#Should CM Cape just be cumulative Cox KC?

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

digital hazel
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Interested on peoples views on this. To align with the other raids capes, and also address the fact that 2k cm is a gargantuan grind. Would people be for or against changing the CM Capes to be total cox kc instead of just CM kc?

slow kelp
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To mirror TOB and TOA, I would be a HUGE fan of having the CM cape changed to the COX cape.

abstract reef
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I'm personally not a fan. I think 2k cm cape should remain a difficult feat. If jagex would ever poll it, I'd vote no.
But I'm quite confident it would pass a poll regardless

digital hazel
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I guess toa and tob capes are also the same amount, but it’s crazy how you can do 2k reg cox and finish 90% of the log and not even have dented the cape grind.

abstract reef
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Thats why if you care at all about any form of log completionism. You should do do CM’s as soon as possible to build up kc

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Would be like doing entry mode TOA and saying that 2k cape is not realistic

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Then again cm cape is more of a timeline issue, where when they released cox back in the day, cm’s didnt exist and nor did 2k capes.
It was added a bit later all together.
Then with tob, hmt did not exist and jagex kept the need of adding a 2k cape

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So if anything, the argument should be to make tob and toa only count 2k cape for hmt/expert kc. But holy would people go crazy for that kekw

digital hazel
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Most other coll log stuff you’ll get passively just picking away at the game, you won’t get like, a major time waste to the same extent that is doing reg cox

short bobcat
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CM EHB rate is already 2.4 as opposed to tob and toa expert rates being 3 per hour. I don't think it's a big issue keeping the capes to CMs only, especially with future gear upgrades making stuff faster anyway

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I have no desire to go for 2k capes and only have 1 CM KC so take it with a grain of salt. Only problem is it being inconsistent with other raids

abstract reef
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I think a main issue with CM is a lot of people aren’t really “efficient” with them. So the raids tend to be very long.
There was a group of 5 absolute gamers that did a 30 hour sesh of CM’s and was averaging 23 minute completions

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Also team finding is quite hard for CM

digital hazel
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Like, even with max the average 5 man team will not be breaking 30 minutes, then remove max and it drops off very fast

outer citrus
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One of the other problems is that the main reason to do cms is the cm capes. Reg cox is over twice as fast while hmt is only slightly faster

digital hazel
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Also that

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Expert toas and hmt are better gp/hr than their reg variants, cm is not

fallen hull
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Id rather CM cape stay as is. Its prestigious, and changing it would be solely to cater to clog. What is the point of clog if the actual hard slots are just made way easier?

I understand meme slots like jar of darkness and baguette and possibly evil chicken, but for a very obtainable clog slot that you can actively work toward, it shouldn't be made easy for the sake of it.

Also for the argument of "consistency" the way CM cape is how it is is because of the timeline. Cm cape out right before Tob, before hmt was even considered.

CMs are also way more intricate than normies when done max eff. sub 14 normals are basically shoot boss, while sub 23 trio cms/sub 20 5s cms is actually in-depth procedures and communication between the team.

Imo, the cm cape should remain prestigious rather than made a joke for the sake of saving cloggers 700 hours

outer citrus
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It does feel bad that normal cox is a straight up waste of time from a cloggers perspective but no way around it

fallen hull
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There is loads of content that is straight up a waste of time for cloggers, but the only reason CM cape gets brought up is because its a super long clog compared to others

violet violet
abstract reef
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HMT is a big exception

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its better gp/h in theory. But in practice its not

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deaths way too common due to very punishing mechanics that can KO yourself or your team mate if you make a mistake

hoary socket
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To be honest, It 100% should be changed

CM is not fun & realistally not better gp/hr or loot. Changing it to include regular kc changes it from approx 700hr cape to a 500hr cape. Both of these are still large and impressive grinds

However, making it normal KC allows me to just enjoy CoX and send it gradually over time as a natural progression. I literally never want to do CoX at current, because i havent got a dedicated CM team and everything else feels like wasted time

TOA though? I always down, want to send sweaty high invo, great! Want to send chill 150 for a low ironman or new player - no worries! all counts toward my cape. TOB? lets go!
a change to CoX would genuinley just make it a more enjoyable grind, and only change the 3 raid capes from a 1700hr grind to 1500hr (or approx an 11% time save)

There are less than 75 people with 2000cm and only just over 300 with 1000cm, Anyone who thinks this shouldnt be changed are the same people who think we shouldnt tax the rich, cause they'll be a billonaire one day

abstract reef
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No way you compare this to taxing the rich

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I give up

digital hazel
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I’d say I agreed with everything until the last sentence

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(I agree with taxing the rich just not in this scenario)

hoary socket
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Haha, I guess I got a bit carried away there,
I more meant, It is frustrating for people to gate keep achievements, that they themselves have not even achieved
i.e. dont devalue 'X" because when i get it, my account will be super awesome and better than others (which is how people treat being rich IRL)
Thought process made sense to me, but definitely a bit over the top

digital hazel
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Hahaha I get the train of thought

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And I agree that the fact that there’s an item in the game that’s been out for like, 5 years and only 75 people have it, and it’s not a skill based item, is pretty indicative of not a great design

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Like if the cape was only awarded to people who got a sub 30 solo or something, even if only 75 people had it at least it’s skill based, but yea, to me the capes should be obtained passively while doing the content but that’s evidently not the case for cm cause no one does 2k for fun

hoary socket
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Yeah I agree

fallen hull
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I wonder how many people with sub 20 5s or sub 22 3s would agree CM is not fun and realistically not better gp/hr or loot lol

violet violet
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This sounds like a “I don’t like it so the devs should cater to me” argument. If you don’t think it’s fun, don’t grind for the capes. This one is a purely cosmetic log slot and shouldn’t be changed just because a lot more people got into clogging and now want things to be easier. Also everyone saying it’s not better gp/hr are parroting some Reddit post or something. Cuz the way people are calcing that is by doing scaled raids with prep alts. If you’re doing chill normals than cms are better purps and gp/hr. You need to do sweatier normals to be “better” than cms. If the argument is just based on consistency with the other raids capes I can buy it, but complaints on the lack of fun or gp are just based on self interest

abstract reef
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Cms is better gp/h then normals

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You literally gain 5k pts per player per raid bonus if you make time

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But tbh, i dont see a point arguying. Its going to get devalued eventually anyways

violet violet
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I think people seriously read it on Reddit one time without remembering why normals can be faster and just repeat it. 5 man fast cms is a lot of points per hour.

abstract reef
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Thing is, a vast MAJORITY of players are incapable of doing efficient cms

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So they think 45 min trio cms is the norm

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Cms is extremely procedural

violet violet
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It’s only getting devalued if the log community wants it to. I think it was ash who said they have considered changing the cape but do not want to adversely affect people who have done or are close to 2k cms

abstract reef
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If a player sees a poll for devaluation, they vote yes

violet violet
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So true, but that’s why they haven’t polled it, because they know it’d pass

abstract reef
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I really hope it never changes

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Were already on a slippery slope of devaluating everything

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And i fear like its going to keep setting a precedent

violet violet
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Same. At least for me it’s one thing if there’s an actual effect on the game, but these capes are just cosmetics

fallen hull
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and even the people complaining about cm cape being too long wont get the regular cox kc anyways tbh

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some will obvisouly, but if 40k people vote yes, only like 1k will actively go for the 2k cox kc

abstract reef
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I mean, all polls are like that salii kekw

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But i well

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Maybe im the “cringe HLC Nerd”

violet violet
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You are

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So are a lot of us with high log slots

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Accept the cringe

digital hazel
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I think a healthier game is more important than maintaining certain arbitrary values. That’s not necessarily targeted at the cm cape but I hate the idea that we shouldn’t improve aspects of the game because it devalues some peoples achievements

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It’s almost the same argument as tuition support lol, “I had to pay for my tuition and it sucked so you should too!” Instead of “I had to pay for my tuition and it sucked therefore you shouldn’t have to because the goal of a society is to make life better for future people”

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If I did 99 agility at werewolf and then sepulchre comes out that’s super fun content but is 30% faster to 99, and I complain that it shouldn’t be faster because I had to suffer for max eff at something shitty, I’m not a good person

violet violet
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I feel like your comparison is lacking. Changing the cape doesn’t improve the game in any way. Quite simply it’s cosmetic only and people aren’t going to like doing2k normal cox either

fallen hull
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It's hard to say "healthier game" because if you did this, you would kill CMs long term. look at hmt, giga aids to find teams compared to reg tobs.

Also, your example implies theres no down side to changing CM cape req. One example is killing CMs outside dust+3 kits

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and the next step cloggers would ask: Make dust a skill based unlock like toa

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then the same would go to hmt

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then we have 2/3 raids with dead hard mode variants

violet violet
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Although I’ll say that hmt is on the way extreme though. It’s aids to find teams cuz even good teams wipe and that feels bad. Even mediocre teams never miss time in cms

fallen hull
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true, there are more issues with hmt vs reg tobs than cms vs reg cox so that was a mischaracterization from me mb

digital hazel
digital hazel
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More like 20 but you get the point lol

violet violet
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Well that feels like an exaggeration too. Not sure you can misclick once and wipe the team. I guess if everyone camps low and you melee them

hoary socket
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It's definately healthier for the game for them to count. It encourages high level players to send learner CoX raids/ raid with newer players or new HCIM/ GIM accounts. And changing a 700hr grind to 500, is really not changing this to ez scape

violet violet
violet violet
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People still send learners all the time for noobs if they’re friends or clan mates. Cape doesn’t prevent them from doing so

hoary socket
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indeed, but its cerainly healthier for the game if high levels can get progress toward cape while sending learning CoX

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and CM's are still going to be run for Dust and Kits

violet violet
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I think you’ll find the amount of players currently refusing to send learner cox because they will only ever do cms is astoundingly low. Most hlc players will help people learn

digital hazel
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I personally view the capes as good passive little rewards for hitting milestones and not high prestige things. Like, for the average person it’s just cool to get a little commemoration of your 100th kc and stuff at raids. Which is why I view cox plus cm as being nice in that most of the Actual sense of accomplishment that the capes give are at the 100 and 500 capes, and most people will hardly ever do 500 cm. It’s not just about the 2k cape it’s about all capes

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I see a lot of my early endgame friends feeling rewarded by getting their 100 tob kc cape, but the reality is not a single early endgame person is sending 100 cm’s, you’re already pretty late endgame by that time

hoary socket
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You need to stop thinking about it as 1 or 2 learning CoX - how many high level players are sending CoX all day with newbie friends vs ToB or ToA all day?

violet violet
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High level players are not sending any of the 3 raids with newbie friends unless they specifically are making a choice to help them or just enjoy their company

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Should be no different than people sending any content with a friend “for fun”

hoary socket
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ToA and ToB are certainly sent a lot more with new players and early account, because people chip away at the capes

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hence why a cape change would certainly be healthy for the game

digital hazel
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Like, I get it, the purpose of cosmetics should be about showing accomplishments, but it shouldn’t necessarily be about only the hardest and longest accomplishments. Getting to 100 tob or toa kc as a mid endgame player feels good, and the capes a good symbol of it. Getting to 100 cox is the same but doesn’t have the cape, 100 cm is already a late endgame goal for most people

violet violet
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Ask around here, people are not sending 150s unless they have a specific person they’re doing it for. Everyone does 400+. So with that in mind, they’d be sending cox to help that specific person too.

digital hazel
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My biggest view is that capes should be a passive thing and cm is the only example where it is an active thing

hoary socket
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exactly

digital hazel
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There are tons of people with 2k tob and toa kc who were not grinding for capes they just got it along the way, there isn’t a single 2k cm person who got it passively

hoary socket
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and likely they did not enjoy doing it

violet violet
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They’re all “active” by the time you get to the last couple. What do you mean not getting it passively. I know someone with 3k cms and they just like the content

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Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s people suffering to do them

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And that’s my point, you’re putting a subjective opinion out there as if it’s objec to very good for the game

digital hazel
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Fair

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Can’t argue that

hoary socket
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Im sorry, but i cannot get behind your idea that we should keep an extra 200 hours and also discourage new and skilled players playing together

digital hazel
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I am definitely being subjective cause I don’t know a single person who enjoyed cm after getting dust and kits besides for the speedruns

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But I know people still excited at the 6k tob mark to go send it hahaha

violet violet
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I think we can agree that many people don’t like it, but I’m just not convinced it’s “objectively healthy” for the game to change it. And I don’t agree on principle to change something for the sake of making it easier

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But yeah a lot of people really like tob

digital hazel
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I’m not necessarily arguing for the sake of “it’s hard and therefore should be easier”

hoary socket
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Agreed, for me its about the capes being an enjoyable natural progession that encourages skilled players to hang around long after the rest of the log is done & these skilled players doing content with players learnring it

violet violet
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I think you’re not getting that the people who would be grinding 2k capes are gonna send 12 minute normals and not be doing 30+ minute raids with low levels or irons

abstract reef
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Wow these takes are horrible

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People going for 2k capes will never do learners

fallen hull
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Agreed lone

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Big facts

abstract reef
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You think bazilijus will pot a 40 minute learner 150 toa for 2k cape?

fallen hull
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He won’t even do a 23 minute 400

abstract reef
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I did learner tobs back in my day

violet violet
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If it’s a passive reward that you feel would make people get a dopamine hit, I think that’s valid, but I wouldn’t think that makes the game much healthier

abstract reef
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Not because I wanted 2k cape, but because I wanted to help my cc learn tob

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And they were fun for me

violet violet
abstract reef
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Kekw

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And it's not like someone has a gun to your head, telling you to do cms

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You can do what ever the fk you want

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Carino had 15k cox kc

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You think he cared about 2k CM cape

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End of the day, all I'm saying changing cox capes is a bad take, slippery slope like salii mentioned for currently existing content

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Ever since the jar of darkness change, "cloggers" and I'm putting it in quotation for a reason, keep begging to make other thing easier

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Clog isn't meant to be completed. Nor meant to be a goal. It's a list of possible activities people can choose to do once they've "completed" the game

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Now I'm done with this tread, no point arguing here

fallen hull
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same, if you want to learn max eff cms thatre iron friendly there is a post that links you to a discord that has a lot of resources
#1127648722336100514 message

hoary socket
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I dont think using the top tier elite clog players as a bench mark really helps, of course the page 1 high scores will blitz through normal CoX
And I dont agree going from 700hr to 400-500hr is a slippery slope and I dont think the jar sits on that slope either
and that was fairly well shown with the baguette, the community voted no (as did I). As it is a fairly long grind, but also a passive one - so its fine as is

I'll likely never complete any raid cape, so it isnt even about finishing, but each and every ToA, I think "nice + 1 to the cape" where as CoX I go "well this is kinda a waste, i should only CM".
I want that "+1 nice" at CoX and the freedom to choose that ToA and ToB both offer

digital hazel
pine thicketBOT
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You have a funny feeling like you would've seen an Rlog here...

digital hazel
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I think the whole passive vs active is important though and is healthy for the game. Maybe the 2k itself isn’t passive at that point but the rest are and it’s not just one cape. We can agree to disagree on whether or not that’s healthy for the game

quick frigate
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https://youtu.be/4Fkf1RV7blo 54:55 go getcha cape lil bro

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digital hazel
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All good discussions here folks, disagreements are good and it’s nice to hear everyone’s perspectives on something like this