it seemed impossible to move it

[sturdy tusk]

Yeah it wouldn’t work at all with eternal day

The entire system still needs reworking, I have plans but haven’t been available

[void whale]

Say, what did you end up settling on for this? I'm realizing now that I missed about half of this discussion and I've been very confused on how the alignment ramp works ever since

[sturdy tusk]

A new dev branch update should be out in the next couple days that will change things and be more clear

[void whale]

Oh, neat

[void whale]

So it looks like your skill level in things like blacksmithing increases your curse, is that right?

[sturdy tusk]

It's specifically the single skill that has the highest "impact"

It's what produced the most accurate results for how far I wanted players on the nightly alignment ramp

[void whale]

Gotcha. So if I want to take things easy for a while, I should hold off on leveling dangerous skills until night 20?

Or are there other factors besides skill and time?

[sturdy tusk]

No, there's no time based component anymore

[void whale]

Oh!

[sturdy tusk]

Progressing faster should result in more things like rune drops which should allow piety to progress faster too so I think it should balance out without a time component

So you're on a clock but the clock is more based on just how fast you happen to be progressing

More or less

[void whale]

Performing more actions yields both higher skills and more rune drops, you mean?

[sturdy tusk]

Yeah

Just bcuz you're doing more I mean

[void whale]

I like that a lot, actually. I was always a little wary about the alignment ramp being time-based

[sturdy tusk]

I do still need to go through all the rune sources and make sure none are like the go-to cheesy farm method, and that playing in a balanced way will collect both and runes at about equal speeds, but it's a bit lower priority atm than just fixing bugs

I want to get the release done

[void whale]

I believe in you!

[void whale]

I'm getting an on-and-off bug where certain graphical effects don't display—damage numbers and items going into my inventory from lumberjacking is what I've seen go missing so far

[void whale]

And maybe a bug related to tamed animals. I've had a couple of snakes "become untamed," but then they continue to follow me around peacefully and in the context menu I can only pet them (which they refuse), not command them or tame them.

[errant loom]

neutral creatures are broken currently

[void whale]

Gotcha

[void whale]

The last couple nights I've invoked to and it's taken me from negative to positive alignment, rather than capping at neutral. (Still not sure if this is the right place to report bugs but I'm doin' my best)

[mighty moss]

ok so I came back after BAR addiction, and got this error on a save, I ignored it and eventually it leads to a black screen... i have everything updated and restarted my pc as well as reset all data on in the game. This is a new save and here it is again so i stopped playing n here is a screenshot of it and the save file

also when the tile in front of you is full of items you can't drop items where your standing?

[errant loom]

will check

[mighty moss]

oh did you find the "dug" error?

maybe its something in the settings or some crazy thing

[errant loom]

should be good in the next build!

[mighty moss]

amazin

[mighty moss]

a rabbit just exploded 999 damage, should i be concerned?

[sturdy tusk]

It's a random event that happens sometimes

[mighty moss]

😂 waw well that scared the hell outa me

i took the screenshot and exited out

[sturdy tusk]

You've probably had it happen a bunch of times just been out of range

Or not realised because you were spamming the message log with other actions

It can happen to any creature afaik

Just very low chance

[mighty moss]

😂 welp that's nice

[errant loom]

you're supposed to say we have heard reports of that bug, but every time we ask the person that got it, they sent screenshots, but the "999" flipped around to "666", when they sent us the save, it was just an undecipherable corrupted mess, and then they later acted weird and deleted their discord account

[sturdy tusk]

lol

[mighty moss]

😂 😂

"lightening strike event"

[sturdy tusk]

ui preview for the runekeeper milestone, should be useful for if you want to collect a certain kind of rune but don't know what actions to focus on

note that things are only added to this list when you actually get a rune drop from them

I'll probably make this milestone have like a 50% unlock requirement btw, it's way too much to expect players to be able to find like a thousand different rune sources, when all of them have a fairly low drop chance

A lot of my dev time over the past couple majors has been going into discovery system stuff in preparation for a future update that overhauls the help menu, inspect dialog, etc to function as a discovery-based in-game wiki

It'll be sooooo nice when all the tooltips say at the bottom Encyclopedia: Shift + Right Click

[rotund pawn]

Thats awesome! How is something properly added into this system? Does it just record when a rune is gotten from an action or is it just everything that has a property like runeChance and is just revealed once you get a rune from it?

Super looking forward to Enyclopedia: Shift + Right click, that'll be huge!

[sturdy tusk]

It’s the latter, all “descriptions” that have a rune chance or similar property

[rotund pawn]

That's awesome, looking forward to the changes!

[round plaza]

*domain expansion - infinite void *

[void whale]

Is there going to still be some element of player behavior driving the difficulty system, or is it just going to be location-based? I've always loved how unique and creative the reputation/alignment system is

[sturdy tusk]

Kinda? But in general not really. It was definitely creative but we mostly consider it a really longterm failed experiment. I could see a world where reputation/alignment controlled the “factions” (like creatures or whatever) present, but the actual game difficulty would have needed to steadily increase for it to feel right. And even then we probably wouldn’t be happy with that because it’s so difficult to balance between extremely slow and inefficient new players vs veterans. And Drathy absolutely was not a fan of progression controlling how fast difficulty ramps up (partly bcuz it’s just hard to accurately convey that info to the player in a way that isn’t overwhelming af)

The most player actions will control the difficulty after the new set of changes comes in is:

• Different actions change which runes are dropping, and invoking runes can kinda make the game momentarily easier or harder (depending on what you’re after)
• Curse factors are exactly as they are now in the new version, which is kinda actions-based (though not really reputation bcuz it’s one-way), but now the % is going into the frequency and number and difficulty of curse events
• There is a single action you can do to prevent curse events… sleeping, lol

[native canopy]

Hey, don't go dismissing the value of a good night's sleep! XD
This plan does sound markedly less game-y that previous iterations, and that's getting me interested again

[void whale]

Why would game difficulty have to steadily increase? I've always thought of Wayward as more of a sandbox than a campaign

I can definitely see how progression-based difficulty isn't the way to go, but I'll be sad to see player influence as a means of affecting the game world gone.

[sturdy tusk]

It’s a roguelike

Its gone away from its roots but its still supposed to get harder as you play

[void whale]

I suppose that's understandable, even if it's not the game I'd personally prefer

[sturdy tusk]

Which is the main reason why we're doing escalating difficulty by distance instead A lot of people prefer the game as a sandbox than something that gets forcibly harder for you

[void whale]

Fair enough!

I don't mean to complain, y'all are doin' a fantastic job of hard work and I appreciate that

[errant loom]

the game's difficulty doesn't have to steadily increase - that's the point i think

it was always the player's choice, this is just a different design to that end

[rotund pawn]

Reposting this from the windows mod thread as a development branch bug:

Melting doodads don't stay consistently melting if they keep getting picked up/placed. You can essentially keep a wall from melting by placing it a few times.

1. Spawned in a ice wall doodad, used alt+right click to inspect. meltDecay was 2487
2. Picked up ice wall doodad into item, inspected: decay: 2591 - a significant jump up if Im reading it correctly
3. On continuing to pick up and place the doodad/item it mostly continues to trend back down with the ocassional jump back up with a pretty wide range (10,20, all the way to 250+ jumps in value)

So I'm not sure if I'm just reading it all incorrectly or not - but it seems to jump up pretty frequently instead of continuing to melt/decay. Long term I can keep an ice wall up on a warm island indefinitely.

[errant loom]

will check!

[junior valve]

Hello, do you know what binary/program is launched by steam when starting the game?
Seems that some update since 2. July has made the game stop working on Windows 7 : An error occurred while launching this game: Invalid platform
I enabled VxKex for wayward.exe and could launch it by running the exe, but Steam still shows the same error

seems that steam picks up that the game is running even when launched via wayward.exe, and loading old save seemed to work fine, so the only issue is the error when launching via steam

[errant loom]

it runs wayward.exe directly

[junior valve]

thanks for answering, probably just some error on Steam side, another game (Abiotic Factor) launches normally after enabling VxKex for it

[errant loom]

ya, nothing we can do on our end

[junior valve]

dont worry, I just didnt know how to check what command line steam uses to launch the game, I dont expect any changes to be done for unsupported system
seems the issue is in a combination of the game and how steam is launching it
using cmd to run wayward.exe gives me the error in screenshot, using explorer or run to launch it works normally

[errant loom]

i think you could technically make your own wayward.exe that launches the other

the rich presence stuff maybe wouldn't work though

or overlay

[junior valve]

What is the intended behaviour for fishing in player-modified bodies of water?
When fishing in water that I modified before successfully fishing there for the first time, I always get message There are no fish or resources at this location
dropping food to refill fish as normal does not help
examples

generated shallow -> fish -> too shallow message -> dig deeper -> no fish message
generated deep -> set down terrain -> dig deeper -> no fish message
generated deep -> fish -> fished successfully -> set down terrain -> dig deeper -> fished successfully```

[mystic moat]

modified, or created

manmade water isn't supposed to have fish

[errant loom]

i think that all sounds intended, yes

did you have an issue with that?

[mystic moat]

I do think it would be nice to have a way to populate manmade pools with fish. Maybe a rare chance of fishing up eggs with a fish?

[junior valve]

I have no issue with it, just that it seemed like a bug since it was inconsistent (the 3rd and 4th examples at least), but couldnt tell if it was intended from looking at the code

[orchid flower]

I wanted to get back to wayward and try these new changes but for some reason items are not displaying properly. Why?

[orchid flower]

resterting the game fixed the issue

[orchid flower]

How do I lower my curse and ferocity?

[sturdy tusk]

Curse only goes up except for your current combat strength (ie, reducing your attack/defense stats gives a slight reduction to it)

Lowering ferocity is by shifting your alignment towards

The more you do it, the more piety skill you get, and the more you'll be able to just set the difficulty as you want

[orchid flower]

which requires altar right?

[sturdy tusk]

Yep

[orchid flower]

darn

I can't craft it yet

[sturdy tusk]

Ohh yeah that's rough

You have to just rely on the once per day single rune invokes

[orchid flower]

how do I get more things to spawn so I would get more scrolls?

[sturdy tusk]

Any equippables you get that happen to have the invocation magical property can be of or which improves how much a single rune invoke can give you if you're wearing them, but Idk how much you could even have of those with rouseabout

No idea how to increase spawn rate

I do a lot of bigger systems work but don't really touch the core game stuff ever nor actually play the game

[orchid flower]

I obtained altar and I'm invoking good god every time I can, but is there a way to boost effectiveness of it?

[junior valve]

there are 2 factors to change in alignment when sacrificing:

Sacrifice: items placed into the altar
runes have specific values set for each god, good rune has highest effect when sacrificing to good god, lesser to neutral, no to evil god, vice versa for evil rune, neutral has highest effect for neutral, lesser for good and evil
for other items, it uses the worth of the item, with neutral getting only half the effect
to get most out of this, use runes and items with high worth to weight ratio, the only way to increase it further would be to refine items to decrease their weight or getting altar with the magic attribute that increases capacity

Invoke: scales linearly with your Piety skill and Invoking magic property on equipment

invoking/sacrificing to a Good or Evil god increases your Good or Evil alignment respectively, and if there is any left above cap it uses that to decrease the opposite alignment
invoking/sacrificing to Neutral god decreases alignment depending on whether you are currently in positive or negative net alignment

[orchid flower]

what is the deal with "there is only silence"?

[orchid flower]

lets say that I'm in negative allignment. what is the difference between sacrificing to good vs neutral gods?

[junior valve]

that should happen when you already invoked gods today, you can do that only once per day, and it is reset when night starts

when in negative alignment, you can sacrifice Evil and Neutral runes to decrease your Evil alignment, which in turn raises your net alignment

[orchid flower]

I think that above you wrote the opposite.

that sacrificing good rune to good god would give me highest result

and that if I go above max it would just decrease opposite allignment

which basically would mean that it is previous system (maligity & benignity) with added flair and easier way to influence it

[tidal island]

You can sacrifice any rune to Chaos to bring you closer to neutral

- Accepts any rune. Runes of other gods are half as effective.
runes - Accepted by any god. Gods other than Chaos only accept at half effectiveness.
/ runes - Accepted by themselves and Chaos. When sacrificed to the "opposite" god, they are destroyed in certain interesting ways, but don't grant any favor.

[orchid flower]

then why it seems that rune is more effective when sacrificed to ?

that red bar shifts slightly more towards neutral if I go with instead of despite it being rune

[tidal island]

what?

I don't know then

[orchid flower]

zoom on those images

[tidal island]

Maybe runes from only give half as much favor when sacrificed to

....that still doesn't make sense

shrug

[orchid flower]

that red bar thingy shifted more towards center when I try to sacrifice rune to

[junior valve]

when you are in positive net alignment after nightfall, the only way to increase net alignment is by increasing your Good alignment by invoking the Good god
Good runes are the best for this, Neutral runes have half effect than when used for Neutral god, Evil runes are useless
when you are in negative net alignment, the the only way to increase net alignment is by decreasing your Evil alignment by invoking the Neutral god
Neutral runes are best for this, Evil and Good have half effect than when sacrificed to their god

Invoke factor has double effect for Neutral god than for Good or Evil, so it is probably that, try removing the item

[orchid flower]

but if you zoom on my images you will see that it seems like its more effective to sacrifice good runes for neutral god

ah

[tidal island]

oh invoke factor has double effect for Neutral? Thank you

[orchid flower]

so system is "skewed" towards neutrality - that would explain it

so in my case it would be best to first use neutral runes for neutral god, and then when I reach neutrality I should pump good ones right?

[orchid flower]

does Runemaster milestone also impact sacrifices?

[junior valve]

it affects only the Invoke portion, which will be the majority of alignment change in mid and late game, Sacrifice portion is unaffected

if you mean Runekeeper, cant find Runemaster

[orchid flower]

sacrifice part is not affected by gear?

[junior valve]

no

[orchid flower]

then runekeeper is actually harmful in the long run

[junior valve]

indeed, like some other modifiers

[orchid flower]

and biggest offender of them all - crafter. This thing should really be rebalanced

my ferocity goes faster into the negatives than I can offset it by sacrificing neutral runes. What should I do?

my curse is at 21.8

I dont have any high value items to sacrifice

[junior valve]

difficult to tell, in my current run with rouseabout, abnormalizer, benevolent, and a number of other modifiers, I invoked a single Good rune per day from its item menu until I unlocked an altar, then just kept sacrificing all Good runes I found each day along with some other thrash, mostly (normal) feather from my chicken, and I didnt dip into negative except at the start before 10% Piety or when I missed some days, and even then Evil and Neutral runes were plenty to regain positive

[orchid flower]

can you sacrifice more than one item?

@errant loom I have weird bug. I should be on desert island surface, and it should be day

[junior valve]

in altar, as many as can fit in, 10 capacity by default I believe, before you have altar you can use Invoke action from a rune to sacrifice that one rune

[orchid flower]

adding to above bug - exiting to main menu does not seem to help

[orchid flower]

ferocity is separate for each island?

[junior valve]

Alignment is tied to a player, Ferocity is just descriptor, it depends on alignment, and each island type/biome has different thresholds for different values
example:
Arid:

            this.ferocity = {
                [u.WorldZ.Overworld]: {
                    [l.FerocityLevel.Low]: 32e3,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.Moderate]: 8e3,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.High]: 0,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.VeryHigh]: -16e3,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.Nightmare]: -32e3
                },
                [u.WorldZ.Cave]: {
                    [l.FerocityLevel.Low]: 64e3,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.Moderate]: 32e3,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.High]: 8e3,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.VeryHigh]: 0,
                    [l.FerocityLevel.Nightmare]: -32e3
                }
            },

Coastal:

            this.ferocity = {
                [u.WorldZ.Overworld]: {
                    [d.FerocityLevel.Low]: 8e3,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.Moderate]: -8e3,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.High]: -16e3,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.VeryHigh]: -32e3,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.Nightmare]: -64e3
                },
                [u.WorldZ.Cave]: {
                    [d.FerocityLevel.Low]: 64e3,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.Moderate]: 32e3,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.High]: 0,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.VeryHigh]: -16e3,
                    [d.FerocityLevel.Nightmare]: -32e3
                }
            },

[errant loom]

can you export the save and upload it here?

[orchid flower]

that wont help as restarting the game fixed the issue

I would have to do some sort of memory dump or something similar to help you with it

[orchid flower]

@errant loom I have that issue again. there is nothing weird in console or logs

at least I dont see any obvious error log

[errant loom]

hmm

[orchid flower]

I have this still running so if you want me to do some stuff to help you with it I can

[errant loom]

which operating system do you use?

and which GPU

[orchid flower]

Version    23H2
Installed on    ‎16/‎07/‎2024
OS build    22631.3880
Experience    Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.22700.1020.0

Processor    AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 8-Core Processor                3.80 GHz
Installed RAM    32.0 GB
Device ID    EF5E4DFD-1003-4592-B9C2-157CB41C45DF
Product ID    00328-90000-00000-AAOEM
System type    64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch    No pen or touch input is available for this display

about GPU - AMD Radeon RX 6700 xT

[errant loom]

thanks, we are going to be releasing a new dev branch soon with an updated back-end, so we'll see if that fixes it

[orchid flower]

AMD Adrenalin Edition version 24.6.1

[orchid flower]

In real time mode you almost can't drag item out of the backpack. It seems like dragging of item that is in the backpack is canceled every turn.

[orchid flower]

I'm trying to create zoom mod by copy-pasting relevant code from inspect mod, and It seems that
import { Bound } from "@wayward/game/utilities/Decorators";
no longer works or even exists. how do I make it work?

[sturdy tusk]

I think it's "@wayward/utilities/Decorators";

[orchid flower]

it turned out that it works just fine without it

[sturdy tusk]

yeah it's specifically for cases where you need to store a reference to a method and need to use this inside the method

if that wasn't the case it wouldn't be necessary

[orchid flower]

is there easier way to launch developer tools console than going to options every time?

[sturdy tusk]

f10

must have developer mode enabled

couple other developer bindings that might be useful: f5 restarts the game, ctrl + f5 restarts and loads the latest save

[orchid flower]

this happens when I mouse over Thaumaturgic milestone in milestones menu @errant loom

[orchid flower]

@errant loom when tamed animal is put into cage heart stays

it should disappear

[sturdy tusk]

amazing

[orchid flower]

what is?

[errant loom]

will check on both

[sturdy tusk]

i just thought the heart staying there was funny so i said amazing

idk

[orchid flower]

I thought about undertale when I saw this

[orchid flower]

what will happen to the curse if I level skill that is associated with to the same % as tactics? will the offset each other resulting in 0 impact from skill?

[sturdy tusk]

no, all skills could theoretically increase curse

it's just that some (mostly the combat ones, and ones that give you the ability to make better gear easier) are weighted as "higher impact"

[orchid flower]

then what will happen if I have multiple skills at the same percentage? it seems like its only picking one, in that case which one will be picked?

[sturdy tusk]

oh i lied, it looks like only skills that can drop runes are checked

(and piety)

so the calculation for this is kinda complicated

[orchid flower]

well, so basically there is no way to screw myself less, it can only be worse

[sturdy tusk]

yeah

If you're curious, this is the way it gets the highest impact skill and the curse value it gives, I don't quite remember if you're one of our players that knows code or not

function getSkillValue(human: Human): { value: number; skill: SkillType } {
    let highest = 0;
    let highestSkill = SkillType.None;
    for (const skillType of Enums.values(SkillType)) {
        const runeChance = skillDescriptions[skillType]?.runeChance;
        if (runeChance?.[0] !== Deity.Evil && (!runeChance || skillType !== SkillType.Piety)) {
            continue; // only care about evil skills and piety
        }

        const skillOptions = human.getGameOptions().skills;
        let skillValue = Math.max(0, human.skill.get(skillType) - Math2.average(skillOptions.initialValue.minimum, skillOptions.initialValue.maximum));
        if (skillValue < 100) {
            // make skill % go slow at first
            skillValue = ((skillValue / 100) ** 1.8) * 100;
        }

        const [, chance] = runeChance;
        const value = (skillValue * chance) / (CURSE_SKILL_MAX * chance);
        if (value > highest) {
            highest = value;
            highestSkill = skillType;
        }
    }

    return { value: highest, skill: highestSkill };
}

it's basically just going through all the skills in order of when they were introduced to the game, and for each calculating a value for it which is based on its chance to drop a rune (higher rune chance = higher impact)

And then it only actually takes into account the single skill that is currently the highest

So in the case of two skills that produce an identical impact value, it just defaults to whichever skill was introduced first

[orchid flower]

which it means that there is no actual way to unscrew myself. Tactics is one of the first skills that were introduced and there is no way to not get it to 100%

[sturdy tusk]

pretty much yeah

[orchid flower]

I wonder how it would work if piety was the highest

but curse would probably still push me into negative allignment

[sturdy tusk]

Piety is weighted 4x higher than Tactics

Because the higher it is the more it allows reducing the difficulty

That difficulty system is really not compatible with rouseabout, sorry

It'll be gone soon at least

[orchid flower]

with what will you replace it?

[sturdy tusk]

Creature zones

#wayward message

Curse will still exist but it'll be used for fun sometimes-good-sometimes-neutral-sometimes-bad random events at night that you can sleep through if you want

[orchid flower]

so altars, runes and gods will disappear?

along with piety

[sturdy tusk]

No, all of that will still exist and be repurposed for something different too

Alignment will be gone though

I explained it in that link above

[orchid flower]

yea

[sturdy tusk]

Runes are changing to once-daily special ability things and altars are used to make them higher quality

[orchid flower]

then how will Runekeeper milestone change?

[sturdy tusk]

The unlock requirements or the modifier?

[orchid flower]

the effect for it

[sturdy tusk]

[Milestone.Runekeeper]: [
    "Runekeeper",
    "Discover the domains of the deities.",
    "Triple all rune chances. Upon receiving a rune, additional runes of that type cannot drop until a rune of another type is received.",
],

[orchid flower]

so it will even out chances for all runes

[sturdy tusk]

Yeah rune drops have been rebalanced along with this to even them out

[orchid flower]

or rather make it easier to aquire different ones

but it will also make it harder to get specific ones

[sturdy tusk]

I think most likely players will have a farming method where they do one activity, then switch to another that they can do in the same area, and back and forth like that

[orchid flower]

but hmmm... maybe with highest grade runes of each type and some treasures we could alter milestones

additionally slightly cheaper version - get specific milestone for few days

[sturdy tusk]

Someday we'll add a system for changing milestones, yeah

Will be deity related

Not in this update though

Too much UI work required

[orchid flower]

about UI - I will need to relearn how to restyle things in wayward to revive one of my UI mods

[sturdy tusk]

That's done with custom CSS, Debug Tools has an example of it. stylesheets property of mod.json

[worldly pine]

Hey. On casual. Respawning after death, is it a dead cert that a backpack will disappear? Seems all my stuff was ok the ground where I died except a backpack and its contents

Think this has happened a few times now, but I haven’t played casual for a while

Also, any quick source of water in the swamps? Don’t seem to have the filter recipe yet, and a dripstone will take too long!

[orchid flower]

I dont think there is any other source there

[worldly pine]

Then the race is on!

[mystic moat]

...Did you die to a hobgoblin or something? I'm pretty sure nothing should disappear on death.

[mystic moat]

Moar dripstone.

...Actually, is swamp water good for watering plants with? If so, you could (CAREFULLY, don't stack 3 or more water on the tile, wait for it to vanish) repeatedly water a apple seed to get apples

this is the kind of move that isn't really super plausible in most situations, as you need non-salinated water to grow plants with, and the sheer amount you'd have to burn to get apples out of a seed is ridiculous compared to just drinking it. But SWAMP water...

...oh, you could also craft a full on still instead of relying on dripstone, obv

[orchid flower]

I have this idea for a mod - chest like doodad that allows only one item inside. If that item has glowing then doodad itself would emit light. If item inside is a wisp in the bottle then depending on the wisp type and glass bottle quality way stronger light could be generated.
What do you think? How do I make a doodad emit light depending on the item inside?

[orchid flower]

I thought about 2 light power for normal wisp and 4 for an aberrant one

And then on top of that 0 for normal glass bottle and +1 per quality tier

[tidal island]

are you an honest man?

[orchid flower]

me? why?

[orchid flower]

something like this is my goal, just instead of flame I would like to have something that actually glows by magical power

I think this would fit game perfectly

[sturdy tusk]

I will note that wisps in bottles already have a planned use that will make them equippable

Not providing a glow though

[orchid flower]

as a sort of mid/end game light source

hmmmm

[sturdy tusk]

(While you have it equipped you'll be able to see little sparkles around you, highlighting the quality of tiles and doodads)

(Basically an official version of the Quality Tile Colours mod)

[orchid flower]

OOOO

I WANT THAT

[sturdy tusk]

If I have time it'll end up in one of the post-Runekeeper minor updates

It was initially planned for Runekeeper but I pushed it back

[orchid flower]

Noooooooooooooo............

[sturdy tusk]

https://trello.com/c/MBzH8y5S/12712-added-a-new-divination-skill-and-four-associated-actions-dowse-cast-bones-osteomancy-cast-earth-geomancy-and-reveal-spectromancy (note that this card was made before the wisp in bottle idea for spectromancy)

Trello

Added a new Divination skill and four associated actions — Dowse, C...

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[orchid flower]

how hard would it be to update that mod to dev branch?

[sturdy tusk]

Quality Tile Colours?

[orchid flower]

yes

[sturdy tusk]

Should be pretty easy

[orchid flower]

I will probably attempt that

[sturdy tusk]

I think it should just be updating imports

Don't believe it depends on anything that was changed

[orchid flower]

but back to original question - I will ditch wisps providing light (even though they should as they naturally glow).

but still, how do I make doodad glow based on item inside?

ah, for that wisp in bottle - make it so that bottle quality affects range

[sturdy tusk]

It looks like light level emitted by things on a tile is pretty hardcoded right now

Sorry was just verifying how it works

Some of the light level stuff is written in cpp

So you would have to inject into Island.calculateTileLightLevel and check if the tile contains a doodad of your type, then return the light level your doodad currently gives

Whenever you've detected that the light level of your doodad should change you would have to use doodad.updateView(RenderSource.Mod, true)

That's what would trigger the light source/light level maps being recalculated for the tile your doodad is on

[orchid flower]

that sounds way more complicated than I was prepared for, at least with my current typescript knowledge

[sturdy tusk]

https://github.com/WaywardGame/debugtools/blob/ac67ba369452352ec833c3c9f5246454056c3049/src/DebugTools.ts#L781-L787 There actually happens to be an example of injecting into Island.calculateTileLightLevel here

In this case it's for something else, in your case you'd just be running your own code (in InjectionPosition.Post) to add to the default return value

[orchid flower]

so we get tile. I would have to check if that tile contains my doodad and then if my doodad has item that has Glowing right?

[sturdy tusk]

yep

[orchid flower]

by the way, do you think it fits into the game?

[sturdy tusk]

Yeah I think so?

It's more a game content thing than a system so it would be a Drathy thing if something like that ever gets added to the base game

[orchid flower]

would be cool if you pulled it into the game when I create it

😎

[sturdy tusk]

Mods work a lot differently than base game content

It would take about equivalent time to incorporate a mod as just implementing something from scratch

Historically we have always done things from scratch

[orchid flower]

darn, I thought that I could speed this up

something like a "community contribution" sort of thing

Will there ever be official way of zooming even further to view whole map?

[sturdy tusk]

No, I don't think so

I think it would already be in the base game instead of debug tools otherwise

Drathy probably had a reason to not want it in the base game

[orchid flower]

when what about... island map? you have to walk with it and inkstick to map your island, slowly filling it, and then you could zoom in on it to view more details?

once tile is mapped it can't be altered

[sturdy tusk]

That's basically just our current DrawnMap thing but with a bigger size, but the reason the size is capped is for performance because it's using a slower rendering method

[sturdy tusk]

At this point, the impending changes for dev branch are basically a second major update lmfao. Anyone who's played on the Runekeeper dev branch up till now are just the only people who will ever see the first one

[orchid flower]

Oh, I just thought about a way to improve skills milestones

Talented etc are not used by players because they are actually detrimental to players in the long run

we could actually flip that

Make then into Pitcher/Trapsetter basically

instead of granting flat bonus at start let us overlevel skills

for example Talented could increase max skills % by 10% but also reduce skill gain by 10%

so you can reach 110% in skill but you only gain 0.9% per skill increase

super early game will not be heavily impacted ad skill gains are frequent, mid game should still be ok, late game reaching max skill % will be brutal, but rewards will be very enticing

what do you think?

[sturdy tusk]

I think it might be more fun if there was a bit more weighting to earlygame skill levelling so that gets harder, and try to leave lategame skill levelling close to how it is now

Make it so 0-10 feels like 30-45, 10-20 feels like 45-60, something like that

[orchid flower]

will there be anything that will let us reroll relics etc? I seem to get lots of relics that are mostly pointless

I'm not sure if I should just use them as normal ingredient or will they have different use later on

[sturdy tusk]

There’s a few magic items that allow changing magical properties

Already in the game

I can never remember any of their names

[orchid flower]

that wont help if relic is piece of meat or spider silk

[sturdy tusk]

I’m not sure what you mean by rerolling then

[orchid flower]

rerolling was just a term I threw. Some other games have mechanics that allow player to sacrifice few items of the same quality to get random item with same quality

that wont fit here though

[sturdy tusk]

Ahhhhh

Yeah I don’t think we’d do that

[orchid flower]

I would just like to have special use for relics

[sturdy tusk]

Even if it was very restricted I think it would be a bit odd

[orchid flower]

maybe something with gods

[sturdy tusk]

You can pull magical properties out of them and put them on other stuff

[orchid flower]

yea, but they are super random so its usually better to piece them together rather than work with randomness of generated item

ah, what about adding crafting recipe for moldy scroll that required completed treasure map?

it would be interesting source of those

[sturdy tusk]

Up to Drathy

[orchid flower]

@errant loom I have bug report as well as a question.
What about recipe for moldy scroll that requires completed treasure map?

As for bug report - check adjacent bonuses. When seen from skills it shows better bookshelf as +(1)% instead of 11.6%

[errant loom]

you can zoom out to a 100% pixel scale, anything further and you get subpixels which looks really bad

we would need to make a different zoom style past that point

[worldly pine]

Died to starvation. No lit torch. Only animals in the vicinity were some slimes, I think.

[worldly pine]

I’ve actually never made the still.

[worldly pine]

Love this!

Is there any way, or any plans for a way, to make enchantments and magical properties more intentional? As in, choosing an enchantment?

[orchid flower]

we already have this

there is an item that lets you move enchant from one item to another

[worldly pine]

Ah, cool. It’s mad reading through this Discord and finding out how much I have yet to discover!

[orchid flower]

are you relatively new to the game or someone who played in the past but forgot?

[worldly pine]

In fact, truth be told, I’d have probably got bored and moved on some time ago, thinking I’d found all there was to be found. I wonder if that happens to players a lot?

[worldly pine]

Ummm. A bit of both. Played a while ago and found it really hard. Come back to it recently and begun to engage more with the community, etc.

[orchid flower]

tbh, if you speedrun the game then its not really hard or long

go to swamp to get best cordage, to ice cap for best tree, to desert for joshua and coconuts and you are set

you start the game WAY faster

get cage, go to volcano island, catch fire elemental and you have eternal flame

[worldly pine]

Haha.

Wait, do you actually need these things for end game? Coconuts, for example? I use them to survive when at the desert. Are they needed for something?

[orchid flower]

they are good long distance travel food due to how long it takes for them to spoil

papayas from volcano island are best stamina food

sugar cane stalks are also good for that

[void whale]

Eventually I plan to mod in some actual uses for sugar and wheat past just hardtack

We have wheat, eggs, milk, and sugar, it's always such a shame when I can't bake a cake

[void whale]

Also, wait, what cordage is the best? (And what trees?)

[orchid flower]

something pine

white pine or something

they on average give one more log

"grass" on swamp island is cordage 4

[void whale]

Oooh

[worldly pine]

Gotcha. Great to know. I (stupidly) never thought of bringing coconuts back with me.

Do all plants grow anywhere (from seeds) not restricted to their biomes of origin?

[worldly pine]

Yeah. I’m really hopeful for tiered recipes. Complex, multi-ingredient dishes, perhaps even with various buffs?

[orchid flower]

I would love "Well Rested" from skyrim to be in here

something like The Spice of Life could be good here too

but maybe from its Carrot Edition

which encourages diet variety

[orchid flower]

plants will grow anywhere as long as ground tile is appropriate

cacti wont grow on dirt etc

[void whale]

Honestly, I might just see about more long-lasting recipes. Right now it's just pemmican and hardtack that don't spoil, I'd love to have a few more ways to handle that. Ooh... Actually, salt might be a fantastic addition...

[worldly pine]

The new newsletter (congrats) has reminded me to mention that the heart above tamed animals is unreliable for me. Often there is no heart, either it doesn’t appear when a new animal is tamed or it disappears when I go away and come back (animal is still tamed).

Love tile targeting!

Is there scope to travel multiple islands once you’ve unlocked them? I’ve gone four or five islands away from home. I now have a sailboat, a sextant and a telescope. But coming home is a tedious process…

[junior valve]

Max distance that can be travelled in one trip depends only on Seafaring skill, and presence of a lit Lighthouse (not sure if current or target island)
the value is 3 x Seafaring fraction (100% = 1, 50% o 0.5, etc) and x 1.5 if a lit Lighthouse is present
So without lighthouse, you will need 47.2% seafaring to travel 1 diagonally, or 66.7% to travel 2 islands straight

[worldly pine]

Ahh, great to know! Thanks

[junior valve]

seems that the Lit Lighthouse needs to be on the current island

[orchid flower]

@sturdy tusk I'm not sure if its bug or not but swapping armor with armor stand removes its protection.

[orchid flower]

In this new zone system will we be able to eventually make zone inhabited by specific enemies?

chiri - I remember you saying that you will be reworking item sorting. I think I will have few requests, because there are some improvements to be done here

[orchid flower]

please add a way to disable this

and also please allow auto use actions on germinating plants

both should be behind gameplay settings option

[orchid flower]

For modding purposes - is there a way to determine if item was refined and its max durability is in generated range?

[sturdy tusk]

I don't think so

[orchid flower]

Basically if player did anything to the item or is it brand new unused

[sturdy tusk]

You could track it yourself

[orchid flower]

I'm thinking about logic behind something like "Black Hole Unit" that would store infinite number of same items

I guess here it should be called Void Storage

[sturdy tusk]

How hard would it be to make?

[orchid flower]

first of all - I would entirely bypass different bits of data on items and store items only as numbers. To make that possible I would have to allow players to only store brand new items

it would also have to be limited to base materials

[sturdy tusk]

I think you would still want to keep track of quality

[orchid flower]

ah yes

[sturdy tusk]

And you would probably also want it to just yeet any magical properties

I think the rest of the stats would probably be fine to get randomised on pulling an item out

[orchid flower]

magic properties are tricky

[sturdy tusk]

Yeah hence why I'd say items just always come out with none

[orchid flower]

I guess I could strip them....

but on the other hand I dont want to strip them... especially aptitude

I have in mind UI that would deal with all the rarities, but magical properties are a problem

on the other hand if someone gets relic tree then amount of combinations makes it almost impossible

[sturdy tusk]

I have a weird concept for you. Ignoring durability/decay for now, what if you could put as many of any quality of a single item type as you want. Each one you put in increments a counter for the total number of items inside, the total number of items of each quality, and the total number of magical properties of each type. And then when you pull an item back out, it chooses a random quality using [weight, quality] tuples in seededRandom.weightedChoice, and if the new item is created with magical properties, it gets the number of magical properties, removes them, and then adds the same number of magical properties by doing weightedChoice on the total number of properties inside

It would mean that the worst players could do for balance is:

1. reroll items for stats like durability, which is probably not useful enough to matter
2. use it to shuffle around magical properties on items of one type, but players would also be getting value rerolling from that and it would be very random so I don't think it would be too bad?

[orchid flower]

for crafting purposes relic is exactly the same as exceptional right?

[sturdy tusk]

no idea

[junior valve]

should be, as long as you didnt upgrade its aptitude property beyond x4

[orchid flower]

which is by default impossible right?

[junior valve]

some/most magical properties for Relic quality have their max value doubled, so for them Aptitude can reach max 8x, while other rarities are capped at x4

[orchid flower]

Would it be fine if I ditched adjacent crafting?

[junior valve]

for storing magical attributes, you could try something like what is used by Magical Parchment for storing the attributes and values, or maybe internally create Parchments and use them directly to store the properties

[orchid flower]

if yes then instead if making into chest-like container it could have entirely custom UI

when you put item in I store 2 separate bits of data - increment count of items in specific quality and add its magical properties to the list of available magical properties for that quality

and then player selects what he wants using 2 dropdowns or something similar

when selected new item slot appears that has what he wanted and it refills every time item is picked up

still, that idea will block any damaged items or those that have decay

only thing I'm worried about is refining item and then putting it into storage to reroll its stats so it could be refined again

damaged items are easy to figure out but I have no idea what to do with refined ones

[junior valve]

If you dont store weight of items, I dont think there will be any point in differentiating refined items, unless you mean to prevent people from refining items to max, storing+taking out, then refining again to train skill

Also if you store crafted items without recording materials used to craft them, upon recreating them they will be "made" with default items, eg. WovenFabric is default for Fabric group and StrippedBark for Cordage, so shirt made with cotton Fabric and Spider Silk would turn into one "made" with WovenFabric and StrippedBark, changing its possible weight range at the very least

[orchid flower]

Nah, I thought about only allowing players to store base things so fabric is out of question

I guess I could allow it but then I would only allow items that are made with the same base materials

But then again..... Crafted items can be disassembled

chiri how would game react if I tried to disassemble exceptional fabric that is missing it's components?

[junior valve]

craftable items that are generated, like loot from monsters, dont have any components stored
instead, it is assumed they use default ones, and when they are disassembled it generates new items with quality based on the quality of source item and your skill level

[orchid flower]

thats great

then I guess I would block all items that have components

this solves a lot of headache

[junior valve]

or I seem to have made a mistake, what I said applies to dismantling, disassemble creates and stores components on item creation all the way down to basic materials, based on the quality of created item, stored in disassembly variable
Crafted items should have crafterIdentifier variable, which should have no value for non-crafted items

[orchid flower]

do you think I should allow storing of crafted items?

or to be more precise non-base materials like cloth etc?

[orchid flower]

All I did were mobs that use containers. How do i create something so custom?

[orchid flower]

clay jug doesn't show its durability bar

[mystic heron]

I seem to have hidden my stats bar by clicking on the button on the right click Menu. I did not seem to find a way to Show the Stats again

How do I show my stats again? Am I screwed?

[errant loom]

click one of the [+] buttons in each corner

[mystic heron]

Thank you folks

Apparently it is not obvious enough.

[orchid flower]

maybe something could be added here

[junior valve]

My gear is progressing well, just need to get Relic Gloves and Belt, build them with correct set of magical attributes, then finish upgrading all

[sturdy tusk]

Nightlies will be starting back up today!

Definitely later than we had initially planned but stuff is also much more polished than earlier in the month, so.

For the rest of the month I’m intending to improve item stack UX, fix various bugs and inconsistencies with item ui in general, add a couple requested bindings, and rework a technical modding thing that will allow some cool stuff long term

If anyone wouldn’t mind, before I do a deployment, sending me some current dev branch save files would be helpful so I can make sure the game upgrades them correctly

I ask specifically because I’ve reworked some save upgrading tech and I want to make sure nobody’s save gets bricked

Backing up saves on first load would be a good idea as well btw

[junior valve]

my current save is too big to upload (40MB), but here is my old one, that was loaded and saved a few weeks ago

[sturdy tusk]

Runekeeper Dev Branch Megathread

[tidal island]

YOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[tidal island]

yes!

[sturdy tusk]

Thanks!! Will look at these when I'm done with what I'm currently working on

[tidal island]

:)

yay

[sturdy tusk]

I think we might deploy a bit after Drathy's stream? Assuming he streams today. I would've deployed a bit ago but I've been on a bugfixing frenzy

[tidal island]

nice

[tidal island]

yoooo it's a whatever this thing is

I'm so pogged rn you have no idea

Is {Deity:}Fanaticism intended?

[sturdy tusk]

whaat when did that break

[tidal island]

:)

here ya go! Maybe it's an issue with save upgrading?

Do you want me to play on a fresh save?

[sturdy tusk]

nah it's a text rendering bug

dw about it

[tidal island]

oh no I mean is it more useful to you for me to test on a fresh save or for me to test on a stale save?

[sturdy tusk]

uhhh. i dunno! both? i'm guessing most people are going to be playing existing saves. the most useful to me would be completely fresh, ie all data cleared, because that means you have to go through the complete discovery process (the unlock all milestones button is okay, even though discoveries are tracked through milestones, they ignore milestone completion state)

but i do not blame you if you don't want to do that

[tidal island]

ah ok can I re-lock my milestones then?

[sturdy tusk]

what do you mean?

[tidal island]

hmmm

never mind, I think I just didn't understand what you had said

So what do altars do now?

[sturdy tusk]

the sacrifice action!

they can be used as much as you want now

but the sacrifice action does something different now

[tidal island]

hmm

what is the sacrifice action on? valuable items?

[sturdy tusk]

||it's for upgrading the quality of runes, you basically gamble your runes and hope you roll high enough values that it gives you higher qualities||

[tidal island]

ooh thank you

[orchid flower]

what does altar do now?

[sturdy tusk]

see above lol

[tidal island]

ahhh I see

okay so what I'm having trouble with is that now it matters where you right click lol

[sturdy tusk]

it's definitely much different than how it used to be

I had intended to make q for actions do the tile in front of you but looks like i forgot