#Reduce Armor Spam and Increase Logis

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

native ivy
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The vehicle setup per unit is not balanced and is detrimental to good gameplay.
TLDR It is my opinion that the maximum amount of armored assets should be 4, there is absolutely no reason to need more than 4 armored vehicles. It would also be nice to have 3 logis standard again.

Before faction voting, on a typical map layer most factions had 1 MBT and either 2 APCs or an APC and an IFV. Usually the maximum amount of armored vehicles was 4, except for special layers like Tallil Tanks. This made it so the armor wasnt overbearing on the infantry. The infantry also got 3 logis standard.

After faction voting, combined arms units lose a logi for an extra APC. Some units are ridiculous like the US Stryker Brigade having 7 armored units requiring a minimum of 14 crewmen to make full use of the faction. This takes away from the infantry gameplay by hyperfocusing on vehicle gameplay and needing to take more than a full squads worth of players to keep it running.

Another thing I dont like is the reduction of logis. The reduction from 3 to 2 logis is significant and cannot be understated. If for any reason those 2 logis are abandoned or ambushed, your team is generally SOL. It also makes it difficult to keep up supplies and most games involve struggling to keep FOBs topped off and commonly limiting the team to a single attack and defense FOB. The only factions that easily does logistics is the IMF and Insurgents who can have anywhere between 5 and 6 logistics vehicles for their units, which makes some sense due to a lack of a helicopter, but does not excuse the massive gap.

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Reduce Armor Spam and Increase Logis

shell yarrow
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Yup, I think this is an excellent idea. New units are overstuffed with armour to the point of silliness.

upbeat mesa
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2 logis is necessary for reducing FOB spam, play off of rallies via transports. Most units have 4 armoured vehicles, the ones that have more they are either pretty worthless (Stryker 30 cal) or obviously tilted that way (MEA Armoured, Mil Mechanized).

native ivy
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Theres reducing FOB spam and then theres being completely unable to resupply or create new FOBs mid game due to a variety of issues that comes from cutting your logis by a third. As Ive said, the INS and IMF get a minimum of 5 logis and can go up to 6, so how does that come close to a team stuck with 2?

light prawn
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Most units still get 4 logistics vehicles, including helicopters, dont they?

native ivy
light prawn
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3 logis is still sufficient imo. One for the attack, one for the defense, and one to do other stuff.

native ivy
upbeat mesa
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Combined arms gets 2 helis and 2 logis.

native ivy
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Its decent but Id honestly rather trade a heli on most maps for an extra logi truck. It gets hard to keep FOBs hidden if a heli is hovering over it. IMO helis are also more likely to get shot than a logi unless the logi uses a route that gets ambushed

shell yarrow
native ivy
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I think it would stand to make a good difference. Considering how underused Airborne, Light, and even Combined Arms is, it stands to show that armor has become too prevalent

upbeat mesa
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It stands to show that these light vics suck due to their high ticket cost.

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Also the insanely variable strength between each of these units. The Russian Light Infantry unit is horrendous. One ATGM vic with 500 pen and no bikes/quads.

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Also that the 50 cal is worthless vs most IFVs and even APCs, the MK19 can't penetrate anything and the ATGMs themselves got nerfed a little too much (TOW especially).

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Better to make the bad stuff actually good instead of making everything similarly unplayable.

native ivy
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I disagree, it isnt about simply making certain factions worse, but focusing the gameplay back on infantry

upbeat mesa
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There's infantry focused maps and infantry focused units, pick those.

proper lion
light prawn
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Just because on some servers people refuse to learn that placing a HAB at the edge of a large field and running 200m across open ground to a cap with no cover while the enemy has armor superiority is a bad idea, it does not make the game less infantry focused. It just punishes bad tactics.

timid wing
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vote good factions

shell yarrow
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None of the large units are actually infantry-focused, even Light Infantry is really just anti-armour vics

upbeat mesa
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And then air assault which is all infantry.

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Support, all infantry but 1-2 weak IFVs.

shell yarrow
upbeat mesa
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And? If units didn't have MBTs they'd just get slapped on most maps.

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It's an unfortunate compromise that they all need one to be playable with current Squad vic balance.

upbeat mesa
shell yarrow
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There is no solution to this that doesn't include removing the MBT from these units

upbeat mesa
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If they don't have MBTs they just get bullied by enemy tanks and IFVs.

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Since ATGMs now suck.

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You complain that the game isn't "infantry focused" when 80%+ of players on each team are playing infantry, there's two types of maps (small and medium) where you just play infantry and on the majority of (good) maps you can play properly and avoid armour wrecking you.

shell yarrow
upbeat mesa
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They get picked enough ime, it's up to servers to incentivise their play (they are fine).

native ivy
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Im seeing a lot of idealisms without getting to the core of the issue of gameplay most commonly seen today

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Honestly it just seems like a lot of deflection and despite being a very vocal person, the votes have you in the minority on this topic

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For example, it is contradictory to first say most maps and gamemodes are infantry focused and then say that not having an MBT (which is not being recommended in my suggestion) would make units terrible

upbeat mesa
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It makes playing the vehicles very bad, mostly, a tank is a bit different from an IFV in how it can sit in front of infantry AT and not be damaged so every unit needs a tank to fight the enemy tank, generally.

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A tank versus infantry is so so but you can't be expected to be using your light vics, helis or IFVs when there is an uncontested tank.

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And when air assault has no specific AT option and the light infantry ATGM carriers are mostly bad then you need a tank in these units to keep that asset occupied.

native ivy
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Light and Air Assault gets extra HATs

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And ATGMs

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HOWEVER, as my suggestion states, teams rarely have enough logisitical vehicles to build and maintain ATGMs without neglecting their more important FOBs

upbeat mesa
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Unless you're RGF with RPG-28 front penning a tank can be a chore with HAT and they can often sit out of range, and ATGM emplacements are super situational and often very weak for their cost.

I'm saying if ATGMs were better (I.E. not nerfed by the "rework") these units wouldn't need a tank.

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And it's more that the ATGMs and their ammo costs too much than the reduced number of logi vics.

native ivy
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I dont agree with the last statement only because the thing really holding back ATGMs is their lack of availability and ammunition because of reduced logistics

upbeat mesa
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So instead of buffing logistics (making it easier to build everything else) you could just reduce the cost of ATGMs.

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On air assault 3 helis and 2 logis is already a lot.

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It's just that if you want to resupply an ATGM FOB with a heli you're spending the ENTIRE game doing it because it's so expensive.

native ivy
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Helis are not a 1 to 1 equal to logi trucks

upbeat mesa
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Yeah they're often better by time per supply.

native ivy
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They give away your FOBs position and can be easily shot down

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But they are faster as you said

upbeat mesa
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The only thing I'd really be open to insofar as logis is having an extra one spawn at 20-30 minutes into a game.

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To either let you come back or incentivise an attack FOB.

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Roll outs with 2 then 1-2 helis is enough for a game and keeps people focused.

native ivy
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Honestly thats the first good thing Ive heard yet

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An amendment like putting the extra logi on spawn timers would be good at keeping FOB spamming down early in the game

upbeat mesa
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Letting almost all your infantry roll out in logi trucks is silly and really the trucks themselves should be limited to 3 men along with cheaper MRAPs and transports. But atm the downside of having 2 (on most units) is that you could lose 1 or both early due to small misplays (or bad SLs) and be stuck.

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Especially punishing for the motorized and mechanised units that don't get much over combined that lose a heli.

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Still, the ATGM problem (if they're meant to be this weak) is how expensive they are. It's not worth it on anything but a dedicated FOB for them with constant resupply.

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I am NEVER placing them on a regular FOB since that just eats 600 build that could've instead been ammo and then 500 ammo a shot that could've been 16 LATs or 6 HAT shots.

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Just cutting the costs in half for the build and ammo would make them fine, a "spammable" ATGM is easily just countered by knowing where it is and shooting it.

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Resupplying ATGMs of any type on a vehicle costs 200 ammo and you do it off a repair station that costs 500 build.

timid wing
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this is almsot never an issue

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if you voluntarily vote for air assault its a skill issue

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Literally worst unit type in game for 90% of the maps

upbeat mesa
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So it should just stay bad then.

timid wing
upbeat mesa
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It's not even good on the other 10% (you mean AAS since you can get to their caps) because you have no vics to secure space and your ATGMs are stupid expensive so you can't even shoot the enemy's.

timid wing
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Its usable on skorpo

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Just need enough heli pilots

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besides that its genuinely just a skill issue

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4 hat kits plus several open tops isnt that bad

upbeat mesa
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It's also not as good as having IFVs.

timid wing
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then dont pick it

upbeat mesa
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Then you buff it, because the unit is bad.

timid wing
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Its not a bad unit lol

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it simply requires more cohesion and enough pilots

upbeat mesa
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But the big other AT advantage (helis resupplying FOBs that can use two ATGMs) is almost useless because the ATGMs are too expensive and too weak.

timid wing
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Just use the helis for infantry drops

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dont even need to use them to drop FOB's

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Mi8 can carry more than a full squad

upbeat mesa
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And compared to combined arms you are only getting 1 more heli (too many), just that they spawn immediately instead of 2 minutes after game start.

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Which just makes them only good for point rushing on AAS but you can rarely hold the ground because you, again, have no vics and the ATGMs suck.

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Compare PLA Combined arms vs Air Assault.

Air Assault loses 2 ZBL-08s, 1 ZBD04 and has 15 minute longer spawn on the ZTZ for the bonus of 2 CSKs with 30 cals (trash at 5 tickets) 1 extra 50 cal CSK (meh), 1 extra heli (2 was enough), 2 extra HAT kits (good but not a game changer), insta spawn helis (only good on AAS) and a second ATGM on a FOB (worthless because they are so expensive).

timid wing
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besides AAS it can work out in invasion aswell

upbeat mesa
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Invasion is the game mode that demands vics the most.

timid wing
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Skorpo is a great example of air assault being capable

upbeat mesa
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Since that's your only reliable force multiplier on the attack. On defense you need your own vics to kill theirs.

timid wing
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If ur on attack as air assault on skorpo you can lock down the enemies only usable road

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set up on the southern mountain ridges

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have helis bring you supply

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(only works on v1)

upbeat mesa
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So we have a whole class of unit that is so niche they're only good on one map and one layer.

timid wing
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Can also work on other layers

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its honestly just reliant on having helis scouting and dropping supplies

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Air assault is already in a weird spot

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theres basically no way of buffing it without making light infantry irrelevant

upbeat mesa
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You can buff both and buffing ATGMs across the board helps all units.

timid wing
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Buff both how?

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More vehicles?

upbeat mesa
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Cheaper light vics overall so you don't bleed so many tickets and you can shift the vics each unit gets.

timid wing
upbeat mesa
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It adds up, DUH

timid wing
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People just use light vics stupidly lol

upbeat mesa
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And the fact a BTR-80 costs the same as a 30 cal MRAP/SIMIR is stupid.

timid wing
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only good thing about it is the 14.5

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also u need crewmen

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and its loud as fuck

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Its also incredibly easy to kill

upbeat mesa
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The BTR can't have the crew shot out, has more health, has an enclosed turret that can engage many more vehicles than even a 50 cal MRAP.

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Point is that it's a stronger asset than any of them yet it costs the same.

timid wing
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because it also brings a tradeoff

upbeat mesa
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I wouldn't say the BTR-80 needs to cost more but that these light vics should cost less because they are so fragile and weak.

timid wing
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if you are running a mot or mech inf squad in a btr-80 you need 2 guys to crewman

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You are very loud

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and ontop of that you are basically just as fragile

upbeat mesa
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And if you're running a light vic the expectation is that you'll be using that weapon for combat. If you're not then you might as well be using a transport truck or just walking.

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"Just as fragile". The crew of the BTR can't be killed in a couple shots.

timid wing
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250 hp more lol

upbeat mesa
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Neither can any of the passengers.

timid wing
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its still food for HAT kits

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again, having the helis fly around, maybe even sitting at height limit to scout, then swarming vics with infantry always works

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Majority of the time you dont even need to go out and search for the enemy vics because they are very likely to just brainlessly roll towards you

upbeat mesa
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If the vehicle is any good they're not letting that happen.

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Just sitting waiting to get killed by infantry, yeah.

timid wing
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if you are playing armor u are bound to get spotted

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There is no way around it lol

upbeat mesa
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Then you're always moving or you're in a position where you can easily kill people coming up on you.

timid wing
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If you want to effectively engage infantry, somebody is probably going to notice you

timid wing
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what a surprise

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Didnt think of that

upbeat mesa
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You're trying to say that some shitty light vics and a couple extra HAT kits can overcome having actual vehicles. I'm just pointing out that that's bogus and that Light Inf and Air Assault need buffs.

timid wing
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The only way to not get killed is to run at the slightest notice of threat

timid wing
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if people just mindlessly drive towards armor in their matv of course they are going to die

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get the helis to scout and pick an area which you can somewhat safely drive through

upbeat mesa
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If you're seen by armour or anything with a 50 for a second you get turned into swiss cheese and lose the same amount of tickets as if you were using an APC.

timid wing
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I also get swiss cheesed on a motorbike

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so i dont drive directly at the enemy armor

upbeat mesa
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You can flank in any other unit that gives you light vics or you can just do it in an APC a little slower (the "loudness" is vehicle to vehicle and rarely matters).

timid wing
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if u need practice for flanking vehicles just play as insurgents and use the humvee as a SVBIED, you will figure out how to flank the enemy

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4 HAT kits

upbeat mesa
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Because 2 HAT kits makes up for losing all your armour but the MBT.

timid wing
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tradeoff u take for voting air assault lol

upbeat mesa
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It's a bad trade off.

timid wing
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Then dont do it lol

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voting was introduced for a reason

upbeat mesa
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"Voting was introduced so a bunch of the options could be shit"

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Okay

timid wing
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unless you are playing on a server with fixed rotation i wouldnt see why this is an issue

upbeat mesa
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TLF should just stay garbage then

timid wing
timid wing
upbeat mesa
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Because you can just choose not to play them.

timid wing
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literally best infantry combat unit

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insane rifles

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and u think they are shit

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this quite literally sounds like a massive skill issue

upbeat mesa
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"Best infantry combat unit" with rifles worse than G3s and an MGL instead of any HATs and crap vics.

timid wing
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have you ever played the turkish rifles

upbeat mesa
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The stats are worse, not by much but they're worse.

timid wing
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TLF rifles are literally top 3 infantry weapons lol

upbeat mesa
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You can't just say incorrect things.

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They are not "top 3" when they're a battle rifle with worse stats than the G3.

timid wing
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ok bud

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still the top 3 of infantry weapons lol

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just sounds like a massive skill issue if you struggle to use the mpt 76

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plus the MKE GL kit is basically the best grenadier kit

upbeat mesa
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Okay so you're just trolling and deserve nobody's time. Bye.

timid wing
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womp womp

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mpt 76 is not a shit weapon go play a live match xD

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also if u believe the G3 sucks u are wrong lol

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battle rifles are literally the best all rounders in squad

hollow trellis
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its dogass for distance if OHK was removed you wouldnt be yapping your shit

timid wing
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As long as you have a scope it’s not that difficult to hit ranged shots