#Defense vs offense

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

modern oasis
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Defense has every single advantage on offense.
Offense has to contend with
-horrible ADS walking speed, and sights misalinging. It feels like they're not trying to keep the gun stabilized at ALL.
-Having to pause for 1-2 seconds before being able to shoot, while the enemy has all the time in the world to blast you.
-On maps that have a dense forest, it is super easy for defenders to lie down in bushes, have reduced recoil, and just camp there.

This isn't realistic.
I don't think this is fun.
Attacking fast does nothing, the objectives are very small, and easy to switch sides to defend against flanks.
it just, doesn't feel like Squad.

trim perch
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Because of the movement penalties introduced on the micro scale with (ICO) that all adds up in results in dismounted infantry squads being generally slower. This then means that attack HABs need to be placed closer. this makes attack radios more vulnerable. If you have a Squad that has a rally ON the radio and then responds as soon as it is burnt then a front line attack hab can be sustained. Maybe OWI wants us to cooperate with APCs and IFVs more? Either way- I am hoping that an incentive to attack is created at any scale in the current meta.

modern oasis
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agreed!

hoary pike
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At this point attack vs. defense in AAS is no longer an issue. Attackers also have advantages, such as knowing where the enemy is and planning attacks accordingly, having the initiative, Mortars/Artillery, etc.

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What does no longer work are braindead assaults from one direction (also usually the most predictable one). And this is a good thing.

modern oasis
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I’ve had effective smoke screens from mortar fighter, and on target, it still doesn’t work

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I don’t know why, but I blame it on ICO making it impossible to move and shoot

hoary pike
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It is also perfectly possible to move and shoot without optics, just running into combat with zero stamina does not work anymore.

true turret
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But you have the ability to shoot at all times bar vaulting, jumping and moving while prone. Idk why you take 1-2 seconds to shoot.

north anvil
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Some also restrict vehicle squads to 4 people so you can't even try to organize a proper mech infantry squad by yourself.

flint wigeon
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“Isnt realistic” Sorry but last checked the strength differential needed in combat is 3 to 1 for for the attacking unit and 1 to 3 for the defensive even more if we are talking a dug in enemy

true turret
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But a trained specops seal soldier can click heads irl and can go 1v20 eeeasily

vital iron
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I have to disagree, everywhere I play I see defense flags getting rolled constantly on RAAS. Armored assaults followed on by infantry, usually with Artillery/mortars mixed in and there’s no chance. From time to time it breaks down into a siege but even then as long as the attacking team isn’t randomly throwing away radios/armor the siege outlasts the defenders supplies and it’s an easy roll

olive blaze
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Defending is a bit too easy atm, problem is any change to ICO actually buffs defenders.

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Since the main problem with it atm are moving a little messes up sway (doesn't matter so much when moving in).

trim perch
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Defense flags get "rolled" when every blueberry walks off because they get impatient waiting for the enemy to show up. I primarily play defense as a pub SL due to this issue. Empty caps make teams cry.

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The enemy isn't showing up because they are so FKING slow on foot plus they might be making the strategic calculation: "maybe an attack isn't worth the energy expended". this is the key.

true turret
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Exactly, defense flags get rolled because people walk around instead of waiting in ambush. Once one guy goes down its just a snowball.

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As for attacking, maybe just get more reinforcements or give up the attack. Games can be won on defense.

trim perch
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OWI should implement a bright flashing strobe push notification whenever the defense point is being captured uncontested. Maybe people would turn around then

modern oasis
true turret
topaz dust
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Or even anywhere close to it

north anvil
topaz dust
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Yup- read accounts of IRL mech infantry squads and they're burning through LAVs all the time, because sacking a vehicle is better than losing a soldier. If you did that in Squad it'd be asset wasting.

hoary pike
topaz dust
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You shouldn't walk while ADS'd anyways tbh

native copper
topaz dust
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Lots of invasion layers the only real way to win is armour dominance, and when you only have a little less armour than the enemy that's not reliably possible

copper tiger
copper tiger
# true turret But you have the ability to shoot at all times bar vaulting, jumping and moving ...

There's this idea that people have, which reaction/arcade shooters have really pushed, that one should only take kill shots where one can guarantee that one will hit the enemy.

It's a load of refuse, of course; and in a squad it's valuable to take that shot even if you can't guarantee a hit, because suppressing the enemy will set them up for your squad/teammates to take them out.

But it's a significant adjustment to make, especially for people whose idea of attacking seems reliant (if I read the original post correctly) on gun duels and reaction speeds.

trim perch
copper tiger
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It's hard to even begin to explain just how different the ideas of attacking are between players in this.

You don't need quick ADS or super accurate reaction shooting to attack; but they do form the bedrock of attacking in arcade shooters.

And the problem is that this creates the impression in many people that it's the only way one can attack.

true turret
topaz dust
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That strawman is getting quite impressive

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Y'all do realize, at the end of the day you do occasionally need to shoot people in an FPS right?

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Unless you are literally 24/7 logi/heli/mortar/vic driver

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Circlejerking about how good your suppression is won't clear enemies off the point so you can cap

true turret
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I was playing MG (i do it often just to try and use it for supression in different scenarios, as it was intended to), more than half of the squad was shift+W, and still got 4 kills, 1 death (could be revived, but SL ordered respawn), 8 downs. Squad had 45 kills, 22 deaths and 60+ downs. We were always either pushing or defending a flag or radio. I have no issues with the rest of the squad mopping up players that i suppress.

true turret
topaz dust
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Did you watch EiTS?

olive blaze
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Some vics should be cheaper, APCs need to be quite a bit cheaper.

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The Chinese ZSL, Russian BTR-80 and the Turkish PARS 50 cal/MK19 are good for the 5 tickets.

topaz dust
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I personally would be in favour of removing ticket costs from anything less than IFVs

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(and indirect fire vics)

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There is no good gameplay reason for a logi to cost 5 tix when what really matters is denial of asset

olive blaze
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I really don't think so, they can still be very powerful for shuttling infantry and providing kinds of fire support. Technicals, MRAPs and transport trucks should be quite a bit cheaper though.

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And a logi costing tickets is fine, means it's impactful to lose it in two ways, the enemy can choose which based on the game state.

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If it costed nothing you'd just have logis abandoned all the time with NO reason to kill them.

topaz dust
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That's a fair point on the logi hostage scenario, maybe they would need the bleedout timer lowered in that scenario

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Maybe keep logi tix but remove for transport-oriented vics

olive blaze
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They're fine at 5 tickets for all of them tbh, since they're all capable of setting up a HAB with an ammo crate and some supplies. They're all sidegrades of eachother.

true turret
topaz dust
# true turret Semifinals, your point being?

"but if i dont hit and supress instead, they will steal my kills :(" - average arcade shooter enjoyer

Should be pretty obvious from watching comp that comp squad players are not CS players

olive blaze
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Techies should be 2 (SPG techies also), 30 cal MRAPs at 2, 30 cal APCs 3 and 50 cal MRAPs 3, 50 cal open top APCs at 4. Helps a lot for transport and vic balance. IFVs can be a bit more granular.

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Likea ZBL with HJ-73s is 12 tickets while a BMP-1AM is 9, even.

topaz dust
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Granular tix cost for IFVs would be nice yeah

olive blaze
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Like the BMP-2M could be 15 tickets with some small-ish buffs.

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Give it 1500 health (with the current damage resists) and uncap or greatly decrease the overheat of the AGS.

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MTLB-6MB is pretty bad and could be 8 tickets, BMD-1M at 7. Stuff like that.

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With more granular respawn timers too.

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Would give a lot more freedom to units too.

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And player choice, there is now a reason to play the weaker vics in a unit. Like you choose MTLB-6MB over the BMP-2 for Mil because it's cheaper but still great vs infantry and thinner skinned vics.

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You play in a different way because of that. Like you'd play a BTR-80 different than an 82 because it's half the price.

true turret
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Would you, tho? Would people try to die 50% less if it was 2 tickets per death?

topaz dust
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Ticket costs create metagames, and, to the chagrin of the milsimmers among us, metagaming is how most people play

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Even if they want to play otherwise, once they get slapped in the face with ticket losses and lose games, people will change their behaviour

native copper
copper tiger
# true turret Would you, tho? Would people try to die 50% less if it was 2 tickets per death?

No.

But risking 10 tickets to potentially support 9 is certainly something that weighs on the mind.

If you lose an APC (assuming you don't lose the crew) to save a squad, that's a good trade IRL, but in game that's a net loss to the team.

More to the point, it also shapes just how much threat a squad or kit is allowed to present to vehicles, simply because of the ticket value they represent.

unreal mauve
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This is only a problem now bc GE got taken down and they dont have a mod that babies them with weapon recoil

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“Wahh why does my random turkish rifleman not have the recoil control or stamina of a tier 1 operator.”

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Why does Squad have to have arcade-y cod style guns

topaz dust
unreal mauve
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No iTs jUsT tOo hArD tO AiM

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Which is why it will forever be a skill issue

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Aim better and learn how to cut a pie youll do alot better in attack engagements

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You know if you suppress the enemy itll actually make it harder for them to aim? Making it easier for your team to push up close to them, and take the point.

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Thats kinda the whole idea around suppression

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You guys cant grasp not being john wick tho

topaz dust
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truly braindead take ngl

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you have no idea what I play like

unreal mauve
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Says enough

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Ape

topaz dust
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Did I?

topaz dust
unreal mauve
topaz dust
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Nice gaslighting attempt. Next time I wanna perform middle of the pack in high school debate class I'll hit you up.

unreal mauve
# topaz dust you have no idea what I play like

Hey i will give you this. I dont know how you play specifically. Maybe you are a logi driver and everything you do is for the team, regardless, anyone complaining about post ICO aim has a skill issue

olive blaze
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The Turk gun is the worst because it didn't get the battle rifle buff the G3 got.

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And the faction itself being infantry focused should really have their rifle be the best.

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So it should really be at least 10% better statswise than the G3, maybe more.

unreal mauve
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Yeah the turks are a joke

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Me and you agree on something aiden

topaz dust
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no shit, funnily enough when you stop being intentionally ignorant then you can easily find common ground

olive blaze
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The M60 needs to cost less (relatively) to other tanks and have a better reload. Their LATs (and maybe all factions) need to be in direct combat so to not overlap with MG/Marksman/Grenadier and the Turks need more APCs (or more MRAPs you can't get shot out of if they remove the PARs and add new assets).

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Like the M60 is 12-13 tickets while the Leo/Chally is like 15 and the T-90/M1A2 is 16. Works to make 1-1 trades worth it and allows you to reach even faster on smaller things.

unreal mauve
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Git gud its shrimply that ez

hoary pike
olive blaze
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afaicr.

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And the close range one shot should be removed imo. Just buff the guns up a tiny bit more (or even leave them) and they're good.

hoary pike
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Yeah it would be better to make it kill in one torso + one limp shot at all distances rather than this magically oneshot switch at <20 meters.

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Right now battle rifles are good at CQB but bad at longer ranges, while it should be the other way around.

olive blaze
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It is straight worse. More felt recoil, slower ADS, higher sway at lower stam.

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And the battle rifles are good at close range and long range because of the longer 2 shot range, at that sort of distance you aren't going to shoot 2 shots without waiting for the weapon to reset.

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At mid range they aren't as good because they're more likely to get the two shots off quicker.

hoary pike
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Well even at long range assault rifles are better imo because you usually can hit more bullets faster than the BR player.

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And the damage advantage is hardly noticable.

modern oasis
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what in squad is realistic?

unreal mauve
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“Wah i cant hold down the trigger and shoot laser beams”

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How is “im bad so i need handicaps” a valid argument

modern oasis
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it is physically not possible holding “w”

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You didn’t answer my question aswell

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I would think this until showed evidence otherwise

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I want a realistic game

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I don’t think ICO improved that

flint wigeon
# modern oasis Have you ever tried to walk while ADS? You can’t shoot, your sights just move so...

Which the sight also do in reality, have you ever tried walking and shooting at the same time?

I have, you are not accurate at all which is why you dont do it unless you sub like 20m and you still miss most of them and that on 2/3 SAAB LOMAH targets in an armoured infantry platoon with Elcan DR 1-4x on 1x zoom

A major issue in said movement drills are actually people stopping or timing shoot with their feet to try and hit the target instead of just putting lead down range when the sight picture aligns

flint wigeon
flint wigeon
native copper
unreal mauve
# modern oasis I want a realistic game

Guess youll just have to go and shoot a gun in real life finally. All these internet Gravy Seals nowadays think they know everything about war because they have played 100 hours of ArmA. You want call of duty and guns that dont have any recoil, because you have a skill issue, you just dont wanna say it out loud.

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Sorry that you cant dolphin dive into rooms with akimbo G18s

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Go play cod if thats what you want

modern oasis
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compare this to in game

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i've shot guns before

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full auto ones too

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I've walked and shot before

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I can actually stablize it somewhat

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it feels like in the game they don't try to at all.

unreal mauve
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Youve gotta aim it

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While you are walking

modern oasis
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yeah, just like how I would hold it steady with my arms

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in real life

unreal mauve
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Im sure this is all a hard concept for you to grasp, but just like irl, YOU GOTTA HOLD IT STEADY

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Not the game😂😂😂😂😂

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Whats with all these chimp experiments where they teach them how to use discord? They cant make their own server for testing?

modern oasis
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i'm just saying something that I think could be improved about the game

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I don't want it to be COD

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if i wanted it to be COD, i'd go and play it

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I don't think its a skill issue.

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i'm good at games

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maybe its the FPS affecting scope sway

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but y'all don't need to be jerks about this

unreal mauve
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I dont like the stamina

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I will agree with people on that

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But aiming and stuff feels good to me

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I think alot of the criticism you receive will be from people who are also afraid of the devs caving into the criticism and reverting

flint wigeon
flint wigeon
modern oasis
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skip thte AK-47

flint wigeon
# modern oasis skip thte AK-47

  1. You do know there is a difference in PSI pressure between war ammunition and what you buy over the counter top? While you can buy something like M855/SS109 it is stupid expensive compared to the normal shit

  2. There is a perspective difference as you are not looking down the sight in the video it far more noticeble when looking down a fucking top compared to over the top

  3. He is fucking missing at 50m XD

  4. Most "war" rifles feature heavy barrels to resist heat that throws off the center of mass in the weapons towards the front. There is a big difference between shooting some suped up civilian rifle with lightweight parts and fancy muzzle brakes that costs out the ass and using a standard issue rifle that probably is older than you and features a flash hider

hoary pike
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Why dont people get that "realistic" weapon behaviour in games does not lead to realistic firefights or player behaviour?

proud torrent
olive blaze
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There's some snags with how it works, like how you can't control your move speed to keep the sway low or that point fire is way too finnicky.

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You can work with the systems but it doesn't feel intuitive.

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It was like how irons were basically worthless for months because moving an inch lost you sight alingment.

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I don't think weapon resting should be added (too strong for defenders). We need a slow walk key that drops you to max stability speed for playing cover, a point fire alignment key (maybe have an MOA penalty for guns doing this and a sway penalty for scoped weapons) and overall buffs to bad weapons and weapon classes.

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It just feels way too awkward to defend or attack in any situation because neither of the systems (sway, point fire) feel (or really are) properly controllable.

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So your most "in control" strats become tapping WASD and lean spamming on corners for defending or run and gun spraying for attacking.

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Also the trade windows in this game are FAR too long, any close range fight has a massive chance to go 1-1.

proud torrent
olive blaze
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Then improve the netcode as far as is reasonably possible or do something else. It's really awful and is part of the reason I hate playing infantry.

deft elm
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Hit detection is client side

olive blaze
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Yet AP for vics is server side?

deft elm
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Yes

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It’s weird hybrid

olive blaze
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It really can't be too hard to fix this up for infantry, it's really bad.

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You can't hold doors, you can't breach, you can't even properly fight close quarters.

copper tiger
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Getting things to work for 100 player lobbies is...an emerging artform

olive blaze
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I understand it'd be more taxing but there has to be a way to make it work for close range.

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The trade window and client side hit reg isn't bad for long range but for close range it's tear inducing.

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Could there not be a way where it is server side for even 25-40 metres?

copper tiger
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It's not too bad unless you're in a duel; at which point things have already gone sideways

olive blaze
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And if you're the better player you should come out on top instead of you both losing.

copper tiger
hoary pike
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The hit reg works fine for the most part. It only becomes problematic with high ping players.

copper tiger
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There's also the clock problem

olive blaze
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Don't get me started on HE hitreg vs helis.

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Damage raw works out to a 6 shot kill with autocannon HE, good luck killing them without 20+

hoary pike
deft elm
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Unreal engine was never designed for such high player counts

olive blaze
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You shoot it with AP, MG fire it works fine (if far too tanky).

trim perch
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helis just need a rework as a whole dealing with flying helis that have the healthpool of a mini APC is just zzzzz

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just make them like PR already enough said

hoary pike
trim perch
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ok but like its 30mm vs a heli that has shit ass metal

hoary pike
proud torrent
deft elm
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but that would create another set of problems

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1v1s with higher ttk would be even more of a shitshow than now

proud torrent
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clamp damage per round to around 6 - 12 between low and high damage weapons and a 3x bonus for headshots and it wouldn't be anywhere near as common of a problem.

hoary pike
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Raising the ttk is no good option.

proud torrent
native copper
trim perch
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shit ass netcode lets u tank bullets sometimes

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and sometimes can mean a lot of times

olive blaze
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I rarely see that, it's more the giant trade windows in close quarters.

native copper
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My primary strat is to shoot the corner after I see the 1st pixel of the enemy, so they are suppressed and then they panic and loose. And I rarely trade

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although I prefer to avoid cqc

trim perch
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why suppress when ur gonna kill the mfer when u see the guy already

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rofl

native copper
trim perch
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also loops back to the whole singular rifleman blurring the fuck out of you issue

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shits whack

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shouldnt be a thing anyways

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but whatever

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lowkey praying they make inf so dogshit to use that i finally have a reason to just continue being a armor bozo

native copper
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see no issues with that

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people just can't realize that winning a fight is not only about being the first to hit

topaz dust
unreal mauve
true turret
# topaz dust Even if they want to play otherwise, once they get slapped in the face with tick...

While yes, tickets really do create metagames, especially the part where you try to gamble on the enemy team losing more in a particular timeslot (attack, defense etc.), in pub matches both teams can play equally dumb and nothing changes and therefore owi uses ticket count more as an engame tool so the match finishes somewhere around the 1 hr mark. Even if some outrageous ticket system is implemented like starting with 50tx and every minute you get 5 more, people woulsnt really be more cautious, 2 full logi trucks would drive straight into some AT thing and round would be over in about 10 minutes. 😄

trim perch
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OWI should follow Roblox's move and remove tickets from their game.

hoary pike
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What system would replace tickets?

proud torrent
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Nothing.

hoary pike
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So, wasting radios would have no consequences. and vehicles with short respawn could also be wasted without negative effects.

topaz dust
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Imagine looking at the HLL ticketless model and thinking that's a good thing

trim perch
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Tickets are in a good place, I was just joking.

novel shard
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theres always massive cope surrounding this topic by fans of the ICO. Im not a fan of the ico and i dont believe it should take 10-12 seconds to ready your rifle and center your sights but i understand the people saying they like the suppression and the slower gameplay. The recoil is fine imo, well for everything besides bi-poded machine guns. Machine guns are in a pretty deplorable state right now and are pretty immersion breaking to me. I spend 90% of my time in squad sl'ing on a new player friendly server and when i play on the vanilla server one of the most common things i hear from new players is that they dont like the gun play of vanilla. This is one of the reasons why most modded servers are horrible to play on at the moment. The gun play of vanilla is too uncanny for most new players to latch on to so they flood modded servers. I never served in the military but i have 4 brothers who did and i play squad with 3 of them. My eldest brother whom is 11 years my elder served from 2004-2014 in the army and saw actual combat has even said he dislikes the gun play and it feels like his character has Parkinson's. He even made the joke that if he ever saw anybody shooting the 240 like that with a bi-pod he'd immediately take his gun away because hes gonna hurt some one lol. As far as the milsim feel goes before and after ICO i honestly cant tell the difference. Wether or not the game feels arcadey or milsim esque is up to the player base. I have alot of great memories from pre-ico of squad leads having marksmen scout ahead and us slow pushing through bushes or stacking up around door ways or corners. Ive also made some good memories after the changes as well but the bloom-esque effect to your shots and the weapon ready time sometimes make lost engagements feel poor

trim perch
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But on a tangential note I do wish that all the INDFOR light skinned technicals would have a reduced ticket cost and that there be more available on those relevant factions. feel like many get abandoned in the field. or maybe some sort of abandoned vehicle james bond auto destruct feature.

proud torrent