Tanks + Ifvs fire control systems

[distant crane]

Like in real life tanks should have the ability to laser range find a tank then have the range automatically adjusted for it on with this the drop on apsfds rounds are way to high irl a Mach 5 stabilised round dart shaped wouldn’t do a nose dive into the ground there shouldn’t be much drop even at 1000m

[zinc karma]

The range of the direct shot of an APFSDS in the T-72B(!) manual is ~2000 meters.
You literally should not use LRF at all shooting APFSDS, but I guess people want to make it unrealistic for a harder gunnery.

Also for some reason in Squad the tank shots either don't have the tracer or it's barely visible.

[unkempt forge]

I mean according to battle sight methodology you can shoot to about 1400 without accounting for drop. Our genneral SOP is under 1000 point and shoot fuck the LRF

Issue is that is not balanced in a game where you at most enage at around 1 km. An actual FCS in Squad we be unbalanced as all fuck especially with how tanky some of them are

[distant crane]

I have noticed that the tank shots are also just very slow for a mach 5 projectile they also don’t seem to be the most accurate

[distant crane]

It wouldn’t be that unbalanced there’s like what 2 tanks on most games FCs just makes them more effective at fighting other vehicles especially if they got there gun lead features but that would be very broken due to the tanks having health bars instead of proper armour and modules

[slim oracle]

Fcs would be stupid and would just makes tanks a point and click game not needing to account for drop and not accounting for lead

[distant crane]

it would just make tanks more realistic

the tanks already get the range automatically anyway your acting like this would change much except make the tanks more realistic its not hard to move the gun really high up for short shots but its just stupid

the sabot rounds should have way faster velocities

this is bullet drop on a round half the speed of apfsds

[slim oracle]

Gameplay over realism, if you want some realism go play ghpc

[distant crane]

how does it make the game play more fun 😭

[slim oracle]

Did I say it makes gameplay more fun

[distant crane]

ah yes lets lead the gun 5m above the target bc the velocity on our apsdfds round is like a quater of the actual speed

its stupid for a very realistic game

[distant crane]

then what does it do?

bc he rounds are still going to need to be led unless laser range finder actually does its job

even if they just fixed the awful velocity

[slim oracle]

Point and click with a tank makes gameplay pretty lame for tank on tank that seems to be what you want

[distant crane]

youd still have to aim for weak spots

[slim oracle]

Yes that is still point and click

It's not very hard to aim for something small when there's nothing to account for

[distant crane]

there shouldnt be anything to account for

thats the issue

its unrealistic

a dm53 round

goes mach 5

is fin stabilised

and very good aerodynamically

it shouldnt do a nose dive out of the barrel

[slim oracle]

I dont care what I goes irl because what it goes irl doesnt matter

Also it does not nosedive

[distant crane]

yeah it does

[distant crane]

it would hardly change them

unless they made them actually realistic

with fully working fcs

where they could lock onto a helicopter and automatically lead the gun

being able to hit a flying helicopter very easily

[slim oracle]

Yea ok go back to war thunder man

[distant crane]

warthunder doesnt have fcs

[slim oracle]

Great gameplay decisions

[distant crane]

wasnt asking for fully fledged fcs 😭

just ranging and real velocities

[slim oracle]

I misunderstood what you last said and thought you wanted full fcs but still even ranging i think is stupid

[zinc karma]

It literally was in the game.

You could range the sight in the Canadian Leo.

Then they deleted it.

[slim oracle]

Thats not what were talking about

That was manual

[distant crane]

how you alr have point and click stuff atgms

atp atgms arent even that much slower looking than the tank rounds 😭

[distant crane]

i am talking about having like irl where the lrf would automatically adjust to the exact range if say you clicked a button

while in the sight

[zinc karma]

It won't work with the T-72S/B3.

[distant crane]

why wouldnt it?

[zinc karma]

But would work with more modern tanks and the Abrams.

[distant crane]

uhm the t-72b3

irl

[zinc karma]

Because 1A40 just moves the reticle up and down.

It doesn't actually zero the sight, it just moves it according to the range.

[distant crane]

has a fire control system that can track tanks and automatically adjust for the speed its moving at and just about everything lol

[zinc karma]

Yeah, in the Sosna-U sight.

Which isn't present in the game.

[distant crane]

top right

[zinc karma]

It's on the model, but the sight you're looking through is the same as on the basic T-72 aka 172M "Ural".

[distant crane]

ohh

yeah

theyd have to change that most likely to the actual sight

[zinc karma]

It's a thermo sight, so 100 percent no.

[distant crane]

like dont wanna be too harsh but a roblox game models tanks better than squad

[distant crane]

just dont give it the thermal capabilities

the ztz99a should be a thermal sight

abrams

leopard 2a6m

[zinc karma]

Abrams' sight is some strange mix of the original sight and the backup sight.

Just like the Bradley's sight is its backup sight.

[distant crane]

guh why cant they model tanks a bit better 😭

[zinc karma]

Because fuck you and your combined arms shit, PR is bad, etc.

[distant crane]

thermals would be op i understand that so no thermals but still

[zinc karma]

Also, this model is so fucking hilarious.

[distant crane]

yeah i was going to try not question there models yet

[zinc karma]

The driver's periscope area somehow manages to get +300mm armor out of nothing, while in reality it is not covered in K-5 and is even worse in armor.

[distant crane]

yeah i think at most the periscope would be 100mm of armour

[junior ridge]

So you're telling me... You want to make the Abrams even better than all the other tanks that it's already superior to?....

[distant crane]

why would this only help the abrams

when every tank should get this ability?

[distant crane]

huh?

the only way the abrams could be op is with the stupid damage models 😭

[unkempt forge]

We’re talking about a game where the infantry can’t aim if you shoot in their general direction and you want to give said vehicle and instantaneous point and shoot that mean they can hit dead on as long as they know where the infantry is

That is not balanced in anyway and would just make the vehicles way more oppressive than they already are in game with their cracked armour stats

[unkempt forge]

The fact that tank first need to aim with 0 and then move to range shown by the ingame range finder gives the infantry player a chance to either get out of dodge and call up to their own armour

Whats realistic isnt necessarily balanced when were talking about a game that is supposed to be fun for everyone involved and vehicle armour in Squad are already absurdly unrealistic in terms punishment they can take so they actually require skill to take out and use instead of it just being whoever spots who creams the other

[zinc karma]

Abrams should be a one-shot tank lmao.

38mm UFP is hilarious even by 1981 standard.

[unkempt forge]

No they shouldnt

BTR 80 has no FCS
Neither does the version of the BMP 1 in game
Same goes for the T-64 as only T-64Bs have had it retrofitted
The BMP 2 dosent either its one of the major upgrade on the 2M

[zinc karma]

T-64A obr.81 has laser rangefinder.

The same as on the T-72A.

And the T-64B is fucking old ass.

[junior ridge]

I think he meant T62

Cuz we don't have a 64 as far as I'm aware

[unkempt forge]

OBR where testbeds this one was a testbed for the 64B upgrade not an actual mass made vehicle

Its like saying the T-64 LRF had a range finder like of course it did it was a testbed for LRF.

Like i know fucking Gaijin want to pretend testbeds are actual vehicles so they can sell premium that have busted mechanics for their BRs but these vehicles never saw any real use as they were for testing technology on actual future vehicles

[unkempt forge]

Nope did mean 64 just remembered the one in game as a 64 for some reason

[junior ridge]

Peculiar

Intriguing

But uh yeah we have a 62 not a 64

[unkempt forge]

But the point stands te T-62 lacks one too

[junior ridge]

Ye

[unkempt forge]

Yea we call that an aimbot in most computer games

[zenith jewel]

Gunnery in a game like GHPC with realistic ballistics and FCS is more difficult than in Squad. I dont see this as a problem when properly implemented with joystick sim etc.

[unkempt forge]

GHPC is stupid easy same goes for Steel Beast Sim and Professional as they dont actually simulate the hard parts of using an FCS like powder temprature wind, air preassure and such parameters you need to meassure yourself and feed the FCS. Lastly its not balanced when someone has to actually play as the infantry

[slim oracle]

Yea i dont know what joy stick sim is

[zenith jewel]

Not really when properly implemented.

[zenith jewel]

Not when you want to aim for weak spots like in current Squad. Good luck hitting the gun mantled of a moving M1 in GHPC at 1km+, even with the FCS.

[unkempt forge]

Thats because Squad armour system in genneral sucks but an FCS dosent fix that they just fucks up the game for all the infantry and all the vehicles that dont feature one. Its litterally just a flat upgrade to the best vehicles in game

[zenith jewel]

Copy pasting GHPC controls and FCS into squad would be an extreme buff for infantry. No longer first round hits with the MG, acquiring moving infantry would be significantly more difficult with the joysick sim etc.
The more mediocre tanks like T-72B3, ZTZ, M60 would be buffed because they have the most modern FCS of the ingame tanks. The other tanks would be stuck with simple ranging or the current system, which is not difficult at all to use. So the tank vs tank balance would not really be affected without thermals.

[zinc karma]

T-62M.

[zinc karma]

T-64A obr.81 isn't a testbed, it's a retrofit.

Like the T-64R.

[unkempt forge]

You get first round hit in GHPC provided you understand lasing methodology

Joystick is a matter of what type of joystick you use

Giving the T72, ZTZ and M60 FCS while not giving it to the Leopard, Abrams, MGS or Bradley would make zero fucking sense and would just add unintuatuive quirks for new players to learn. If you add an FCS its should be on vehicles that have an FCS so if someone is told an FCS is in game and he then jump on a vehicles that has an FCS he shouldnt bve suprised with it not being there

Also the M60 didtn have lead and LRF in their FCS untill much later models. They relied on coincidence ranging so fuck PMCs M60

[unkempt forge]

Is not in game

[unkempt forge]

T-64B is the retrofit obr.81 is the testbed for said retrofit

[distant crane]

Lwk I was only asking for proper lrf and realistic trajectories on the tank rounds but seems like this would apparently be too op or smthin 💔

[zinc karma]

The fuck you mean.

[zinc karma]

PMC's M60 is M60T, which has LRF.

[zinc karma]

Infantry sucks ass post ICO, so yeah.

[unkempt forge]

Isnt it renamed for PMC to just 60?

[zinc karma]

No.

[unkempt forge]

Remeber it as being renamed to make sense a western PMC having Turk tanks was weird. Maybe that was just a suggestion in here. IDK dont play PMC much as i find them a boring faction but the WIKI should be accurate

[distant crane]

Obviously not every vehicle should receive it only the ones with it. Maybe just upgrade some of the factions vehicles to newer models

It’s not that difficult

[zinc karma]

They thought the ATGMs are too OP and they almost killed them, except wired ones for some reason.

[unkempt forge]

And that would be unbalanced as fuck

[zinc karma]

Malyutka became the top ATGM which is absolutely astonishing.

[distant crane]

How would it?

Acting like 2 tanks with lrf and proper velocities is gonna end the game 😭

[unkempt forge]

How would it be unbalanced that some of the best vehicles in game just get buffed so they dont even need skill to aim while the other vehicles dont get anything? Jesus

[distant crane]

Are you able to read

[zinc karma]

Bro, the only ones getting nothing are old ass shits that get rekt even without FCS system.

[unkempt forge]

There is no need to fuck over vehicles that are already shit

[zinc karma]

Idk, I thought all these MEI/Ins should play tactically, positionally and other smart words to compensate for their lack of normal vehicles.

But people don't even know what a firing table is, so what do you except.

[unkempt forge]

All western and Chinese(Allegedly) vehicles have FCS, no vehicles in insurgent or Militia do, MEA has only T-72, Russia has only the T-72, BMP-3, BMP-2M and Sprut SDM. So your taking vehicles that already dominate vehicle wise and making them better for no fucking reason

[distant crane]

All of those vehicles you just mentioned for Russia have FCs

[zinc karma]

Russia has only the T-72, BMP-3, BMP-2M and Sprut SDM
And why do you write "only"? It's literally a technically advanced country.

[unkempt forge]

Yea read my guy they are the only ones with

[zinc karma]

Russia would have FCS on everything except BMP-2/BTR-80/82.

[unkempt forge]

While ALL NATO and Chinese have it

[zinc karma]

It's not that big of a deal to not have a FCS on a BMP-2.

[unkempt forge]

Yea while going up against a NATO faction that has it on everything

[distant crane]

Make all the bmps 2m variants

[unkempt forge]

It is when the Bradley has it and your going up against it

[distant crane]

For the nations that have them irl

If you choose one of those Middle Eastern factions kinda ur own fault and they have c4 anyway

[unkempt forge]

Then you have mobile ATGMs IFVs on battalions that arent supposed to have it

[distant crane]

The regular bmp2 has atgms

😭

You have a very strong opinion but don’t seem to be the smartest

[unkempt forge]

It shouldnt be "its your own fault if you chose a bad faction" all factions should be viable

[unkempt forge]

Yea not 4 rapid fire my guy

[distant crane]

C4

[distant crane]

They have a delays before you can fire each one or at least they should do

[unkempt forge]

Oh that would balance it? Jesus christ a sucicide IED does not make up for an upgrade that allows everyone to point and shoot it would even make IED bikes harder to pull of as the FCS makes it point and shoot

And then were not even talking about the nightmare it would be for infantry in genneral

[distant crane]

Yes it does stop yapping so much 💔

[zenith jewel]

First round hit in Squad is also super easy, but worthless because simply hitting the target is irrelevant, you have to pen it. This would be more difficult due to less accuracy with joystick sim.

joystick sim has nothing to do with having a real joystick, it is how turret traverse is controlled by mouse in GHPC.

You did not read properly. T72, ZTZ and M60 Sabre would have the most advanced FCS systems, Leo, Abrams and Chally have more basic ones (when they are implemented as realistic as possible).

[unkempt forge]

You know fuck about balance even War thunder players understand that game balance comes before anything else which is why you dont get fucking lead and APFSDS with zero drop

[zinc karma]

If you haven't noticed all 30mm guns suck against 25mm.

[distant crane]

Apfsds in squad does a nose dive out of the barrel currently fym no bullet drop

[zinc karma]

So it's already a lost cause.

[zinc karma]

How a T-72 is going to have a more advanced FCS with the 1A40.

[zenith jewel]

T72B3

[zinc karma]

It's literally a worse FCS compared to Abrams.

[zenith jewel]

SosnaU

[zinc karma]

Sosna-U IS NOT USED IN THE GAME.

The sight picture is that of the 1A40.

[distant crane]

They could change that

[zenith jewel]

Dude, the post is about adding FCS, with would mean adding SOSNA U for T72B3

[unkempt forge]

Yea and you fuck all the infantry that just gets vaporiesed

Joysticks are not less accurate its just get a joystick that good the one we use for trainning CV90 is much better and more accurate than my mouse for example and those are on the open market

That just dosent make any sense that older vehicles would have better stuff than never ones

[zinc karma]

And even with Sosna-U, it's literally the same, except having a better thermal (2nd+gen vs 3rd).

[distant crane]

Yk you can use joystick aiming with a mouse right?

[zenith jewel]

hitting infantry in GHPC takes much longer than in Squad where turrets are basically controlled like infantry weapons. You would know that if you would have played both games.

[unkempt forge]

APFSDS is raging(As in next to zero drop) to 1.4km if you make it like that in any game the Abrams and Bradley can hit by pointing and shooting even War Thunder dosent do that because itd be fucking busted

[zinc karma]

Yeah, and the T-72B has 2km, what's the point.

The insurgency now has a T-72A with a fucking 3BM32 pulled out of thin air, so it would have the same.

[unkempt forge]

Im sorry but thats a skill issue from both of you

I am used to trainning in steel beast professional and its no problem for me, its just understanding laserranging methodology and how to use laser echos

[zinc karma]

It's not about lasers but the way GHPC executes controlling the gun.

[unkempt forge]

Again its a skill issue

[unkempt forge]

Yea that isnt really relevant when i can then use a joystick and make it much easier

[zenith jewel]

Then you are not trained in Squad tho.

[unkempt forge]

Squad is harder than SIM because Squad is a PVP game where you need an actual skill cealing so players can get better and improve

SIMs are dummy easy to a level where its boring if your forced to do hours of it professionally and thats because they are accurate to how the system works IRL in optimal conditions so you dont need to think about powder temprature, wind shifts, opposite wind directions at different point of the projectile path, barrel heating so on and so on. It just work you just need to use the LRF correctly and pull the trigger because in essence that is all you do provided everything is running optimally

[zenith jewel]

This is irrelevant. This is about the input methods from GHPC and from Squad, and the one from Squad is significantly faster and more precise. Therefor using the GHPC method in Squad would make target acquisition more difficult.

[unkempt forge]

No it isnt its about FCSs and how they should be like GHPC and making it like a SIM is dumb because SIMs are fucking easy compared to whats currently in game

[zenith jewel]

Then you answered to the wrong comment. Anyway. reading a number and picking the right chevron on a crosshair or pressing a button to range the gun are both very easy actions and do not require much from the player.

[unkempt forge]

Yea its also easy because vehicles are simply busted currently in Squad, but its harder than pointing where you want to hit, hitting LRF and vaporising an infantry squad that jumped on to have fun. An exact calculations will always be me more precise than a rough area between two chevrons even if it isnt that big a diffrence +it takes more time allowing the squad to react

[zenith jewel]

Any advantage in ranging accuracy would be more than compensated with the significant target aquisition increase by a GHPC like joystick sim.

As I said, copying GHPC controls and FCS into Squad would be a major nerf against infantry.

[unkempt forge]

No because joystick sim is is only hard if you dont use a joystick

Then it would just be about who has a more accurate joystick

[zenith jewel]

If this would be the case, then every comp game on PC would be played with a joystick instead of a mouse.

And everyone who aimed a vehicle turret in Squad and in GHCP knows that it takes longer in GHPC, this is a fact that no one can seriously argue about.

[zinc karma]

Helis are OP because people can use joysticks instead of a mouse

[unkempt forge]

No because a mouse is way more accurate to point with in genneral

But if the game simulates the moving of a joystick then a joystick will be better as that control scheme is optimised for joysticks

Same with how a gamepad is better for a fighting game because as the button layout is better optimised for fighting games

[unkempt forge]

Heli pilots with joystick are way better than than mouse yea

Diffrence is helis cant really vaporise a squad and the only one that can is made of tissue paper

[zenith jewel]

Irrelevant, because we are comparing mouse input to joystick sim, not joystick sim to actual joysticks.

[unkempt forge]

No but if you add in joystick sim then people will just use a joystick its that simple

[zenith jewel]

Which would still be less effective than mouse input, so our point stands.

[unkempt forge]

No if in game it simulates a joystick then a joystick will be much better as the intuativly work better

Like SB professional allows you to use both

[zenith jewel]

Why are you saying this all the time, this is not relevant at all for your arguments.

[unkempt forge]

Because joystick sim as a "downside" dosent make up for giving a vehicles an FCS when the downside can be circumvented by just using a joystick

[zenith jewel]

So you really belive that aiming with a joystick is faster as with the current ingame mouse controls? I want to see proof of that.

[unkempt forge]

Hook up Steel Beast play a game with joystick sim and then an actual joystick and not one of those cheap single axis ball ones the difference is night and day you much faster on the joystick.

Turret max rotation speed will remain the same wether you use a mouse or a joystick its just harder to control when using a mouse as your simulating using a joystick without actually using one so its less intuative for your brain which is what makes your engagements slower

[zenith jewel]

Again, we are comparint the CURRENT INGAME mouse input WITHOUT proper joystick sim vs. joystick sim or an actual joystick. We are NOT comparing GHPC joystick sim to an actual joystick

[unkempt forge]

Joystick sim is not a downside when it can be CIRCUMVENTED by just using a joystick.

You want to add an aiming scheme that is just flat worse for 95% of the player base to justify having point and click on a vehicle while 5% of the playerbase just circumvents the downside by using their joystick

Or you could you just not add point and click.......

[zenith jewel]

And we are again at the point where you claim that a joystick is as good as non joystick sim mouse input...

[unkempt forge]

No the current scheme in game is optimised for mouse and thus better played with a mouse

The new one you want to add would be optimised for a joystick and thus better played with a joystick

[zenith jewel]

So adding any form of joystick controls would be a nerf compared to the current system, which is the point we made.

[unkempt forge]

Ehh no it would only be nerf to those who dont have a joystick to circumvent the nerf

[zenith jewel]

In the pervious statement you sayed otherwise yourself.

[unkempt forge]

It would litterally add a paywall to be competetive in any way

[zenith jewel]

So is a high end GPU, or a high refresh rate 4K monitor.

which have significantly more impact than a joystick

[unkempt forge]

Thats a strawman

As no matter what youd need a GPU, a monitor and a mouse and keyboad to operate your OS and launch the game and then to play the game with. The devs cant nerf better hardware except for UW monitors where some games limit FOV

You can however just not add a control scheme optimised for a niche peripheral only used by a niche crowd of gamers and continue to use the control scheme that plays best for 95% of the playerbase

[light lance]

joysticks are less than $20 man.

[distant crane]

Get a load of this guy 💔

Fighting a battle with like 4 people vro give it up no one cares about ur opinion

[winter lagoon]

I dont think we need a FCS and rangefinder when alot of engagements are at max 100 meters. If we got bigger maps, better at weapons and a vehicle combat overhaul it would be alot more useful. Using the battle sight with the LRF is fine

[unkempt forge]

You are still forced to pay for it to be competitive

Also 20 bucks for good joystick? A good one is at least 100. Which may not be a lot for you and me but with the amount of people complaining they need to upgrade their GPU in here when it’s “only” 600-800 bucks

[unkempt forge]

Yea plenty of people who want to turn Squad into a wet LARP dream without thinking about balance just see the amount of people that want IED drone or to be able to hear enemy comms.

It dosent make them right though which I why he needed to leave off on a strawman about how expensive screens and GPU are comparable to a peripheral most people don’t have or need without his addition

[light lance]

I didn't say, "good."

[distant crane]

Mate I have seen you in many different suggestions you just seem to hate most of them 😭 and are generally pretty nasty to the people who suggested them

[unkempt forge]

There is nothing nasty about what I write just pure cold fact

It’s a dumb idea that so dumb even THE actual vehicle focused game hasn’t gone that far and you want it in a game where people play infantry

It’s also bypasses basic factors of the such as exaggerated drop

[distant crane]

Not saying in this one but you have been in some arguments with some other people but luckily it seems more people like this idea than don’t so seems like ur alone on this one people want more realistic vehicles and you can find ways to balance them you just needa stop crying holyyyy 💔

Like wayyyy too much yapping man

[unkempt forge]

More people also want fpv than don’t dosent make it a good suggestion

[distant crane]

That’d be fine if you can add drone jammers and stuff like what exist in real life

Or guns to deal with them

But I don’t particularly like fpv drones