#give marksman more utility

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

quaint sequoia
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Marksman is currently a role very frowned upon because of its non-team play mechanics and its lack of utility. For example a rifleman is much better with an ammo bag and lots of optic choices while not taking up a fire support role

I believe that we should add some different things to the marksman kit to allow it to play well with other people. IM NOT SURE WHAT THE BEST OPTION WOULD BE SO LOOKING FOR IDEAS Here are some ideas, not necessarily good ones just sort of brainstorming and feel free to add more in the comments.

Laser Rangefinder: this would not only give the marksman the ability to hit long range shots more consistently but also allow utility in helping hats/lats

Thermals: this could allow the kit to spot enemies much more easily when they are slightly concealed. I know this doesn’t necessarily help the team play just kinda spouting ideas.

shell aurora
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I touched this in the FTL range markers thread

Remove SL range and give him and marksman lrf's

queen parrot
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I have always been a nice guy to marksmen because I understand that they are most of the time newer players who don't realize that it is suboptimal and most SLs realistically would want an extra HAT shot or a rally. Normally I won't kick marksmen except for the Brits where it becomes super problematic. But seeing this my hatred for them builds by the second and I will now take it out on them by kicking all marksmen from my squad instantly with no explanation.

lyric lily
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Laser Rangefinders and thermals would make the kit even more toxic, as the marksmeme would just vanish and try to solo hunt enemies with it.

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The best solution imo would be to make marksmeme a rifleman variant with an ammobag.

shell aurora
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Thermals, no
LRF, yes

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The mm needs some utility that is fireteam useful

finite pike
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LRF would just allow mraksmeme to lone wolf more. If you guys cant see the issue with that we cant help you realise how idiotic that idea is

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Marksmans utility is that in most cases its a DMR with a 7.62 round and better optic compared to other rifleman kits

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You can give it an ammo bag but thats about it

shell aurora
finite pike
shell aurora
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then magically his ability to Lonewolf is wisped away

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Anyone can Lonewolf

finite pike
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8 years of experiance and atleast 1.5k hours as SL at this point

shell aurora
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Breaking that habit is a SL's job

finite pike
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Get the fuck out with these “give the meme kit laser range finders”

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Fucking idiotic

shell aurora
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if they dont want to play coordinated with you, remove them

finite pike
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Give them a tool that doesnt promote lone wolfing then

shell aurora
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if they are lonewolf with your permission(engineer on radio hunt or Mine placement) sure

finite pike
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Like a fucking ammo bag

shell aurora
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Then they are just a rifleman

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remove the kit all together

finite pike
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MARKSMAN IS JUST A RIFLEMAN YOU PEPEGA

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Thats literally what a marksman is

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A rifleman with a higher magnification scope and more accurate rifle

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Like you dont even know what a marksman is and you argue about it

shell aurora
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then make a suggestino to remove MM

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Ik exactly wtf a MM is

finite pike
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Are you dumb or just have a reading disability

shell aurora
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the game has it

finite pike
shell aurora
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Yes... i kinda do

finite pike
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No you kinda dont

shell aurora
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mmmm, kinda do

finite pike
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Dumb dumb marksman is literally a rifleman with a more accurate rifle and in most cases uses a 7.62 ammo

shell aurora
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What he is IRL vs what he is meant for ingame is the problem u are having

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u cannot differentiate between "game designed role" and "IRL role"

finite pike
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I have no problem you are trying to make marksman into a kit to lone wolf

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Sure bud

shell aurora
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No, Im trying to give a squad function to the MM that it currently lacks

finite pike
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Give him an ammo bag

shell aurora
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Everykit can Lonewolf buddy

finite pike
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There is your teamplay utility

finite pike
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Think before spitting out shit ideas

shell aurora
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I mean, giving him an Ammo bag is just removing the kit

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so... stop being stupid and be clear "I want to remove MM"

finite pike
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Yeah im done with you

shell aurora
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Buddy, you are making shitty ideas

finite pike
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Cant understand between adding an ammo bag and removing a kit

shell aurora
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im working within the confines the game has atm, which seperates the MM into a seperate kit

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if you add an ammo bag, it's a rifleman

prime niche
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If you add a small ammo bag, like 50 ammo, it's a sidegrade to rifleman.

finite pike
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A 7.62 rifle with a better optic and a bipod

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Thats what MM gets

shell aurora
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but still a rifleman

finite pike
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Thats what makes it different to a rifleman

shell aurora
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no, it's just a limited selection choice under rifleman, like Optic Medic vs NonOptic medic

finite pike
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Marksman will always be a rifleman with a better rifle

shell aurora
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except without the utlity of ammobag

finite pike
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Then give him an ammo bag and increase rifleman ammo bag to 200 points

prime niche
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Or just 50, that's still good for 1 LAT, bandages, nade, rally.

finite pike
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You get 1 rifleman max if you have 3 fire support roles, 2 specialist roles and 2 medics

prime niche
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Letting a rifleman resupply 200 ammo is a bit much.

finite pike
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100 points is just not enough to keep the squad supplied if you need 50% of it for a idiotc RP rearm

prime niche
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Then make the rally cheaper.

shell aurora
finite pike
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Big brain idea i know

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Worked fine back then, works fine in Squad 44

shell aurora
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See, thats other ideas to make your stupid idea less stupid!

finite pike
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But we gotta he special and make it cost 50 points

shell aurora
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Rallies are strong, you'd have to nerf them if you adjusted their cost

finite pike
shell aurora
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I'm not mad, I'm just pointing out that "just give him ammobag!" is a terrible idea cause it just deletes the MM kit

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now if we WANT to delete the MM kit, sure

finite pike
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You cant even read the fucking chat let alone argue about something

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Marksman is a rifleman variant and is always gonna be that, he is not gonna get LRF which would just promote more lone wolf idiots even if SLs kick them

shell aurora
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Brother, you are the only one incapable of reading. You are slinging flaming toxic plumes every which way as we point out your idea is to remove the MM kit and make him a Rifleman kit with limited squad selection

finite pike
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Its still a Marksman kit

shell aurora
finite pike
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Holy shit you are tarded

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Its under the rifleman role but its still a fucking marksman kit

shell aurora
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Rifleman Variant, so just delete the MM kit and make it a 4th selection(5th or 6th for some non-conv forces) that only one player can pick

finite pike
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Still a fucking marksman kit

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Holy shit

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Why are these new players this fuckinh stupid

shell aurora
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but why have it seperate if u want him to have ammobag

shell aurora
finite pike
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Because unlike a rifleman kit it gets a more accurate rifle, better optic and is designed for a FIRE SUPPORT

shell aurora
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you're getting toxicly mad over people calling out what you're asking for

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You want him to have an Ammobag, like a Rifleman
So make him a Rifleman Kit

finite pike
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Im being toxic? Bro you had your message deleted because you called me re tarded

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You got 800 hours ? Why am i even bothering with your ass

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Bye

shell aurora
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and u skate by it using spaces

people, like discord admins, get touchy

finite pike
shell aurora
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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bemad I called out your suggestion to remove MMkit

finite pike
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Not my idea still

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You didnt call out anything btw

shell aurora
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I thought you left?

finite pike
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Nah gotta say how stupid you are still

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Because i never said to remove MM kit

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You are pulling shit out of your ass

shell aurora
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Alright, so again. MM getting ammobag=rifleman with better scope
you can do this by making him a Rifleman Kit, with limited selecion(we already do this with medics, certain HAT's, LAT's)

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so having him as a seperate kit would be redundant and not useful

finite pike
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It is still a MARKSMAN kit even if its under the rifleman role

shell aurora
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so remove MM and make him a Rifleman Kit is your suggestion

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Kit=Seperate icon role

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btw

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not loadout

finite pike
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You do not remove the kit you just move it under the rifleman selection

finite pike
shell aurora
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are you conflating Kit and Loadout?

finite pike
shell aurora
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no, they are the same Kit, different loadouts

finite pike
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But they have different icons

shell aurora
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no they dont

finite pike
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That means its different kits

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Yes they do

shell aurora
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a rifleman has a rifle icon

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all of them do

finite pike
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Have you never noticed it in your 800 hours

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Are iron sight/red dot AR and scoped AR different roles ?

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Oh look even better, 2 MG kits for TLF are different roles but they use the same icon wow

shell aurora
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that's the beauty, they shouldnt be, cause it causes the same problem you are suggesting

the TLF one is a Teamlimited vs Squad limited kit

prime niche
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The TLF one is also a fire support role, it blocks others.

shell aurora
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You're pointing out the same problem I have with your suggestion! ty for deductive skills 😄

also all rifleman have the same icon, how do you not know that

finite pike
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Well they have different icons in SDK so thats how i know about it

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Any optic rifleman has a rifle with an optic as a kit icon

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Same how ARs have different ones

shell aurora
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SDK=/=Live

that would be mildly useful, but atm, all rifleman are the same icon

finite pike
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Technically SDK=Live due to the fact that files used for factions are used in game

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Optic rifleman kits in files have the optic rifleman icon

shell aurora
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Well, CAS heli is in live SDK but not live game

finite pike
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Kit selection screen uses only 1 icon

finite pike
shell aurora
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if the icons exist, but arent used, they arent live

now it could be a Bug and are meant to be used, tbd

finite pike
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I just told you that it was used when we had a CAS heli on that 1 layer

shell aurora
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im talking rifleman icons have different optics on the icon

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it could be a bug that they are not usedd

finite pike
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They mustve removed it then because it was used before

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Sorry for calling you tarded earlier

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And calling you stupid

shell aurora
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mhm, heated debates happen

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the TL;DR is

Marksman needs love

finite pike
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What needs to happen is moving LAT kits to direct combat roles so marksman doesnt block them

queen parrot
finite pike
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Dont think anyone with 2 braincells fw MM atm

prime niche
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The variable zoom marksmen kits are good on certain maps.

queen parrot
queen parrot
icy storm
twilit hill
quaint sequoia
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Bro y’all are going too far man I’m just looking for some creative ideas no need to be so crazy lmao

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Just tryna come up w some stuff to make the marksman more viable for team play

quaint sequoia
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Glad y’all are chill like that

queen parrot
twilit hill
quaint sequoia
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My thought was that by giving them like a range finder or smthing they could help out like the at but I totally see how that also promotes lone wolfing

twilit hill
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I think it's hard to give them individual utility that beats AT, ammo, or a medic bag.
So the only real area to improve upon is how, or how well, they kill things. Which bring it back to the problem of the class not being seen as one for team players^ because of it's lack of utility beyond killing things.

^Also the reputation people playing the class have given it with their behavior.

quaint sequoia
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It’s a tricky problem but I feel like there’s gotta be an answer somewhere that keeps the kit and the idea but forces compatability

twilit hill
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I'm willing to bet a specialized thermal sight would be seen as useful for the team and worth having on any other class besides MM. It's just at this point people generally understand that giving a MM better sights isn't a net upgrade in spotting power for a Squad or team, but could be one for an individual marksman.

quaint sequoia
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Hm ok maybe on a kit like the scout that doesn’t have the range potential which means the user will need to be closer to the action?

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I was also thinking like thermal binocs not the sight itself

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But either could work

twilit hill
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I think even thermal binoculars would have the same problem. It isn't solely about what the class has, a big chunk of the resistance is to how the class is how it is typically played, and how that would interface with anything you add to it.

IE give them a range-finder and they're not going to use it to help teammates who need precise ranging. They're going to be off on their own, using it once or twice to get the range to the area they plan on shooting people and then forgetting about it. Give them a thermal and they'll spot stuff first, but it probably won't matter because they're the only ones in a position to act on it.
Neither does anything to tether them to their Squad in terms of physical location or activity so they'll still wander off.

shell aurora
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@twilit hill but that argument is the same for all kits???

what stops a Grenadier from going off alone. He has Good Optics, Area Vision Denial, AOE Ranged Killing

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or the optic AR

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or a HAT? LAT i can see cause 1 LAT rocket generally does not kill any vehicle, but a HAT can still pop LAVs and IFV's with his 2 rockets

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Or Engineer, who is probably the most promoted to go Rambo/Lonewolf

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simply for wetworking Radios or Mining Roads

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giving the MM a LRF is prob the most logical way to give the MM a Reason to be with the squad, where atm he has none, which compounds the hate towards MM cause he has no team utility and no team requirement atm so he is incentivized to lonewolf and kill stack to be of use

giving him the LRF actually DOES tether him to his squad or fireteam

twilit hill
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a LRF doesn't make him stay with the squad at all, if you tell him he's needed to give range to AT (or anyone else) most will just ignore it and not do that.

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All kits have the same ability to wander off, but MM are uniquely known for it. Giving them some form of powerful utility isn't going to make players like them more if they take it and wander off with it. Nor do I think most of them will think, "Oh wow this is useful I better stick with my squad where I can use it rather than some place I can snipe at randoms."

finite pike
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And MM is limited to 4 on a team so he wont be in every squad there is

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If you reduced it to only 2 FS roles then yes you are gonna block it

twilit hill
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I assumed the slot would go with them because otherwise squads would have a lot of weapons, and you'd end up with the first 3 or 4 squads having nearly everything, just like when you used to be able to take 2x HATs in a squad.

shell aurora
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Again, people forget SL's can do their job. If my HAT is off killing infantry rather than vehicles, he's getting kicked. If a medic is going off for kills rather than holding back and reviving my squad, he's getting kicked.

If a kit isn't doing their job, communicate, and if they ignore, KICK THEM. They will not learn if you let them do the bad behavior. I see too often medics going off for kills, yet I don't see threads and posts galore about how Lonewolf medics are being.

twilit hill
shell aurora
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it won't magically keep them with the squad, but it will give players an ability that works better with the squad, giving the kit a role rather than "Kill shit better", giving more higher skilled players something to do with the role, genrally improving the 'optics' of the kit

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There is a 'Culture' to the MM kit that needs correcting

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Medics have a bad 'culture' to them too, as being a better lonewolf cause they can mend themselves and bandage faster

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but they have a critical role to the squad that more seasoned players play them and supress that bad culture

twilit hill
shell aurora
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and those seasoned players rub off on newer ones

twilit hill
shell aurora
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there will always be solo wolfs

twilit hill
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Not to the degree of MM. Not even close.

shell aurora
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MM has it the worst because the MM kit has NOTHING going for it but solo wolf shit

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so u have to give it something that benefits squad play

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anything that benefits squad play, benefits solo play

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u cannot add anything that wouldnt benefit solo wolf style play

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but u need to add something to fix the fact the MM is ONLY good in solo wolf style play

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see the paradox?

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if you give them a reason to be with the squad, you increase the threshold for them to be with the squad

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rn, the threshhold is near 0

twilit hill
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Then take away ranging on SL marks and give the SL alone a rangefinder.
(This would do little btw, it is really easy to range in Squad)

shell aurora
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atm the job of a MM is to engage from a flank, alone, to not get return fire from targets shooting at your squad

shell aurora
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All people see with MM is "Kill shit better" kit, and that's what yoinks bad behavior. It doesn't have a purpose to the squad. Giving it a purpose will help change the image from solely "Kill shit better"

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The change won't be overnight, but it will be a snowball down a hill as games get played with it

twilit hill
surreal raft
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making the most useless kit useful is a good suggestion

twilit hill
shell aurora
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im agaisnt thermals, just LRF

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thermals should go to something special

echo parrot
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Give mm's an ammo bag and they can lone wolf even more/easier. Put them into a specialist role instead of fire support, that may help with the whole 'useless meme role'

quaint sequoia
finite pike
twilit hill
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I wouldn't be opposed to FTL being a kit, if that was what it got, and other kits couldn't use FTL marks or mark the map.
If only because I dislike having people ask me for FTL.

prime niche
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It's still a waste of a kit with 40 ammo.

queen parrot
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They should just straight up delete the kit outright lol. Too much lone wolf trash with a kit like that. Anything that promotes lone wolfing in Squad literally kills the game.

leaden tree
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honestly marksman as a class doesn't seem that unbalanced in squad. The purpose of a designated marksman is to support their squad by being able to engage targets beyond the riflemans effective range which most marksman kits are able to do just fine. While you could say that the extra range the designated marksman role provides encourages players to go out on their own realistically DMR's are encouraged to stick with their team due marksman rifles reduced performance in shorter ranged engagements. The real issue is the lack of teamwork that takes place in practice. Really I think the problem is less of a balance issue and more of a teamwork and communication issue. Sure its pretty common for marksman to run off and do their own thing instead of working with their squad but that's pretty common with nearly any kit. Its not common to see squad completely split apart after the initial stages of the game. I think the problem is less the marksman kit enabling lone wolfers but more people just not wanting to stick with their squads. If OWI just released some educational videos and tutorials on how to work with your squad then we might not have as many issues with infantry combat being so disorganized

lyric lily
# leaden tree honestly marksman as a class doesn't seem that unbalanced in squad. The purpose ...

The balancing issue is that the marksmeme underperforms compared to other kits, because it has no team play utility, is worse than other kits in CQB and the firefights at long ranges where it actually outperforms rifleman do not matter in Squads game design logic. In addition to this the marksmeme blocks important kits like LATs, and as a result everyone complains that armor is too strong,without noticing that half of the squads lack one AT because of the mm.
The other issue is the mindset of marksmeme players. Sure, other players also lone wolf, but when i SL and someone picks marksmeme, there is basically a 70% chance that this player does not follow orders, is brain dead, spawns at the opposite side of the map or all at once. This is not that significant with other kits.
The mindset problem cannot be fixed, but the devs can make the kit at least viable for people who want to pick a useful kit.

prime niche
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Same goes for MG more so KatW

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Kick MG

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ENG MIC NO MG

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MG=KICK

shell aurora
lyric lily
prime niche
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It's still a worse kit and will lose you the game/fights more often than having a marksman imo.

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Can't fight on the move whatsoever, can't properly fight appearing targets when not bipodded, can't effectively fight at range, etc.

lyric lily
prime niche
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Marksman can fight CQB with point fire (finnicky) ADS like a rifleman on appearing targets with steady aim, can fight at longer ranges than rifleman and lock down areas on certain maps.

shell aurora
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But it has a team utility of hard suppression, so it isn't labeled troll pick

prime niche
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Having a guy "suppressing" is worse than a guy with any other utility who can also still suppress in the way that matters (flinching active targets).

shell aurora
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Which is what the mm needs

lyric lily
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And a bad MG can still follow orders, usually.

prime niche
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Order being switch to a better kit.

shell aurora
lyric lily
shell aurora
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Noobs pick mg kits too, but so do some higher skill players(remnants of pre ico mg, BUFF MG!)

shell aurora
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So it will keep the negative connotation

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Till we give it a solid reason to be picked

prime niche
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If you are a good shooter and understand the ICO mechanics the markman kit is often very good. The main problem is that it can block more teamplay oriented kits. Either moving it or LAT to direct combat is the smallest and most effective change tbh.

lyric lily
candid moon
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How about giving some unique building assets to marksmen (as it's for engeneer).
Maybe small and big camouflage nets to support himself and teammates, or, perhaps, a tripod with extremely high magnification and maybe LRF, so teammates on position, not just marksmen, can see way-way further?

late sail
lyric lily
candid moon
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and not just be a guy with a better scope, who's actually useless in terms of what he brings to the table

lyric lily
mild gulch
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Which role?

The marksman that needs help is the SVD. It’s terrible.

pliant crescent
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Id just prefer if MM was moved down to the basic roles. It should still limit the slots the same, but that would allow a marksman without stealing a slot for AT or GL or scoped Autorifleman

stuck coral
finite pike
stuck coral
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I think it's craaaazy that people are making it sound like marksman are the only class that lone wolf's in this game.

Dude hats and lats constantly go miles away from the squad to kill a tank sitting insanely far away from the objective and or the team.

They are actually probably the most annoying kit even because you actually need them.

At least if I have to kick the marksman I don't lose the game over it lol

finite pike
stuck coral
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That was my point

finite pike
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Like i said, move Rifleman AT (LAT) to direct combat and move the iron sight/red dot AR to fire support and let 2 players use AR from fire support roles

stuck coral
finite pike
stuck coral
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Also I guess I'm not seeing what the range finder does to make the marksman more of a lone wolf

slow holly
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Also combines the kits which are largely identical, and now they don't overlap with AT requirements

finite pike
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You already have the scoped AR in the FS roles, why is red dot/irons AR in a different section

stuck coral
finite pike
stuck coral
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I'm probably just misunderstanding you, but are you wanting the AR to be more prevalent as a selection?

I just don't know what it would change in terms of how people select the kit or use it to change its category is all

finite pike
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This fixes the issue of having your LAT kit being blocked by AR/GL/MM kits

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And has proper fire support roles in their own category

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If you have 1 AR per squad (which is good enough) then that 1 player has the option between optic and non optic kits which is good for player choice

stuck coral
finite pike
quaint sequoia
prime niche
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Yeah and it'd be 2 like it currently is.

finite pike
quaint sequoia
finite pike
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Its tied to the actual kit

prime niche
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Would also make it more likely for Turks to take their 3 max LATs per squad.

quaint sequoia
prime niche
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Could actually be a pretty sizeable Turks buff.

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You could legitimately play 1 SL, 2 Med, 3 LAT, 2 Grenadier, 1 Rifleman with a vic for ammo.

finite pike
# quaint sequoia Yes fs

There is 3 types of limits, category limits 3 fire support roles and 2 specialist roles, team limit and squad limit

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Iirc you can have max of 8 LAT kits on a team and 2 per squad, 12 and 3 for TLF

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I think if we ever get a VCO where it buffs AT against vics 1 LAT per squad would be fine

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2 for TLF

prime niche
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2 is still fine, I think vehicles don't need giant tweaks.

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Problem comes mostly when you have a disabled vic or you've flanked and your max damage is pretty low.

finite pike
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I just wanna see some vehicle mechanics from Squad 44 to be added to Squad

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Which would buff LAT

prime niche
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Like Turks struggle so bad vs stationary tanks even because it takes 9-10 LATs to kill because you can't hit the racks.

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And you can't boost that damage per shot by hitting rear/rear-back shots.

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Basically that's how it should be for basics, higher trace distance on all AT to hit racks and damage boosts for hitting rear/rear-back and top.

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Nothing massive but enough in that case to cut the shots to kill.

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Increasing the damage for LATs by even 25% if hitting these areas would make 1000 hp vics 3 shots, 1250 hp vics 4 shots, 2000 hp vics 5 shots.

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Cutting it all by 1.

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33% more you're getting into territory where rear and regular shots combine up much better but it may be a little too much damage.