Ico 2.0

[tulip crypt]

to you optimization is just a fucking black box of "fps get better"

Does it even occur to you that modelers don't work on optimizing code?

Do you even know what a software development team looks like or how it organizes work?

[vivid crater]

Do you understand that developing costs money?

[tulip crypt]

hurrrrrrrrr

[vivid crater]

MY point being that I would be fine with seeing resources diverted to optimisation

Do you understand that?

[tulip crypt]

big brain response

nobody cares what you're fine with

you can't divert a modeler to fix that problem

[vivid crater]

Im not saying they should hop into studio and start magically fixing the code

[tulip crypt]

what do you think the programmers are working on rn

[vivid crater]

resources

[tulip crypt]

think about the workstreams that exist right now

[vivid crater]

RESOURCES

MONEY

[tulip crypt]

Ah yes magical resources

I shit resources out

[vivid crater]

MONEY

[tulip crypt]

ah yes throw money at problem

hmm big brain

i company man

That's such a batshit insane response. You can't throw money at software to make it optimized. You need programmers that have experience with the software who are able to both maintain existing functionality and solve for inefficiencies. That's before we even talk about finding the inefficiencies.

[vivid crater]

Do you think past the first step?

[tulip crypt]

Do you?

RESOURCES

[vivid crater]

Remember how Post Scriptum was bought by OWI

[tulip crypt]

RESOURCES

[vivid crater]

then brought in a new team

NEW TEAM

[tulip crypt]

yes, who took a year to acclimate and publish their first releases?

NEW TEAM

RESOURCES

mercury was it's own team

they have processes beyond owi and still do

[stone zenith]

The heck did I walk into

[tulip crypt]

there are problems with the idea of just throwing contractors onto an existing team and hoping it all works out

it turns out that teams have structure and processes in software development

and trying to integrate disparate teams is not ease

it is difficult difficult lemon difficult

Again you're missing the entire point though

modelers dont oPtiMizE

[manic ocean]

So anyway, I went to the airport for my vacation. I go through this long-ass line at security, and get on my flight. When I arrive though, they say, "Hey wait a min we have to figure out which flight we put you bags on", but the thing is I can still SEE motherfucking airport employee doing bullshit like checking in bags, boarding passengers on planes, guiding aircraft around the runway, and even taking off and landing planes INSTEAD OF LOOKING FOR MY BAGS!

Why did they have people doing all that, when they said they'd look for my bags? Complete bullshit.

[tulip crypt]

what have you seen OWI show off lately?

maps. wpmc.

you think Wunda is gonna go solve your FPS?

Wunda is trying to figure out where to place trees on Basrah bro.

So what are all those programmers doing that OWI hires huh

[vivid crater]

Where did I say the modelers should fucking fix FPS

[tulip crypt]

RESOURCES

M O N E Y

dumb

use your thinking brain

[glacial solar]

@tulip crypt pickachu how to get performance then from OWI side ? How to optimize the game ?

[tulip crypt]

optimize button obvi

[glacial solar]

So what’s stopping them ?

[tulip crypt]

can't find button

[glacial solar]

Create one

[tulip crypt]

ok

[glacial solar]

Money right ?

😶‍🌫️

[tulip crypt]

found it

[glacial solar]

So much for PROFIT NON PROFIT topic

We had before

Bro you text like you sit in OWI

[tulip crypt]

who da fuck is nonprofit

[glacial solar]

Poaw said it

You barked because I said tenscent have the bag

You laughed

[tulip crypt]

yes bro i'm really an alt account for a dev desperately trying to get you to not be so mean about ico because it was my brain child

[glacial solar]

WHO knows

[tulip crypt]

oh yah i did that shit is so funny

[glacial solar]

there is people out here they define themselves as pickachu

[tulip crypt]

i mean its not because it's a lot of latent sinophobic shit but it is funny

[glacial solar]

So why don’t optimize it then ?

Isn’t it possible

[tulip crypt]

can't find button

[glacial solar]

For the OWNERS

not the modelers

[tulip crypt]

they did not create nor own the game engine

[glacial solar]

Ok so they need to buy a new UNREAL ENGINE 5 6 what ever if it’s available

Right ?

[tulip crypt]

lol its not a buy problem

[glacial solar]

And work with this

[tulip crypt]

I mean yes they probably do have to upgrade licenses with Unreal but that's really besides the point

[granite phoenix]

Just port the game to source 2

[tulip crypt]

now we're talking

[vivid crater]

very much doubt OWI has the RESOURCES to fucking migrate Squad from UE4 to UE5 lol

[tulip crypt]

bro why did they release counterstrike go if they were just going to release counterstrike 2

smh just release counterstrike 2 first

[vivid crater]

cs2 is dogshit anyways

[tulip crypt]

every time you type resources in caps I imagine joe screaming SODA

[vivid crater]

Everytime I see you type an image of destiny pops into my head

[tulip crypt]

destiny can actually drown in shit

anyway

[vivid crater]

oh wow

Holy shit

W

statement

[tulip crypt]

UE4->5 is not really a money problem

[vivid crater]

at that point wouldnt it just make more sense to make squad 2?

[tulip crypt]

Why would it

[vivid crater]

Squad surely has a bunch of spaghetti code

[tulip crypt]

Are you aware that code can be refactored

What tangible benefit would re-releasing the same game, rebuilt on UE5 bring?

You think everyone is just gonna be like aw yes, basically the same product but on a new engine?

[glacial solar]

Nvvy pickachu so what would be a possible solution tell us ?

Tell us man

[vivid crater]

NO i dont think people would be aw yes

look at CS2

[tulip crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/think-mark-invincible-omniman-gif-21416554

[manic ocean]

lmao wtf

[tulip crypt]

oh shit did they release a separate game entirely and try to get people to buy it

or did they replace the existing product with an upgrade

HMMMMM?

ok ill stop being a shitbag for like two seconds

[glacial solar]

Yo don’t ban me please it’s facts don’t get bh

[tulip crypt]

upgrading to ue5 is like a literal dropdown in the engine

the hard part is, of course, code running that requires ue4

we know they have done some experimenting with it in bug game

[glacial solar]

@tulip crypt please mate tell us what you think how to optimize squad in case of performance and bug fixing

[vivid crater]

im pretty sure they built it on source 2 completely

i dont think they actually just straight up ported csgo from source 1

[tulip crypt]

who the fuck am i to know

[glacial solar]

You are a smart customer you maybe know like a little mind map

[tulip crypt]

I know what I don't know, but I can't just say ah yes it turns out grenades sometimes have a memory fault that affects you for 7 business days

like the fuck answer you expect?

now shhhhh about that

[glacial solar]

I mean you know a lot

As we can read

[tulip crypt]

yes I am big brain

[glacial solar]

About coding and stuff

[tulip crypt]

thinky guy

I ain't debugging squad fam

[glacial solar]

Yea yea tell us why they don’t optimize then instead of selling us EMOTES

[tulip crypt]

ok bro

i'm going to say this again

one more fuckin time

[glacial solar]

Let’s go

[tulip crypt]

lol

[glacial solar]

Haha

[tulip crypt]

fuckin bot

animators don't optimize code

[glacial solar]

We got that point bro

[tulip crypt]

should the modelers and animators just

collect a paycheck

and do nothing

[manic ocean]

We most certainly did not.

[tulip crypt]

for 6 months until game faster?

[glacial solar]

We are asking the the PROGRAMMERS DEVELOPERS OF THE GAME OPTIMIZATION UNIT not modelers

The owner

[tulip crypt]

chat should OWI bleed money on making sure their employees do nothing until the ICO 2.0 thread is satisfied is this a good business decision chat

[glacial solar]

The king of the hill

[tulip crypt]

bro

you asked why they make emotes

who makes the emotes brother

is it the programmers

[glacial solar]

Modelers

[tulip crypt]

animators but i'll give you that

[glacial solar]

Pickachu and olympians

[tulip crypt]

it's pikachu btw

[glacial solar]

Dgaf

[tulip crypt]

put some respect on my little homie

[glacial solar]

Ok

[tulip crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-shocked-face-stunned-pokemon-shocked-not-shocked-omg-gif-24112152

[vivid crater]

tbf atleast some emotes were free

ill give them that

[tulip crypt]

so to recap

most of the things you're seeing teased right now: no programmers

starship troopers extermination? on ue5

who knows if that's what they'll do with squad

but it's an option

[glacial solar]

@tulip crypt would UE5 Be better for squad or not ?

[manic ocean]

When people complain about getting emotes or new maps instead of optimization.
It really makes it seem like people either can't or don't make the distinction between who works on what within a team.

[tulip crypt]

a pathway so to speak

[glacial solar]

Understood

[tulip crypt]

maybe. if the engine is the limitation on optimization or features, or if it comes with substantial workflow improvements, sure

it's obviously newer but in software that can go both ways. It might have more new stuff but it might also have more new bugs

so that's like one avenue

[glacial solar]

Ok why ever not comes by someone from OWI just to react here and stop this war of words

And desinformation

And we all shut up

[tulip crypt]

the other is that they might just work on some good ol fashioned bughunts like they did for 7.x whatever and you never see any hype or teasers about it because how the fuck do you share a teaser for "well we fixed this one thing that might save a frame" times 50

[tulip crypt]

what benefit would it give them

[glacial solar]

You’re right

[glacial solar]

Nothing but just like private in case of saying yo guys I inform you little things and I know loads of messages would get against like when you dropping new emotes and shit

🤣

[tulip crypt]

i actually was offscreen on ceegs stream yesterday holding him at gunpoint forcing him to leak littlebird screenshots

[glacial solar]

And ?

[tulip crypt]

i asked him about optimization and he said optimize deez

[glacial solar]

Ceeg a modeler or a dev ?

Or what’s his position

[manic ocean]

They're not allowed to really respond on discord.

They've spoken about not being able to say things they want to say in discord (the specific context was their interview about the ICO, where the dev was saying, "We can't just say, 'yeah this guy gets it,' but w really want to. We just can't."

[tulip crypt]

neither, he's community manager. just the liason between us and owi.

[glacial solar]

Ok ok

[tulip crypt]

I’ve said it a million and ten times but I promise you it wouldn’t show up in a poll if it wasn’t already on their radar. OWI is not blind, obviously people want moar frames and they know that.

It might take some time to figure out what they’re cooking on. Maybe we get some improvements next update. Who knows.

[glacial solar]

I think it really comes with the next update

But talk about this little bird and Cadillac Escalade with chrome rims

You think the modelers are from India or somewhere?

Like the design is just awful in a military game

[tulip crypt]

I think OWI probably largely does in-house work.

[glacial solar]

Hmm ok

[tulip crypt]

What’s wrong with the littlebird?

I assume you’re saying the suv looks to “clean” like everyone else

[glacial solar]

So you guys think a Lincoln or Cadillac Escalade with chrome rims fits even into PMC ?

[tulip crypt]

Yea actually

[glacial solar]

yea like my neighbors suv which is a district attorney

And he is going out with his wife to golf 🏌️

[glacial solar]

Idk man all the animations like reload and stuff from the Pistole it’s not like the old ones it feels clumsy and also the soldiers carrying the AK sideways on their back is just cheap

[tulip crypt]

It’s a real thing, it’s called the Convoy Escort Vehicle

[glacial solar]

Instead having them sideways under your arm pit attached with a sling

[glacial solar]

Let’s see soon

🇨🇳

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Maybe they rework it

But it’s funny man

[tulip crypt]

I’m sure they’re taking the piss, Ceeg is the one who shared that after all

[glacial solar]

But be honest

Ak sideways

💀💀💀

[tulip crypt]

🤷🏻‍♂️

[glacial solar]

Cmon bro … I don’t know shit about programming but for design I would be the man

[tulip crypt]

Well they can’t risk letting you in or you’ll find all the secret tencent documents

[glacial solar]

Nah man

But your guy said it’s a non profit

He must be delusional

Not even your dog won’t work for you without a treat

🤣🤣🤣

[manic ocean]

I didn't say it was non-profit.
I said that what you were saying didn't make sense.

[gleaming peak]

You do know that it's a real purpose-modified vehicle right?

https://dillonaero.com/convoy-escort-vehicle-cev/

[glacial solar]

Let’s see let’s see boissssss

When does it come out any news ?

[static oriole]

This is the corporate bs i cant stand in this world really. Idk what i really achieves other than maybe preventing "i told you so" abuse and it keeps everyone guessing so they stay here for longer, because maybe tomorrow they will revert.

[manic ocean]

It isn't about not communicating changes.
It is to avoid the devs actually getting into the trenches with people who call them or their work the "r-word" or fundamentally don't understand or agree with it.

It also avoids stuff like the Helldivers dev who told the playerbase "git gud" after they made helldives more difficult and people complained about it.

[static oriole]

But he was halfway right, the hd2 dev. Not saying hd2 was perfect or was hard for the right reasons, but yeah... I work in entertainment and when they complain that the instructions are unclear/they dont urdestand the game, i really tell them thats its on them to figure it out and they should git gud lol. Someone else would sugarcoat it into oblivion or even apologize, but those customers either dont have the mindsed and they wont return anyway, or they will come back with the right intentions. I see no issue with telling people if they are right or wrong when they express something.

[manic ocean]

The HD2 guy being right or not, wasn't the part people cared about. It made lots of people angry to be told that. Which becomes a problem for people who aren't going to care how right you are.

[static oriole]

And guess what, its usually the ones that are not doing great that are complaining about the activity we offer, looking for excuses to pin the blame on us for thwir shortcomings. Same as the majority here.

[manic ocean]

I mean, yes, but that still means they have to be careful about how they interact with the community. Even more so than if the opposite were true.

[static oriole]

Everything makes people angry when something doesnt go according to their fantasy. "i was doing 65 kmh in a 50kmh town, cops pulled me over and now i have to pay a massive fine. They are bastards and should be focusing on catching real criminals!" - suddenly cops are bad for some reason

[manic ocean]

it's not like people don't say stuff they want to say.
They just can't outwardly support someone playing the heel by telling people that are constantly <checks notes> dying to fall damage because of blind vaulting over walls and objects means that they are the problem.

I actually have a really funny example of what happens when devs do communicate directly to and with the community.

[static oriole]

My way of going about this is to acknowledge the problem, try to make it more intuitive, user friendly, try to address the issue without changing the start and finish position. Then if people still complain, you point to the changes and say this was done specifically for you, and we cannot make itdifferent without changing the point of it. Same happened with ico, it started out a bit hectic, and when people complained that it was actually hard to control guns, ie unnaturally fighting with the guns like some fishing minigame that has the fish stamina and line breaking point sliders without any explanations, they toned it down to a point that you can use it intuitively. Besides some small adjustments, its as far as the ico will go so skill issue is completely normal response.

[manic ocean]

Exhibit A:
Developer of the game releases patch for changes to a weapon. People shit on it based on patchnotes and don't bother playing the patch. Dev taps out on further changes, tells the people complaining he'll give them something to do in the grand campaign gamemode. Cancels the grand campaign gamemode a little while later. Still refuses to touch the weapon for balance purposes.

[glacial solar]

This is a video of a guy in media in this squad discord

ICO MOMENT IDIOTIC FIREFIGHT

[chilly crane]

Skill issue

He should have bipoded

And if he had aimed better he could have killed the guy

[stable canopy]

Yes, a game mechanic that is designed to make harder to aim is a skill issue

[manic ocean]

He was aiming without sway, dude just straight up missed, repeatedly.

Look where the dot is every time he fires.

[chilly crane]

He was aiming under the target which is good and tried to use the recoil to pull the gun up. But he straight up stopped and never let the recoil push up the gun lol. Skill issue

[stable canopy]

It's always "skill issue" and never the mechanic that literally makes it so you're soldier shoots around the target

[manic ocean]

The mechanic didn't do that in the video, he's very near perfect stability, he is just not good at aiming.

[granite phoenix]

Skill issue-ist clip ever

[stable canopy]

Yes, the gun bouncing around the person is bad aim

[granite phoenix]

It is

In this case not properly lining up his gun.

[manic ocean]

It is a skill issue when the player, despite being in perfect conditions, just can not put the red dot on a target and left click.
You guys are never going to beat the allegations posting these clips.

[stable canopy]

And saying skill issue is a perfect response I guess

[granite phoenix]

It is

If you can't be bothered to aim or just use the bipod you deserve to miss.

[manic ocean]

It doesn't even need a bipod, literally just put the dot on the target.

[spark bolt]

Very ironic to see ico apologists adopt the "skill issue" argument when they were the ones complaining about getting shot in the head too often a year ago. It was a stated goal of the ICO to reduce individual skill expression, and we all know it's because mechanically talented players were rolling players like poaw and nvvy back to main with the same skill that they now claim to possess.

[manic ocean]

It is failing to place a stable red dot on to a target and click.
He point of aim is not swaying.
That clip has nothing to do with the ICO or its mechanics, it is someone just missing.

This isn't some problem that requires 9th-Dan mastery of the ICO mechanics, hours of careful study of the wiki and youtube guides, careful adjustment for range and windage, along with 500 hours on the range to overcome. He just has to place the clearly indicated point of aim, onto the target. His view isn't blurred out, it isn't jerking around uncontrollable. The only way to make it any easier would be aim assist.

[chilly crane]

hes walking and shooting

[glacial solar]

Ok ok I will read every c*** sentence here I swear but before I read skill issue or not but you know that the m249 spits more lead then some of you barely know

So it’s interesting you bark SKILL ISSUE immediately but this irl with this gun from that distance on a healthy soldier like we assume no Parkinson US MARINE average joe missing an enemy

GAME OR NOT this is idiotic sway and dispersion welcome GUYS you welcome let’s get on it back again

This is no fun this no skill issue this is just Tardation lvl 99 and you who says he should be bi podded bruh no comment for you respectfully you always in between ICO and non ICO guys you change your opinion like the wind daily

HAHAHAHAH I am dead nvvy and poaw rolling back to main on god

[granite phoenix]

You just point and shoot.

idk what else to say.

[tulip crypt]

huh? I was busy playing squad

[glacial solar]

Yo listen don’t come me with stats … because yall here not you particular but 90% of you soya homeboys screamed when I show 35:1:36 as a SL INF only SL rifle

And they say wooooww congrats but you still not good because I dug down 2 radios 🤣🤣🤣🥛🥛🥛

Bruhhh I destroy radios I destroy enemies with kills and I win

@tulip crypt videos not stats videos bruv

Show us battle videos inf

[tulip crypt]

I don’t care about satisfying you

I was just busy playing the game bro

It’s not that deep

[static oriole]

Nvvy would make you cry even more without ico.
Alas, the bait is real.

[stable canopy]

You could show them the video of the game ans they still wouldn't believe it

[tulip crypt]

PreICO had massive kill ratios for inf, not sure what your point is there exactly.

[granite phoenix]

Vics were too vulnerable pre-ico. I wouldn't say it's about right now but it's not as bad.

[tulip crypt]

A good team will still make enemy vic crews life hell. Just takes more coordination now.

People love to attribute the loss of veteran players to the ICO but they had been dropping off like flies long before that due to other decisions from OWI.

[manic ocean]

This post reminds me that it is Tuesday somewhere in the world.

[tulip crypt]

Of course not. They're just seeking validation. Crazycow has never seen me complain about being headshot, just making shit up to fit a narrative that makes them feel cozy about their struggles adapting to the new systems.

[tulip crypt]

It's like they think this is my first FPS experience. I've been around since OG BF2, PR for over a decade. I was out here playing CS since 1.6, was Global Elite in CSGO. I don't even think that's that crazy of an accomplishment, but clicking heads is not a problem for me.

[manic ocean]

I think it creates actual confusion that everyone doesn't struggle with the mechanics like they do.

[tulip crypt]

I think even moreso they can't understand a more nuanced take than "it sucks :("

[manic ocean]

Some of them probably forget exactly what was said, and just see red when they glance at the avatar.

[tulip crypt]

Probably true

ICO definitely isn't perfect. There are several things that I think are downright broken and some that I think could use a tuneup. I'm not here to glaze OWI, I set the game aside a bit after 1.0 until 5.0 because I didn't like the direction they were going; and not just with Squad. God forbid I think that removing spam-lean and 180 flickshots is healthy for the game. There are other games that do that better, I'm not really playing Squad for that experience personally.

[manic ocean]

I think I've told @glacial solar I think MGs have too much recoil about 6 times now across all the different discussions.

[spark bolt]

Before the release of the ICO, I was playing more squad than the two of you guys put together. I admined for a few servers, won a few tournaments, and regularly enjoyed squad leading and teaching noobs how to play. This was my favorite game. While you guys were playing PR and not touching squad, I was putting in hours seeding and helping build competitive teams and server communities that made this game so much fun to play. I have scoreboards from scrims and even tournament matches that are way more impressive than a cropped scoreboard from a pub game. You may not have been one of the original ICO fanatics, but you sure have made it your mission to stick around and defend it at nearly every opportunity. So yes, I lump you guys in with the rest of them. It doesn't make a difference to me, this was a great game that had experienced players I could recognize in just about every server I jumped into. A year later, they're all gone. If you ask them why they stopped playing, it's because of the ICO. They have been replaced by noobs and underage idiots that play with even less teamwork than the average pub player did years ago. Imagine if Project Reality introduced an update that drastically changed popular aspects of the game and all the people from PR who you knew and enjoyed playing with uninstalled. That's what happened with squad, and it is because of OWI sycophants like you guys who would rather see the game's community die slowly than admit that offworld's implementation of the ICO was rushed and did not fix any of the gameplay issues it sought to address.

[manic ocean]

You have no idea about my play time pre-ICO.

The rest of those words are a rehash of the same old points:

• Game was amazing before.
• All my friends are gone.
• I am sad.
• Only new players and children play now.
• What if PR did something like this?

No one cares about your personal Squad journey.

[spark bolt]

post hours then, bud. I certainly never saw you around.

[manic ocean]

We have had this discussion before:

[spark bolt]

we probably have. Add on all of nvvy's hours, and you might have 2/3 what I put in pre-ICO.

[manic ocean]

There are literally ten of thousands of people playing the game globally.
You are vanishingly unlikely to have met any particular individual in the community, especially if you, they, or both of you play specific communities most of the time.

[tulip crypt]

They literally did do that in PR. It was 0.8, and it was Fuzzhead leading the change there too. People complained about the introduction of deviation to slow down firefights. Suppression blur was in the game for years.

Both games saw their popularity peak afterward. I'm not saying ICO is singlehandedly responsible for this, but it's not a dead game.

[manic ocean]

When I said I didn't care. I actually meant that I both do not care, and that it is irrelevant.
You are not special or noteworthy, your friends and your relationship with them are not special or noteworthy. I am not either. No one cares. It is a computer game dude.

[granite phoenix]

The game is dead cus I don't play it

[spark bolt]

people who took squad lead and were regulars on good servers always stuck out to me. If you were in SL comms on bella's, FaT, tactrig, sigtac, baja boys, riplomacy, TLR, BB or any of the other dozens of servers I used to frequent, I'd have met you.

[tulip crypt]

They have appealed to a wider audience, again not just through ICO but through marketing, and thus the player experience is diluted. This would happen regardless of whether ICO was part of the game if it still received similar growth.

I wasn't playing PR while I wasn't playing Squad, fwiw. Had real life priorities and stepped away from gaming for the most part.

But didn't spend what time I did have playing Squad because I think OWI's head was on backwards after release.

[spark bolt]

that's a good point but without experienced SL's the effects of this dilution have been amplified greatly. anyways, I get that you guys like the game more now. It's just that most people with over 1k hours disagree.

[granite phoenix]

Represented by one guy

[tulip crypt]

I get that. Obviously I understand and believe that some experienced players did in fact leave. However, my perspective is that ICO is more of a last straw for these players. I think it's easy to say "most people share my experience" by looking at it in a narrow view, reinforcing it like with the steam reviews segmented by playtime.

[manic ocean]

"All my friends play GE"

[tulip crypt]

However, I don't think the competitive scene would ultimately carry this game. It's just not a money maker. I think OWI made business decisions that ultimately made sense.

I don't have a problem that they appealed to Chinese and Russian players. Perhaps I am alone in this, but I also have direct experience in the gaming field seeing how fucking massive the chinese playerbase is and the potential to tap there.

[manic ocean]

Most people don't even view it as a competitive game.

[tulip crypt]

I think that ICO is flawed but for what it is worth that ultimately they made decisions that increased the depth of gunfights in the game at the expense of individual aim skill, and that they have made business decisions that will allow them to increase development efforts and given some time allow Squad to exceed the expectations we have had of it's development cycle for it's earlier years.

[granite phoenix]

The rate of changes is way too slow

[tulip crypt]

I think 2024 and 2025 are going to be sick for Squad enjoyers. There's going to be goofy shit for sure, I'm excited for WPMC while also recognizing they're probably going to be just as imbalanced as the other irregulars and probably see little play on our server.

Al Basrah remake lookin hot, excited to see more about it. New maps are desperately needed.

[manic ocean]

Irregular factions been making invasion pop.

[granite phoenix]

Well Insurgents can actually lose the defense.

[tulip crypt]

I am glad to have irregular vs irregular matchups back and hope that they will be fun again.

[granite phoenix]

I do think Militia is actually very good, just requires a little more thought.

Insurgents just suck.

[tulip crypt]

Anyway, all this to say, I can identify with the qualms of veterans and competitive players feeling like they got shafted. You seeded and adminned before, I seed and admin now. It's just a new generation of players, there are still some old heads and a lot of newbies. That's ok. I'm sad that it turned the game into something yall didn't want anymore, I understand the frustration, you paid for a product after all.

I do want OWI to continue to tweak infantry gameplay in ways that I think we could find a lot of common ground on. I hope that September's update comes with some tweaks just as each patch before it has.

[spark bolt]

well said, I agree and share your hopes.

I'm getting back into squad, the competitive scene is actually starting to get back together. I don't dislike all features of the ICO either, I just wish they weren't so stubborn about making adjustments to it. and ease up on the goddamn sales haha

[tulip crypt]

I'm glad to see some life breathed back into the competitive community. While I'm not exactly a big fan of moi, it was nice to see competitive shown to outsiders in a more familiar format.

[chilly crane]

pls turn down arming distance of the mk 19

[glacial solar]

Don’t ping me man ICO lovers are not allowed to ping me

You are stubborn and b***hurt when it comes to ICO

You guys say ICO is perfect

Idiotic recoil with Parkinson sway

This is the fun for you … you call out people skill issue till you met people who are against ICO Parkinson’s aiming and shut yo mouth with evidence of videos like skill full ICO moments where OWI would have get wet and use it for the next trailer

Plus we never said to remove ICO but change it in a more realistic way and not new player friendly 🤣 as they called it … watching each other using a full mag and then jumping to cross the street because you’re glued to the max since you are slow af if you accidentally press R

Change spastic movement … change blindness into vignette dimming narrow vision of suppression and add sway when you get suppressed and not constant (scope alignment time rtrdly high)

If you drop from 1m to jump a stair you almost 50% health 🤣 etc etc make AKM MG dispersion realistic

Fix this before you call OWI for yo hello can we get Nepalese special forces or the army of the king from 🇧🇳 Brunei

No we don’t need factions yet we need ICO 2.0

[chilly crane]

True. Just a little bit better handling on some guns. Atleast on the American M16A4 the marine rifle. It’s so bad.

[glacial solar]

Nutty boi how you always find a topic which is 3rd or 4th of the importance like m16a4

Like bro

AKM is rtrdly high

MG is insane bad

Sway recoil scope alignment plus SUPPRESSION is just bad

[chilly crane]

Bc everyone knows that they are. No need to bring them up again

[glacial solar]

The tha f gives a f for a m16a4 556 which is 100% more advantageous then any ak

In this spastic inf gameplay

Go to SQUAD media and watch everybody making edits for squad OWI but only ARMOR

I don’t see one bad ass player who played inf insane

@tulip crypt posted a picture which 36:1 kills

But he didn’t told us shit about it

I play inf I make also 20:1 sometimes even 30:something … only SL rifle But guess what this doesn’t mean shit I showed videos how I position myself and move exactly how they want me from ICO

[chilly crane]

20 kills and 1 death ? Damn u either play against the shittiest ppl or your quiet good lol

[glacial solar]

Let’s not get into this please this is a discussion goes nowhere

I believe that some of you are good some are not or just don’t know how to

I run a group I have players with a lot of hours and some without but squad is a team game I love the team work

And efficiency of the right movement and dicisions made

In situations

[manic ocean]

Your suggestions so far, have been variations on "just turn it off" with window dressing.
The things you want to change are the things that are the intended effects of the mechanics.
IE, blurry vision making it hard to see, and shoot at people. That is intentional, and was done to have precisely the effect you complain is wrong with the ICO. Same with the weapon sway; the thing you want it to stop doing, is precisely the devs intended it to do. You're supposed to take more time to aim, and miss more often, that isn't something that was incidental to a graphical effect, or unrelated game mechanic, that happening is intentional.

I also don't think people for whom pushing R at random is a serious concern are shielded from being told their issues are skill issues. Or people who struggle, absent almost any confounding factor, to hit someone at close range.

[glacial solar]

Blurry vision causes headache vignette style suppression won’t

Don’t be that smart Einstein … plus if you narrow your vision blacked out you won’t see enemy either plus add sway while being shot

But your sway or blurryness holds on for many seconds

People complaint since day don’t be that naive to think they didn’t

[stable canopy]

For some reason they think it's realistic for a soldier to have the aiming skills of an 8 year old

[static oriole]

actually nobody thinks its realistic

[glacial solar]

Still no fun no good mechanic in ICO to enjoy the game

No skill development nothing just pure random BS

[tulip crypt]

don’t ping me!
pings me

I don’t give a fuck about appeasing you @glacial solar

[glacial solar]

Send videos don’t bark too much with 30:1

Don’t get on our balls

Then

[tulip crypt]

No, I don’t care about you

[glacial solar]

Pickachu

Don’t get mad

[tulip crypt]

I know you desperately need the validation after being joked with that you suck for your clip

I do not

[glacial solar]

Me ? Bro I play better inf the 90% most of you all here

It’s not a secret

[tulip crypt]

Lol

[glacial solar]

Not lol

[tulip crypt]

See?

[glacial solar]

LOL how much you want

[tulip crypt]

You are desperate for validation that you are good at the game.

[glacial solar]

Why did you post a picture for the kiddos here 30:1

I was posting a video to fill yo mouth of ICO gameplay

[tulip crypt]

I was busy playing the game

[glacial solar]

And you talk about desperate

[tulip crypt]

Ah yes one screen of the game I had just finished after yall whined about how bad I must be is the same as your groveling

Kick rocks 😃

[glacial solar]

Pikachu boiiii

[chilly crane]

3yr old ahhhh comments

https://tenor.com/view/yapping-quit-yapping-yap-waffle-stfu-gif-2451949384988892352

[glacial solar]

Are you also a manga boiiii sorry man

[chilly crane]

wat

[manic ocean]

I don't think that.
ICO isn't about introducing realistic inputs, it is about creating a very specific outputs. The desired end-state may be closer to reality than what came before, but the realism isn't the purpose.
It is "Gun fight longer = Good," "More factors = Good"

[manic ocean]

Vignette style suppression didn't have the intended effect.
They wanted to do other things, but the one that worked was the blur:

[pseudo magnet]

the thing is, there is no realistic and/or immersive outputs w this gun fights like baron says on interview And stupid uncomfortable inputs. That's it.

[tulip crypt]

That's a huge copout answer.

It is absolutely possible to be proficient in combat in Squad.

There are several annoyances, certainly. But I can only assign skill issue to someone who believes it is impossible to do so.

[manic ocean]

Realism, or a lack of it, is not a major element of what they were trying to achieve.
It is a canard people use to talk about the ICO. In the same way I hate Miatas because of their exceptionally poor towing capacity (which represents an obvious failure of the design).

[pseudo magnet]

we talk about barons words about ico, when he says: "There are unrealistic inputs for immersive outputs". But in reality we have uncomfortable and unrealistic inputs and non-immersive outputs. If you guys play squad regulary on vanila pubs, you actually can see how it is going. Bluberries at 80% of time try to find enemy inf on tons of bushes (coz of textures resolution and shadows) and try to aim through it. No one try to suppres enemy, coz suppresion doesnt work at optic sights which use more than Non-magnify scopes. Guys are literally sitting in bushes and waiting enemy steps, in other way they will die from another bush. And problem is, that you nothing can do w that, because you cant supress this guys at all.

[tulip crypt]

Bluberries at 80% of time try to find enemy inf on tons of bushes (coz of textures resolution and shadows) and try to aim through it.
This is known as skill issue and happened preICO as well, and will happen as a result of an increased playerbase due to popularity diluting the player experience pool.

No one try to suppres enemy, coz suppresion doesnt work at optic sights which use more than Non-magnify scopes.
It still has an effect, but it turns out that shooting at somebody is not as effective as shooting somebody. Suppression is a special tool, not a win-fight button.

If your main concern is bush wookies, stop fucking walking 600m through forest and not having the coordination to fight in that forest.

[manic ocean]

That is pretty close to the opposite of my experience on public servers.
Suppression isn't something you need to do as a distinctly different activity from shooting to hit a specific target. It works regardless of the intent behind the shots. People are still willing to fire at people, and that definitely has an effect on them, even with magnified optics being able to opt out of the most extreme expression of it.

[tulip crypt]

In firefights if I am caught off by someone aiming at midrange I will stop, crouch, aim, and fire as soon as it will land near the target. Ideally I want to hit them, obviously, but I'm not going to wait too long to shoot so that I can utilize the aimpunch mechanic to knock their shot off. My steady will drop further while I recover from the recoil and I can then put followup shots onto them and usually start inflicting damage first.

I don't usually try to utilize blur while being a rifleman. Even the rare times when I take an AR or MG, bursting still gives decent suppression benefit but keeps you more accurate for followups that can actually kill.

Also, you're better off hipfiring in most forest fights.

[pseudo magnet]

I know how to play w ico and i know how to shoot when you staying and when you walking w ads. But there is 80% of players who dont even f where the enemies at, coz they need dozens hours to try to normal playing. And it maked low sence pre ico, but now feels like you playing with AI bots versus AI bots.

[pseudo magnet]

50/50 For me it is easy to see enemy in scope and hit him first

[tulip crypt]

dont even f where the enemies at
This happened preICO too. Nothing about ICO changed how hard it is to see players or find where the fire is coming from.

[manic ocean]

You will literally blur someone out with a short 3 - 5 round burst from an AR lol.
They are 15% per round with falloff starting 1m out. Anywhere close and they are going to have a lot of trouble seeing anything outside of a magnified optic.

[pseudo magnet]

but pre ico noobs had a chance to answer the enemy, now they are feeding tickets to enemy

[tulip crypt]

Sure, it's still capped at a maximum suppression that is below that of the more suitable rounds.

[tulip crypt]

preICO those noobs could get waxed by aimers just as easily.

[manic ocean]

Pre-ICO was definitely not known for new player friendly reactive gunplay rofl.

[pseudo magnet]

but no blur to scope guy, for me it's a big problem if we want cool firefights. It should be more variants to play effective

actually i can link my post bout it

[manic ocean]

Blur caps at 60%, while ARs and MGs cap at...125 and 135%.

[tulip crypt]

I think we'd all agree that a solution to scopes being immune to suppression would be ideal.

Apparently it is due to having nothing to focus on, causing motion sickness.

[pseudo magnet]

Why i cant to send link on my suggestion post in this category?

[tulip crypt]

You need links permissions. #rules-and-roles

[manic ocean]

you need link permissions

[pseudo magnet]

https://discord.com/channels/91294111071469568/1269669657976242266

there is my post bout optics

i think it possible make gunfights more cinematic and fun w this

[glacial solar]

You see every time somebody new come by and argue different not even like the bad islambek … they say immediately skill issue

Bro this is screwed here

[tulip crypt]

The bush issues aren't even an ICO thing. They are a patch 2.12 thing.

[pseudo magnet]

Only scaling resolution solving problem of visibility in bushes, but there is a perfomance issues for many others

[manic ocean]

Someone new coming in and dropping a video of someone missing a bunch of easy shots is not different from anyone else who gets told, "skill issue."

The common factor they have is demonstrating problems that are either self-inflicted (sprinting stamina down to zero before encountering an enemy, pushing buttons at bad times, yeeting themselves off walls/ledges/cliffs/3rd floor balconies) or self-produced (someone visibly unable to hit a target).

[glacial solar]

No no it’s not about videos rn

It’s about the fact that that guy above just tore down your and virus.exe imagination

Of suppression which you think people see only from that perspective

My videos showed that I do

But not average Joe or new player friendly types

If you take me always into this I can bet or let’s say we are 80% more skilled in this case because we understand the game

We understand the suppression we understand the sway and recoil but in general this isn’t working how he thought he made it

And vignette styles dimming narrow sight like very small and bursty would achieve the same thing with less way less headache and moments where you just have to wait like a blind person who got blinded from wonder pills when you just want to shoot somebody because you behind his back

There is so many situations where this doesn’t fit with the suppression it’s just pain in the arse to explain here in words

And you guys the first thing you replied to the guy was skill issue like wtf if we would go for skill in general over a half is not near like even with thousands of hours because you sit in your tank or what ever can’t play any other role …

[tulip crypt]

lol

[manic ocean]

I don't think it is a question of imagination if the devs tested other styles and saw that they didn't work. Especially not when the specific point is, "actually the blur doesn't work," after the hundreds of complaints from people saying the blur does too much. Both in the context of making it difficult to fight back, and influencing player behavior.

I would pointedly say a bunch of people who dislike the ICO do not understand the mechanics.
People constantly suggest changes to the mechanics that include the way the mechanics already work, or things already present ("stamina should affect sway" / "posture should reduce recoil"). Which is understandable given that most of the information is transmitted as tribal knowledge, but that still means someone doesn't know or understand it.

Saying skill issue as a first response is appropriate given the specific things being responded to. If I uploaded a video of myself accidentally holding down F and falling out of a helicopter as a result I would 100% expect people to say "skill issue" if I complained and said OWI needed to put in guardrails because I was regularly falling out of helicopters and dying.

[proven mountain]

originally the suppression blur was (and it is still, but somehow broken) a DoF blur - would be really nice to have it fixed, so things that are like 5m or closer to you are still in sharp vision

[light nexus]

PR had something like that I believe, where you can see up to 20m in front of you, but barely anything beyond that.. If something like that were to be implemented in Squad, it would make close quarters engagements far more decisive

[tulip crypt]

PR’s suppression blur was a flat filter

[proven mountain]

PR blur was and still is a flat filter, however the most recent one is just gradually blurring the screen, leaving the lower part less blurred - thus creating an ilusion of DoF blur

the intended blur that was planned for squad was DoF blur with close objects being not blurred, however this is affected by some kind of bug that is making whole DoF blur rather like plain filter blur - only your weapon isn't blur

it was meant to blur things beyond like 5m or so

[proven mountain]

anyway, plain blur or blur like in PR is still superrior to the broken DoF that we currently have

[static oriole]

This is textbook ico - i was the AR, but had a large area to suppress so you can only hear sporadic hits, but an mrap helped from another angle, so was another AR. Insurgents threw smoke and had to keep their heads down, only to get massacred by a flanking guy, but not everything is shown in this video. I ran throgh at least 4 sets of ammo on m249.. Not 4 mags, 4 complete refills and above.

[light nexus]

An engagement like this seems so fun, in all honesty..

[static oriole]

This is the point of ico. Ico will not improve teamwork, but demands it instead. One might argue that everyone has to LARP in order for ico to work, which is somewhat true. However if non-larp ex-comp players lose to the LARPing group, is it really LARP or just exploiting the game mechanics better (doing what ico encourages you to do)?

[stone zenith]

I would prefer a little less sway for most weapons

I like the concept of ICO but not the execution of the weapon handling

I especially dont like that foregrips do not change the handling of weapons at all

[manic ocean]

"However if non-larp ex-comp players lose to the LARPing group, is it really LARP or just exploiting the game mechanics better (doing what ico encourages you to do)?"

It's not LARP if you're actually more effective playing like that.
Doesn't mean some people won't hate it.

[tulip crypt]

Ironically there may not be any real life benefit to their use either, despite them becoming a gaming meme

[static oriole]

I thing the foregrip should reduce vertical recoil by 10%, but increase horizontal by 10% lol, just to fk with people. (And i think some other arcade game does it this way, or something, its never a net benefit)

[pallid mirage]

weapon handling is okay, just needs better suppression as PIP scopes are immune

[pseudo magnet]

my bro

[glacial solar]

Just a side question … did you served or shoot rifles for a living ? Like sports or something ?

[tulip crypt]

Nope

[glacial solar]

Not at all ? Like never

[tulip crypt]

Nah

[glacial solar]

Ever held a rifle in your hands ?

[tulip crypt]

I've held a gun

Never been to a shooting range or owned one

[glacial solar]

Like just to make like pew pew with yo mouth but a real weapon

[tulip crypt]

I just use finger guns, very effective

[glacial solar]

Ok interesting

[tulip crypt]

I'm not against it, I know a decent amount about firearms, but just haven't really had the need to do so.

Maybe if I was closer friends with folks who did own.

[glacial solar]

I can give you a tip idk how old you are and where you breathing but take a day and try it out

It’s fun and also you get experience

[tulip crypt]

Yeah, if the opportunity arises I would do it.

I just don't care that much to go out of my way for it.

[glacial solar]

Ok but when it comes to inf handling like a topic don’t mind to let it slip when it comes about inf gun handling

[tulip crypt]

🤷🏽‍♂️

[glacial solar]

Would be better for the others

Trust me

[tulip crypt]

I don't think the handling is purely realistic, but I also don't care if it is

[glacial solar]

One day comes the day and you will say islambek was right wtf

[tulip crypt]

Oh that day will never come, don't worry

[glacial solar]

Yea I don’t see you for long on a gun range

Many people can’t handle the pressure or sound

[tulip crypt]

lol

[glacial solar]

They just leave

So yea

[tulip crypt]

ok bud

[glacial solar]

Alright

[glacial solar]

Attachments have some advantages especially for longer ranges in case of resting a rifle or space but also scopes red dot sights you can engage targets very quick and aim easier and stay on them with both eyes open not even closing your eye

[stone zenith]

I meant foregrips no longer do anything in game

[glacial solar]

Front grip grippod … for your hand pressing the stock better into your shoulder by gripping it right on the 90 degree angle of handguard and front grip

Or you pull out the bipod below and rest your rifle properly

[glacial solar]

They don’t

Because they don’t want it

[tulip crypt]

All the wisdom I've heard is that VFGs don't really do shit and that handstops are preferable

[glacial solar]

Like nvvyyyy said they don’t care

They want pikachus and hellokitty on tanks next I swear no joke

[tulip crypt]

They offer better ergonomics but it isn't clear if that actually translates to any benefit regarding shooter reaction or accuracy

[glacial solar]

I’ve read it

[tulip crypt]

Add a hello kitty sticker to M1 Abrams or riot

[glacial solar]

Yes

[tulip crypt]

You're very gullible you know that Islambek

[glacial solar]

Acog aims same quick as a red dot 🤣

[stone zenith]

Foregrips do help with recoil control IRL but honestly its just better to use a handstop and train more IRL

[glacial solar]

Sorry English is not my major what means this word

[tulip crypt]

You seem to have a hard time detecting jokes/sarcasm

Probably language barrier related

[glacial solar]

It’s true you can search it up owi is thinking about it personalization for 4,99€

Hello kitty and some manga stickers

[pseudo magnet]

not at all, but only on a little, you can feel it w usmc m16, corpman m16 (scoped) less stabilized thn rifleman m16

[glacial solar]

You barely feel it be honest mate

I don’t feel it tbh barely barely

[tulip crypt]

It's unclear if they have any real effect. There was a (very small) study conducted which found no significant difference in regards to shooter speed or accuracy. There aren't many large scale studies on their use either.

There are probably benefits like ergonomics that might not translate to in-game markers though. Virtual character doesn't get hand cramps after all.

Nor have to worry about barrel heat.

[stone zenith]

I still think slightly less sway for foregrips would be nice

[glacial solar]

Try it yourself bruh don’t read too much

If I would give you a m4 with a short barrel a AIMPOINT and a front angled grip you would say ffs it’s so easy to shoot

[pseudo magnet]

it is not ghost feeling, you can accuracy actually see, how faster wite dots get closed w grip
It's more visible after running.

[glacial solar]

If I give you same rifle with iron sights and just handguard rail with sharp edges you would say do you have some gloves for me ?

[tulip crypt]

Wouldn't you just use the foregrip version whenever it existed? USA/MC SLs, USMC Riflemen all get to shoot better?

Do those classes/weapons really need additional benefit compared to other platforms that don't have foregrip options?

[glacial solar]

No we need less sway

And better scope alignment time

In total

[tulip crypt]

Sure whatever, but my point is that foregrips having functions only affects a few rifles that don't really need like individually improved mechanics

M4A1/M16A4 doesn't need the buff

compared to other nations rifles

[glacial solar]

Right

AKs ….

I wish I could post some videos

But I will get banned quicker then I can look

Just to show you running and gunning

Like facts

[tulip crypt]

Again I'm sure that VFG/handstops have benefits especially regarding ergonomics. But it doesn't seem like they massively improve shooter speed, recoil control, etc compared to without while still having good shooting form.
The platform itself is going to make a far larger difference to recoil than anything else.

[pseudo magnet]

imo, I think we need a faster stabilizing scopes after walking, its ridiculus when your stabilization at full stamina same time as stabilization on half stamina after running

[glacial solar]

@tulip crypt @manic ocean btw I will send you tomorrow … you on the hand held drone … over enemy point observing your friendly mortar fire and you get head bob from the mortar while droning 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[pseudo magnet]

So, just make less sway when you just walk. It's boring to stop every 15 meters to accuracy shooting when you WALKING

[glacial solar]

HAHAHAHA let’s gooo slowly the ICO 2.0 awake tell emmmm man

[tulip crypt]

I mean I don't need a video to know that's a bit silly

You're not the first to suggest that walking sway is a bit much rn. I've said so previously.

[glacial solar]

I will make a new suggestion to remove it it’s retrdrd af

Also the tracers comming completely from the side while a helicopter maxed out a big thing like this in game never flies above 160kmh or let’s say 200kmh … and the tracers are shooting complete from the side while shooting the PKM or 240b

[pseudo magnet]

It will be usefull to make New suggestion post w takes that most of us agreed

Coz this post turning into reddit thread

[glacial solar]

you see nvvy pikachu another one who don’t want a ICO removal just a fix

We don’t want ICO removed we need it renewed

Fixed

Properly with brain 🧠

[pseudo magnet]

properly with brain

[tulip crypt]

foregrips shit:

Subjects preferred the use of the M4 with the vertical grip, but its use did not translate into any
shooting performance improvement over the M4 without a vertical grip.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA612939.pdf
US army study (small, but it's something at least)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbRail-Dxuo

C-Clamp or Magwell grip generally perform pretty similar to VFG grip. There are benefits to using them IRL, particularly regarding comfort, but most of them don't translate in-game very well.

[light nexus]

Yes, in real life it is only really about comfort and ergonomics.. In game, I suppose it could be translated with quicker aiming times or quicker stability

[blazing sleet]

Vert forgrips tend to lead to lateral movement (if gripping it like a broomhandle) due to physics and pivot points but can be more comfortable when fatigued. Handstops/c-clamp is better for accuracy (recoil control & preventing oversteer laterally) but are more fatiguing over a long period.

Plus there is the added factor of physical control of the weapon system and where it's pointed in cqb. If you use a vert (again holding it old school) you have way less control of barrel direction if you bump someone and potential problems with retention etc if it's grabbed. A more forward c-clamp gives you much more positive control further down the barrel with your 'non-firing hand'.

[tulip crypt]

Could, but it would be somewhat inauthentic to do so, and again it primarily buffs factions that already have best in slot option for service rifle.

I would rather see a tuning pass on MGs, Battle rifles, etc or everything across the board than just make USA/USMC stronger for whatever reason.

[blazing sleet]

Also if anyone thinks the Devs could manage this level of authenticity or granularity after seeing ICO they are smoking crack lol

[light nexus]

Oh I agree, I am just suggesting a way it could be implemented, but not that it would be a good idea to do so..

Battle rifles and MGs do need their own rework, right now they are really, really awkward and they have no real identity. But I'm unsure as to what they could do to make them special

[tulip crypt]

Yeah, I'm aware that games often fudge it to give foregrips stats. But personally I don't mind leaving it authentic in that they don't really do anything (that can be translated to useful in game, at least)

And double that for something that could be perceived as a buff for the best factions in this regard, rather than bringing the worst in slot up to be more competitive.

To me it seems odd because all it's about is creating a more comfortable shooting position. People still grip the magwell in absence of a VFG for example, why would it be that different

Even trying to translate "being more comfortable when fatigued" to actually reducing sway at low stamina or something is sort of baseless, there's not much proof out there to say that it does actually convey a meaningful benefit in terms of accuracy/speed.

Because again, magwell hold is basically the same thing in a different position and less suited to hand shape. C-Clamp hold is similarly just a good hold position to maintain that contact with your shoulder.

The differences are pretty minute.

[blazing sleet]

Massive difference in a magwell grip and a c-clamp in terms of control of the weapon, massive. Magwell grip is just easier & more comfortable due to the lack of arm extension. It's sub optimal by a huge margin in terms of accuracy beyond the first shot and unsafe in cqb. However that's RL and no longer relevant to Squad

[tulip crypt]

Yeah, I agree there are tangible IRL reasons to use them.

Just emphasizing the recoil or ADS time memes we see in FPS games doesn't necessarily translate to real life well.

And vice versa, that those benefits IRL are harder to translate to FPS games.

[blazing sleet]

I understand, anyhoo no longer relevant post ICO since we moved to an RTS style lol

[tulip crypt]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Not much was changed on the metagame mechanics so I find that a silly comment but whatever

[blazing sleet]

Right back at ya

[tulip crypt]

Commander and HABs are the same thing. No more RTS than it was before.

You being bad at shooting doesn't make it not an FPS or more of an RTS.

[blazing sleet]

Combat itself now has more in common with an rts than an fps. And lol at that last comment

Good lord the level of delusion

[tulip crypt]

I wonder if you’ve ever played an RTS

Or even hybrids like NS2

If you’re just being exaggeratory then pop off king

Holding it as a serious conviction seems odd

It has some surface level mechanics like creating spawns, “paying” for units, but lacks other hallmarks of RTS games. Like yes it is real time and strategy can be utilized, that doesn’t really make it an RTS. And those mechanics existed preICO

As we talk about commanders getting tech trees I guess you could sure argue it can become more RTS-like, but again not really ICO related

[blazing sleet]

I'll try to explain briefly as I have little desire to waste time on this. As an infantry player your interface/interactions are being further hampered to cater for the lowest common denominator of player in a bid to extend combat duration whilst failing to examine all the root causes of some players rapidly and effectively eliminating others, ie movement, lack of teamwork, lack of awareness, lack of terrain usage etc. Essentially neutering lethality as a direct result of poor decision making because it's more friendly to a wider population. Therefore meddling is required, hence ICO. That's ICO in a nutshell.

[tulip crypt]

Sure, I can understand your perception and critique. I think that saying those attributes make it "RTS style" is perhaps a bit comical or exaggeratory. Which if it is then like I said, pop off king, talk yo shit.

I think that saying the FPS part of the game is so bad it might as well be an RTS funny

[blazing sleet]

Lol fair point I was making an admittedly slightly exaggerated statement about a design decision, but there is often poingnancy in humor. It's the removal of agency for the 'greater good'. A phrase that should chill the bones of any student of history. I'm glad it amuses, for many it's a massive degradation. Frankly, not to be unkind to anyone but you have to play at a certain level before it bothers you apparently judging by the inarguable acceptance of ICO by many, however new they are to the game, and their preferences are no less valid than mine. I just don't subscribe to the bullshit claim that non broken weapon handling = less teamwork, it's a moronic argument. If all the weapons were bloody hitscan on average the team with the best tactics/teamwork/terrain use etc would win. (Just taking the argument to it's logical extension).

Anyhoo good discussion, time to rack out

[manic ocean]

As you bring the support hand closer to a weapon's center of gravity it reduces the ease and ability to control the muzzle. It is something that was trained away from, like using the magazine as a monopod, because in the short term it feels better because it is more comfortable, but makes you worse at shooting and is less comfortable in the long term if you have to continuously manipulate the weapon.

[manic ocean]

You don't get banned for posting videos of weapons being fired IRL.
As long as nothing else ban-worthy is happening in the video (like filming inside a Neo-Nazi compound with people screaming "Heil Hitler" in the background) you won't get in trouble.

You should know that because you have posted videos of weapons being fired IRL before.

It won't matter either way, because for the most part, aren't meant to mimic RL weapon handling. So you might as well post videos of Star Wars Rebels firing blasters for all the good it will do.

[gleaming peak]

I suspect he wants to post combat footage.

[tulip crypt]

Can easily agree that humor can be poignant. No problem with making jokes in that manner.
TacTrig, spiritual successor of the same TG we both used to call home, is where I play. It's still not competitive squad, but it's not exactly low tier NPF pubbing.
I'm certainly not the best player in the server but I would say I'm competent at most roles in the game and can frag out regularly. This isn't my first FPS nor the most aim centric I've played by a long shot.
I think PR made similarly controversial choices to implement suppression and as v0.8 made controversial changes to weapon handling. I think ICO is not much difference in its reception in this regard.
I don't disagree that these styles of change doesn't inherently increase teamwork, I think that the metagame mechanics of supply, radios, rallies, commander have been stagnant for some time (while better than some previous iterations) and I believe have a more notable effect on the teamwork of the greater team; so to me I am unsurprised that those aspects have changed.
I think it has intriguing effects on gameplay, though. While it may not be the most realistic depiction of weapon handling from the player's perspective, it does emulate more authentic effects from bullets coming from the barrel in point-fire to scope occlusion. Many games don't even have bullets come from the barrel in third person POV, and recoil that could only be produced by supersoldiers with titanium bones. I think the detail and depth is interesting! I'd say it also reduced behaviors like lean spam and extreme flick shots, which are in my opinion negative for a game aiming for an immersive standard. I'm sure some will disagree with this, but it was truly possible to 180 on someone if they missed a first shot and kill them and I don't find that behavior very fun in a game with such low TTK and punishing respawn timers. It also affected the abilities of singular infantry, increasing the difficulty for example of a combat engineer to duel his way to a radio. While some say it makes the game "noob friendly" I'd actually say that the game is quite punishing for newbies who are also learning character management on top of an aiming system with more depth and difficulty than most shooters. It's way more possible for them to whiff entire mags than it was before too, and it's obviously comical and immersion breaking too!

I definitely agree that it's not the most well tuned system and there are several improvements I've advocated and will continue to advocate for, but I would not want to go back to preICO and forfeit the improvements and potential. Some changes suggested by the hardcore anti-ICO crowd are just too extreme and often come across as desire for crutches in a system they struggle to adapt to. I find the suggestion that it's "RNG" hilarious knowing that PR 0.8 had actual RNG and by comparison Squad's far more controllable and interactable than that was. But it requires character management which a lot of folks don't get, or enjoy. But that's the difference we've always had, not every game concerns themselves about the minutia of things like different reload times based on the state of the chamber.

[tulip crypt]

makes you worse at shooting
At least from what I can tell, this is debatable. There doesn't appear to be large scale study on it but there are small scale studies that do not seem to indicate significant difference. Perhaps more notable results could be found with longer rifles.
There are obvious benefits to the ability to maneuver anything when the pivot points are further apart like in this case, same reason why C-Clamp is popular without grips.
Again, all kind of nebulous to authentically represent in-game.

[manic ocean]

Gripping the magwell, along with vertical foregrips placed back as far as possible and collapsing the stock to the minimum length to create the most compact firing position you could was something that actually did reduce measurable performance across the board.

At the time the thinking was that if you could bring everything as close together as possible it would create a stronger position to better control the weapon. But it just didn't work.

[tulip crypt]

Certainly interesting, but I would want to learn more. My concern there would be that length of pull is already a known factor of the impact of rifle recoil on body mechanics, I don't know whether the forward hand position matters much for that.

And as with anything testing methodology 🤓

[static oriole]

i would assume that forward grip does help with less overcorrection since the handle from the shoulder is longer, but in turn you have to exert slightly more energy each time you move the weapon, compare do holding on to the magwell. So basically the equivalent of lesser mouse sensitivity in game. Gripping the grip completely vertical does set your arm further from the barrel, would then make it more prone to any horizontal factors. If you grip the front with half of your hand on the handguard and half on the grip, similar to angled grips, then you are close to just griping the handguard itself at that distance. Judging by logic and physics, never operated an assault rifle irl.

The differences are minimal i suppose, and its the familiarity of the operator that determines accuracy. Someone who trains without any attachments and is a natural talent can shoot better than a subpar shooter with attachments. Like having a fast car doesnt you make a better driver, you just go faster and probably crash it sooner. So its on the player to master the weapon system in order to be proficient with it. Case in point, i was playing sumari bala yesterday, ironsighted m249, got 7/2 as canada against turkey. None of the kills were with bipod and only one or was me crouching in ambush, the rest i was assaulting on the move in CQB or even chasing enemies around. Comparatively, odd situations still happen; the previous round i was prone, ADS with ak74 and magdumped a guy at no more than 10m without hitting him once despite me having the partial element of surprise, thats a rare occurence.

[light nexus]

I was playing as Brits once, and I moved to kill a guy who was essentially right up to my face, maybe 2 meters away..
I ended up somehow missing every single shot, and then getting blown up by his grenade, before he was killed by my squad and I was revived a few seconds after

Honestly if anything, it's funny that stuff like this happens 😂😂 I personally wasn't mad I was just laughing

[glacial solar]

ICO warfare

[static oriole]

Who asked?

[glacial solar]

Just facts raspberryyyyy

Nothing to be mad … it is how it is

Rasp and the berry …. Wobble and the gobble .. in ico

[gleaming peak]

Lmao what

[pliant pawn]

They could just copy tarkov gunplay, they got everything in ICO but not on max slider so the game is still skill based and not snooze fest.
Instead they manage to create an absolute dog water experience that is ICO. Even tarkov goes easy on recoil recently.

Don't even get me started on no purpose PiP.

[still sun]

V9 years ago , was one of the best Updates ever in squad history . Hopefully owi will see that the ico need some tweaks and make squad great again

[glacial solar]

V9 was insane

[toxic schooner]

Squad is an RTS first with first person aspects.

[tulip crypt]

Elaborate or face death

[toxic schooner]

You send blue and green ants to capture objectives and randomly skirmish until the one with a spawn point and greater numbers wins and the one without a spawn/inferior numbers.

Basically third person bc you're looking at the map 24/7

Use commander assets to remove spawns or ants to greater progress the game

[tulip crypt]

These are indeed funny but are not attributes of RTS genre

[toxic schooner]

I play Lots of planetary annihilation and it's the same vibe as sling in squad

You click on the map.and send units into an area

If you're playing squad to win you.are playing an RTS

[tulip crypt]

It is real time strategy because it is real time and I’m using strategy 🧠

[toxic schooner]

And individual choices don't really.matter unless.ur the SL

Only when it comes to clutch things like Radios and not getting assreamed on caps.

[tulip crypt]

These things are debatable at best and not attributes of the RTS genre

[toxic schooner]

You're using the superficial definition of RTS

The point of any RTS game is long term.strategy.

It's never the focus of individual units

It's the battle as a whole.

[tulip crypt]

Am I? I think perhaps that is what you are doing.

[toxic schooner]

As such squad is an RTS

Just stretches the visual definition a bit

[tulip crypt]

Define long term

[toxic schooner]

Total victory, not just individual gunnfights

Strategic stuff

[tulip crypt]

Why can’t I say that Battlefield is exactly that but that my units don’t listen to me

Whether we capture a flag is not an individual’s decision

[toxic schooner]

Bc a good shooter on battlefield will.run the server

[tulip crypt]

The ability for a player in an FPS to “run a server” does not make it an FPS or an RTS

[toxic schooner]

The individual is emphasized in battlefield

[toxic schooner]

I think it does

[tulip crypt]

This is a silly standard to use

[toxic schooner]

Playing squad now when you're 100.percent locked in as an sl all you think about is the next move in the long term for the game

It's the same concept in am rts

Real.time strategy

[tulip crypt]

I’ll repeat myself:
It’s real time strategy because it is in real time and I am using strategy 🧠

[toxic schooner]

It is dude

Especially is you Re playing commander

[tulip crypt]

It’s most definitely not. It is funny, but the markers you are assigning to make it qualify as an RTS are very dumb

Battlefield has had commanders

Was BF2 an RTS

You’re missing so many common tropes about RTS… like the strategy. Because what we employ are tactics. In RTS games the strategy is often things like researching and upgrading units, tech trees, etc.

You have to stretch a lot to actually fit into the RTS genre. There are some shared traits, sure. Commanders have screen with many dots. Commander tell dots go here fight.

[manic ocean]

All team games are going to focus on long-term strategy and the battle as a whole over individual units.

Under that definition, CSGO is an RTS game.

Even if individual pieces are powerful, or have special utility, people still only care about them in the context of how they can contribute to the collective effort.

[toxic schooner]

As an RTS player squad FEELS like an RTS when squad leading LOL

[tulip crypt]

Sure, that's fine. It can have an RTS "feel".

That doesn't make it an RTS. But sure, I get how it can feel similar.

[manic ocean]

That is a subjective thing.
It feels fantastically different to me, because in most modern RTS I don't have to cajole my units into building structures, or worry about them being grotesquely ineffective in their roles.

[toxic schooner]

Okay but you admit the strategic gameplay Is similar just with added inefficiency

Move units, coordinate firepower, play for the long game

[tulip crypt]

WoW is an RTS because it is real time and they use strategy and positioning

[manic ocean]

I most certainly do not admit that.
My feelings are pretty much the opposite; Squad feels like an FPS where I have to get people to build the spawn I placed.

[static oriole]

Doesnt feel RTS-y to me, but if you squint and look from above, it does look like an RTS. The difference in theory is that in RTS usually every unit costs some resources and the aim is to outresource the enemy if playing MP, with little regard to whats actually happening to said units. Again, in theory, individual player matters in Squad, because they have a certain value in the effectiveness of the squad itself, so if HAT/medic or whatever is killed, everybody suffers, compared to RTS where it seldom matters what part of the unit dies. (does not apply to every RTS, before someone goes "umm akshually".

[still sun]

Maybe we see some changes in the next Update, if iam not wrong , they Update will Drop in September

[glacial solar]

Source ?

I hope so bad it will come soon

But as much as I hope it’s always like the same .. not talking about adding stuff but more about game changes

Inf combat CMD assets also like CMD assets to bomb enemy radio 25tix is more important than bombing a whole pile of enemy soldiers freeing the sector or compound and move in

[steady token]

I feel like real time tactics would be a more appropriate description for the fob building and rally pushing squad leaders. If your team is being capped at your defensive point unopposed I would argue that is as close as it would come to a "strategic" defeat.

Tempo and OODA moreso than a preconceived strategy that is then implemented.

[urban lintel]

I was terribly against the ico when it first came out and hated it so much that I genuinely stopped playing the game for what nearly 6 7 months, I tried to adapt and hated every second

Since then I saw that there was some changes albeit minor, however I came back in and these changes were enough for me to feel like the gameplay was actually decent enough to adapt to. I have now adapted completely and I feel like when the ico works it works really well and feels really nice however there are times where it feels absolutely horrendous. For example the hip fire. ITS SO UNBELIVABLY INCONSISTENT. One moment you can be absolutely destroying everyone you see at quite far hipfireranges with ease
The next thing you think your aiming at a player really close and miss all your shots and die.

Next is the fall damage
Way too high and needs to be lowered

Stabilisation and sway could still be less but honestly I'm fine with it but I do think having it be effected so much by even crouch walking needs tweaking down a bit.

Also the flinching/aims punch from being shot at is also oddly inconsistent, sometimes you get aim punch and sometimes you dont. I've had it where I'm mag dumping at a guy and he's able to make 2 shots and hit both killing me
I've had it where I've had it where people mag dump me and I have either no aim punch and am able to kill them easily or the complete opposite

[manic ocean]

Hipfire is consistent. Wherever your barrel points the bullets will go, but the barrel is not lock to the center area of your screen and the amount of play it has depends on the weapon.

The fall damage is deliberate, they made it like that to stop players from dropping from those heights and have a penalty for doing it anyway. The solution is to either stop doing that, or just accept that dropping 2.5 meters will cause problems.

Aim punch has a diminishing return on follow-up shots and is affected by how much suppression is on the player. If you sit and mag dump someone continuously then eventually they won't experience any aim punch at all.

[glacial solar]

@manic ocean thank you for your 101th explanations about ICO he just described it’s too much too high

You jump from a small height loose a lot of health which makes the wobble gobble spastic shooting and holding rifle even higher

The punishment is way way too high

[manic ocean]

It is high because you're not supposed to be doing it.
It's like running into a concrete barricade and complaining that it hurts too much and they should make it softer.

[light nexus]

In all fairness, the fall damage punishment is way too exaggerated.. At the very least, the damage you take should be reduced, whereas the distance you take fall damage at can be kept the same. I remember falling from a small ladder, and I took more damage than I would from any of the rifle in-game

[glacial solar]

But it affects the aiming while the aiming in ICO is complete trash so it’s doubled in a split second

That’s the point here and not that you try to fly like assassins creed

[manic ocean]

Then stop doing it.
This is something that you have absolute control over.

[glacial solar]

Nah man you jump from a meter and you loose 2/5 health ofc sometimes you know exactly if you jump from that you will die because they made it like you weigh a ton and the gravity will crush you

But it’s about small very small jumps

And your aim will facking die

ICO spastical perfection

[manic ocean]

You don't take damage from falling only a meter.
You don't take damage from things you can climb on.
You only start taking serious damage from heights that would clearly be bad ideas to drop from.

[small mesa]

I have the same opinion about hipfire. Close combat has been the most frustrating experience since ico dropped. @manic ocean you eventually will need to accept the flaws of this system. Bullets comming from the barrel has nothing to do with the fact our soldier cant keep a gun straight.

[static oriole]

exactly, i always know when there is a possibility of hurting from falling, and even then i squint a bit and usually its not too bad. Besides, there is always a medic in the vicinity.

[winter glacier]

Agreed. Its been nearly a year. I still like the game but the stamina sway and suppression sway penalties are simply too high and need to be reduced. Aside from the unreasonably high weapon sway I'm mostly fine with the rest of the ICO.

[tulip crypt]

The hipfire is certainly not ideal, but it with practice it is actually quite potent. It is possible to fairly reliably burst down opponents up to 20m. Just headshot some poor sap in a window from across the street a few minutes ago.

It’s harder to use than before, but stronger when used effectively when your opponent might spend time ADSing to aim.

[static oriole]

somehow people are willing to learn to aim in all olther games but squad, but its the same - you move the mouse to where you want to shoot 😄

[small mesa]

I wonder why

[tulip crypt]

Eh, it happens with other games too. Plenty of people bemoaned the changes to accuracy in PR, plenty of people disliked Red Orchestra because of the more hardcore/less casual aiming systems.

[unborn forge]

are we still on the "ico haters git gud" trope...

[manic ocean]

I don't see the hipfire system as flawed.
It does exactly what it was intended to do; forcing players to engage with the ADS mechanics for precise shot placement, offering the ability to snapfire shots at the cost of accuracy, preventing the tape-on-monitor/crosshair overlay workaround, offering a means of differentiating various weapons/weapon archetypes which might be more or less effective at close ranges in the absence of other mechanics that might represent that (weapon size/weight affecting mobility, weapon collision, etc), while still offering a measurable skill that players can practice and express.

This specific part of the discussion is about bullets coming out of the muzzle because I really doubt anyone will notice sway when they're hipfiring and the recoil is something he seems to be able to manage if he's occasionally using hipfire to good effect.

[manic ocean]

I think this is more a case of, "Here is something you might not know or understand."

Muzzle awareness being required/rewarded in a game is relatively novel and likely feels weird to someone who isn't used to it. The idea that your weapon can point somewhere other than the center of your view is something that comes naturally in other contexts, but is basically a violation of natural law in most FPS games. With Squad being a fairly extremely implementation of it, in that it allows you to fire while sprinting and send rounds straight into the deck on your left side.

The part about people dying to fall damage is 100% git gud though.
You know it causes damage, so just stop doing that roflmao

[tulip crypt]

the trope rings true across many discussions

[unborn forge]

Nah its an uncreative strawman

[stable canopy]

The people that say this are the ones sitting in a bush the entire game

[tulip crypt]

It's not a strawman, it would be an ad hominem 🙂

Strawman would be misrepresenting your opponent's argument, usually to make it sound outlandish or simplistic and easier to defeat than their actual argument.
Skill issue is just an attack against the person behind the argument.

[tulip crypt]

Can't speak for all of them, but if you really have to hold onto that cope I'm sorry for you

[unborn forge]

"A strawman argument is a type of logical fallacy where someone distorts, oversimplifies, or exaggerates an opponent’s argument, making it easier to attack or refute"

Saying all disdain for ico is a skill issue is a strawman

[tulip crypt]

That’s not exactly true but if you’re set on interpreting the term that way I guess I can’t stop you

[unborn forge]

think whatever you want dawg, generalizing ico critique as a skill issue is a tired drawn out strawman. it was already old the 2nd week of playtests and here we are a year later

[static oriole]

If i reverse the issue and say, "i really dont like spray pattern in CS because people who learned it can kill me quicker - the pattern should be random" - wat will people say to me?

[unborn forge]

Idk what your point is, but if you're insinuating I want to turn Squad into CS2 no I dont.

[manic ocean]

I don't think all criticism of the ICO is a skill issue, leaving out the the bugs and things that need adjustment, there are also things like subjective expectations, or the systems being opaque.

That being said, regularly dying to fall damage, trying to win exchanges in CQB by sprinting around corners, missing every shot because you've drained your stam to zero, getting suppressed and killed by a vic because you're re-peeking where you just fired, accidentally reloading in danger areas or situations, etc are all complaints about the ICO that have the player's inputs and decisions as the root cause.

They are things that aren't problems to everyone, because most people have figured out in the past year not to toss themselves off the 3rd story.

[unborn forge]

Yeah dying to fall damage isnt ICO's fault. That doesnt mean the new fall damage makes the game more engaging in whatever way. It made the maps more 1 dimensional and didnt improve teamwork a lick

[manic ocean]

Not meant to improve teamwork, but instead reward it.

[unborn forge]

Sure, whatever, it didnt succeed in its goal

[manic ocean]

I think it did, given that the primary goals were the thing you just complained about it doing.

[unborn forge]

What, chokepointing a lot of maps like some COD tier map design?

[static oriole]

I also dont understand how fall damage makes it 1 dimensional, you can still climb up to wherever you want.

[manic ocean]

The devs reduced mobility by taking away parkour and increasing fall damage on purpose. That wasn't incidental to some other action, they wanted the guy running by himself to be stuck crossing chokepoints while groups of players could get better angles by buddy-boosting and buddy-matting (or having a medic with you heal everyone).

[static oriole]

• if you coordinate with a medic (teamwork), you can get people healed after a fall, so some ninja maneuvers remain... if you utilise teamwork.

[unborn forge]

Ok we're full circle, so it was indeed intended to encourage teamwork...

It didn't. I dont see blueberries stacking up to buddy boost over a forehead height wall

[manic ocean]

Reward, improve, and encourage are not synonyms.

[unborn forge]

Tomato tomato. Rewarding is a form of encouragement. But ICO changes are less of a carrot on a stick and more of just a stick like its zazen or something

[small mesa]

There is no reward mechanic on ICO. Only punishment if you dont play as designed.

That is why it is stupid.

[unborn forge]

Its inherently designed to inhibit your ability to play creatively

In a game that was built around emergent gameplay thats just bad game design

[manic ocean]

You guys bailed on complaining about the mobility changes real quick*. If there was no reward in being able to parkour and drop from greater heights, then why would anyone care if it was taken out.

*But then again, it is now Tuesday.

[unborn forge]

Dawg all im asking for is balance. Being able to save a fall off of one of those apartment buildings by grappling the balcony was absurd and removing that was understandable. But strawman away

[small mesa]

And there is you, coping about all negative aspects of ICO. No one is complaining about parkour being gone. The fall damage is just stupid, you cant even fall from what i would define as a small height.

There is no reward, there is nothing to improve about.

This "Aha, you changed your argument" makes me feel like i`m talking with a child.

[manic ocean]

The reward is that players working together can still do most of the things you could do before the ICO, minus parkour, the fall damage changes can be worked around by having 1 person eat the full damage, and then act as a mat for others so they don't take damage. The same way you can buddy-boost.

[manic ocean]

RELL did change it, it took 11 minutes for him to go from caring about ICO movement changes, to agreeing with your statement that ICO has no reward for teamwork. Somehow all those cool and creative approaches and flanks lost their utility as soon as I pointed out that people working together could still do most of it in after the ICO.

I think that's the record for the, "I hate the ICO for the opposite reason I said I hated it before"-switch.

[small mesa]

Poaw, no one does that. I dont remember a single time someone used themselves as a mat.

[manic ocean]

I do.

[small mesa]

Well, then i dont think you represent the average player. People just dont play like that from my experience.

Someone who died from fall damage dont think "Oh, i should been more careful or asked my team for help to surpass this obstacle", they reaction is "Really? I died to this".

From my experience it feels cheap. An avoidable, but unfair death. Of course people adapt over time to it, but just because they adapt it doesnt mean it isnt stupid to begin with.

[manic ocean]

And stuff like that is why people say "skill issue" to a lot of the complaints.
A: "X sucks, I hate it, devs should change it."
B: "You can avoid X by doing Y."
A: "No."

[unborn forge]

Youre projecting. My stance has always been that we should have pre ICO fall damage, I dont want CS2. I have always been open to limiting grappling while falling. And I have always advocated for doing this without limiting which walls you can get over and which buildings you can get on top of. See the many times I have suggested in this discord to allow mid air grappling, but only if your -z velocity is below a threshold so you cant grab while falling.

[manic ocean]

I didn't say anything about CS2. I said you recognized the reward inherent in the old movement system, then immediately turned to denying that those same rewards were available to players working together in the ICO.

[unborn forge]

You were saying rewarding is not synonymous with encouraging as you were nitpicking my statement on how the ICO didnt encourage teamwork. I said they were synonymous.

[manic ocean]

I don't think dying to a 3 meter drop is "unfair."
Death in Squad also represents a state where the player-character can't fight any longer, and a falling 3 meters onto solid ground is a good way to get there. While it is arbitrary.

[tulip crypt]

I've had randoms in my squad ask to help cushion their fall.

Most people definitely don't think about it, but creative play is still certainly around.

[manic ocean]

You said "improve" teamwork first, "encourage" came later.
I said they wanted to reward teamwork. Which being about to mantle over higher walls to avoid choke points certainly is.

[unborn forge]

Again youre nitpicking. The point was OWI wanted to affect teamwork with these changes. I understand theoretically how it is intended to help teamwork. In practice it doesnt.

[tulip crypt]

There are more advantages now to being proximally close to others, in particular your Squad.

Many just advantages that existed prior being exaggerated.

There are still blueberries that will pick marksman and disappear into the forest. Player behavior cannot be molded, at best influenced.

They have made it harder for these players to be alone. Unfortunately not all players are good at reacting and moving together, but when they do, they are often much more effective than alone.

[manic ocean]

It isn't nitpicking if it is the entirety of your position.
A "They failed to do X."
B "They weren't trying to do X, they were trying to do Y."
A "X is Y"
<We are here>
B "X isn't Y"

[unborn forge]

It was done at the expense of making the game a chore for everyone

[tulip crypt]

Counterpoint: I do not find it a chore.

[manic ocean]

Nor do I.

[unborn forge]

I do. And so it goes on

[tulip crypt]

We aren’t the ones making arguments about “everyone”’s opinions.

[manic ocean]

At the very worst there are few more, "oh no my plans have been foiled by teammates not working together," moments, but more often than not I'm on the side that benefits from those situations.

[tulip crypt]

If you’re just going to play fallacy defense then you should at least avoid obvious fallacies

[unborn forge]

They did fail to improve teamwork. I explicitly said they were trying to improve teamwork. Idk if ur just tired or what

[tulip crypt]

By whom’s measure did teamwork fail to improve?

Did it fail because of the mechanics or because of the players?

[unborn forge]

Straight to the whataboutism

[tulip crypt]

This isn’t whataboutism. I’m directly addressing your argument.

Please learn fallacies if you’re going to haphazardly use them to defend your arguments in place of actually having a good argument

[static oriole]

People die 3,4, 5... 10 times a round. One or two lessons should suffice when you get killed or maimed by fall damage. If they do it over and over again, they are, by definition of Vaas, insane.

[manic ocean]

And I said they were trying to reward teamwork, not necessarily force improvement of teamwork (which is both impossible and out of line with their design philosophy of their being no wrong way to play, just less and more effective ways).

[unborn forge]

If you are insinuating that the failure of ico in improving teamwork is because of players yeah, ofc. Thats the whole issue is they tried to force gamers to have social skills by making the game less fun. Its a whataboutism if youre trying to deflect criticism from the mechanics towards players.

[tulip crypt]

I’m quite literally asking you questions.

You are assigning “deflection”.

[unborn forge]

Where in the changelogs is there any positive reinforcement? Clearly they have drifted from encouraging emergent gameplay to railroading players into a playstyle

[tulip crypt]

What does emergent gameplay mean to you

[manic ocean]

The patchnotes or changelogs are not going to include in-depth narrative play-by-plays of how changes are going to alter emergent gameplay of a live match.

Even if they did, I am pretty sure you would just ignore it.

[unborn forge]

The literal definition. Player driven gameplay behaviors/loops that develop without any intention from the developers

[manic ocean]

The positive reinforcement is that working together means you can do the thing you want to do, instead of not being able to do it.

[unborn forge]

Whoosh. The point was that there is no rewarding going on in ICO it is all punishing undesirable playstyles

[tulip crypt]

That is not the definition of emergent gameplay.

Emergent gameplay is also not a dictionary term, so it doesn’t have a definition.

[manic ocean]

The positive reinforcement is that working together means you can do the thing you want to do, instead of not being able to do it.

[unborn forge]

"That isnt the definition"

"There is no definition"
Youre too much

[tulip crypt]

Even using your definition, I’m unsure how you intend to apply it to pre versus post ICO.

[tulip crypt]

Both are true. Your description is both inaccurate and your snark is incorrect

[manic ocean]

I really don't think the devs thought about players using other players or vehicles to reduce fall damage rofl.
Also you're not railroaded into not using mobility to gain an advantage, you just need more than one person to do it.

[tulip crypt]

What situations preICO do you think are examples of emergent gameplay that do not exist today?

[unborn forge]

Oh? I thought buddy boosting was what they were going for

[manic ocean]

They were going for that, but never said anything about the opposite, nor deliberately placing vehicles to use as boosts.

[tulip crypt]

I think calling Squad’s gameplay as “emergent” is quite funny as it is not at all in the category most think of when talking about emergent gameplay.

[unborn forge]

The issue is the philosophy of ICO. Trying to direct gameplay is the opposite of encouraging emergent gameplay.

[manic ocean]

Do you think the gameplay was wide open before the ICO?
Because your precise complaint, about fall damage, pre-dates the ICO by several years.

[tulip crypt]

Honestly I think we’re just in buzzword hell right now.

It kinda seems like he learned the word recently and wants to use it wherever he can.

[manic ocean]

Expeditiously
TI.gif

[tulip crypt]

I was hoping to have him elucidate what he actually means, but he just keeps circling the drain.

[unborn forge]

Sure whatever. It was how they described their own game in their marketing material. But ill leave yall to stroke eachother

[tulip crypt]

You’re the one saying it right now.

Do you just like to parrot what you see or do you ever like to form your own thoughts?

[static oriole]

I dont see the point in arguing, as ico applies to both teams. And the team who plays better, ico or not, wins. It would be more of a debate if one faction didnt have ico... Like some mods do it, (which shows complete misunderstanding of what ico is as people here say trained soldiers know how to aim, but in the mod only special forces know how to aim, which then actually means that normal units are 5yo with parkinsons and whatnot according to the mod itself and that reinforces the fact that normal ico vanilla soldiers are actually alright. Its not even a full circle, its a triangle that feeds itself. 😄 - and with this much contradiction and convolution that people themselves dont realise that they are somehow praising and hating on ico at the same time, the only conclusion is skill issue.)

[manic ocean]

At the risk of my homework being copied:
I think you could call Squad's gameplay emergent. While there are broad intentions in how the game plays and obvious guard rails in place to prevent certain behaviors, there are a lot of complex interactions and tactics going on that I don't think the devs designed intentionally.
As an example, combat engineers creating miniature vehicle barricades with un-built barbed wire.

[small mesa]

That is true, at the end of the day the game is fair by the fact that both teams have to deal with Ico mechanics. There is no scenario where one team has a dominant advantage over the other. That being said, i dont find any pleasure at dealing with these mechanics. Neither they make me feel like a better player. They are a chore you have to deal with in trade for "teamwork".
Playing with mods its not happening for me. Squad always was a community game for me and i rather not play at all than play with randoms every match.

[tulip crypt]

I think you’d have to stretch the term quite a bit to get there. Emergent gameplay is generally used to describe games with a focus on the players interaction with the game world and flexible win conditions

[delicate pike]

It shapes the gameplay, same as any mechanics.

It doesn't curtail the emergent aspect of gameplay; it just removes some of the crutches that were shaping the gameplay for the worse and enabling gameplay styles that really shouldn't have been enabled to begin with.

People can still do pretty much everything they want to; it's just that a number of those things now demand a greater level of skill, or different ways of achieving the result desired.

[manic ocean]

I was using a different definition entirely.
"Complex interplay between simple systems and player actions."

I think it is a bit of a stretch even then.

But it certainly isn't calling Squad an RTS.

[tulip crypt]

Sure. It’s a bastardization of the term from the get, though

[small mesa]

Idk who started this trend of calling squad a rts. It is like the 5th time i see and it doesnt make any sense.

[tulip crypt]

Minecraft redstone for example is used for emergent gameplay; building complex machinery—that may have nothing to do with “winning” the game (eg killing the ender dragon)

[delicate pike]

There's plenty of communities around mods if that's what you want.

But plenty of people much prefer the game post ICO (myself included) and find the gameplay better for the changes that ICO made.

[small mesa]

Redstone was a mistake.

[manic ocean]

Building a superfob.

That is a joke.

[tulip crypt]

tee hee

Squad has a very rigid win condition

Have more tickets

[small mesa]

Yeah, i`m aware of that. Impossible to deny that the community is dealing with ico better than me. Maybe if i played PR in the past or started playing squad only after the overhaul i wouldnt be such a ico hater.

[tulip crypt]

Many emergent gameplay systems have extremely flexible win conditions. Space station 13 being another example. It is jam packed with simulated content that can combine and react in a number of ways, allowing a multitude of ways to accomplish your personal goals

[delicate pike]

Just play the mods.

It's giving you what you want in various flavours. Everyone gets to be happy

[small mesa]

For me the real enjoyable/rewarding squad gunplay will always be the old one.

[delicate pike]

There's a mod for that

[small mesa]

The five stages of ico hater:

denial
anger
bargaining < this is where i`m
depression
acceptance

[small mesa]

It is like a said, i have a community that i love to play with and they play vanilla. I`m not swaping that for a mod.

Playing with the boys !!

[delicate pike]

It's a circle for some.

Look around and you'll see some familiar faces; they keep coming back around, either angry the game's not dead, or with new versions of old arguments.

But if you're seriously having issues adapting, I could give you some pointers.

[small mesa]

I already adapted, in fact i`m doing great. But i find a lot of the changes annoying to deal with nonetheless.

[delicate pike]

Consider it some sacrifice for the match as a whole being better.

But that's my 2 cents

[tulip crypt]

I find that as usual the hardest part of squad is not guns but getting people to open their ears.

It’s relatively easy to run a high kd if you have aimskill and utilize all the mechanics

But getting 8 randoms in a squad to stop camping their lanes while the radio is being dug down is suffering.

[static oriole]

Its not just that, its also what kind of a person you are by default. RTS like CoH/RA/AoE turn my stomach, when one has to build barracks and spawn units out of them while gathering resources. What i like is RTS where you get a set amount of units and micromanage them to beat the other player, like Combat Mission. Turn based also helps. I also like X-com grid based stuff. Total War is also an "RTS" that i enjoy immensely because i dont get units out of thin air, but instead have control over who is in the battle. I will never be able to really enjoy, let alone play the claassic RTS effectively. Some people are just the opposite.

[small mesa]

I always tell new players that squad is a game where you always want to take unfair engagements. Let the enemy get out of position and when attacking hit them where it hurt the most.

[tulip crypt]

To an extent, yeah. I think parts of that start to change as player experience comes into the picture but it’s easier to capitalize on pub team mistakes

[small mesa]

I still need to play total war 2 eventually. That game is on my list for ages. I just dont like the fact that it has too many dlcs.

[static oriole]

Medieval, shogun, rome, warahmmer? Which 2, there is a lot of 2. 😄

[small mesa]

Warhammer

[tulip crypt]

Then you probably want TW:WH3, not 2

Unless you mean that you have 2 in your library already

[small mesa]

Oh yeah, the 3 is the lastest one. My mistake.

[tulip crypt]

Ever seen or heard of WARNO or its predecessor Wargame?

[static oriole]

I dont like anything past shogun2 on the grounds of the units have unified HP instead of the dice rolls per individual soldier.

[static oriole]

Yes, tried to play the first one years ago, then about 2 months ago i got red dragon just to remember... Uninstalled about 10 minutes later, i literally cannot. 😄

[tulip crypt]

Haha, aww. It seemed like it could have fit for you based on your descriptions.

[delicate pike]

Try Pharaoh.

Has issues, but more fun than WH for me at this point.

[delicate pike]

Screw those

Try Regiments, or the upcoming Broken Arrow.

[tulip crypt]

Broken Arrow I’m fairly certain is heavily inspired by Wargame.

I’ve been keeping an eye on it.

Never heard of regiments. Sounds like some WW2 or British shit.

Ew, single player only? Is that right?

[delicate pike]

Cold War, SP only.

Single dev, and honestly does a ton of things better than WARNO (which keeps trying to make ypu fihht MP battles in SP) IMO

[tulip crypt]

At least its cold war but ew

I haven’t played WARNO, used to play a lot of Wargame Airland Battle and Red Dragon.

It seems like a rehash of those games

[static oriole]

Men of war is the closest i get to a classic RTS and still enjoy it. Mainly because it has so much detail that it keeps me interested for reasons unrelated to actual gameplay.

Alas, we digress.

[tulip crypt]

I wouldn’t say WG is classic RTS fwiw

There is no resource management, it’s pretty much all micro. You steadily gain buy points and units bought later in the game usually reinforce or support your initial forces

[static oriole]

Its not, but still not for me, hence i try it every 5 years. 😄

[tulip crypt]

Ye understandable

I’m not sure what lobbies look like these days but it was a bunch of fun back then.

[static oriole]

Games that im sure wont suit me i dont even try, except if my friends insist on playing... And currently we are on once human, and i have no idea about what the point is, but eh, we get some laughs.

[delicate pike]

Less that and more WiC

[urban lintel]

Hey guys
Remember when they did actually reduce the fall damage because people were dying from falling off of tanks

That was how bad the fall damage was at launch of the ico

[urban lintel]

I think my issue is with the hip fire is that it's sometimes very hard to tell where your barrel is actually pointing
I'm absolutely dreadful with hipfire at close range but better at longer ranges

Your character sometimes has the weapon naturally looking like it's pointing more to the left than it actually is

Having the bullet coming out of the barrel is fine and actually I really like that it's just figuring out where the barrel is actually pointing is sometimes the difficult part especially with weapons with longer barrels
The ak for example I can hipfire really well with most of the time but the m4 for example I'm terrible with

[glacial solar]

Incredible how loads of people comming by complaining with facts and these particular guys defending it like no it’s the best solution ever

Poaw you helluva lyrical player here but don’t come with this scientistic BS here ICO sway is ret4rd3d everybody knows even you …don’t tell people it’s fine and skill issue

[steady token]

It would be helpful if OWI defined "teamwork" and then showed us the data they were collecting that proves or disproves their intention. The fact that in their most recent QnA they wanted to Barbra Streisand the entire terminology of ICO and think about it "in it's core parts".

Which is helpful to break down a large idea into smaller parts- but if you don't expound in that idea that is a strategy to shut down the use of the word ICO... Because it's embarrassing... Inferring that OWI didn't get the intended result they wanted...

[pseudo magnet]

game full of bugs its sucks

[pseudo magnet]

Sadly he wont. He just will continue writing 1000+ symbol posts about how hard to fix ico and make up stories bout how teamworked his public teammates. Looking at the number and size of his posts, I get the impression that he is more engaged in writing them than playing the game he is discussing

[glacial solar]

The F‘rs came by yapping so much about skill issue immediately when you criticized ICO… the other one posts 30:2 kills in end screen like showing look at me I am the ICO Olympian 2024 🏳️‍🌈… I showed even for myself how I engaged a whole squad alone in ICO and how well I managed it. OWI could use my clip to show these INF whack players how to play inf rifleman. All that crap this guy said about stamina sway sprinting cover etc I managed it. But it’s soulless it’s not fun it’s not only about fun it’s not even towards realism not saying pre ICO was but this is even running away from realism complete different direction. Ret4rded spastic wobble gobble shooting … full health full stamina complete health BI PODDED and having dispersion from a MG like your eyes are crossed

None of them posted a video how they „play“ like if it’s not SKILL ISSUE they defend it like crazy I swear like somebody paying them 2 dollars for every sentence

[tulip crypt]

Damn, he really out here still salty about that statline

[small mesa]

You discuss with him, i`m too busy laughing.

[tulip crypt]

wobble gobble

[gleaming peak]

Why is my sweet pride flag in there

[tulip crypt]

Take a wild guess why the reactionary guy might bring up the 2024 olympics with a pride flag

[gleaming peak]

It's only fun if he explains

[tulip crypt]

He can barely explain his disdain for ICO, he's just a rambling fountain. He's just going to slip around and hint at it. He brought it up in the first place to get around the fact that he can't just say slurs

[glacial solar]

Still missing inf videos of a ICO Olympian… btw you getting butthurt ? I might can’t say that because I hurt some of you ..

[tulip crypt]

im so butthurt im crying everytime you post

😭

[glacial solar]

Cry more then … it shows clearly people have major opinion about this ICO 2.0

Same guys raging in scientistic style calling people out with skill issue

While you Olympians you aren’t it either

[tulip crypt]

abwooo hoooooooo ill nevew stop cwying whenever islambek is hewe

[glacial solar]

Pikachu boi … keep crying
Mate just wait for a ICO 2.0 and we will see how mad you gonna rage in here

[tulip crypt]

bro im gonna run out of water to cry with, please stop posting, oh my god im getting dehydrated

[small mesa]

imagine replying to a discord post, but the qwality keeps getting wowse and wowse.

[tulip crypt]

heheheh

[tulip crypt]

oh noooooo I'll be even better at the game

somebody save me from this terrible faaaate

[gleaming peak]

I couldn't care if they change it or not, just means adjusting again.

[delicate pike]

A. Cut it with the personal attacks, seriously.
B. If you really don't want anything to do with the ICO gameplay, why not just play something like GE that removes it entirely (and that way everyone gets the gameplay they want).

[tulip crypt]

no no, let him keep discrediting himself with the memes

it's very funny

i'm wobbly gobblin it up over here

[small mesa]

Let him cook, this is content.

[static oriole]

ico revert is just around the corner guys

[glacial solar]

Why OWI didn’t asked us like this in the beginning ?

With out any teaser or test version they just changed it and guess what if it would be so perfect there barely would be someone complaining. But these Olympians coming by immediately responding how good ICO it is and that it don’t need any changes.

[gleaming peak]

They did give us a test version for the ICO

[glacial solar]

I mean how tarded you really have to be like for real to think that ICO current is just perfect for squad like no changes just to leave it like this ?

[gleaming peak]

I'm actually fairly sure they gave us several.

[glacial solar]

We never said to remove ICO @delicate pike but to fix it because this isn’t it it’s far from “new player friendly” and all that crap

There was or is a thread about ICO MG dispersion

These scientist here texting and texting about that it has to be like it

And it’s realistic

Same persons … we can name them

[tulip crypt]

There literally were several public playtests

[glacial solar]

When we asked them if they ever. Touched a real gun just touched not shot in serious they replied no … and then they switch saying it’s a game it’s not realism

[tulip crypt]

One can certainly argue the feedback from them was not handled well, but there were many public tests.

[glacial solar]

They wanna bark here about ICO INF and sway and dispersion man cmon what are those times 2024 Olympians comming out of holes and talking about inf combat tactics and skills

[tulip crypt]

like, 8 of them

[glacial solar]

In a fricking video game

[gleaming peak]

Dude you should talk to the armour players.

Will fight tooth and nail over ammo capacity.

[glacial solar]

What should I talk to them .. armor makes 100 killls nowadays 90% of you barely makes 5 inf kills

I can bet my shit rn

[coral arrow]

will ico 2.0 help me get more then 15 fps? if not idc 😭

[glacial solar]

Most of you are just whack in inf pre ICO and ICO

I bet

[coral arrow]

bros betting his shit rn??

wtf

[tulip crypt]

[glacial solar]

My D then for you

[coral arrow]

i cant see it bro

where it at

[gleaming peak]

I am referring to how they argue way harder and over more trivial topics than the infantry players.

[glacial solar]

Inf got left behind

These nvvy tardy even compared it with tarkov

[tulip crypt]

lol?

[glacial solar]

like he said squad is getting more players by making ico "hard" to shoot

while on hand hand they talk
about new player friendly

[tulip crypt]

you can literally search "in:#1230644232029737010 from:nvvy" for EFT, Tarkov, more players and you will find no statements

lol

[glacial solar]

your friend then

[tulip crypt]

lol put your schizophrenia down and call who you mean then

[glacial solar]

these tardies comming by switching our words like we want ICO removed

i say it 100 times

nobody ever said it

but its firustational to not fixing ico

[tulip crypt]

being criticized for bad takes on ICO doesn't mean they think you think you want it removed.

[gleaming peak]

Is Nobody in the room with us to testify

[glacial solar]

not removed … reworked

[tulip crypt]

it'd be a strawman if they did, and you're strawmanning to make it as if anyone has made that argument

[glacial solar]

thats what the majority wants

and not fucking new emotes

[tulip crypt]

nah, give me a basketball dunk emote

[glacial solar]

You already know my stance

[tulip crypt]

so I can dunk on you harder

⛹🏽

[glacial solar]

You have more like a personal dispute here with me

[tulip crypt]

nah I think you're hilarious

[glacial solar]

While we put it down and talked about ICO changes.

And you agreed even

[tulip crypt]

but you keep talking shit at me instead of who you mean

so I'm gonna troll you about it

[glacial solar]

Because you a type of guy 2024 Olympian posting kill streak here talking everybody down about skill issue when I stuffed your mouth with my video you where silenced

That’s it

You are used to these gaming fellas who bark a lot on internet and they don’t bring nothing to the table at all not even to a game

You suck in inf and talk with OWI devs about inf

[gleaming peak]

Ngl Islambek, I don't really care if they change the ICO or whatever, just means adjustment for me, it's just hard to take you seriously when you talk about "spastic wobble gobble aiming".

[glacial solar]

There is plenty situations to describe ICO

The negative side

If you scroll up don’t read mine then because I am not a Olympian 2024 like nvvy and poaw

Like these scientist talking shit here

You can read people complaining about some specific stuff

What is it @gleaming peak ?

Sway … recoil …

Suppression

[tulip crypt]

you wish

[glacial solar]

And I started to talk shit here because these tough guys talking everybody down with in the end of an argument saying skill issue .. bro trust me man 90% of them here they suck trust me

I mean all I can offer come join let’s play I show you in any case

[gleaming peak]

I don't care much either way, it's just hard to take you in particular seriously because of the way you phrase things. "Spastic wobble gobble" for example, is a comical description.

[glacial solar]

The point is some of them are not even allowed to make critics they just don’t know shit

[glacial solar]

Referring to the points what is it ? What people want to change

[tulip crypt]

I run public squads fairly frequently. Some of the people in this thread have actively played with me and can comment on my supposed skill if they want. I don't care at all about proving it to you lol

[gleaming peak]

I've been in games with Nvvy on occasion, don't remember him doing particularly badly.

[glacial solar]

Alright what should I say ? If I say I run squads 100% of my time in squad

I run CMD

I run SL

[tulip crypt]

OK.