Squad now is UNPLAYABLE !!

[candid marlin]

MGs were supposed to get more useful but now they've lost a ton of their killing power

supposed to make people stick together more when the suppression actually incentivises you to spread more

before it made a lot more sense for players to pair up so you could trade but both people get suppressed now and it's more about volume than accuracy

[finite swift]

Suppression works as part of a whole system to make them happen and sustain them.

I don't just think that first shots ought to be misses for the funsies; sway and recoil are the other part of it.

And yes, MGs need help.

At the end of the day we look at aggregates; so we look at nudges that produce cumulative effects rather than just individual experiences.

That said, favouring volume puts a decided advantage to groups, I'd say, and is kind of the whole reason that ARs and MGs exist.

[candid marlin]

suppression usually happens within 1v1 fights and very rarely do 3+ players look at each other at the same time and start to suppress each other to get an advantage

I don't know if I've ever seen that actually happen with both sides using cover and shooting all as one like you'd see IRL

what you see is people peaking 1 guy if they can and getting 1-2 shots off

MGs aren't going to get better because the ICO has decided to nerf people's accuracy when trading shots but has made bipoded MGs as effected as regular rifles and also you're just as accurate at range now as you were before if you have high stam

meaning that MGs basically have to play shooting down narrow lanes and very very rarely get a chance to outrange infantry in fights meaning shooting over 500 meters away

and now MGs have so much recoil you have very little advantage over the same calibre rifle at that sort of range

basically at the ranges where MGs volume is useful irl, in game you have so much recoil it's better to just single shot at enemies

[chrome lagoon]

If their recoil and MOA were dropped (pretty significantly) but still remained very poor non bipodded they'd be good.

[candid marlin]

ICO effects the vast majority of fights in a goofy stupid way, guy forgetting how to aim his rifle so it takes 2 seconds or more to aim at someone 25 meters away and way worse with something like a G3

and it mainly effects close range 1v1 fights because squad has such close sightlines and such much opportunity for inf to walk in cover

you very rarely encounter situations where there's a 100 meter open field being watched by enemies where you can't just flank them because people are so incompetent they will all watch 1 direction regardless of what's happening

the times you do encounter this because the numbers are even on both teams there's almost no point attacking because you're probably not going to take the flag and you'll lose a ton of tickets doing it

[ionic charm]

I just have to say it one more time for all those in the back.

ICO is never going to be reversed

ICO came out Months ago

ICO is how the DEVS want the game to play and continue to be played

ICO caused the game to increase in popularity substantially

Please stop complaining about ICO, It didn't Ruin the game, You're just missing the point of squad and how the game was meant to be played, Its not supposed to be point and shoot, It rewards players who play strategically and progressively, and thats what it was meant to do. If you don't like it go play GE or Similar Mods that remove ICO.

I do agree, Some guns are ridiculous and should have their recoil values change (MEA/Turkish 🤦‍♂️ )

If You can't play the game successfully with ICO than maybe its not the game, its you.

[candid marlin]

I say things that can be improved to make the ico way better and you take that as me saying ICO ruined the game then also agree a bunch of the weapons have fucked recoil

Also I don't even know how ico can be good with recoil bug in the game, the fact some players have huge advantages in aim time and sway over others pretty much fucks it from the start

Some people have less than half the aim time, sway and recover faster from flinches than others, idk how that can possibly be good

[ionic charm]

The FPS advantages aren't Huge and are massively blown out of proportion

[candid marlin]

Have you actually checked yourself?

Sorry but if you think the fps advantages aren't huge I don't think we can talk about ICO when it's halving your sway and aim times

It's the difference between being able to shoot accurately 3-4 seconds earlier waiting from 0 stam

[kindred adder]

Idk why you people can't just go out and buy a 4090!

[atomic saddle]

ICO caused the game to increase in popularity substantially

[ionic charm]

Yea I see it

Player increase

[smoky rapids]

You'll notice that active user count increased, and the number of positive reviews remained trended slightly higher than prior despite the two month period of increased negative reviews.

[ionic charm]

^

[smoky rapids]

(ICO released Sept 26, so we're really just talking about a few week period of negative reviews as a reaction)

The review balance has largely returned to what it was afterward, and it still sits at "Very Positive" today.

We can all understand the argument that ICO was controversial and even that a portion of players, especially those with a sizable investment of time in the game, may have been unhappy with the change... but it did not make a lasting dent in popularity.

I'm not exactly on board with the statement that it "caused the game to increase in popularity substantially" either, though.

Hard to say that ICO is responsible for the uptick. Increased marketing and sales definitely have some impact here and it's hard to divorce the effects of these things from the ICO.

[candid marlin]

I would think the game will be more popular at least in the short term because of the ICO I'm not sure about long, that chart though doesn't really prove much either way

There were also multiple sales and shit post ICO so 1 big spike isn't crazy considering the games popularity has been growing for a long time

[smoky rapids]

Most major patches attract similar amounts of interest so it's normal for there to be a slight uptick as people see the notification on steam for example and decide to give the update a try, too.

So even if 6.0 was responsible for active player growth, it's hard to say that that is an effect specific to ICO.

[wicked fox]

This. The issue is, in fantasy world, you would need your squad suppressing, and another squad flanking, given that there is 1 enemy squad. If enemy has 2 squads, then you need 3 and so on and so on. I seldomly see people using light vics for supression, nobody is realising that even 7.62 open top either mobile or from a distance, replaces half of a squad in terms of suppression and killing power. But then again, they can also bring in the same or similar vics. Ideally its a game of 1-up until both teams are on the same point or split between two. But this almost never happens since everyone thinks "other guys will do it". If i roll my squad with a backcap squad, i will be told that we dont need to do that since they are already capping. So i have to move randomly around the map, gamble tickets and vehicles.

[balmy current]

Yap

[normal tangle]

Yes. Stop yapping on the place where people are supposed to have discussions about the game. Why the hell aren’t y’all talking telepathically.

[ionic charm]

Then you be the one to take the initiative, You be the one to grab that MG kit or Grab that KORD and suppress the enemy. people need to stop blaming the game and start using ICO to their advantage if others wont.

[wicked fox]

i am doing exactly that. Set up 2 HMGs overlooking a village the rest of the team was assaulting, ordered my squad to man them, together with an MG and we were sending rounds over for 10-15 minutes of sustained fire over the distance of 500m or so - it got some squads onto the objective but they went in 3 people at a time, got picked off, and so the conveyor belt continued. In the bigger picture, it worked. Some people could also say "if your squad wasnt fooling around on those MGs and instead put bodies on the cap, we could have taken the objective" and they cannot be blamed tbh, the game revolves into putting bodies on objective in any way possible while trying to sustain less casualties then the other team, taking the ticket increase into account, hoping to be net positive in the end. If successful, push onto the next flag and try to gain more tickets by swarming it before the enemy team can reorganise. If failed, pull back and turtle in hopes that the enemy repeats your mistake.

If you look at it from afar, the game by design is not about firefights, cohesion and whatnot, its just who rushes x point faster, with less casualties.

In addition, even when I take the MG, the pace of our squad or the team completely overtakes the time to set up a narrow position in cover so whenever i lock down an area, we are already moving somewhere else. If we somehow are in a semi open position and get fired upn, i would often be the first one to light up the suspected location, but since nobody else really joins in, my muzzleflash becomes the beacon of destruction, X marks the spot, painted target etc, resulting in me getting picked off first.

[smoky rapids]

This is why MGs suck, and HMGs need camo nets to not suck. Big volume gun with no ability to reposition makes you a real target.

If while in bipod stance the operator was less exposed it would severely help holding wider angles.
Setting up on say, a rock, should ideally expose a small portion of the gunner’s noggin from the front.

[still hull]

they would have to fix rocks hitboxes first

[smoky rapids]

Honestly I don’t know if that’d be a real problem. It should be really hard to hit a bipoded weapon user behind good cover.

Encourage more flanking to eliminate these positions.

It’s so so so hard to do your job as an MG right now that I’m fine with them being almost impervious from the front outside of say marksmen shots

Increasing their survivability seems like the only way to allow them to sustain fire and suppress without just putting a headshot me sign up

Also, make bipod traversal angles more lenient. Being unable to aim high/low/left/right enough is super shite and can make you useless on some cover.

[still hull]

alot of rocks in game have hitboxes that extend way beyond visible texture

and best places you are talking about for MG are on slanted rooftops there is a trick to making your head almost invisible

[smoky rapids]

Yeah, I’m basically saying make that more possible everywhere

And yeah I know there are some rock LOD issues

[wicked fox]

90% of rocks are useless for deployment of bipods.

it would also help if the devs explained the vision of how MGs fit into kit selection and ICO in detail, not just high suppression, more teamwork, enjoy , bye.

Like, what is their reasoning for it to be this way. It might be valid in their eyes, only we dont get it and just use it as we deem it works, or dont use it at all.

I personally imagine it is a primarily stationary weapon for long range (250m+) sustained suppressive fire, fitting into "weapons" squads that employ heavier machinery and are further away from the objective , attack or defense, with also employing higher caliber munition if the chance permits. I was really effective in such situation just once (killed enemies, halted their advance, didnt get killed myself) on talil where the enemy decided to assault over a hill and open desert. all subsequent outings were not so successful or i preyed on people that had no situational awareness and just gained many kills in close range, but those could have been achieved with any weapon

[balmy current]

There’s been 2000 messages how many more arguments about ico can you have

[limpid timber]

"*it would also help if the devs explained the vision of how MGs fit into kit selection and ICO in detail, not just high suppression, more teamwork, enjoy , bye.

Like, what is their reasoning for it to be this way. It might be valid in their eyes, only we dont get it and just use it as we deem it works, or dont use it at all.*"

They have spoken about it. It either gets ignored and/or lost in the "ICO SUCKS"-noise.

[wicked fox]

I meant a more permanent notice like map loading tips or wiki or something like that.

[limpid timber]

Map loading tips explaining the specifics of how best to use MGs/ARs would kinda go against their philosophy of, "There is no wrong way to play Squad," and not telling players the "correct" way to play the game.
Most of the tips explain how mechanics work, or describe their effects, So for MGs it'd be something like, "Machine guns are good for causing suppression."

[wicked fox]

Yes, but when you do changes that no game has done before in the whole fps genre, it would be useful.

[limpid timber]

I think they're content just letting players figure it out for themselves.

[wicked fox]

Its also hard to suggest any changes from our side. The most common suggestion to ICO is drumroll remove ICO, and there is nothing to point at that explains the thing in depth. You cannot point to increased teamwork because it didnt do that for instance.

[limpid timber]

I don't think it is difficult to suggest changes or offer feedback for the game.
They just don't acknowledge it, but based on some of the recent QoL changes they're obviously listening.

[candid marlin]

Holy shit these guys are really just saying to get on a kord in a position where half a squad can see you and start spraying

sorry but the idea you can just sit on a MG in full view of a squad and shoot is so insane

if you sit on an MG in full view someone is going to peak and you're not always going to see them and they'll shoot you in the face once and that's that

[still hull]

but i have suppression cannon they shouldnt be able to fight back

[candid marlin]

they did explain, they said they wanted MGs to be used for suppression and to reduce their leathality so they would work with the squad by suppressing but in squad if you use it this way where you're popping your head out to a wide range of fire so you can suppress a wide area

you're just going to get shot in the face

It's really not that complicated, if the MG doesn't have lethality because of high MOA and the spread from the bursts is huge

then peaking from cover and popping off 1-2 shots at it is very safe

if you get shot you'll fall into cover and get revived

the idea you can use MGs like this is so delusional it's unreal

[wicked fox]

I know, maybe there is another method that they indended but we dont get it. What we figured out is basically "dont take the mg, its bad and you will get shot,"

[still hull]

youre ruining peoples immersion by spitting facts

[candid marlin]

Unless you make the MG have low recoil able to laser beam people this is the reality

Even when the MG would laserbeam people you would never want to sit in full view of a large area unless you were 500-700 meters from inf

rifles are more accurate than MGs and after the first shot in a burst at range you're not going to hit anything so in reality you aren't going to kill someone with volume

people say both "MGs have volume of fire" but also "MGs should do small bursts" but you can't really have volume of fire if you can only do 2-3 round bursts

the whole MG discussion is so delusional it's unreal

[wicked fox]

True. If they said "you guys are dumb, you should be using MGs past 500m for greatest effect" , we could just say ok then show me a map where such sightline is even possible apart from talil.

[candid marlin]

if you ever have an MG shooting at you and you have 2-3 guys spread out over 60 meters literally all of you just peak the MG and shoot him

[candid marlin]

well this is the thing, in squad the sightlines are quite small so you can't use MGs advantage of volume in most situations and at lower ranges rifles are so accurate you'll just be popped in the head

MGs fundamentally can't be used to cover a wide angle in 95% of situations

the whole concept of how MGs are designed around doesn't make sense

simply pick MG or AR and try sitting in a wide angle position to support your squad

it doesn't work

[wicked fox]

Yes, so something has to change. Maps, gamemodes,, flow/speed of gameplay... Or the gun/gun mechanics.

[candid marlin]

MGs don't work like that in real life

you can't just sit in a super exposed position hoping to suppress everything before you get shot

if you're in an urban environment say, you can't just sit in the place that sees the most because you'll get shot from more places too. Usually even for helping your squad you want to sit in a position behind the squad where you can see a small angle where enemies will come into view from or you can shoot over there heads if you really want to do squads suppression

but you might as well just watch a road they're likely to cross in a way that they can only shoot at you while either literally in your building or in the middle of the road your watching

[wicked fox]

Correct. Urban or semi urban is even more reason to go AR for the versatility and mobility.

[candid marlin]

alright but in squad because of the small scale and accuracy of weapons you should really watch thin sightlines people are going to cross in most situations with an MG

[ionic charm]

He just explained it himself, Devs have told us time and time again, even listed it in the game "The AutoRifleman/Machine Gunner role is for Sustained mid-long range fire and/or suppression.

Its a video game, People dont fear for their lives when getting shot at by an MG. You can't "Fix" Suppression without crippling any INF that goes against it.

[still hull]

RS2 had suppression done right

and it didnt smear your screen with vaseline

and made suppressed person unable to return fire

[ionic charm]

RS2 was just a magdump fight with MGs, And the suppression just lowered your FOV, Made your gun sway

[still hull]

current squad suppression is also a magdump by both people

[ionic charm]

Yea

I dont see how RS2 was mych better

[still hull]

suppression did affect your aiming ability without making gunplay awful

[ionic charm]

Yea

And ICO did make gunplay awful

But you know what, Thats the whole point

[chrome lagoon]

Well suppression is about voluem of fire, difference is that the MGs in rising storm were really good, even on the move.

In Squad they suck in all situations, basically.

[ionic charm]

ICO was made to make INF a shit time so you HAD to use teamwork to overwhelm your enemy because you couldnt shoot for shit

[wicked fox]

And in theory it works, yay

[still hull]

theory only

[ionic charm]

Yea Ill tell you it works for sure, We all know it does. It's almost impossible to run and gun solo now

Whole point of ICO

Lame OWI devs were mad I was getting 30 kill matches by running in the backline as a combat engineer

[wicked fox]

Yes, and in practice its 90% players decision that makes it work or not. The system is good, its just that people play in certain way after 25 years of BF-like mechanics and every round there is a winner, which means that you dont have to play a certain way to win and lose.

[ionic charm]

You guys are thinking way Too deep about this.

And it still is lmao

ICO made it even easier for vics to dominate

[chrome lagoon]

You could do that before, it's just a little easier in that case.

For 2 man vics they are a lot stronger because you can actuall drive by without getting whacked by a bunch of missiles.

[limpid timber]

al-Basrah from refinery, Mosque, VCP, North Highway, Airport, and a few other places covering open desert.
Anvil all over the place as long as you aren't in the valley.
Black Coast from VHF, Monastery, and Fort.
Goose Bay airfield, Taqqut.
Gorodok radio station, ruins, shipping center
Kohat all over.
Lashkar Valley all over.
Mutaha in the cities from the rooftops
Skorpo all over.
Yeho has a few places too.

[ionic charm]

Actually using your brain tactically and finding spots that are effective positions for MGs???

Get out of here

[chrome lagoon]

The MGs are total shit, there's no good "position" for them.

[ionic charm]

MGs In real life face the same Issues you guys are talking about, The War on Terror Saw militant forces switch to using Snipers to defeat MGs Because they didnt have good AT

[chrome lagoon]

And past point blank you aren't hitting with the awful MG MOA and recoil.

On a long sightline you use a vehicle or even a marksman kit.

[ionic charm]

Bipod 🥺

Its one button on your keyboard its begging you to use it

[chrome lagoon]

Only makes it semi-usable, recoil and MOA is still horrible.

[ionic charm]

Theres 0 recoil with a bipod what are you on about

[wicked fox]

Epic job on this. Many of those are roof or open ground, easy to get whacked.

[chrome lagoon]

There's plenty of recoil and you still have the same MOA.

[ionic charm]

Yea we all agree TOW change was dogshit

BUT. Thats the POINT!

These updates we're made to NERF

[wicked fox]

Moa doesnt change, yes, recoil with bipods is also more geared for 150m max, way close and into the effective range of everything but a pistol

[ionic charm]

Because Who wants a thermobar in the game

Yea INF would have a jolly time when I have a full squad deleter in my back pocket

Also, You guys are missing the point once again, Please go back and watch the Entire Release and read the patch notes for the TOW overhaul

It was made to make tows shit so they couldnt hit Helis and fast moving vics

So it would open the door for Anti Air to be more warranted

TOW overhaul made the game more realistic.....

[limpid timber]

The ATGM changes aren't unrealistic

[ionic charm]

They perform now more similiar to real life TOws

[candid marlin]

Except that's not really how it works

[chrome lagoon]

The mouse stuff with the ATGMs needs removed, the way they work (even if a bit random) is fine.

[ionic charm]

Turn your sense up with the 8x Multiplyer... Its in the settings.....

[chrome lagoon]

Though they should remove random launch angles.

ATGMs were too easy to use beforehand. Way way too easy.

[candid marlin]

in reality MGs are just in a shit state, rifles are just as accurate at range and vics dominate the meta because they function exactly the same while inf are now far weaker

[ionic charm]

Guys, Do you all play the game regularly

Because even after all this BS

I still get on and have a damn fun time playing

[candid marlin]

have to agree with this, I think ATGMs were way too strong and easy to use

[ionic charm]

You can

[candid marlin]

I still enjoy but the ICO does almost everything it tries to do completely wrong

[chrome lagoon]

You locked down certain maps with 1 TOW fob, Kohat was unplayable (it still basically is).

[ionic charm]

👍

[limpid timber]

You can ammo rack most tanks with one shot.

[ionic charm]

Youve tested all of these??

I have a Video right now that proves you wrong

Almost all tank can be 1 shot towed

[candid marlin]

nah I think it's only a specific T-72 that can't be ammo racked in 1

[chrome lagoon]

You can't unless you're using TOW or MILAN.

[ionic charm]

t72 can be

T90 cant

same with ZTZ

and challenger

[chrome lagoon]

Or Malyutka, the rest of the ATGMs don't have enough trace distance to rack basically any tank.

[ionic charm]

Malyutkas are shit and they are supposed to be shit

They're bad rockets period

[chrome lagoon]

Malyutkas are actually good, for racks.

Since they have 10m trace distance, same as TOW/Milan so if you flank an enemy IFV or Tank you can one shot them.

Flank an Abrams with a Kornet, Reflecks, etc. Better hope you're flat on the left side.

[limpid timber]

Also most armor players hate being one-shot by stuff.

[ionic charm]

Maybe im wrong, But Ive never one shot with a malyutka

[ionic charm]

Wait till they get drafted and deployed 🤯

[chrome lagoon]

Fine with being racked by a well aimed shot, only reason N-LAW is scary tbh.

[ionic charm]

Tanks IRL are one shot by Infantry

[chrome lagoon]

You can hide your racks, take cover, etc. If the enemy has a 1.5m trace distance AT or ATGM they can't do anything.

[ionic charm]

Ive only been one shot 2 by an NLAW in game, Rare but yea it pissed me the fuck off cant lie

[candid marlin]

They can be 1 shot by infantry

very rarely

[ionic charm]

Too complicated

[wicked fox]

Like inf players hate getting oneshot because all those years of aimtraining and 180 flicks have gone to waste.

[chrome lagoon]

The vics don't need an overhaul, just balance and consistency tweaks.

[ionic charm]

Yea why are we even talking about armor, The big issue is the cardinal direction bug

[chrome lagoon]

HP bars help for teamwork and asset management.

[ionic charm]

You guys know about this right

[candid marlin]

They really don't need, people get so excited about PS tank mechanics but it didn't really improve gameplay at all

[chrome lagoon]

You don't need an "overhaul" to change the damage dealt by ammo to certain targets.

[candid marlin]

Amazing gameplay of first one to hit the others gunner wins

[chrome lagoon]

You go in and change some numbers lul.

[ionic charm]

If armour is facing A cardinal direction then they take up to 30% more damage, But if a vic is facing North East etc... It takes REDUCED damage and even bounces shots.

[candid marlin]

HE killing logi's doesn't require overpressure

[ionic charm]

Vics dont need an overhaul they need to be patched

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDXxkz4N4H0

[chrome lagoon]

It doesn't take less damage, it just lowers the penetration of incoming rounds. It matters on tanks and a few IFVs vs the weak 30mm AP rounds.

[ionic charm]

No

[chrome lagoon]

What about it? You just change the damage modifiers.

[ionic charm]

They are armored

[candid marlin]

Doesn't need it, isn't going to improve the game to have a specific mechanic to check the exact distance they can be overpressured from

[ionic charm]

nevrmind

[candid marlin]

You won't be able to tell if it's working in game or not

[ionic charm]

Overpressure is barely in the game at all and its just too complicated to be in squad

Lets not forget they took out backblast

[candid marlin]

give pen value to HE and higher damage then now it kills these vics

Overpressure is a very complicated mechanic which again would be pretty much impossible to check if it works correctly and is so buggy in games like warthunder

[chrome lagoon]

But overall it's unneccessary. You should be shooting vehicles with AP and irl an AP round hitting a light vic or APC is going to have the same outcome as a HEAT or HE round (the people inside are dead, the thing is a wreck).

[candid marlin]

if you can do something with number changes it's usually the best way to do it

sometimes you can't but squad is a fairly old game with so much shit built on shit

[ionic charm]

✅

APFSDS has no explosive

[candid marlin]

same thing happens with helis, there's not enough stuff to penetrate to make a large amount of spalling

shell goes right through barely doing any damage

[ionic charm]

Funfact, All AT bounces off the front of the cockpit

100% indestructible except for tanks

[chrome lagoon]

You get a direct hit you're still wrecking the thing with the sheer force, Squad doesn't simulate/model grazing hits that would be the point of HE vs small vehicles.

[candid marlin]

squad is already in my view reaching far beyond what it should be

[ionic charm]

Oh ingame, Yea

[candid marlin]

we don't need complicated vic mechanics

[chrome lagoon]

They could change it so HEAT and maybe HE rounds on tanks one shot logis and lighter vics like AP does but it's low on the priority list of vic changes.

[ionic charm]

Squad is still mostly INF based

[candid marlin]

we don't need 10 factions and 20 maps

[ionic charm]

No no no steelths

Your getting too radical

I need more content lmao

[candid marlin]

people can say how they play the game for teamwork and whatever but honestly people get the most excited when some new shitty valley map comes out and some random faction you'll barely ever play again

[ionic charm]

Game is boring without

[chrome lagoon]

It's nice to have more content but not when current factions aren't that fleshed out/balanced.

[ionic charm]

Yes obc

[candid marlin]

people jerk off way too much about more content

[ionic charm]

Devs do because its easier we all know this

[limpid timber]

That isn't true.
APFSDS on lighter vics might put a 40mm hole through two sides without hitting anything critical inside.
That can happen with heavier vehicles as well but those tend to have less void space and armor thick enough that secondary effects from weapon impacts are create/enhanced (DU's pyrophoric effect, tungsten fragmenting, etc)

[ionic charm]

FPS recoil bug has been in the game for 8 months

[candid marlin]

there are so many maps that need reworks, that are completely fucked balance wise or are extremely boring

how many maps just aren't played

[chrome lagoon]

And people who work on making models and coding and balancing choose to do one or the other (or both at a slower pace). I'd prefer Brits were fixed and got some more content, same for ADF, Insurgents and even TLF.

[still hull]

It’s been in game since beginning most likely but pre ico it wasn’t noticeable

[ionic charm]

Respectfully shut the fuck up, We dont need advanced armor values and penetration

[ionic charm]

No just ICO, We only knew about it a month ago tho

[candid marlin]

I did notice pre ICO some people handled MG way faster than I did

[ionic charm]

This isnt warthunder, nobody go leaking secret military documents

[limpid timber]

It isn't that advanced.
The basic separation of penetration and damage values is already enough to do it.

[ionic charm]

😴

[candid marlin]

but post ICO it's so obvious how much the fps effects the game

[ionic charm]

Yes, We all agree.

[candid marlin]

see already with realistic health system that makes no sense to me

people say this all the time right but if someone shoots you 2 times in the chest with a rifle and you die

you can't bandage that and be running 5 seconds later

[ionic charm]

1. Removes point of ICO

2. unrealistic

3. Remove point of ICO, unrealistic

4. Already in the game,( based off stamina)

5. Could work

[candid marlin]

if you die you die, there's no bandaging or magic healing irl so making arguments about realism of it doesn't make sense

if you get hit by a 120mm HE and turn into dust you're as dead as someone who gets shot twice in the chest

[ionic charm]

Ive seen health system like number 5 in games before, It works fine. But I think it would just Buff armor once again

[limpid timber]

3. Remove Sway
4. Add sway again but rename it
   rofl

[ionic charm]

Obviously if you get exploded by a mortar or arty or a 120 shell youre dead dead but do we want tank too auto take a ticket for EVERY kill

[candid marlin]

sorry but these "realistic" health systems are jokes, if you die you die

you can't go over to a dead body and complain they still have their brain intact so a bandage should fix it

[ionic charm]

1. Buffs armor and makes then ticket taking machine

2. Sure, Maybe a bit too much though

3. Yea already in game

4. Yea already in game i guess

[limpid timber]

EFT hand sway is not realistic.

[ionic charm]

Makes game armour biased

[candid marlin]

if it's immersive I just think you're out of touch with reality then

if you're immersed in something that's ridiculous and makes no sense it's a bit silly to me

[ionic charm]

Its a game who cares, I dont want to have realistic everything

[candid marlin]

Have you known anyone who's died?

[ionic charm]

??????

[candid marlin]

You can't revive someone by putting a bandage on it

[ionic charm]

Bud its a game, Stop

[limpid timber]

You can prevent death by slowing or stopping blood loss.

[ionic charm]

We dont want it to be realistic and its not made to be

[candid marlin]

Yeah it's a game, thinking it's a "realistic" by your own words

[ionic charm]

english

[candid marlin]

add lets say realistic health system, when you got shot with a tank riffle you dead, if someone shot you in a head you dead, if you trying to suppress someone with machinegun, it should be effective in term of damage you dealing to other player, revive only by medics etc etc ( optional armor system, insurgent have same chances of survival as a us soldier lol )

"Realistic"

[ionic charm]

Makes armor too OP

[candid marlin]

Ok ok not my issue here

[ionic charm]

if you die you lose a ticket, thats what we're forgetting

[candid marlin]

He said the words "realistic health system" then described something completely unrealistic

[wicked fox]

This is a non issue, PR takes 1 tx for every incapacitated and 1 additional when dead dead, so shot and give up is 2 tickets. Max starting tickets are increased accordingly ofc.

[candid marlin]

and then get out your magic medic box and heal them good as new

[ionic charm]

Why? Current system is fine

That is the same issue tho lol?

still takes too many tickets

[wicked fox]

I didnt say it need changing, just that its not an issue to adjust for it.

[ionic charm]

Yea true, sorry

Why are you trying to argue with each other specifically

[candid marlin]

balancing what out

[ionic charm]

the game???

Infantry??

I dont think health needs changing or balance

I think game should fix Bugs,,then add more fun content with moire guns

[candid marlin]

he called it a "realistic health system" and then describes a system where only certain things would kill you outright. Somehow if you get shot in the head that's more lethal than 2 chest shots despite both would kill you.

Things that kill you don't have a more or less dead scale you die when you are killed and that's what happens

[ionic charm]

Calm down

take a breather

[candid marlin]

There's no magic bandages or health box

[ionic charm]

Ok, Sorry Im not a combat medic in real life like you are.

[candid marlin]

man you don't have to be a combat medic to realise if people die they're dead

it's just common sense

[ionic charm]

Its called a game holy shit 😂

[candid marlin]

if you fall off a roof and break both your legs you can't run either and you can't bandage it

[ionic charm]

Of squad?

[candid marlin]

yeah and in this game we don't need a "realistic health system" that is in no way realistic at all

[ionic charm]

I have 1400 hours

[ionic charm]

We dont need a new one, Realistic or not

wym

huh

Dont make this about hours

1400 Is not low at all'

then say it

What do you mean

[limpid timber]

A more involved medical system wouldn't really match the pace of the game.

a medic has to be more useful than just burning the ticket and running back from the spawn

[marsh shoal]

Yeah the current system is suitable for the game dynamic as-is. Only thing I can think of is breaking out different damage types.

Like taking a non lethal fall doesn't do the same damage as being shot, and instead slows you down/increases sway temporarily or something

[candid marlin]

fall damage right now is really ridiculous

feels like about 10 feet will kill you

[marsh shoal]

Yeah invasion got turbofucked by the new units, it's way worse than the previous layers

[candid marlin]

I never really liked invasion but it's pretty laughable balance wise

It feels a bit like how the game transitioned from small AAS layers to big RAAS layers to me

it's huge whiplash to go from small infantry focused layers with 2-3 APCs and 1 RWS with caps 150 meters apart from each other

to 4 APCs/IFVs, 1-2 Tanks, 1-2 light vics and caps 300-600 meters apart

squad basically became a completely different game with most servers playing RAAS

[marsh shoal]

The voting system isn't great yeah. Maybe try to play a server with set rotations?

Idk if any invasion servers do that these days

[candid marlin]

invasion servers are usually pretty low quality

[marsh shoal]

Ask them to consider set rotations

Or going back to SquadJS voting

[candid marlin]

probably not that good of a server if they don't do rotations

with voting you get very unbalanced layouts and factions with certain maps getting played over and over

deliberately chosen layers and factions to go on that layers are always better

there are a ridiculous amount of possible layers to make now, more than you could ever play

you don't need to make it random, just pic factions that play well against each other on a well chosen layer for them and it'll be a good match

[marsh shoal]

We have something like 25k possible layer/unit combos in the voting pool for TT I think that's enough

I would rather play a few hundred balanced layers on repeat than 100k shit ones

[limpid timber]

Not always. I've played more Sanxian post-voting than before it, except when it was brand new. I see Kamdesh every few days despite people despising that map. I play Fool's Road 3 times a week and that was almost never in the set rotation before.

[candid marlin]

I'd rather play 10 balanced layers than 500 unbalanced ones

the game is supposed to be about teamwork and making decisions, no idea why people jerk off about having more maps and random shit that has no effect on how good gameplay is

[marsh shoal]

Because for a lot of the dumbasses playing this game, Squad is about more random shit

Look at the kind of mods the community plays, they won't touch anything that doesn't give them new guns

Squad is a great game with amazing potential but good lord the intelligence here is about the same as your average high school dropout draftee

[candid marlin]

invasion looks way way better

[limpid timber]

Because that's what is fun for them.
They like what they like.

[candid marlin]

why is it so bad when you can plan for the next cap

[marsh shoal]

The extra lanes on yeho RAAS all play like shit

I would take invasion 3 lane lattice over that any day

[candid marlin]

squad really is a game where giving people good tools to make plans and making the map transition to new parts because they make sense to transition to is a bad thing

[wicked fox]

Because i like rng that throws me of guard not diminishing return meta grind and nade bounces like CS

[candid marlin]

what is happening over and over in this situation? That you can plan for a cap and try something new on the cap

[candid marlin]

how many layers do you think you know where you and the enemy will meet if you drive at each other

[marsh shoal]

Even peak squad comp layers like chora aas v2 are not "solved" the same way any CS map is

[candid marlin]

so you don't change anything based on your teams positioning or where enemy shit is marked?

[candid marlin]

This really is 2 comp players talking to non comp players now

[wicked fox]

I was exaggerating

[candid marlin]

ADHD mentality of needing everything to change every time instead of just learning how to play a map

is the game really better when no one has no idea where to place HABs or where are good places to drive

[marsh shoal]

Realistically there is nothing different between solving AAS and RAAS, good fob spots are still good and bad fob spots are still bad. It only slows down rollout.

[candid marlin]

what do you think

Yes I'm talking about you

the idea that everything needs to be different everytime you play a layer even though you play it in less than 1 every 50 games

then you must know the optimal way to move and attack in every variation of every layer

you're the only player in the game to have done it

lashkar is so forgettable

wow another extremely brown desert valley map but with just less interesting parts than all the others

[wicked fox]

Exactly, i try to steer away from games that facilitate dog-like behaviour of reacting the same way to a certain impulse

[candid marlin]

there was a point where half the maps were boring brown desert valley maps

[limpid timber]

Lashkar is in the mountains.
And it has trees all over.

[candid marlin]

yeah we really needed it after having kohat, logar, skorpo

keep in mind it was put in the game when already half the maps were valley maps

[wicked fox]

Imagine complaining about maps in games like squad, what about arma? If you dont like that 1 map ig you are fookd

[candid marlin]

only interesting part of lashkar is the middle river and town

[candid marlin]

at least the map is big enough it can be split into a bunch of random parts

would like to point out valley maps are some of the most disliked maps in the game

not long after they added anvil as well

which is an even more boring, shitty version of lashkar

[marsh shoal]

Nah anvil is budget chora as long as you avoid the plateau

I think it's actually not bad on aas/skirm/tc

[candid marlin]

no clue but will they even care to fix it if they think it's hard

that I'm more doubtful of

likely, see posts all the time of people upgrading monitors from 24-28 inch to 32 and realising how easy it is to see people with a big monitor

[marsh shoal]

I would say it's probably 40/60 in them being able to fix it

[wicked fox]

I like valley maps, they are quite real life like.

[candid marlin]

graphics changes were supposed to make things fairer between players but I've only seen them accentuate problems already there

[marsh shoal]

The pitfalls of really shit AA implementation

I miss pre 2.12 tbh

[candid marlin]

before on a 27 inch monitor you could clearly see people 100s of meters away, a lot easier than you would IRL but now if people lay in bushes and shit on smaller monitors you might walk almost right up to people before realising

it makes such a huge difference it's unreal

[candid marlin]

give me V9 but with the QOL updates

the scale with the recoil and gunplay + only APCs was so good

having an extra 100 fps would also be really nice

I used to get 160+ back in V9

and that was on a ryzen 1600x instead of a 5600x

squad used to be a well optimized game that most systems could run well

that's because you're CPU bottlenecked like 99.9% of squad players

adding another 20 players to the teams dropped my fps by 30%

made helis start to powerpoint across the sky

[marsh shoal]

The game almost always plays better in 40v40

In terms of gameplay and frames

[candid marlin]

I miss not having 12+ squads every game

and yet the map sizes and distances between layers are far smaller on PR

[marsh shoal]

They had netcode made by actual devs too not glorified modders with minimal training

[candid marlin]

why not make big maps and then use portions of them to make up a layer

[marsh shoal]

Most of the area in the big maps is not really playable it's just filler

[candid marlin]

well this is the thing really, squad maps are large and shitty

[marsh shoal]

This is how mapmakers for comp tournies create maps for 30v30 and smaller

[candid marlin]

almost every map needs to be looked at and remade

genuinely having double the points of interest put in

if you compare Narva and how many features it has to Lashkar it's laughable

or to Kamdesh

[marsh shoal]

And expand POIs beyond a couple shacks in a field

[candid marlin]

my favourite POI is boris farmstead

I love a single barn surrounded by trees and field for 400 meters

[marsh shoal]

Sometimes it feels like it's literally just virus and a couple part-time texture artists who actually work on the game

[candid marlin]

people can say however much they want that having more maps and factions is better

but holy shit CS way of doing maps is a million times better

having small well made maps for the sizes of the teams and refining them to be well optimized, interesting and lots of things you can use is so much better

[marsh shoal]

I feel like this was kinda the idea with sanxian, there are some POIs there that are good + well designed. It's the layers, the whole idea of south lane, and bad/non performant textures that are the issue.

Canal town cap for example is as good as any decent compound in a pubg map.

[candid marlin]

you know they're not going to update the map though

it's so weirdly made

[marsh shoal]

Oh yeah it got fucked up royally at some point in the design process

[candid marlin]

there are so many maps that just clearly need redeisgns

somehow yeho was one of the only ones to get a redesign

[marsh shoal]

Don't forget narva where they replaced totally functional buildings with copy-paste buildings from the black coast set, I guess for a laugh?

And now they're probably gonna waste a fuck ton of time re-doing al bas and tallil based on that shitty poll when there is no way to save those maps

[candid marlin]

if they don't fix things like shooting the tire on a LAV with HE to kill it within a few shots of a 30mm

I sort of doubt they're going to actually do anything meaningful

[marsh shoal]

They'll copy paste 20 palm trees like they did for north main al bas and call it a day

Unironically I do think they could improve al bas a lot by swapping building models in the city with the fallujah ones

[candid marlin]

yeah basrah's buildings just don't look very good a lot of the time

weirdly clean

[marsh shoal]

They are cheap or free assets from the UE store iirc

Narva 4 stories have the same problem

[candid marlin]

honestly it was fine before the graphics update but they only really updated the vegetation

[wicked fox]

This does not work on a 16 square km scale, also rip fps

[candid marlin]

used to work well, much prefered it

[wicked fox]

Example of cs type fidelity in squad please?

[candid marlin]

like I said you compare a map like narva to Kamdesh

Kamdesh has shitty roads, few POIs, looking in some directions drops your fps significantly, it's ugly and looks all the same

compare it to Narva which if it were any bigger you wouldn't use the extra bits of the map most games, if it were any smaller it would lack flanking routes and sneaky places to go

it has plenty of POIs, verticallity changes, often the POIs have quite a different sort of fighting

we have large industrial open areas like trainyard or quarry which have space for vics to move around but not to dominate fights, we have a village like oru that has decent HAB positionings and again positions for vics to flank but you have to lose a lot before vics can just dominate

then we have a few caps that are quite big building centred

[wicked fox]

Ok but fidelity of narva is jack compared to fallujah

[candid marlin]

and I agree, narva would be a better map if it had more work done on how it looks and how optimized it is

the maps in squad should be updated and improved on

I think the design philosophy of taking maybe 10 of your best maps and then refining them over and over in everyway until you can't see what you could do to improve to make them more interesting is the best

[wicked fox]

Also my gripe with khamdesh is just the layout, its really grid patterny and equally spread out, it has no life in it, every village is mostly flat with 10 buildings, copy paste. But thats about it, PR had a similar themed map Bamyan that is much more natural and diverse.

And yes improving maps is of course welcome, putting new meh ones for the sake of content is waste of money and time.

[candid marlin]

right now we have so many meh maps

always adding more and people always getting excited over them

[normal tangle]

I hate kamedesh. Look at any single point and try to tell the difference from every other one. Done trying? Good lmao

[wicked fox]

The mehest of them all is albasrah, its layout is prehistoric, it was bad enough in PR after really detailed maps started coming out 13 years ago and in needs a new map from scratch altogether, no makeup will change that

[normal tangle]

Is it from the era of no vics

[limpid timber]

It isn't and it is the GOAT invasion layer.

[normal tangle]

lol Alr but like it’s so small 🤣

[wicked fox]

Fools road is close second, but salvageable with cosmetic updates. Lashkar however is a completely legit realistic map with enough fidelity to be up tp the standard. The setting is of course adghan hills and villages, there ia only so much you can do about that

Albasrah is the same size as fools road and many other 2k maps

[limpid timber]

It was a PR map, but Squad had vics when it came out.
al-Basrah would be completely unplayable if it was before vics.

[normal tangle]

I think that lashkar is fine, but there’s only one lane of attack, no room

[limpid timber]

You can attack from the mountains on Lashkar.

[normal tangle]

Yeah but your a sitting duck

Anyone in that half of the map in the valley can see you yk

[limpid timber]

Yes, but the same is true for you and you can still win the vic fight and capitalize.

[wicked fox]

It eez how it eez, you have to deal with it. If every map had the same characteristics but different colour palette its just meh

I compare basrah to CS cache, it has prehistoric quality, the longitudionally shrunk BTR because gameplay reasons makes me throw up and my ocd hurts... Good thing its getting remade 😄

[candid marlin]

could add military compounds, destroyed convoys and a ton of other things

craters and trenches, anything to make it at least a bit interesting

maybe fixing bipods causing you to fall through the map if you do it on the mountains and rocks

[wicked fox]

Or just coloring the undergrowth of the forest to brown. Never have i seen pine forest that has such smooth covering of clean green grass all over lol

If its green its usually some type of moss and ferns

[candid marlin]

just make different parts of the maps have different features

if everything has the same colour and POIs are hard to distinguish it's very very boring

[smoky rapids]

pfff, it's unplayable now

extremely unbalanced in favor of team 2 with how difficult it is to push the city

[limpid timber]

It is playable as an invasion map, even with a conventional force on defense.

[pale violet]

sucks to see that the ICO was not included in the poll made recently, asking what systems can be improved

didn't even give the option of asking the player base

i don't even want it gone, just tweaked so Squad is not so damn painful to play

[smoky rapids]

It's been tweaked and will continue to be tweaked

[marsh shoal]

pretty sure when people say "tweaked" they don't just mean visual changes

[smoky rapids]

I mean, in some cases they do. Some people are mostly frustrated with suppression blur, a purely visual effect 😛

[warped jacinth]

doesn't it affect your stability?

[limpid timber]

blur doesn't

[warped jacinth]

I meant suppression as a hole. I thought it did in fact fubb with stability.

[limpid timber]

it does, but the actual blur is purely cosmetic

[warped jacinth]

Yar.

[smoky rapids]

Which is why I specified "suppression blur"

[warped jacinth]

Listen up fubbass. You should be reading my mind. I shouldn't have to write full sentences ffs.

Why do I have to read everything and think before I type?

unacceptable

/s

[sacred light]

ok

[vestal turret]

What does /s mean?

[finite swift]

That he's being sarcastic

[warped jacinth]

Sarcasm. Tone cannot be conveyed through text well and not everyone speaks English as a first language.

The amount of times someone gets shit on because they said something people don't like only for them to say "dude I was being sarcastic" is astonishing. 2 People can say the exact same sentence and one might be sarcastic and nobody can tell the difference through text.

[vestal turret]

ahhh alright

[tender nacelle]

Skill issue

[kindred adder]

You didn't put /s here tho...